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Topic: Spiritual Death
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
The spirit of man, as an instrument, is still inside of man. It is just that after Adam sinned and was driven from the garden, that Adam (the soul) no longer had access to the Spirit of God, and as a result, Adam's spirit of man was not being "quickened" by the divine life of God.
It's much like an alternator and a battery in a car. If the alternator (the Spirit of God) is not recharging the battery, the battery is still there but it's so low on energy that we say "the battery is dead".
The battery is not "dead" in the sense that the battery will never function again, no, all the battery needs is to be reconnected to a functioning alternator and the battery becomes "alive" and "charged" again.
It's the same with the spirit of man, it's still there as an instrument in unsaved people, but it's "dead" in the sense that it has not been "charged" or "quickened" or "made alive" by the Spirit of God.
In us saved people, we have access to the Holy Spirit again and our spirit of man is "quickened" and "made alive" again.
love, Eden
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Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
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posted
John sorry but perhaps you misunderstood my position.
Jesus tells us, "I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." (John 8:51) Hmmm! What is this death Jesus is directing us away from?
Surely not physical death (even those of us who keep His word see that)
So then, what I said was, that spirits never cease to exist, because death is not the cessation of existence. Because spirits sold out to sin wihtout the benefit of Christs blood do not cease to exist does not mean they do not die (in the spiritual sense of the term). They do! God is not the author of confusion and not a man that He should lie. Now we know He makes it clear we all will continue to live, but existence in Gehenna is not living...it is eternal death (separation from God) as opposed to eternal life (in fellowship with God). First read this mere smattering of scriptures abd then I will conclude:
"Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood." (Ezek 3:20)
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die." (Ezek 18:24)
"If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die." (Ezek 18:26)
"If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done." (Ezek 33:13)
"If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it." (Ezek 33:18)
We see a similar thing referred to by Paul:
"For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Rom 8:13)
"Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?" (Rom 6:16)
James says exactly the same thing...
"My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover over a multitude of sins." (James 5:19,20)
These passages are clearly not referring to physical death, for even the righteous endure that, nor to an end of existence, but they are referred to as "death.".
They are certainly referring to what is called spiritual death, which once again does not mean they end or cease to exist...Biblically this death is not an end but a beginning of a fearfully dreaded state of eternal existence which is mutually exclusive to eternal life.
I hope this has clarified what I was trying to say.
"Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death." (Rev 2:10,11)
So finally since the body is already dead what dies here? And what does that death mean? In other words, in your opinion, what does it mean "to die" when speaking of the second death...? It may be we ARE saying the same thing only expressing it differently...help me out here...and of course even if we disagree you will always be my brother...I love you
In His Name,
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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John Hale
unregistered
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posted
You yourself, Carol, did a wonderful job pointing this out about water baptism not being necessary for salvation.
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John Hale
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Too many doctrines are built on bad hermeneutics...
Like the old country preacher that took the KJV
1 Thessalonians 4:1515 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
and preached on how we can't stop this from happening when the old KJ "prevent" means before advent...
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John Hale
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posted
Paul makes my case. Spirits do not die.
And Ephesians 2 I already answered that it is a metaphor / an exaggeration to make a point about a fate worse than death...
We were dead in sin... zombies? corpses? without spirits? no.
We use this kind of language all the time.
When Phil says he can't pay us the rent on time we say what? "You're killing me, Phil!"
Good hermeneutics is to know by the whole of scripture when the Bible is making a literal point or a point through a manner of speaking like hyperbole parable etc.
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
Your input counts for a lot Paul. Your statement struck me as powerful. I'm sure there's just a miscommunication between John and me.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
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posted
Not that it counts for much in this discussion but I have to go with Carol on this one. Death is not a matter of extinction or annihilation in the Bible, for all spirit beings continue to exist...the question is where shall they exist...in His presence where there is fulness of joy or in Gehenna where He is not...the Psalmist is referring to sheol not gehenna. The Lord made gehenna to be a place where His presence is not felt and none of the provisions He knows human souls require are available...
as for "Again... who were on the pathway to death in sin... The spirit in us is not listed as dead... and if so then the animals have a superiority to us according to Ecclesiastes because they still have a spirit until death..."
