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Topic: Christians nearing a new unity
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peh
Advanced Member
Member # 4446
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posted
bygrace posted, "Doing this uniting as voluntary action to me, would be quite different."
There is the crux of the dispute, I think. What is "uniting" to you may be only "working alongside of" to me, or possibly to gramajo.
I believe it is the same as the evangelist or teacher who believes every son of God must be as he/she.
The Spirit distributes to each as He wills, which is pretty clearly saying that the gifts are diverse.
However, those who walk in serious doctrinal error do, as HFHS and others have so clearly stated, need to come out of the error. We might differ in the method, but we agree on that.
We also differ in understanding of what degree of extraction from error of others is required of us. As someone said earlier, preaching to the choir may not be the most effective method. It does sharpen us though, so it seems prudent to read and heed the posts that sound to some ears as harsh and judgemental. It also seems it would be wise to read the "softer, gentler" posts carefully. Balance is needed. That is becoming more clear by the day, both here and in "real life".
bygrace posted, "I don't see how we could effectively show that what we believe is real to us, if we are working with those that do not believe as we do."
If we are working with someone, we are in a position to talk to them but if we are in our church and talking about their doctrine, we are not in the position to talk to them at all.
I guess that is one of the difficulties I see in the "calling of names" in posts, with condemnatory comments following. Are any of the ones named going to see the post? Are any of those who hold the erroneous doctrine going to read them and go "Ah, now I see!" Maybe one or two will, and that is good. However, it seems there just has to be a better way to get the message across to those in error.
Don't you think we might better serve the purpose of the Lord and His Kingdom by sharing with each other the doctrines we see and believe to be wrong in ways that will not stir up the flesh or defensive attitudes in the readers? For information and not condemnation or expounding on someone's errors, but bringing out the error so all can see and heed and use the info to speak to those who are in error at the opportunities given by the Spirit?
If we refuse to respond to what we might find offensive to ourselves, we can stay in the Spirit and therefore more clearly give the view we believe to be correct, always remembering that our words are 'set on fire' by that most unruly of our members.
I've got to go but i'm not sure this is finished.
Peace to the brothers and sisters
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
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bygrace
unregistered
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posted
I think the situation of work and public schooling (for those who have no other means to educate their children) would not count as "uniting".
This is "unavoidable",
The issue at hand is that which is "avoidable".
Doing this uniting as voluntary action to me, would be quite different.
I personally do not utilize the public school system, only beacuse I have the oppurtunity to take another path. Many are not afforded this so this is not their fault, or first choice? And some have the fortune of a public school system that is not so very corrupt.
You can control very little in your environment at work, but you can control and do have a choice as to what organizations you join in unity with or support outside of work or school.
God knows what we can and cannot avoid.
bygrace
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redkermit
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Member # 4059
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posted
I don't mean to go even further off topic here, but...
When asked if we should join together for good causes with other groups, the response was we should not be yoked together with unbelievers. At first thought, I was like, yeah, that's right, I agree with that.
But, what about our public schools or our jobs? We (I know not everyone does, but in general) send our kids to public schools every day. Public schools are certainly full of and generally run by unbelievers. Or, God is not allowed in the public schools, anyway.
Then I think of work. Most of us are not blessed to be able to work for a Christian company. So, are we being yoked with unbelievers when we work? I know my company offers same-sex benefits, so in essence, am I not condoning that by working for this company?
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Listen Online:
www.wmuz.com
www.997flr.org
Posts: 604 | From: Michigan | Registered: Nov 2004
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Gramajo320
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Member # 4667
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posted
As I mentioned in my latest posting God gave me the gift of discernment and I use that discernment while reading everything.
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Gramajo320
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
No problem I was not sure after your last short post just above mine, if you had thought I was making a comment directed at your post and I wanted to make sure you knew I wasnt that was all.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Gramajo320
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posted
Homeschoolers,
My very first posting in this thread was to Phillip James as I wanted him to know that I totally understood what he was saying in regards to helping the poor. Then I went on to post about where I worked and the goals we had, working along with others from all denomination churches and non-denomination churches to obtain the goal. I cannot emphasize enough that there was no doctrine whatsoever in our work of helping the poor - it was entirely all about helping the poor and that's all. Why that should bother anyone is totally beyond my comprehension. God knows our hearts and faith and that's all that matters, and God certainly blessed our work. The poor and needy that were helped were quite blessed also. Jesus Christ teaches that we're to help the poor and needy and we're to do so with love, kindness, compassion, empathy, and respect.
Anyway I have no issues with you over any church or any doctrine whatsoever and I don't understand why you would think that I do. As human beings we certainly are not totally infallible and we certainly are not 100% right all of the time. There most definitely is not any perfect man or woman on this earth therefore I look to no man or no woman. God is the only one I look to. The only perfect and infallible and totally 100% right person is Jesus Christ, God, and the Holy Spirit.
