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Topic: Study on 1 Cor 12:2-3
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epouraniois
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Ps 32:1
. <<[A Psalm] of David, Maschil.>> Blessed [is he whose] transgression [is] forgiven, [whose] sin [is] covered.
Phil 3:8
But, to be sure, I am also deeming~ all to be a forfeit because of the |superiority of the knowledge of *Christ Jesus, my *Lord, because of Whom I forfeited *all, and am deeming~ it to be refuse, that I should be gaining Christ,
Concordant Greek Text Sublinear -ultraliteral English-
Phil 3:9
and may be |found in Him, not having my righteousness, *which is out of law, but *that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is outfrom God onfor *faith:
Phil 3:10
*to know Him, and the power of His *resurrection, and the fellowship of His *sufferings, conforming~ to His *death,
Phil 3:11
if somehow I should be attaining intoto the outresurrection *that is out from among the dead.
My life is certainly DIFFERENT now. Two years ago, you could't pull me out from under the water unless it was to go sailing, being a dive master and natnl champ sailboat racer, and living in a stones throw, literally, from the beach on a barrier island; today, I often forgo a sailday or dive for the study in the word:
Which leads me to say along with you, that I totally agree, and couldn't agree more, the depths of the Word of God is unplumbible, ever pregnant, and it takes more than just reading to glean a glimpse of the mind of God, it takes research, a good Concordance and the learning of grammar, and love, and longsuffering prayerfull patience, for there is and can be but one goal, that I may know Him. Most assuridley, I know of no time in which I haven't been afforded a furthering towards His understanding as it pours forth rich and new gleanings upon searching through a verse, a word, an idea or concept. Many many times I will end up going in a completely different direction by the Lord must be showing me, different than my intentions, and I believe this is the Lord's leading. In Ephesians it says it called washing by the water of the word. Make me clean Lord, makes us clean in the water of your Word.
Bless.
Eph 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
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timspong
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Sure I believe as you do that the Bible is a finished book and all the words are all there. However, revelation to greater understanding is an ongoing process. I have read scriptures many times over and occasionally God gives revelation to a whole new level of meaning. This is unlikely to happen until current understanding is put into practice and it certainly cannot be done by our own intellectual efforts.
The shear joy of reading the Bible is being able to better understand the loving, never-changing nature of God and to become better equipped to serve him here on earth.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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epouraniois
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WEll,
If you were in school and the teacher said to you that this completes this assigment, would you then think to yourself that there must be more to this assignment?
The word in the Greek for complete is plēroō.
Paul distinctly says,
Col 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to plēroō the word of God;
Col 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints
Through the apostle Paul is given the very dispensation *administration* of the mystery, and was given to him for YOU, to complete the word of God.
Are we then to believe this is given to Paul for you nations to complete the word of God, or are we to not believe it?
For me, if it is written, then I believe it even when I do not understand all things. I may never understand all things, but I can believe they are true nonetheless.
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timspong
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Sorry, I just don’t see anything in those scriptures that would indicate a declaration of no further revelation. On the contrary Col 1.26 is all about continuous revelation for all Christians (saints) as God gives us spiritual discernment of the Gospel.
Paul is also saying that those who are not saints (natural man) cannot fathom the mysteries of God and the Bible for they neither know nor receive it. They could read the Bible from cover to cover and know every word in it. However, they will not receive it until they become truly saved.
When I first became a Christian, I avidly read the Vernon McGee commentary “thru the Bible”. It is a great series, but it did reveal to me the fallibility of using worldly logic to understand scripture rather than revelation. I have since found certain views of his to be heavily flawed and I thank God for giving me discernment so as not to stunt my spiritual growth.
There are many levels of understanding in scripture, only revelation can peal back the layers. Even when we are saved, God will not reveal more than we are able to correctly comprehend. The absolute brilliance of the Bible is that it is a living word and can communicate on all levels including those that have yet to be revealed. Worldly logic can only pollute biblical understanding and for some, pride and intellect is very destructive and can lead to a heretical doctrine.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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epouraniois
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The apostle, meaning sent one, stewarded God's message prayerfully, telling us that God opens the eyes of our understanding, and in the same prison epistles that state God gave him a new revelation which had been hid in God from ages of time and from generations of men tells us that what the apostle wrote was God completing His message to the world.
Eph 1:18-19
Col 1:25-26
This declares there will be no further revlation. Paul's words complete the word of God to the world.
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timspong
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I think it is great to have enthusiasm for studying the Bible. The basic message is easy enough to understand. However, a deeper understanding should come through Spiritual revelation not from our own reasoning.
God provides the path to greater understanding, not us. It is important for us to keep an open mind so that we do not disqualify true revelation. After all, the truth is the truth and is never changing, although our perception of it can.
