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Topic: Is Baptism Necessary For Salvation?
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Brother Paul
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Member # 7959
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Yes, and how can we know those who abise? 1 John 3:24 tells us "The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." See the mutual abiding among the saved? Therefore, let us strive (present participle - an action which continues forever) to enter in at the strait gate...we may fail on occasion or seem to fall, but through the two principles of
a) the efficacy of the merit and advocacy of Christ, and
b) through the promise of confessional forgiveness, and the cleansing restoration of this act when submitted to in a state of contrition
We are fully restored to again strive toward the mark...
The Lord bless
brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Eden
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Brother Paul wrote quote:
What do you think or say...we know if the Spirit of Christ dwell not in us we are none of His but I think likewise if we do not dwell in Him we are likewise none of His.
I agree; just because we have received the Spirit, if then we make no use of the Spirit and pay Him no attention, but continue to "lean on our own understanding" (our own 5 senses), I think it will be those "Christians" that Jesus will say to:
Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord ...
23 But then will I profess to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you who work iniquity.
How do they "work inequity"? By continuing to "lean on their own understanding" even after the Holy Spirit was in them.
Why? Because the Living Jesus in heaven desires, and indeed is waiting, to be the Head of the body of the church.
That is, we humans can only make our decisions on our the limited informatioin provided by our 5 senses. But the Living Jesus in heaven can see everything.
For this reason God gave us the Holy Spirit inside of us, because the Spirit of God understands the mind of God:
Romans 8
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
So the Spirit of God was given so that the Living Jesus in heaven can communicate with us us Christians.
Therefore, when a Christian continues to "lean on his own understanding" (i.e., he continues to use his own head) instead of letting the Living Jesus be his Head, then that Christian "never knew Jesus" who is waiting in heaven to be his Head.
Well can Jesus say,
Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord ...
23 But then will I profess to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you who work iniquity.
How did they work iniquity? All thoughts that proceeding from the 5 senses of a human fall short of the glory of God. We are altogether born in sin and what comes out of us is sin, iniquity.
The only way to avoid that is to let the Living Jesus in heaven, do what He said He would do:
Psalm 32
8 I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you shall go: I will guide you with my eye.
Isaiah 28
26 For his God does instruct him to discretion and does teach him.
Of them, Jesus can say:
John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow me.
They follow all His thoughts and ways as He guides them with HIS eye:
Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts higher than your thoughts.
The ones who say to the Lord each day, "Lord, instruct me and teach me which way I should go and guide me with your eye", those are the "sheep who hear His voice and follow Him".
All else is a work of iniquity.
So Brother Paul wrote quote:
What do you think or say...we know if the Spirit of Christ dwell not in us we are none of His but I think likewise if we do not dwell in Him we are likewise none of His.
I agree totally.
John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in Me.
John 15:7
If you abide in me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.
love, Eden
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Brother Paul
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The one Baptism that I believe is absolutely necessary is the Baptism by the Spirit into Christ. We in Him and He in us is the echad (oneness-unity) that is the fulfillment of His prayer for us from John 17:17, which is like the oneness He shared with our Father from before the foundation of the world.
Himself being the very Lord of Glory His prayer was most certainly ansered. Some Christian's theologies focus on one side or the other but it is a perfect Unity because He did it.
Here is one to ponder and maybe comment on. He is the fulness of the Godhead dwelling bodliy. He is in the Father and the Father is in Him likewise the Spirt. Therefore when He dwells in us through the indwelling Spirit, the entire Trinity dwells in us and by our being in Him through the Spirit and He being in the Father we are "in" the Trinity (not part of it of course, but immersed continually)
Just a thought for you guys to ponder and feel freew to tare it apart or confirm it in your opinion. Baptism after all is essentially an immersion as well as an identification with...
What do you think or say...we know if the Spirit of Christ dwell not in us we are none of His but I think likewise if we do not dwell in Him we are likewise none of His. The Scriptures stressing the importance pof being "in Christ" and all that means for us in terms of blessings I would think this Baptism is essential.
and oh yes I also agree water Baptism is necessary in the sense that if saved we would want to obey Christ's command and follow His example...but a bath does not make one a child of God...its a birth
Love,
Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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AMEN!
