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Topic: the Rapture
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi again Keith,
I did a little more reading because I wanted to see a little more before and after what we were focusing on. I am lead to believe that Rev. 19 vs. 11-16 depict the coming of Jesus. Then I believe that Rev. 19 vs. 20 depicts what Paul refers to in 2 Thess. vs. 8 that wicked whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.........then when we get to chapter 20 it appears that Satan is bound for 1000 yrs, and Jesus reigns at this time for the same 1000 yrs. on earth. (NOTE: Not sure if 1000 yrs denotes just an appointed amount of time by God, or if it is to be translated literal) ........then Satan is loosed again to gather together all the unbelievers who were reserved for the final battle........
So to get back to Peters passage about the "day of the Lord" in which he states that the HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT, THE EARTH THEREIN ALSO SHALL BE BURNED UP.............it appears to be compared to the likes of Rev. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face THE EARTH FLED AWAY; AND THERE WAS NO PLACE FOUND FOR THEM.
My thoughts are that Peter's use of the words " "Day of the lord" , could also be translated as "Time of the lords return". So it would look something like this..........
But the "time of the Lords return" will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with a fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therin shall be burned up.
This way we would not have to say that everything is burned up in the first 24 hours , which would leave no earth for Jesus to reign on and no earth for the devil to be bound from until the appointed time to gather for battle.
Now I am picturing us, yes, being caught up with Jesus, and then being transported Jesus air way to the next destination here on earth to take out the deceptive leader.......because of course we would not be walking there or taking a plane to meet him there.....lol
It seems to make sense ,and kind of mimic the story of Moses, that Jesus and the saints are established on earth when the devil and his followers surround them for the last attempt(of course failing attempt) to overtake Jesus. Just like when Moses was at the edge of the sea when Pharoah and his soldiers thought they were going to overtake the Israelites......then from the heavens came the Almighty hand of God.
P.S. I was just reading my bible dictionary and it states that the "Day of the Lord" includes the actual coming of the Lord and the millennial kingdom up to the time of the creation of the New Heaven and Earth.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi again Keith,
There is something in your post that I would like to adress. You stated that Satan and his followers will surround the camp of the Saints after the heaven and earth descend from heaven........I am not sure I can agree with that sequence of events.....let me tell you why.
If we look at chapter 20 and 21 and assume that they do express a series of events in chronological fashion(in my opinion, it appears that they may) we have Revelation 20: 9 that reads "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.......and then later.....Revelation 21:1 that reads "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away(Rev 20:11); and there was no more sea.
Let me tell you what my thoughts are on this right now. Perhaps Peters decription of "the day of the Lord" describes one event in a chain of events that transpire at the time of His coming. If we were to consider that possibility, then it would be easier to reconcile it with Revelation chapter 20-21 in the sense that, in Jesus' coming, Jesus isnt necessarily going to destroy the world right away with a fervent heat. But this would also mean that Jesus isnt necessarily going to go to heaven with the Saints right away either.
So, all in all, I believe the possibility that there may be "simeltaneous" events(For ex: A gathering and a separating) as well as "sequential" events(For ex: Preparation for the final battle) that transpire in the time of the Lords coming.
Thank you for the fellowship my friend in the Lord.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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I contend that some of the main differences in viewpoints come because of what people envision as "Great tribulation" and "man of sin".
If one comes from the vantage point that everything after Revelation chapter 4 is great trib. and wrath of God, then I can see how people can say.....Oh no! its going to get much worse---there are going to be huge scorpions stinging men and creatures with 4 heads and ten eyes making them bow down to them.......but if one really takes a look for themselves at Rev. chapter 4 they would see for themselves that to take the words "I John was caught up in the spirit" and translate it to the "rapture of the church"....it is quite a stretch. Funny that someone would consider Rev. chapter 4 to have so much symbolism, but then after Chapter 4 everything is given such a literal translation.
I am not going to claim to be an expert on this topic, but I do know one thing is for sure. Jesus proclaims that there will be a time of "Great tribulation" such as has never been before that will transpire before His coming. Who are any of us to say that this could not have transpired already? ...."but, Oh no, it would have to be much worse". How about if we were to say that to the millions of martyr's this world has slain already?....and....
How do we know that the "man of sin" has not been revealed yet? Does he have to appear like the movies show him? Does he necessarily seize his power instead of being given his power? c'mon how predictable would that be? I contend that this man of sin blends well into our society and has heavy influence in the worlds religious and political affairs. Problem is this man allows himself to be exalted above all measure and changes and susbtracts and adds to the Holy Scriptures. Seems to me that this position could already be narrowed down.
Remember its the lies that hurt the most because they can lead one's soul into eternal Hell, but a sting from a scorpion that could only hurt the body.
Sometimes I think that people deep down want to believe that there will always be another chance given. "Well, if I am not raptured for whatever reason then God will give me another chance I am sure." A dangerous, dangerous attitude. There is a time that there will be no more time. No time to change our minds and repent, no time to turn to Christ. God will have determined that the harvest is ready and there will be no stopping God from fullfilling His promise. The sheep will be separated from the goats and the sheep will be with Jesus forevermore(wherever He goes and I dont care where that is because all that matters is that it is with Him) and the goats will go with who they followed after.
Just some of my thoughts and opinions.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Carol Swenson
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posted
oneinChrist
quote:
Hi Carol,
Could you please also post the arguments for the post-trib rapture? so we can really see all the differences and not just what Pre-tribbers have to say about the Post-tribbers. Thank you.
No oneinChrist. I believe the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation. People who believe otherwise will need to post their own arguments.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Keith,
I am sorry that I am still confused even after reading your post . Can you please explain to me, in a nushell, how you are using the above scripture to explain away what seems to be a paradox?
I have read much of what you have posted on this subject and you do seem to cover a lot of ground. Thank you much for your time.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi Carol,
Could you please also post the arguments for the post-trib rapture? so we can really see all the differences and not just what Pre-tribbers have to say about the Post-tribbers. Thank you.
I would like to point one thing out. As far as I know Post-tribbers also believe that Christ may come at any moment because they believe that we may have already entered the Great trib. time period as described by Jesus. I am certain that both sides would agree that the man of sin is revealed first, but here again they are not necessarily going to agree on how his "unveiling" comes about, if it hasnt already.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Eden
Did you know that the Textus Receptus, from which the KJV was translated, was based on half a dozen small manuscripts, none earlier than the 10th century?
If the Textus Receptus is the error free text, then why are the last 6 verses of Revelation absence from the TR, yet present in the KJV?
Did you know that for these verses, the Latin Vulgate was translated into Greek which was then translated into English - a translation of a translation of a translation?
Do the people who speak other languages all have inferior Bibles because they don't use the KJV?
Is the KJV "scripture" ?
Is IT "given by inspiration of God"? [2 Tim. 3:16]
WHEN was the KJV "given by inspiration of God" — 1611, or any of the KJV major/minor revisions in 1613, 1629, 1638, 1644, 1664, 1701, 1744, 1762, 1769, and the last one in 1850?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eden
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Dear Carol Swenson, you wrote to Eden quote:
If you use Strong's Concordance to look up a verse from the King James Version, then of course you're going to get the King James Version's Greek numbers!
Well, duh! Carol, the Greek word in the Greek manuscripts that we have of the New Testament have the Greek word "Christos" in that spot under discussion.
So the KJV accurately transliterated the actual Greek word "christos" that is in the Greek NT manuscripts, while the translations you quoted are all fudging on what the Greek manuscripts say.
It is irresponsible Bible translation to willy-nilly change "the day of Christ" to "the day of the Lord" because the word "Lord" in the Greek NT manuscripts, when referring to Jesus, is always "kurios".
But the Greek manuscripts have "Christos" there, NOT "kurios".
So to repeat what you said quote:
If you use Strong's Concordance to look up a verse from the King James Version, then of course you're going to get the King James Version's Greek numbers!
Thanks be to God that the KJV accurately transliterates the Greek that is underneath, and that the KJV does not change the Greek word just to fit the bias or whim of some translators!
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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Arguments for the Pretribulation Rapture
1. The first argument is based on imminency.
There are many Scriptures that indicate that Christians should be looking for the Lord to come at any time. We should be watching and waiting, not knowing the time of His coming. If the church has to go through the Tribulation, then we cannot be looking for Him to come at any moment. In fact, He could not come for at least seven years, since we are not in the Tribulation now, and when it comes, it will last for seven years.
