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Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Earlier, I posted a question, which was raised from a post addressing the Parable of the Sower, how does sin affect the Christian? The same discussion of the parable raised a second important question—how does the Holy Spirit work in the Christian?
To answer this we must first consider who the Holy Spirit is. The Bible teaches that the God who made all things is one God (I Corinthians 8:6), composed of three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). This is a difficult concept for mortal, finite man to grasp—but it is the teaching of Scripture. Each person of the Godhead, has his own distinct will. Jesus in the garden, prayed to the Father, “not My will, but Yours be done” (Luke 22:42). He promised His disciples that when the Holy Spirit came upon them, “He, will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak” (John 16:13). So, the Holy Spirit is not simply a different manifestation of the Father. Rather, He is a distinct person of the Godhead. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, yet they are not three gods—they are all one God.
The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit has played an active role in the revelation of Scripture throughout the history of God’s dealings with mankind. Peter wrote:
quote:
…No prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation [most footnotes say or origin for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (II Peter 1:20,21)
Because of this fact, Paul will tell Timothy, “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God” (II Timothy 3:16). In the original Greek the phrase “given by inspiration of God” is one word—theopneustos meaning literally “God-breathed.” That means that while the books of Matthew, John, or First Peter may have been written by these apostles who bear their name, these men were directed to write the things which they wrote by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said the same of the psalmist, King David, referring to something he had written, declaring “David in the Spirit” said, such and such (Matthew 22:43).
The Bible reveals a very special role that the Holy Spirit would have in connection with the gospel of Jesus Christ. This role was foreshadowed prophetically even before Jesus came to earth. Joel proclaimed:
quote:
And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh, your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. (Joel 2:28-29).
On the day of Pentecost after Jesus’ ascension when the Holy Spirit came upon the twelve apostles and they spoke in tongues, Peter referred to Joel’s words declaring that what was happening on that day was, “what was spoken by the prophet Joel” (Acts 2:16) going on to quote from the prophet. This was a marvelous thing. The Old Testament had told of many times in which there had been a prophet or a small group of prophets, but never before had there been such a widespread outpouring of the Spirit. The only other time had been when the Spirit “rested upon” the seventy elders in the wilderness through whom God would instruct the Israelites. They prophesied as a demonstration that God was working through them (Numbers 11:25). The outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost would demonstrate much the same thing, for the twelve. This was a new age. It was a new time and a new revelation. As Jesus had promised the apostles, it was not simply they who spoke, “but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you” (Matthew 10:20).
This outpouring on the twelve was a unique thing. It did not happen to all believers. Jesus had promised them, “you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth” (Acts 1:8). This miraculous power was not in all believers, yet “through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given” (Acts 8:18). There is no evidence in Scripture that the miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit went beyond those who received the “laying on of the apostles’ hands.”
This brings us to the issue of the Holy Spirit’s work in believers in general. If we are not careful we may confuse promises that were made to the apostles specifically with promises made to Christians generally. For example, on the night before His death Jesus’ promised the twelve, “ I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him, but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you” (John 14:16-17). What a wonderful promise! But was it made to believers generally or the apostles specifically? There may be some ways that the affect of the Holy Spirit’s work would act in this way, but not everything that was true of the Spirit’s work in the twelve was true of all believers. For example, we should note a number of other things Jesus told them at this same time:
1. He told them that the Holy Spirit “will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you” (John 14:16). Who could have “remembrance” of what Jesus said? —Only those who had been with Him in the flesh. All believers have not enjoyed this privilege. The apostles were taught, “do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit” (Mark 13:11). Yet, we notice that even Christians in the first century, such as Timothy an evangelist (II Timothy 4:5), who had received some miraculous spiritual gift through the laying on of hands (II Timothy 1:6) does not have the same promise of direct teaching by the Holy Spirit. Rather, he is told to “give attention to reading, exhortation, to doctrine” (I Timothy 4:13) and to “study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (II Timothy 2:15, KJV).
2. He told them in at the same time, “The Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me” (John 15:26). He did so, as Paul described with words “which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual” (I Corinthians 2:13). This was not a strong feeling in the heart, but words which were understandable and revealed directly to the apostles and prophets of New Testament times. This testimony about Jesus does not come directly to all believers, as it did to the apostles.
3. Finally, He told them, “when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13). How much truth is “all truth”? Is there more gospel truth that has yet to be revealed to Christians? Near the end of the first century, Peter wrote, “His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness” (II Peter 1:3). Paul, in speaking of miraculous gifts such as tongues and prophecy, describes them as things which are “in part” contrasting it with the time in which revelation is finalized declaring, “when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part will be done away” (I Corinthians 13:10). The Law of Christ contained in the New Testament revealed by the Holy Spirit is, “the perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) —it is “that which is perfect.”
Is there any sense then in which the Holy Spirit dwells in and works in believers in general? Yes. Paul speaks of “the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God” (Ephesians 6:17). It is impossible to separate the influence of someone from the word which they speak. If I tell my children to do something, my words are the vehicle through which I work in them to accomplish that thing. If I write down my instructions, and they heed those instructions, the same is true. The degree to which they internalize my instructions is the degree to which they allow my spirit to dwell in them. The same is true of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, “the words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63). The Hebrew writer said, “the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword” (Hebrews 4:12). It is this word, when heard that produces faith (Romans 10:17). It is by this word, revealed by the Holy Spirit, through the message of the gospel by which God’s Spirit has been poured out on “all flesh” (Joel 2:28). Not all flesh receives the miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit, but in offering the message of salvation to “all flesh” it is in this way that Jesus promised that the Spirit would “convict the world of sin” (John 16:8).
God has made us spiritual beings. We are children of the “Father of spirits” (Hebrews 12:9). God knows our hearts and searches our spirits. Proverbs tells us, “the spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all the inner depths of his heart” (Proverbs 20:27). When we allow the revelation of the Holy Spirit to dwell in us it is the Spirit dwelling in us. Paul told the Ephesians that “Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith” (Ephesians 3:17). This is not a possession, but a choice. We are led by the spirit when we “set our minds on” the things of the Spirit (Romans 8:5). The Christian, has the promise that God will hear their prayers always (I John 5:15). Even, when it is difficult knowing how to express the thought of the heart, as spiritual beings in contact with God’s spirit, “the Spirit Himself makes intercession intercedes for us with groaning which cannot be uttered” (Romans 8:26). What a wonderful blessing. What a glorious God! What a wonderful thought that God has revealed Himself to man and we can allow that Spirit to live in us by accepting the Spirit’s revelation in the word of God—the Bible. When the Christian does that it is allowing the Spirit to work in our hearts.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, Hittite1963. I'm sure the Holy Spirit does all the things that you say the Holy Spirit does in your Topic post.
I have found the Holy Spirit to be hyper-practical. I lost my glasses somewhere this evening and I pulled on a part of the cloth covering the couch and out popped my glasses right away. The Holy Spirit is always doing stuff like that for me, tangible helps.
And the way it is done is that Jesus is "seated at the right hand of the Father" and the Holy Spirit is like WiFi wireless. Jesus conveys a message for me to the WiFi Holy Spirit and then the Holy Spirit tries to prompt me to do it.
It is not so much a vocal message to me as it is to try to get me to do something. Like the other day I had left something on the balcony, and I ended up returning to the balcony for an unrelated matter and said, wow, I did not know this what out here, and so on.
That kind of stuff happens all the time to me now. It's terrific, what a blessing. So that's how I think the Holy Spirit works in a Christian, "get me to do something that I might not otherwise have done".
love, eden
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Kyle,
I remember back even not long before you came among us that I had suggested(because of the rise of tension in disputes over certain issues of the faith)that the most credible way to come to reliable conclusions is to compare scripture with scripture. That certainly affirms where we are placing our trust. In your posts I see that your style incorporates just that very concept. I believe that this manner of study can provide a means to a stronger unity in the faith because we can look at two seemingly contradictory verses and show harmony in their existence by gathering other scriptures dealing with the same subject matter.
I would like to adress two of your statements in this post on the Holy Spirits work.
1. There is no evidence in scripture that the miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit went beyond those who received the laying on of the apostles hands.
What about Luke 9 vs. 49-50?....
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one CASTING OUT DEVILS IN THY NAME; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not, for he that is not against us is for us.
And what about Luke 10 vs. 17?....
And the SEVENTY returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
2.This testimony about Jesus does not come directly to all believers, as it did to the apostles.
I noticed that you stated "all" believers. I am assuming that you then believe that some believers could receive direct word from the Holy Spirit as authorized by Jesus. This would not reveal favoritism (as some may think) but a divine action taken for a higher purpose even beyond all of our understanding.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Daniel,
Thanks for your kind comments about my post. Regarding your two questions:
1. You are correct that during Christ's earthly ministry there were others to whom Christ granted ability to heal the sick, cast out demons, etc. In such cases, Christ directly gave them such ability (cf. Luke 10:17; 9:1). In the case of those who did miracles, but were not following with the disciples, we can assume that they also received such power directly from Jesus, or at a time when He was present on earth (Mark 9:40; Luke 9:50).
The outpouring on Pentecost was different. On Pentecost the apostles received something that allowed them to give miraculous spiritual gifts to others (see Acts 8:18). Since Jesus is not on earth to directly give such gifts, and the apostles are no longer living--the evidence from Scripture is that miraculous spiritual gifts passed away with the death of the apostles and those who had received the laying on of the hands of the apostles.
2. Does the "testimony" about Jesus referred to in John 15:26 come directly to some believers but not others? Yes, and no. During the time in which the apostles lived the Holy Spirit directly "testified" to them information about Jesus. In addition, of those who received the laying on of the apostles' hands, some received gifts of "prophecy" or "knowledge" (I Corinthians 12:8-11). Such gifts would allow them to know things about Jesus from the Spirit's testimony rather than their own study or experience. Since we cannot receive the laying on of the apostles' hands today--such testimony of the Spirit regarding Jesus no longer happens. We can however, benefit from the "testimony" of the Spirit in the pages of Scripture. We do not need additional direct testimony--what He has already given is a sufficient "That the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (II Timothy 3:17).
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
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INTERNATIONAL STANDARD BIBLE ENCYCLOPEDIA
Toward the end of his ministry and in his later group of epistles, Paul devoted much thought to the subject of the church, and one of his favorite figures was of the church as the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit is represented as animating this body, as communicating to it life, and directing all its affairs. As in the case of the individual believer, so also in the body of believers the Spirit is the sovereign energy which rules completely. By one Spirit all are baptized into one body and made to drink of one Spirit (1 Cor 12:13). All the gifts of the church, charismatic and otherwise, are from the Spirit (1 Cor 12:4, 8-11). All spiritual gifts in the church are for edification (1 Cor 14:12). Prayer is to be in the Spirit (1 Cor 14:15). The church is to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Eph 4:3). Love (Col 1:8); fellowship (Phil 2:1); worship (Phil 3:3) are in the Spirit. The church is the habitation of the Spirit (Eph 2:22). The church is an epistle of Christ written by the Spirit (2 Cor 3:3). Thus the whole life of the church falls under the operation of the Holy Spirit.
In Paul’s writings we have the crowning factor in the Biblical doctrine of the Holy Spirit. He gathers up most of the preceding elements, and adds to them his own distinctive teaching or emphasis. Some of the earlier Old Testament elements are lacking, but all those which came earlier in the New Testament are found in Paul. The three points which Paul especially brought into full expression were first, the law of edification in the use of spiritual gifts, second, the Holy Spirit in the moral life of the believer, and third, the Holy Spirit in the church. Thus Paul enables us to make an important distinction as to the work of the Spirit in founding the kingdom of God, namely, the distinction between means and ends. Charismatic gifts of the Spirit were, after all, means to ethical ends. God’s kingdom is moral in its purpose, “righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” Christianity is, according to Paul, inherently and essentially supernatural. But its permanent and abiding significance is to be found, not in extraordinary phenomena in the form of “mighty works,” “wonders,” “tongues” and other miracles in the ordinary sense, but in the creation of a new moral order in time and eternity. The supernatural is to become normal and “natural” in human history, therefore, in the building up of this ethical kingdom on the basis of a redemption that is in and through Jesus Christ, and wrought out in all its details by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Eden,
Thank you for commenting on my rather lengthy post.
Let me challenge you to test those things which you interpret as the work of the Holy Spirit by the patterns which are revealed in Scripture. Specifically, when we see the direct revelation of the Holy Spirit in Scripture it is through words "which the Holy Spirit speaks" (I Corinthians 2:13). For example, when Philip saw the eunuch, Scripture says, "The Spirit said to Philip, 'Go near and overtake the chariot'" (Acts 8:29). This was not a vague feeling, but clear words which could be written down. We never see in Scripture motivation by the Spirit described as something that could be misinterpreted. It was clear communication of a message revealed to the hearer.
It is one thing to thank God, that in His providence He has allowed you to remember where something is, or find something you had lost but we must be careful not to minimize the Biblical work of the Holy Spirit by equating it with strong feelings we may have in our heart. Only when we follow the instruction of the Spirit revealed in Scripture can we know that it is the Spirit leading us, through the word.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
The outpouring on Pentecost was different. On Pentecost the apostles received something that allowed them to give miraculous spiritual gifts to others (see Acts 8:18). Since Jesus is not on earth to directly give such gifts, and the apostles are no longer living--the evidence from Scripture is that miraculous spiritual gifts passed away with the death of the apostles and those who had received the laying on of the hands of the apostles.
I believe that the Spirit disagrees with you.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Michael,
If there is evidence in Scripture that the special power given to the apostles, by which they could lay hands on someone and they would receive a miraculous spiritual gift, was available to anyone else or was passed on to others, please show me where it can be found. Thanks.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Show me when it ceased. This is a useless argument. It goes on always. I believe because it is given of me to believe. Yet one can choose to believe. Nevertheless, those who think that the gifts ceased, cannot pin it down to when. They are bolstered by the verse that says that "whether there be tongues, etc. these shall cease." They cannot conceive of the fact that it could be at the second advent.
Moreover, we have to literally throw out scripture when we take the position that they ceased. The same list that enumerates pastors, together with the rest, evangelist, gifts of healings, etc. expresses this best. If what you say is true, then we should truncate this list. Truth in reading will change a person. But reading to confirm what one already believes will mislead a person.