I believe baptism is an act of obedience, and our Lord said that those who love Him will obey Him.
But no way do I see water baptism's enactment of death, burial, and resurrection as equal to the atoning sacrifice of Christ. We cannot add to the finished work of the cross.
Salvation is by Grace through Faith in Christ
The work of Jesus Christ as Savior is the prominent theme in the Bible. He is the promised seed of woman who will conquer Satan (Gen. 3:15). He is the promised Servant of Yahweh who would bear the sins of the whole world (Isa. 53:4-6; Jn. 1:24). As the Savior Jesus Christ died on the cross and suffered the judgment of the sin of the whole world (I Cor. 15:3-4; II Cor. 5:19-21; I Pet. 1:18-19; I Jn. 2:2; Rev. 1:5).
The atoning substitutionary death of Jesus Christ on the cross is the absolute guarantee of the believer’s salvation (Rom. 8:34). The all-sufficient, sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ has been shed, and it is by that blood God has been propitiated (I Jn. 2:2). The divine penalty has been born by Christ (I Pet. 2:24; 3:18).
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is God’s seal upon the death of Jesus that guarantees the believer’s resurrection and eternal life (Jn. 3:16; 10:28). The resurrection of Jesus proves that His substitutionary work on the cross is infinitely perfect in its all sufficiency.
The offer of salvation is to all who will repent and believe on Jesus Christ. "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all" (1 Timothy 1:15). It is His desire that all individuals trust in Christ and be saved. "Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4). Salvation is not universal, and it is not automatic. All religions do not lead to the same place. Salvation comes only by trust in Jesus Christ. “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all” (1 Timothy 2:5-6a). “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
Only the individual who calls upon the name of Jesus will be saved (Acts 2:21). “For whoever will call upon the name of The Lord will be saved” (Rom. 10:13).
Salvation comes to us by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. “We believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus…” (Acts 15:11). “Even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” (Eph. 2:5). And then to make his point emphatically clear the apostle Paul wrote, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).
God saves us, not in virtue of our works, but in virtue of the atoning work of Jesus Christ on behalf of the sinner (II Tim. 1:9). The Bible is emphatically clear beyond any doubt that every person does not deserve or merit, and cannot win salvation. Salvation depends on the grace of God alone. It is God’s free gift to men and women all over the world. It is given in mercy out of love, and is totally underserved. Although salvation is free as the absolute gift of God, an individual receives it by faith. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8). No, faith is not a work. Faith is not something you psych yourself up to. Faith means accepting Jesus Christ at His word. “They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). Salvation is God’s free gift to you and received as you would any other gift with empty open hands. "For with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation" (Romans 10:10).
http://www.abideinchrist.com/selah/oct14.html
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Thunderz7
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Member # 31
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It is written and made abundantly clear, that John baptized with water and that the baptism Jesus would give is a higher level.
Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:26-33, Jn.3:23,
these among others in the Gospels and many more in the New Testament.
Becoming a part of the Body of Christ,
putting on Jesus,
being clothed in HIM,
is far above H2O.
What most of the "Church" practices is John's baptism.
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Carol Swenson
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Is Baptism Necessary For Salvation?
One of the most nagging questions in Christianity is whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation. The answer is a simple, "No, water baptism is not necessary for salvation." But you might ask, "If the answer is no, then why are there verses that say things like '...baptism that now saves you...' (1 Pet. 3:21) and '...Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins...' (Acts 2:38)?" These are good questions and they deserve a good answer, so we will look at these verses later. But for now, the reason baptism is not necessary for salvation is because we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8), not by faith and a ceremony (Rom. 4:1-11). You see, a religious ceremony is a set of activities or forms performed by someone. In the Bible circumcision was a ceremony where one person performed a religious rite on another person. Likewise, baptism is also a ceremony where one person performs a religious rite on another person. But, we are saved by faith alone and anything else we do, including ceremonies, will not help.
If we are saved by faith, then we are saved by faith when we believe, not when we get baptized, otherwise we are not saved by faith. Furthermore, if baptism is necessary for salvation then anyone who receives Christ on his deathbed in a hospital and who also believes Jesus is God in the flesh, who died and rose from the dead for his sins, etc., would go to hell if he doesn't get baptized before he died. This would mean that we were not justified by faith because if we were, then the person would be saved. Also, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then all babies who die go to hell since they weren't baptized. Remember, when someone says that baptism is necessary, there can be no exceptions -- otherwise it isn't necessary.