The pretribulation view is the only one you can hold and still believe that Christ may come at any moment.
Here are some of the verses that indicate that we should be constantly looking for the Lord to come since we do not know the time of that event.
“Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body” (Rom. 8:23).
“For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes” (1 Cor. 11:26—Written to the Corinthians, this implied that the Lord might come in their lifetime.)
“For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven” (2 Cor. 5:2—Believers will be clothed with their glorified bodies at the Rapture.)
“For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness” (Gal. 5:5—The hope of righteousness is the coming of the Lord and the glorified body which we will receive at that time.)
“For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself” (Phil. 3:20, 21).
“Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand” (Phil. 4:5).
“For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come” (1 Thess. 1:9, 10).
“Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Tit. 2:13).
“So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation” (Heb. 9:28).
“For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry” (Heb. 10:37).
“Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!” (Jas. 5:7–9).
“But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers” (1 Pet. 4:7).
“And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure” (1 Jn. 3:3).
“Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life” (Jude 21. Here the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ is His return to take His blood-bought people home to heaven).
“Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown” (Rev. 3:11).
“Behold I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book” (Rev. 22:7).
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Rev. 22:12).
“He who testifies to these things says, ‘Surely I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!” (Rev. 22:20).
There are other texts which, while they might not refer directly to the Rapture, yet add to the general impression that the coming of Christ is imminent. Throughout its history, the believing church has held that the time of Christ’s coming is unknown and that therefore it could occur at any moment.
“Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect” (Matt. 24:42–44).
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning—lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!” (Mark 13:32–37).
“And you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately” (Luke 12:36).
“So that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 1:7).
“Christ Jesus, who is about to judge living and dead” (2 Tim. 4:1, JND).
“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour” (1 Jn. 2:18).
“Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you” (Rev. 3:3b).
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame” (Rev. 16:15).
2. The second argument is based on the promise that the church will be delivered from the wrath to come.
In Romans 5:9, Paul says that “we shall be saved from wrath through Him.” First Thessalonians 1:10 describes the Lord Jesus as our Deliverer from the wrath to come. And in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 we learn that God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. The word “wrath” may refer to the wrath of the Tribulation Period, or it may refer to God’s eternal judgment on unbelievers. In the Thessalonian Epistles, the context favors the wrath of the Tribulation (see 1 Thess. 5:2, 3; 2 Thess. 1:6–10; 2:10–12.
3. In Revelation 3:10, Christ promises to keep His people from (Greek ek, meaning “out of”) the hour of trial , which shall come on all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
4. The structure of the book of Revelation bears out the teaching of the pre-tribulation Rapture.
In chapters 2 and 3 the church is seen on earth, but after chapter 3 it is never mentioned again as being on earth. In chapters 4 and 5 the saints are seen in heaven, wearing victor’s crowns. Then follows the Tribulation on earth in chapters 6–19. The church saints are already in heaven.
5. The Tribulation Period will not begin until the man of sin has been revealed (2 Thess. 2:3).
But the man of sin will not be revealed until first the restrainer is removed (2 Thess. 2:7, 8). The Holy Spirit certainly answers to the name of restrainer; He hinders or restrains the full development of evil as long as the church is in the world. He will be removed as the Indweller of the church at the time of the Rapture.
In one sense the Holy Spirit always was in the world and always will be. But there was a special sense in which He came at Pentecost, i.e., as the permanent Indweller of believers and of the church. It is in that sense that He will be removed at the Rapture. This does not mean that the Spirit of God will not carry on a ministry during the Tribulation. He will still convict and convert sinners. But He will not permanently indwell them and He will not incorporate them into the church. His ministry will be somewhat comparable to what it was in the OT period.
6. In 1 Thessalonians 4:18 the Rapture is spoken of as a comforting prospect.
The Day of the Lord does not come as a comforter but as a thief in the night (1 Thess. 5:2). It is a time of sudden destruction (v. 3) and wrath (v. 9) from which there will be no escape (v. 3). In contrast, the Rapture is an ever-brightening hope, not an ever-frightening hope.
7. There must be an interval of time between Christ’s coming for His saints and His coming with His saints.
When Christ comes for His saints, all believers will be taken out of the world and will receive their glorified bodies (1 Cor. 15:51). Yet when Christ comes back to reign, there will be saved people who are still in their natural bodies, as is seen by the fact that they will be raising children (Isa. 65:20–25; Zech. 8:5). If the Rapture and the Revelation take place at the same time (the post-tribulation view), then where do these latter people come from?
There is a second reason why there must be an interval of time between the Rapture and the reign. The Judgment Seat of Christ must take place in heaven following the Rapture, when the Lord will judge the faithfulness of His saints and reward them accordingly (2 Cor. 5:10). The rewards given at this time will determine the extent of rule given to individual saints during the Millennium (Luke 19:17,19). If the Rapture and the coming to reign occurred simultaneously, there would be no time for the Judgment Seat of Christ to take place.
8. The only way the Day of the Lord will overtake anyone is as a thief in the night (1 Thess. 5:2).
Yet Paul distinctly states that it will not overtake believers as a thief in the night (1 Thess. 5:4). Therefore it will not overtake believers at all. Why not? Two reasons are given: (1) Believers are not children of the night but of the day (1 Thess. 5:4, 5). (2) God has not appointed believers to wrath (1 Thess. 5:9).
9. At the time of the Rapture, believers go to the Father’s house (John 14:3), not straight back to the earth, as post-tribulationists affirm.
10. The Tribulation is distinctly Jewish in character.
It is called the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7). Note the Jewish references in Matthew 24: Judea (v. 16), the Sabbath (v. 20), the holy place (v. 15). These terms have nothing to do with the church.
11. Several of the OT types point to a pretribulation Rapture. We do not build doctrine on types, but these types do fit the pretribulation view.
Enoch, a type of the church, was translated before the waters of God’s judgment fell, whereas Noah and his family, types of the believing Jewish remnant, were preserved through the flood.
Lot was delivered from Sodom before the fires of judgment fell.
Abraham’s offering of Isaac prefigures God offering His Son on Calvary.
The first time Isaac is mentioned after that incident is when he went out to meet his bride and to take her back to his home. So Christ’s first appearance after His Ascension will be when He comes to take His bride home to heaven.
Elijah was translated to heaven before judgment was meted out to the wicked Jezebel.
12. The first sixty-nine weeks of Daniel’s prophecy (9:24–27) extend from the decree of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C. to the crucifixion of Christ. They have nothing to do with the church.
Why then should the church be found in the seventieth week, which is the Tribulation Period? (Actually the Church Age occurs in an unmentioned parenthetical period between the sixty–ninth and seventieth weeks.)
(Believer's Bible Commentary)
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Keith
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[qoute]Hi Keith,
I think I just learned something from your posts........this 1000 yr reign that many people interpret as a time period where Jesus makes a physical presence on earth is difficult to reconcile with passages like Peters that describe the end with the elements burning with a fervent heat......... for many people then the natural tendency would be to ask the question ......how then could Jesus be reigning on the earth?if there is no earth??????
Ok, now on this train of though I noticed that you described the 1000 yr reign as to take place in Heaven........that is the part I am having a difficult time with right now in my study. In Revelation 20:4 the words "and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" are found......but later in vs. 8 the words "and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth" are found.
My question then is........if the 1000yr reign follows the destruction of the earth, then how is it that in the book of Revelation the earth is spoken of again after this 1000 yr. time period has expired?
With love in Christ, Daniel [/quote]
Hello Daniel,
Good question? Maybe the following can help.
Revelation 20 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The above verses have been printed in bold, or italicized for the purpose of pointing out the differences between what happens to the lost during the thousand year period of the above, and what happens to the saved during this same period. The bold writing refers to the lost. The writings in italics, refer to the saved. Let us examine these scriptures to see what is transpiring during this thousand year period.
Verses one through three, are referring of course to the leader of the lost, Satan himself. During this thousand year period, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit. We will discuss just what the bottomless pit is after we finish with the thousand year period. Not only is Satan bound during this thousand years, but he is not able to deceive the nations anymore during this same time. The scriptures themselves will tell us why this is so.
Verse four, switches the topic to that of the saved during this same thousand years. It states that the judgment was given unto them. The saints then, are involved in the work of judgment during this thousand year period. Paul makes reference to this event in 1 Corinthians.
