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Topic: the 10 commandments are not that hard to do
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
eden O sed mo [QUOTE] Instead, the soul agrees to let the spirit of man rule the soul and body again, as it was in the garden of Eden, before Adam and Eve decided, like Lucifer/Satan before them, that they no longer needed the input from the spirit and they began to ignore the spirit and began to operate their body from the soul level.
We cannot even discuss this past this point! The spirit of man is bankrupt. It is corrupt! The spirit of man cannot rule. If the spirit of man does so, (This is some more Watchman Nee stuff), it is out of the 'intermingling' of the soul and spirit wherein the soul is not in its proper place, but disproportionately contrived. In other words, it is not subject to the spirit, but dominates it.
But, Christ died for our sins, while we were yet sinners! This means that we can receive HIS Spirit into ours. This means that we can give rule over to HIS Spirit, and "LIVE."
You however are still stumped by 'doing'. Our 'doing' causes nothing - not a thing. It follows after.1
And reading over there in question and answers, I have perhaps discovered that Adam did not necessarily have the Spirit of God, but was natural. You know: like you sed, man became a living mudbag with a mind.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
My friend in the Lord. Yes, I noticed that I had made an error in my post as you had brought to my attention. Jacobs dishonesty/deceit(in lying about who he was) was towards his father when it came to receiving the blessing.....not towards his brother when he received the birthright.
Thank you for clarifying that.
I had thought about another scenario recently....and I know that this has actually happened in other peoples lives (not mine though).
Would you give out the location of someone if you knew that their enemy was out to harm them if they found them? Personally, I feel it would be more important to protect someone from harm then being concerned about telling a lie. I'd rather be repenting of telling a lie then be repenting of allowing harm or death to come upon someone. Interesting discussion Eden.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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So let me ask you this, Michael H. When Christians are saved, they basically commit to "cease from their own works", which means they cease operating their body from their soul level.
Instead, the soul agrees to let the spirit of man rule the soul and body again, as it was in the garden of Eden, before Adam and Eve decided, like Lucifer/Satan before them, that they no longer needed the input from the spirit and they began to ignore the spirit and began to operate their body from the soul level.
A saved Christian is someone who sees the error of operating the body from the soul level and again commits to running the body from the spirit level.
But this does not mean that the soul has nothing more to do. To the contrary, the soul may now be busier than ever executing what the soul has been told by his spirit to do next.
So after Paul was saved, Paul began to listen to his spirit of man again, but at the same time Paul could say AFTER he was saved, "study to show yourself approved of God" and "renew your mind".
Clearly Paul was not saying to the spirit or to the Christ within to "study to show yourself approved of God" and "renew your mind".
The will and the mind and the emotions are located at the soul level, and it is the soul level which needs to be renewed and retrained to do what is right and how to act.
That is, the soul needs to learn who is boss and not to take up the reins of operating the body again but the soul must now allow the spirit of man to take control again of the soul and body, and then life begins to work properly again, in the order intended by God, as it was in the garden of Eden BEFORE Adam and Eve decided they, the soul, wanted to operate their own body, just like Lucifer/Satan was doing, and they henceforth ignored their spirit.
Their spirit was still there, it was just unemployed and idle, but once the soul repents and agrees to no longer operate the body but to allow the spirit of man to rule the soul and body again, then the spirit of man was quickened bt God and made alive and operable again thru the written Word of God from without and thru the Holy Spirit from within.
So it is not that the soul no longer DOES anything; indeed, the soul now may be busier than ever, but at last the soul is in the hands of God thru the Spirit of God which in turn tells the spirit of man what to do, which in turn tells the soul what to do, which in turn tells the body what to do.
My soul, meaning my will, mind, and emotions, are all still there. What was crucified was my "old man" (meaning, what the soul had done when it was operating the body from the soul level without input from the spirit), and now my soul is BUSIER and MORE EFFICIENT THAN EVER.
But my soul has "ceased from its own works" and now is "doing what the spirit says to the churches":
Psalm 106:39
Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.