I go to a great non-denominational church where the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached every week. We all enjoy it so very much. I also have to say that so very long God had given me such a love in my heart for all people of all ethnic origins and religions and I cannot refuse that love that He has given me. Along with that love God also gave me discernment to know the difference between right teachings and wrong teachings and I use that discernment all of the time. The Holy Spirit leads me and where I'm led to I go.
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Gramajo320
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Peh says: quote:
At the same time, I grow more convinced by the day that, short of divine intervention, none of us would be ABLE to walk in Truth, ever! I appreciate those whose posts show that they are aware of this also.
And I am ever more convinced that God alone can bring out the Truth within a soul so that it is presented in such a way as to woo the soul to Himself. I'm terribly grateful for His loving forbearance towards me, and am also grateful to see it exercised towards others.
(bold by me)
Linda says: Amen Peh!!!! I absolutely agree ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
God uses each of us I think... when you speak something that is like...."Yes!" "Exactly" for me in my understanding and it lines up with scripture, that IS God who has worked through us HIS body.
If we are getting understanding and wisdom and it is scripturally sound it did not come from man but from God.
Only God can speak to our spirit the things of God.
PS: I am so very thankful for you too!
And I tell you that over the years here there is not one who I have not been thankful for, even those who I have vehemently opposed because even then God is working and some of the greatests debates have taken me to seek HIS word and not mans and HE has blessed me so very very richly by each and every one of these people that we have fellowship with here. God is an Awesome God.
PS to GrandmaJo: I hope you did not think I was makeing personal reference to your testimony I was not. You have no need to defend your ministry to me. I know that we have... you and I perhaps unsettleable diferences over Catholicism, and maybe even some other doctrinal issues, but I do know and see that you have a servants heart.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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peh
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Member # 4446
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posted
HFHS posted, "Is God not always teaching the things of God?"
To which I would say, "Yes, indeed He is, and to all those called by Him, regardless of their current "doctrinal" philosophy." "I once was blind" was not necessarily written only about those who BC didn't know the Truth.
Please excuse the personal references, but I was saved in a Southern Baptist church, but soon was gifted with tongues, though the church did not teach it and in fact, I believe it is a SB doctrine that tongues are of the devil, or at least false. I also attended for several years a church which taught strongly on various doctrines, of which many were not mainstream Christianity based. Many of the people who knew me before I began to attend the latter church told me it was a "cult" and one in particular refused a tract I handed him, and ostentatiously threw it in the garbage, so sure was he that I was going straight to hell for attending the meetings.
I have not followed the path to perdition, by the grace and mercy of God, and certainly not because my doctrine was always pure and undefiled. In fact, I'd not be willing to say even now that the doctrines I continue to hold as truth are altogether Truth. Now we know in part...and like many of you, I long for the day when I will know Him as He is. In the meantime, I think we are all correct to a certain degree, for instance, I greatly appreciate and applaud HFHS and others on the forum who post strongly concerning error and the need for those in error to "come out of her".
At the same time, I grow more convinced by the day that, short of divine intervention, none of us would be ABLE to walk in Truth, ever! I appreciate those whose posts show that they are aware of this also.
And I am ever more convinced that God alone can bring out the Truth within a soul so that it is presented in such a way as to woo the soul to Himself. I'm terribly grateful for His loving forbearance towards me, and am also grateful to see it exercised towards others.
Prayer and seeking Him seem to be the way He has chosen to release His children from darkness.
At the risk of sounding "smarmy", let me say that the longer I stay on this Forum, the more grateful I am for each of you. For you make me think more deeply, question more fully, and express more clearly what the Father is showing me daily, either through your posts or from other sources, but surely increasing my good understanding by what you say and how you say it.
May the Lord richly bless each of you, my beloved brothers and sisters.
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
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SoftTouch
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Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
If I embrace those who teach that homosexuality is ok, then I embrace the enemy wheter he is using a Christian or Godzilla to speak his lies. If God says homosexuality is abomination and you say it is anything but abomination it is not you who speaks but the enemy. And you can apply that to any other thing that is taught that is contrary to God's word.
If God's word says there is one mediator and you embrace more than one and venerate her to the level of Christ, then you have embraced the enemy and if I embrace you in fellowship and works so have I.
If I teach that one walks contrary to scripture and does God's works I lie.
And here is something about the poor... if you preach the gospel to them so as to deliver them out of the kingdom of the devouer you might make a difference.
AMEN and AMEN!!!
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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bygrace
unregistered
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posted
Ok.
bygrace
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Gramajo320
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Member # 4667
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posted
I stand with Peh's posting. Also I do what God has called me to do and that calling is helping others which I've been doing for many many years and all of the praise, glory, and love goes to God and that is as it should be.
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Gramajo320
Posts: 2385 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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bygrace
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posted
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) standing in agreement with your post HFHS.
This solidifies it for me.
bygrace
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Gramajo320
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posted
This administrative building consists of offices.
We were there to work at our job the same as any one else would work on their jobs. We could and did witness after working hours, my witness being the gospel of Jesus Christ. Also helping the poor is an everyday occurrence - not just at holidays, a day, or a weekend and they definitely weren't "left to fend for themselves for the rest of the year." They were helped in absolutely every area that they needed help for as long as was necessary until they could successfully and totally support themselves.
