|
Author
|
Topic: Biblical arguments opposed to dispensationalism
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
A word on the church and it's distinctions;
In the New Testament the original word is used for the Jewish synagogue (Matt.18:17), a group of believers (Acts 2:47), a group of believers at a specific location (Acts 13:1 et al), the Law Courts of the time (Acts 19:39) and an unruly mob (Acts 19:410). In these last two references, “assembly” is the Greek word ekklesia, an unruly, unregenerate mob, or any group called together could be called a "church”.
The Church of the Firstborn
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
The Church which is His Body
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
The Church which is Israel
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek! For they shall inherit the earth.
The above statement of Matt.5:5 is “church” specific. Members of the “church which is His Body” will never inherit the earth. But the church, Israel, has always been destined for the earth. See Gen.12:1-3 et al.
Rom 15:8 And I say, Jesus Christ has become a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,
Heb 3:6 But Christ was faithful as a Son over his own house; whose house we are, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
In the above passage from Hebrews, the writer uses the word “we” in the phrase whose house we are. Just because he uses the word “we” does not give us license to include ourselves. The writer is specifically talking to Hebrews, not “we” Gentiles who live in this dispensation of the Grace of God. The Lord Christ was faithful as a Son over his own house; The Lord had a ministry to Israel as Moses had foretold in Deut. 18:15 and “we” today, are not included in that particular house.
Mat 10:5 Jesus sent out these twelve, commanding them, saying, Do not go into the way of the nations, and do not enter into any city of the Samaritans.
Mat 10:6 But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as you go, proclaim, saying, The kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
In the above verses, we find no such statments governing the church which is His body and are not therefore at liberty to fabricate the OT kingdom of Israel's hope and calling into our hope and calling which is in heavenly places.
The mother of our Lord was told “church” specific truth:
Luk 1:31 And behold! You shall conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David.
Luk 1:33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there shall be no end.
The Lord Christ will reign over the house of Jacob on the earth, this truth relates to the church, Israel. It must not be spiritualized to mean anything else. The word of God means what it says and says what it means.
Here are some “church” specific things which are about us in our “church”, the Body of Christ, given to us by the ascended Christ through His messenger for us today;
Our blessings are “in the heavenlies”.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ;
Our condition is holy and without blame but our location is “before Him”, that is, “in front of His Face”;
Eph 1:4 according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him
The church which is His Body is seated in the same place Christ is seated;
Eph 1:19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the ones believing according to the working of His mighty strength
Eph 1:20 which He worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead, and He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies,
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us
Eph 2:5 (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),
Eph 2:6 and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Yes, there are universal, or non dispensational truths in all of God’s Word which are indeed applicable for all of God’s redeemed, but we must beware, there are passages in the NT which are “church” specific and cannot be applied to us today. It is the apostle Paul who warns us of the shame and disapproval of those who do not rightly divide God’s Words, please compare the following;
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.
2Ti 2:15 Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
Before Paul tells Timothy that all scripture is God-breathed, he warns him to rightly divide that Scripture.
IP: Logged | 
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
dear timspong, while I was reading your Topic, I felt that you needed to distinguish between “unconditional promises” which the LORD made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ephraim/Manasseh-Israel, and Judah.
these are the “unconditional promises”:
a multitude of people shall come from you, as the sand of the sea
kings shall come out of you, including the King of Israel
you shall possess the gate of your enemies
you shall come up out of your graves while among the heathen
you shall possess the land of Israel forever
(I seem to be missing one, but these will do for now)
these “unconditional promises” have to be fulfilled by the LORD unilaterally, “irrespective” of whether Israel/Judah is bad or good. “By Myself have I sworn.”
Paul calls these the promises of race, the birthright promises, or tribal promises to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
But then there are also the promises of grace, to which pertains the Law and the “conditional” promises, “choose you this day whom you will serve”, “believe in Jesus and you shall be saved.”
these, interestingly, also do not depend on whether we are “good or bad” but on whether we are willing to “believe in Jesus and be saved.”
But the point is, you seemed to be mixing “unconditional promises” (also called “racial promises”) which the LORD must fulfill because He unilaterally swore to do these by Himself, and the “conditional promises” (also called “grace promises”) which both Jew and Gentile still had to choose independently. Race versus grace, Paul talks about it.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
timspong
Advanced Member
Member # 5240
|
posted
Gods word is Spirit and eternal and transends all contexts. His Words may have given to different people and at different times. But all His Word is eternal and is equally relevant to us today. At its lowest level of understanding you could (possibly)look at Gods Word as "Divided", but as understanding increases the divisions disappear and it all becomes one Word to one people.