Nevertheless, I have this confidence, the day will declare it. It will be discovered, either now, or later. Moreover, the bible is a book of miracles from the very beginning. Curious that they should cease 90 years after Christ.
Moreover, Jesus is the special power. They did not have something imparted to them, as it were, special, except to say that Jesus is special. Jesus is the power, and you will know that you have believed by the same.
Add to this that "Greater than these will ye do if I go to my Father."
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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Paul perscribes wine. Why didnt he give a prayer cloth?
1Tim.5
[23] Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
And it was real mean for him to leave his friend sic.
Phil.2
[26] For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
[27] For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
2Tim.4
[20] Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Great logic. I feel sorry for you that you think that you can dictate God's will. Every post that I have sent is about following - not leading. God is not subject to you. You are subject to God. OOps! Perhaps you are, or perhaps not.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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Some are put in that place some are not.
Pss.75
[6] For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.
[7] But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
That Christ may dwell
where?
That ye being rooted and grounded in
what?
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Or not!
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Those who claim to represent Him, will they have? Fear of the Lord would send the wise and prudent to find out. The rest will just have to take their punishment.
Jesus lives in belief. Therefore, He lives in the believer. If He doesn't live in the believer, then the much talked about relationship does not exist. Relationship takes two. But if there is one, who believes in another, whom they will not see until some day down the road, that is an incomplete pair.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi again Kyle,
I've been in several types of churches....lutheran,catholic, baptist, pentecostal, presbyterian, and non-denom. If I may say, it appears to me that you hold to more of the baptist view concerning the gifts of the holy spirit that Paul speaks of. Correct me if I am wrong.
The particular statement that I would like to adress that you made in your above post is....
"Since we cannot receive the laying on of the apostles hands today such testimony of the spirit regarding Jesus no longer happens"
I'm not so sure whether or not I can agree with this. One night before I went to bed I went to Jesus in prayer. I was struggling over an issue which is a common debate amongst christians. The "Jesus is God" issue to be specific. My prayer to the Lord Jesus was....Lord Jesus if there is anything that You believe that I need to know concerning this issue, I believe that you will let me know, but if you are satisfied with what I know I trust that you will be silent to me concerning this....end of prayer....
The following morning just before I awoke 5 words came to me "JESUS DID NOT EXALT HIMSELF"
The first thought that came to my mind was the recollection of my prayer to Jesus, then followed by a feeling of peace that suddenly came over me like a wave.
Now the next day as I pondered the answer to my prayer I concluded a few things.
#1 It was important to God that I had this understanding
#2 The Holy Spirit must have given answer because the answer came speaking on behalf of Jesus about Jesus.
#3 The answer aligned with scriptural truth.....Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with His right....and...Phil 2:9 God also hath highly exalted Him
#4 This was the first time in my life that I had ever received direct words in response to any prayer that I have ever made, but this is also the first time that I have ever asked Jesus something about Himself.
What are your thoughts on this now that I have shared this testimony of answered prayer?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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oneinchrist,
Thanks for continuing to consider my post. I am not a member of any denomination. I strive to be simply a Christian. If I can find something in Scripture I will teach it--if I cannot (no matter how popular or widespread the concept may be) I must reject it. "Let God be true and every man a liar!" (Romans 3:4).
Whenever someone appeals to a personal experience as an evidence of some spiritual truth we are forced to ask how can another person ever truly evaluate that experience? For example, I once had a man who was intoxicated tell me that the angel Gabriel told him something while he was intoxicated! What standard can determine that he was deluding himself but the experience you cited was actually the Holy Spirit directly revealing something to you?
What we can know for certain is that God will never do anything in the life of a person which violates, contradicts, or stands in opposition to what He has already revealed in Scripture. "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever" (Isaiah 40:8; I Peter 1:24). Paul taught, "Even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).
With that said, I can't emphasize enough the power that God has placed in His word! In the example you cited, I don't know what the specific issue was that you wrestled with, but when we "hide" the word in our heart (as the Psalmist put it in Psalm 119:11) it works in us and comes to mind to influence us. This doesn't have to be direct to be powerful.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Michael,
I was sincere in my appeal to you to show me evidence from Scripture that the special power given to the apostles to lay hands upon others and give them miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit was ever seen in any other believers or was to be passed on to others after their death. In the absence of such evidence I must stand by my statement in the post.
You asked,"show me when it ceased" but then said, "this is a useless argument." I do not agree that it is a useless discussion, and I will be happy to show you what Scripture says about "when it [which I assume you mean miraculous spiritual gifts] ceased."
In the post I cited the powerful prophecy in Joel 2:28,29 which declared that God would "pour out" His Spirit on His servants. This definitely foretold that in the age of Christ there would be miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. However, a companion prophecy to this is found in Zechariah 13:1-6 which shows the termination of this time of prophecy. It begins by identifying when the period is in question. It reads...
quote:
In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness (Zechariah 13:1).
When would a fountain be opened to the "house of David" which would address sin? When the gospel of Jesus Christ flowed out of Jerusalem. During this time Zechariah foreshadows he declares...
quote:
"It shall be in that day," says the LORD of hosts, "that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they shall no longer be remembered. I will also cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to depart from the land." (Zechariah 13:2)
How does that mesh with the prophecy of Joel? Joel tells us that a miraculous outpouring of the Holy Spirit would occur--Zechariah tells us that there will be a time when it will end.
If this is correct, what do we find in the New Testament record? The following is clear...
* The Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost (Acts 2). This fulfilled Joel 2.
* The Apostles could "lay hands" on believers and give miraculous spiritual gifts (Acts 8:18).
* Not all believers possessed the same gifts (I Corinthians 12:4-11). Timothy did not enjoy the same benefit of not having to "premeditate" what he should say, as did the apostles (I Timothy 4:13; II Timothy 2:15). Not all believers were healed (cf. Philippians 2:26; II Timothy 4:20).
* Jesus taught that these gifts were to confirm the word (Mark 16:20).
* Paul addressed these gifts as things which were "in part" and referred to a time when those things which were "in part" would be done away (I Corinthians 13:10). [Let's go back to this in a minute.]
* While we do not have an exact revealed date when the last New Testament prophet died, we have the clear and unquestionable fact that the New Testament canon was closed. Why have no books been revealed since the Book of Revelation was penned? Unless a person is a Mormon or Muslim who believes that the Holy Spirit has revealed more books, at the very least we must accept that the miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit which operated to form the New Testament ceased.
Finally, regarding the statements of First Corinthians 13, we must recognize that they occur in the context of a larger discussion of gifts such as tongues, prophecy, revealed knowledge, etc. This runs from chapter 12 through chapter 14. In the midst of this he discusses the superiority of love in chapter 13. However, in this he says, “when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part will be done away” (I Corinthians 13:10). I am perfectly capable of conceiving of the possibility that this could be talking about the second coming. However, is that what it is talking about? It says when that which is perfect. If it is talking about Jesus would it not say "when He who is perfect comes"? The contrast is not between the present and the future, nor the material and the spiritual. The contrast is between partial revelation and complete (or perfect) revelation. In light of this evidence it seems clear that the time in which these things ceased was when the complete revelation of the New Testament came to an end.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Hey folks,
The question of the meaning of Paul's statement in First Corinthians 13:10 "when that which is perfect has come, that which in part will be done away" has come up in this post. He is a link to a short article I have written on the subject which is posted on my website.
http://kmpope.home.att.net/ReligionStudies/ThatWhichIsPerfect.html
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, Hittite1963. You said to Eden quote:
Let me challenge you to test those things which you interpret as the work of the Holy Spirit by the patterns which are revealed in Scripture.
Specifically, when we see the direct revelation of the Holy Spirit in Scripture it is through words "which the Holy Spirit speaks" (I Corinthians 2:13).
For example, when Philip saw the eunuch, Scripture says, "The Spirit said to Philip, 'Go near and overtake the chariot'" (Acts 8:29).
I certainly think that the Holy Spirit can speak directly to me, Hittite1963:
Matthew 10:27
What I tell you in darkness, that speak you in light: and what you hear in the ear, that preach you upon the housetops.
Mark 4:24
And he said to them, Take heed what you hear: with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you: and to you that hear shall more be given.
But let me challenge you to recognize that the Holy Spirit does more than speak to us, the Holy Spirit also drives a person to go someplace, like the balcony:
Mark 1:12
And immediately the Spirit drove him into the wilderness.
Matthew 4:1
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
When I needed to go somewhere, the Holy Spirit drove me to the balcony, so that I might see what I had accidentally left there, and I thanked the LORD and the Lord Jesus for "driving me to the balony".
The Holy Spirit does many things more than speak to us and drive us places. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, and lots of other things too.
love, eden
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi again Kyle,
I want to clarify that I did not ask you whether or not you were a baptist per se, but I asked if you were more in agreement with their teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It seems to me that you are. They speak of the cessation of the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit as you seem to. I will say that I disagree with some of what you say both by my personal experience and by how I perceive some scripture, but I will let you know that I also disagree with the Pentecostal teachings that the gift of the holy Ghost must be evidenced by speaking in tounges. I will also let you know that I am not deceived by the prominent well-known supposed healers who have a room full of people counting money in the back room to make sure that they can continue on with their present lifestyle. God will not entrust the Holy Spirit to them who have the wrong motives. I understand that we look around and we do not see miracles going on like we would have in the presence of the disciples in the Apostles days.....but that does not cause me to believe that the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit is not possible even in these days of apostacy. On a final note.....I wholeheartedly believe that if we ever do have an opportunity to witness a miracle that it will happen in the life of an obedient follower of Jesus who has a passion for the lost. God can surprise any one of us at any time.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Your dissertation shows me what you believe. (As someone on this board often says), "That is all." What you believe, and what is, are two different things. The reason I said that this is a useless argument is because this is not the first time I have been in this discussion. It is on this board however.
I am a living testimony of the grace of God, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. If my word is not good enough, it is backed up by scripture. But, as Jesus said to Lazurus about someone being sent from hell to tell the man's brother so that he would believe, "They have Moses, and the prophets. If they do not believe them, they will not believe though one comes back from the dead." I don't aim to convince you. But on that day we will have to let God sort em out. You will have the words that I have given for a testimony.
The blind think they see. It is hurtful to watch. (Take heed that the light that is in thee be not darkness.) But they let scripture convince them, without letting the Holy Spirit convince them. This is paramount. There is self election in one's thinking that they are qualified to search the scriptures and come to a conclusion based upon what they can ascertain by their own logic. What I have is not to my credit, nor by my logic. It was done unto me. So here is the wheat and the tare issue. One, perhaps well meaning on a human level, seeks to find, to come to a conclusion, but even that is not an higher righteousness that the Pharisees. So there is no righteousness in it, even for having searched it out. It is not to one's credit for having the good intentions to search it out. But the visitation of the Holy Spirit is of God. Amen. No man will annul it.
There is no point in bandying scriptures about in a reinvention of the Crusades. However, if I could address a flaw in your argument, you said something to the effect that the signs of the apostles ceased with the Apostles' however you didn't notice that the writings of the Apostles ceased with the cecessation of the Apostles. It sort of makes sense to me (but not to those who want to belive what they want to believe).
To discover Him, scripture says "Except ye become as a child." This is the first test of one's self. If one fails this test, it should be clear that they were not objective in their pursuit, if they could only receive it. It might otherwise be noted that if one searches the scriptures to learn, subject to the notion of 'doing' to find themselves in God's graces, they would not realize that they were catering to a concept of works, to please God. What rather, pleases God, is to receive His gift as a very young child, noting that a child 'trusts' the parent and does not try to 'earn' approval first. This simple trust is of absolute consequence. But those who do not enter in, do not because they want to be adult about it. They want to earn approval, and be rewarded.
Amen!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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...and perhaps the problem lies in this statement:
quote:
I strive to be simply a Christian.
Discover the love of our Lord. He will not hold it back if you will acknowledge Him.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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oneinchrist,
Thanks for your continued study of this issue. I appreciate the attitude which you demonstrate and your desire to test things by the pattern of God's word. I encourage you to continue to do this.
I don't know everything that the Baptists teach on these matters--I might agree with some aspects of their teaching but not others. I find it best to simply stand on Scripture and avoid any party or denominational platforms. All of these ultimately fail in one degree or another. Men fail, but the word of God remains ever true.
I appreciate your willingness to test the claims of modern day healers, and others who claim to operate under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit. John taught that we must "Test the spirits, whether they are from God" (I John 4:1). The only way that we can have a standard by which to test whether something is or is not from God is by looking to the Bible.
Please understand that it is not an issue of limiting God or His power. God can do anything, anyway, or at anytime that He cares to. The question is what He has revealed to us about He will do. I am afraid that many folks, without meaning to, minimize the awesome power of God by equating the direct revelation of Biblical times to strong inclinations of the heart that go on today. The result is confusion. "God is not the author of confusion but of peace"(I Corinthians 14:33).
Consider an example, I feel a strong inner drive within my heart to teach the things which I have. Yet, they differ with what others believe and teach. How can we ever know (if the Spirit operates as many claim that he does today) whether the Spirit is leading me to teach what I am, or He is leading others to teach what they do? If the Bible is our standard we can test all things by that standard. Thanks again.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Michael,
What could possibly be wrong with the desire to be simply a Chritian? That is what Peter was. He said, "If anyone suffers as a Christian let him not be ashamed" (I Peter 4:16). That is what Paul was. When Agrippa told him, "you almost persurade me to become a Christian" (Acts 26:28) he said, "I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains"(Acts 26:29). That is what the disciples in Antioch were. Luke tells us, "the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch" (Acts 11:26). All people everywhere should desire to be nothing more and nothing less that what the followers of Jesus were when the church was first etablished--simply Christians!
I have no desire to argue with you either. I don't feel that there is any fruit that will come from it. I do wish to address two aspects of your posts. I assume that you agree that the Bible is the inspired word of God. If I am correct I must disagree with the contention you put forward that attempting to "search out" what the Scriptures teach is not trusting in God. The Holy Spirit praises those in Berea saying:
quote:
These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so (Acts 17:11).
If the Holy Spirit praises those who searched Scriptures how can we say it is not trusting the Holy Spirit to search out the truth in Scripture?