I Corinthians 4 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
I Corinthians 6 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Of course this judgment cannot be about who will, or will not have eternal life. This question has already been answered, since the saved are in heaven with Christ judging the world. This is why the saints are caught up in the air to meet Christ when He returns, and will ever be with Him. During this thousand years, the saints are in heaven with Christ who has taken them there (Jn. 14:1-3). Later, the wicked will surround the beloved city, or New Jerusalem, apparently after it descends from heaven down to earth (Rev. 21:1-5), at the end of the thousand years.
The judgment that the saints are involved in is apparently for the purpose of understanding why, or why not, certain people are, or are not in heaven with the saved. No doubt God will answer all the questions of the saints during these thousand years. Surely there will be questions from the saints regarding who is, and who is not there. In the end though, every knee will bow and confess that Christ is the righteous judge of all (Rom. 14:10&11, Php. 2:9-11).
Verse five points out that the rest of the dead, that is those who were not saved, did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Then it says that this is the first resurrection. That is not to say that the rest of the dead not living again for a thousand years is the first resurrection, for this would make no sense at all. But rather, that those who were involved in judging the world during this thousand years were part of the first resurrection, that is, the resurrection of the saved.
Verse six says that those who are saved and take part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy. It also points out that the second death will have no power over them. For them, death has been swallowed up in victory, in and through their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. They shall be priests of God and reign with Him during this thousand year period.
Verses seven through fifteen point out what will happen to the wicked at the end of this thousand year period. This begins with Satan being let loose again to deceive the nations. In order for this to take place, the lost who have been dead during this thousand year period (verse 5), must be resurrected. Thus having died once already, at Christ’s second coming (Luke 17:28-30, 2 Th. 2:8, Rev. 6:14-17), they will die again, the second death, when they come up on the beloved city with their leader, Satan. That both the saved, and the wicked will be resurrected, was pointed out by Christ Himself when here on earth.
John 5 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The resurrection of life is at the beginning of the thousand years. The resurrection of damnation is at the end of the thousand years.
So now, the wicked surround the beloved city, and fire comes down from God, and devours them (verse 9). This is the lake of fire, where the Devil, and the Beast, and the False prophet are. It is where all those whose names are not written in the book of life will end up, and die the second death (verses 13-15). The book of life, from which all these people were judged, must be the book that the saints were examining during this thousand year period. This would be the judgment that they were involved in (verses 11&12).
Now to the definition of the bottomless pit into which Satan was cast. The definition of which, will reveal that the lost are dead during this thousand year period. Let us look at some scriptures to see what a bottomless pit might represent.
Job 17 13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. 14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. 15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? 16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.
Psalm 30 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Proverbs 1 11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: 12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:
Isaiah 38 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go downinto the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Jeremiah 41 7 And it was so, when they came into the midst of the city, that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah slew them, and cast them into the midst of the pit, he, and the men that were with him.
9 Now the pit wherein Ishmael had cast all the dead bodies of the men, whom he had slain because of Gedaliah, was it which Asa the king had made for fear of Baasha king of Israel: and Ishmael the son of Nethaniah filled it with them that were slain.
In the bible, a pit is very often associated with the grave, or a place to put the dead. A bottomless pit then, would undoubtedly represent an enormous grave, filled with countless people. If the bible then, tells us that all the lost will be slain when Christ returns the second time, which it does, then this world would be one massive grave, with the dead bodies of countless millions strewn all over it. This is in fact where Satan is bound for this thousand years, while the saved are in heaven going over the book of life, he is here with nothing but the dead. Thus Satan can no longer deceive the nations during this thousand years, for there are no nations, or peoples to deceive. Jeremiah speaks of the world in this condition.
Jer 25: 30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.
Jer 4: 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Isaiah not only spoke of this condition of the earth, but prophesied of the very things we are discussing.
Isaiah 14 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Though all the kings, and people will be slain, yet Satan will not join them in burial. Though he be in the pit with them, the bottomless pit, yet he will not be given the rest of the sleep of the dead. He will live for a thousand years alone with no one to deceive, and nothing to do but ponder the effects of the works of his own hands. Ever looking forward to the judgment, and his destruction at the end of the thousand years.
Isaiah 24 18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
Here again, Isaiah is referring to the destruction of the earth, and the death of the wicked. When the wicked are gathered together in the pit, that is dead, and shut up in death as in prison (Job3:11-18, Isa. 53:8), then they will be visited after many days. That many days would be the thousand years that we are discussing, and it will not be well for them when they are visited.
Revelation 21 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
I want to be in that city, don’t you.
Y. b. in C. Keith
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Keith,
I think I may have just made an interesting discovery. In my bible Revelation 20:2 makes reference to 2Peter 2:4 .......
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. END
It appears that what some may view as a future event in the book of Revelation could actually be a past or even a present event. It has been my understanding that the book of Revelation contains past, present, and future events as well as symbolic and literal expressions. It is also my understanding that the book of Revelation doesnt necessarily have a strict chronological sequence of events from start to finish.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi Keith,
I think I just learned something from your posts........this 1000 yr reign that many people interpret as a time period where Jesus makes a physical presence on earth is difficult to reconcile with passages like Peters that describe the end with the elements burning with a fervent heat......... for many people then the natural tendency would be to ask the question ......how then could Jesus be reigning on the earth?if there is no earth??????
Ok, now on this train of though I noticed that you described the 1000 yr reign as to take place in Heaven........that is the part I am having a difficult time with right now in my study. In Revelation 20:4 the words "and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" are found......but later in vs. 8 the words "and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth" are found.
My question then is........if the 1000yr reign follows the destruction of the earth, then how is it that in the book of Revelation the earth is spoken of again after this 1000 yr. time period has expired?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Keith
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quote:
Rev.1
[10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
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That is all.....
Thanks WildB. I hadn't noticed that before. Or if I have, I had forgotten. Maybe the shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God, are all the same thing, the voice of God. God is certainly not limited as we are. In the same verses His voice is described as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Y. b. in C. Keith.
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Keith
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quote:
They are two seperate events.
The Pretribulation RAPTURE of the
Church (I Thes. 4:13-18; Titus 2:13,14;
I Cor. 15:51-53; Phil. 3:20,21).
The personal, premillennial RETURN
OF CHRIST to reign on earth (Zech.
14:4,9; Acts 1:10,11; Rev. 19:11-16;
20:4-6).
The cause of your confusion is that there are two separate events. The second coming of Christ, at which time the dead in Christ will be raised and caught up in the air with the living in Christ to ever be with the Lord. At which time also the wicked will be destroyed. It is at this time that the saved will go to heaven with Christ for one thousand years.
At the end of this thousand years the seat of heaven and all creation will be moved to this earth, at which time the new Jerusalem will descend out of heaven to be on earth when God will create a new heaven and a new earth. At this time also, the wicked dead are raised and burned in the lake of fire which will purge the earth and all creation of sin, and sinners, forever more.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Satan is bound for the thousand years that the saints are in heaven doing the work of judgment. He can no longer deceive the nations, because there is no one left alive for him to deceive. The wicked will not live again until the end of the thousand years when they will be raised to face the judgment decided for them during the thousand years. Punishment will be by fire, in the lake of fire. As soon as they are raised again, Satan is also let loose to deceive again. They cannot do anything but be deceived, because this is what they have chosen.
1 Cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
II Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The pretrib rapture theory is a dangerous delusion. There is no secret or pretrib rapture which leaves people with a second chance to get right with God. It creates a false sense of security for those who might think they will have a second chance if they miss the rapture. Many may even wait to see if it is true before they make a commitment, which of course will be to late. This is the devil’s plan, and hope. This futuristic interpretation comes the devil’s very own church, the church of Rome. It’s purpose is to remove the pointing finger of biblical prophecy away from itself, and lull the world into a false sense of security so that as many as possible might be destroyed.
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Come out, come out of her.
Y. b. in C. Keith
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WildB
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Rev.1
[10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Keith
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1Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
CHAPTER 51 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
There is no indication in the above verses that anything more than one event is being discussed. The above verses clearly lay out the order in which this event will transpire. There is no secret about it. The Lord descends from heaven first, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God. Do you think that no one will here these things? We already have an example of the trump of God in the scriptures when God descended upon mount Sinai, it was anything but secret. Observe the following-
Exod 19: 13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount. 14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes. 15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives. 16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
Exod 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
The above is just a small scale of what will transpire the next time God descends to earth.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
This is the event that Paul is referring to in 1 Thess. 4:13- 5:3. First, before anyone is raised, or anyone meets the Lord in the air, the Lord will shout with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God. This is no secret event, though it will certainly be a surprise to those who did not believe in it.