You are mistaken as to what is being talked about here...nowhere in the Scriptures are animals said to have ruah (spirits)...some are souls (nephesh) and have the vital principle at work in them (neshamah), i.e., the breath of life, but they are never ruah (spirits)...sorry John, that is just the fact...
I get the impression you think of death as the end of something as well, but think of it, before coming to Christ we were dead in our trasspasses and sins...we were dead...yet still walking and talking...then what were we? We were spiritually separated from God, that is what we were, and this is referred to as being dead in more than one place...physically we were still alive and neshamah still coursed though us human nepheshes (pardon the invention of the word, but you get my point)
but we were spiritually dead (we still had spirits but the quality of existence of that spirit was one of separation from God...by our own choosing...the Holy Spirit through the word refers to that as "dead"). How this definition of spiritual death is not clear unto you I cannot get... unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying and if I am I apologize...but you keep re-emphasizing the only real death as the physical but that is not the biblical definition of death or else 100's of scriptures become merely analogous or metaphor or something...
All spirits shall continue to exist, I am sure Carol agrees...those who have eternal life will be with Him (the renewed soul will be reunited with the rising of our glorified body)those who do not have eternal life, continue to exist in a state of eternal separation from God and all He provides (spiritual death)having nothing to do with Him and He no more to do with them, because they have vehemently rejected Him and all He offers and chose to be there own lord (Genesis 3:5)...well in Gehenna they are their own lords...each one a lord of one...there own creator and powerlessly destinined to be their own provider...there is no light there because that was of God...not a drop of water (though they continue to thirst), no food, no breezes to cool them, no fellowship, no touch, because all that was of the God they ultimately rejected...yet there never is extinction, they doi not cease to be, and worst of all they will know that they chose to be there...they rejected there only way out, Jesus Christ. They are spiritually dead. Consciously aware souls...tormented by the reality they preferred...existence free from that pesky God who tried to tell them what to do! Now each is lord for themselves...let them create fellowship, sources of joy, remission of sin and its effects, water, food, others to lord it over. But alas they cannot...and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth in this place of outer darkness, billions of lords of one forever lord over none...and they can never and never do cease to exist in that state...horrifying is it not?
The Lord bless us all with His mercy and grace and give us unction to be used in His service of savinf as many souls as we can. Therefore share the gospel...it is the power of God unto salvation.
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
I am surprised to find that you have difficulty accepting the concept of spiritual death since this is clearly stated in Scripture. Paul's reference to it is explicit (Ephesians 2:1, 5); and Jesus refers to it using different words, namely the necessity for a man to be 'born again' (John 3:3-7) as also did Paul (Titus 3:5). Although the phrase 'spiritual death' does not appear in Scripture, this does not invalidate the concept any more than does the absence from Scripture of a word such as 'trinity' rule out the truth of the latter's meaning. Just as the Bible gives no formal definition of physical death, this having to be inferred, so there is none for spiritual death. From statements in Scripture alluding to spiritual death we know that it means a state of disunion between the Creator and individual created spirit beings. Spiritual death does not require annihilation of the spirit concerned. Thus Satan in Biblical terms is spiritually dead but continues to exist.
A lot of people get confused in scripture because they don’t understand the difference between spiritual death, and physical death. Both Christians and non-Christians alike die in the flesh, but true believers never die spiritually. Instead, they have eternal life in Christ, “This (his body) is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world” (John 6.50-51 KJV bible). We know that everyone dies in the flesh regardless of whether they follow Christ or not. So then what does Jesus mean that the one partaking of his flesh will live forever? Clearly, he is not speaking of physical life and death, but rather spiritual life and death.