Yes, it is true that the apostles' writings ended when the Apostles died, but not all New Testament writers were apostles. Mark and Luke were companions of Paul, but not apostles. James and Jude were the Lord's brothers, but not apostles. I have no doubt that they had received the miraculous gift of prophecy to write by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but the point is that if these gifts could be passed on why are there no more books? The obvious answer is that some measure of this gift (if not the miraculous gifts altogether) ended.
I am sorry if you do not see in my posts the humble attitude of a child. It is my desire to demonstrate that attitude. I recognize that it is only by the grace and mercy of God that any of us can live, and think, and have opportunity to hear His word and be obedient to it. Yet, that is not to say that we should be naive or ignorant of what God has said. Paul taught, "Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature" (I Corinthians 14:20). Nor does it mean that if we use the capacity to think (which God has given us) to understand God's word, that we are trusting in ourselves. Paul's custom was to go to the Jews and he "reasoned with them from the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2). He told the Ephesians, "when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ" (Ephesians 3:4).
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi again Kyle,
Thank you for the response. I know that this is a touchy subject for many. We, I believe, trust the testimony of scripture. We trust that what God says is going to happen is going to happen. We believe that the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit.......but can I find it written in the bible what God's specific direction is for me in my life? Yes, I can in one sense. Jesus taught us God's will for our lives. The gospels take us on a journey of seeing how the truth can change lives and change hearts. Today, if we are to believe in that same power, we demonstrate it by spreading the gospel message.....but the bible itself does'nt lay out all the answers for each one of us individually. It surely answers the most important questions.....but it is the Holy Spirit that brings uniqueness into the body of Christ. This is one thing that has been tough for me to learn and accept. Do I seek a position? or do I seek a purpose and accept where God leads me? I am not going to pretend to be an expert on the Holy Spirit, but I will tell you that I know one thing is for sure.......its intended purpose is to fashion us into a bolder witness of the Lord Jesus.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Eden,
Thank you once again for considering my comments. I appreciate the fact that you have appealed to Scripture to establish authority for your conclusions. That is the only way that we can be certain that we stand for truth.
Please understand I am not talking about what God can do but rather what he has indicated that He will do in the life of a Christian. It is appropriate to thank God for all things in a person's life. It is God who gives us "life and breath and everything else" (Acts 17:25). But not all things that He does are direct.
Please consider an example. I have bread to eat because God created wheat to grow. He designed the process of life and reproduction. He continues to allow laws of nature to function so the sun comes up, rain falls on the earth, carbon dioxide is produced to fuel the wheat as it grows. He chose when someone would be born who planted that seed and provided all of their needs for life to allow them to cultivate it. He chose when someone would be born who made it into flour and someone to bake it as bread, package it and sell it. God also granted me the ability to be able to work, to earn money so that I could buy it, eat it and have it for the needs of my fleshly body. All of this is thanks to God--but that is different than when Jesus miraculously acted directly to feed the 5000. Bread did not just appear in my pantry. This is the difference between direct and indirect action on the part of God.
I am afraid that too often we diminish the power of God by looking at something that might happen today and saying "that's just like what happened in the Bible." The record of Scripture indicates that when the Holy Spirit spoke to men and women in Biblical times it was a dramatic, often frightening event. Miracles involved direct action in ways that set aside laws of nature--axe heads floated, water stood up in a heap, ears were placed back one soneone's head, etc. Those things which folks now attribute to miracles or the movement of the Holy Spirit are not of that nature.
The point of my post is that now the way in which the Holy Spirit works in our hearts is through the word of God. It is the "sword of the Spirit" (Ephesians 6:17). by which God convicts of sin, instructs us, directs us, and teaches us His will. The Holy Spirit does not need to exercise some additional, direct, and personal influence on the heart--He has already done so through the revelation of God's word. We should be thankful for all things (even finding things that we have lost) but let's not equate that with the Spirit speaking to a person directly. Thanks again.
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
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The Handbook of Bible Application
He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: “The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.” (Luke 24:6-7, NIV)
The Bible reveals the living God to us . The two angels (appearing as “men in clothes that gleamed like lightning”) asked the women why they were looking in a tomb for someone who was alive. Often we run into people who are looking for God among the dead. They study the Bible as a mere historical document and go to church as if going to a memorial service. But Jesus is not among the dead—he lives! He reigns in the hearts of Christians, and he is the head of his church. Do you look for Jesus among the living? Do you expect him to be active in the world and in the church? Look for signs of his power—they are all around you.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Let me say up front that I don't assume the right to say that someone who does not understand as I do is not a Christian. But there is divide. Words do not cross it. Nevertheless we try anyway. To this end I will take you to task (sortof). YOu opened by saying: "What could possibly be wrong with the desire to be simply a Christian?" I believe my comment on your comment about "Striving to be a Christian," is what led to your fashioning your inquiry so. So we missed each other. To admit to striving to be a Christian immediately sends up a red flag about the condition of the speaker that opens up a lot to address. But to be more immediate, I did not say that there is something wrong with the desire to simply be a Christian. Although, I can find an answer to this in scripture. I shall not address it here.
Here is another red flag of missed understanding. The gifts (and I did address this in another post) are not passed on. It is a ridiculous notion. The gifts "are the fruit of the Spirit." And:
"If any have not the Spirit of God, they are none of His."
They are His working until such a time as we are no longer in this world. They are only limited by the absence of faith. Faith we will remember is of God. Therefore, belief which does not realize this is not belief. For if it were so, HE would fill it with faith, which would be followed by 'works', which are the manifestation of the 'Spirit', whether it is kindness spoken or an amazing miraculous event.
As far as searching out the truth in scripture, the communist could search out the preamble of the United States and only see communism implied. It is most strange to be in a world like that.
I am not being mean spirited. I would only hope to show you the error of your thinking, as you would to show me mine. But nevertheless you know where I stand. Your interpretation is not what I discern to be the truth. Yet, I cannot rail at you to deny that you are a Christian.
I have all confidence, with peace and joy that those who follow my words will not end up deceived, and cast out of the kingdom. Neither lack I any confidence of my own salvation. The challenge to the reality of the working of the Holy Spirit began while Jesus was here. It was vehemently denied then even though miracles were performed beneath their noses. In their case they could not deny it and sought only to destroy the miracle worker to take care of it. The same is still true today, and has been since those days. Those in denial have formed crusades, and governments to put the squeeze on the truth. Many have suffered for this reason. Many more will.
A safe gospel is not a real one.
Let me add this disclaimer: When I said that your interpretation is not what I consider to be the truth, I meant that in a limited way. I like some of what I see, but we diverge on the gifts, and baptism.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Michael,
I appreciate in your latest post what seems to me to be a less agressive tone. Perhaps, over time in other types of discussions we can come closer to a "meeting of the minds." You are correct that we disagree, but if we both commit ourselves to continue to look to the word of God as our guide, perhaps this can change.
Please allow me to offer one final point of clarification. When I express the sentiment that I strive to be simply a Christian I am not suggesting that I have doubts regarding whether I am a Christian or not. Rather, I seek to take the attitude which Paul had when he said,
quote:
...I know nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God (I Cor 4:4-5).
I believe that I have obeyed the gospel, and follow the faith which is taught in the New Testament. However, we are taught, "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified." (II Corinthians 13:5). Take care. Perhaps we'll talk on another topic.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Carol,
I would love to hear your comments rather than simply quotes from other sources. Even so, thanks for continuing to look over the posts on this topic.
WildB,
I appreciate the Scriptures that you pointed out regarding healing of the sick. The fact that even in the New Testament not all Christians were healed indicates that healings were for a specific purpose. Mark tells of the apostles, "... they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs" (Mark 16:20). The Hebrew writer spoke of salvation in Christ "...which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit" (Hebrews 2:3-4). Just as the putpouring of the Spirit on the seventy elders confirmed that God was speaking through them (Numbers 11:25), the outpouring of the Spirit upon Christians in the first century confirmed that the gospel was from God. Now that this confirmation has taken place and the New Testament has been revealed these signs are no longer necessary. Thanks.
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on
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hittite1963
quote:
Carol,
I would love to hear your comments rather than simply quotes from other sources. Even so, thanks for continuing to look over the posts on this topic.
I would love to hear you quote from sanctioned published professionals rather than attempt to teach the good people here a different gospel that denies the reality and the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
A number of passages clearly teach that the Holy Spirit is given to all believers rather than selectively to some (John 7:37; Acts 11:16-17; Rom. 5:5; 1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Cor. 5:5). A gift is not a reward and no merit is involved in receiving this gift.
Not to have the Holy Spirit is the same as not belonging to Christ, Paul declared (Rom. 8:9). Jude also described apostates as those who did not have the Spirit (Jude 19) and who were “natural” (KJV). This is the same word used in 1 Corinthians 2:14, another verse that describes an unsaved individual. To be natural is to be unsaved and not to have the Spirit. Therefore having the Spirit characterizes all born again people.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Carol,
Thank you for your response in your own words. I take very seriously your feeling that I preach a "different gospel." If in fact I am teaching a gospel which is different from what is taught in the New Testament, may the words of Paul apply to me:
quote:
...even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).
With that said, I fully acknowledge that the things which I teach regarding the Holy Spirit differ greatly from what is commonly taught in the religious world. However, does the fact that something is widespread and popular mean that it is the truth?
In Scripture we learn of a time in the history of Israel when the Israelites had actually lost the book of the Law of God. As a result, many Israelites had blended the idolatry and immorality of the pagan nations around them with what God had commanded under the Law of Moses. The truth of God's law had been forgotten, until a priest named Hilkiah found the lost book of the Law in the temple. He brought the book before king Josiah and it was read to him. When the king heard it he was forced to recognize that his fathers and his nation had turned away from what God had taught and commanded. In respose he started a massive effort to restore true worship and obedience to the Law of God (see II Kings 22-23; II Chronicles 34-35).
Is the same danger possible in our day? The Holy Spirit warned through the mouth of Paul, "the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables" (II Timothy 4:3-4). How can we avoid this danger? Just before this warning, the Holy Spiri told Timothy by the mouth of Paul that Scripture provides all that is needed, "that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (II Timothy 3:17). We cannot just look at what the popular view--or the majority view may be. Jesus said, "Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way that leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Matthew 7:14). We must commit ourselves to be what Christians were in the New Testament--nothing more and nothing less.
I appreciate the Scriptures that you offered. I fully accept what each of them teaches about the Holy Spirit being given to all believers. I do not deny that "having the Spirit" (Jude 19) is a mark of whether one is in Christ or not. The question is how does the Spirit dwell in a believer?
All of us would agree that not all believers manifest the same signs or wonders of the Holy Spirit. Paul himself illustrates this in asking, "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" (I Corinthians 12:29-30). If we can agree on this, it shows us that "having the Spirit" can mean something different for those who are equally in Christ.
The case of Timothy raises an important question about this difference. Here was a man with some spiritual gift (II Timothy 1:6), yet he did not share the benefit which was promised to the apostles that they did not need to "worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit" (Mark 13:11). Instead, he is told to "give attention to reading, exhortation, to doctrine" (I Timothy 4:13) and to "study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Timothy 2:15, KJV). Doesn't that tell us something about the difference in the way the Holy Spirit worked in believers in general and in the apostles specifically?
I contend that when people allow the word to dwell in them (not just knowledge of the word, but belief and application of that word) it is the Holy Spirit living in them. We can compare what is said about the word dwelling in the believer and find that it equates with what is said about the Spirit dwelling in us (cf. John 8:31, 15:7). We diminish what is said about the power of the word when we contend that God has to do something additional in the heart to give the word power. That is not what the Bible teaches (cf. Hebrews 4:12; Ephesians 6:17).
Finally, you said that you wish I would quote from "sanctioned published professionals" I contend that the apostles and prophets of God led by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are the only "sanctioned published professionals" that we can rely on with full confidence. All others (myself included) are subject to their own weaknesses, misunderstanding, environment, background, bias, and preconceived notions. We must stand Sola Scriptura--"on the Scriptures alone."
With that said, I think I understand that perhaps your concern is, since very few people out there teach the things which I have, how can it be true if some crazy guy on the internet is the only person you have ever heard say these things? I understand if that is your concern. Below are a few quotes which address the issue of the promise to the apostles vs. all believers:
quote:
James Burton Coffman
The most poisonous errors have been widely held and devoutly believed by Christians of all generations, thus leaving an intolerable burden upon any view that would make these precious words a promise to all believers. Jesus was here speaking to "apostles only." (See under 15:27; 15:27 and 16:4.) Again, the very manner of the Spirit's guidance of the apostles into all truth by bringing to their "remembrance" what Jesus had said (John 14:26) denies the application of this promise to Christians who have never "heard" the Lord say anything. (Commentary on the Gospel of John, by James Burton Coffman, John 16:13).
Available online at: http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=joh&chapter=016
quote:
David Lipscomb
The ground of our certainty of the word of God is that the Spirit guided into the truth stated. All departure from the word of God concerning entrance into the church and into Christ comes from the idea that the Spirit teaches men outside the word of God ... TO give up the word of God as the only direction and guidance of the Holy Spirit is to give loose rein to dreams, imaginations, reasonings, and philosophies of men. (A Commentary on the Gospel of John, by David Lipscomb, Nashville: Gospel Advocate Company, 1960, p. 232).
I would probably differ with the following author in his understanding of "illumination"—however, I cite him as an example of one who recognized the distinction between the work of the Holy Spirit in the Apostles and all believers.
quote:
Abraham Kuyper
The holy apostles appear in their writings as such, and not otherwise. St. John, the most beloved among the twelve, testifies that the Lord Jesus gave them as apostles a rare promise, saying, “He shall guide you into all truth,” (John xvi. 13) a word that may not be applied to others, but to the apostles exclusively. And again: "The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things whatsoever I have said unto you." (John xiv. 26); which promise was not intended for all, but for the apostles only, securing them a gift evidently distinct from illumination. In fact, this promise was nothing else than the permanent endowment with the gift received only temporarily when they went forth on their first mission among Israel: "For it is, not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." (Matt. x. 20). (The Work of the Holy Spirit, by Abraham Kuyper, Funk & Wagnalls, 1900. pp. 153-154).
Available online at: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/kuyper/holy_spirit.html
Thank you once again for your consideration. Please continue to test these things. If you find my teaching to be in error, I would count you as my friend if you can show me where that is the case. Thanks.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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From our FWIW department:
quote:
Is the same danger possible in our day? The Holy Spirit warned through the mouth of Paul, "the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"
The problem is that even a cult can take scriptures and expound on them. Anyone can 'stand on scripture.' So there must be something deeper with regard to conviction that every follower must be qualified by, to let them know the way.