We helped them reach that goal. My original posting was to Phillip James just to let him know that I understood what he meant by helping the poor. Jesus Christ wants us to help the poor and he wants us to have love, kindness, respect, compassion, empathy for others and to remember a saying that goes like this "But for the grace of God go I." At any given point in time any one can fall on to hard times. One never knows from day to day. Anyway it's about helping the poor and not about any man made doctrine. It's just totally about Jesus Christ telling us to help the poor with basic needs and that is what we did. It should not be difficult for you to understand. I know that our work was right in God's eyes and that is all that matters. He alone knows our hearts and our faith and our desire to follow His teachings.
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Gramajo320
Posts: 2385 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
quote:
I guess the question remains should we join together in unity with other beliefs? even if for a good cause.
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
2 Peter 3: 11 ¶ All these, then, being dissolved, what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts?
12 waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt;
13 and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell;
14 wherefore, beloved, these things waiting for, be diligent, spotless and unblameable, by Him to be found in peace,
15 and the long-suffering of our Lord count ye salvation, according as also our beloved brother Paul—according to the wisdom given to him—did write to you, 16 as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, among which things are certain hard to be understood, which the untaught and unstable do wrest, as also the other Writings, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye, then, beloved, knowing before, take heed, lest, together with the error of the impious being led away, ye may fall from your own stedfastness,
quote:
As Texas stated earlier, will the unbelievers see this as it is ok to believe anything as long as you believe in something?
Probably, but also a little leaven leavens the lump.
quote:
When do you decide never to bring up doctrine?
I do not know how you can separate Christ from doctine. God gave doctrine that we would be his people and he our God; if we are believers and have the mind of Christ doctrine is written in our hearts - How do you separate God from His Word or His Spirit? Is God not always teaching the things of God? Are not our very existances to be testaments of HIS Doctrine, which is held in the WHOLE of scripture? Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WOrd that preceedeth from the Father God. EVERY WORD. If that is not what doctrine is I dont know what doctrine is.
I am just curious as I have not personally worked outside my own faith, so this is all new ground for me.
quote:
I don't see how we could effectively show that what we believe is real to us, if we are working with those that do not believe as we do, and operating under "thier name". Would it seem to outsiders that you stand united in thier beliefs if you are working in unison with them?
I agree, but not only that, when we walk contrary to scripture, we hurt those who see it because we teach that what God's word says does not realy matter.
You cant be united in spirit unless you are united in the same spirit. The Spirit of God does not speak contrary to God's written word. If men speak contrary to the written word, the speak in deception or misunderstanding or confusion, but non the less when they speak it they speak it out of the flesh and not the spirit and not BY HIS spirit. That includes me, or you or any other man period.
If I embrace those who teach that homosexuality is ok, then I embrace the enemy wheter he is using a Christian or Godzilla to speak his lies. If God says homosexuality is abomination and you say it is anything but abomination it is not you who speaks but the enemy. And you can apply that to any other thing that is taught that is contrary to God's word.
If God's word says there is one mediator and you embrace more than one and venerate her to the level of Christ, then you have embraced the enemy and if I embrace you in fellowship and works so have I.
If I teach that one walks contrary to scripture and does God's works I lie.
And here is something about the poor... if you preach the gospel to them so as to deliver them out of the kingdom of the devouer you might make a difference.
Jesus taught us to take care of the poor among us....in the kingdom and preach the Gospel to the poor that are not in the kingdom, so you could bring them into the provision of the kingdom. Jesus did not tell us to go out and teach the world that God could provide them with food for a day or a holiday weekend, but they would have to fend for themselves the rest of the year.
We put band aids on symptoms and ignore the source and call it God's work! That is to our shame because here is something about God.
Whom he sets free is free indeed!
We dont know this because we are not free and we do not live in the Kingdom and we haven't since perhaps 300 something AD.
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Gramajo320
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posted
Our administrative office was called Spokane Neighborhood Centers and we operated under the umbrella of Catholic Charities. The total emphasis was and is one of providing services that I named for the poor. Absolutely no doctrine is entered into it. We each had our own faith and believe me our faith was and is very real to each of us who worked there. Each of us did not in any way compromise our faith at all. In working toward the goal needed we followed Jesus Christ's teachings of helping the poor and we thought of His parable of the good samaritan. It's not difficult to understand that it's just about following Jesus Christ's teachings of helping the poor and not about any doctrine. Doctrine does not even enter into it whatsoever.
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Gramajo320
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bygrace
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posted
OK, back to where the conversation started, I guess the question remains should we join together in unity with other beliefs? even if for a good cause.
As Texas stated earlier, will the unbelievers see this as it is ok to believe anything as long as you believe in something?
When do you decide never to bring up doctrine?
I am just curious as I have not personally worked outside my own faith, so this is all new ground for me. I don't see how we could effectively show that what we believe is real to us, if we are working with those that do not believe as we do, and operating under "thier name". Would it seem to outsiders that you stand united in thier beliefs if you are working in unison with them? These are questions that have burned within me this afternoon with study.