The trouble with waiting for revelation is that we must be patient and put into practice that which we have learned before God will reveal greater understanding. He is after all the ultimate teacher so why would he give anyone more knowledge before they can turn what they already know into wisdom?
The endless debates about translations etc may interfere with true revelation. The living word transcends mere letters on pieces of paper. After all, understanding is a matter of the heart not the mind.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
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epouraniois
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Dear Brothers and Sisters IN Christ.
Truth unto all who seek it through the LORD Jesus Christ.
I hope it alright for me to add to the original post. I would point out that we see here, the transference from being addressed to the Jew first, to the gentile believers at Corinth. This actually does not end until after ch14, being 3 chapters which address this one subject. It is important to bear this in mind. I will only skim ch12 here:
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
Now, the word “gifts” was not in the original, so lets remove it. Next we can see that Paul is speaking to Gentiles here; having spoken to the Jews first, as was the custom. And he is speaking to them concerning spiritual things, or that which is spiritual. Gifts are included in spiritual things, but not the subject. Paul is using a figure of speech, which is why the writers supplied the ellipsis. The figure of speech is the words “I would not have you ignorant”, and it has a reference point:
1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
There is the “figure” again, [I would not…ignorant] only in 1Co 10 he is speaking to those who are of Israel, and for two chapters Paul tells them some of their duties, things they should do. You will notice in 10 & 11, that there are feasts mentioned, and gentiles never participated, but he speaks of them because the gentiles were not under the law, and to let the gentiles know what he is talking about as he speaks to those who are of Israel, loosely called the Jews. So the Holy Spirit uses consistency and pattern, applied to each, Jew and Gentile.
Now, the translators inserted the word “gifts” because it is a subject contained in the chapter, but the subject is more broad, as it has to do with spiritual things. “Gifts” are one of those things.
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
These believing gentiles, had been following many different idols. Corinth had been a Pagan fort, where they would pick up every god a passerby might entreat them with. They were in need of much love, positive understanding, and much much discipline. It was by the grace of God they received it.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
The spirit of God here, has no article and should not be capitalized, and means the new nature of man cannot call Jesus accursed, and no man can say Jesus is Lord but by revelation. This contrasts the giver from the gifts, and the new man cannot recant that Jesus is Lord. This new man is the gift, and will not call giver, Messiah Christ Jesus, accursed.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
This verse correctly capitalizes the word “Spirit”, indicating the giver, which is the same “God” in the next 2 verses. There are differences in administration, but they are from the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
In v7, we can see that the manifestation is to profit man. The only way to profit man is to magnify God. The only way to magnify God? Hear His Word contained within the pages of the Bible.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
Here, was the list of offices, or “operations” of the Spirit in its outworking: Wisdom first, then knowledge, next faith, healing, working of miracles, prophecy [teaching], discernment of spirits, languages, interpretation of languages. That is 9 different operations the Spirit was using at that time. We know from all Scripture that the first three gifts are told us oft. Wisdom from the Lord, then Knowledge from the Lord, and Faith from the Lord. Then there were some special gifts to be used in the commission set forth in Acts 1:3-6, and at the end of Mark 16. To bring Israel to repentance in acceptance of Christ as King, and receive the Kingdom of Heaven preached at the temple mount. That the Lord would use 'another tonuge' to provoke Israel to jealousy with those which are not a people is wholly prophetic, Isa 28:11, Deu 32:21...
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Now, there is a lot of emphasis on speaking in tongues today, but if you will notice, it is pretty much on down the line. Its far less desirable that Wisdom, Knowledge, and Faith. Its not one of the first ones.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
This is where trouble begins for us, they are members of one body, not to confuse the one body which is His body in Ephesians, but keep in mind the subject and the object of this writing:
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
The word “spirit” should not be capitalized, there is no article there, for it is not the giver, it is not the person. it has the idea of meshing these with it. It does not mean the gentile becomes a Jew, rather a gentile may partake of the spiritual blessings that are strictly Israel’s. It is better read:
having one new nature, we are all identified, or baptized, into one new body, whether we be Jew or Gentiles…, and have been all made to drink into one spiritual fountain [see your CB for ref notes]. People try to take this verse and make it into the Holy Spirit baptizing us into gifts, but when we take the Greek and examine it, all that fades away. I want to explain it further.