Now, in order to more thoroughly look at this issue, I need to lay a foundation of proper theology, and then I'll address some of those verses that are commonly used to support the idea that baptism is necessary for salvation.
God Works Covenantally
First, you need to understand that God works covenantally. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties. The New Testament and Old Testament are New and Old Covenants. The word "testament" comes from the Latin testamentum which means covenant. So, the Bible is a covenant document. If you do not understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign.
If you do not think that God works covenantally then look at Hebrews 13:20 which says, "Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,..." The Eternal Covenant is the covenant between the Father and the Son before the creation of the world, whereby the Father would give to the Son those whom the Father had chosen. That is why Jesus says things like, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away," (John 6:37). And, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day," (John 6:39). And, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours," (John 17:9).
If you fail to understand that God works covenantally and that He uses signs as manifestations of his covenants (rainbow, circumcision, communion, etc.) then you will not be able to understand where baptism fits in God's covenant system.
Second, you need to know what baptism is. It is a ceremony that represents an outward representation of an inward reality. For example, it represents the reality of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. That is why it is used in different ways. It is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5), the union of that person with Christ (Gal. 3:27), the cleansing of that person's sins (Acts 22:16), the identification with the one "baptized into" as when the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Cor. 10:2), and being united in one church (1 Cor. 12:13). Also, baptism is one of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace that was instituted by Jesus.
The Covenant of Grace is the covenant between God and Mankind where God promises to Mankind eternal life. It is based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the condition is faith in Jesus Christ. As the Communion Supper replaced Passover, baptism, in like manner, replaces circumcision. "They represent the same spiritual blessings that were symbolized by circumcision and Passover in the old dispensation" (Berkhoff, Lewis, Systematic Theology, 1988, p. 620). Circumcision was the initiatory rite into the Abrahamic covenant; it did not save. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties and that is exactly what the Abrahamic covenant was. God said to Abraham, "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you," (Genesis 17:7). God later instructed Abraham to circumcise not only every adult male, but also eight day old male infants as a sign of the covenant (Gen. 17:9-13). If the children were not circumcised, they were not considered to be under the promissory Abrahamic covenant. This is why Moses' wife circumcised her son and threw the foreskin at Moses' feet (Ex. 4:24-25). She knew the importance of the covenant between God and her children. But at the same time we must understand that circumcision did not guarantee salvation to all who received it. It was a rite meant only for the people of God, who were born into the family of God (who were then the Jews).
An important question here is how is it possible for an infant to be entered into a covenant with God. There could be a lot of different answers given but the point remains: it was done; infants were entered into a covenant relationship with God -- through their parents.
In the New Testament, circumcision is mentioned many times. But with respect to this topic it is specifically mentioned in Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead." In these verses, baptism and circumcision are related. Baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision because 1) there was a New Covenant in the communion supper (Luke 22:20), and 2) in circumcision there was the shedding of blood, but in baptism no blood is shed. This is because the blood of Christ has been shed and circumcision, which ultimately represented the shed blood of Christ in his covenant work of redemption, was a foreshadowing of Christ's work.
If you understand that baptism is a covenant sign, then you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12). It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration. It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3) and the work of God (John 6:28).
Third, the Bible says that it is the gospel that saves. "By this gospel you are saved..." (1 Cor. 15:2). Also, Rom. 1:16 says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile." Neither of these verses, which tell us what saves us, includes any mention of baptism.
What is the Gospel?
It is clearly the gospel that saves us, but what exactly is the gospel? That too is revealed to us in the Bible. It is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. Baptism is not mentioned here.
Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize: "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17). If baptism is necessary for salvation, then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism is not necessary for salvation.
Additionally, in Acts, Peter was preaching the gospel, people got saved, and then they were baptized. Acts 10:44-48 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days." These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers (see 1 Cor. 14:1-5). Also, unbelievers do not praise God. They cannot because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved, and they are saved before they are baptized. This simply is not an exception. It is a reality.
Let's Suppose...