Maybe there is a bigger picture here that I am missing?
I am trying to look at it from an unbelievers point of view...not someone grounded in the word, who would not be swayed anyway.
![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif)
bygrace
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Gramajo320
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posted
Peh,
God bless you and thank you ever so much for your posting. You truly understood that my posting to Phillip James was only about my experiences while working in the administrative office for Catholic Charities and my knowledge of how they along with all other denomination churches, non-denomination churches worked together toward their goal of helping the poor and needy in our city. There was and to this day is so very much love, compassion, empathy, and understanding shown by all who worked together to reach their goal. Again I emphasize the true fact that no doctrine whatsoever entered into this goal of helping the poor. I enjoyed working with and knowing everyone I worked with and also getting to know ever so many of the people that were helped. This work continues year round and it is so needed in our city.
I've also worked for state and federal agencies as well as the non-profit agencies. I truly enjoyed each of my jobs and my favorite jobs were those working for non-profit agencies because of being a part of helping all of the people who needed it.
A note to you, Bygrace, I too thank you for your apology and I also accept it.
A note to Phillip James I look forward to your response.
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Gramajo320
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bygrace
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posted
Peh writes: and perhaps, just perhaps, your zealousness has overbalanced you a bit to the scholarly side?
You may very well be correct on this Peh, I will think and pray on this. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif) thanks Peh for understanding where I was trying to come from...
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peh
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posted
bygrace, your response was well and lovingly said. Though I took no offense, your apology is certainly accepted. I appreciate your humble response very much.
bygrace posted: quote:
Paul also urged believers not to be partakers or partners with deceivers (Eph. 5:6-7).
I understand your point and even the passion behind it in posting this, but I am still not certain how seeing Christ at work in ones whose doctrines we cannot in good conscience accept is "partaking" or "partnering" with deceivers. After all, BC we were all doctrinally unsound and surely we were accepted anyway by someone in Christiandom.
I suppose loving them and not the doctrines and speaking the true gospel whenever allowed is what my spirit proposes. However, I must say it is apparent that some take harder lines and I cannot say it is not, for them, from the Lord. In your case, it appears you have a love of the truth that is offended by the "deceit" of wrong doctrine. I am the last one to say that is "wrongheaded".
But I would say, and hopefully, it is more than just my opinion, that there seems to be far less of brotherly love displayed in Christianity overall than of scholarly integrity.
Now it is no doubt excellent to have a balance of both. I am short on the scholarly side, and perhaps, just perhaps, your zealousness has overbalanced you a bit to the scholarly side? I'm only surmising and not trying to tell you anything, please don't take this in any way as a rebuke.
In any event, I am appreciative of your response.
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
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bygrace
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posted
Peh,
Thank you for your input, as I have stated before that we all need correction from the brethren, I appreciate you caring enough to do so.
Let me start with an apology to Gramajo, for the offense if she took any. I do not wish to demean her caring spirit for the Catholic Charities.
I was however concerned, given that Philipp James in an earlier response did seem to attack softtouch, and I saw the post by Gramajo as a defense of him... If this is in error, and I have misinterpreted it, I do apologize.
I do have a tender area of my heart regarding Catholics, While the works can be a mile wide, the spiritiality is an inch deep, and far too many have died not knowing the truth.
Yes, I understand Gramajo wasn't speaking of doctrinal errors...But that is why I brought it up. I think we should. Philipp James has been on the board defending his faith, so I shall defend mine.
As far as the comment of the other thread, your are correct Peh, and I withdraw that statement to you Gramajo, asking for your forgiveness as that was not the subject at hand. You are trying to extend kindness to Philipp James and that is quite the Christian way. I ask also forgiveness Peh for offending you as well...This was not the intention and I have learned a new lesson as I I do each day ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'm sorry to have misinterpreted your response to PJ - Gramajo.
This is something that explains my zeal in this matter:
Paul also urged believers not to be partakers or partners with deceivers (Eph. 5:6-7). Accordingly, he renounced secret and shameful ways and urged believers to mark and avoid deceptive teachers. This vital element of contending for the faith and exposing deception is not practiced by many in the body of Christ today. In fact there are many parachurch ministries that embrace Roman Catholicism as a valid Christian denomination. As a result, the church has given the enemy free reign to sow tares among the wheat (Mat. 13:25). Many churches have more tares than wheat and thus reflect a picture of the world rather than a sanctified sanctuary of believers.
Bygrace
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hardcore
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posted
Gramajo ...
Is the gospel presented to those that are being helped with their physical needs?
hc
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peh
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Member # 4446
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posted
bygrace
your post to gramajo caught my attention and, with all due respect, I would have thought since you apparently know that all in your life is "bygrace" you'd have recognized that her post speaks of her personal experiential knowledge of Catholic Charities, and given her the benefit of "grace" in recognizing her words are not about doctrine.