This verse, when we examine it, tells us that those who have that one same spirit, have a bond that demonstrates they are of one assembly at Corinth. And, yes, God can, if He chooses, dwell with in a believer, but that is not the subject of this verse. The subject is that each one of the groups, whether it be in Thessalonica, or Ephesus, they were bonded together in the self same spirit of the new man, or believer which is the gift of the Holy Spirit, which runs through the chapter. The word “baptized” here, means identified because of the fact that they had this new nature wherein Christ might dwell in the Spirit [the giver]. We are asked to view this with our spiritual eyes, which is the gift of God as well. So here, we are shown that, whether Jew or Gentile, they were the same in that they had the self same spirit of a new man in Christ. When we get to Romans 11, we see that there is a difference, and that some were graphed in un naturally for a purpose. Lets go to Ephesians for a moment:
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
These verses are for remembrance. Notice: “in the flesh”; this reminds them they had no hope. “At that time” only Israel had hope in God, the nations were without promise, and were with out God in the world. In the Acts period, Paul was “bound” for Israel, so we can see the dispensational disadvantage of the nations until the final rejection of the kingdom by Israel clearly, as in Ephesians, Paul is the prisoner not of Israel, but of the nations [gentiles], but now we have hope “in the flesh”.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
By the time we get to Eph 4, and this is important, because the Spirit here, is the giver. It is not the new nature of the believer:
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Again, the “Spirit” is the giver. My, how that contrasts with 1st Co 12:13. Now, Israel had spiritual things, a spiritual bond; even though they were not a spiritual people, and I bring this into view because usually when you graphed a branch onto a tree it is to bring forth better fruit on that which was grafted in. But this was not the reason God graphed them in, as they were graphed in un naturally. They nations were not expected to bring forth any fruit. No, they were expected to cause the tree – Israel- to bring forth fruit through anger and jealousy.
Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
Here, Paul is expecting them to help take up a collection at Jerusalem for the needy, the carnal things, not only because it is true of the needy, but because it is true that they are graphed in. The verse defines what duties were meant by graphing in the Gentiles to this tree of Israel. It does not mean it gave it life, Israel was alive at that time and could have brought in the kingdom by repenting during that period of time. They had the blessings of the knowledge of the Lord, but they had no blessings as being teachers to the Jews, as they were graphed in, not expecting to bear fruit. They were graphed in un naturally.
Gentiles were not brought in for their own sakes, they were brought in to provoke Israel to jealousy, provoking Israel to take a stance and take their rightful claim in the kingdom. The kingdom was not being offered to the Gentiles at that time. Paul makes that plain in Romans 11 & 12.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
Notice that God “set” the members, and we had that earlier in the diversities of the offices. Now, after the rejection, Paul never talks like this again, but people want to say it is the same as being in the church which is His body, but the Bible doesn’t indicate any such thing, as all are equal after the Acts, but here they are distinctly separate, having different gifts one from another, some greater than others; [which is why the word “church” is used in the plural before Acts 28:28, and never afterwards].
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
Notice too, that there is inequality of the members running all of the way through these verses, making them diametrically apposed to the great equality taught after Acts, where every member is equal in the church of the one body in the dispensation of the Mystery.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
This is the possessive case in the Greek, and does not mean they are actually members of His body, but rather a possession of His, a channel, and another diametrical difference between these people and those of the church which is His body where we are a part of His being. Here, they are “members in particular”, separate members. The next verses are a list of them:
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.
In the law they were told not to covet, but some things are desirable, and verse one of the next chapter tells us what that is. It is through divine love, by which we honor the best gifts Wisdom, then Knowledge and faith for teaching, which is another word for prophecy. We should read that next chapter often. The word “charity” means “divine love”.
Now, in the Acts, where this letter was written, they have a list of gifts, which is very similar to the list in Ephesians. Also it is very, very different, as after Acts the list no longer includes these gifts. Before Acts 28:28 the commission was to go:, “And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following”. They completed the commission at the final rejection. The order for today is to guard the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, & this Spirit is not here on earth, but far above all heavens. Adam was asked to guard this same unity, for there is nothing but unity in Him.
Gifts of the Spirit are non dispensational, but some specific gifts are dispensational. Our gift is Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, our hope is far above all where He sitteth.
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
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peh
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Good to hear from you, Born Again, and as always, appreciate your spirit.
Excellent point about "everyone" calling Him Kurios, and that if the verse is to be applied to all then all were calling Him by His proper title by the Holy Spirit.
Seems unlikely on the surface, doesn't it, as we know not everyone would have been filled by the Holy Spirit, since at the time He walked the earth, the Holy Spirit had not yet "come upon" even His followers.
On the other hand, Jesus, Whose Spirit He is, was there and we know even demons cried out just because Jesus was near physically, so possibly the people called Him by His proper title under the guidance of the Spirit that was there in Jesus, and not because they themselves were filled.
Yet, since there were still those calling Him accursed, you could also believe they were doing so in spite of and in resistance to the Holy Spirit in Jesus.