The Spirit bears witness to the truth. This is deeper than being convinced of one's own reading. This is however foreign to some who profess to follow. They may mouth something that similates the truth to the mental satisfaction of some; but usually it can be determined by objective people that the heart is not really in it for the pronouncer. It is nevertheless into something. The question is what? "If the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will follow?" If one 'reads' with the wrong intent, the interpretation will not be correct. Therefore what is expounded upon will not be correct.
quote:
I contend that when people allow the word to dwell in them (not just knowledge of the word, but belief and application of that word) it is the Holy Spirit living in them.
Here is the danger! What is believed is the difference between light and darkness. Here is why Jesus said:
"Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness."(Luk 11:35)
Let me paraphrase that. Take heed that the illumination that you have is not self misleading. Someone could feel that they have illumination in them, and attribute that to the Holy Spirit. However, the Holy Spirit bears witness of Himself. Therefore, one recognizes Him. As Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice." If one is objective, they will listen to know. If they have no peace about it, they should explore it more.
Peace and joy are sure evidence! Whereas a critical spirit does not have its roots in Him. Peace and joy unshakable when challenged, are joyous witness in our soul, that we are His.
"Against these there is no such law." Gal
A critical spirit that would make choices for another is not of His Spirit. Herein is why in Timothy he says to "Exhort and convnice the gainsayer." Not dominate!
Anyone can listen, and choose based on what he or she hears. They are choosing for themselves. You would think that they would choose wisely.
Posted by Isaiah (Member # 6699) on
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Being the odd man out here, I won't try to convince any that the spirit is not a person -but just consider the following...
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
...but as for how it works in one (rather -how God works in one by his spirit)...
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he ("he" not in the greek) will.
2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
God's spirit allows us to think and understand as God does....
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have THE MIND OF CHRIST.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
...empowering us to daily overcome sin, live Godly lives, and have a Godly mindset....
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Still adamant huh, Isaiah? Good post though, for sure.
Well, Jesus is a person; and His spirit is in us, if we have believed.
quote:
Les Lookey here again! quote:
I contend that when people allow the word to dwell in them (not just knowledge of the word, but belief and application of that word) it is the Holy Spirit living in them. We can compare what is said about the word dwelling in the believer and find that it equates with what is said about the Spirit dwelling in us (cf. John 8:31, 15:7). We diminish what is said about the power of the word when we contend that God has to do something additional in the heart to give the word power. That is not what the Bible teaches (cf. Hebrews 4:12; Ephesians 6:17).
The phrase 'belief and application of that word' likely indicates that the heart is 'doing, to accomplish'. What is this based upon? It is based upon the fact that the word read off of the page has life if it is a person. Jesus is the word of God. That makes the word a person. If you overlook this, then you have not believed. The word on the page points to a person. The result is a relationship with that person. Yet the words can have no life if the reader overrules the life pointed to therein, by personal application, thereby defeating relationship.
quote:
We diminish what is said about the power of the word when we contend that God has to do something additional in the heart to give the word power.
THis is fundamental. The word is power. If the word is believed, it is power, for it is a person. The person of Jesus Christ is power. He is the power of a resurrected life. If the word, thought to be believed, is something that you apply, it is removed from being something that you 'have' (by grace), which the reading thereof is designed to indicate, or reveal. Jesus is a person that you have by believing, and the Word points the heart to Him.
Based on what was stated by the quotes, one is dealing with a philosophy, not a living relationship. Relationship will yield these things that are held to be true by those professing. Miracle evidences of Him are not in short supply. These are the fruit and works.
Absence of these things indicates that the heart believes unto the gospel of the sacrifice of Cain. There was no life in the sacrifice of Cain. But in Able's, though death of an animal was involved, life was in the shedding of the blood, symbolically. In other words, self application is not receiving, nor is it believing. It may be well intended, but it doesn't receive the life of the Lord.
So, since you brought it up, "God is a Spirit [nuff said] and they who worship Him must worship in Spirit and in truth," not in application.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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Prayerfully Study the Bible so that the Spirit has something to bring to rememberance.
John.14
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Psalms.40
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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This illustrates it well.
Quot:
Psalms.40
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
The scriptures point to Him. See! It says "I come." In the volume of the book, in the reading thereof, I come.
It could be said that, "What you believe about me, limits me."
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
So, since you brought it up, "God is a Spirit [nuff said] and they who worship Him must worship in Spirit and in truth," not in application.
I say Application is individual and varies to your gift and whatsoever you do with this gift do so as unto the Lord. It is part of personal worship.
Eph.4
[1] I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
[2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
[3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
[4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
[7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Dorcus made clothing (her gift) for the widows and was so needed in the early body of Christ that Peter raised her from the dead.
Acts.9
[39] Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
[40] But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
[41] And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
[42] And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.
[43] And it came to pass, that he tarried many days in Joppa with one Simon a tanner.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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You miss the point B. Did she make it by a work of the flesh, or the enabling of the grace of God by the Holy Spirit. Here is what Cain did. He determined in his heart that he was going to give something of the work of his hands to God. God determined that He was going to give Able the knowledge of what to offer, which was a sacrifice.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
This illustrates it well.
The scriptures point to Him. See! It says "I come." In the volume of the book, in the reading thereof, I come.
It could be said that, "What you believe about me, limits me."
Not so. What you read or hear or see or feel about Christ is the limit. That even Helen Keller proved...She could only feel sensations brought to her vessel, yet the Love of Christ embraced her heart.
Romans 10
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Whas this? This is what I said. But here are your words for it:
Quot: "Not so. What you read or hear or see or feel about Christ is the limit."
This will limit what you believe.
You know, I saw something about that on tv the other week. however, i did a book report on Hellen Keller when I was in the seventh grade. I don't remember anything about her being saved. I remember the opposite. She denounced religion. But it was a long time ago. Which is it?
What condition are you in WyldB? Are you a purple heart?
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
What condition are you in WyldB? Are you a purple heart?
As I always have been from my younger days of service to the Navy.
Navy and Marine Corps Medal
Authorization. 10 U.S.C. 6246.
Eligibility Requirements. Awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Navy or the U.S. Marine Corps, distinguishes himself/herself by heroism not involving actual conflict with the enemy. For acts of life- saving, or attempted lifesaving, it is required that the action be performed at the risk of one's own life.
John.15
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Isaiah,
On the matter of the "personhood" (to coin a word) of the Holy Spirit, I concede that it is a difficult concept for us to grasp how there can be one God (I Corinthians 8:6) composed of three persons. However, the evidence of Scripture demands that we come to this conclusion.
As you pointed out there are many times that Scripture will speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit doing the same thing. A case in point is the indwelling: The body of the Christian is the "temple of the Holy Spirit" (I Corinthians 6:19), yet it is also said to the Christian "God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts" (Galatians 4:6), to the apostles, it was said of their indwelling "it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you" (Matthew 10:20). This shows that all three persons are divine--all are one God.
Yet, it is also clear that there is a distinction of "personhood." Jesus in the garden said to the Father, "not My will, but Yours be done" (Luke 22:42). If Jesus had some will that was distinct from the Father's He had distinct "personhood." In the same way, it is said of the Holy Spirit, "He, will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak" (John 16:13). If the Spirit is simply an extension of the Father then the words He would speak would be under His own authority. As with many teachings in Scripture, it is not for us to understand everything about things that may be difficult to grasp, but we must accept Scripture for what it says.
I have attached a graphic which is very ancient which attempts to illustrate what Scripture teaches on this matter. It was originally in Latin, I have translated it into English. It basically shows all are God, but each is distinct from the other.
Thanks for studying over this post.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Nice medal.
You have your life. Do you have your limb?
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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All limbs present and accounted for with exception of the head muscle,lol. Did sustain damage to right ear and eye. Blew out my knee.....Burned out both eyes and lost my sight for a few days.. These were all at seperate times.
Jesus/Navy docs did a good fix on each.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Good to hear you are all there. And thanx for the service. God bless.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi again Kyle,
What exactly is it that some crazy guy is saying on the internet that is giving Carol a false perception of the operation of the Holy Spirit?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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oneinchrist,
I referred to myself as "some crazy guy on the internet." Carol expressed strong disagreement with what I was teaching and I was acknowledging to her that while my understanding may not be the common view, I believe it is Scriptural. I think that she asked me for some other sources because it may be hard for her to give any credance to what I say, since I imagine I must seem her her like just "some crazy guy on the internet." ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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I guess it just surprises me that you would even think that anyone would be thinking that you are crazy.
I guess I am trying to figure out what seems to be a logical conclusion to you. It seems to me, correct me if I am wrong, that you believe that if the Holy Spirit were to speak to a believer or to perform a miracle today that it would show the Word of God to be insufficient? In other words, if a person claimed to have received word from the Holy Spirit they must be lying because that would show God's written Word to be insufficient. In other words, Jesus will not authorize the Holy Spirit to speak to any believer because it would never be necessary?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Daniel,
After preaching for 20 years now, I have encountered many people who have differed with my understanding of what Scripture teaches. I understand that when someone teaches something much different from what most people are accustomed to hearing, that person might seem, like Paul did to Festus, "mad" (Acts 26:24).
I am not in a position to know the heart of someone to know if they are lying, or if they simply are interpreting something in a certain way. It is clear that there were many times in Scripture and between the Testaments when there was Divine silence, or when there was "no widespread revelation" (I Samuel 3:1). I would love to be able to say, yes, God speaks in addition to the word now to further reveal truth to Christians. The problem is:
1.) The Bible teaches a difference between the Holy Spirit's work in the apostles and all believers.
2.) The Bible teaches that miraculous gifts would cease.
3.) The claims of modern man regarding the work of the Holy Spirit differ greatly from the manner, method, purpose, and work of the Holy Spirit in Scripture.
4.) The revelation of inspired Scripture has ended. Even in Biblical times there was not a 2000 year period of silence. If that does not indicate some difference in the work of the Holy Spirit what does?
5.) Modern claims of inspiration fuel division. On this very message board I have seen different people who each claim that the Holy Spirit is leading them teach very different things. Is the Spirit leading them in different directions? Or is one side (or both sides) mistaken in what they interpret to be the direct operation of the Holy Spirit?
You shared with me an experience you had in which you felt an answer to prayer in the thought that came to your mind regarding the attitude of Christ. I have had many occasions in my life when Scriptures that I have studied have come to mind. I am quite willing to say that in the fact that the word is "living and powerful" and the "sword of the Spirit" that meditating upon the word is the Spirit working in the heart. However, I have also experienced times in my life when Scriptures (and certain concepts about Scripture) came into my mind which later proved to be incorrect.
I don't find that direct revelation of the Holy Spirit in Scripture was of that nature. It was unquestionable. It was always correct, true, and accurate. That is why we have in Scripture a collection of revealed works from people of different backgrounds, languages, economic levels, education, and experience yet they unite together to form a unified whole with no contradition of fact, purpose, or doctrine. If the religious world of today (which all claims to speak at the direction of the Holy Spirit) was united in the "same mind and same judgment" (I Corinthians 1:10)--if the religious world of today all taught the same thing "everywhere in every church" (I Corinthians 4:17) I might believe that the Spirit was directly leading them. Until that day, I will stand on the "Holy Scriptures which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (II Timothy 3:15). Thanks for your questions.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, Hittite1963. I have limited free time but I scanned/read most of your Topic post a bit closer today.
And in general you seem to propose that the Holy Spirit was given to the disciples and Apostles in a different way, or measure, than it is given today.
And secondly, you seem to propose that the Holy Spirit's work was primarily done for now in the 1st century A.D. and thereafter the Word of God is now for us, which Word of God speaks to us, guides us, and directs us in our daily paths.
That was the gist of what I got you were saying. Feel free to correct any part of it.
Okay. I do think that what happened in the 1st century A.D. required some EXTRAORDINARY ACTIVITY BY GOD and BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
In paricular, God had to BREAK WITH almost 1,500 years of Mosaic Law (which could not save but only foreshadow and show in figure), and this BREAK had to be THOROUGH.
And making the break THOROUGH was not an easy matter because, for one there was the temple of the LORD at Jerusalem, and for two, there were synagogues in Judah/Benjamin and in Galilee and there was the power of 1,500 years of Mosaic tradition.
So I do think that God had to do some SPECTACULAR things with the Holy Spirit to make this break a reality.
And so we see God assembling the Gentile Cornelius and his friends, and God miraculously caused the Holy Spirit to fall on them as the Holy Spirit originally fell on the 120 disciples assembled for Pentecost. As a result, Cornelius took the gospel into Japheth territory to the Gentiles of Europe, etc., or to the uncircumcision.
And at Pentecost the Holy Spirit fell on the 120 assembled disciples, all of them apparently Jews, and these in turn began to take the gospel to the circumcision.
And lastly, the Holy Spirit fell on Paul near Damascus and Paul became the apostle to the Gentiles, along with Cornelius and his friends.
But in the meantime, the temple of the LORD at Jerusalem was still standing and was an obstacle to the gospel as long as it was still standing:
Hebrews 9
8 The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while the first tabernacle was yet standing.
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience.
The LORD therefore sent Titus to destroy the temple of the LORD at Jerusalem in 70 A.D. to remove THAT obstacle.
And lastly, the remnant of Judah was DISPERSED into the nations so that they could do as little damage as possible.
Hittite1963, I therefore do think that God and the Holy Spirit had to do some DRASTIC THINGS in the 1st century A.D.
And it is possible that thereafter such drastic measures were no longer needed and that the PRE-EMINENT tool that the LORD would henceforth use in the subsequent centuries IS THE WORD OF GOD.
Okay, that is possible. So let me ask you this, Hittite1963. You may already have discussed this in one of your answers or other Topics, but I have limited time, so...
are you proposing that the Word of God is the only thing God is using right now for the believer, and, if so, what, if anything, are the current functions of the Holy Spirit for or inside a believer?
And also, after the 1st century A.D., is the believer's spirit of man STILL QUICKENED by the Holy Spirit so that the spirit of man is REPAIRED and is MADE ALIVE again or is fixed enough to be made FUNCTIONAL again, or how do you see that?
And lastly, what does the earnest or downpayment of the Spirit mean then in the following verse?