She specifically states " No doctrine even enters into it while they are working together toward the goal of feeding the poor, providing shelters and also homes for the homeless, providing clothing, shoes, coats, etc." (my emphasis)
While feeding, clothing, and giving shelter to the poor is in no way equivalent to bringing them the "good news" gospel, it is, as Jesus said, something that can be done whenever possible for the poor.
I should think that the recipients probably understand that what was done was done in the Name of Jesus, especially if there were nuns or priests in attendance, since most people in this country recognize their distinctive dress as having to do with God.
If not, then perhaps the message was lost in the works. But I think we can agree there were good works being done for the poor, can we not?
So far as I can see, that is the totality of her post, and has nothing to do with the doctrinal errors of the Catholic church. As far as saying you'd thought she would have "learned something" from another thread, well, to me that just sounds rude.
This is my opinion, of course, yet I think I too have the Spirit of Jesus at work within.
Your statement about Catholic doctrine being idolatrous is true but, as for gramajo "defending" unBiblical practices, I don't see that in her post at all.
So far as this one post is concerned, at least, your accusation is false. I'm sure you didn't go there for that reason, but the outcome is the accusation is false and was made anyway.
I know this post may not be agreeable to you, and though I wish no offense, I felt I must make this point at this juncture.
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
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bygrace
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posted
Gramajo,
I am curious...You seem to "embrace" all religions.
Do you ever consider more than what is on the service? Do you ever question doctrine? I thought you would have learned something in the other thread. I am sadened to see you defend those that tear down the true gospel of Christ.
I understand that you may just want to express your kindness to all, while this is very welcomed, it should only be a step to help show them what Jesus truly did. I don't know what you know about the Catholic religion, but there is so much that is corrupt and idol. Do you not know their practices? If not, you should do some research before you defend them.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
bygrace
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Gramajo320
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posted
Phillip James,
I have worked for non-profit agencies and one of them was Catholic Charities. They have such true compassion, respect, and empathy for the poor and have done ever so much good for the poor and needy here in our city. There are so many different services they offer and they do not just help catholics. They help people of all denominations and non denominational churches, born again believers, and non believers. Also all of the other denominations and non-denominational churches help the poor and needy in our town as they have true compassion, respect, and empathy for the poor too. This helping the poor is an on-going thing all year long.
Before Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays arrive
the catholics, all other denominations, and non denominational churches all work together toward one common goal, and that goal is to follow Jesus Christ's teaching of helping the poor, they do this during the time of year that is by far the most difficult time for the poor in our city. They've done this for years and it's always successful. They think of Jesus Christ's parable of the good samaritan. Their work is most assuredly Jesus Christ centered
and their love, respect, compassion and empathy for the less fortunate knows no boundaries. It truly is wonderful to see all of their love, respect, compassion, and empathy at work. I loved seeing it and working in it. It was a wonderful
experience for me and all of the others involved.
No doctrine even enters into it while they are working together toward the goal of feeding the poor, providing shelters and also homes for the homeless, providing clothing, shoes, coats, etc.,
providing any piece of furniture, appliances needed, providing people with eye glasses,
car repairs for the older cars that tend to break down so easily, bus fare for the transit system, medical and dental care, help with prescriptions, help to find employment, help to get re-trained if that is necessary, help to fill out the paper work for financial aid to go to college, special classrooms for the homeless children, the list could go on and on.
Believe me It is all Jesus Christ centered.
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Gramajo320
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Good Preaching SoftTouch.
God bless you,
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I stand with Softtouch that ecumenism for any purpose even a seemingly worthy purpose if it brings together in unity a church group that lacks Biblically sound doctrine with a church group that has Biblically sound doctrine is not good.
I do not believe that unity of Spirit can exisit where unity of doctrine is not present, and a little leaven does indeed leaven the whole lump.
Thank you Sis and Amen!
Phillip,
Can there be Unity of the Holy Spirit with those who accept a homosexual lifestyle as being ok? And worse yet, to ordain them as ministers?
Can there be Unity of the Holy Spirit with those who say that other religions are valid paths to God?
Can there be Unity of the Holy Spirit with those who would say that Salvation is earned by works and sacraments (thus denying the sufficiency of Christs atonement)?
Can there be Unity of the Holy Spirit with those who preach a watered down gospel and ignore the issue of Sin and Repentance in order to tickle the ears of their members?
Can there be Unity of the Holy Spirit with those who would practice wicca and goddess worship (yes, this is happening in one sect of a particular denomination).
What does God tell us to do with such as these?
Ephesians 5:10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
I could go on, but I don't have time. I hope you see the point here?
My agenda? To Strive Keep the Purity of God's Holy Word in tact! Not to Compromise for the sake of a false unity.
Jude 1:3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Phillip James: It seems to me that the one slandering here is you. You have slandered Softtouch.
I do not see that Softtouch has slandered anyone she has posted of an eccumenical group that is forming a coalition.
We can all form our own opinions of this group based on the article.
Someone did not comment on the article but commented on the posting of it in the first place and that comment was:
quote:
That is pretty bad when we start attacking a spirit of love and goodwill. As I recall that is something we learn from the Bible. Remember I Corinthians 13?
