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Topic: Ezekiel 13:20
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Paul, beloved saint, do you remember this picture? Depending on how a person looks at this, he will see a young woman or a very old woman.
It's a matter of perspective.
Some people believe in evolution because of all "the evidence". Some people believe in aliens for the same reason.
Human reasoning comes up with a ton of questions and arguments to prove that Jesus Christ is not God, that there is no God, that the Bible is false.
That there is no pre-trib Rapture.
Their perspective is wrong.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eden
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posted
Brother Paul and Ezekiel 13:20, I agree with both of you 100%. Even this simple parable shows that "the bad and the good are still together" when the net is drawn in at the end of time:
Matthew 13:48
Which, when it was full, they drew to shore and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Clearly the bad and the good are still together right up to the end. And there are a number of parables showing the same pattern in the New Testament.
So I agree with you two 100%. Thank God for you two.
love, Eden
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Ezekiel 13:20
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I spent many years trying to believe the pre-trib rapture doctrine. I took courses,went to Bible lessons,even took classes taught by some of the famous rapture teachers.
I went through a period thinking I must not be saved because I just couldn't fit a pre-trib rapture in there. Second Coming and Millenial Rein made perfect sense,but not a pre-trib rapture.
I'm now the black sheep of my family and friends,I won't go to any church that teaches or doesn't teach against it.
Christ said False christ shall apear before His Return. The finial generation,whenever it comes about,will be deceived if they are expecting Christ to return before anti-christ appears.
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Brother Paul
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Member # 7959
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posted
Carol, my sister, I love you but these are not two events...the Bible makes that clear. The coming (in the clouds) is when all will see Him and He comes all the way down with the we who are caught up, right at the same time. There is no half-way coming then a later coming all the way down. There is only one second "coming" at which is the rapture and the destruction of the forces of Anti-Christ and Zechariah 12:10 and on makes it clear as well.
Not one of the early church writers taught by the Apostles, or those holy and faithful men that they in turn appointed, ever taught otherwise either. Only one Parousia left, not one and a half...
Now I agree that the other extreme ready to throw anathemas over scriptures like Ezekial 13:20 are also performing eisegesis (they are reading in what is not there), but so aren't those who see "Pre" in Thesselonians...it is simply not there. It was what they have been taught. And they were taught with provisional interpretation. The theory interprets the word and not the word determining the doctrine.
The one and only next "coming" is the time of the Rapture and is also the time He sets His foot on the Mount of Olives (from where He left) and the destruction of the enemies of God occurs at that time (which means the Church is on the earth till Anti-Christ is taken out) which begins the Millennial reign period.
Now I myself was a vehement defender of the pre-trib view and a hyper-Calvinist. I was saved in a church that taught it, and my btother James and myself took classes on defending these positions, and then one day I heard R.C. Sproul expound on the Parousia and it made me think. I had never really open mindedly considered the opposing views. I prayed and studied and studied and prayed ignoring the filter that argued in the head against what I was [plainly seeing in the word...and then I realized the Bible only teaches pre- if your taught to see it that way.
I do not believe that without a coach and being inundated with this hope, that one can or ever did come to that conclusion on their own (Even Darby). The Church never taught it, and the evidence against it from the Scriptures from the pens of Matthew, Paul, John, and all the early church stands blatenantly against it, that is wihtout "interpretation".
To tell you the truth from my most sincere desire I wish their would be such an event, but now and always I will warn my children...trim your wicks and keep you lamp full so you will be ready when He comes. Cause you ain;t goin nowhere till He enters in and shuts the door on the make-believers. May He find us ready when He returns.
The Lord Bless,
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
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posted
Ezekiel 13:20
At least you people are consistent. I have yet to meet a person who was against the pretreb rapture that when pressed on the issues did not become abusive.