I started a new thread re: 2 timothy 15, lets continue over there as it is very much the same discussion.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
Tim,
Let me ask you if it is my feeling, or your feeling, that God has written to us as being important in the Bible?
Better:
Answer me why then, does the Holy Spirit give us the words dispensation if there is no truth to it?
Better still:
Why is the church of the one body given the instruction to rightly divide the word of truth when no one else in all of Sctitpure is so given?
Being a dispensationalist, I can say that at no time is any verse disguarded or set as less value to another verse, but I do tend to acknowledge who God is speaking to, when this was, and what is the end goal of that understanding God is giving us.
Going through the mountain? Well, I can't make the Biblical reference to that, can we try another?
How 'bout heaven or earth?
In the dispensation of promise, it was made known that Abraham's seed would inherit the land and by them all nations of the earth would be blessed. Is that a fair statement?
Hard on this is the introduction of the law. Is this new, or not new?
If it is not new, then please say how it is the same. If it is new, then we see an adminstration of God being worked out. Dispensation/Administration = the same thing.
When Christ came, He preached their kingdom was at hand. Was this a new adminstration, or was their kingdom at hand before Christ came? If this is new, then it is but a further outworking in the dispensational plan of the ages.
When gentiles were used to provoke Israel in the Acts, was this new, or not new? If it was new, then it is evidentual of God's adminstration being brought forward.
When Israel was set amidst the nation, and the mystery of Israel's blindness in affect, was that new, or not new?
When the apostle was then sent to the nations, and that we would hear, was that new, or did the nations have their own salvation in heavenly places being preached prior to this event?
The Holy Spirit, speaking by the chosen vessel Paul, makes the declaration that a dispensation is given...the dispensation of the mystery...
So why tempt God in disputing that God does have order in His household, that He has in fact and in truth made distinctions and used the word dispensation to identify His administrations thereby?
Dispensation, in it's simplest terms, means to keep an household orderly. It is household administration.
An orderly householder doesn't just stand at the door and throw everything inside so that it is all mixed up in a big pile. An orderly household keeps everything in its place, not joining together what is not to be joined together.
Dispensationalist also do not join that which God has made seperate. Dispensationalist practice rightly dividing the word of truth.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
Well said Tim.
The greatest strides down the pathway of God is from a bended knee.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
timspong
Advanced Member
Member # 5240
|
posted
Hmmm Gentlemen/Ladies, I think we are heading for a breakdown in communication here.
"Let us reason together". I propose the following analogy that may make my particular view clearer. I know this analogy is may be a little overused, but let’s say for a moment that the Word of God is a mountain.
We know that Jesus is at the top (or indeed the entire mountain) and as we gain a deeper (or higher?) level of understanding we gradually work our way towards him. Now, in my personal walk I try to find Jesus in every chapter and verse of the Bible. In this way I feel I understand where the scripture is leading me, not where it happened to come from, or who wrote it for whom. It is all directly relevant to me and to where I am supposed to be going.
I personally feel that dispensationalists tend to run around the base of the mountain and tunnel through it and examine each orifice like an archaeologists looking for clues in long dead tombs. I have no problem with this; except for the fact that I don’t feel it is Gods will for them to call people down from the mountain to look at their latest findings and then leave them in the tomb without a light to get back to where they were.
I am not saying I am any higher up the mountain than them; the only difference is the direction in which I am going.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Heb 13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.
Note that this is from Hebrews and therefore addressed to the Jews in the first Century, but is very relevant to me today and anyone else seeking the Lord.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Well, oh accuser, do you have anything more to spew than broad strokes without quotes, or just furtive recondite pecking? I must be doing something right, for it didn't take long for the evil one to send his own to attak and accuse me, LOL. I am for Eph4.3, and will not waste my time defending myself, so go on and build yourself up. You are the coolest ever.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
You epouraniois are the one who is wrong and very presumptuous indeed to connote your flawed interpretation of scripture with the Lord God, for it is your fallacy and flawed eisegesis which we are standing against with God's Word.
You study for a couple of years and WOW a new revelation full truth and understanding.
