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Topic: Dichotomy
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Carol Swenson said, from the LAB Commentary, that
quote:
We know the word of God is not really a sword, and we know it doesn’t really divide our joints and marrow, (they aren’t even connected to begin with). So why would we use this verse to try to prove that soul and spirit are really divided? This is a metaphor.
That part is not from the Life Application Bible Commentary. I wrote it.
quote:
The Word of God is of course not a literal, physical sword, but the Holy Spirit intends to make it clear that the Word of God ACTS LIKE A SWORD, namely that the Word of God "divides the functions of the soul and of the spirit and of the body" because after Adam was banned from the garden of Eden, Adam only had his soul to use to operate his body, and so the body and soul have "taken over" the functions of the Spirit of God and of the spirit of man.
Now, Carol Swenson, if I'm not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong), you currently think that the spirit/soul (as you wrote it) is "about the same thing", right?
They share the same definitions, and they are used interchangeably in the Bible. Also, they don’t always mean the same thing in the Bible. For example, sometimes soul means living creature, sometimes the whole person including the personality, and sometimes it means only the spiritual nature of man. If "soul" means the personality - the mind, emotions, and will - then why not just say "personality", and avoid the confusion of the overlapping definitions of soul and spirit? When I say soul I mean "The spiritual nature of human beings, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state." When I say "spirit" I mean "The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death." They are the same. Does the soul/spirit include the personality? Yes because the personality, the individual person, enjoys Heaven, or suffers in Hades. So the soul/spirit is the inner man and everything about the inner man. The Holy Spirit has intellect, emotions, and will. Our soul/spirit does also. Soul and spirit cannot be divided into two parts as if they were two different things.
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Okay, if that is the case, when Adam was still in the garden of Eden, Adam had access to the tree of life, and Adam was forbidden to eat--but he did have access to if he wanted to eat of it--the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
To me, the tree of life represents the Spirit of God, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents the soul.
The Tree of Life is Eternal Life. The tree of knowledge was Adam and Eve’s opportunity to demonstrate obedience and loyalty to God.
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So note, when Adam sinned in the garden, he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, i.e., he followed Lucifer-Satan's example and began to do his own thinking, just as Lucifer-Satan had done.
As a result of this sin, God drove Adam "out of the garden" and "blocked Adam from having access to the tree of life":
Perhaps Adam and Eve would have been doomed to an eternity of sinful, painful, and death-ridden existence if they had also eaten of the Tree of Life. God was merciful to prevent that from happening. But I don't think Eternal Life is something that can be taken by a sinful person anyway. It is a gift given by God to those who are redeemed by Jesus Christ. Before they sinned they did not need to be redeemed so the Tree of Life was within their reach.
God was also merciful to perform the first animal sacrifice and clothe them. And He told Eve that one day her seed would conquer the enemy.
The sin was not that Adam began to do his own thinking. God wanted Adam to name the animals; He wanted Adam to think for himself. The sin was DISOBEDIENCE.
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So at this point, Adam is outside the garden, but he is clearly still capable of operating his body, because we today are descended from Adam.
But clearly back there in the garden, Adam lost access to something. If you say that the spirit/soul is "about the same thing", what then did Adam lose access to "back there in the garden"?
He lost access to the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life! Daily life would now become a struggle for the man and woman outside the garden as they toiled for their bread and raised their family. They could still have fellowship with God, but they would daily suffer the consequences of their sin, and so would their descendants after them. The law of sin and death would now operate in the human family until the end of time.
Adam and Eve should have been running to God, confessing their sin, and asking for His forgiveness. But instead, they were hiding from God, and He had to find them. First, God called to Adam to give him opportunity to answer and come out into the open. That God called him at all was an act of grace, for God could have spoken the word of judgment and justly destroyed Adam and Eve. Another gracious wonder was that Adam could hear God’s voice and respond, for his inner nature had been so polluted by sin that he didn’t want to face God.
Once Adam and Eve came out of hiding, Adam confessed their shame (they were naked) and their fear (they were guilty). Without saying it openly, Adam was admitting that they had eaten from the forbidden tree. However, when God asked him pointblank if he had eaten of the tree, Adam never said, “Yes, I did!” Instead, he blamed both God and his wife! When God questioned Eve, she blamed the serpent. (She didn’t say, “The serpent that You created,” but perhaps she thought it.) There were excuses but no confessions.
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That left Adam only with his soul which he and Eve, like Lucifer-Satan, had activated while they were in the garden, and Adam had no choice but to operate his body with his 5 soul senses alone, and even if Adam had wanted to "return", Adam could not return because the LORD God had "driven him from accessing the tree of life".
Adam did not activate his soul. God created him as a living soul. And he had more than just his 5 senses. He had reason and emotion and imagination and so on.
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Also without the quickening of the Spirit of God in our now-idle spirit of man, Adam gradually began to die, until he died at age 950. Over time, Abraham still lived to be 175, until Joseph lived to be only 110 years old. Why? Because the Spirit of God was no longer flooding the spirit of man with Light and Life.
The wages of sin is death. God is life - a separation from God is a separation from life. "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
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But when Jesus died on the cross for us, Jesus regained for us the right to have access to the Spirit of God which was lost to us in the garden of Eden.
God spoke to Cain, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and others, including the prophets.
quote:
Those who have become Christians have repented of running their life from the 5 senses soul level, and all the sins that were the result of that, and the Christian begins to look to his quickened spirit of man again because, thanks to Jesus, the Christian's spirit of man has been "quickened again by the Spirit of God":
We do not look to the spirit of man. We look to our Lord Jesus Christ.
When God says a "new spirit" in this verse, He is talking about His own Spirit, the Holy Spirit.
Ezekiel 36:26 - 27 (NLT)
And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations.
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And in this manner, we are restored to the original condition which also existed in the garden, namely we begin to "walk with God again in the garden", through the Spirit of God flooding and speaking to our spirit of man the counsels of God, which the soul now faithfully executes, to the benefit of itself and of the body, for God is not limited to our 5 senses but God can see "all in all", and counsels us accordingly.
We are being sanctified. We will not truly walk with God again until after our resurrection and glorification. We are still sinners in this life.
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What Adam lost in the garden, Jesus regained for us, and that is use of the spirit of man and of the Spirit of God again, so that now our spirit of man is quickened again by the indwelling Holy Spirit and we are able to listen to our spirit of man again, thanks be to God and to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit.
When Christ died on the cross, He conquered sin and death, so that now grace can reign (Rom. 5:21) and God’s people can “reign in life” through Jesus Christ (v. 17). One day, when He returns, Jesus will restore to His own the dominion that was lost because of Adam (Heb. 2:5ff).
Praise God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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Carol Swenson said, from the LAB Commentary, that quote:
We know the word of God is not really a sword, and we know it doesn’t really divide our joints and marrow, (they aren’t even connected to begin with). So why would we use this verse to try to prove that soul and spirit are really divided? This is a metaphor.
The Word of God is of course not a literal, physical sword, but the Holy Spirit intends to make it clear that the Word of God ACTS LIKE A SWORD, namely that the Word of God "divides the functions of the soul and of the spirit and of the body" because after Adam was banned from the garden of Eden, Adam only had his soul to use to operate his body, and so the body and soul have "taken over" the functions of the Spirit of God and of the spirit of man.
Now, Carol Swenson, if I'm not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong), you currently think that the spirit/soul (as you wrote it) is "about the same thing", right?
Okay, if that is the case, when Adam was still in the garden of Eden, Adam had access to the tree of life, and Adam was forbidden to eat--but he did have access to if he wanted to eat of it--the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
To me, the tree of life represents the Spirit of God, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents the soul.
So note, when Adam sinned in the garden, he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, i.e., he followed Lucifer-Satan's example and began to do his own thinking, just as Lucifer-Satan had done.
As a result of this sin, God drove Adam "out of the garden" and "blocked Adam from having access to the tree of life":
Genesis 3
22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he also put out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eats and lives forever”,
23 Therefore the LORD God drove him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
So at this point, Adam is outside the garden, but he is clearly still capable of operating his body, because we today are descended from Adam.
But clearly back there in the garden, Adam lost access to something. If you say that the spirit/soul is "about the same thing", what then did Adam lose access to "back there in the garden"?