The only lie there is as by people like you who try to say that there is no pre-trib rapture.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
ON THIS WE STAND,
The Pretribulation RAPTURE of the Church (1Thes.4:13-18; Titus 2:13,14; 1Cor 15:51-53; Phil. 3"20,21).
The personal, premillennial RETURN OF CHRIST to reigh on earth (Zech.14:4,9; Acts 1:10,11; Rev. 19:11-16;20:4-6)
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
You named yourself after a mistranslation that has NOTHING to do with the rapture! ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
I think I'll call you Ezee (Easy).
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Ezekiel 13:20
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Ezekiel 13:20 was changed in modern day versions to cover up for the ever popular pre-trib rapture LIE!
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
(Too many "E" names!)
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) Ezekiel was deported to Babylon, along with King Jehoiachin, during the second siege of Jerusalem. King Jehoiakim had died during his rebellion against Babylon. His son, King Jehoiachin ruled for 3 months before Babylon had retaken Jerusalem and deported the king along with Ezekiel and others. Ezekiel was 8 years old at the time of his deportation.
When Ezekiel was 30 years old he received his first vision and his call by God. As part of the priestly family, Ezekiel would have been eligible to begin serving as a priest in the temple at the age of 30. However, as an exile he would not be able to fulfill his priestly calling. Instead, God calls him as His prophet in Babylon.
Enoch prophesied about the second coming of Christ (before God took him).
Hebrews 11:5 (RSV)
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.
Jude 1:14-15 (NASB)
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
And it is Elijah who will be here during the Tribulation.
Malachi 4:5 (NASB)
Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.
In Luke 4:18, when Jesus stood up in the temple and quoted Isa.61:1-2, He stopped at proclaiming the acceptable year of the Lord and did not read of the day of vengeance of our God. This is reserved for the tribulation period in which Elijah will preach before the day of the Lord.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Betty Louise
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Member # 7175
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posted
Sorry about that Wild B. Don't think as well as I used to. Getting to be an old lady.
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.
I have been taught that Enoch walked so close to God that God took him. I have also been taught that Enoch will be one of the witnesses during the tribulation.
Betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Betty Louise, you wrote quote:
Ezekiel was caught up in the air ...
I'm sorry, Betty Louise, but that was not Ezekiel but Enoch who "was not".
Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
love, Eden
Why did he take him?
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That is all.....
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Eden
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Hi, Betty Louise, you wrote quote:
Ezekiel was caught up in the air ...
I'm sorry, Betty Louise, but that was not Ezekiel but Enoch who "was not".
Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
love, Eden
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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
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posted
Ezekiel was caught up in the air and so will Christians be at the rapture. Jesus was caught up in the clouds for that matter. At the rapture Jesus is coming again in the clouds for the Church. At the Second Coming, He will be on horse back ready for battle.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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Eden
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Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Furthermore, the doctrine of the rapture, that we will be "taken", or "caught up" or "raptured" to be with Christ is irrefutably a Bible doctrine, and is solidly based on 1 Thess 4:17.
The rapture or "being caught up in the twinkling of an eye" is definitely and irrefutably in the Bible; I don't think that bbs member Ezekiel 13:20 disputes that it is in the Bible.
But what bbs member Ezekiel 13:20 is saying is that the doctrine of a "pre" tribulation rapture or being caught away is NOT in the Bible and that it is based largely on Darby and on Margaret McDonald's dreams.
love, Eden
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
"The pre-trib rapture doctrine is a false teaching that Jesus warned us to expect in the latter days"
Corrie Ten Boom
From "Rapture-Prophecy or Heresy" by H.Speed Wilson pg.74
She also wrongfully believed that she was in the Tribulation during world war 2 and I can understand why she would think that.
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That is all.....