In your arrogance and self-absorbed ego you place yourself against the basic tenents of the Christian faith and centuries of Apostolic doctrine. You place yourself against the very Words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the writings and teachings of Paul.
Your writings are diametricly opposed to the clear teaching of scripture and a source of confusion and deception for any not stablished in the Word of God.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
It does't matter what you believe Tim.
It doesn't matter what I believe.
What matters is that we acknowledge His understanding, and that is what we are given, His understanding. That is what His words reveal, our utter lack of understanding and need to acknowledge His understanding.
In His understanding, by His own words, He works in dispensations, and awaits the dispensation of the fulness of times, as do I.
To even attempt to use God's words to prove God wrong smacks of confederacy with the evil [one].
Just because we are permitted to read God's other children's letters by no means grants us the rights to discard our own letters and place our names upon those other childrens letters. Their letters have their name on them, and ours have our names on them.
In your own house, how well would it go over if you told someone they could not have their letters or the contents of them, that you were taking them?
How well do you think it goes over with God who is Just and Perfect and True?
Can He possibly be please when any of His children reject His unique gift to them and instead covets His other childrens things?
What Scripture tells you what is the hope of your calling?
IP: Logged |
|
|
timspong
Advanced Member
Member # 5240
|
posted
I believe that Old Testament events are relevant for us to this day as real life metaphors for the teaching of a deeper understanding of the Character of God, our Salvation through Christ and to understand the nature and extent of our battle against our propensity to sin.
2co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
2co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
2co 10:5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
2co 10:6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
The OT basically teaches the extent of our sinful nature and points towards the only possibility of salvation in the expectation of Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection. OT Jews are saved by the same belief in Jesus Christ that we have. The only difference is there belief was in the Messiah “to be” and ours is in Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
I believe that Everything ever written in the Bible is directly related to Jesus. He is after all The Living Word. Simple eh!
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
A "dispensation" is an era of time during which man is tested in respect to obedience to some definite revelation of God's will. As many as seven such era's have been identified, and it is often helpful to look to scriptural meaning in light of the particular dispensation in which the scripture portion was written:
1. dispensation of INNOCENCE: from creation to expulsion from the Garden of Eden.
2. dispensation of CONSCIENCE: from the expulsion under the Adamic Covenant...man was self-accountable to do good and abstain from evil...to the endpoint of complete human degeneration and degradation ending in the Judgment of The Flood of Noah.
3. dispensation of HUMAN GOVERNMENT: the declaration of the Noahic Covenant after The Flood (Genesis 8:20-9:27) included inauguration of human government, to include judicial taking of human life. This era proceeded into "the times of the Gentiles" and won't conclude until the Second Coming of Christ.
4. dispensation of PROMISE: from the call of Abram (Abraham) to the giving of the Mosaic Law (applies exclusively for Israelites).
5. dispensation of LAW: from Sinai to Calvary.
6. dispensation of GRACE: era of acceptance or rejection of the saving grace of Jesus and the subsequent manifestation of the fruit of salvation: good works...to the Second Coming of Jesus.
7. dispensation of THE KINGDOM: from the end of the era of GRACE and previous to the "eternal state".
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
The Greek oikomia is made up of the word oikos "house" and nemo "to administer", "to deal out", "to distribute".
Are you seriously setting forth that God does not adminster His own truth by stewards?
2Tim 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Tim 4:4
And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I normally do not read threads about tearing down God with His own words, and this case is no exception, but I would point out some very basic issues, issues which may be of too strong a meat for those not yet weaned, nor able to realize themselves as such.
Do you not believe God despences His truth by faithful servants? Do you believe that the preaching of Noah is truth for today, that we all need to get into the ark before the flood comes, or has that dispensation long since past?
When you goto the pharmacist, do you want the pharmacist to exercise proper stewardship, only despencing the right amount of the right thing to the right people? or is it proper to just mix everything together and say all applies equally to all people in all times for all purposes?
Do you not know that there is a time for everything under the sun?
I ask these in particular because the word stewardship and the word dispensation are of the same pedigree - intamintly grounded together as one. The faithful steward does not open the mail and change what he does not like, but faithfully dispenses that which he has been sent to steward in the administration in which God has seen fit to employ him.
A messenger of God is called an angel, put an 'e' 'v' in front of it and you have an evangel. The word sent is the word apostle. God has sent His apostles to steward His dispensational purposes.
