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Author
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Topic: Salvation and then Sanctification?
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi again Eden,
So do you believe that sanctification can come to someone who believes in Jesus, but is not willing to entrust their lives into His Hands and "come under" His authority?
In other words, are you saying that if a person repents and accepts Gods forgiveness through faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus that they are saved AND THEN will just automatically be sanctified?
I contend that the difference in our views is a result of the different ways that we view what it means to have faith in Jesus. Faith in Jesus to you(I think) means to believe in Him for Who He is and what He has done..........while I believe that faith in Him is all of what you believe,but I also believe that it means to entrust our lives into His hands/agreeing to "come under" His authority.
So, Eden my last question for you is......do you believe that we need to "entrust our lives into the hands of the Lord Jesus/ accepting His divine authority" as a condition for our salvation? or do you believe that "entrusting our lives into the hands of the Lord Jesus/accepting His divine authority" just automatically(by divine compulsion) happens after someone accepts Gods forgiveness for their sin?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
hi, oneinchrist, you wrote quote:
Hi Eden,
After reading your response to my post it seems to me that you do not believe that it is matters whether or not we even mention "sanctification" in our witness to the non-believer. The main reason why I disagree with that position is because I believe that we are only giving out half of the gospel by only preaching on "forgiveness of sin".
When a person is preaching over a long period of time to another person, usually a lot more gets mentioned besides "forgiveness of sin". We usually end up mentioning all the wonderful things that will end up happening when one repents and is forgiven, and that usually includes that Jesus's sanctification will be imputed to us.
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.
Jesus is our complete substitute.
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Eden,
After reading your response to my post it seems to me that you do not believe that it is matters whether or not we even mention "sanctification" in our witness to the non-believer. The main reason why I disagree with that position is because I believe that we are only giving out half of the gospel by only preaching on "forgiveness of sin".
Acts 26 vs.18
'to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light(repentance), and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive FORGIVENESS OF SIN and an inheritance among those who are SANCTIFIED by faith in Me.
I do agree with you on your point that we cannot force our will on others, but that they must become convinced in their own hearts of the love and truth of God in Jesus.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
oneinchrist wrote quote:
Now what would have happened if I would have told my step-son......just say a prayer to ask for forgiveness and then you will be saved?
I think that whether that prayer would be answered with salvation would depend on whether your stepson "means it with his heart" or whether your stepson would "say it just because you directed him to say it".
In other words, in order for that prayer to be effective for your stepson, your stepson would have to first SEE FOR HIMSELF that he is a sinner and that Jesus died in his place. If your stepson TRULY BELIEVED THAT, and then said the prayer asking Jesus for forgiveness, then your stepson would RECEIVE forgiveness and be saved.
oneinchrist, to repeat what you said quote:
Now what would have happened if I would have told my step-son......just say a prayer to ask for forgiveness and then you will be saved?
If you told him to pray to ask for forgiveness because THEN HE WOULD BE SAVED, then YOU would be the one who was wrong, because you DIRECTED HIM the wrong way.
Unless your stepson first sees and believes personally that he is a sinner and that Jesus died in his place, then NO AMOUNT of prayers would cause him to receive salvation. The prayer itself means nothing until he sees HIMSELF that he is a sinner in need of salvation.
love, Eden
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MentorsRiddle
Advanced Member
Member # 2108
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posted
Oneinchrist
quote:
I have been witnessing to my step-son for a while now trying to explain to him the call to sanctification as part of our call to salvation. His answer back to me is that he is not ready to be a disciple , and that he does not want to change(he is apparently content the way things are). I told him that a reluctance to allow God to change us inwardly is equivalent to telling God that we know better than him and that we dont trust His good judgement.
I couldn’t agree more with this statement, Daniel.
Before I was a Christian, I was reluctant to change too – or allow God to change me.
That is the sin nature working within us.
If I were to look at who I was before sanctification I don’t think I could recognize myself.
God has waged the war within my heart for years now and has come out victorious.
God has changed me from the inside out.
I am happier now than I have ever been and I know it is because of God’s grace.
Your step-son is going to have to come to terms with what God wants in his life before he can be saved.
But, God call all whom who will come freely – who is guided by their own hearts desire for him.
If a man should love the flesh of the world over the spirit of God then that man’s heart be of no service to him.
But if a man should love God and his spirit with all of his heart, then so much more will his joy be raised above the world.
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
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posted
Interesting post, and I sense a bit of tension, but both elements are involved not either one alone, and I believe that was what Carol was trying to add for the edification of those who would read the post. Even though this was not what you were saying Daniel, some may feel (and that is how they would recieve this false impression) that you were saying one has to DO all sorts of changing in order to be saved (which you were not saying) and Carol, it appears, was just indicating the necessity and role of the Holy Spirit in the process of sanctification which cannot occur until after one HAS been regenerated (albeit still infantile in ones spiritual maturity...which as the testimony of your own life clearly witnesses).
So I hope this has helped. For clearly we are saved (regenerated) by God, not of ourselves (a point I am sure you both agree with). Then surely salvation (as in the process of sanctification) becomes more apparent over time. Which ultimately (if sealed by the Spirit until the day of redemption) is made sure upon His return, when we appear with Him, and are like Him, now knowing even as we are fully known (in resurrected glorified bodies like His).
Most of the salvation passages which speak of our deliverance from/to and so on are in the aorist tense in the Greek...this indicates a completed action the effect of which continues.
Once we "are no longer our own" we the Lord's to do with as He pleases (despite any effort on our part). As new born babies our Parent is 100% responsible for how we are cared for and taught for about the first 7 or 8 years and even then our personal responsibility grows with our Maturity.