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Ezekiel 13:20
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"The pre-trib rapture doctrine is a false teaching that Jesus warned us to expect in the latter days"
Corrie Ten Boom
From "Rapture-Prophecy or Heresy" by H.Speed Wilson pg.74
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
An Attack On The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
Ezekiel 13:18 - 20 (NLT)
18 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: What sorrow awaits you women who are ensnaring the souls of my people, young and old alike. You tie magic charms on their wrists and furnish them with magic veils. Do you think you can trap others without bringing destruction on yourselves? 19 You bring shame on me among my people for a few handfuls of barley or a piece of bread. By lying to my people who love to listen to lies, you kill those who should not die, and you promise life to those who should not live. 20 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against all your magic charms, which you use to ensnare my people like birds. I will tear them from your arms, setting my people free like birds set free from a cage.
Ezekiel 13:20 (KJV) "the souls that ye hunt to make them fly"
Those who attack the pre-tribulation rapture sometimes read Ezekiel 13:18-20 in the King James, and wrongly conclude this is a condemnation of rapture teachers, who they see as ones who "hunt the souls to make them fly" and believe in the "fly away" doctrine of the pretrib rapture. Looking up this verse in multiple translations, the NIV, NASB, RSV, DARBY, and Young's Literal Translation, clearly shows that the subject of Ezekiel 13:18-20 is not the rapture at all.
Furthermore, the doctrine of the rapture, that we will be "taken", or "caught up" or "raptured" to be with Christ is irrefutably a Bible doctrine, and is solidly based on 1 Thess 4:17.
In Ezekiel 13:18-20, the subject appears to be fortune tellers, (women who read taro cards, gaze into crystal balls, palm reading and the like) who are prophesying strictly out of their own imagination (or reading into people's own desires) for money. These would be like those who work for the psychic hotlines today. There were these kinds of people even in King Saul's day, he "had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land." (1 Samuel 28:3), but ended consulting one anyway, (1 Sam 28:7), "...Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her..." The kinds of prophecy these people engaged in was a personal type of prophecy, such as "you will be rich," or "you will get married soon," that has nothing whatsoever to do with Bible Prophecy.
Second, the magic charms or pillows on the armholes or shirt sleeves are the thing that is used to deceive and hunt people. I don't know of any pretrib prophecy teacher who uses extravagant magic charms or "fortune-teller type" clothing on his arm sleeves to convince people of the pretrib rapture doctrine!
Third, the phase "to make them fly" is not rendered that way in any translation listed above except for the KJV. Thus, this proves quite easily that the subject is not a "fly away" doctrine, such as the rapture might be. The subject is ensnaring people, and the point of the use of the words "fly away" is that the Lord will help people to escape the clutches of these women.
KJV: Ezekiel 13:
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
NIV Ezekiel 13:20 "`Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against your magic charms with which you ensnare people like birds and I will tear them from your arms; I will set free the people that you ensnare like birds.
NASB Ezekiel 13:20 Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, ""Behold, I am against your magic bands by which you hunt [15] lives there as [16] birds and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let [17] them go, even those [18] lives whom you hunt as [19] birds.
RSV Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against your magic bands with which you hunt the souls, and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let the souls that you hunt go free like birds.
DARBY Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against your pillows, that the souls which ye catch by their means may fly away; and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, the souls that ye catch, that they may fly away.
Young's Ezekiel 13:20 Therefore, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I [am] against your pillows, With which ye are hunting there the souls of the flourishing, And I have rent them from off your arms, And have sent away the souls that ye are hunting, The souls of the flourishing.
Therefore, this is really one of the most groundless arguments floating around used to attack the rapture. Relatively few people have been so deceived, as to use this completely inapplicable scripture in their collection of invalid "no rapture" arguments. But for those who do, you can see that such authors have absolutely no respect for study, or for the meaning of words, and that they will use anything that sounds like it might be against the rapture to try and make their case. This goes to show the susceptibility to deception, and/or willingness to tell lies on the part of those who attack the rapture.
If you ever see anyone using this particular "no pretrib proof", you know that their scholarship and understanding of scripture probably needs a lot more work.
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/fly.htm
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