After the Lord descends to earth with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God, then the dead in Christ rise first. The scripture clearly points out that before anyone is caught up in the air to be with the Lord, the dead in Christ will rise first. Again, what, will nobody notice this event transpiring? That is an absurd idea. These things will be witnessed by all on the day of the Lord when the saved will be delivered, and the world will be destroyed.
Paul’s reference to the day of the Lord in chapter five, is itself a reference to the things which he had just discussed in chapter four. They are the same event. The second coming, and the day of the Lord are the same event. It is at this time that the dead in Christ will be raised and together with the living in Christ, they will go to be with the Lord. The wicked though, will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming.
II Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Again, in the above verses the Apostle Paul clearly points out that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him, do not take place until the things mentioned in the verses above have already transpired. Your pre-trib theory simply cannot be true, if the above is also true. Paul here again is clearly teaching that the coming of the Lord, the resurrection and our gathering together unto Him, and the destruction of the wicked all transpire at the same time. The wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming, which is the salvation of the saints which are awaiting the same.
2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Here again Peter tells us that the day of the Lord will come as a surprise, and the world will be destroyed at that time. He says that as believers we should look for, and hasten the coming of the day of God in which the world will be destroyed, because we are looking for a new heaven, and new earth, wherein righteousness dwells. Why would he tell believers to look for this, when they should really be looking to be taken out of the world before it is ever destroyed? Are you not one of those above that twist the words of Paul out of their proper context to make them say what they wish?
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus Himself says that it is after the tribulation that He will appear. After the tribulation He will send forth His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, to gather all of His elect from around the world. This is the same event that Paul describes in 1Thess. 4:13-5:3. The trumpet sound being the signal for the delivorence of God’s people from death, via the resurrection, tribulation for those who are alive when He returns, and destruction for the wicked.
I Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Why would any believer be ashamed at Christ’s appearing, or coming, if they were already in heaven with Him before He came or appeared, as you suggest?
I Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
What, those who are taken as you suggest, before Christ appears, will not be like Him until He does appear?
1 Tim 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Why does he say in the above until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, if we are to be taken secretly out of this world to be with Christ before His appearing? It is simply because he, as well as the rest of the new testament writers, did not believe that we will be secretly taken out of this world before Christ appears. Thus, they all admonished us to look for the second coming of Christ as the time of our deliverance.
2 Tim 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul expects to receive his reward at Christ’s appearing, as well as the rest of us.
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Again, why doesn’t it say, looking for our blessed secret disappearance from this world, to be with Christ, before the tribulation?
1 Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
More of the same.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
The above is a clear reference to the resurrection and the deliverance of God’s people during a great time of trouble, not before it. Those who cling to the secret rapture, and the futurist interpretation of biblical prophecy, are playing into the hands of the church of Rome, the MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. The futurist interpretation of biblical prophecy completely bypasses the history of the church of Rome, the largest and longest lasting apostate Christian persecuting power this world has ever seen. It was invented by the church of Rome to accomplish this very task. Come out of her my people, for why will you receive of her plagues.
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Y. b. in C. Keith
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Carol Swenson
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Eden
If you use Strong's Concordance to look up a verse from the King James Version, then of course you're going to get the King James Version's Greek numbers!
NASB:
2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
(NASB w/ Strong's) 2 Thessalonians 2:2 that you not be quickly<5030> shaken<4531> from your composure<3563> or<3366> be disturbed<2360> either<3383> by a spirit<4151> or<3383> a message<3056> or<3383> a letter<1992> as if<5613> from us, to the effect<5613> that the day<2250> of the Lord <2962> has come<1764>.
New Testament Greek for ' of the Lord'
2962 kurios {koo'-ree-os}
from kuros (supremacy); TDNT - 3:1039,486; n m
AV - Lord 667, lord 54, master 11, sir 6, Sir 6, misc 4; 748
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
(strong's number 2962)
Other translations also say "day of the Lord" rather than "day of Christ", which is a mistranslation.
NRSV:
2not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.
NCV:
2Do not become easily upset in your thinking or afraid if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone may say this in a prophecy or in a message or in a letter as if it came from us.
KJV:
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
ISVNT:
2not to be so quickly upset£ or alarmed when someone claims that we said£ either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the day of the Lord has already come.
ESV:
2not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
DRB:
2that you be not easily moved from your sense nor be terrified, neither by spirit nor by word nor by epistle. as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand.
DNT:
2that ye be not soon shaken in mind,£ nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.
ASV:
2to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;
RSV:
2not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
MSNT:
2not readily to become unsettled in mind or troubled—either by any pretended spiritual revelation or by any message or letter claiming to have been sent by us—through fancying that the day of the Lord is now here.
ICB:
2Do not become easily upset in your thinking or afraid if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone may say this in a prophecy or in a message. Or you may read it in a letter that someone tells you came from us.
NLT:
2Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.
CEV:
2not to be easily upset or disturbed by people who claim that the Lord has already come. They may say that they heard this directly from the Holy Spirit, or from someone else, or even that they read it in one of our letters.
HCSB:
2not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit£ or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
TEV:
2not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter.
GWT:
2Don’t get upset right away or alarmed when someone claims that we said through some spirit, conversation, or letter that the day of the Lord has already come.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Wild B,
I used the words "rapture theory" because it implies that there will be two separate events ......a rapture and a second coming. There is no conclusive proof for that interpretation of scripture. Some apparently make that conclusion because "the coming of Christ" is described in various ways in different parts of scripture, but they overlook the possibility that the various descriptions could be a "collage of descriptions" of a single event instead of descriptions of two separate events.
With love in Christ, Daniel
They are two seperate events.
The Pretribulation RAPTURE of the
Church (I Thes. 4:13-18; Titus 2:13,14;
I Cor. 15:51-53; Phil. 3:20,21).
The personal, premillennial RETURN
OF CHRIST to reign on earth (Zech.
14:4,9; Acts 1:10,11; Rev. 19:11-16;
20:4-6).
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That is all.....
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oneinchrist
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Hi Wild B,
I used the words "rapture theory" because it implies that there will be two separate events ......a rapture and a second coming. There is no conclusive proof for that interpretation of scripture. Some apparently make that conclusion because "the coming of Christ" is described in various ways in different parts of scripture, but they overlook the possibility that the various descriptions could be a "collage of descriptions" of a single event instead of descriptions of two separate events.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Eden,
From what I gather, the "rapture" theory proponents insist that they are not on the earth at the time of the great tribulation.
If Jesus speaks of a time of great tribulation in Matthew 24:21 which precedes the time that the elect are gathered together in Matthew 24:31 .......it doesnt appear that believers are secretly taken up before the great trib.
Jesus' words seem to be clear and concise on this mattter, but if one relies on an interpretation of Revelation they have at least 10 interpretations to pick from. More often than not I imagine that people are going to go along with whatever their church teaches. Surprisingly, there are some church pastors who insist that you agree with their end-time view before you are allowed to become a member.
I guess my question is.........are there 2 "great tribulations" also?
With love in Christ, Daniel
The "rapture" is no theory.
I Thes. 4:13-18; Titus 2:13,14;
I Cor. 15:51-53; Phil. 3:20,21).
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That is all.....
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
From what I gather, the "rapture" theory proponents insist that they are not on the earth at the time of the great tribulation.
If Jesus speaks of a time of great tribulation in Matthew 24:21 which precedes the time that the elect are gathered together in Matthew 24:31 .......it doesnt appear that believers are secretly taken up before the great trib.
Jesus' words seem to be clear and concise on this mattter, but if one relies on an interpretation of Revelation they have at least 10 interpretations to pick from. More often than not I imagine that people are going to go along with whatever their church teaches. Surprisingly, there are some church pastors who insist that you agree with their end-time view before you are allowed to become a member.
I guess my question is.........are there 2 "great tribulations" also?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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Carol Swenson, quoting Unger, wrote quote:
In 2 Thessalonians 2:2 the KJV has the day of Christ incorrectly for the Day of the Lord. The day of Christ is not the Day of the Lord.
And again in another place quote:
The theme of this epistle, obscured by the mistranslation of the KJV in 2:2, “the day of Christ is at hand,” is correctly rendered in NASB “The day of the Lord has come.”