Because, not only did Adam choose to activate his soul life ("the knowledge of good and evil" and "become like one of them"), Adam also lost access to something that he had access to before. God drove Adam away so that Adam could no longer access the tree of life, which represents the Spirit of God.
But even if Adam had WANTED to go back and hear from the Spirit of God, Adam could no longer do that because the Spirit of God had "shut the door to his spirit of man" or "the Spirit of God had lifted off from his spirit of man", so even if Adam TRIED to listen to his spirit again (as in "buyer's remorse"), at this point his spirit of man was "no longer receiving anything from the Spirit of God", so Adam's spirit of man became "useless" and "idle" and "dead" in that the Spirit of God was "no longer quickening his spirit of man with Its Presence and Light", and hence Adam's spirit became "spiritually dead".
That left Adam only with his soul which he and Eve, like Lucifer-Satan, had activated while they were in the garden, and Adam had no choice but to operate his body with his 5 soul senses alone, and even if Adam had wanted to "return", Adam could not return because the LORD God had "driven him from accessing the tree of life".
And so we see from history that Adam CAN operate his body from the 5 soul senses only, but because the 5 soul senses only have a limited view of what is going on overall, eventually his choices resulted in more and more sin, until Adam has practically "destroyed the earth":
Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry ... and you destroy them who destroy the earth.
Also without the quickening of the Spirit of God in our now-idle spirit of man, Adam gradually began to die, until he died at age 950. Over time, Abraham still lived to be 175, until Joseph lived to be only 110 years old. Why? Because the Spirit of God was no longer flooding the spirit of man with Light and Life.
But when Jesus died on the cross for us, Jesus regained for us the right to have access to the
Spirit of God which was lost to us in the garden of Eden.
Those who have become Christians have repented of running their life from the 5 senses soul level, and all the sins that were the result of that, and the Christian begins to look to his quickened spirit of man again because, thanks to Jesus, the Christian's spirit of man has been "quickened again by the Spirit of God":
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.
Ephesians 2:1
And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ (by grace are you saved).
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all your trespasses.
Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you ...
As a result, the Spirit of God floods the spirit of man again with Light and Life, as the soul, by obedience, begins to look to his spirit of man again for Life and Light and Counsel from the Spirit of God:
Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
And in this manner, we are restored to the original condition which also existed in the garden, namely we begin to "walk with God again in the garden", through the Spirit of God flooding and speaking to our spirit of man the counsels of God, which the soul now faithfully executes, to the benefit of itself and of the body, for God is not limited to our 5 senses but God can see "all in all", and counsels us accordingly.
What Adam lost in the garden, Jesus regained for us, and that is use of the spirit of man and of the Spirit of God again, so that now our spirit of man is quickened again by the indwelling Holy Spirit and we are able to listen to our spirit of man again, thanks be to God and to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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We know the word of God is not really a sword, and we know it doesn’t really divide our joints and marrow, (they aren’t even connected to begin with). So why would we use this verse to try to prove that soul and spirit are really divided? This is a metaphor.
The word of God penetrates through our outer facade and reveals what lies deep inside. The metaphor of a two-edged sword pictures the word of God, like a knife, revealing who we really are on the inside. It discerns what is within us, both good and evil. It penetrates the core of our moral and spiritual lives. The word of God, sharper than a two-edged sword, pierces even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow. These words develop the metaphor; they are not a commentary on people’s physiological or spiritual makeup. Nothing can be hidden from God; neither can we hide from ourselves if we sincerely study the word of God. It reaches deep past our outer life as a knife passes through skin. It delves deep into our inner lives, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The word translated “is a discerner” can also be translated “judges” (NIV). At this point, our thoughts, motives, attitudes, and intentions are shown to us as being good or evil; we cannot escape God’s judgment on them and we dare not ignore God’s warning to us. We cannot keep secrets from God. (LAB Commentary)
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Thunderz7
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Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
I believe the truth of the spirt, soul and body teaching has its root in this verse,
the soul/spirit making up the heart of a man, that can only be discerned by the WORD of YHWH.
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Carol Swenson wrote quote:
I never said He was Adamic. I said He is fully human and fully God. Conceived by the Holy Spirit of God and born of woman. "In the beginning was the Word...". Yes He came from Heaven, but He was born as a human being. He had to be born as a man under the Law to fulfill the Law and the prophets.
By Job, I think you got it!
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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I never said He was Adamic. I said He is fully human and fully God. Conceived by the Holy Spirit of God and born of woman. "In the beginning was the Word...". Yes He came from Heaven, but He was born as a human being. He had to be born as a man under the Law to fulfill the Law and the prophets.
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Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Colossians 1:22 (NLT)
Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.
Paul emphasized the physical body of Jesus Christ that was nailed to the cross. The false teachers denied the Incarnation and taught that Jesus Christ did not have a real human body. Their philosophy that all matter was evil made it necessary for them to draw this false conclusion. But the New Testament makes it clear that Jesus did have a fully human body, and that He bore our sins on that body on the cross.
First of all, let me quote Colossians 1:22 from the KJV instead of the NLT:
Colossians 1
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
Of course Jesus had a human body, but Jesus did NOT have a sinful human body like ours. Jesus had a sinless human body like Adam had before Adam sinned. That is why the Bible calls Jesus the "second man" and the "last Adam":
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Clearly, if Jesus had come through the Adamic line of descent, Jesus would have been about the "one-billionth man", and NOT the "second man". Jesus was the "second man" because He was made "just like the first Adam" before the first Adam sinned.
And that is also why Jesus was called "the last Adam":
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
In all history, there were ONLY TWO ADAMS, the FIRST Adam who was in the garden and sinned with his heretofore sinless human body, and the SECOND Adam Jesus who did NOT sin with His sinless body.
In order for God to make it fair, God had to give Jesus an identical sinless body with the same capabilities as the first Adam had.
Therefore God could not let Jesus be born through the Adamic line because that Adamic line was corrupted by sin, and therefore God had to INJECT this "second man" and "last Adam" INTO the creation by overshadowing Mary with the Holy Spirit from heaven, so that the Bible could say:
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Jesus was NOT from earth, but from heaven. And He was made FULLY HUMAN, not from sinful men, but just as the first man. Jesus is the second man, made just like the first man, and with identical capabilities, made sinless, yet with the capacity to sin, should He choose to do so.
1 Peter 2
21 For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps,
22 Who did not sin, neither was guile found in His mouth.
So Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Paul emphasized the physical body of Jesus Christ that was nailed to the cross. The false teachers denied the Incarnation and taught that Jesus Christ did not have a real human body. Their philosophy that all matter was evil made it necessary for them to draw this false conclusion. But the New Testament makes it clear that Jesus did have a fully human body, and that He bore our sins on that body on the cross.
Jesus was made sinless like the first Adam before Adam, not like the later sinful man descended from Adam.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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Colossians 1:22 (NLT)
Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.
Paul (the Apostle) emphasized the physical body of Jesus Christ that was nailed to the cross. The false teachers denied the Incarnation and taught that Jesus Christ did not have a real human body. Their philosophy that all matter was evil made it necessary for them to draw this false conclusion. But the New Testament makes it clear that Jesus did have a fully human body, and that He bore our sins on that body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24).
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Carol Swenson wrote quote:
He was born of a human woman. Jesus Christ is fully human and fully God.
Mary was only a surrogate mother, in whose womb a fully Holy Spirit fertilized egg was implanted, just as humans learned to do with in vitro fertilization. The only part Mary contributed was the nutrients in her blood. For the rest, Jesus was entirely "made in heaven".
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Jesus's body was not from earth, but from heaven.
He was born of a human woman. Jesus Christ is fully human and fully God.
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Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Although some early Christians saw the phrase “more perfect tabernacle” as a reference to Christ’s incarnation, that could not be what the author of Hebrews had in mind. The writer clearly says that this tabernacle is “not a part of this creation,” so it couldn’t refer to Christ’s human body.
The Bible points out that Jesus Christ's body was not of this creation but was from heaven:
Luke 1:35
And the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you; therefore that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.
