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Topic: Gay rights a hot topic in Lutheran churches
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
Romans 1:
26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29: Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30: Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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phaze
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Member # 1688
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We all know that no one is made homosexual by God.
They are just heterosexuals who have chosen to commit sins and have chosen the cop out of claiming that "God made me this way"
What a horrible choice they have made. We must condemn them at all opportunities.
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Don't be a doubting Thomas
Posts: 69 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Producer Tim
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Member # 1456
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posted
Cursed be the man the layeth with another man.
Posts: 7 | From: Alaska | Registered: May 2003
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Kindgo
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Member # 2
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Universalism
by Phillip Goodman
Universalism, Second Chance Salvation & Tolerant Teachers?
On rare occasions we have had to cancel a speaker's engagement at the Tulsa International Prophecy Conference. But it was something that had to happen in order that we might remain faithful to the Bible. This has occurred after belatedly finding out about a speaker's position which is a clear departure from Biblical truth, that is, the "faith which was once (in time, i.e., unique) for all (for all people, at all times, i.e., unchangeable) delivered to the saints." (Jude 3) This happened on one occasion when we discovered that a speaker teaches Universalism. In this teaching, all people will eventually be saved. This idea is not found in the Bible, and contains the deadly notion that one may have a second chance at salvation after death.
We do not believe any of our ministry supporters (let alone God!) would ever want us to compromise on what our Lord teaches regarding faithfulness to the truth of the Scriptures.
Some would say that we are not practicing "love," but rather intolerance, when we do not permit a speaker with these types of beliefs to participate in our ministry. But scripture equates real love-- the gift of the Holy Spirit-- with truth! It is not the patronizing, politically correct "feel-good" love that Jesus-- Who is the Truth (John 14:6)-- exemplified. The Bible equates love with-- not an issue of tolerance or intolerance-- but with "truth," for "...we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine...but speaking the truth in love...we are to grow up in all aspects into Him..." (Ephesians 4:14-15)
You see from this passage (and so many others like it) that it is not an issue of what we believe. Nor is the issue what another teacher believes. Neither is it how either of us "interpret" the Bible. The issue is simply what the Bible says in its own words without either of us reading into it our "interpretation." When Ephesians talks about "every wind of doctrine," it is talking about false teaching. The speaker we had to decline is not simply a believer, but a teacher, with an extensive outreach through a ministry web site and various publications. This teacher teaches that people have an opportunity to be saved from their sin after they die, something called "second-chance salvation." The teacher also places God's righteous judgment (of those who reject Christ in this life) at odds with the commandment "Thou shalt not kill," which would make God a violator of His own commandment if He were to Judge sinners with finality. These are unbiblical teachings.
When people taught such unbiblical doctrines in the days of the Apostles, Paul (led by the Holy Spirit) said to "avoid" them, and that their talk would "spread like gangrene." (2 Timothy 2:15) The Apostle John said that "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching [teaching true to the Bible], do not receive him...for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds." (2 John 10) When the Bible says to "hold fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching," (Titus 1:9) and when it also says that those who are teachers, as we here at Thy Kingdom Come are, "will incur a stricter judgment," (James 2:26) then we trust those who believe it is a "display of intolerance" to refuse a speaker a place in our ministry "just because we don't agree with them," would reread the Bible and reconsider, and understand why we must be faithful to our Lord in doing so.
Remember, it was Jesus who commanded us to "love one another, just as I have loved you." (John 15:12) How did He love us? He not only gave Himself for us, but He prayed that the Father would "Sanctify [set apart] them [us] in the truth." Then He said "Thy word [the Bible] is truth." (John 17:17)
We could write so much more about what the Bible teaches on this subject. However, this hopefully will suffice to show that in order to love others as Jesus loves us, we must love them in the truth of the Word of our Lord as spelled out in the Bible, not in the untruth. It is not "the untruth" that Jesus promised would "make you free!" (John 8:32) It is, according to the Bible, God's expressed will that all people come to repentance-- not any old repentance, but to "repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will." (2 Timothy 2:25-26) The dangerous teaching that one doesn't have to receive Christ in this life in order to ultimately be saved from Gods' final judgment is an untruth. No matter what we may personally think, the Bible never refers to these matters as "petty differences" that can be resolved by "tolerance."