Contrary to Carol Swenson's and Unger's assertions, these are NOT mistranslations, but accurately translate the Greek underneath:
Strong's Concordace
2Thes 2:1
Now 1161 we beseech 2065 you 5209, brethren 80, by 5228 the coming 3952 of our 2257 Lord 2962 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547, and 2532 [by] our 2257 gathering together 1997 unto 1909 him 846,
2Thes 2:2
That 1519 ye 5209 be 4531 0 not 3361 soon 5030 shaken 4531 in 575 mind 3563, or 3383 be troubled 2360 , neither 3383 by 1223 spirit 4151, nor 3383 by 1223 word 3056, nor 3383 by 1223 letter 1992 as 5613 from 1223 us 2257, as 5613 that 3754 the day 2250 of Christ 5547 is at hand 1764.
Strong's Concordance
5547. Christos, from 5548; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:--Christ.
By contrast, the Greek word for "Lord" is "kurios". The Holy Spirit specifically used christos in 2 Thessalonians 2:2, Unger and Carol Swenson notwithstanding.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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Thessalonians, Second Epistle to
The second epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians was written to correct the erroneous notion among the Christians at Thessalonica that the persecutions from which they were suffering were those of “the great and awesome day of the Lord” (Joel 2:31) from which they had been taught to expect deliverance by “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him” (2 Thessalonians 2:1). The theme of this epistle, obscured by the mistranslation of the KJV in 2:2, “the day of Christ is at hand,” is correctly rendered in NASB “The day of the Lord has come.”
Purpose
Second Thessalonians was written to instruct the Thessalonians concerning the day of Christ “and our gathering together to Him” (2 Thessalonians 2:1) and to settle them in their conviction that in the day of Christ the Lord would appear to translate the living saints and to raise the deceased ones, so that actually the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is arguing for a pretribulation out-taking of the church as the Body of Christ.
In 2:1-12 he outlines the events of the Day of the Lord that will occur after the out-taking of the church.
Plan
(1) The apostle comforts the Thessalonians in their sufferings (1:4-10). He argues for the imminency of the coming of Christ for His own (2:1). (2) He stresses the fact that the Day of the Lord, so voluminously prophesied in the OT, will not arrive until the apostasy has set in and the “man of lawlessness” has been made manifest (2:2-10). (3) He urges the Thessalonians to faithfulness in view of the coming of Christ for His own (2:13–3:5). (4) He warns the idle and the disorderly to be properly adjusted to the doctrine taught (3:6-15). (5) He shows them how to distinguish his epistles from those of forgers (3:17).
(Unger)
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Carol Swenson
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Day of Christ
This is the period connected with reward and blessing of saints at the coming of Christ for His own. (The Rapture). The expression occurs in 1 Corinthians 1:8; 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; Philippians 1:6, 10; 2:16.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:2 the KJV has the day of Christ incorrectly for the Day of the Lord. The day of Christ is not the Day of the Lord.
The latter is connected with earth judgments (Revelation 4:1–19:16), which will come after the out-taking of the church, the Body of Christ, and its glorification and judgment for works at the judgment seat of Christ. The Day of the Lord (Isaiah 2:12; Revelation 19:11-21) cannot occur until after the church is completed (2 Thessalonians 2:2-12).
Day of the Lord
This is the protracted period commencing with the second advent of Christ in glory and ending with the cleansing of the heavens and the earth by fire preparatory to the new heavens and the new earth of the eternal state (Isaiah 65:17-19; 66:22; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1).
The Day of the Lord as a visible manifestation of Christ upon the earth is to be distinguished from the day of Christ.
The latter is connected with the glorification of the saints and their reward in heaven prior to their return with Christ to inaugurate the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord thus comprehends specifically the closing phase of the Tribulation and extends through the millennial kingdom. Apocalyptic judgments (Revelation 4:1–19:6) precede and introduce the Day of the Lord.
(Unger)
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Eden
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WildB wrote quote:
The title of the post should be , "The Rapture according to Eden"
as he try's to divide the word for us according to his misunderstanding.
I'm an abject failure.
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Carol Swenson
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1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 (NLT)
9 For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us. 10 Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever.
The Rapture has two aspects, salvation and wrath. For the believer it means the consummation of his salvation in heaven. For the unbeliever, it means the ushering in of a time of wrath on earth.
Since we are of the day, God did not appoint us to the wrath which He will pour out during the Tribulation Period, but rather to salvation in its fullest sense—freedom forever from the very presence of sin.
Some understand wrath here to refer to the punishment which unbelievers will suffer in hell. Of course it is true that God has not appointed us to that, but it is gratuitous to introduce that thought here. Paul is not talking about hell, but about future events on earth. The context deals with the Day of the Lord—the greatest period of wrath in the history of man on earth (Matt. 24:21). We do not have an appointment with the executioner but with the Savior.
Some say that the Tribulation is the time of Satan’s wrath (Rev. 12:12), not the wrath of God. They say that the church will experience the wrath of Satan, but will be delivered from the wrath of God at the Second Coming of Christ. However, the following verses speak of the wrath of God and of the Lamb, and their setting is during the Tribulation Period: Revelation 6:16, 17; 14:9, 10, 19; 15:1, 7; 16:1, 19
Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever
5:10 This verse emphasizes the tremendous price our Lord Jesus Christ paid to deliver us from wrath and insure our salvation. He died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
There are two ways of understanding the expression whether we wake or sleep. Some scholars understand it to mean “living or dead” at the time of the Rapture. They point out that there will be two classes of believers at that time—those who have died in Christ, and those who are still living. So the thought would be that whether we are among the living or the dead at the time of Christ’s return, we shall live together with Him. Christians who die lose nothing. The Lord explained this to Martha: “I am the resurrection and the life: he who believes in Me, though he may die [i.e., a Christian who dies before the Rapture], he shall live [he will be raised from among the dead]. And whoever lives and believes in Me [a believer who is alive at the time of the Rapture] shall never die ... ” (John 11:25, 26).
The other view held by scholars is that wake or sleep means “watchful or worldly.” In other words, Paul is saying that whether we are spiritually alert or carnally indifferent to spiritual things, we will be caught up to meet the Lord. Our eternal salvation does not depend on our spiritual keenness during the closing moments of our time on earth. If truly converted, we will live together with Him when He comes again, whether we are on the tiptoes of expectancy or in the prone position of slumber. Our spiritual condition will determine our rewards, but our salvation depends on faith in Christ alone.
(Believer's Bible Commentary)
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
WildB wrote quote:
The title of the post should be , "The Rapture according to Eden"
as he try's to divide the word for us according to his misunderstanding.
Well, of course, but that can be said about ALL OUR POSTS, it's ALL according to Michael Harrison and according to Carol Swenson and according to Cornelius Stam.
We read the Bible and what we currently get out of the Bible is what we get out of it and we speak about that, for now, until a better understanding comes along, if at all.
I am an open-minded student of the Bible and will adjust my current thinking on an as-needed basis. But currently the above is my view of the Rapture.
love according to, Eden
To me, your mixing and trying to match, aint study.
For its very confusing and well outside the excepted truth's of the Bible properly divided.
And your grouping of Michael Harrison with Carol Swenson and Cornelius Stam, as it matters to the truth, is just plain sillyness.
Is that your mission?
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That is all.....
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Eden
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WildB wrote quote:
The title of the post should be , "The Rapture according to Eden"
as he try's to divide the word for us according to his misunderstanding.
Well, of course, but that can be said about ALL OUR POSTS, it's ALL according to Michael Harrison and according to Carol Swenson and according to Cornelius Stam.
We read the Bible and what we currently get out of the Bible is what we get out of it and we speak about that, for now, until a better understanding comes along, if at all.
I am an open-minded student of the Bible and will adjust my current thinking on an as-needed basis. But currently the above is my view of the Rapture.
love according to, Eden
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WildB
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The title of the post should be , "The Rapture according to Eden"
as he try's to divide the word for us according to his misunderstanding.
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That is all.....
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Eden
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THE RAPTURE
Many Christians have been taught that the Lord will descend to the earth for a second time at which time the believers in Christ will be caught up in the so-called rapture—a catching away of the saints to meet the Lord in the air, as described in the following verses of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17:
4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also who sleep in Jesuswill God bring with him.
Who does God bring with Him? Those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. It does not say that those who remain alive on earth will at that time come with Him.