That is to say, the body of Jesus Chris DID NOT COME through the Adamic line but the body of Jesus came directly from heaven, by way of the Holy Spirit and thus the body of Jesus was INJECTED into this creation, directly from heaven, by the agency of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore also Jesus said:
John 3:31
He who comes from above is above all: he who of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth: he who comes from heaven is above all.
And when it comes to having a "tabernacle not made with hands", note what Paul said we will also receive:
2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
That is almost identical phraseology as that in Hebrews 9:11 and was probably written by the same writer, namely, Paul:
Hebrews 9
11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building.
So let me repeat what Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Although some early Christians saw the phrase “more perfect tabernacle” as a reference to Christ’s incarnation, that could not be what the author of Hebrews had in mind. The writer clearly says that this tabernacle is “not a part of this creation,” so it couldn’t refer to Christ’s human body.
Jesus's body was not from earth, but from heaven.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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Hebrews 9:11
When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. (NIV)
Although the people worshiped under the old covenant for nearly fifteen hundred years, God provided a new way that arrived when Christ came. Christ fulfilled perfectly and completely all that had been illustrated in the old covenant (described in 9:1-10). Christ did not come under the old covenant; he came as a priest of the new covenant (described in 8:10-12). This new covenant is described as the good things that are already here. With Christ, the new covenant has arrived, changing the way people are forgiven. While alive on earth, Christians experience some of the blessings of the new covenant. In heaven, Christians will experience all of the blessings fully. Ephesians 1:3 says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” (NRSV).
As a high priest, Christ also served in the tabernacle, but his ministry was not limited to the earthly tabernacle. Instead, he went though the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made … not a part of this creation. Christ served in the real, heavenly tabernacle because the earthly tabernacle had simply been an illustration of what was to come. Although some early Christians saw the phrase “more perfect tabernacle” as a reference to Christ’s incarnation, that could not be what the author of Hebrews had in mind. The writer clearly says that this tabernacle is “not a part of this creation,” so it couldn’t refer to Christ’s human body. Christ’s ministry on our behalf was in God’s presence, a place where the blood of goats and bulls would have no effect. This point again reveals Christ’s superiority. Verse 24 further explains this: “For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself” (NIV). (LAB Commentary)
Hebrews 9:11
NASB:
11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle , not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
YLT:
11And Christ being come, chief priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands—that is, not of this creation—
NRSV:
11But when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation),
NKJV:
11But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
NCV:
11But when Christ came as the high priest of the good things we now have, he entered the greater and more perfect tent. It is not made by humans and does not belong to this world.
KJV:
11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
ISVNT:
11But when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that was not made by human hands and that is not a part of this creation.
ESV:
11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
DRB:
11But Christ, being come an high Priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hand, that is, not of this creation:
DNT:
11But Christ being come high priest of the good things to come, by the better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, (that is, not of this creation,)
ASV:
11But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
RSV:
11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent£ (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
MSNT:
11But Christ appeared as a High Priest of the blessings that are soon to come by means of the greater and more perfect Tent of worship, a tent which has not been built with hands—that is to say does not belong to this material creation—
ICB:
11But Christ has come as the high priest of the good things we now have. The tent he entered is greater and more perfect. It is not made by men. It does not belong to this world.
NLT:
11So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven, which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world.
CEV:
11Christ came as the high priest of the good things that are now here. He also went into a much better tent that wasn’t made by humans and that doesn’t belong to this world.
HCSB:
11Now the Messiah has appeared, high priest of the good things that have come. In the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands (that is, not of this creation),
TEV:
11But Christ has already come as the High Priest of the good things that are already here. The tent in which he serves is greater and more perfect; it is not a tent made by human hands, that is, it is not a part of this created world.
GWT:
11But Christ came as a chief priest of the good things that are now here. Christ went through a better, more perfect tent that was not made by human hands and that is not part of this created world.
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Eden had quoted Hebrews 9:11 from the KJV quote:
Hebrews 9
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building.
Carol Swenson replied with a quote of Hebrews 9:11 from the NLT:
Hebrews 9 (NLT)
11 So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven, which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world.
I have been thinking about the difference between the KJV version and the NLT version. The KJV version said,
Hebrews 9 (KJV)
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building.
The KJV version says that Christ is "come ... by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands". And earlier in Hebrews 9:2, it spoke of the first tabernacle of Moses that WAS made with hands:
Hebrews 9
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
THAT first tabernacle was "made with human hands", but then v.11 says that Christ "came in a more perfect tabernacle not made with hands":
Hebrews 9
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building.
To me that has always meant that Christ came to earth in a tabernacle that was "not made with hands", meaning He had "come in a body made by the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary".
But the NLT interprets v.11 in a completely different way:
Hebrews 9 (NLT)
11 So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come[. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven, which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world.
I would like to hear from some other members of this bbs what their opinion is of this.
thanks, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
In the Old Testament, the tent of the congregation, or the temple of God, was a figure. But of what? It is a figure of man in his redeemed condition. Jesus said:
John 2
20 Then said the Jews, 46 years was this temple in building, and will you rear it up in three days?
21 But he spoke of the temple of his body.
The Tabernacle was a type of Christ.
In the Epistle to the Hebrews, the locus classicus of the tabernacle in Christian thought, the idea is more cosmical—the tabernacle in its holy and most holy divisions representing the earthly and the heavenly spheres of Christ’s activity. The Old Testament was but a shadow of the eternal substance, an indication of the true ideal (Heb 8:5; 10:1). (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=56;t=000064
quote:
Hebrews 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Hebrews 9:11 (NLT)
So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven , which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world.
quote:
The Apostle Paul also said,
1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
This temple was composed of three parts: the Holy of Holies, which represents the spirit of man; the Holy Place, which represents the soul; and the outer court, which represents the body.
Paul did not say we are composed of three parts!
quote:
After Adam sinned, the way to the Holy of Holies was shut off with a veil. The priest could daily enter the Holy Place but could not go into the Holy of Holies. That is to say, man could only operate out of the soul and the body.
When you read Jewish history, you discover that the glory that once dwelt in the tabernacle departed from it when the priests and the people sinned against the Lord (1 Sam. 4:21-22). Ichabod means “the glory is gone.” When Solomon dedicated the temple, God’s glory once again came to dwell with His people (1 Kings 8:10-11), but once again their sins drove God’s glory away (Ezek. 8:4; 9:3; 10:4, 18; 11:23).
The next time the glory of God came to earth was in the person of Jesus Christ (John 1:14). In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint), the word “abode” in Exodus 39:35 is the Greek word used in Luke 1:35 and translated “overshadowed.” Mary’s virgin womb was a holy of holies where the glory of God dwelt in the person of God’s Son. What did the world do with this glory? Nailed it to a cross!
Where is God’s glory today? The body of every true believer is the temple of God (1 Cor. 6:19-20), but so is the local church (1 Cor. 3:10-23) and the church universal (Eph. 2:20-22). When Solomon finished the temple, the glory of God moved in, but when God finishes building His church, He will move the church out! Then we will share God’s glory in heaven for all eternity! “And the city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it, and the Lamb is its light” (Rev. 21:22, NKJV). (Wiersbe)
quote:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of [b]soul and spirit and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Eden, you know the word of God is not really a sword, and you know it doesn’t really divide your joints and marrow, (they aren’t even connected to begin with). So why do you use this verse to try to prove that soul and spirit are really divided? This is a metaphor.
The word of God penetrates through our outer facade and reveals what lies deep inside. The metaphor of a two-edged sword pictures the word of God, like a knife, revealing who we really are on the inside. It discerns what is within us, both good and evil. It penetrates the core of our moral and spiritual lives. The word of God, sharper than a two-edged sword, pierces even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow. These words develop the metaphor; they are not a commentary on people’s physiological or spiritual makeup. Nothing can be hidden from God; neither can we hide from ourselves if we sincerely study the word of God. It reaches deep past our outer life as a knife passes through skin. It delves deep into our inner lives, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The word translated “is a discerner” can also be translated “judges” (NIV). At this point, our thoughts, motives, attitudes, and intentions are shown to us as being good or evil; we cannot escape God’s judgment on them and we dare not ignore God’s warning to us. We cannot keep secrets from God. (LAB Commentary)
quote:
1Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Moses declares in Deut 6:5, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." It appears Moses is also teaching a trichotomy of sorts. But notice that Moses' three parts are different from Paul's. Moses seems to be teaching we are composed of heart, soul, and strength.