Hebrews 4:10
For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
So my soul is still DOING, but it is no longer doing what the soul itself has thought to do; now the soul does what the spirit of man tels it to do, which in turn heard what to do from the Holy Spirit:
Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
For this reason also are we CO-LABORERS with God, for if God did everything now and I do nothing, then I am NOT a co-laborer with God:
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are laborers together with God: you are God's husbandry, you are God's building.
When we no longer operate our body from the soul level without input from the spirit, then we become laborers together with God, and we beome God's building, since what we DO is what we have haerd from God to do, just like Jesus did:
John 8:28
Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as my Father has taught Me, I speak these things.
And that's what happens with us too, except for when the soul temporarily takes up the rule of the body again during the day; that we then confess as sin:
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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So you miss the point eden, in focusing on these things. We are not to focus on the events, but rather the event maker that we may 'discover' His will in every situation, as much as possible, and not to be under condemnation during the rest. Yet you, ( ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) personally, no less) are still seeking what to 'do'! And as long as one is seeking what to do, he is missing what is, that he or she may walk in what is done!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Are you feeling guilt eden? Have you taken money and not returned it?
Am I saying that we will not find ourselves in these situations? Are we always supposed to know what to do? Yes! We are supposed to trust, whatever our actions. But our actions will follow His wisdom, if we are who He is! That is of course how we are supposed to be, if we are dead.
But let me throw you a curve. I usually will correct the mistake without deliberating. However, I recently 'let it go' and I didn't correct the mistake. Just because one thinks that he is supposed to correct it isn't just necessarily so. It is observant of good intentions, but we do not depend upon 'good intentions'. We depend upon Christ.
I have this perception that I once got someone into trouble because I corrected the mistake. I don't remember the circumstances, but it was a situation where I should have just 'let it go'. And once, or more, someone, I do believe, made a mistake on purpose. What does one do if someone thinks they are doing the right thing to favor you, but they are wrongfully doing it at the expense of who they are working for? So, the moral of the story is that one does not go by a 'rule' but by the Faith of Jesus Christ! For the rule is legalism, and faith is life, and the Spirit in us knows what to do in every situation. For all of the rest, it will be ok, for, "All things work together for good to those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose."
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
are helping me now in every living moment of my life, now that I am a saved Chrisian."
I don't let Jesus help me. I let Him do it! I only follow after.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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But of course Michael Harrison is 100% honest, under all circumstances. Why? Because Michael Harrison does not DO anything, only Christ acts in him and I know that Christ is 100% honest.
love, Eden
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Eden
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As my mother used to say, "a cat in a corner makes funny jumps". Generally speaking, is it true that the more money we have the less likely we are to be dishonest?
love, Eden
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Eden
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hello, oneinchrist, thanks for those added examples of little things that we do that are not entirely kosher, but at least generally we make a genuine effort to be honest and forthright.
Regarding this part, you wrote quote:
Sometimes I wonder why God allowed Jacob to receive the birthright through his apparent dishonesty?
Jacob was NOT dishonest; Jacob acquired the legal right to the birthright when Esau sold it to Jacob for pottage. After that it was legally Jacob's.
It was Esau who then remained dishonest and deceptive by NOT telling his father Isaac that Esau had sold the birthright to Jacob. This put Jacob and his mother Rebekah in the untenable situation of having to use animal skins to simulate Esau's hairy skin, so that Jacob could access his legal birthright.
Remember also that Jacob was obedient to his mother. It was his mother Rebekah who told Jacob that he needed to use this method to gain possession of that which was legally Jacob's now. Jacob even balked at his mother's proposal, but she insisted.
In this case, Esau was entirely at fault by continuing to act before his father as if Esau was still the legal birthright owner, and that misrepresentation forced Rebekah and Jacob to have to use an extraordinary method to gain possession of what was legally Jacob's.
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Good morning Eden,
You have brought up an interesting scenario. I have to admit that I believe that I have done both the wrong thing and the right thing in situations like that. There is a side of me that would like to see it as a blessing from God, but then there is the other side that feels it would be right to bring it to the cashiers attention. Personally I do struggle with the honesty at all cost belief. Why? let me give you a couple examples.....