The world tends to think of life and death in material terms, as either a continuation or cessation of something. However, in the bible, the meaning of life and death is not as straightforward. Life and death are often used as abstract concepts to describe an entities’ spiritual state of being. A state of life implies peace, vitality, and light on a spiritual level. In contrast, a state of death implies darkness, delusion, and imprisonment on a spiritual level.
These states of life and death, are the result of an individual's closeness to, or estrangement from, the Lord. God is the source of all life, and we are able to approach him through Christ. In Jesus, we are spiritually sustained to dwell in a place of light, vitality, hope, and peace, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14.6 KJV bible). Through Christ we have freedom from the bondage of sin, so that we can share in his victory over the power of death, "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" (1st John 5.12 KJV bible). When a believer dies, their spirit continues on in this relationship, and being cleansed from all iniquity they are received into heaven. In heaven, they can rest with the Lord in a state of life, awaiting the time when they will return with him to earth.
This state of life, is the eternal life that Christ promises exclusively to those believing in him, “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand” (John 10.28 KJV bible). Those who abide in him will never see spiritual death, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death” (John 8.51 KJV bible). So after they have fulfilled their life in the flesh, they pass on to a continuing state of life with the righteous in heaven.
In contrast, a state of death implies a disconnection from God and a captivity to sin. This imprisonment of death and sin brings about (to a varying degree) pain, anger, hostility, despair, hopelessness, fear, and even torment. It is the immediate afterlife of all souls that do not receive Christ before they die. Upon death they descend into Sheol. "Her house is the way to hell [Sheol], going down to the chambers of death (Proverbs 7.27 KJV bible). Death has gained authority over them through sin.
Death feeds upon its captives like a maggot, and ruins them as a moth ruins wool, “Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings. For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation” (Isaiah 51.7-8 KJV bible). Jesus warns his adversaries that this is their fate, because to reject him is to reject the path of life, “Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come…I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins” (John 8.21,24 KJV bible). Jesus would return to his Father in heaven, but those rejecting him would be rejected by the Father in heaven. They would all die under the authority of sin and death, because only those who keep the testimony of Christ are worthy to be received by the Father when they die.
So every person will walk either one of two paths; a narrow way leading to life, or the wide path leading to destruction, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live” (Romans 8.13 KJV bible), “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it” (Matthew 7.14 KJV bible). Ezekiel describes to his people the consequences of these two spiritual paths, one of life, and the other of death, “When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby” (Ezekiel 33.18-19 KJV bible). The narrow path of faith and righteousness leads to a state of life in heaven, but the path of the world leads to a state of death in Sheol, then the lake of fire.
Christ controls the keys of death and life:
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
(Revelation 1:17-18 NASB).
(cupofwrath.com)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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John Hale
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posted
I am not unable to continue to go point for point on this topic. Only unwilling. My general statements are biblically based.
Actual death is only of the body. Separation takes place at the moment of death (and that of the spirit from the body).
The soul and the spirit are not as interchangeable as you say.
I did note you cited the Old Testament Hebrew references to denote only two sides to our make up, and I was going to let it pass. Not wanting to get into a NT versus OT thing here and having to defend the authenticity of the NT (which is where this sort of thing ends up)...
But hoping we both hold scripture in high enough esteem as to avoid this argument that the NT is just as much scripture as the OT and every word in the canon we have is scripture...
It is not good hermeneutics to go to an earlier portion of progressive revelation to define what is clearly expanded upon later in the progression of God's revelation. At the very basics of that kind of argument it is to revert back to the 10 commandments to defuse the 613 commandments of the Mosaic Law... to revert to the Noachian Covenant to refute the Abrahamic... and so on.
The fullness of time for the Messiah was when the Roman roads were built and the Greek language of commerce throughout the known civilized world must not be underestimated. God's intention was to take this universal language of secular koine Greek to expound and disperse his Word (both written and living).
Deuteronomy 6:5
5 “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
With the understanding that might is effort / intent...