Two of these "parts" Paul doesn't mention. So maybe heart and strength should be added to Paul's three making humans five-part beings (pentachotomy?).
2Kings 23:25 says about king Josiah, "Now before him there was no king like him, who turned to the LORD with all his heart, with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the Law of Moses; nor after him did any arise like him."
Here the writer also appears to be teaching a kind of trichotomy. But he uses one new term - "might." So maybe this term needs to be added to the above five making humans six-part beings (hexachotomy?)
In Matt 22:37, Jesus appears to be referring to Deut 6:5. But He words it a little differently, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." So in addition to the above, "mind" now needs to be added making us seven-part beings (septachotomy?).
Interestingly, the next two times Jesus is recorded as repeating this command, He again words it differently, "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength" (Mark 12:30; see also Luke 10:27).
All four of these terms have been mentioned previously; but why did Jesus go from a three to a four part description? Could it be that such descriptions are not meant to teach some kind of human anthropology. But instead, all Moses and Jesus are saying is we are to love God completely and the writer of 2Kings that Josiah turned to God completely.
In the same way, Paul could simply be praying for God to sanctify and preserve the Thessalonians completely.
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Eden
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In the Old Testament, the tent of the congregation, or the temple of God, was a figure. But of what? It is a figure of man in his redeemed condition. Jesus said:
John 2
20 Then said the Jews, 46 years was this temple in building, and will you rear it up in three days?
21 But he spoke of the temple of his body.
Hebrews 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
The Apostle Paul also said,
1 Corinthians 3:16
Don’t you that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
This temple was composed of three parts: the Holy of Holies, which represents the spirit of man; the Holy Place, which represents the soul; and the outer court, which represents the body.
After Adam sinned, the way to the Holy of Holies was shut off with a veil. The priest could daily enter the Holy Place but could not go into the Holy of Holies. That is to say, man could only operate out of the soul and the body.
But when Jesus died on the cross for us, He made the way of the Holy of Holies open to us again:
Mark 15:38
And the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom.
At this point the light of the Holy of Holies, which is the spirit of man illuminated by the Spirit of God, can shine into the Holy Place again, can shine into the soul again, and even shine out of the Holy Place into the outer court, into the body:
Exodus 40:35
And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
After the veil of the temple was rent, the Holy of Holies flooded the Holy Place with light. God gave us the Holy Spirit which can now flood the soul and the body with light again:
Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
The Holy Place, the soul, has access again to the wisdom and light and guidance of the Holy of Holies, where the spirit of God dwells in the spirit of man.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
One more thing … for those of us who think that the spirit and soul are the same thing, I say this:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Note that after a person is saved, God begins to divide or separate the spirit and separate the soul and also separate the body. What does this mean? It means that since the fall of Adam, Adam decided to “go it alone without the spirit” so that Adam operated his body with the instruments of his soul and body.
But after hundreds of generations of operating his life that way, man has no idea what exactly were the functions of the spirit of man and the functions of the soul and the functions of the body, so that God, with the help of the Written Word of God and also with the help of the Holy Spirit inside of us being guided directly by God, God has to separate the functions of the spirit of man and of the soul and of the body, so that their respective functions are restored to their original condition before Adam fell. Because right now all these functions are so jumbled together that God needs to divide them again for us, until our spirit of man and our soul and our body emerge again as they were originally intended to be used.
The veil of the temple of the body has been rent. We have access to the Holy of Holies again, which is the spirit of man in which the Spirit of God now dwells. God, Spirit, spirit of man, soul, body:
Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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“What is the difference between the spirit and soul of a human being?”
There is no simple answer to this question because the words, “soul” and “spirit,” are employed in varying senses within the different biblical contexts in which they may be found. The following represents a very brief summary of some of these major uses.
The Soul
The Hebrew term for “soul” is nephesh, found more than 780 times in the Old Testament. Because of the variety of contextual meanings, it is not always rendered by the English word “soul.” The King James Version uses 28 different words by which to translate the original term. Nephesh, therefore, signifies different things, depending upon the passage in which it occurs.
Similarly, in the Greek New Testament, the original word for “soul” is psuche, found 103 times. Our modern word “psychology” derives from this Greek term.
Here are some uses of “soul” in the Scriptures.
A Person
“Soul” may signify merely an individual person. The prophet Ezekiel declared that the “soul” (i.e., the person) who sins will surely die (Ezek. 18:20), or, as Peter would write centuries later, “eight souls” were saved by water in the days of Noah (1 Pet. 3:20). See also Exodus 1:5.
Life
In some contexts, “soul” simply has reference to biological life, the animating principle that is common to both humans and animals. All creatures have “life” (see Gen. 1:30; cf. ASV footnote). The wicked king, Herod the Great, sought to take the “life” of baby Jesus (Mt. 2:20; cf. Rev. 12:11). In one of the visions of the Apocalypse, certain creatures of the sea were said to possess psuche, or life (Rev. 8:9).
The Mind
“Soul” can have to do with that aspect of man that is characterized by the intellectual and emotional (Gen. 27:25; Job 30:16). It is the eternal component of man that is fashioned in the very image of God (Gen. 1:26), and that can exist apart from the physical body (Mt. 10:28; Rev. 6:9).
The Spirit
In the Old Testament, “spirit” is ruach, found some 378 times in the Hebrew Old Testament, and literally meaning “breath,” “wind,” etc. The corresponding Greek term is pneuma, occurring 379 times in the New Testament (the original form being found in our English word, pneumonia). Again, though, as with “soul,” the word “spirit” may take on different senses, depending upon its contextual setting.
The Air We Breathe
Ruach can literally denote a person’s “breath.” The queen of Sheba was “breathless” when she viewed the splendor of Solomon’s kingdom (see 1 Kgs. 10:4-5). The word can also signify the “wind.” For instance, some people, pursuing empty goals, are but striving after the “wind” (Eccl. 1:14,17, etc.).
A Non-physical Being
The term “spirit” can be employed, however, in a higher sense. It also is used to depict the nature of a non-material being, e.g. God. God (the Father), as to his essence, is spirit (Jn. 4:24), i.e., he is not a physical or material being (Lk. 24:39; Mt. 16:17; cf. also the expression, “Holy Spirit”). Similarly, angels are “spirit” in nature —though they are not deity in kind (Heb. 1:14).
A Person
“Spirit” can be used, by way of the figure of speech known as the synecdoche (part for the whole, or vice versa) for a person himself. John wrote: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world (1 Jn. 4:1; emp. added). Note that the term “spirits” is the equivalent of “false prophets” in this text.
The Soul
“Spirit” may refer to the “inward man” (2 Cor. 4:16) that is fashioned in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27), and thus be a synonym of “soul.” A sacred writer noted that the “spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah” (Prov. 20:27); this is an allusion to that element of man that distinguishes him from the beasts of the earth.
Daniel affirmed that his “spirit” was “grieved” within his body (Dan. 7:15), and Paul noted that it is man’s spirit that is capable of “knowing” things (1 Cor. 2:11). Paul also affirmed that church discipline is designed to save a man’s “spirit” in the day of the Lord (1 Cor. 5:5; see also, 1 Cor. 16:18; 2 Cor. 7:1; Jas. 2:26).
Attitude
“Spirit” sometimes stands for a person’s disposition or attitude —either for bad or good, e.g., the spirit of fear, etc. (2 Tim. 1:7), a meek and submissive spirit (cf. 1 Pet. 3:4), or a spirit of gentleness (Gal. 6:1).
Conclusion
From this brief discussion, then, it is readily apparent that the careful student must examine biblical words in their context. The context can override all other linguistic considerations, e.g., etymology and grammatical format. A Bible term, extracted from its original context, loses its divine authority.
One thing is for certain. An honest student cannot study the uses of “soul” and “spirit” in the documents of Scripture, and then conclude that humans are wholly mortal. And yet this is what skeptics contend, and some religionists allege as well (e.g., “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and Seventh-day Adventists).