But let me continue with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:
4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them who are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
But the Bible pattern instead seems to teach that the rapture of the saints and the destruction of the earth and its people will occur simultaneously at the very end of the world. To substantiate this view, I begin by quoting from Revelation 19:11,13:
19:11 And I [John] saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He does judge and make war.
19:13 ...and His name is called The Word of God.
From John 1:1,14 we know that the Word of God is the Lord Yeshua Ha-Messiah [the Lord Jesus Christ], for John 1:1,14 say:
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...
So from this we know that in Rev.19:11,13 above the Word of God is the Lord Yeshua, who rides on a white horse in heaven.
Then the next verse, Rev.19:14, says:
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Who are these armies of the Lord who follow Him and wear fine linen? Rev.19:7-8 identifies one group who wears fine linen as the saints in heaven and that this fine linen represents righteousness:
19:7 ...for the marriage of the Lamb is come and his wife has made herself ready.
19:8 And to [His wife] was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen...for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.
Secondly, Rev.15:6 identifies the angels as a group which also wears fine linen:
15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple...clothed in pure and white linen...
So the armies of the Lord which follow the Lord in heaven on white horses in Rev.19:14 above are the saints and the angels.
Matthew 25:31 then says that the angels will come with the Lord at the LORD’s coming:
25:31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...
1 Thessalonians 3:13 further says that the saints will also come with the LORD at the LORD’s coming:
3:13 ...at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
But who are all His saints who come with the Lord? Do they include the saints who are still alive on the earth near the endtime, or does it only include the saints who are already in heaven near the endtime? Obviously, if the saints on earth are also included, then the earthly saints would first have to be caught up to meet the Lord so that they can then be incorporated into the heavenly armies of the Lord.
Let's therefore consider next which saints are meant when 1Thes.3:13 above says:
3:13 ...at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
First, 1Thes.4:17 says:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The above verse obviously refers to saints who are still alive on the earth. But just prior to 1Thes.4:17, in 1Thes.4:15, it states that we remain alive on the earth unto the coming of the Lord:
4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The word coming in the phrase unto the coming is the Greek word parousia, which is a Greek technical term which is used when a powerful king or general came to make his appearance before a newly conquered city’s people. An Old Testament example of this is 2 Samuel 13:26-30, in which King David's nephew, General Joab, had fought against the city of Amman, Jordan, and when Joab had nearly completed the conquest of Amman, he sent word to King David who was still in Jerusalem to now come quickly to Amman for King David’s triumphal entry into the city, at which time all the inhabitants of the conquered city were required to shout their allegiance to the new king:
13:28 [Joab speaking:] Now therefore [King David], gather the rest of the people together, and encamp against the city, and take it; lest I take the city, and it be called after my [Joab’s] name.
So King David made his triumphal appearance into Amman. Such a triumphal appearance, or coming, is called in Greek a king’s parousia, and parousia is the word which is used throughout the New Testament for the LORD’s coming, and is also used in 1Thes.4:15 above, which says:
4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Greek, parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
This coming [parousia] of the Lord therefore must refer to the final coming of the Lord when He comes to take possession of the earth and when the people of the world will be required to shout that King Jesus is Lord, as is recorded in Philippians 2:11:
2:11 And every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord...
Furthermore, Matt.24:27 and 2Thes.2:8 say that this coming [parousia] of the Lord will be as bright as lightning which the whole world will see, so it won’t be a secret coming:
24:27 For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even unto the west; so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord...shall destroy with the brightness of His coming [parousia].
In addition, 2 Peter 3:11-12 says that when this coming [parousia] occurs, the heavens will be on fire, and the elements shall melt:
3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and Godliness.
3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming [parousia] of the Lord, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.
Now note this: 2Pet.3:11-12 above explains that we, the believers on earth, are looking for the coming [parousia], and that at this coming [parousia], the heavens shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. This coming [parousia] must thus happen at the very end of the world, because it will cause the earth's elements to begin to melt.
For this reason, Matt.24:3 likewise says that the coming [parousia] of the Lord occurs at the end of the world:
24:3 [The disciples asked the Lord] What shall be the sign of Your coming [parousia], and of the end of the world?
We should furthermore note that 1Thes.4:15 said that we will be alive on the earth until that coming [parousia]:
4:15 ...we which are alive and remain [on the earth] unto the coming [parousia] of the Lord...
And then two verses after that, in 1Thes.4:17, it says that we who are alive and remain are caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This catching up must therefore take place at the bright coming [parousia] of the Lord because we are at least on the earth until His bright coming, which will cause the elements of the earth to melt (2Pet.3:12).
But who then are all the saints in 1Thes.3:13, quoted again below, who come with the Lord at His Parousia, if all the saints doesn't include the saints who remain on earth until His coming:
3:13 ...at the coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
The saints who come with the Lord at His Parousia must be the saints who have died in Jesus over the last two millennia and who have gone to be with the Lord in heaven, as 1Thes.4:14-15 affirms:
4:14 ...even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
4:15 For this we say...that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will not prevent [precede] them who are asleep.
Now, John 11:25-26 teaches that saints who die believing in Jesus will never die but will live:
1:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he that believes in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.”
1:26 And whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
The saints therefore who have died in Jesus are all alive with the Lord in heaven right now, as the Lord also said to the thief hanging next to Him on the cross in Luke 23:43:
23:43 Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.
So all the saints who will come with the Lord at His coming [parousia] can only refer to the saints who have died in Jesus and went immediately to be alive with the Lord in heaven, because we will be still alive and remain on earth, waiting for the LORD’s bright coming which will also catch the heavens and the elements on fire.
AT THE LAST TRUMPET
WE ARE CHANGED FROM
CORRUPTIBLE TO INCORRUPTIBLE
I’m indebted to Ellis H. Skolfield for helping me understand the following segment relating to the last trumpet.
The second group which comes with the Lord at His coming [parousia] are the angels, as Matt.25:31 says:
25:31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...
Additionally, Matt.24:31 mentions that when the Lord sends forth His angels, it will be with a great trumpet:
24:31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds...
Which great trumpet is this? This must be the same trumpet with which the Lord Jesus descends in 1Thes.4:16:
4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God...
1 Corinthians 15:52 further defines which trumpet of God this is:
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible; and we shall be changed.
So note: when the last trumpet sounds in 1Cor.15:52, the dead are raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. And when the Lord descended with the trumpet of God in 1Thes.4:16-17, the dead were also raised:
4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven...with the trumpet of God...
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The last trumpet of 1Cor.15:52 must therefore be the same trumpet as the trumpet of God of 1Thes.4:16-17, because at both trumpets we are changed from corruptible [mortal] to incorruptible [immortal] and we shall be changed.
But what is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15:52? Revelation 8:12 says that there were seven trumpets which were given to seven angels:
8:2 And I [John] saw the seven angels which stood before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.
The first of these seven trumpets sounds at Rev.8:7, the second trumpet sounds at Rev.8:8, and so on, until the seventh trumpet sounds at Rev.11:15. And after that, there are no more trumpets to sound. Obviously, the first, second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth trumpets of Rev.8:2-9:13 cannot be the last trumpet because there is still another trumpet left to sound; therefore the seventh trumpet of Rev.11:15 must be the last trumpet because no more trumpets sound after that.
And indeed, that the seventh trumpet of Rev.11:15 must be the same trumpet as the last trumpet of 1Cor.15:52 and as the trumpet of God of 1Thes.4:16 is borne out by the text of Rev.11:15:
11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying: the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ; and He shall reign forever and ever.
So note now: at the trumpet of God of 1Thes.4:16 we are caught up immortal; at the last trumpet of 1Cor.15:52 we are changed to immortal, and at the seventh trumpet of Rev.11:15, the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of our Lord. All these trumpets must have the same event in mind, namely, it is the trumpet at which we are caught up and which starts eternal life for the believers.
It furthermore follows from this that we will be on earth during the first six plague-filled trumpets of Revelation, because the kingdoms of this earth don’t become the kingdoms of the Lord until the seventh trumpet sounds.
WE WILL MEET THE LORD
IN THE AIR AND WILL RETURN
BACK TO EARTH WITH HIM
1Thes.4:17 furthermore says that we are going to meet the Lord in the air:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I’m indebted to Dr. James McKeever for pointing out that the Greek word for meet in 1Thes.4:17 above is apantesis [see Strong’s ref. 529]. This word is used only three times in the New Testament, and means “we go out to meet an important arriving person, and then we turn around and accompany that person back to where we came from.” This is very important to understand, because we go up to meet the arriving Lord in the air, and then we turn around with the descending Lord and go down to earth with Him as part of His army as He comes in His Parousia to destroy the earth.