Matthew 22:37
37 And He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
heart = ?
soul = ?
mind = ?
bear with me please...
Mark 12:30
30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
heart...
soul...
mind...
strength (might)...
Well, let's see what the physician has to say...
Luke 10:27
27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”
heart...
soul...
strength...
mind...
And Paul the expert in OT theology points out the distinction of knowledge and will between the mind of man and the spirit of man...
1 Corinthians 2:11
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 14:13-17
13 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?
17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified.
heart = ?
soul = ?
mind = ?
strength (might) =?
???
The point being that the OT broke ground on the subject and the NT completed the subject. So we cannot use the prior revelation to disprove the final revelation.
What you claim is interchangeable is rather that which has shared traits one with the other but the Bible distinguishes between two spirit and soul.
Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Carol I am not being malicious or trying to win a battle here. I am simply trying to get to the truth. The word of God IS truth (John 17:17) and I humbly bow to the way the Truth and the life (John 14:6).
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John Hale
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Death takes place at the separation of the spirit from the body. But actual death is still only of the body.
The Bible teaches that the body comes from dust and returns to dust. And while the universe is a closed system (nothing new added nothing old lost only rearranging of molecules) it is the spirit that gives life.
Life as defined as individuality and personhood unique to man and animals as opposed to say plants or various organisms or ecosystems... I mean we can get into the nitty gritty if we want...
...but aside from some parabolic metaphors (which have debatable application to this argument at best, as I have shown previously) only abstract reason or (sorry) opinion can be resorted to in order to support your claims.
There is no spiritual death in the Bible. Separation of the spirit is the removal of life from the physical (the body) causing the death of the body... and that is likened unto what happens when the spirit of men and angels are "separated" from God...
...regarding the passages that indicate it is not so much a locale separation since God is everywhere as an imprisonment. A confinement.
Psalm 139:7-12
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night,”
12 Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Soul and spirit are used interchangeably in the scriptures.
Death is never defined as extinction, annihilation, non-existence or unconsciousness.
Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things.
Death as "non-existence" is a member of "Domino Theology" (Refute one element & refute the whole system!)
The question of death being an extinction was considered and rejected by virtually all early church fathers, as this quote from 177 AD proves:
"Hereafter, that the Judgment Passed Upon Him May Be Just. For either death is the entire extinction of life, the soul being dissolved and corrupted along with the body, or the soul remains by itself, incapable of dissolution, of dispersion, of corruption, whilst the body is corrupted and dissolved, retaining no longer any remembrance of past actions, nor sense of what it experienced in connection with the soul." (Athenagoras, Chapter 20: Man Must Be Possessed Both of a Body and Soul)
Death means separation between two things:
Physical death Eccl 12:7 body & soul
spiritual death Isa 59:1-2 man & God
second death Rev 21:8; 22:14-15 man & God
dead to sin Rom 6:2,11; Heb 7:26 Christians & Sin
dead to law Rom 7:4 Christians & law
Physical Death
The separation of the body and soul/spirit
Eccl 12;7 "the dust will return to the earth as it was," "and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
Gen 25:17 "and he breathed his last and died," "and was gathered to his people."
Jas 2:26 "the body is dead" "separated from the spirit"
(note: here we have the precise equation for the definition of physical death spelled right out clearly in the Greek: "the body DIES when separated from the soul")
Spiritual Death
The separation of the man from God
Isa 59:2a your sins have made a separation between you and your God
Isa 59:2b And your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He does not hear
Physical and spiritual death in the Bible
Death always denotes a separation between two things.
Gen 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die (spiritually).
Adam and eve died spiritually the same day they ate the fruit, being literally separated from the presence of God in the garden by being banished from the garden. Adam died spiritually the very day he disobeyed God.
1 Kings 2:42 "Did I not make you swear by the Lord and solemnly warn you, saying, ‘You will know for certain that on the day you depart and go anywhere, you shall surely die’ (physically)?