Dispensation is a God-Breathed word. Where ever the doctrine stops being a feel good doctrine based upon the milk of the word, and begins to teach the strong meat of truth, people will inevetiblily come to denounce what they either are against, or do not understand, unwilling to admit they have more to learn in the latter and unable to admit the former at all if they have deceived themselves into believing they have plumbed the Bible in the former. The former do not know how much hate they carry within themselves. Let us pray for their understanding and acknowledgment, that they might come to know Him.
2Cor 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Cor 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Cor 4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Cor 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
"The Greek word rendered dispensation is oikonomia and refers to the act of administering. By the figure Metonymy, the act of administering is transferred to the time during which that administering is carried on" (How to Enjoy the Bible, Dr. E. W. Bullinger).
Oikonomeo
Luke 16:2.
Thou mayest be no longer steward.
Oikonomia (R.V.)
Luke 16:2.
Give an account of thy stewardship
3.
Taketh away from me the stewardship
4.
When I am put out of the stewardship.
1 Cor. 9:17
A dispensation (of the gospel).
Eph. 1:10.
That in the dispensation of the fulness.
3:2.
The dispensation of the grace of God.
3:9.
The dispensation of the mystery (R.V.).
Col. 1:25.
According to the dispensation of God.
1 Tim. 1:4.
A dispensation of God which is in faith (R.V.).
Oikonomos
Luke 12:42.
That faithful and wise steward.
Luke 16:1.
Rich man, which had a steward.
3.
The steward said within himself.
8.
Commended the unjust steward.
Rom. 16:23.
Erastus the chamberlain of the city.
1 Cor. 4:1.
Steward of the mysteries of God.
2.
It is required in stewards . . . found faithful.
Gal. 4:2.
Is under tutors and governors.
Tit. 1:7.
Blameless, as the steward of God.
1 Pet. 4:10.
Good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
Outstanding Dispensations
(N.B.-Some may overlap, and more than one can run together at the same time.)
- Innocence. Adam unfallen. Paradise enjoyed.
- Adam to Noah. The Fall to the Flo od.
- Noah to Babel. N.B.-Some features of Genesis 9 remain unchanged.
- Babel to Abraham. The Nations and the Nation.
- Abraham to Egypt The Exodus marks a critical change.
- Exodus to Sinai. The covenant 430 years after the promise.
- Sinai to Jericho. The forty years wandering.
- Jericho to Said. The land entered.
- David to Christ. Here there are subdivisions which we have not noted.
- The Earthly Ministry of Christ, His Birth, Life, Death, Resurrection, Ascension.
- Pentecost to Peter in Prison, Acts 2-11.
- Paul's First Ministry. The Gentile a wild olive contrary to nature.
- Paul's Prison Ministry. The dispensation of the grace of God and the dispensation of the Mystery.
Before attempting to explain or expound any particular portion of Scripture, the following interrogation, which is but the recognition of the fact that there are a succession of dispensations observable in the Bible, will prove a valuable guide.
* Is the verse in question in the O.T. or in the N.T.?
* If in the O.T. is it in the Law, or the prophets, before or after Abraham, before or after David, etc.?
* If in the N.T. is it in the Gospels, if so which, for each gospel has its own peculiar viewpoint?
* If in the Acts, is it in the period covered by Pentecost (Acts 2-12) by the early ministry of Paul (Acts 13-19), by the interval (Acts 20-28) or by the Prison Ministry of Paul?
* Most objections to the teaching of the Mystery, and most of the confusion that is so evident, are the result of continually harking,/back to epistles before Acts 28, as for example, a believer may appear to be following and endorsing your teaching concerning the constitution of the Church of the one Body in Ephesians, only to betray confusion by quoting Galatians 3:27-29.
- The Resumption of Pentecost. The seven churches of Rev. 2,3.
- The Day of the Lord. The Apocalypse.
- The Millennial Kingdom and Revelation 20.
- The Period between the end of the Millennium and the Great White Throne.
- The End. The goal reached. God all in all.
IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
dear brother epouraniois, you write quote:
James 5:16-19
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. {Jam 5:16-18}
We may think that that was alright for Elijah, but I couldn't do a thing like that. This man, this man knew how to pray. But why? Why could Elijah shut the heaven, and then open the heaven?
Well, he did it, not because he was a man of tremendous power, but he did it because he knew the word of God. And he knew God's plan, something of it, and something of God's promises. And all he was doing was praying to claim those gracious and wonderful promises that were his. Deut, the 11th chapter:
And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil. {Deu11:13-14}
The corn and the oil and the wine have additional spiritual significance, as well as the former and the later rain. God speaks to us on multiple levels, so there is always more to any verse than is possible to fully plumb, but I stick to the subject of prayer.