In answer to your question, yahsway, you surely know the answer better than I do but I take it to mean that they were, as the verse indicates, idol worshippers and ignorant of the true God.
Good points, HisGrace!
Grace and peace to you all!
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
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BORN AGAIN
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that was a good question, Peh. Peh wrote: quote:
Ok, but how do the two bits of information Paul gave so far, ie, that they once were idolaters and what one calls Jesus, how does that make them any less ignorant about spiritual gifts?
I think your analysis, with Gill's help, really was good.
Also from Peh and the Holy Spirit: quote:
So, it would seem that the most important thing Paul wanted them to learn here was that some had been deceived into following after idols and therefore were ignorant of spiritual things, having much to learn about the workings of God, and for others that the proof of ignorance is in calling Jesus anything but the Son of God, the Most High God, and the giver of the Holy Spirit as well as of His gifts.
And this: quote:
Gill says, "the unconverted Gentiles, who knew nothing of Jesus but by report; which report they had from the Jews, his enemies; and by that report he appeared to them to be a very wicked and detestable person, who was put to death by the means of his own countrymen, was hanged upon a tree, and so to be counted and called accursed".
quote:
So what do you think?
Me thinks that was very good and insightful. I like your writing a lot, Peh.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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dear sister Peh, I will look at your Topic more later, but you write[quote]3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
I just wanted to say for now that the English word "Lord" is always in Greek the word "kurios".
What I found amazing was that everyone in Judah always addressed Yahshu-Jesus as "kurios", apparently without exception.
Now, if the following be true:
1 Corinthians 12
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord {Greek, "kurios"}, but by the Holy Spirit.
What now? Was everyone addressing Him as "kurios" by the power of God?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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yahsway
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peh, what does Paul mean when he says you "were" Gentiles? Thanks and shalom
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HisGrace
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Yes, Paul is reminding them of their evil condition before when they were miserable under superstition and idolatry, carried away by its craftiness. They had absolutely no knowledge of God.
Now that they are believers. he is telling them that it is necessary to test and discern the nature of Spirits, to be certain that they are truly of God.
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peh
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The study began because verses 2 & 3 of 1 Cor 12 seem barely related at all with the first verse and neither did the two verses seem to have anything to do with the spiritual gifts spoken of so much in the remainder of the chapter. Since the sense of continuity was not there, it appeared necessary to study on these two verses and find out why they are there.
Verse 1 begins this section by saying: Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Then Paul writes: 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
What does their having been idolaters and whether or not a man says Jesus is Lord or the other have to do with the giving of spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit?
Of course, we could say that no one who is an idolater could have the Holy Spirit and therefore couldn't receive the gifts from Him. Neither could any one call Jesus accursed who had the Holy Spirit.
Ok, but how do the two bits of information Paul gave so far, ie, that they once were idolaters and what one calls Jesus make them any less ignorant about spiritual gifts?
I looked these verses up in John Gill's Exposition of the Bible. He indicates that the word "gifts" is not actually found written in verse 1 but was added by translators, probably because the rest of the chapter is so manifestly about spiritual gifts.
Now if verse 1 were written in that way it would read "Now concerning spiritual, brethren, I would not have you ignorant."
For it to make sense in English we could safely add either "the" before spiritual or "things" after, as easily as the translators added "gifts" and then the verses following make perfect sense since they speak of spiritual matters.
And we can see that Paul begins to tell them of spiritual things by reminding them that some of them were once ignorant of the truly spiritual, having been deceived by serving false gods, and even, Gill says, "the unconverted Gentiles, who knew nothing of Jesus but by report; which report they had from the Jews, his enemies; and by that report he appeared to them to be a very wicked and detestable person, who was put to death by the means of his own countrymen, was hanged upon a tree, and so to be counted and called accursed".
Gill writes that he thinks that Paul probably referenced this in particular because some of the Corinthians might have "called him (such) before their conversion" or else, he goes on to say, Paul spoke these words to "the Jews, who not only, whil(e) Jesus was living, blasphemed him, but continued to call him accursed after his death".
So, it would seem that the most important thing Paul wanted them to learn here was that some had been deceived into following after idols and therefore were ignorant of spiritual things, having much to learn about the workings of God, and for others that the proof of ignorance is in calling Jesus anything but the Son of God, the Most High God, and the giver of the Holy Spirit as well as of His gifts.
Now, what do you think?
(By the way, to access John Gill's Exposition online, the url is http://bible.crosswalk.com/. Type in the verse you want information on, click on the "Include study tools" box, enter the version of the Bible you want, and click "Find". Once you have the verse up you'll see the study tools list on the right, click on "Gil" for John Gill or any other on the list and see what was written about your verse in the new window.)
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
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