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/526-soul-and-spirit-whats-the-difference
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Carol Swenson
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Is Man a Dichotomy or Trichotomy or Quadchotomy or Hexachotomy?
“I am fearfully and wonderfully made” (Psalm 139:14). With these words David worships his great Creator/God. Our study of the nature of man should also move us to worship our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
As Ryrie brought out in his introduction to chapter 32 (Basic Theology), man has a material part with a variety of features such as arteries, veins, brains, muscles, etc. All of us are agreed on this facet of man’s nature. Man also has an immaterial part with a variety of features such as soul, spirit, heart, will, mind, etc. This is where we agree to disagree on the nature of man. This is not a hill we must die on. But we do want to be as accurate and precise as possible when it comes to interpreting the Bible.
There are four positions on the trichotomy/dichotomy debate.
1. Monism, which is a non-conservative view, believes that man is one part. Monism was a reaction to the liberalism of Harry Emerson Fosdick who because of his belief in the immortality of the soul saw no need for a resurrection of the body. Monism taught that because the person is indivisible there is no existence of the soul after death and that the person will not exist after death until the resurrection of the body. This view eliminates the intermediate state of existence between death and resurrection which the Scriptures teach as demonstrated in the next paragraph (Christian Theology, Erickson, pp. 524-525).
Wayne Grudem defines monism on page 473 in his Systematic Theology. “According to monism, the scriptural terms soul and spirit are just other expressions for the ‘person’ himself, or for the person’s ‘life.’ This view has not generally been adopted by evangelical theologians because so many scriptural texts seem clearly to affirm that our souls or spirits live on after our bodies die (see Gen. 35:18; Ps. 31:5; Luke 23:43, 46; Acts 7:59; Phil. 1:23-24; 2 Cor. 5:8; Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9; 20:4).” The 2 Cor. 5:8 passage nails it for me: “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
2. Dichotomy which believes that man has two parts. This is the general view of Scripture.
3. Trichotomy which says that man is made of three parts. There are particular verses that indicate this view.
Louis Berkhof in his Systematic Theology gives the origin of the trichotomy view on page 191. “The tripartite conception of man originated in Greek philosophy, which conceived of the relation of the body and the spirit of man to each other after the analogy of the mutual relation between the material universe and God. It was thought that, just as the latter could enter into communion with each other only by means of a third or an intermediate being, so the former could enter into mutual vital relationships only by means of a third or intermediate element, namely, the soul.”
C. I. Scofield helped popularize this view beginning in 1909 in his Study Bible on page 1270.
4. Modified trichotomy/dichotomy view states that man has two parts with three functions.
Here are my responses to the arguments that favor trichotomy. First, I will state the argument in favor of trichotomy and then I will give my response in favor of dichotomy.
1. “Man is in three parts because he is made in the image of God who is a divine Trinity.”
This was the view of Franz Delitzsch in his A System of Biblical Psychology (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1966). Delitzsch compared the difference between soul and spirit to the distinctions between the persons of the Trinity. The persons of the Trinity, like soul and spirit, are distinct but not in essence (page 117).
Delitzsch , quoted Martin Luther, who likened the three parts of the believer to the three parts of the OT tabernacle. “To adduce a parallel to this from Scripture, Moses made a tabernacle with three distinct compartments (Ex. 26:33-34, 27:9). The first was called the holy of holies, since God dwelt there, and there was no light therein. The second was the holy place within which stood a candlestick with seven branches and lamps. The third was called the atrium or court; and it was under the open heaven, in the light of the sun. In the same figure a Christian man is depicted. His spirit is the holy of holies, God’s dwelling-place, in dim faith, without light. For he believes what he does not see, nor feels, nor apprehends. His soul is the holy place, whose seven lights represent the various powers of understanding, the perception and knowledge of material and visible things. His body is the atrium or court, which is manifest to every man, so that all can see what he does and how he lives” (Delitzsch, pp. 460-462). There is really no NT grounds for making the tabernacle a type or picture of the believer’s person.
Ryrie’s response to the Trinity analogy on the top of page 196, in his first edition of Basic Theology, is well said. “Certainly the Persons of the Trinity are equal, though the parts of man are not. To which Person of the Trinity would the body correspond?”
2. “The unsaved do not have a spirit. This was lost at the fall and is restored at conversion.”
Dr. Bowman asks and answers this question; “Does the unsaved person have a spirit? All flesh have a spirit (Numbers 16:22; 1 Cor. 2:11).” “And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be wroth with all the congregation”(Numbers 16:22)? Wayne Grudem states, “Of course, our ‘spirits are alive’ to God after regeneration (Rom. 8:10), but that is simply because we as whole persons are affected by regeneration. It is not just that our spirits were dead before—we were dead to God in trespasses and sins.” Read the rest of his arguments on page 701 of his Systematic Theology.
3. “The spirit is the God conscious aspect of man that enables man to worship God and the soul is the self conscious aspect of man that is synonymous with the mind.”
Scofield makes this distinction, “Because man is ‘spirit’ he is capable of God-consciousness, and of communication with God (Job 32:8; Psa. 18:28; Prov. 20:27); because he is ‘soul’ he has self-consciousness (Psa. 13:2; 42:5, 6, 11); because he is ‘body’ he has, through his senses, world-consciousness” (The Scofield Study Bible, page 1270.
Man’s nature cannot be compartmentalized this neatly. The spirit of man thinks, not just the soul. “They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine” (Isaiah 29:24). The soul of man worships or has a God-consciousness, not just the spirit. “”Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind” (Mt. 22:37).
These two terms, soul and spirit, are used interchangeably throughout Scripture.
Again Scofield fails to see the interchangeability of these two words, “In Scripture use, the distinction between spirit and soul may be traced. Briefly, that distinction is that the spirit is that part of man which ‘knows’ (1 Cor. 2:11), his mind; the soul is the seat of the affections, desires, and so the emotions, and of the active will, the self. ‘My soul is exceeding sorrowful; (Mt. 26:38; see also Mt. 11:29; and John 12:27)” (page 1270).
For trouble feelings: Not only does the soul feel but also the spirit of man. In the OT (Gen. 41:8 and Ps. 42:6); in the NT (John 12:27 “My soul is troubled” and John 13:21 “He was troubled in spirit”)
For expressing praise: Luke 1:46 and 47 where you have OT parallelism where the same thought is expressed with similar words. The soul can worship the Lord.
For death: Gen. 35:18 (soul departs); Acts 7:59 (spirit departs). Scripture never says that “the soul and spirit departed.” Wayne Grudem elaborates on this point. “If soul and spirit were separate and distinct things, we would expect that such language would be affirmed somewhere, if only to assure the reader that no essential part of the person is left behind. Yet we find no such language: the biblical authors do not seem to care whether they say that the soul departs or the spirit departs at death, for both seem to mean the same thing” (page. 474).
For persons in heaven: Heb. 12:23 (spirits); Rev. 6:9 (souls).
Both terms are ascribed to animals: souls in Gen. 1:24; spirit in Ecc. 3:21; Rev. 16:3.
The highest duties of Christians are demanded of the soul, not just the spirit: Mark 12:30; Luke 1:46, 47.
The whole man is referred to as body and soul (Mt. 10:28) and body and spirit (1 Cor. 5:3). Grudem asks a question that needs to be answered by trichotomists, “What can the spirit do that the soul cannot do? What can the soul do that the spirit cannot do?”
(Dr. Tim White.com)
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Carol Swenson
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Hi markus
Excellent point!!! God wants our whole selves. To love God and to love each other are the important things. We often debate details, but we need to remember what really matters is "'You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.' And, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Luke 10:27)
The indwelling Holy Spirit enables us to have faith, to worship, to praise our Lord, to love, to serve Him in ways that please Him - everything.
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markus
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Hi Carol,
I haven't had chance to read the 'dichotomy'thread and from glancing at it i'm out of my depth. But what struck me about the sc-fi, apart from enjoying the humour of''all other sc-fi's are sinking sand, is that Jesus asks us to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart
and with all your soul and with all your mind.'" and we 'love Him because He first loved us'
God wants our whole selves; the enabling is always from Him.He will bring forth praise, He will enable us to love Him. I presume it has to come from His Spirit within us.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
The soul CANNOT know God, only the spirit of man can know God because God is Spirit.