The subject is the same for us, and the question is then, what is it the Bible instructs us in the present time to be praying for?
good question, epouraniois. I find myself praying for people to be healed and saved and I find myself praying for myself, to carry me through this and that, to protect me here and there, to let me live and not die, to grant me joy and peace and kindness and good humor today, and things like that?
But I think if I was out there on the street endangering my life more by talking and singing about Jesus of Nazareth among the general population, I might be praying something differently.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
dear sister HisGrace from Canada, what a wonderful collection of scriptures you and the Holy Spirit put together in one of your posts above. isn't this one of the most precious pieces of it:[quote]through His name whosoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins.
No ifs, ands, or buts about it, [b]guaranteed.
"whosoever believes in Him" = "shall receive remission of sins".
how simple, and yet how wonderful, is it not, Amen?
May we always identify God as being the LORD God of Israel, and not some other, named or unnamed God (if they be gods).
BORN AGAIN in the USA
IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
Hyper-Dispensationalism, also known as Ultra-Dispensationalism, is the name given to Dispensationalists who believe Paul was the first member of the body of Christ. The word "Hyper" does not imply anything negative; instead, it only designates those who take Dispensationalism further than Traditional Dispensationalists do. Among Hyper-Dispensationalists, there are two major divisions, commonly known as the mid-Acts viewpoint (which takes its name from the belief that Paul became the first member of the body of Christ during the mid-Acts period), and the Acts 28 viewpoint (which takes its name from the belief that only Paul's prison and Pastoral epistles, which were written after Acts chapter 28, apply directly to the church in this present dispensation of grace).
There is an ongoing debate among Dispensationalists as to which books of the New Testament were written to Christians today. The outcome of this debate is directly associated with when the present church began. Traditional Dispensationalists believe the church began sometime between the birth of Christ and Acts chapter 2, and that the majority (if not all) of the New Testament was written to the church today. By contrast, most Pauline Dispensationalists (also known as Hyper-Dispensationalists or Ultra-Dispensationalists) believe the church began with the apostle Paul at some point during the book of Acts. Consequently, most Pauline Dispensationalists believe that only some or all of Paul's epistles were written directly to Christians today. Among Hyper-Dispensationalists, those in the Acts 28 category don't believe the present church began until Acts 28 (or shortly thereafter), which means that only the epistles Paul wrote after that time apply to the church today. The Opposing Views category is for sites that address the debate between these differing viewpoints.
Progressive Dispensationalism teaches that certain promises concerning the New Covenant are currently being fulfilled by the church today, in the dispensation of grace. These promises initially began to be fulfilled when the Lord established the New Covenant with the believing "remnant" of Israel. Upon His ascension, the Lord began ruling on the throne of David in Heaven. Subsequently, the prophesied salvation of Gentiles began to be fulfilled in this present dispensation of grace, when the apostle Paul was sent to the Gentiles. At that time, believing Gentiles also began to partake of the New Covenant promises.
Traditional Dispensationalism maintains a firm distinction between the Church and the nation of Israel. Many Traditional Dispensationalists may also teach that there are certain Pauline "truths" that are unique to Paul's epistles. While most Traditional Dispensationalists do not place undue emphasis upon Pauline doctrine, there are always exceptions.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
Luke 1:
1: Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2: Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
3: It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
4: That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
Acts 1:
1: The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2: Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
1 Peter 1:
1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Peter 1:
1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 1:
1: Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4: I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5: That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6: Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10: Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11: For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12: Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13: Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14: I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15: Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16: And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19: For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20: Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21: For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22: For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24: But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25: Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26: For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28: And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30: But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
The writings/Books of the New Testament were written for and to Believers.
3 John 1:
1: The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.
2: Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
3: For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth.
4: I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
5: Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers;
6: Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:
7: Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.
8: We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth.
9: I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
10: Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
11: Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
12: Demetrius hath good report of all men, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true.
13: I had many things to write, but I will not with ink and pen write unto thee:
14: But I trust I shall shortly see thee, and we shall speak face to face. Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Greet the friends by name.