2 Corinthians 1:22
Who has also sealed us and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
What, if anything, does the earnest of the Spirit do in us while it is in our hearts? Is it just a seal like a stamp, or is an earnest or downpayment of the Spirit in our hearts doing something?
Or is this earnest or downpayment of the Spirit in our hearts only consist of the love of God which was spread abroad in our hearts:
Romans 5:5
And hope makes not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given to us.
I.e., does the earnest into our hearts only refer to the love of God which was spread in our hearts?
Thanks for your kind answers. Be blessed and be a blessing. eden
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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I guess it would'nt suprise me for us to see a miracle of God happen right before our eyes and for the learned to raise up there voice and say...."That is the work of the devil. Jesus foretold that there would by lying signs and wonders before the end."
I guess its only the devil that gets to do the signs and wonders in the "last days". Im not sure if the prophet Joel would agree with that though.
Kyle, you may believe that you are speaking scriptural truth, but you are also willing to take the risk to speak doubt into the hearts and minds of those believers that believe that God can do great things in our lives as long as we will to do His will.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
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I'll briefly try to summarize the work of the Holy Spirit without references to biblical texts to "prove" my points. Most of you will know or can find the appropriate texts to support or refute my points.
It is the Holy Spirit who is the agent of God's work in creation (with Jesus), the giving of instructions to humans (particularly his "children"), the "calling" of those he chooses to serve him, the transformation of those who are being saved for eternal fellowship with him (by being born again), the inspiration of those whom he selects to write his words, the inspiration of those he anoints to preach and to teach and to interpret his word, the healing of those whom he chooses to bless with his miraculous cures and comforting powers, and of course in all of the redemptive work of Jesus in his life and his teachings and his miracles and his crucifixion and his resurrection.
It is the presence of the Holy Spirit and his work that led Abram from his home to the land of Canaan and established God's covenant with him and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants. It is the Holy Spirit who called Moses and enabled him and the Israelites to leave Egypt and to become God's "people". It is the Holy Spirit who enabled Joshua and all of the judges, the kings, the prophets, and the priests to serve God by leading his people, instructing them in his will, and enabling them to be in a relationship with him. This work of the Holy Spirit is well documented throughout the Old Testament.
It is also well documented within the New Testament. It is because of this work that we have the New Testament. The Holy Spirit is the source of the documents that we identify as the New Testament. It the Holy Spirit that gives these documents their divine authority, their godly "truth", and their convicting power. Without the presence of the Holy Spirit in the mind of any reader, the words of these documents are "foolishness". So the Holy Spirit must be present in the understanding of these documents, the collection of these writings, the translation of their words, and the teaching of their "truth". Jesus did not indicate to his disciples and to us that he was going to leave them with a book, but rather that he was going to leave them with "the Counselor", "the Spirit of truth".
I don't believe that God has removed this Spirit from his people in the world today. I don't believe that he has ended the work of the Holy Spirit in those that he chooses to send (apostles) throughout the world to continue to serve him. I don't believe that God has removed the wisdom of this Spirit from those he has chosen to write more "good news" about Jesus and his love. And I don't believe that God has left those that he has called to "teach" his children and to "witness" to his Son on their own in regard to what he expects of them and how they are to participate in his redemptive work in the world as they share in a personal relationship with him.
This work and this relationship has never been easy to do and to understand, but it must always be done in the presence and through the power of the Holy Spirit, otherwise it is futile. If the preaching and teaching and writing that I have been doing since 1953 is not aointed by the Holy Spirit it is nothing but my personal opinion, and parts of it, including this present statement, are subject to error.
I hope that this brief summary of my perspective on the work of the Holy Spirit has been helpful in this discussion. If what we say and do doesn't glorify God in Jesus, it did not come from the Holy Spirit!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Yaaae Eden! (oneinchrist - shhhhh! Don't be offended. PTL!)
The New Dispensation
The last that I heard the New Dispensation began with the resurrection of Christ. I am not aware of any additional New Dispensation, or sub-dispensation of the original. Some want to argue that the miracles, signs and wonders ceased with the Apostles. Such diminishing of them would suggest the advent of another dispensation. However if these things ceased, why would the fruit of the Spirit still continue on as always? Is it not the same spirit. "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." (1Co 12:4 )
And are we to drop from the list of pastors, teachers, and evangelist - the apostles, and prophets? How do we selectively discriminate? Shall we butcher the word to make it to fit our understanding – or rationalize it to fit our understanding? How then would one laying claim to Christ be any different from those highly educated people who claim to be Theologians, who do not even believe in the Virgin Birth? Can you be a Christian and not believe in this? In certain circles you can, but not in the domain of His Glory.
The word that was written to them in the hour of the formation of the church, was written for us also. Do we not read it the same as those initially addressed thereby, in the day they were written? Here is the trouble with the theory of those who believe that the operation of the gifts that we read about in the book of Acts were for the Apostles only, and ceased with them.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
Every man! This means the manifestation of the Spirit, the self same as was imparted to the Apostles was to every man. Every man experienced the manifestations of the Spirit. It was not limited to the Apostles. In the same way that it was not limited to the Apostles, it was not limited to yesteryear, as doubters would have some to believe. Yet those who are certain of themselves are willing to preach that they know the way, and point out while they are at it, the very believers as those who do not. This is the Spirit of Antichrist which reigned during the inquisition.
Let’s look at this. Who was God displeased with in the wilderness? He was displeased with those who didn’t honor Him in faith after seeing His miraculous power being performed on their behalf. They were delivered from Pharaoh by miracle power. They crossed the Red Sea by miracle power. They obtained the Promised Land by miracle power. Nowhere in their history was miracle power not involved. So, based on evidence of miraculous demonstration, we could call them ‘unbelievers’ with whom He was displeased. Yet they were Jews. They were of the same clan. By way of this fact they were certain of themselves, that they were the same as everybody else. But God showed them otherwise. There was no room for Him with them, so He had no room for them with Him. This should speak rather loudly about what pleases Him.
And where do we draw the line? If all of those evidences supposedly ceased, then why does God still answer prayer. Would that not be just as miraculous as the gifts?
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
quote:
hittite1963
2.) The Bible teaches that miraculous gifts would cease.
please reference where the scriptures teach this!
while I believe Benny Hinn and those like him are lairs and cheats it does not change the fact that Yahweh / God is the same yesterday, today forever.
if Yahweh ever did one miracle He is still doing miracles...
I am serving Yahweh today because of a miracle...
my oldest daughter, my only child at the time had cancer of the kidneys. We were inform she would never see her 5th birthday, she was then 14 months old, she is now thirty four year old and has not seen a doctor even for a cold since we put her in Yahweh's hand 32 plus a few months ago.
I do not follow signs and wonders, Yahshua said Satan would by signs and wonders deceive if possible the very elect,
hittite1963 never ever say Yahweh does not do this or that if you can see in the scriptures He has done it before.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Its not surprising that those who recognize that the purpose of Gods miracles is wider than attesting to the authority of Gods servants are more open to the possibility of miracles continuing today.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Hey folks,
Several of you have offered a number of posts with some important points which I want to address, but it will take me a little while to deal with the various points. I appreciate your patience. It may take me a few days. I did want to address a few points immediately:
_____________________
Daniel,
You said:
quote:
Kyle, you may believe that you are speaking scriptural truth, but you are also willing to take the risk to speak doubt into the hearts and minds of those believers that believe that God can do great things in our lives as long as we will to do His will.
I certainly do not want to do anything to cause anyone to doubt God. I do believe that there is great danger when man, in their misunderstanding of the word of God, ends up trusting their own spirit rather than the revelation of God. The Lord warned through Ezekiel, "Thus says the Lord GOD: 'Woe to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing!'" (Ezekiel 13:3). I believe a careful understanding of Scripture can allow us to avoid this danger. I absolutely do not want to suggest that Satan can do wonders but God cannot. I am confident that to whatever degree Satan is allowed to operate, Christians would be given whatever they would need to overcome that activity. However, just as Joel 2 showed that gifts of the Spirit would be poured out in the age of the Messiah, Zechariah 13:1-2 shows that "the prophet" and "the evil spirit" will pass from the land. That shows a time when both the spiritual gift (at least) of prophecy and the direct activity of evil spirits will be ended.
____________________
Eden,
Thanks again for considering this post even with limited free time. Lord willing, I will try to briefly address your points in the near future.
I did want to just address one point--I don't think that we can prove from Scripture that the Holy Spirit fell on 120 believers on Pentecost. That number is mentioned in Acts 1:15 just before Matthias is chosen. However, the immediate antecedant of "they were all together in one place" (Acts 2:1) is Matthias and the other apostles, when it says "He was numbered with the eleven" (Acts 1:26). Nor do we find that 120 people spoke in tongues but "Peter, standing up with the eleven"(Acts 2:14) spoke in tongues.
____________________
becauseHElives,
Scripture teaches Christians to pray in the assurance that "the prayer of faith will save the sick and the Lord will raise him up" (James 5:15). We don't know exactly how such prayers are answered. Signs and wonders in Scripture were generally Divine actions which suspended (or operated contrary to) laws of nature. Answers to pray may come about through natural means in the providence of God which operate within the laws of nature. We still owe God thanks, however an answer to comes about. We can accept that the miraculous spiritual gifts given to confirm the word ended, yet still trust that God will answer prayer in what everway He chooses.
____________________
Thanks for your patience and for continuing to study this issue. May God be glorified by our efforts to understand His will.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
:
Daniel,
One other point came to mind. I'm not sure I totally understand your point when you said:
quote:
Its not surprising that those who recognize that the purpose of Gods miracles is wider than attesting to the authority of Gods servants are more open to the possibility of miracles continuing today.
I think you are suggesting that miracles served a broader purpose than just confirmation of the message. If that is your point, you might consider a few passages. In Mark 16:20, after promising some amazing signs that would accompany the apostles, the Holy Spirit declares:
quote:
And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.
Here the Holy Spirit describes what was accomplished by the "signs." Another text is which Hebrews 2:2-4 compares the Law of Moses (i.e. "the word spoken by angels") with the gosple message of such a "great salvation" declaring:
quote:
For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
Here, in the same way, the purpose of these gifts is not described as healing all sick, helping people avoid sin, or even confirming individual faith, but rather confirming the validity of the message. It was a way of "God bearing witness." Thanks. Let's keep studying together.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, Hittite1963. You said quote:
Eden,
Thanks again for considering this post even with limited free time. Lord willing, I will try to briefly address your points in the near future.
I did want to just address one point--I don't think that we can prove from Scripture that the Holy Spirit fell on 120 believers on Pentecost. That number is mentioned in Acts 1:15 just before Matthias is chosen. However, the immediate antecedant of "they were all together in one place" (Acts 2:1) is Matthias and the other apostles, when it says "He was numbered with the eleven" (Acts 1:26). Nor do we find that 120 people spoke in tongues but "Peter, standing up with the eleven"(Acts 2:14) spoke in tongues.
I reread Acts 1 and Acts 2, and I agree that the Scriptures do not seem to say that the 120 disciples were also baptized with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
Instead, there were a number of evidences to indicate that just the 12 Apostles were baptized in the Holy Spirit at Pentecost for this particular purpose.
For instance, the unbelieving Jews said "Aren't these all Galileans" and it seems doubtful that all 120 disciples could have been "all Galileans".
And also twice in Acts 1 or in Acts 2 the names of all or most of the Apostles are mentioned together and Acts 1 and Acts 2 really seems to be about the Apostles and not at all about the 120 disciples, like, "Peter stood up with the eleven".
Because, if the entire 120 had been baptized with the Holy Spirit as happened at least to the 12 Apostles, then surely there would have been more mention of the unusual behavior of the 120 also, and there IS nothing written about the 120 AT ALL, except that there were (perhaps at any given time) some 120 disciples gathered there, but that is really the only ref to the 120 in Acts 1 and Acts 2.
Okay then, so I'll give you that.
But please when time permits explain then what, if anything, the non-Apostolic believers received in terms of the Holy Spirit and when they received it.
And also what, if anything, the earnest or downpayment of the Spirit does in a believer.
Is this earnest of the Spirit refer only to the love of God which is shed abroad in our hearts, or does this earnest or downpayment of the Spirit that every believer seems to receive, what can it do, in your opinion?
And is the spirit of man in the believer repaired or made alive upon first believing?
And does the Spirit come to live inside of each believer, and if so, when does that happen?
Thank you, eden
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Eden,
I'm working on a reply to the questions in your post. Lord willing I'll have it later today or tomorrow. Thanks. I appreciate your patience and willingness to study.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Daniel,
I forgot one point I intended to make on your comment:
quote:
Kyle, you may believe that you are speaking scriptural truth, but you are also willing to take the risk to speak doubt into the hearts and minds of those believers that believe that God can do great things in our lives as long as we will to do His will.
As I said above, I don't want to cause doubt in God, but something I have encountered far too often is an attitude that says, "I don't need to study the Bible--the Holy Spirit leads me directly!" My grandfather once had a man tell him that if he still had to study to prepare sermons it was because the Holy Spirit wasn't leading him enough, going on to say that he never had to study anymore. I have actually seen cases where people claim that the Holy Spirit is leading them to do those things that violate the word of God. "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace" (I Corinthians 14:33).
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi again Kyle,
It was you who I thought considered the signs and wonders to attest to the authority given to the apostles. That is the reason that I thought you had concluded that the signs and wonders died away....because the apostles are no longer living.
You are confusing me. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 reads..... But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY MAN to profit withal. For one
is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tounges; to another interpretation of tounges: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to EVERY MAN severally as He will.
It appears that the Holy Spirit is no respecter of persons. When the Word spread to the gentile nations it followed with manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the lives of those who accepted the truth.
What exactly are you saying ceased and at what point in time?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Hey Folks,
I have put together a rather lengthy reply to Eden's questions which I think may address a number of the points brought up in your posts. I will post it shortly. I apologize for the length but I have tried to be as careful and as thorough as possible. I encourage you to take some time to look over it and test the points made by the standard of God's word. Thanks.