A good example of the Greek usage of this word apantesis occurs at Acts 28:13-16. The Apostle Paul had come from Jerusalem as a “prisoner” to appear before Caesar himself, and the boat in which Paul had been taken landed in Puteoli, a port in the northern end of the Bay of Naples, and from there Paul’s party went overland towards Rome, as Acts 28:13-14 says:
28:13 And from [Syracuse] we fetched a compass, and came to Rhegium; and after one day the south wind blew, and we came the next day to Puteoli.
28:14 Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days; and so we went toward Rome.
Now, when the brethren at Rome heard that Paul was coming to Rome and that Paul had landed in Puteoli, then the brethren came out from Rome as far as Appii Forum to meet [Greek, apantesis] Paul, as Acts 28:15 says:
28:15 And from there [meaning, from Rome], when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet [Greek, apantesis] us as far as Appii Forum and The Three Taverns; whom, when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
And now note: the brethren who had come from Rome to apantesis Paul now turned around with Paul and accompanied Paul back to Rome from where the brethren had come in Acts 28:16:
28:16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard; but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
Thus the Roman brethren turned around after meeting [apantesis] Paul and accompanied Paul back to Rome.
Another example of apantesis is found in Matt.25:1-10, where ten virgins go out to meet [apantesis] the bridegroom who is on his way to the wedding chamber:
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened to 10 virgins, who took their lamps, and went forth to meet [apantesis] the bridegroom.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, “Behold, the bridegroom comes; go out to meet [apantesis] him.
25:10 And while [the foolish virgins] went to buy [oil for their lamps], the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage; and the door was shut.
From Matt.25:1-10 above we see that the virgins are the ones who go out to meet [apantesis] the oncoming bridegroom, and then they go in the direction that the bridegroom is going, namely to the marriage chamber. It is not the bridegroom who turns around and accompanies the virgins, but it is the virgins who turn around and accompany the bridegroom to where he is going.
So let’s look at 1Thes.4:15,17 again to see how meet [apantesis] is used there, because that’s the verse in which we are caught up to meet [apantesis] the Lord in the air, and that is the verse which most Christians have always thought means that they’ll go from earth to meet the Lord in the air and then go on to heaven to be with the Lord:
4:15 For this we say...that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [parousia] of the Lord will not prevent them who are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven...with the trumpet of God...
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; so shall we ever be with the Lord.
In 1Thes.4:17 above, the word meet is again the Greek word apantesis, and that can mean only one thing: that first we are caught up from the earth to meet [apantesis] the Lord in the air, and then we turn around and accompany the Lord back down to the mount of Olives on earth, because the Lord is going to the earth for His parousia, to take possession of the earth.
Apantesis therefore does not mean that we meet the Lord in the air and then the Lord turns around and we go back to heaven with Him, because apantesis means that the ones who come out to meet the important oncoming guest do the turning around and accompany the oncoming guest back to earth where we came from. This apantesis or catching up to meet the Lord in the air must therefore occur at the very end of the world, because that is also the parousia of the Lord which will also melt the elements of the earth with the brightness of His coming.
THE BIBLE PATTERN IS ALWAYS
THAT SALVATION OF THE BELIEVERS
AND DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED
HAPPEN AT THE VERY SAME TIME
In the Bible, the pattern is always that salvation and destruction happen on the same day, and are never separated by any periods such as 3½ years or 7 years or any pre- tribulation period. This pattern of salvation and destruction happening on the same day is found consistently throughout the Old Testament in the salvations and destructions such as those of Rahab, Lot, Noah, and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and Israel in Egypt just before the Exodus, and in many others.
Let’s first look at the account of Joshua and the conquest of Jericho in which Rahab and her entire family were saved, while everyone else in Jericho was being slain by the sword on the very same day.
At the conquest of Jericho, in Joshua 6:4, seven trumpets were also given to seven priests:
6:4 And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams’ horns; and the seventh day you shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets.
We will remember that in Revelation when the seventh or last trumpet was sounded, the kingdoms of the earth became the kingdoms of our Lord, and here also on the seventh day of going around Jericho, the priests were to sound the seven trumpets to get possession of Jericho.
But not only were trumpets sounded on the seventh day, Joshua also told the people of Israel to shout with a great shout:
6:5 And it shall come to pass, that...when you hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout, and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.
We will remember that in 1Thes.4:16, the Lord also will descend with a shout and with the trumpet of God:
4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...and with the trumpet of God...
But to continue with the account of Joshua and Rahab:
6:15 And it came to pass on the seventh day that...they compassed the city seven times.
6:16 And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, that Joshua said to the people, “Shout, for the Lord has given you the city.”
And then the destruction of the wicked began:
6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox and sheep and *** , with the edge of the sword.
6:24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein...
However, just before this destruction began, on the same day and during the same event, Rahab and her entire family were being saved, as is recorded in Josh.6:22:
6:22 But Joshua had said to the two men that had spied out the country, “Go into the harlot’s [Rahab’s] house, and bring out from there the woman, and all that she has, as you swore to her.”
6:23 And the young men that were spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brothers...and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel.
It was immediately following the collapse of the wall that the two spies went in and brought out Rahab and her entire family while the other Israelites ascended straight up before them and slew all the inhabitants in the city:
6:5 And it shall come to pass that...when you hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout, and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.
6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox and sheep and *** , with the edge of the sword.
6:23 And the young men that were spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brothers...and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel.
Thus, in the middle of the destruction, salvation was happening at the same time, and on the same day.
The LORD also said in Luke 17:29-30 that the day of His coming [parousia, when the elements of the earth would melt with fervent heat] will be like the days of Lot:
17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot, they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded.
17:29 But in the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed.
Lot was taken out of Sodom in a hurry by the angel of the LORD, and Lot was told by the angel to flee to the mountains, but Lot objected to going to the mountains and asked if he could instead enter the little city of Zoar which was on the same plain as Sodom and Gomorrha and Admah and Zeboiim (Gen.14:2). And the angel said to Lot about fleeing into Zoar:
19:21 See, I [the angel] have accepted you concerning this thing also [the fleeing into the little city Zoar on the same plain]; that I will not overthrow this city [Zoar] for which you have spoken.
19:22 Hurry, [Lot], escape there [the little city Zoar]; for I [the angel] cannot do anything until you are come there.
19:23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and Gomorrha brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven.
Lot was saved in that little city of Zoar on the same day that the destruction from the LORD came with fire and brimstone which rained on all the cities of the plain except on little Zoar which was right among those other cities of the plain.
And look at what Abraham saw when he looked toward the plain that day:
19:28 And [Abraham] looked toward Sodom and Gomorrha, and toward all the land of the plain and lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.
19:29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot dwelt.
It is again evident from this Bible pattern that salvation and destruction always happen on the same day, and no period of 3½ years or 7 years ever intervenes.
The LORD also said in Luke 17:26-27 that the days of His coming [parousia, when all the elements of the earth will melt with fervent heat] will be as in the days of Noah:
17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the Son of man.
17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
As with Rahab and Lot, Noah entered the ark on the same day that the flood came, which destroyed everyone else. Noah's ark floated right in among the waters which drowned the wicked while Noah and his family were being saved, as Gen.7:12-13 says:
7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah...into the ark.
Salvation and destruction thus again happened on the same day, and were not separated any period of time.
When the LORD sent the plague of flies upon Egypt, Exo.8:21-23 says that on the same day the flies were in all the houses of the Egyptians, but the LORD severed the land of Goshen where the Israelites dwelt, so that no flies were in Goshen:
8:21 I will send swarms of flies...into the houses of the Egyptians, and on the ground...
8:22 And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which My people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there...
8:23 And I will put a division between My people and your people; tomorrow shall this sign be.
Also, on the same day that there was the plague of the grievous murrain on the cattle of Egypt, there was no murrain on the cattle of His people Israel, as stated in Exo.9:3-4:
9:3 Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon your cattle...there shall be a very grievous murrain.
9:4 And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt; and there shall nothing die of all that is of the children of Israel.
On the same day that there was the plague of the hail on Egypt, there was no hail in Goshen where Israel dwelt, as stated in Exo.9:26:
9:26 Only in the land of Goshen where the children of Israel were, was there no hail.