2 John 1:
1: The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2: For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
3: Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
4: I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
5: And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6: And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7: For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8: Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9: Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10: If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
12: Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
13: The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
1 John 1:
1: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2: (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3: That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4: And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
John 1:
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
__________________
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
One should be cautious in the theological school of ultra-dispensationalism, that we not seek to establish a Pauline-dispensation, and relegate the Words of Christ to exclusively a Jewish "kingdom-only" interpretation.
John 14:
26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Acts 1:
3: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5: For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6: When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7: And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The Holy Ghost came as per the promise of the Master, and He indwelt the Church and led them in truth, and the message preached was consistant with the Pauline Epistles. 3000 brethren came to Christ as Peter preached his first sermon.
Acts 2:
36: Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41: Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 10:
34: Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36: The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37: That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38: How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39: And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41: Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42: And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44: While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45: And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46: For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days
Peter brought the Gospel to the gentiles, the same Gospel which Jesus preached and which Paul preached.
John 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Romans 10:
8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1 Cor. 15:
1: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2: By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4: And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7: After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8: And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9: For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10: But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11: Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12: Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13: But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15: Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16: For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18: Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19: If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
2 Peter 3:
1: This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4: And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5: For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11: Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12: Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13: Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14: Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15: And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17: Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18: But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Acts 8:
32: The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34: And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35: Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36: And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38: And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39: And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40: But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
Were Peter, Phillip, John, etc. preaching a different Gospel than Paul?
Eph. 2:
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16: And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18: For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19: Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20: And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21: In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
It is by faith alone in Christ alone that the lost are redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb.
If one is truly saved through heart belief, and not just lip-service confession, then the Fruit of the Spirit will be manifested. Please note that one of the Fruit is faith, and it is this manifestation in the sinner's heart which saves them. Faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.
__________________
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
timspong writes quote:
My only adgenda is to help people from stumbling in their walk. Not everyone here is a seasoned Christian veteran and may well not understand how dispensationalism theology (or any radical theology for that matter) can oppose what is taught in their local Church. This could cause a tremendous amount of conflict in their walk. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
I have been a Christian for 25 years and still do not think in terms of "dispensationalism"; the average new or relatively new or even seasoned Christian has no idea what "dispensationalism" is, nor do most Christians care what it is.
so I seriously doubt that any "serious conflict" would arise in anyone whether they know about "dispensationalism" or not.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
It sounds like you and are on the same page. Who knows we could become close friends before it is said and done. ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
betty
Heehee - miracles do happen,TG, because we certainly have had our differences in the past.
IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
It sounds like you and are on the same page. Who knows we could become close friends before it is said and done. I sure have enjoyed my great emails from GramaJo. She and Pastor Jim both have been a great blessing to me.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
I also believe in the pre-tribulation rapture and also don't believe in the replacement theology. However, I believe the church will be raptured out before the tribulaton in order to fulfill God's covenant to his chosen people. The Tribulation is all about fuflfilling prophesies from the OT.
God has never turned his back on Israel. He made a covenant with Abraham and once he makes a covenant it is binding. They were disobedient to God time and time again, and turned their back on Him. It will take over 4,000 yrs.to be fulfilled, but Israel will be gathered from the four corners of the earth during the tribulation to reclaim their land. The following are scriptures showing God's faithfulness to Israel.
2 Kings 13:23
But the LORD was gracious to the people of Israel, and they were not totally destroyed. He pitied them because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And to this day he still has not completely destroyed them or banished them from his presence.
1 Chron. 16:9-23 Sing to him; yes, sing his praises. Tell everyone about his miracles.
Exault in his holy name; O worshipers of the LORD, rejoice! Search for the LORD and for his strength, and keep on searching.
Think of the wonderful works he has done, the miracles, and the judgments he handed down, O children of Israel, God's servant,O descendants of Jacob, God's chosen one. He is the LORD our God. His rule is seen throughout the land. He always stands by his covenant-- the commitment he made to a thousand generations.
This is the covenant he made with Abraham and the oath he swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,to the people of Israel as a never-ending treaty: "I will give you the land of Canaan as your special possession." He said this when they were few in number, a tiny group of strangers in Canaan.
They wandered back and forth between nations, from one kingdom to another. Yet he did not let anyone oppress them. He warned kings on their behalf: "Do not touch these people I have chosen, and do not hurt my prophets."Let the whole earth sing to the LORD! Each day proclaim the good news that he saves.
2 Timothy 2:8-10 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained. Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
I called my Pastor this morning to see where we stand. He said he dosen't preach either one.