Daniel,
Regarding your point about the "gifts" mentioned in I Corinthians 12:7-11, I agree that in this context (which spans chapters 12-14) in which Paul is addressing the Corintians's abuse of miraculous spiritual gifts, most of what he addresses are miraculous gifts. However, we can see from Romans 12:6-8 that Paul is not teaching that "all" Christians at all times will have such gifts. Paul there mentions gifts which are both miraculous and non-miraculous in nature. The Romans had not yet received the "laying on" of any apostle's hands (Romans 1:11). This at the very least shows that a person can be a Christian without miraculous spiritual gifts. Thanks for your study.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Eden,
Thanks again for considering this post even with limited free time. I should have realized when I began this topic that this is an issue which not only generates strong emotions, but is also one which cannot be fully addressed with short, quick answers. As a result, please accept my apologies ahead of time for the length of the following response, but it does reflect what I understand the Bible to teach about the questions you posed.
____________________
The Limits of Man’s Knowledge
Let me start by expressing that we must recognize the limits of our knowledge about these matters. All that we can know is what has been revealed to us. The Holy Spirit said through Moses, “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us” (Deuteronomy 29:29). On this subject we are told that some things that God does within a Christian are “above” our capacity to think. Paul wrote that God, “is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us” (Ephesians 3:20). Yet, the danger is that if we are not careful we may find ourselves in the same position as the false prophets of Ezekiel’s day – speaking from our “our own spirit.” The Lord declared, “Woe to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing!” (Ezekiel 13:3). If God is not the “author of confusion” (I Corinthians 14:33), and there is such a thing as the “unity of the Spirit” (Ephesians 4:3), we can rest assured that anything that God would do in the heart and lives of people will harmonize with what has been revealed in His word. As such, we can use Scripture to “test all things, hold fast what is good” (I Thess 5:21). If we find something in Scripture—we can stand on it. If we do not, we must reject it— “Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it” (Psalm 127:1).
I appreciate that you seem to recognize the point I have tried to emphasize that the dramatic and unquestionable events of the New Testament differ from claims made today. Your question "what, if anything, are the current functions of the Holy Spirit for or inside a believer?" is a very good one. Let’s try to answer it.
What Is “Spirit”?”
Part of the difficulty of this comes from the fact that so little has been revealed to us about exactly what "spirit" is. We are given all that we need to know, but there are undoubtedly many “secret things” on this subject which we have not been told. We know "God is Spirit" (John 4:24). We know that God is said to "fill heaven and earth" (Jeremiah 23:24). We know that “a spirit does not have flesh and bones” (Luke 24:37). We know that "there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Lord gives him understanding" (Job 32:8). This is said of all of mankind in general. This "spirit" within is a means by which God can know our hearts. Proverbs 20:7 teaches us, "The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all the inner depths of the heart." We are all children of the "Father of spirits" (Hebrews 12:9). As such...
quote:
If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust (Job 34:14-15).
So, all of us only live by the mercy and continued power of God. God created laws of nature which continue to function, but it is also true that "in Him all things consist" (Colossians 1:17). Therefore, when He "gathers to Himself His Spirit" then, Ecclesiastes tells us "the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). This is why James tells us, “the body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26).
"Spirit" or "spirit"?
We should note here that some translations use the custom of capitalizing what the translators believe are references to Deity, as a sign of respect. In most cases the context makes it clear if we are talking about God’s “Spirit” or a created “spirit.” However, sometimes this is subject to the judgment of the translators. Neither Hebrew nor New Testament Greek used such a convention. So, just because a passage may say “Spirit” instead of “spirit” doesn’t necessarily mean it is a reference to Deity.
Spirit In the Sense of “Mindset” or Disposition”
Scripture will speak of "spirit" in different ways. There is "spirit" in the sense of the inner life force of a person which is made in the image of God and survives the death of the body (James 2:26). However, there is also "spirit" in the sense of one's inner mindset or disposition. Christian women are to have a “gentle and quiet spirit” (I Peter 3:4). We see there can be a "spirit of gentleness" (I Corintians 4:21); a "spirit of bondage" (Romans 8:15); a "spirit of faith" (II Corintians 4:13) a "spirit of stupor" (Romans 11:8), or a "spirit of error" (I John 4:6). Sometimes this mindset or disposition may come at the influence of another spirit which is evil. Paul speaks of "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2). Yet, sometimes the mindset which is patterned after such an evil influence is also said to be "the spirit of the world" (I Corinthians 2:12). In such an instance it is unclear if it is the mindset which is like the “spirit of the world” or a separate evil spirit which is being referenced. It is also unclear when this is direct (as in the case of possession) or indirect. Jesus told those who opposed Him, “you are of your father the devil and the desires of you father you want to do” (John 8:44). It is a mistake to imagine that every time one is said to follow the influence of evil it is due to direct influence. We are personally to blame for our own choices and our own sins. The Holy Spirit teaches us through James, “each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed” (James 1:14).
It might seem strange to us, that both a mindset and the inner life force can both be referred to as “spirit,” but if we look at how Scripture views man it is nowhere near as confusing as it might seem. Scripture teaches that we are spiritual beings interacting with other spiritual beings. This is true whether we are talking about our interaction with God, evil spirits, or our interaction with other people. Paul warned the Corinthians, “For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough” (2 Corinthians 11:4-5). John teaches that we must "test the spirits, whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world" (I John 4:1). How does one test or receive a “spirit”? We cannot see a spirit. The only way that we can test another person's spirit is by testing what he teaches. The faith, doctrine, disposition, and mindset of a person, reflects whether his or her spirit is in harmony with the things of God or in harmony with “the spirit of this world.” Scripture describes our choice to follow a particular mindset as following a certain “spirit.” This is what Paul calls “the spirit of your mind” (Eph 4:23).
“What Manner of Spirit You Are Of”
We see this when James and John ask to call down fire on the cities that rejected Jesus. He told them, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of” (Luke 9:55). In a similar situation, when Peter told Jesus that He would not be put to death, Jesus told him, “Get behind me Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God.” (Matthew 16:23). Certainly, Scripture describes Satan exerting direct influence on people at times. So, we might be tempted to say here that in both instances Jesus is indicating that an evil spirit (or Satan in the case of Peter) was directly influencing these men, but is that necessarily what it means? In the case of Peter we notice, Satan is addressed with the words “Get behind me Satan!” but Peter was rebuked, “you are not mindful.” Whatever influence Satan exerts here it is not direct enough that Peter loses any responsibility. To whatever degree Satan acts directly, Peter is shaping his own mindset in harmony with what Satan wants.
“Spirit and Power of Elijah”
Compare this with the prophecy given about John the Baptist. Zacharias was told, “He will go before the Lord in the spirit and the power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17). Was Elijah directly indwelling John? Was this Elijah reincarnated? Absolutely not! Was it simply God’s Spirit (i.e. the Holy Spirit) in John? Notice, he is told that John would go before the Lord but he would do so in the spirit and power of Elijah. If it is just God’s Spirit why is Elijah even mentioned? I believe the point is that just as Elijah had to be brave and resist evil to call Israel back to God, John would do the same to call the Jews to prepare for the Messiah. John taught with the same disposition and mindset as Elijah—He did so “in his spirit.”
“The Same Spirit”
Paul demonstrates the same thing in his writings. He speaks of walking in the “same spirit” with Titus (II Cor 12:18). He tells the Corinthians, in his instructions to discipline the one practicing sexual immorality, that he will be with them “present in spirit” (I Cor 5:3). There is no indication that it means (as elsewhere in Scripture) that the Spirit would take him somewhere. Rather, he was of one mind with them. He was united with their purpose and actions. He says to the Colossians, in the same way, “I am with you in spirit” (Colossians 2:5). He tells the Philippians that they must “stand fast in one spirit” (Philippians 1:27). Clearly they were not to possess one another as an evil spirit might enter into another person’s body. Instead they were to share the same mindset, disposition, purpose, faith, and conduct.
The Holy Spirit in a Christian
So then, what about the Holy Spirit in a Christian? Paul tells us that something happens to a person when they obey the gospel. He tells the Corinthians and Ephesians that the church collectively and the believer individually becomes the “temple” or “dwelling place” of the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 3:16; 6:19; Ephesians 2:22). He says to the Corinthians, after referring to the “one flesh” relationship of marriage, “he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him” (1 Corinthians 6:17). We understand that in the marriage relationship “one flesh” refers to the intimate nature of the fleshly union in marriage. It is still two people, but they are physically united. In the same way, we must recognize some things about the “one spirit” relationship between man and God. First, it does not mean that we take on the wholeness of the Spirit of God. If so, “one spirit” would mean we become God. That is blasphemous! Second, it does not mean that by being “one spirit” with the Lord, we lose control of our own spirit. Even to those with the gift of prophecy, Paul said, “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets” (I Corinthians 14:32). Thus we must avoid, as parameters for our understanding of this work of the Holy Spirit in the Christian, any extreme which would claim that the Christian assumes Divinity or that would forfeit responsibility for their own spirit.
I. The Spirit’s Role in Spiritual Rebirth
One of the first things which the Bible addresses with respect to the Holy Spirit’s involvement in the life of a Christian has to do with spiritual rebirth. The Bible teaches that sin separates man from God (Isaiah 59:1-2). The Bible describes this as spiritual death. Just as Adam was told, “the day that you eat of it you will surely die” (Genesis 2:17), he did not die physically but he was spiritually alienated from God the moment he sinned. So it is with all of Adam’s descendents who follow his example. Whenever one, with the mental capacity and moral maturity to stand accountable before God first sins, they are separated from God and spiritually dead. This is what Paul told the Ephesians about their life (and his life) before coming to Christ, “we were dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:5). For this to change, Jesus taught that a person must be “born again.” Jesus told Nicodemus, “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5).
Birth of “Water” and the “Spirit”
Jesus mentioned two things here: “water” and “Spirit.” The common Protestant explanation of the first thing is that Jesus is referring to natural birth (cf. John 3:6). However, it was not until the time of the Reformation that this interpretation began to be used. The Scriptural evidence of a birth involving “water” which allows one entrance into the “kingdom of God” is that the Lord is speaking of baptism. Jesus commanded baptism in connection with making disciples (Matthew 28:19). Jesus connected baptism with salvation (Mark 16:16). Paul was told that baptism “washes away sins” (Acts 22:16). He then taught that through baptism one is “baptized into Christ” (Romans 6:3); “united with Christ in the likeness of His death” (Romans 6:5); and “puts on Christ” (Galatians 3:27). Peter even went so far as to say that “baptism now saves you” by the resurrection of Christ as something which is “an appeal to God for a good conscience” (I Peter 3:21). Protestants, in the face of a Roman Catholic environment which taught salvation by merit, rejected baptism’s connection with salvation altogether, concluding (mistakenly) that if it was necessary for salvation, it would make it “salvation by works.” Thus, they exchanged one extreme from another extreme.
The second element of Jesus’ statement, however, is our focus—born “of the Spirit.” Paul makes a parallel reference to John 3:6 in his epistle to Titus. He speaks of the, “washing of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit” (Titus 3:5). The blood of Jesus offers payment for sins, yet the Spirit here is said to offer “renewing.” On the day of Pentecost, when Peter was asked, “what shall we do?” (Acts 2:37) he told the people, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). It is difficult in this passage to determine if the gift is the indwelling of the Spirit (promised elsewhere) or the gift provided by the Holy Spirit. Paul tells the Romans, “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life” (Romans 6:23). On the other hand, is there any sense in which the two are one in the same?
“The Spirit Gives Life”
Jesus taught, “it is the Spirit that gives life” (John 6:63). Paul uses exactly the same words, comparing the Law of Moses and the gospel, declaring, “the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (II Corinthians 3:6). Jesus declared further:
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"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (John 7:37-39)
Here we note four things:
* One who thirsts must “come to” Jesus and “drink.”
* One who “believes” will have “rivers of living water” flowing out of their heart.
* This refers to “Holy Spirit” whom believers would “receive.”
* This could only happen after Jesus was “glorified.”
Extreme Reactions
One of our first answers them, to the question of what the Holy Spirit does for the Christian, is that the “Spirit gives life.” Here once again, the extremes of the religious world have often shaped our understanding of what this means. Men such as Luther and Calvin, in their rejection of the Catholicism of their day, focused on the idea of spiritual death. They asked the question, “how can a dead man do anything?” That was a good question. In their day there were those who actually believed that you could purchase a certificate known as an “indulgence” which could grant to the purchaser forgiveness of sins, past, present, and future! They properly recognized how utterly unscriptural such a concept was. Yet, in their reaction to this error they went to another extreme. They reasoned, if a dead man can’t do anything, then it must be all the work of God. Now certainly, when man sins, there is nothing that man can do to forgive that sin—however, there is a difference between works done in acceptance of God’s grace and works of merit.
In this extreme reaction men like Luther and Calvin interpreted truths such as “the Spirit gives life” in an extreme way as well. They concluded (mistakenly) that Adam’s sin corrupted man to such an extent that they were “incapable of doing any good and wholly inclined towards all evil” (as one creed fashioned after their teachings claimed. If this was true what would it mean if it is “the Spirit that gives life”? In their view is was the Spirit that empowered a person to enable them to overcome the corruption of Adam’s sin. However, what this actually did was eliminate any personal responsibility. Both men denied that man has freewill at all. For them, it was God alone who makes us choose; God who causes man to believe; God who gives us the power to refuse sin; and even God who causes man to sin! How blasphemous! Unfortunately, most of the religious world has been influenced by their extreme views, often whether they even realize it.
II. The Spirit’s Direction Through the Word
What does the Bible say? We notice from Jesus’ words in John 7:37-39 one who thirsts must “come to” Jesus. This is not compulsion, but choice. One who “believes” can enjoy this “living water” which is equated with the Holy Spirit living in him. This was available after Jesus was “glorified.” This shows a Divine act of grace (Jesus’ glorification on the cross paying for sin) and a Divine offer of mercy (spiritual life to one who was spiritually dead). But we also see a human response as a condition of accepting this mercy and grace—one must “come to” Jesus and “believe.” To Luther and Calvin the Spirit even made a person “come to” Jesus and “believe”—but that was not what Jesus taught. We observed earlier, that the Spirit doesn’t force anything—“the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets” (I Corinthians 14:32). In fact, Scripture does not teach that the Holy Spirit enables people to obey but rather it tells us about, “the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32).