To which Softtouch replied with her post about the dangers she sees in this kind of ecumnnical coalition.
I do not see how that is slander of this group.
Further, you imply that she has some agenda against this group, when you cannot possible know her heart and what her agenda might be, but you did not in the spirit of love as her either to share her agenda or her motivation. You simply attacked her motives.
I stand with Softtouch that ecumenism for any purpose even a seemingly worthy purpose if it brings together in unity a church group that lacks Biblically sound doctrine with a church group that has Biblically sound doctrine is not good.
I do not believe that unity of Spirit can exisit where unity of doctrine is not present, and a little leaven does indeed leaven the whole lump.
If you have some problem with Softtouch's or anyone else's subject matter then by all means do debate that; but, do not come in here attacking and slandering people because you disagree with the subject matter.
This thread is about the ecumenical movement of Catholic and Protestant groups into unity; you are welcome to discuss the merits of that being good or bad all day long, but you are not welcome to come in here and attack our sister's person and falsely accuse her of slander or imply that she has some sort of less than godly agenda in her posting!
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Philip James
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Hello SoftTouch,
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
[QB] 2 Corinthians 6:14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
1 Corinthians 10: 21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
Why are you linking these passages with a story about a bunch of christians coming together to work with each other in a a spirit of charity?
quote:
There are Many Churches now days that deny the very deity of Jesus Christ. Unity can not be had at the cost of doctrine.
Indeed! And while I can not speak for the other churches, you can be sure that the catholic church will not compromise its doctrine and would cease to have anything to do with this 'christian' group if it began to proclaim anything that in any way denied the deity of Christ; or if it began to act , in any way, contrary to the dictates of the Faith. However, nothing in your original post suggested that this group has done anything like this.
quote:
One can not sacrifice their faith on the alter of tolerance for the sake of what appears to be something good… but is really something evil.
What has this group done that is evil? Do you have a real charge to make, or are you slandering them to fit your own agenda.
quote:
The New Age Movement has infiltrated the Church and has watered down the gospel and even preached another Jesus and another gospel....
[b]If you Really want to understand what's going on, how this Horrid religion has almost taken over Christianity, then I would recommend reading Constance Cumbey's book "The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow."
I have read it. Now I ask you, if its True that the enemy has infiltrated the Church and seeks to change its doctrine, if the wolves are now loose amongst the flock, what should our response be? Do we, on our own authority, abandon our brethren and form our own little 'church'and run away from the battlefield? Or do we STAND with our brethren, expose the frauds and maintain the unity of the Body?
Consider carefully 1John 2:19 and ask yourself if we should 'take our leave' from the ranks of the faithful or follow such a one as does.
If you wish to speak about and expose the New Age movement, by all means so so. But please don't slander a group of well meaning christians by making a connection with it unless you have some proof that this is what they are truly doing and promoting.
Peace and LOVE!
PJ
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The problem is that there can be no "goodwill" apart from Christ. There is but one that is Good and that is God...the only will that is good is God's will and the only way we can be caused to will and want what God doth will and want is through the regeneration of Christ.
AMEN Sis!!
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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The problem is that there can be no "goodwill" apart from Christ. There is but one that is Good and that is God...the only will that is good is God's will and the only way we can be caused to will and want what God doth will and want is through the regeneration of Christ.
There is no "goodwill" apart from Christ.
Even when man tries to do good, without Christ he is doing the work of Satan though it looks to him to be good.
We were just talking about this in the Kingdom Economic's thread.
The only "good will" that exists in this earth is the will of God and if Christ is not part of that then it is not "goodwill"
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
In the mean time, if even one person has their "blinders" removed, then it will have been worth the effort.
AMEN Sis! That is my Prayer!!! And thank you for the encouraging words ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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hardcore
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Soft Touch,
You are right on with these postings. Thank you for continuing to be a voice for this deception.
I know it can be increasingly difficult in the face of opposition from those within your own faith.
The time will come when some will not be able to ignore these things any longer. Some, unfortunately, will remain blind and fall further into deception.
In the mean time, if even one person has their "blinders" removed, then it will have been worth the effort.
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SoftTouch
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2 Corinthians 6:14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
1 Corinthians 10: 21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
There are Many Churches now days that deny the very deity of Jesus Christ. Unity can not be had at the cost of doctrine. One can not sacrifice their faith on the alter of tolerance for the sake of what appears to be something good… but is really something evil. The New Age Movement has infiltrated the Church and has watered down the gospel and even preached another Jesus and another gospel.
It would Really Help if Christians would learn what the New Age Movement is and what it's all about. They claim "Peace, Love, Unity, Goodwill, Charity" It sounds good... but there's a very rotten core!
The New Age Movement is nothing more then Occultism/Gnosticism/Mystery Religion under a new title. The very religion that was observed in Babylon - it is Mystery Babylon. God Hates It! It is the religion of Anti-Christ and it has infiltrated the Majority of churches.