But, like me he believes in the pre-trib rapture and disagrees with the replacement theory.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
timspong
Advanced Member
Member # 5240
|
posted
I am a Born Again Christian who belongs to a Carismatic non-denomincational Church in Lagos, Nigeria. I am not an anointed Pastor or Teacher but I Love the Lord and I Love to dwell in His living word.
My only adgenda is to help people from stumbling in their walk. Not everyone here is a seasoned Christian veteran and may well not understand how dispensationalism theology (or any radical theology for that matter)can oppose what is taught in their local Church. This could cause a tremendous amount of conflict in their walk.
I think it might help if credentials/beliefs are listed in signatures. After all teachers and Preachers are anointed for a reason. What give a person here a higher authority to preach/teach than a Local Pastor?
dispensationalism theology may on the surface line up with scripture pretty well, but that is all you will ever achieve, a surface knowlege. The sheer depth and power of the Word will be very difficult to attain from such a complicated and sandy foundation.
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly(read ego); and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. -Romans 16:17-18 KJV
I honestly do not mean any one any harm or want to cause offence, but the Lord has seen it fit to make me passionate about this particular issue.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by timspong:
If you are in confusion ask your pastor/vicar/priest/ to clarify.
I am not one bit confused, because I have listened to believers who have studied eschatology for years and everything they say lines up with the scriptures.
IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
I am tired of all these endless websites being pulled up, based on personal opinion only, showing no faith statement or credentials to back up their own personal agenda.
Is their main purpose in life to tear apart the Bible and people's beliefs, or are these people true believers who delve into the Word for further enrichment?
IP: Logged |
|
|
timspong
Advanced Member
Member # 5240
|
posted
Sorry I posted the above without the pretext.
It seems that the dispensationalism theology is taught a lot on this site and I just wanted to explain to people (who may not have come across it before) that this theology could easily be considered as "complicated", "extreme" and definitely not in line with the teachings of the vast majority of Christian Churches.
The first post in this thread was quoted from answers.com and the link below will give you a better idea of the context of the dispensationalist theory.
http://www.answers.com/topic/dispensationalism
I have no problem with dispensationalist views being discussed, but they should have some kind of warning so as not to confuse or steer a brother/sister "off course". I don't think you can mix and match this theology and it may well interfere with your walk with Christ if you belong to a "mainstream" denominational Church. If you are in confusion ask your pastor/vicar/priest/ to clarify.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
timspong
Advanced Member
Member # 5240
|
posted
"Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." (Deuteronomy 6:4 NIV) "But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children — with those who keep his covenant and remember to obey his precepts." (Psalm 103:17-18) "I the LORD do not change." (Malachi 3:6) "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." (James 1:17)
Jeremiah 31 says that the New Covenant will be with the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah"
Romans 11 speaks of the "olive tree" (Israel) as having branches broken off (unbelieving Jews) and branches grafted in (Gentiles). The broken branches can be grafted back in, however, if the unbelieving Jews were to come to faith in Jesus: "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. (Romans 11:23)
Galatians 3 indicates that there is no "Jew or Greek" in Christ, but only those with faith in Christ, etc.
Deuteronomy 28:58-64 indicates that the promises of God were conditional. "If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book... the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone."
Joshua 21:43-45, 1 Kings 8:56, Nehemiah 9:7-8, etc., indicate that God kept his conditional promises to Israel
Jeremiah 31:31-34 indicates that though God did not break his promises to Israel, Israel broke the Covenant with God: "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake..."
Dispensationalism portrays a God with changing covenants and requirements that may not be part of a single plan for salvation.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God." (Matthew 5:9)
Dispensationalists de-emphasize (or even discourage) human efforts to achieve peace due to the belief that we are living in an epoch in which an increase of war and famine is inevitable. Some dispensationalists have taught that international peace institutions such as the United Nations may be paving the way for the reign of the Antichrist.
"No one knows about the day and hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. . . . therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. . . because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." (Matthew 24:36, 42, 44) "It is not for you to know the dates or times which the Father has set by his own authority." (Acts 1:7)
Some dispensationalists draw up purported timetables for the fulfillment of prophecy. For example, dispensationalist Hal Lindsey wrote a book with the title The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon.
"Remember that at the time you were separated from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility. . ." (Ephesians 2:12-14)
The Apostle Paul describes one plan of salvation open to Gentile and Jew alike.
Covenant theology is one popular alternative to Dispensational belief.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