For, "Who can know the LORD's thoughts? Who knows enough to teach him?" But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16
"...the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools.... Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator...." Romans 1:18-25
quote:
When a man repents, he repents of "being so stupid as to try to rule by his 5 senses when God Himself is willing to rule by His Super, All-Seeing Intelligence".
We repent of our sins and believe on Jesus Christ.
quote:
But I do think that both the spirit of man and the soul can rule the body. But the spirit of man can draw upon the Super-Intelligence of God, while the soul can only draw on its very limited 5 senses.
Spirit and soul have the same definitions in English, Hebrew, and Greek . It's easier and more comfortable to continue with what we already believe, but to do that we have to ignore a fairly large body of factual evidence that the soul and the spirit are the same. The two words are interchangeable.
To say that the spirit of man can draw upon the Super-Intelligence of God, to me that sounds like He's just there to use when we need to. But He's sovereign - He's the creator and the Lord. The King of Kings. We are the servants, not Him. The Holy Spirit leads us when we become born again - He leads us to learn about and serve and glorify Jesus Christ, and to be transformed into His image.
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Eden
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Well, Carol Swenson, at least you are prolific in your resources and I compliment you on that.
You wrote quote:
Other verses teach that both the spirit and soul can have "wisdom." Hence, both have intellectual capabilities (Exod 28:3; Prov 24:14). And the spirit can "will" while the soul "chooses." Hence, both are capable of volition (Exod 35:21; Job 7:15). So the soul and the spirit are not "different in nature" as Nee claimed above.
I do think that the spirit of man and soul have somewhat similar capacities, in that, before Adam sinned, the spirit of man could direct the soul and the body what to do, as long as the soul had such confidence in what "came down the pike from the spirit of man" that the soul basically "kept itself open like a sluice in a dam" sort and "acquiesced upfront with the spirit's opinion".
But Adam was definitely able to run his own life from just the soul level, without input from his spirit of man, so that both the spirit and soul COULD operate the body.
Except that, without the input from his spirit of man, the soul would have to depend entirely for its opinions and ideas about how to proceed from his 5 senses alone, which is a much inferior way of "doing things" than when God through the Spirit counsels the spirit of man what to do and that counsel is so trusted in by the soul that the soul has learned to "just let the counsel of the spirit flow right through the soul to the body":
Genesis 3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Prior to "becoming naked", the Spirit of God flowed through the spirit of man through the soul of man to the body, without interruption, all were in accord.
But Adam sinned when he and Eve "ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil", which means that Adam, like Lucifer-Satan before him, "no longer needed or wanted the input from God" and "went their own way" by ruling over their own lives from the soul level only, which clearly was possible too:
Luke 20:14
But when the husbandmen saw him {the Son}, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, so that the inheritance may be ours.
They reasoned among themselves, but reasoning by way of the 5 senses is far inferior to the reasoning that God can do for us:
Psalm 92:5
O LORD, how great are Your works! And Your thoughts are very deep.
Isaiah 55
7 Let the wicked forsake his way and let the unrighteous man forsake his thoughts; and let him return to the LORD, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, and neither are your ways My ways, says the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and so are My thoughts higher than your thoughts.
But I do think that both the spirit of man and the soul can rule the body. But the spirit of man can draw upon the Super-Intelligence of God, while the soul can only draw on its very limited 5 senses.
When a man repents, he repents of "being so stupid as to try to rule by his 5 senses when God Himself is willing to rule by His Super, All-Seeing Intelligence".
Only a fool would reject such an offer. But there are many fools:
Luke 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luke 19:14
But his citizens hated him and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
But as for me and my house, we want Jesus to reign over us.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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...it is clear that in this position our conscious, thinking processes are not involved in knowing God. And this anti-intellectualism is a direct result of the trichotomist position.
None of the verses studied above give support to the trichotomist claim that the soul and spirit are somehow two distinct immaterial entities. Further, the teaching of trichotomists that emotions are experienced solely in the soul while communion with God occurs only in the spirit was contradicted by the verses studied (see also Ps 143:3-8; John 12:27; 13:21).
Other verses teach that both the spirit and soul can have "wisdom." Hence, both have intellectual capabilities (Exod 28:3; Prov 24:14). And the spirit can "will" while the soul "chooses." Hence, both are capable of volition (Exod 35:21; Job 7:15). So the soul and the spirit are not "different in nature" as Nee claimed above.
quote:
It's not all that complicated or "Sci-Fi". Before Adam sinned, the Spirit of God counseled the spirit of Adam and then the spirit of Adam relayed that information to the soul and then the soul executed that information in the body.
The unsaved are spiritually dead and separated from God. But when you are born again there is your Father and there is you without layers in between. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God; the Spirit of Christ. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are ONE. The Lord speaks to His people. He speaks through His Word, through His appointed people(like pastors and teachers), and directly to you.
Genesis 2
15 The Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it. 16 But the Lord God warned him, “You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden—17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.”
Then, the Lord interrogates Elijah. "What doest thou here, Elijah?" (1Kings 19:9). Arguing that he has been jealous for the Lord, Elijah insists, "I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away" (19:10). The Lord responds with a strong wind, an earthquake, and a fire (19:11-12) to show His Power, but He chooses to speak through "a Still Small Voice" (19:12). Though Elijah repeats his defense, the Lord commissions Elijah to anoint a new king of Syria, a new king of Israel, and Elisha-- to be his replacement (19:15-16). Then the Lord-- the Still Small Voice (19:12)-- proceeds to take away the last vestige of Elijah's fear of being all alone. "Yet I have left Me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him" (19:18).
IN Isaiah the Lord alludes to the promised Spirit of the New Covenant. "And thine ears shall hear a Word behind thee , saying, This is The Way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left" (Isaiah 30:21). Like Elijah's Still Small Voice (1Kings 19:12), Isaiah's "Word behind thee" (Isaiah 30:21) is the Voice of God to His people.
quote:
When Adam sinned, like Lucifer-Satan, Adam decided that "he no longer needed the spirit" and that he could rule his own life from the soul. In doing so, the soul became inflated at the expense of the spirit of man, which eventually lay totally "idle" or "unused".
Whenever any proposed teaching disagrees with the known Scriptures, we must reject the teaching. "The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35).
The Bible does not say that Adam decided that "he no longer needed the spirit" and that he could rule his own life from the soul.
The Bible says Genesis 3:7 “At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves.”
The spirit was not idle or unused, it was dead.
. . . but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die ." (NASB) Genesis 2:17
God did not just say, "you shall surely die." The original Hebrew records God as saying, "you shall surely die die." God repeated the word "die" twice. This Hebrew root word MUT means "to be executed - to die." He used "die" twice to imply physical AND spiritual death. Adam and Eve died spiritually then and physically later.
Everyone since then has been born spiritually dead.
quote:
After Jesus died on the cross, the believer who had repented from this "soul rule" and wanted his "spirit of man" to rule over his life again, he was allowed to receive and hear from the Holy Spirit again, and thus the original hierarchy was restored.
We accept the Lordship of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself , and take up his cross and follow Me. (Matthew 16:24)
quote:
The Spirit of God came into the believer AND revived (quickened, tuned up) the spirit of man, so that, after that, Jesus, the head of the body of the church, could counsel each believer from heaven, by way of the Spirit of God which is in man, and the Spirit of God conveys what it heard to the spirit of man (only spirit can understand spirit), and then the spirit of man conveys that information to the soul in a format that the soul can understand.
We are born again; regenerated.
quote:
Then, at the soul level, the believer can CHOOSE whether to execute in the body what it heard from the spirit, OR the soul can revert to its old way and CHOOSE to execute its own ideas again which are limited to its 5 senses ("hearing, seeing, touching, tasting, smelling"), also called "leaning on one's own understanding again".
So the soul is NOT a robot because the soul can EITHER look to the spirit of man which is now being counseled by the Holy Spirit, OR, the soul can "do its own thing again" at any time.
I have never trusted Nee, but I thought you liked him? According to Nee the soul does not choose anything. The soul does not even know anything (about God).
Nee says , "Intuition is related to communion or worship in that GOD IS KNOWN BY MAN INTUITIVELY and reveals His will to man in the intuition...."