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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The All New Warm and Fuzzy Feel-Good Church of the Non-Judgmental
By Drew
It might be quite affirming to offer a church for kleptomaniacs, instead of being light, they would be light fingered Louies. Might prove interesting when it comes time to take-up the collection.
It might be quite affirming to offer a church for alcoholics to drink and feel good about themselves, and then they could be the drunkard dunkards. It would offer the Pentecostals a run for their money in being slain-in-the-spirit.
It would be quite affirming to have the NAMBLA segment of the homosexual community be placed in positions of youth ministry. Whoops I think the RCC kind of has a handle on that one.
It would be quite affirming to place all of the liars in charge of the Bible study, that way the scriptures could be taught to scratch the itching ears. Whoops most of the liberals already have quite a handle on that one, with the removal and denial of so much of the truth of the Word.
It would be so affirming to offer a sports church, and instead of the old dry uncomfortable sermon, there could be a big screen TV in place of the pulpit, with ESPN, as the focus of worship. Cheerleaders could make a beer run.
It would be quite affirming for those who are ever learning and never able to decide, to offer a banquet of theology, with a table of crystals in the hall, yoga in the Sunday school room, whoops don't forget to rub the Buddha Belly before entering the sanctuary, where today's worship music will be provided by our new gothic rock youth band, while the latest teachings of Wicca will be presented for your enjoyment.
It is truly enlightening and absolutely affirming to bring the church out of the dark ages and all that out-dated Blood emphasis. It is absolutely ghastly for the self-esteem, to mention the mythos of sin-dogma, and how we have to discard the concept of repentance, for it makes humanity so uncomfortable to be told to go against their natural inclinations. The church must become modern for all enlightened accepted Bible scholars know that the mythical Jesus was the personification of the superior pathway to the Ultimate Unity for everyman.
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As for me and my house we will serve the LORD.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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Why should they change their ways when the so called "church" is telling them they can have their way and salvation too.
There is a way that seems right to man, but leads to damnation!
In the name of eccumenism, there are many in the so called "church" belonging to many mainline denominations that are "loving" people with a false love and loving them right to the gates of hell!
1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1 Corinthians 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Believe God's word... not man's customs and traditions.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Newly Confirmed
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Member # 1290
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God made it for men and women to marry and lay together, not men and men or women and women.
![[Frown]](frown.gif) I am very disappointed in the Church for judging, but more for the gay church goers. I hope they change their ways.
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Brady
Posts: 33 | From: Gillett, Arkansas | Registered: Mar 2003
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Miguel
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Member # 47
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1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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Member # 2
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Gay rights a hot topic in Lutheran churches
Kim Palmer, Star Tribune
Published May 18, 2003 REC18
Minnesota Lutherans are not known as a racy bunch. But the hot topic now in many congregations is sex.
Specifically, gay sex. And whether sexually active gay individuals should be ordained as pastors, receive blessings for commitment ceremonies, or just be welcome in church.
Many faiths are wrestling with such issues, but the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) -- Minnesota's second-largest denomination, behind Catholicism -- is in the thick of things as never before.
This month, three metro-area ELCA churches have taken on three big debates:
• Lutheran Church of Christ the Redeemer in southwest Minneapolis will install a partnered lesbian pastor today, defying the ELCA's requirement that unmarried clergy, gay or straight, be celibate.
• Also today, Pilgrim Lutheran of St. Paul will vote on a "statement of welcome" to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered (GLBT) people.
• On May 4, another St. Paul congregation, Gloria Dei, voted by a wide margin to allow its pastors to bless same-sex unions. The ELCA has no official policy prohibiting such blessings, but church leaders have discouraged them.
Leaders have urged churches to talk about these issues, however, well ahead of the 2005 Churchwide Assembly, during which members will discuss the results of a four-year sexuality study and consider changing the ban on ordaining noncelibate gays and lesbians.