Jesus’ Words Are “Spirit” and “Life”
How do we understand this? Jesus’ words in John 6:63 become important once again. The entire verse reads, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.” We notice here that Jesus says his words “are spirit, and they are life.” There is an inseparable relationship between what is said about the Spirit and about the message which He reveals. We see this throughout the New Testament. John tells us, “the Spirit is the truth” (I John 5:6) but Jesus tells us of God, “your word is truth” (John 17:17). Is this a contradiction? No, it is the Spirit which reveals the word and cannot be separated from it. This is why we are told that, “the sword of the Spirit” is the word of God (Ephesians 6:17). As men like Calvin saw it (and many today), the word is just a “dead letter” unless the Holy Spirit acts in addition to give it power. That is not what Scripture teaches. The Hebrew writer said it is “living and powerful” (Hebrews 4:12). How can a message be “living”? Remember what we saw earlier, that “spirit” sometimes refers to a mindset. We saw in the case of John with Elijah and Titus with Paul that they were of the “same spirit.” We saw in the case of Paul with Corinth or Colosse that he was “with them in spirit.” If the Holy Spirit is responsible for the message of the word of God, the work of the word on the heart is the Holy Spirit working.
Resisting the Holy Spirit
Consider some examples of this in Scripture. When Paul teaches the Thessalonians about practicing self-control over their bodies, he warns them, “he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit” (I Thessalonians 4:8). Stephen told the Jews, who rejected his teaching about Jesus, “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you” (Acts 7:51). How can someone resist the Holy Spirit? If Luther and Calvin were correct this makes no sense. The Jews who tried Stephen didn’t have any personal indwelling of the Spirit. They did, however, reject the message of the Holy Spirit. In so doing they resisted the Holy Spirit.
“By This We Know That He Abides in Us”
Is the same things true of believers? Let’s notice John’s words. He wrote, “Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us” (I John 3:24). Here John connects “keeping His commandments” with God abiding in a Christian. This is set parallel with “the Spirit whom He has given us” as a way to know that God “abides in us.” Is this God making us follow His commandments by the compulsion of the Spirit? No. It is being “one spirit” with God by following what the Spirit has revealed. A few verses after this John says,
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No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit(I John 4:12-13).
Here John says, if we love one another it allows God to be seen in us. Unbelievers love, but not in the manner, or with the motivation and purpose that the Christian does. The Christian imitates the example of Jesus. In this way God’s love is “perfected” in them. This very reception of the Spirit, Paul points out to the Galatians, did not come, “by the works of the law” but “by the hearing of faith” (Galatians 3:5). This echoes what he told the Romans, “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17).
Is This Salvation By Works?
Someone might say, isn’t that salvation by works? No! The blood of Christ saves. Man is not the one who reveals the message of salvation—that is by God’s mercy. We would not know how to live on our own. When we do what we are commanded does that merit salvation? No. “We are unprofitable servants, we have done what was our duty to do” (Luke 17:10). Following the revealed word of the Spirit is yielding our spirit to God’s. It is allowing God to work in us. It can transform our thinking. It can give us new purpose and meaning, but it is a choice not compulsion.
So then, we have seen that the Spirit works in one who has obeyed the gospel in an unseen way to renew our spirit giving those who are spiritually dead, renewed life. We have seen that the Spirit works in us through the word to teach us and direct us. This work directly relates to two other areas in which the Spirit within becomes important: fellowship with God, and worship.
III. “The Fellowship of the Holy Spirit”
We have seen above that in sin one is spiritually separated from God, but in Christ “the spirit gives life.” What does that do for our relationship with God? Second Corinthians 13:14 refers to, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit.” The word translated “communion” here is the Greek word koinonia which is usually translated “fellowship.” It is defined as, “joint participation.” Philippians 2:1 echoes this, referring to, “the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.” While Jesus is the one Mediator between God and man, having shed His blood to atone for man’s sins (I Timothy 2:5), the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit plays a role in granting this access to God. Paul told the Ephesians, “By Him [i.e. by Jesus] we both [i.e. both the Jew and the Gentile] have access by one Spirit [i.e. the Holy Spirit] to the Father” (Ephesians 2:18). This is a very important role! Through the Spirit the Christian is granted spiritual access “to the Father.” No longer must sin separate them from God. Christ’s blood pays the debt—the Holy Spirit grants us fellowship to God.
IV. The Spirit in Worship
This then has an important affect on the Christian’s worship. In sin, we learn, “One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination” (Proverbs 28:9). Since the blood of Christ grants one access through the Spirit, prayer is heard and worship is accepted. Jesus taught the woman at the well, “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:24). Notice, there is true worship, so by inference there can be false worship. How can we know what we should and should not do to worship God? When we follow the revelation of the Spirit through the word we are worshipping “in spirit and truth.” Here is where the real problem comes with some people’s understanding of this issue. I have heard people try to justify things that they do in worship of God which have not been authorized by the Holy Spirit in the word by saying “the Spirit has led me to do this.” That is a contradiction in terms. If it is not in the word, the Spirit cannot be leading us. Jude instructed us to, “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3).
“Worship in Spirit”
When a Christian follows the revelation of the Spirit, in their worship of God the access which the Spirit grants them to the Father allows them to be “one Spirit” with the Lord. It allows them to “worship in Spirit” (Ephesians 3:3). The Christian can “sing in the Spirit” (I Corinthians 14:15-16). They may “glorify God in the Spirit” (I Corinthians 6:20). They can “pray in the Spirit” (Ephesians 6:18; Jude 20). Modern charismatic movements have led many to imagine that this is some type of ecstatic state. A careful examination of Scripture reveals that such ecstatic behavior has more to do with pagan worship that it does with New Testament worship of God in Christ. Paul wrote, “let all things be done decently and in order” (I Corinthians 14:40). As we have previously observed, even when miraculous spiritual gifts were in operation, Paul taught, “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets” (I Corinthians 14:32). Instead of this, Paul teaches us that worship is Spirit allows the one in fellowship with God in Christ, who follows the revelation of the Spirit in Scripture the assurance that they have access to God when they worship. He teaches us this about prayer specifically. He writes,
quote:
…the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God (Romans 8:26-27).
What weakness is mentioned? The Christian doesn’t always know what to pray for. Does that mean that God will remain unaware of the Christians need? No! The “Spirit Himself makes intercession.” We have seen that Christ is the “one Mediator”—is this a contradiction of that doctrine? No! We are spiritual beings. God is Spirit. Being reconciled back to God, the searching of the heart done by the Holy Spirit allows the Father to know the needs of the heart. Is this through (as our charismatic friends say) some private prayer language? No! It takes place, “with groanings which cannot be uttered.” The Christian doesn’t need to call God on the phone, or send Him a letter—silently, in the heart, through the Spirit they have contact with God.
V. The “Seal” and “Guarantee” of the Holy Spirit.
This leads us to a few final questions regarding the Holy Spirit: what is the “seal,” “deposit,” (or “earnest”) of the Spirit? and what affect does the Holy Spirit have on a Christian’s behavior or avoidance of sin? Let’s start with Ephesians 1:13-14:
quote:
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
We notice here what we have seen repeatedly belief (or as it is here “trust”) comes from having “heard the word of truth.” Then it tells us “having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit.” What does this mean? In ancient times a “seal” was a metal or carved stone ring or stamp that was pressed into wax or clay to leave the impression of the king or official who owned it. It was a mark of ownership. It was an indication of approval. All over the Near East, the clay impressions of such seals (called bullae) have been discovered. We might think of the figure here as the Holy Spirit making an impression on the heart. We notice however, that this is not separate (or in addition to) the impression caused by “having believed.” Rather the two are simultaneous. As one allows this impression to remain on the heart, it becomes a “guarantee of of our inheritance.” Some have imagined that the figure here is that the impression of the Spirit’s seal is such that it cannot be worn away (so to speak) by a rejection of that impression. Is that what the Bible teaches?
“In Our Hearts As A Guarantee”
The same figure is used twice in Second Corinthians. Paul wrote:
quote:
He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee (II Corinthians 1:22).
Here the Christian is said to be “anointed” and “sealed” in Christ by God—who gives “the Spirit” in the heart as a “guarantee.” Later in the book he refers to this again, after talking about the wonderful time in which mortality will be “swallowed up” in life, he writes:
quote:
He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee (II Corinthians 5:5).
In none of these texts do we see the idea stated that the “seal” or the “guarantee” of the Spirit is irrevocable. It is always connected with maintaining behavior that is in harmony with the revelation of the Spirit. What then is the function of the Spirit as this “deposit” or “guarantee.”
“The Spirit Bears Witness With Our Spirit”
Paul explains it in greater detail in the book of Romans. For example, he tells them, “the Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Romans 8:16). If this earnest is something that empowers or directly leads a person, how is it that the Spirit “bears withness with our spirit”? If it is all the Spirit’s doing and man bears no responsibility “our spirit” is no factor at all. On the otherhand, if this is teaching that the Spirit, searches our spirit to determine our compliance to the revelation of the Spirit through the word, that is something different. A few verses before this passage Paul wrote:
quote:
… if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you (Romans 8:11).
Notice what we see here. There is a condition under which God will “give life to your mortal bodies.” That condition is, “if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you.” Here is the earnest and seal—if a Christian allows the direction of the Spirit through the word to leave its impression on the heart, the Spirit’s searching of the heart, bears witness to this. If the Spirit bears witness that His impression stays on the heart, this guarantees that the Spirit will grant eternal life to a person on the day of judgment.
VI. The Holy Spirit’s Work in the Behavior of a Christian.
The final issue we must consider is the affect which the Holy Spirit has on the behavior of a Christian, and how the Holy Spirit offers assistance in avoiding sin. The issue of freewill becomes a major consideration here. Paul told the Corinthians, “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord” (II Corinthians 3:18). We observed above, that any concept we frame of the Holy Spirit’s work must avoid the extreme of claiming that Christians become gods, and the other extreme of claiming that personal responsibility is removed. In this text we must ask, how is it that the Holy Spirit transforms Christians into the image of God? If this is compulsion we must ask why do Christians still sin? Is the Spirit not doing a good enough job? If instead, this transformation is affected by our choice and submission—if it becomes an issue of acceptance of the message revealed by the Holy Spirit. In that case the individual is to blame for shortcomings in his or her own life.
“By the Spirit Put to Death the Deeds of the Body”
Is their no help then offered by the Holy Spirit? Paul taught the Romans:
quote:
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God (Romans 8:13-14).
In this text we are not left to ourselves to determine what it mean to be “led by the Spirit of God.” Only a few verses above this Paul defined living “according to the flesh” or “according to the Spirit.” Notice what he said:
quote:
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit (Romans 8:5)
Here we see that being led, or living “according to the Spirit” is accomplished by “setting our minds” on the “things of the Spirit.” We are personally responsible for sin. If this is to be understood in the sense of empowerment or compulsion then it is God’s fault if we sin. That is not what the Bible teaches. “God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone” (James 1:13). We can know the “things of the Spirit” by meditating and applying the word, the “sword of the Spirit” into our lives. In so doing, just as in the Parable of the Sower, the word grows in the heart to bear fruit (Matthew 13). This is the same sentiment David expressed, “Your word I have hidden in my heart that I might not sin against You!” (Psalm 119:11). This allows the Christians to be “strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith” (Ephesians 3:16-17). We note that the manner in which this indwelling of Christ is described is “through faith.” When Christians allow faith—which comes from hearing the word of God revealed by the Spirit—to dwell in them, it is Christ dwelling in them.
The Spirit’s Transformation Into The Image of God
The same principle is true of other ways in which the Holy Spirit is said to “transform” the Christian into the image of God. We note this in some things having to do with the tongue. Paul and John both teach us some important points on this. They both teach that no one can confess Jesus coming in the flesh, or that “Jesus is Lord” except by the Spirit of God (I Corinthians 12:3; I John 4:2-3). It is clear that an unbeliever can say the words. This cannot mean that the Spirit produces the words, produces the faith, or empowers one to confess. Rather, what it is teaching is that accepting the conviction of the heart that leads one to genuinely confess Jesus is from the Holy Spirit. If this is compulsion—Calvin was right, it is not a choice nor could be resisted. If it is acceptance of the “mindset” of the Spirit it is not God’s fault if an unbeliever chooses not to confess. As a result, we can see it as a work of the Holy Spirit, when a person accepts the message of the gospel and allows that to move their heart to confession of Christ.
“Fruit of the Spirit”
We see this same principle in other types of behavior. This influence of the Holy Spirit, through acceptance and application of the word is said to lead to “joy” of the Holy Spirit (I Thessalonians 1:6); “love in the Spirit” (Colossians 1:8; cf. Romans 15:30); “comfort” of the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:31); “righteousness” and “peace” (Romans 14:17) and all the other qualities described as “fruit of the Spirit” (Galatians 5:22; Ephesians 5:9). The Christian who follows the conduct taught in the word of God, brings forth this kind of behavior. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, accomplished through the medium of the word of God applied to the human heart.
“If We Live In The Spirit, Let Us Also Walk in the Spirit”
There is clearly an aspect of the work of the Holy Spirit which is God’s part but there is also a part which is dependent upon man’s choice. When one is obedient to the gospel, the restoration of man unto God involves the Holy Spirit. Paul calls this “living in the Spirit” (Galatians 5:25). Yet Paul also shows that there is an aspect of yielding to the Spirit which is man’s choice. One must “walk in Spirit” (Galatians 5:16). Paul teaches, “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit” (Galatians 5:25). In this sense one is to “be filled with the Holy Spirit” – a command (Ephesians 5:18). We must sow to the Spirit in order to reap of the Spirit eternal life (Galatians 6:8). This is our choice and it is our responsibility. If we, after coming to Christ, reject the teaching of the Holy Spirit and live “according to the flesh” Paul tells us that we “grieve the Holy Spirit” (Ephesians 4:30). This very fact shows that the work of the Holy Spirit is not compelled upon a person, nor wholly the work of God, or else the Holy Spirit would be grieving Himself. Rather, the degree to which the Spirit dwells in a Christian is such that man’s own choice can accept or reject His influence.
____________________
There are many other points and Scriptures that we could examine. I have not, in these comments addressed the role of miraculous spiritual gifts, their purpose, and duration. However, I have tried to survey the Scriptures that address the general work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a Christian. The challenge for us all is to avoid the preconceptions of our culture, personal desires, family background, etc. and simply shape our understanding of spiritual matters based on what is revealed in Scripture. Only then can we be assured that we are following God and not our “own spirit” (Ezekiel 13:3) or the “commandments of men” (Matthew 15:9).