If you Really want to understand what's going on, how this Horrid religion has almost taken over Christianity, then I would recommend reading Constance Cumbey's book "The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow." It's an out of print book (written in 1983(?)) but you can still find it as a used book. It explains Soooo Much. I'm not even done reading it and already I can see so much New Age Blasphmey in so many different denominations and MOST of the Christian books that are produced nowdays.
New Agers believe that humans can obtain godhood... What do the faith teachers teach? "Ye are gods" "I am a little messiah" New Agers also believe in Jesus, but they claim that he was only a man who achieved "christ consicenceness" (which they believe all humans are capable of) but that it left him at his death. Therefore they deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. That makes sense if you look at it from the WOF point of view... how could The Christ have gone into Hell to suffer if he were the Christ? Sorry... that's just plain Anit-Biblical Anti-Christ!
New Agers believe that you can manipulate "The Force" by guided visualization (just imagine what you want and you'll create it). This sounds Exactly like the "Positive Confession" stuff in the WOF Movement... there is no difference... it's Socery/Witchcraft and God Abhores it!
New Agers believe in repetitive prayers (Speaking things into existence). "The Prayer of Jabez?"
New Agers believe in "Positive Thinking" - negative thoughts create bad karma. Same thing Robert Schuller and a few others teach.
New Agers seeks "Spiritual Experiences" over teaching. So do those in the Toronto Blessing/Pensacola Outpouring, Third Wave, Vineyard Movement. No one will Ever convince me that mooing like a cow, barking like a dog, or writhing like a snake on the floor is a manifestation of God's Holy Spirit! It's Demonic!
True New Agers HATE Christians and Jews (and Moslems too) because each of these groups believes there is only one god. They have an Ancient agenda handed down throughout the ages to exterminate any and all who would oppose the rise of Anti-Christ (which they are Eager to bring about! They think he's the real god). Their god is Lucifer (Satan). Their goal is to "Cleanse" the earth of all opposition to their master and they are doing this in many different ways. Weather manipulation, man-made earthquakes, purposeful plagues. Their goal is to 'cleanse' 2/3 of the earths population. And this is only a Fraction of what is happening.
PLEASE don't allow yourself to be decieved!!!! Find out for yourself what is going on! Do the Research!
God said
Hosea 4:6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
The committee issued a statement saying it had "wrestled with difficult and complex issues in a spirit of love and goodwill" (Note from SoftTouch: How very New Age of them…) and had "intensive dialogue and sharing" with black churches.
That is pretty bad when we start attacking a spirit of love and goodwill. As I recall that is something we learn from the Bible. Remember I Corinthians 13?
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I see no problem with Churches working together for the poor, but not at the expense of the truth of God's Word. The Uniteran Church has made such a practice of acceptance that they have lost sight of the truth of God's Word. You could say what does it hurt for all Churches to join hands to accomplish good works. Well if you are reaching to the lost and they see you all together with those who teach against God's Word and those who teach against the truth, they will think that it doesn't matter what you believe. They will think that you believe that it dosen't matter what you believe as long as you believe in SOMETHING.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Philip James
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Hello Soft Touch,
quote:
At the recent meeting, he said, the group began to talk about overcoming poverty and "what could be the impact if the Catholics, Protestants and the Pentecostals and the historical racial and Christian movements all came together. They could have more impact than the government." (And what about our Major Doctrinal Differences? Some of these ‘church’s’ have denied the very Diety of Jesus… The TRUE Body of Jesus would never unite with Apostacy!)
From the article you posted, this group is not being formed to declare dogma but to act , in charity with one another, to alleviate the suffering of the poor. Your protests against this fly in the face of the Gospel which calls us to act in love, bearing with one another in service to God and our fellow man.
see Romans 15:1-6, Eph 4:1-5, Col 3:12-15, Gal 5:19-23 for starters.
The Spirit calls us to build up the unity of the Body, bearing with one another in LOVE; to oppose such charitable acts while promoting factionalism is contrary to that Spirit working in us.
Do we have doctrinal differences? YES! But the call to serve the poor is certainly something we can agree on. Would you oppose that Good because of a dispute with your brother about some other issue?
Which do you think makes a greater witness of the Gospel to those in darkness... our working together in Charity or our bickering and factionalism based on our doctrinal differences?
Peace and Love!
PJ
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yahsway
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BM, I left the Assenbly of God because of compromises. I now belong to a house fellowship. They are increasing as God is calling many to come out of such places. Shalom
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BrazilianMommy
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Hey, I am seeing the day where the churches will meet at homes again. When some denominations allowed gays to be candidate to be ministers I left the presbiterian church I was going to.
Christian churches compromise to much, trying to be political and for me this is unacceptable (spell?). Jesus died because he was not politically correct, He spoke the truth.
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Jesus loves you
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SoftTouch
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There is something HUGE missing from their equation… The Lord God Almighty!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050614/lf_nm/religion_christians_dc
Christians nearing a new unity
A coalition that would for the first time unite the major Christian faiths in the United States is taking years to coalesce, but its organizers say that's a good sign and are not discouraged. (Note from SoftTouch: Notice the “S” at the end of the word ‘faith’… interesting indeed! I Thought the Christian “Faith” was all about Jesus being our Salvation? Who HE Is, What He Did… But then again, not all ‘church’s stick to the Fundamental Truths of The Bible)
One day the group could speak with a single voice on important issues in a country of 296 million where historically three of every four people claim to be Christian or at least identify with that faith.