My mother asked me if I thought she was fat. Now evidently she felt that way or someeone else told her that. I know that it would make her feel bad for me to also chime in and tell her that she is fat....so I tell her no. Was I honest? no , but I just didn't want to hurt her feelings. I suppose maybe I could have said something like "yes mom you are fat, but I love you the way you are.....but it wasnt my thought at the time.
Another example was when I was stopped by a police officer. He asked me if I realized that my stickers were expired. Since I really did not feel like talking myself into getting a ticket, I said that I was not aware of it. Then he went on to tell me that he will just give me a warning and that I will have 10 days to get new stickers. I was not honest, but in that situation I had felt honesty might give me and my family a 150.00 fine that I really couldnt afford.
Actually let me give you guys one more story of mine. It was a situation like Eden described in his post. I was going to pick up my lunch in a drive-thru. After all was said and done I just had realized after my change was given back that I had only paid about 15cents for my meal. I had a choice......I could turn around go back and be honest, or keep going and consider it a blessing from God that the lady made a mistake in my favor. At that time I chose to consider it a blessing and in a way I tried to rationalize it as OK because it would counter balance with the number of times that I had been ripped off in the past. I felt thanking God was the answer. Later on I confessed it as sin as I realized that I should have been honest.
Sometimes I wonder why God allowed Jacob to receive the birthright through his apparent dishonesty???
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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Michael Harrison said quote:
All we can do is try is out! Trying can only fail. How many times does this need to be said. We have not the capability, no matter how hard we try, or how earnestly we would like to. This is the 'whole' point of the gospel. We must trust in His life, and the outworking of it. He IS DOING it for us if we would abide in it.
Okay, let me make this more practical. Michael Harrison is at the market checkout, receives his change, and when he gets to his car, he discovers that the cashier gave him one dollar too much back.
Now Michael Harrison is going to sit there in his car, I don't know how long, until Jesus thru the Holy Spirit DOES THE NEXT THING, which is either to CAUSE Michael Harrison to go back in and fix the mistake (eventhough there are now 10 people already waiting in the checkout line), or the Holy Spirit CAUSES Michael Harrison to leave the parkinglot and he goes home.
Now, Michael H., does the Holy Spirit cause you to DO something instantly, or does it take 10 minutes and like a good adopted son of God you sit there patiently, or how does it work?
I know you keep saying that the true Christian does not DO anything and only JESUS in the Christian can DO, but as a practical matter, YOU are the one who takes the money out of your pocket, aren't you (I guess AFTER Jesus has TOLD you how much you need to pay), but...do you see what I mean?
Instead, for me, I have said to God the Father and to God the Son and to God the Holy Spirit: "Look, I know all y'all are MUCH SMARTER than me, please give me your input in whatever situation I am in from moment to moment, and sometimes I can directly sense your input and I do it, and sometimes I just do whatever needs to be done, ASSUMING that YOU, God, are helping me now in every living moment of my life, now that I am a saved Chrisian."
But it is still ME handing over the money, it is still ME starting the car, it is still ME turning the car onto the street...only, now I also have the Holy Spirit to COUNSEL me how to DO all the same things I used to do before, except now with the counsel of the Holy Spirit I DO THEM A WHOLE LOT BETTER. OMG ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
So to repeat what you said, Michael Harrison: quote:
All we can do is try is out! Trying can only fail. How many times does this need to be said. We have not the capability, no matter how hard we try, or how earnestly we would like to. This is the 'whole' point of the gospel. We must trust in His life, and the outworking of it. He IS DOING it for us if we would abide in it.
It is you and HE now doing it TOGETHER; basically, YOU do what YOU think HE said to you to do, isn't that how it works?
Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hey Mike and Eden,
Whats up guys? You guys had me laughing on a couple of your posts on the "soul" topic. Well anyways about this 10 commandments topic. I believe that you are both right . Michael, I do agree that we need Jesus help, but I am not sure about how you perceive the mechanics in that process. I believe that when we are confronted with temptation to sin (whether its the 10 commandments or not) that the help that we(believers) receive from Jesus, via the Holy spirit, is a "tapping" into the conscience as a warning sign. Then as Eden implied (I think) we are left to choose whether or not to obey and take the necessary precautions.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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We cannot 'do' them. We can only rest in His doing them, which we are well advised to discover.
quote:
First of all, you are presenting an extraordinary event rather than day-to-day event for most people. But in any case, all we can do is try.