Nee teaches , "... the soul is the site of personality. The will, intellect and emotions of man are there."
Nee says , "The organs of the soul are incompetent to worship God. GOD IS NOT APPREHENDED BY OUR THOUGHTS, feelings or intentions, for He can only be known directly in our spirits..."
So the personality does not know God, according to Nee.
quote:
As for the notion that this process of "Jesus to Spirit to spirit of man to soul to body" being "anti-intellectual", that is complete nonsense because, Jesus in heaven can see EVERYTHING so that the Counsel of Jesus by way of the Holy Spirit makes a believer MUCH SMARTER and EVEN MORE INTELLECTUAL than he was before.
Before being saved, the believer could only SEE IN PART because the believer could only judge what to do by the limited knowledge acquired by his 5 senses. But Jesus sees everything, so now the believer who "listens to his spirit is smarter than he ever was before".
Oh good. Now you can tell us what the story of Lazarus and the rich man really means!
quote:
The soul CANNOT know God, only the spirit of man can know God because God is Spirit.
“He restoreth my soul ” (Psalm 23:3).
“ My soul doth magnify the Lord , And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour” (Luke 1:46, 47).
quote:
But the soul CAN understand what the spirit of man is saying to the soul because the spirit of man was "designed to tranlate" what it heard from the Spirit of God and to "download" this to the soul in a format that the soul can understand.
quote:
There is no anti-intellectualism; when the soul repents and listens to the spirit of man again, the soul is "smarter than ever". For God is Super-Intellectual.
Ephesians 4
11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers . 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ.
God is all knowing, and He has given us lexicons because He knows that we are not.
Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Hebrew Aramaic Lexicon
In Hebrew "soul" refers to "that which breathes" and to the mind, desire, and emotions. And "spirit" refers to "that which breathes" and the part of us which experiences emotions and is responsible for "mental acts."
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon.
In Greek "soul" refers to the animating principle which feels, desires, and can attain everlasting life with God. And "spirit" is also the animating principle which feels, thinks, and decides.
Soul and spirit mean the same things.
quote:
By faith we say, "Lord, guide me from heaven with YOUR eye", and then we expect it to happen.
You said "The soul CANNOT know God, only the spirit of man can know God because God is Spirit." So how can you say anything by faith?
We cannot know God in all that He is. He is too big and wonderful for us to know all about Him. But we study the Bible, we pray, we fellowship...our thoughts are very much involved. God the Holy Spirit speaks directly to us.
The True Saints should invite the Spirit of God to introduce thoughts and ideas about the interpretation of Scripture, or any matter. "Teach me to do Thy will; for Thou art my God: Thy Spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness" (Psalm 143:10). But, we must "try the spirits whether they are of God" (1John 4:1), by prayerful consideration of any suggestion in Light of the Infallible Word of God .
"With my whole heart have I sought Thee: O let me not wander from Thy Commandments" (Psalm 119:10).
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Eden
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The article by Zeolla, as posted by Carol Swenson, said quote:
So in the trichotomist position, knowledge of God comes into us through some kind of "direct" route, either through intuition or dreams.
Either way, it is clear that in this position our conscious, thinking processes are not involved in knowing God. And this anti-intellectualism is a direct result of the trichotomist position.
It's not all that complicated or "Sci-Fi". Before Adam sinned, the Spirit of God counseled the spirit of Adam and then the spirit of Adam relayed that information to the soul and then the soul executed that information in the body.
When Adam sinned, like Lucifer-Satan, Adam decided that "he no longer needed the spirit" and that he could rule his own life from the soul. In doing so, the soul became inflated at the expense of the spirit of man, which eventually lay totally "idle" or "unused".
After Jesus died on the cross, the believer who had repented from this "soul rule" and wanted his "spirit of man" to rule over his life again, he was allowed to receive and hear from the Holy Spirit again, and thus the original hierarchy was restored.
The Spirit of God came into the believer AND revived (quickened, tuned up) the spirit of man, so that, after that, Jesus, the head of the body of the church, could counsel each believer from heaven, by way of the Spirit of God which is in man, and the Spirit of God conveys what it heard to the spirit of man (only spirit can understand spirit), and then the spirit of man conveys that information to the soul in a format that the soul can understand.
Then, at the soul level, the believer can CHOOSE whether to execute in the body what it heard from the spirit, OR the soul can revert to its old way and CHOOSE to execute its own ideas again which are limited to its 5 senses ("hearing, seeing, touching, tasting, smelling"), also called "leaning on one's own understanding again".
So the soul is NOT a robot because the soul can EITHER look to the spirit of man which is now being counseled by the Holy Spirit, OR, the soul can "do its own thing again" at any time.
In the Bible that is called "minding the things of the flesh" or "minding things of the spirit".
As for the notion that this process of "Jesus to Spirit to spirit of man to soul to body" being "anti-intellectual", that is complete nonsense because, Jesus in heaven can see EVERYTHING so that the Counsel of Jesus by way of the Holy Spirit makes a believer MUCH SMARTER and EVEN MORE INTELLECTUAL than he was before.
Before being saved, the believer could only SEE IN PART because the believer could only judge what to do by the limited knowledge acquired by his 5 senses. But Jesus sees everything, so now the believer who "listens to his spirit is smarter than he ever was before".
So, to repeat what the article said quote:
In the trichotomist position, knowledge of God comes into us through some kind of "direct" route, either through intuition or dreams.
No, it comes into us through the spirit of man which is now hearing again from the Spirit of God.
And the article said quote:
Either way, it is clear that in this position our conscious, thinking processes are not involved in knowing God.
The soul CANNOT know God, only the spirit of man can know God because God is Spirit.
But the soul CAN understand what the spirit of man is saying to the soul because the spirit of man was "designed to tranlate" what it heard from the Spirit of God and to "download" this to the soul in a format that the soul can understand.
So the soul can understand what the spirit of man is counseling to the soul and the soul knows that this counsel originally came from Jesus in heaven by way of the Holy Spirit.
Lastly, the article said quote:
And this anti-intellectualism is a direct result of the trichotomist position.
There is no anti-intellectualism; when the soul repents and listens to the spirit of man again, the soul is "smarter than ever". For God is Super-Intellectual.
The Bible calls it this:
1 Corinthians 1:30
... Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom ...
By faith we say, "Lord, guide me from heaven with YOUR eye", and then we expect it to happen. This is the True Sci-Fi, the Sci-Fi of God" (all other Sci-Fis are 'sinking sand')".
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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This is long but it's a very good study of soul and spirit.
Soul, Spirit, and Knowing God
By Gary F. Zeolla
PART ONE
Christians generally believe there is a part of us which is distinct from our material bodies. However, there is disagreement within the Christian community as to whether our immaterial nature consists of one part or two.
The belief that our immaterial nature consists of two parts is called trichotomy. It teaches that humans are composed of body, soul, and spirit. The opposing position is known as dichotomy. It teaches that soul and spirit are interchangeable terms for our one immaterial self. So the only distinction is between our material selves (our bodies) and our immaterial selves (our souls/ spirits).
But which position is correct? The answer to this question is important. What one believes about the relationship of the human soul and spirit will affect what one believes is involved in knowing God. This will become apparent by looking at the distinction trichotomists make between the soul and the spirit.
Does Our Intellect Matter?
Watchman Nee (1930-1972) was an influential preacher whose ideas still influence the Church today. His position is a good example of trichotomy.
Nee writes, "That the body is man's outward sheath is undoubtedly correct, but the Bible never confuses the spirit and soul as though they were the same. Not only are they different in terms; their very natures differ from each other."(1)
And what are these different natures? Nee teaches, "... the soul is the site of personality. The will, intellect and emotions of man are there."(2) And further, "The elements which make us human belong to the soul. Intellect, thought, ideals, love, emotion, discernment, choice, decision, etc., are but experiences of the soul."(3)
As for the spirit, Nee writes, "... EVERY communication of God with man occurs there." And Nee teaches the spirit has three main functions: "conscience, intuition and communion." These three functions are then defined as:
"The conscience is the discerning organ which distinguishes right and wrong; NOT, however, THROUGH THE INFLUENCE OF KNOWLEDGE stored in the mind but rather by a spontaneous direct judgment...."