It is falsely argued that the word die in Gen 2:17 means, "dying you shall die" indicating that Adam would merely "begin to die" the day he disobeyed God. Problem is that this is not what the word means, for the identical phrase is used here in 1 Kings 2:42. Shimei died physically the very day he disobeyed Solomon.
Lk 15:24,32 "for this son of mine was (spiritually) dead, and has come to (spiritual) life again; he was (spiritually) lost, and has been (spiritually) found." "for this brother of yours was (spiritually) dead and has begun to live (spiritually), and was lost (spiritually) and has been found. (spiritually)"
Some people simply cannot make sense of this verse. They cannot explain, with their definition of death, how the prodigal son could "be dead" and "come to life" or "begin to live". Further in the parable is the graphic fact that the son was literally physically separated from his father.
Matthew 8:2 But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me; and allow the (spiritually) dead to bury their own (physically) dead."
Jn 6:58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate (physical bread), and died (physically), he who eats this (spiritual) bread shall live (spiritually) forever."
The only way Christians live forever is spiritually, by not being separated from God ever!
Jn 5:24 he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal (spiritual) life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of (spiritual) death into (spiritual) life.
Notice the present possession of eternal life.
Jn 10:28 and I give eternal (spiritual) life to them, and they shall never perish (spiritually)
Again, present possession of eternal life coupled with the statement that Christians will never perish!
Jn 11:25 "I am the resurrection and the (spiritual) life; he who believes in Me shall live (spiritually) even if he dies (physically), and everyone who lives (physically) and believes in Me shall never die (spiritually). Do you believe this?"
Notice the plain statement that if we die physically, Christians continue to live spiritually forever in the presence of God. Sounds very similar to what Paul said in Phil 1:19.
Rom 6:2,11 "How shall we who (spiritually) died to sin still live in it?" … "Even so consider yourselves to be (separated) dead to sin, but alive (united) to God in Christ Jesus."
Christians are dead or separated from sin. Sin still exists! Sin is not annihilated! While we live physically in the flesh, we are to be separated from sin and united with God!
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is (spiritual) death, but the free gift of God is eternal (union) life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
One of the most basic concepts in the Bible. Sin brings about a separation between God and man, just as the O.T. parallel to this verse states in Isa 59:1-2.
Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die (separated) to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined (spiritually alive) to another. [Christ]
This verse shows "die" and the corresponding word "joined" further proving the fact that death is a separation from the law and life is being joined to God!
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for separated (Gr: choris) from the Law sin is dead.
The exact equation we are looking for: sin is dead = separation from the law. It is directly in the Greek text! Nothing to infer!
Rom 7:9-11 And I was once (spiritually) alive separated from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died (spiritually); 10 and this commandment, which was to result in (spiritual) life, proved to result in (spiritual) death for me; 11 for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me(spiritually).
Rom 8:35 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?"
Here spiritual life is explained in terms of being united and unseparated from Christ!
Gal 2:19 For through the Law I died (separated) to the Law, that I might live (united) to God.
The Law still existed! It was not annihilated!
2 Cor 6:17 "Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate," says the Lord. "And do not touch what is unclean; And I will welcome you."
Notice that Christians are to be "dead to sin" or as this verse says, separate from sinners.
Eph 2:1,5 "And you were (spiritually) dead in your trespasses and sins" … "even when we were (spiritually) dead in our transgressions, made us (spiritually) alive together with Christ"
Notice that "alive together with Christ" in v5 is contrasted with "separated from Christ" in v12. This proves the definitions of spiritual death and spiritual life as being a separation vs. union with God.
Eph 2:12-13 remember that you [Gentiles] were at that time [before Christ came] separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
This fantastic verse graphically illustrates that spiritual death is a separation and that spiritual life is a removal of that separation.
The exact concept of spiritual death = separation from Christ is in the Greek.
Phil 1:21-23 For to me, to live (physically) is Christ, and to die (physically) is gain. But if I am to live (physically) on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart (physically) and be with Christ, for that is very much better.