"I'm worried that large segments of the ELCA are choosing not to have conversations about these issues," the Rev. Mark Hanson, the ELCA's presiding bishop, told the Metro Lutheran monthly newspaper in April. "Most of us grew up in homes where we didn't talk about sexuality, and now we're going to fumble through with this new challenge." If Lutherans don't talk openly now -- and instead await the assembly's decision and then react -- "we will have a divided church," he said at a pastors' conference last month.
There are already splits in some congregations. Advocates liken the gay-rights debate to the civil rights movement. Critics contend that they're being asked to endorse a lifestyle they say the Bible condemns.
A renewed calling
When the Rev. Mary Albing divorced her husband and former co-pastor and came out as a lesbian five years ago, she thought her life as a parish minister was over. "I didn't intend to stay single, and I didn't want to lie," she said.
Today, Albing, 48, will be installed as pastor of Redeemer. The bishop will not "sign the call," meaning the synod will not officially recognize the installation.
Even so, Albing said, the new parish is a blessing. "I feel so grateful. . . . Five years ago, there was no place for me to be."
Redeemer's decision to hire Albing, who is in a committed relationship, followed its move five years ago to become a Reconciling in Christ (RIC) congregation, said church council president Ruth Peterson. (RIC is the term for gay-welcoming among ELCA churches.) Two members submitted letters asking the church to consider gay and lesbian pastoral candidates. "The letters said, 'This seems to be a contradiction, that we welcome [gays and lesbians], but not to the pulpit.' "
Last fall, church members voted 64 to 9 to change their constitution to allow candidates not on the ELCA roster, including noncelibate gays.
Meanwhile, Albing, a hospital chaplain, was seeking to return to parish ministry. "I missed digging into scripture. I missed going through the lifespan with people, knowing their kids, their pets. I decided to take a chance."
She filled out the synod's form indicating her availability, including the question about whether she intended to remain celibate if unmarried. "I put 'no,' which triggered a conversation with Bishop [Craig] Johnson," who heads the ELCA's Minneapolis Area Synod. (Albing wasn't an official ELCA candidate; the church learned of her availability through a member who knew her.)
After her first interview, Albing knew she wanted the job. "They're just the most wonderful people: gracious, smart, informed, living out their faith, interested in social justice."
And the committee was taken with Albing, Peterson said. "She's outgoing and warm, highly recommended and an outstanding preacher." Members voted 58 to 17 to select Albing.
It's rare for a Lutheran church to seek to include both straight and gay candidates, Albing said. "They didn't set out to choose a gay person; they just allowed gay people to be part of the equation."
Albing said her installation is riskier than the high-profile ordination in 2001 of Anita Hill, a lesbian pastor in St. Paul, because Hill was already part of her church, St. Paul-Reformation. Redeemer members "don't know me. A lot of people must be worrying about the status of the congregation. Some churches have been disciplined."
Hill's church received sanctions that precluded congregants from any churchwide leadership role. The sanctions were lifted this year.
Bishop Johnson said he doesn't anticipate major sanctions against Redeemer: "If anything, we would send a letter of admonishment."
Albing plans to seek a three-year leave from call, delaying a decision on her status until after the 2005 assembly. "Because our church is in a time of study on this issue, it seems prudent to postpone a decision," Johnson said.
Albing grew up on a farm near Windom, Minn., and attended the University of Wisconsin-Madison and Luther Seminary in St. Paul. She and her partner, Jane Lien, a church musician at Central Lutheran in Minneapolis, are "lifelong Lutherans," Albing said.
Albing's midlife realization that she was a lesbian was "a very humbling experience," and the decision to end her marriage was painful, she said. She and her former husband have two teenage children. "I tried to stay married for a long time, but once you figure it out, there's not much integrity left in the marriage."
The experience made her stronger and better prepared to be a pastor, she said, but otherwise, "My interest is in preaching, teaching and comforting people. My issue is not GLBT stuff."
Part of transformation
The welcoming statement before Pilgrim Lutheran today is an acknowledgment -- and a pledge. "The larger church has had such a horrid past in how it's treated GLBT people," said the Rev. Carol Tomer, lead pastor. "It's part of our repentance and transformation, to name it aloud and be very clear about our intentions for the future."