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Kyle,
I agree that not all christians at all times will have miraculous gifts. That is scriptural truth layed out in Corinthians.
There are still a few of us who are waiting on you to provide scriptural proof that miracles (miraculous gifts) have ceased.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Daniel,
Thanks again for continuing to study this topic. I will try to address your question very soon. Thanks.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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hittite1963, I always try to understand who I am talking to...
I read their words / thoughts and pray for understanding where they are coming from...
today I noticed you are Church of Christ...
I think this explains much more about you than you realize...
let me ask you a question.
do you think ....
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
do you think this has come to pass?
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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becauseHElives,
Yes I do believe that I Corinthians 13:10 has been fulfilled. I hope, Lord willing, to offer Daniel a complete answer to his question very soon. You will find in that explanation exactly what I believe that the Scripture teaches that the phrase "that which is perfect" refers to.
Let me ask of you that you not assume that you know what it means that I am associated with a group which identifies itself simply as a "church of Christ." I am not a member of some denomination that bears that name. Nor do I agree with all things that churches which wear that name practice and teach. It is my desire to be nothing more and nothing less than a member of the church which Jesus purchased with his blood (Acts 20:28). This is the only church which I find that Jesus built (Matthew 16:18).
Thanks for taking the time to look over this post.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
(If I hear him say one more time, "Thanks for considering, or thanks for taking time, I might sin! Well, mabee not, but I might chuckle.) ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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hittite1963,
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
verse 12 explains verse 10
that which is perfect is only available when we are face to face....
on this earth, in this flesh there is not perfection,...
there is only pressing toward that day when in death or at the return of Yahshua will there be perfection.
hittite1963, I have sympathy for those that have religion and not the Resurrection Life of Jesus/Yahshua...
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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becauseHElives
My friend, you said:
quote:
that which is perfect is only available when we are face to face....
on this earth, in this flesh there is not perfection,...
You might take a look at Exodus 33:11; Numbers 12:8; Numbers 14:14; Deuteronomy 5:4; and Deuteronomy 34:10. In these texts Moses, on earth, is said to have known the LORD "face to face." This does not mean that he saw the full glory of God. John said, "no one has seen God at any time" (John 1:18; I John 4:12). It does, however, indicate to us that he received a fullness of revelation which was unequaled at the time. I'll have more when I finish my response to Daniel.
Thanks for your study.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Kyle Pope, you are trying to convince me and others here on this board Yahshua loved the infant church more than the adult church, you are trying to convince us that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not needed today and all we need is our own human understanding of scripture….
Father I pray you help this poor man educated beyond logical thinking.
but then face to face: (when this flesh is put away)
now I know in part; (the Church is a Body made up of different members ”parts” making the whole, when we come together we see the Glory of Yahweh. If / when the parts function as one.)
but then shall I know even as also I am known. (then applies to the flesh being finished, by death or by Yahshua’s coming)
Kyle Pope, you twist the scriptures well, you are one of those Pharisees that follow your traditions over the word of Yahweh.
The saying "God is dead" came about as a result of your kind of theology.
People went to your church and because of the misrepresentation of who Yahweh is, instead of seeing the resurrected Messiah, they saw His funeral.
Those Old Testament scriptures in no way relate to the topic of the .... How Does The Holy Spirit Work in a Christian?
If I tried to use Old Testament scriptures to prove the use of musical instruments in the New testament Church you would say oh no that was Old Testament.
but that notwithstanding those Old testament scripture do not begin ti imply what you are trying to say. The Apostle Paul had seen Yahshua face to face in his life time but that was not what Paul was saying here in Corinthians...
we have a better covenant than Moses. (read Hebrews)
I hate religion, Yahshua hates religion, and The Heavenly Father hates religion...
The Church of Christ is a religion, but so is Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Assembly
of God, Church of God, Pentecost, and all other denominations.
True believers have a relationship not religion...
(just for clarification, I'm not saying there are not true believers in some denominations)
but
There is only one True Church and it knows no walls or boundaries. Those that have Truly been born Again from above find no place in this earth where they feel at home.
Kyle Pope, you want to convince people Yahweh is less today than He was in Moses day, in Elisha's day, Elijah's day, Isaiah's day, in Daniel's day, in Joseph's day, in the days of the infancy of the Church.
Kyle you want to convince people that Yahshua entrusted greater ability to an infant Body of believers than to the Bride He would one one day return for.
Kyle I truly do pity you for being trapped in the religion you are in. I pray Yahweh will set you free and show you He is the same yesterday , Today and forever.
If Yahweh does not still do miracles, why do you bother to pray....
If Yahweh is still not healing the sick through His Body on earth, He is not forgiving sins either!
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But so that you might know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sin . . . .” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
7 And the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe, and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.
The Great Commission that Yeshua gave to His disciples before ascending into Heaven:
Then Yahshua came near and said to them, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20)
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: (2 Peter 1:3)
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall 'see' God.
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Daniel,
I have finally put together an answer to your question regarding proof that miraculous spiritual gifts have ceased. Thanks for your patience. I think, however, it would be best to introduce this as a new topic. I encourage you to take a look at the new topic (which I will try to post shortly) entitled, "Prove from Scripture that Miraculous Spiritual Gifts Have Ceased." Thanks for your continued willingness to study these things and test them in the light of God's word.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, Hi-ttite1963. I printed out your above main post and read it all once thru, but I am still somewhat vague about what it all meant, altho I made some notations in the margin here and there.
There was one verse in there, something about the Spirit being the conduit for our spirit to the Father.
There are verses that say that the Spirit intercedes for us as we don't know how or for what we ought to pray, and that the Spirit searches the heart on our behalf, and so on.
So the Spirit clearly does something inside the believer after a person was saved (believed that Jesus was the Son of God and that God raised Jesus from the dead on the 3rd day; Romans 10:9-10).
And the believer also does something: the believer can choose to read the Word of God, or not.
Now, it is MY spirit of man that needs to be enlivened again, and my spirit first became enlivened, it seems, when I began to study the Word of God for the first time.
Jesus said that the words that Jesus spoke were "zoe life" or "Spirit" and so my spirit heard them and was enlivened again.
My question is, I think I understand what the Word of God does and can do, but what exactly does the Spirit of God do in a believer, according to you, especially in regard to enlivening the Spirit, or does the Spirit NOT have that particular function and instead the Spirit does something else for us and inside us.
thanks, hittite1963
eden
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, Hittite1963, becauseHElives asked you: quote:
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
do you think this has come to pass?
And hittite1963, you answered quote:
becauseHElives,
Yes I do believe that I Corinthians 13:10 has been fulfilled. I hope, Lord willing, to offer Daniel a complete answer to his question very soon. You will find in that explanation exactly what I believe that the Scripture teaches that the phrase "that which is perfect" refers to.
I have always thought from my own reading of the Bible that "that which is perfect" refers to the redemption of my mortal body into an immortal body.
The Apostle Paul wrote Corithians and the Apostle Paul LIVED around 60 A.D. or about 30 years AFTER Jesus had died, risen and ascended to heaven.
So by 60 A.D., Paul was saying that "that which is perfect" had NOT COME YET.
And, concerning the glorified body:
1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And the Apostle John, who apparently lived to be the oldest of the apostles, wrote AFTER Jesus had died, rose and ascended:
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, but it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see him as he is.
Ephesians was also written by Paul:
Ephesians 1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.
Hittite1963, you are presumably still in your natural body and still confessing your sins if and when any are committed?
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified together.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 13
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Is not all of the above, THAT which is "perfect"?
love, eden
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Eden,
Thank you so much for taking the time to print out and read over my post. I know it was very lengthy.
Regarding the sense in which "it is the Spirit that gives life"--part of the difficulty of this issue rests in the influence human doctrines have had on our perception of Biblical teaching. In the post above I made reference to human concepts about spiritual death. If, as many have taught, spiritual death means we lose all ability to obey, believe, repent, confess, and follow the instructions of God, then it would have to mean that God, through the Holy Spirit gives the one who is dead the power to do those things. If on the otherhand, the Bible teaches that spiritual death is a separation from God, then yes, it is God who sets the terms of reconciliation, but it is within man to accept those terms. As such, the Holy Spirit, through the word articulates those terms. The Holy Spirit, through the word works in the heart to change the character and behavior of a person. Then, having been reconciled to God, it is the contact provided internally by the Holy Spirit, in an unseen manner which allows that reconciliaton to exist. So long as a person allows the Holy Spirit to dwell in them by allowing God's word live and work within them (cf. I Thessalonians 2:13), they continue in that reconciled state. I believe this is what the Bible teaches.
On the issue of "that which is perfect"--I don't see any evidence from the context or the wording of this text that the issue is the glorified body. If we start in chapter 12 then go all the way to chapter 14 the issue is spiritual gifts. In 14 Paul teaches that prophecy excels tongues because it is a gift which provides information by which one is edified. Yet he says this gift is "in part." If prophecy is better than tongues because it gives information which edifies, the "perfect" would be the presence of complete information which can fully edify. I believe that is what we have in the New Testament. It is the "perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25).
Thanks for your comments. I hope we can continue to study together the things of God's word (on this or other topics).
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
Hi, Hittite1963, among other things, you said quote:
Then, having been reconciled to God, it is the contact provided internally by the Holy Spirit, in an unseen manner which allows that reconciliaton to exist. So long as a person allows the Holy Spirit to dwell in them by allowing God's word live and work within them (cf. I Thessalonians 2:13), they continue in that reconciled state. I believe this is what the Bible teaches.
When above you say, by allowing God's word live and work within them (cf. I Thessalonians 2:13), are you referring to God's word coming from the Spirit within or alongside, or are you referring to the written Word of God that comes in from the outside, when you say, by allowing God's word live and work within them (cf. I Thessalonians 2:13)?
1 Thessalonians 2
13 For this cause also do we thank God without ceasing, because, when you received the word of God which you heard of us, you received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually works also in you who believe.
So Hittite1963, when you said, quote:
...So long as a person allows the Holy Spirit to dwell in them [b]by allowing God's word live and work within them (cf. I Thessalonians 2:13)
are you speaking of the written Word of God which, as it were, ACTIVATES the Spirit of God INSIDE?
If I may ask, where did you learn all this stuff? Or, to put that another way, remembering that I am a busy person, can you tell me in brief who you are?
thank you, Hittite1963
Be blessed, everyone who participates...
eden
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Eden,
I do not believe that the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit infuses additional information into the mind of a person, separate and apart from the written word. This is where the distinction between the promises made to the apostles and prophets (cf. John 14-16; Matthew 10:20) and those made to believers in general (cf. I Timothy 4:13, I Thessalonians 2:13) becomes important. I would urge you to go back and notice some of the points above regarding the instances in which "spirit" is used of a mindset. This aspect of "setting one's mind on the things of the Spirit" is at the heart of what it means for the Spirit to dwell in a Christian.
Regarding who I am--I am simply a Christian who loves the great and merciful God who loved us and gave his Son for our sins. I humbly seek to follow His word. You are welcome to take a look at the website of the church where I preach http://www.olsenpark.com or my personal website http://kmpope.home.att.net. Thanks for your study.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, hittite1963 (sorry, I just now noticed that your cybername has a lowercase "h" as in "hittite" and not "Hittite"). You said quote:
I do not believe that the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit infuses additional information into the mind of a person, separate and apart from the written word.
Okay. Can you state in brief list form for me in a post below what you think the Holy Spirit does inside of a person? That would help me a lot.
For example, does the Holy Spirit search the spirit of man even if that man does not read the Word of God?
In list or bulleted format (so to speak) What does the Spirit of God inside or alongside a believer do WITHOUT THE written Word of God, if anything?
Thank you, lowercase hittite1963.
eden
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Eden,
I'll give it a shot. A bullet-point list is certainly an an oversimplification of a complex subject. The explanation above is much more thorough, but here we go:
- "The Spirit Gives Life" (John 6:63).
- "Access By One Spirit to the Father" (Ephesians 2:18).
- "The Spirit Himself Makes Intercession For Us" (Romans 8:26).
- "The Spirit Himself Bears Witness With Our Spirit" (Romans 8:16).
- "By the Spirit Put to Death the Deeds of the Body" (Romans 8:13).
In my understanding, the first four items are internal, unseen, and unfelt. The last items operate through the "sword of the Spirit" (Ephesians 6:17)--"the word of God which also effectually works" (I Thessalonians 2:13) in the heart of the believer to transform a person's life and behavior. I hope this helps. Take care.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, hittite1963. Okay, let's work with the verses you provided. Thanks, they were good. You said quote:
"The Spirit Gives Life" (John 6:63).
Let me ask you about this one. We also know that the written Word of God gives life. So are you also saying that the Holy Spirit gives life on the inside of us, without input from the written Word of God? Or is it a combination of the two that makes it work, they are each other's catalyst? quote:
"Access By One Spirit to the Father" (Ephesians 2:18).
Okay, I think the Spirit of God is like a Wi-Fi to the Father for us. quote:
"The Spirit Himself Makes Intercession For Us" (Romans 8:26).
Okay, that is something the Holy Spirit alone can do. quote:
"The Spirit Himself Bears Witness With Our Spirit" (Romans 8:16).
Okay, that can be done by the Spirit alone. quote:
"By the Spirit Put to Death the Deeds of the Body" (Romans 8:13).
quote:
In my understanding, the first four items are internal, unseen, and unfelt. The last items operate through the "sword of the Spirit" (Ephesians 6:17)--"the word of God which also effectually works" (I Thessalonians 2:13) in the heart of the believer to transform a person's life and behavior.
So it seems that the Holy Spirit does some independent things inside a believer?
And there are some activities which are joint endeavors by the written Word of God and the Spirit of God inside a believer?
love, eden
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on
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Eden,
You asked:
quote:
Let me ask you about this one. We also know that the written Word of God gives life. So are you also saying that the Holy Spirit gives life on the inside of us, without input from the written Word of God?
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). The gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). When we accept the message of the gospel, which has been revealed by the Holy Spirit, and are obedient to it, we receive "life." There is no separation between the Spirit and the word which it reveals. If you are asking if the Spirit operates on the heart apart from the word, I do not believe that is what Scripture teaches. Beyond this we must exercise great caution that we do not try to "whittle on God's end of the stick." All that we can know about these things is what God has revealed.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
There is a separation of the word as we think that we understand it, and what He reveals it to mean!
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