How ridiculous that Paul would be choosing between living physically for 40 more years or annihilation for 2000 years and counting! Paul’s choice was between 40 more years on earth, or dying and immediately being in the literal presence of Christ! Notice the Greek word for "depart" means "loose, untie". Paul was saying his soul would be separated from the body and go into the presence of Christ!
Col 2:13 And when you were (spiritually) dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you (spiritually) alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.
Powerful verse! Notice that spiritually alive = "together with" God … separation caused by sin is removed!
Heb 7:26 For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens.
Spiritual life is separated from sinners!
Heb 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without (Greek lit: separated "choris") sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
The word "without" is the Greek word for "separated" (Gr: choris). Christians are separated from sin, or spiritually alive!
2 Peter 1:13-14 And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.
The whole terminology of "laying aside" as being equivalent to when Peter dies, is a powerful refutation that death is a cessation of all existence. This laying aside, proves the dichotomous (2 part) nature of man.
Ezek 18:4,20 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die."
This verse is speaking about spiritual death, not physical death. Just like Rom 6:23. The wages of sin is spiritual death, or separation from God.
Hell is eternal separation from God.
Rev 20:14-15 This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 22:14-15 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."
Notice the graphic illustration. Heaven is inside the city where the presence of God is. Hell, the lake of fire, is "outside the city", or a banishment from God’s presence. This exactly fits the definition of spiritual death being separation from God.
2 Thess 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
When we couple with this the concept of "second death" we have a perfect illustration. Hell is not annihilation, but an existence "away from God’s presence".
Again, death is always a separation.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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John Hale
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...conclusion
Luke 15:32
32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”
What Paul was teaching was that which is likened to death (or worse) in rabbinic ironic fashion. A family member of mine would say her daughter was dead to her when she left to pursue a career rather than stay in Podunk, Texas with her...
It's a parabolic exaggeration to make a point (which in this case ends up worse than the exaggeration).
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To illustrate, think of Jesus’ raising of Lazarus in John 11. The physically dead Lazarus could do nothing for himself. He was unresponsive to all stimuli, oblivious to all life around him, beyond all help or hope—except for the help of Christ who is “the Resurrection and the Life” (John 11:25). At Christ’s call, Lazarus was filled with life, and he responded accordingly. In the same way, we were spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves, powerless to perceive the life of God—until Jesus called us to Himself. He “quickened” us; “not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5).
I don't know what works theology has to do with this discussion... neither of us believes we can earn our salvation as evidenced by the Law of Moses. That Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly states that even our faith is an initiation from God...
But it does not apply here. The temporary raisings from the dead were signs to authenticate the message or the messenger. And Lazarus and Jairus' daughter and the widow's son etc etc were all dead in the flesh and not the spirit.
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The book of Revelation speaks of a “second death,” which is a final (and eternal) separation from God. Only those who have never experienced new life in Christ will partake of the second death (Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8).
This is after the general resurrection so that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:5-11). Then the condemned will be cast into the lake of fire where their bodies and souls will be destroyed and their spirit will live on (dying a second time the same way they died the first time their spirit separating from their bodies).
Matthew 10:28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Isaiah 66:24
24 “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Malachi 4:1-3
1 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.
2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall.
3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the LORD Almighty.
Question... do you know of any scripture that says the devil or his angels die?
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John Hale
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...continued
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When Jesus was hanging on the cross, He paid the price for us by dying on our behalf. Even though He is God, He still had to suffer the agony of a temporary separation from the Father due to the sin of the world He was carrying on the cross. After three hours of supernatural darkness, He cried, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:33-34).
This spiritual separation from the Father was the result of the Son’s taking our sins upon Himself. That’s the impact of sin. Sin is the exact opposite of God, and God had to turn away from His own Son at that point in time.
We agree that the Father and the Spirit (which stands to reason) turned away from Jesus as he was made the sin offering on the cross.