The vote, if affirmative, would make Pilgrim one of about two dozen RIC congregations in the state, out of 1,178 ELCA churches. About 100 Minnesota congregations of various denominations called themselves gay-welcoming in 2002, according to Open Hands, a Chicago-based ecumenical publication that supports the trend. There are 5,100 or more congregations in the state.
Pilgrim's welcoming statement hasn't been particularly contentious, members said. Still, some question the need.
Diane Schneeberger of Mendota Heights said she first became concerned after her 8-year-old daughter, who attends a Lutheran school affiliated with a more conservative denomination, asked about the words "gay" and "lesbian" in the church bulletin.
"I haven't even told her about the birds and bees," she said. "I have gay friends, but I don't think it needs to be discussed in church. No one asks me what my sexual preference is. . . . It's hard enough for a parent to explain the regular stuff."
Three days before the vote, Schneeberger said she remained "torn about what is right" but was leaning toward voting no. "We have been totally stressed about this." A member for 11 years, she has started looking at other churches.
Gene Baum of St. Paul also has reservations. Gays and lesbians are "as welcome as the next person" at Pilgrim, he said. "[But] when you single out one group, you're excluding others."
Jodi Gustafson, Pilgrim's music director, who is a lesbian, believes specific welcome is needed because historically gay people have felt anything but welcome. "From the institutional church, not just Lutheran, all you hear is a series of condemnation messages. It's intimidating to walk through the door if you're a person already at risk of rejection. If we want [gays] to feel welcome, we have to say so."
To prepare for the vote, Pilgrim members underwent a year of seminars, Bible study and discussion. The church also has tried to reach out to members who may be uncomfortable with the statement or who have questions, Tomer said, "not to change their minds but to let them know there's room for diversity of opinion. . . . My concern is not a literal number of yeses or nos, but a way to be together on this."
Pastors' discretion
There are no same-sex blessing requests pending at Gloria Dei, but its pastors are now free to use their discretion when they come up, said the Rev. M. Susan Peterson, the lead pastor. The congregation's recent vote is part of a process that began a few years ago. Several couples had approached her, and Peterson felt she needed congregational input. The church council concluded that a decision on same-sex blessings was "putting the cart before the horse," Peterson said, and began a lengthy process of study and discussion. That led to a unanimous voice vote in 2000 to become an RIC congregation.
At the annual meeting a year and a half ago, a member urged the church to take up the same-sex blessing issue, Peterson said. There was more discussion and study.
The resolution that resulted "affirms the pastors and their decisions," Peterson said, and "relieves the congregation of theological responsibility."
Gay couples will be required to take part in premarital counseling, just as straight couples are, to prepare them for a "lifelong committed relationship," Peterson said.
The vote on the resolution was 206 to 53. There was no discussion at the meeting, but immediately after the vote, Peterson said, she addressed those in attendance. "I acknowledged that we are divided, and that our faith is bigger than this issue," she said. "I don't see this vote as a victory; I see the process of getting there as a sign of our growth and faith."
Wedding coordinator Helen Arneson voted no, but she's still willing to handle same-sex unions.
And she's glad the congregation addressed the topic. "That's what I love about Gloria Dei -- it's so open. We at least talk about things."
'Very painful'
At some ELCA congregations, gay-welcoming efforts have been started only to stall or be blocked. At least one postponed the process after the pastor saw that a vote would be divisive.
Randi Reitan of Eden Prairie considered leaving Central Lutheran in Minneapolis after a May 2001 vote by more than 500 members on whether to become an RIC congregation failed by 10 votes.
The vote was "very painful" for Reitan, who said she chose the church after learning that her youngest son, Jake, was gay, largely because it seemed gay-friendly. "A lot of gay members left."
The Reitans stayed, but with "very mixed feelings. We've been Lutheran all our lives. It's hard to walk away from these organized churches."
Reitan is a member of Soulforce, an interfaith group that promotes nonviolent protest aimed at ending "spiritual violence" against gays and lesbians. She's been arrested twice during vigils at church conventions. And she keeps up the cause at Central Lutheran. "We take the gifts of these beautiful people and then treat them like there's something wrong with them," she said.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.Kim Palmer is at kpalmer@startribune.com.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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