On the same day that there was the plague of utter darkness on Egypt, there was light in the land of Goshen where Israel dwelt, as stated in Exo.10:22-23:
10:22 ...There was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt 3 days.
10:23 They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days; but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.
And lastly, on the same day that all the firstborn of the Egyptians were slain, the firstborn of the Israelites were not touched, as stated in Exo.11:5,7:
11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die.
11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue [i.e., lick his blood]...that you may know how that the LORD does put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
The following points may be made from the above scriptures:
The plagues came on the Egyptians on the same day that the Israelites were being saved from these plagues;
The LORD did not take the Israelites out of Egypt first and then put the plagues on the Egyptians;
The purpose of leaving the Israelites among the Egyptians and not take the Israelites out of Egypt first was to show the Egyptians that the LORD does put a difference between Egypt and Israel.
It is indeed for this latter reason that the LORD will also leave us among the unbelieving world until the very end, that the world may see that the LORD does put a difference between believers—the Israel of God, and the unbelievers—the wicked of the unbelieving world.
In the next example of the consistent Bible pattern that salvation and destruction happen on the same day, we turn to the three Hebrew men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who in the book of Daniel were cast into the middle of a burning fiery furnace, and while the fire was burning, the flame did not touch the Hebrews, but instead slew the men who threw the Hebrews into the fiery furnace, as is recorded in Daniel 3:19-22,27:
3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his face was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; therefore he spoke and commanded that they should heat the furnace seven times more than it was normally heated.
3:20 And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
3:21 Then these [Hebrew] men were bound in their coats, their socks, and their hats, and their other clothes, and were cast into the middle of the burning fiery furnace.
3:22 Therefore, because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men who took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
3:27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counselors, being gathered together, saw these [Hebrew] men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was a hair of their head singed, nor were their coats changed, nor had the smell of fire passed on them.
As with Rahab, Lot, Noah, and the Israelites in Egypt, the Hebrew men were saved right in the middle of the fire, while the other men were destroyed at the same time, and on the same day.
It is also noteworthy that the Hebrews were thrown into the middle of the fire with all their clothes on. As in Lot’s and Noah’s day the people ate, they drank, and gave in marriage, so the Hebrews were thrown in with all their clothes and hats on, which all speaks of a sudden salvation, and a sudden unexpected destruction, which all happened on the same day.
Indeed, Isaiah 43:2 mentions that people in the latter days will walk in a fire which will not touch them:
43:2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you; when you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, neither shall the flame kindle upon you.
That Isa.43:2 above refers to the endtime can be seen from the next verses, Isa.43:5-6, which say:
43:5 Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your seed from the East, and gather you from the West.
43:6 I will say to the North, give up, and to the South, keep not back...
This gathering of Israel of course began to happen in our time, when the LORD gathered the Israelites out of the nations where He had scattered them, and began to reassemble them in their own nation, Israel, in 1948.
What happened therefore to Rahab, Lot, Noah, the Israelites in Egypt, and to the three Hebrew men are types or Bible patterns designed to show us, the believers how we too will be saved, on the same day that the wicked will be destroyed, without any intervening period of any kind. On the same day, that is the Bible pattern.
This same Bible pattern is also mentioned in Malachi 4:1-3, which says that an oven will burn the wicked on the same day that we will walk on the ashes of those wicked:
4:1 For behold, the day comes that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that comes shall burn them up...
4:2 But unto you who fear My name shall the sun of righteousness arise...
4:3 And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD.
Notice the sequence that happens in the same day: the oven burns; the wicked become stubble; then [and only then] the sun of righteousness arises in us [i.e., eternal life, but not until after the wicked are burned]; and then we tread on the ashes of the burned the wicked with our feet.
This very same sequence is found in the New Testament in Matthew 13:39-43:
13:39 ...the harvest is the end of the world.
13:40 Therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
13:41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them that do wickedly.
13:42 And shall cast them in a furnace of fire...
13:43 Then [after the wicked are burned, and not until then] shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
That sequence is exactly as in Malachi 4:1-3 just mentioned above: after the wicked are burned to ashes, then the righteous are the only ones who remain in the kingdom of their Father, and with their new eternal bodies they shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The righteous are therefore not taken out of the earth; rather, the fire never kindled upon the righteous, as the LORD promised in Isa.43.
Let’s now look again at 1Thessalonians 4:17 with the light that we’ve gained from Malachi 4:1-3 and Matthew 13:39-43 above:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The little phrase, and remain, is often overlooked in our explanation of this verse, but that little phrase is completely compatible with all we’ve learned from Malachi 4 and Matthew 13. That it, it means that after the wicked are burned up and gathered out of the Father’s kingdom, we are still alive and remain as the only ones left standing alive on the earth in the kingdom of our Father, while the wicked have been reduced to ashes all around us, and only we are still alive and remain standing!
If this interpretation is correct, then that means one further thing: the catching up to meet the LORD in the air happens right after the wicked are burned by the brightness of the LORD’s coming and we are still alive and remain on the earth, at which time we are caught up to meet the LORD in the air, and so shall we ever be with the LORD. And, as we shall see shortly below, this will also have an impact on our traditional interpretation of several parables from the New Testament, which we shall consider next.
THE NEW TESTAMENT BIBLE PATTERNS ARE
CONSISTENT WITH THOSE OF THE OLD TESTAMENT,
THAT SALVATION OF THE BELIEVERS
AND DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED
HAPPEN ON THE SAME DAY
I next present evidence from the Lord’s parables, beginning with Matthew 25:31-46, and Matthew 13:47-49, which continue to support the Bible pattern that salvation and destruction happen on the same day and are not separated by any period whatsoever.
Note that in Matt.25:31-32 below, when the Lord comes with all His angels, He will sit on His throne of glory, and both the sheep and the goats are still together, and they are not yet separated from each other:
25:31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon His throne of glory.
25:32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations; and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Note that since all the people from the nations can still be separated like sheep from the goats at the very endtime when the Lord sits on His throne, then the sheep have to still be mixed in among the goats at the very endtime! Because, had the sheep gone up in an earlier rapture, then this division of sheep (the believers) from goats (the unbelievers) would be impossible.
A second parable which shows that salvation and destruction happen on the same day is found in Matthew 13:47-49, which says:
13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind.
13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world; the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just.
13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire...
Note that at the end of the world, the good and the bad fish are still together in the net, and are not separated until the angels come. And it has already been shown in this study that the angels come when the LORD comes in the brightness of His coming which will set the elements on fire. The wicked are therefore severed from the just at the very end, at the harvest which is also the end of the world.
I could go on, but I’ll finish with a familiar Bible pattern from Luke 17:34, which says:
17:34 I tell you, in that night, there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Now, there is also a night mentioned in 1Thessalonians 5:2:
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the LORD so comes as a thief in the night.
1Thes.5:2 thus equates the night with the day of the LORD, which is the end of the world. Now, in Lk.17:28-30 which precede Lk.17:34 above by a few verses, the day of the LORD is further defined as the coming [parousia] of the LORD which shall be as in the days of Lot:
17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded.
17:29 But in the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed.
So I think we can safely conclude that the day of the LORD is the same as the night in which the LORD will come as a thief.
Therefore, let’s look at this night of Lk.17:34 again:
17:34 I tell you, in that night, there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Now, traditionally it has been taught that the one who is taken is the believer who is caught up to be with the LORD and goes to the marriage supper in heaven with the LORD for a 3½-year or 7-year period, while the one who is left behind is the unbeliever who is left behind on earth to go through a 3½-year or 7-year tribulation period.
However, from what we’ve learned in this study, the real meaning of this parable is the complete opposite: the one who is taken is the unbeliever who is taken by the angels of the LORD to be cast into the fiery furnace; and the one who is left is the believer who is the only one remaining and left standing alive on earth and is shining forth like the sun in the kingdom of the Father. That is the exact opposite of what we have traditionally been taught. And that’s precisely why 1Thes.4:17 said what it did:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; so shall we ever be with the Lord.
And lastly, notice also from Lk.17:34 above, that when the one is taken and the other is left, which occurs at the endtime, the two are still together in a bed, and are thus not separated from each other by any 3½-year or 7-year period.
It seems to me that the scriptures therefore conclusively teach, both through Old Testament and New Testament patterns, that salvation and destruction always happen on the same day, and salvation is never preceded by any period at all, least of all a 3½-year or 7-year period.
love, Eden
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