Another way of making this clear is to use an illustration. Let's suppose that a person, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), believed in Jesus as his Savior (Rom. 10:9-10; Titus 2:13), and has received Christ (John 1:12) as Savior. Is that person saved? Of course he is. Let's further suppose that this person confesses his sinfulness, cries out in repentance to the Lord, and receives Jesus as Savior and then walks across the street to get baptized at a local church. In the middle of the road he gets hit by a car and is killed. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to heaven then baptism is not necessary for salvation. If he goes to hell, then trusting in Jesus, by faith, is not enough for salvation. Doesn't that go against the Scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)?
Saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is dangerous because it is saying that there is something we must do to complete salvation. That is wrong! See Gal. 2:21; 5:4.
All right, so this sounds reasonable. But still, what about those verses that seem to say that baptism is part of salvation? I will address those now, but because this subject can become quite lengthy, in fact sufficient for a book in itself, I will only address a few verses and then only briefly.
Baptism Verses
John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'"
Some say that water here means baptism, but that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism is not necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.
It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process. Jesus said in verse three that Nicodemus needed to be born "again." This meant that he had been born once -- through his mother's womb. Nicodemus responds with a statement about how he cannot enter again into his mother's womb to be born. Then Jesus says that he must be born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 6 He says that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." The context seems to be discussing the contrast between the natural and the spiritual birth. Water, therefore, could easily be interpreted there to mean the natural birth process.
I would like to add that there are scholars who agree with the position and some who do not. Some believe that the water refers to the Word of God, the Bible, and others claim it means the Holy Spirit. You decide for yourself.
Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.‘"
This verse is often used to say that baptism is part of salvation, but we know from other scriptures that it is not, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, "repent and be baptized."
Also, please notice that there is no mention of faith in Acts 2:38. If this verse is a description of what is necessary for salvation, then why is faith not mentioned? Simply saying it is implied isn't good enough. Peter is not teaching a formula for salvation, but for covenant obedience, which is why the next verse says that the promise is for their children as well.
1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
This is the only verse that says that baptism saves, but the NIV translation of the verse is unfortunate. A better translation is found in the NASB which says, "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," "corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. Baptism is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?" or "Baptism corresponds to what?" The answer is found in the previous verse, verse 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you," (NASB).
Some think that the baptism corresponds to the Ark because it was the Ark that saved them, not the floodwaters. This is a possibility, but one of the problems is that this interpretation does not seem to stand grammatically since the antecedent of Baptism is most probably in reference to the water, not the Ark.
But, water did not save Noah. This is why Peter excludes the issue of water baptism being the thing that saves us because he says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God." Peter says that it is not the application of water that saves us but a pledge of the good conscience. Therefore, baptism here most probably represents the breaking away of the old sinful life and entrance into the new life with Christ -- in the same way that the flood waters in Noah's time was the destruction of the sinful way and, once through it, known as entering into the new way. Also, Peter says that the baptism is an appeal of a good conscience before God. Notice that this is dealing with faith. It seems that Peter is defining real baptism as the act of faith.
Acts 22:16, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."
Is the washing away of sins done by baptism, the representation of the circumcised heart (Col. 2:11-12) which means you are already saved, or is it by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:14; Rom. 5:9; Eph. 1:7)? Obviously it is the blood of Jesus and the washing here refers to the calling on Jesus' name.
Rom. 6:4, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
Because the believer is so closely united to Christ it is said that the symbol of baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection. Obviously we did not die -- unless, of course, it is a figurative usage. And that is what it is here. The figure of baptism represents the reality of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. It is a covenant sign for us. Remember, a covenant sign represents the covenant. The covenant sign of baptism represents the covenant of grace which is that covenant between God and the Christian where we receive the grace of God through the person of Christ by means of his sacrifice.
Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves, but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ.
Gal. 3:27, "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
This is speaking of the believer's union with Christ. It is an identification with, a joining to, a proclamation of loyalty to, etc. In 1 Cor. 10:2 the Israelites were baptized into Moses. That means they were closely identified with him and his purpose. The same thing is meant here.
Conclusion
Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25,26; Ezk.44:7,9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).
One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?
http://www.carm.org/christianity/baptism/baptism-necessary-salvation
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