Romans 8:3
3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
But he did so only in his flesh. His Spirit did not die on the cross... Jesus did not die spiritually but physically.
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A man without Christ is spiritually dead. Paul describes it as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being dead.)
Rather, it is likened to death. It is the path way to death (eternal separation from the body and condemned to hell)...
[quote]The natural man, like Adam hiding in the garden, is isolated from God. When we are born again, the spiritual death is reversed.
I get what you are saying. That through the accredited righteousness of Christ to our account we have eternal life now... even before our bodies are changed... which brings up a counter point... why do Christians still die? I mean if what you say is true in the sense of actual death and actual life... why do we not go straight into resurrection and leave nothing behind for morticians to bury?
[QUOTE]Before salvation, we are dead spiritually, but Jesus gives us life. “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Ephesians 2:1 NKJV). “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).
Again... who were on the pathway to death in sin... The spirit in us is not listed as dead... and if so then the animals have a superiority to us according to Ecclesiastes because they still have a spirit until death...
Think of the Prodigal son who was dead and is alive...
continued...
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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body.
Ecclesiastes 3:18-21
18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 12:6-10
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I have established the biblical teaching that physical death is the absence of the spirit (not the soul) from the body. Death is therefore only the separation of the spirit from the body.
Please supply Bible verses to support spiritual death or that death is depended upon the position or disposition of the soul...
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Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God. In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that in the day he eats of the forbidden fruit he will “surely die.” Adam does fall, but his physical death does not occur immediately; God must have had another type of death in mind—spiritual death.
I already answered this with 2 Peter 3:8 that the "day" God was referring to was a time table of a thousand years. There is no reason to conclude he meant otherwise and it is human presumption to do so... adding opinion to Bible text.
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This separation from God is exactly what we see in Genesis 3:8. When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead.
A bit of a stretch. They physically hid in fear. There is no doubt fellowship was broken. That humanity fell from innocence to a sin nature... but spiritual death? Not here.
And I keep asking the question if spiritual death were possible... why did God need to create hell to dispose of spirits for eternity?
And if spirits could die then why could they not be redeemed for believing in Jesus?
They can't be redeemed because the angels that sinned cannot die and sinned in their eternal state.
continued...
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Carol Swenson
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 What Is Spiritual Death?
Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God. In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that in the day he eats of the forbidden fruit he will “surely die.” Adam does fall, but his physical death does not occur immediately; God must have had another type of death in mind—spiritual death. This separation from God is exactly what we see in Genesis 3:8. When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead.
When Jesus was hanging on the cross, He paid the price for us by dying on our behalf. Even though He is God, He still had to suffer the agony of a temporary separation from the Father due to the sin of the world He was carrying on the cross. After three hours of supernatural darkness, He cried, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:33-34). This spiritual separation from the Father was the result of the Son’s taking our sins upon Himself. That’s the impact of sin. Sin is the exact opposite of God, and God had to turn away from His own Son at that point in time.
A man without Christ is spiritually dead. Paul describes it as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being dead.) The natural man, like Adam hiding in the garden, is isolated from God. When we are born again, the spiritual death is reversed. Before salvation, we are dead spiritually, but Jesus gives us life. “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Ephesians 2:1 NKJV). “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).
To illustrate, think of Jesus’ raising of Lazarus in John 11. The physically dead Lazarus could do nothing for himself. He was unresponsive to all stimuli, oblivious to all life around him, beyond all help or hope—except for the help of Christ who is “the Resurrection and the Life” (John 11:25). At Christ’s call, Lazarus was filled with life, and he responded accordingly. In the same way, we were spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves, powerless to perceive the life of God—until Jesus called us to Himself. He “quickened” us; “not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5).
The book of Revelation speaks of a “second death,” which is a final (and eternal) separation from God. Only those who have never experienced new life in Christ will partake of the second death (Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8).
http://www.gotquestions.org/spiritual-death.html
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