The group, Christian Churches Together in the USA, began in 2001 when more than two dozen church leaders met to find a way to spread the patchwork quilt of U.S. churches on a single table.
They range from Bible Belt Baptists and black Protestants to Orthodox ethnics to more ritualized Episcopalians and Catholics. Historic suspicions and theological divisions have often kept them fragmented. (Note from SoftTouch: These Theological Divisions are things that Can Not be compromised on! The Bible says that if anyone brings NOT the Doctrine that Jesus and the Apostles taught (which many of these churches do not teach – they teach another gospel and another Jesus), then they are to be Accursed! Not United With!)
Organizers had spoken of formalizing the group this spring, with a public debut worship service in Washington in the autumn. But a steering committee meeting in California earlier this month instead produced a decision to meet again for further work in the spring of 2006.
The committee issued a statement saying it had "wrestled with difficult and complex issues in a spirit of love and goodwill" (Note from SoftTouch: How very New Age of them…) and had "intensive dialogue and sharing" with black churches.
Bishop Christopher Epting, ecumenical officer for the U.S. Episcopal Church, said the effort had been "strengthened ... by our consensus decision to make sure that we have significant representation" from every sector before a formal launch.
A BROAD TABLE
The Rev. Jeff Farmer, president of Open Bible Churches, an association of evangelical Pentecostal/charismatic churches, said he came away from the California meeting convinced that while the group may not formally exist, "It already does in our minds" and "we're well down the road" to a launch.
"I see it as huge, a hinge in history," he said in an interview. "It's never before happened on this planet, that such a broad table has gathered." (Note from SoftTouch: Yes, it’s called a Great Apostacy!)
What might look like a delay, he said, is really an effort to accommodate an increasing number of denominations who want to be founding members but who have a variety of meeting dates and schedules to work under to win the approval of their memberships.
"It is an opportunity for us to work together not as activists in a sense of political lobbying -- I don't think that's on anyone's mind -- but rather working together for the good of culture and community." (Note from SoftTouch: I thought It was all about God’s Glory? Bringing people to a Saving Knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord? Spreading the Gospel?)
At the recent meeting, he said, the group began to talk about overcoming poverty and "what could be the impact if the Catholics, Protestants and the Pentecostals and the historical racial and Christian movements all came together. They could have more impact than the government." (And what about our Major Doctrinal Differences? Some of these ‘church’s’ have denied the very Diety of Jesus… The TRUE Body of Jesus would never unite with Apostacy!)
So far, 31 churches and national organizations have formally joined the group, six more than the target core of 25 organizers had said they needed to begin. An additional 20 church leaders interested in joining were present at the California meeting.
Currently, the 55-year-old National Council of Churches represents faiths with 45 million members but the country's 66 million Roman Catholics do not belong.
U.S. Catholic bishops, in an ecumenical spirit growing out of the Second Vatican Council, explored joining the Council 30 years ago but decided to opt instead for collaboration, citing among other things different priorities.
A FORUM FOR MUTUAL TRUST
Catholics have been involved in the new group since the start. Cardinal William Keeler of Baltimore said at one point he envisioned the new organization as one with no large bureaucracy or programs of service to the churches but would be a "forum for mutual trust and exchange."
Tim Matovina, director of the Cushwa Center for the Study of American Catholicism at the University of Notre Dame, said one of the significant things about the new group is its stated objective of not taking a stand on something unless all member churches agree.
Often today the rank-and-file members don't always agree with what church leaders say, he said.
Beyond that, the renewed interest in ecumenical cooperation is another indication that "in American religion today ... denominations mean less and less," he said.
The country has a strong history rooted in home-ruled Congregational churches, and today Lutherans, Presbyterians and Catholics are "experiencing this Congregational dynamic where people kind of ignore or resist what denominational leaders say, and seek out a pastor who suits their style ... what's important is the service." (Note from SoftTouch: Yes, the Bible tells us that there would come a time when people would not endure sound doctrine, but heap unto them selves teachers to scratch their itching ears.)
John Witvliet, director of the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship at Calvin College in Michigan, said one ecumenical driving force is that generally more liberal groups such as Catholics and more conservative evangelicals are finding common ground in recognizing a need for helping the poor and suffering.
"Some of the North American Christians who have been traditionally most opposed to ecumenical engagement (namely some evangelical and Pentecostal denominations) are now willing to engage with other Christian traditions," he said.
~ ~ ~ End of quote of article ~ ~ ~
Don’t be fooled by the pretty packaging… it may ‘seem’ like it’s a good cause (helping the poor and all) but the agenda is Much Broader… it’s true aim is the destruction of Christianity by watering down Fundamental Beliefs and Compromising on Essential Doctrinal Issues in a false Unity (rather the people involved know this or not).
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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