All we can do is try is out! Trying can only fail. How many times does this need to be said. We have not the capability, no matter how hard we try, or how earnestly we would like to. This is the 'whole' point of the gospel. We must trust in His life, and the outworking of it. He IS DOING it for us if we would abide in it.
But concerning whether it is a day-to-day event, it is. It really is. It doesn't have to be spactacular to qualify.
I did think that you stated that you read Watchman Nee. If you had you would have discovered that this is exactly what he was saying, that it is not up to us to do them, but to rest in HIS doing of them, where it is safe. For that we must:
- Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
One must believe that HE IS. That means that He is not relegated to some undifinable distance wherein HE is out of touch with His created, loved ones. And that since HE is not out of touch, then HE is a rewarder, in real time, of those who seek to be in touch with HIM. Now!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
The way to keep the Ten Commandments is to let Jesus be LORD (all the way).
That's fine, as long as you also DO them.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
You say that they are not hard to do. Let’s say that the soviets invade the country. What if they hold a knife to one of your parents throats, and command you to renounce Christ! Let’s say that your father, or mother also commands you to. Honor thy father and mother?
Let’s say that you did not denounce Christ and one of them is hurt beyond hope. Did you steal from them ‘to obey‘ God? If you do denounce Christ, do you lie? Is it meaningless if you do? Did you ’love’ God by doing either? Either way you seem to transgress someone, and either way you break the Ten. Does that mean that they cannot be kept?
First of all, you are presenting an extraordinary event rather than day-to-day event for most people. But in any case, all we can do is try. Under "normal" daily circumstances we can be quite successful at it, once we are saved and we are so thankful to God for saving us and we find out from the Bible how God would like sons and daughters to behave within the family camp of God.
But God knows that we are ADOPTED saved humans STILL HAVE A LOT OF ISSUES, and that they need to RENEW THEIR MINDS, so all God asks of us that we DO OUR BEST.
So to repeat what you said, Michael H. quote:
Michael Harrison wrote...Either way you seem to transgress someone, and either way you break the Ten. Does that mean that they cannot be kept?
Under many circumstances, the 10 commandments CAN be kept, and God wants us to TRY to keep them. But our salvation is NOT DEPENDENT on how well we finally did at it; that HONOR belongs to Jesus who died for us.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
~honor your father and mother~
I seee only four! You say that they are not hard to do. Let’s say that the soviets invade the country. What if they hold a knife to one of your parents throats, and command you to renounce Christ! Let’s say that your father, or mother also commands you to. Honor thy father and mother?
Let’s say that you did not denounce Christ and one of them is hurt beyond hope. Did you steal from them ‘to obey‘ God? If you do denounce Christ, do you lie? Is it meaningless if you do? Did you ’love’ God by doing either? Either way you seem to transgress someone, and either way you break the Ten. Does that mean that they cannot be kept?
What about these? Are these indications of ‘honoring father and mother’?
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mat 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
Mat 4:22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.
Shall we ‘assume’ that the father agreed? Probably he was in a bad way over this.
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
With our mouth we can sound like we are honoring the Ten Commandments. But the heart can be far from them. But if our heart honors them, accusers will shamelessly point out where we are not. But do they really know? The way to keep the Ten Commandments is to let Jesus be LORD (all the way).
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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While our salvation is NOT dependent on trying to do the 10 commandments, the 10 commandments are not that hard to do.
love God
honor your father and mother
do not steal
do not lie
It is not that hard to try to NOT do these things; but if we fail now and then in one of them...maybe I told a white lie to my boss to keep my job, or the cashier gave me back 25 cents too much and it was too much trouble to correct it all with more customers waiting...my salvation does not depend on it.
But I do think God wants us to try to do the 10 commandments, for they are not burdensome.
love, Eden
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