So yes, we are responsible for obeying our Parent and yeilding to their love motivated authority. And yes we should put away things that are contrary ro our own good. But I have to say, once when I was a baby Christian I could not seem to stop drinking (not that I was a drunk but I felt uncomfortable with it but still enjoyed it) but the after all my failed efforts the Lord showed me what He had been about. I thought repentance from alcahol was what the Lord wanted, but He was working all along on my tongue. I noticed in retrospect over the years this same pattern in myself and other. They or I think this or that must go but the Lord was working elsewhere and my ignoring that was in fact working against His will. Sometimes because I was still focused on these outwatd changes (do not forget, even an atheist can make these changes) I missed the desire of the Lord for my life and had to repeat the trials and lessons over and over till He got my attention.
God sanctifies us faith to faith, glory to glory, and only He knows where you or I or your son or brother in law or neighbor need growth to prepare the foundation upon which He will build the House He requires for His good pleasure and purpose that we are not always privy too.
So therefore be at peace...share the word with this person and pray...if they are the Lord's He will bring them about in due season...some fruit takes a long time to grow
The Lord bless and thank you for this most excellent subject. I pray the Lord will inspire more to continue the dialogue as we all grow by these important kind of discussions.
In Christ
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Thank you Carol for the clarification. I know that one stand-alone passage or statement can be easily misinterpreted, especially without considering the context(surrounding text).
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
They might get that impression if they did not read the rest of what I've posted (scroll up) or if they don't understand what regeneration is. There is no new birth (regeneration) without repentance and faith in Christ Jesus.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Carol,
You stated in your post above......
"Practically speaking, we have no more to do with our second birth than with our first birth"
We did not do anything to be brought into this world physically, but we are called to REPENT and TURN TO JESUS for forgiveness and santification(to be born-again spiritually)
I think some may get the impression by your above statement that we do not have to do anything at all to be born from above, but to just hope that we are one of the "lucky" ones.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
We are “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13). It was of His own will he begat us (Jas. 1:18): Our regeneration is a creative act on the part of God, not a reforming process on the part of man. It is not brought about by natural descent, for all we get from that is “flesh.” It is not by natural choice, for the human will is impotent. Nor is it by self-effort, or any human generative principle. Nor is it by the blood of any ceremonial sacrifices. It is not by pedigree or natural generation. It is altogether and absolutely the work of God. Practically speaking, we have no more to do with our second birth, than we had to do with our first birth.
The Holy Spirit is the Divine Agent in our regeneration. For this reason it is called the ‘‘renewing of the Holy Ghost’’ (Tit. 3:5). We are “born of the Spirit” (John 3:5).
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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byfaith
Advanced Member
Member # 8061
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for SALVATION THROUGH SANCTIFICATION BY THE SPIRIT AND BELIEF IN THE TRUTH.
Its not salvation and then sanctification, its salvation through sanctification.
This is the reason that it is imperative that we do not water down the call to salvation. The call to salvation is also a call to sanctification............We are called to repent and turn to Jesus for forgiveness of sin AND SANCTIFICATION by His spirit. So despite a common belief that sanctification is "icing on the cake", or "just for rewards", I think that scriptures teach to the contrary.
I have been witnessing to my step-son for a while now trying to explain to him the call to sanctification as part of our call to salvation. His answer back to me is that he is not ready to be a disciple , and that he does not want to change(he is apparently content the way things are). I told him that a reluctance to allow God to change us inwardly is equivalent to telling God that we know better than him and that we dont trust His good judgement.
A true conversion does not come as easily as some may be lead to believe. Many are afraid to accept what God would have for them. The truth is that God will not transform anyone who is not willing to be changed by Him. Now what would have happened if I would have told my step-son......just say a prayer to ask for forgiveness and then you will be saved? Then I would never have discovered the STRONGHOLD. He needs me to be patient with him to help nuture him into a preparedness of heart that is not afraid of what it means to be changed by the spirit of God.
Sanctification = Jesus making us fit for the Kingdom ...........absolutely indispensible!
With love in Christ, Daniel
Excellent material!
Posts: 160 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2010
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Salvation is not a single event in and of itself.
Salvation is a treasury of miracles that includes repentance, faith, regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification, and prayer.
It would not be possible to put sanctification before salvation because it is a part of salvation.
When we say someone has been saved, we mean he has been regenerated, born again.
And just as a new-born child cannot make himself not grow, so a born again Christian cannot make himself not grow in holiness, sanctification. If he does not grow, he simply was not born in the first place.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for SALVATION THROUGH SANCTIFICATION BY THE SPIRIT AND BELIEF IN THE TRUTH.
Its not salvation and then sanctification, its salvation through sanctification.
This is the reason that it is imperative that we do not water down the call to salvation. The call to salvation is also a call to sanctification............We are called to repent and turn to Jesus for forgiveness of sin AND SANCTIFICATION by His spirit. So despite a common belief that sanctification is "icing on the cake", or "just for rewards", I think that scriptures teach to the contrary.
I have been witnessing to my step-son for a while now trying to explain to him the call to sanctification as part of our call to salvation. His answer back to me is that he is not ready to be a disciple , and that he does not want to change(he is apparently content the way things are). I told him that a reluctance to allow God to change us inwardly is equivalent to telling God that we know better than him and that we dont trust His good judgement.
A true conversion does not come as easily as some may be lead to believe. Many are afraid to accept what God would have for them. The truth is that God will not transform anyone who is not willing to be changed by Him. Now what would have happened if I would have told my step-son......just say a prayer to ask for forgiveness and then you will be saved? Then I would never have discovered the STRONGHOLD. He needs me to be patient with him to help nuture him into a preparedness of heart that is not afraid of what it means to be changed by the spirit of God.
Sanctification = Jesus making us fit for the Kingdom ...........absolutely indispensible!
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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