Intuition is the sensing organ of the human spirit.... that knowledge which comes to us WITHOUT ANY HELP FROM THE MIND, emotion or volition comes intuitively...."
Communion is worshiping God. The organs of the soul are incompetent to worship God. GOD IS NOT APPREHENDED BY OUR THOUGHTS, feelings or intentions, for He can only be known directly in our spirits...(4)
The trichotomist position is also seen in the New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Its entry for "spirit" states, "The term soul specifies that in the immaterial part of man that concerns life, action, and emotion. Spirit is that part related to worship and divine communion."(5)
The idea of there being a distinction between soul and spirit is also promoted on the Internet. A posting on an Internet Newsgroup says:
Man was originally designed to commune with God through the spirit. That spirit in man would in turn put soul and body into subjection through obedience to God. The supernatural wisdom and power flowing from God would enter into the spirit of man and empower man to serve God.... The human has a spirit, a soul, and a body of flesh. Various things make up the soul, such as mind, will and emotions.(6)
And a World Wide Web page states, "Man is a soul being which contains a spirit. The soul is the center of: person, life, emotion, desires & appetites.... Through the spirit in us, we can glorify & worship God in spirit. God sends the spirit."(7)
Summing up, these trichotomists teach that the soul is where our emotions, will, and thought reside. But the soul (and thus these attributes) is not involved in knowing God. It is only through the spirit that God is known. But how does the spirit come to know God?
Nee says, "Intuition is related to communion or worship in that GOD IS KNOWN BY MAN INTUITIVELY and reveals His will to man in the intuition...."(8) But what is "intuition?"
The American Heritage Dictionary's definition is: "In•tu•i•tion (în´t¡-îsh¹en, -ty¡-) noun. 1. a. The act or faculty of knowing or sensing WITHOUT THE USE OF RATIONAL PROCESSES; immediate cognition.... b. Knowledge gained by the use of this faculty; a perceptive insight. 2. A sense of something not evident or deducible; an impression."(9)
The Newsgroup posting gives a somewhat similar view:
The spirit will see things in another dimension and relate those things back to our soul through the brain. The brain will store this information in a place that we call the unconscious part of the mind. Sometimes our brain will let this information slip to the conscious side of our hemisphere and we will see what our spirit is seeing through what seems to us as a dream or lucid dream.(10)
So in the trichotomist position, knowledge of God comes into us through some kind of "direct" route, either through intuition or dreams. Either way, it is clear that in this position our conscious, thinking processes are not involved in knowing God. And this anti-intellectualism is a direct result of the trichotomist position.
Meanwhile, in the dichotomist view, the intellect (along with all of the other faculties mentioned above for both the soul and the spirit) would be involved in knowing God. So the question is, do we know God solely through some kind of non-conscious intuition or dreams, or does knowing God involve all of our faculties, including the intellect?
The way to answer this question is to look further at the relationship of the soul and the spirit.
Definitions of Soul and Spirit
English Dictionary:
The next step in this study will be to look at the definitions of the words soul and spirit. First to be looked at will be the definitions found in an English dictionary. Following are the possible definitions which are relevant to this study from The American Heritage Dictionary:
soul (sol) noun
1. The animating and vital principle in human beings, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.
2. The spiritual nature of human beings, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
3. The disembodied spirit of a dead human being; a shade....
5. A human being: "the homes of some nine hundred souls" (Garrison Keillor).
6. The central or integral part; the vital core: "It saddens me that this network . . . may lose its soul, which is after all the quest for news" (M. Kalb).
spir•it (spîr¹ît) noun
1. a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings. b. Incorporeal consciousness....
2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.
6. a. The part of a human being associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit. b. The essential nature of a person or group.
7. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.(11)
A comparison of these definitions will show many similarities. The most important to this discussion is the first definition for the soul where it is said to be "credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion" and the sixth definition for the spirit where the it is said to be, "associated with the mind, will, and feelings."
And note that the definition for soul uses the word spirit (#3); and the definition for spirit uses the word soul (#2).
In addition, a quick check of Roget's Thesaurus shows one of the synonyms given for soul is spirit; and one of the synonyms given for spirit is soul.(12) So in popular usage, the words soul and spirit are interchangeable.
Hebrew and Greek Lexicons:
The next area to study is how Hebrew and Greek lexicons define the meanings of the original words that soul and spirit translate. Below are the relevant portions for these words taken from Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Hebrew Aramaic Lexicon and Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon.
First, the Hebrew words for soul (nephesh) and spirit (ruach):
SOUL (nephesh):
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
SPIRIT (ruach)
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character(13)
So in Hebrew "soul" refers to "that which breathes" and to the mind, desire, and emotions. And "spirit" refers to "that which breathes" and the part of us which experiences emotions and is responsible for "mental acts."
Now the Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):
SOUL (psuche):
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a12) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death....
SPIRIT (pneuma)
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.(14)
Thus in Greek "soul" refers to the animating principle which feels, desires, and can attain everlasting life with God. And "spirit" is also the animating principle which feels, thinks, and decides. And notice once again, the use of the word soul to define spirit (twice in fact: 2b,3b). Only #4 for spirit gives so much as a hint the two might be distinct.
Summing up, overall the definitions of the English words and lexical entries for the Hebrew and Greek words indicate that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable terms, with common characteristics ascribed to both.
Back to Unger's
One of the examples of the trichotomist position quoted previously came from the New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Its entries for soul and spirit will now be studied in depth. Below are the relevant portions from both entries:
SOUL: (generally the rendering of Heb. nephesh, a "breathing" creature; Gk. psuche, "breath," etc., the equivalent of nephesh). The Heb. term may indicate not only the entire inner nature of man, but also his entire personality, i.e., all that pertains to the person of man; in the sense of person; somebody, everybody (Deut. 26:16; cf. Josh. 11:11,14)....
The Gk. term psuche has the simple meaning of life (Matt. 6:25; Luke 12:22); that in which there is life, a living being (1Cor. 15:45); every soul, i.e., every one (Acts 3:23). It also has the meaning of the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our soul, heart, etc.; RV [Revised Version] almost uniformly soul); the human soul, insofar as it is so constituted that, by the right use of aids offered it by God, it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness; the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life (3John 2; Heb. 13:17; James 1:21; 5:20; 1Pet. 1:9). Another meaning of psuche is the soul as an essence that differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (Matt. 10:28); the soul freed from the body, a disembodied soul (Acts 2:27; Rev. 20:4).
SPIRIT: (Heb. ruach, "breath, wind"; Gk. pneuma, "wind, breath," the "vital principle," etc.). A term used in the Scriptures generally to denote purely spiritual beings; also the spiritual, immortal part in man. Other terms (nephesh; psuche) refer to the animal soul or life of man, though it seems evident that these words are also used frequently in a broader and deeper sense with reference to man's spiritual nature (Gen. 2:7; Ps. 42:2; Matt. 10:28; 11:29)....
There are, however, passages (such as 1Thes. 5:23; Heb. 4:12) that emphasize a distinction between soul and spirit.
The term soul specifies that in the immaterial part of man that concerns life, action, and emotion. Spirit is that part related to worship and divine communion. The two terms are often used interchangeably, the same functions being ascribed to each....
However, soul and spirit are not always employed interchangeably. The soul is said to be lost, for example, but not the spirit [Mt 16:26; Mk 8:36]. When no technical distinctions are set forth, the Bible is dichotomous, but otherwise it is trichotomist (cf. Matt. 10:28; Acts 2:31; Rom. 8:10; Eph. 4:4; James 2:26; 1Pet. 2:11).(15)
The first two sentences of the third paragraph in the second entry were quoted near the beginning of this article. But note the sentence that follows, "The two terms are often used interchangeably, the same functions being ascribed to each." An interesting admission.
However, the articles also claim there are "passages that emphasize a distinction between soul and spirit " and says the terms "are not always employed interchangeably." But notice that only two Scripture references are given "that emphasize a distinction" and only one example of where the terms are not used interchangeably.
The last paragraph of the second article seems to be saying that if read casually the Bible appears to teach dichotomy. But if studied carefully, it is trichotomist.
**********
Footnotes:
1Watchman Nee. The Spiritual Man, Vol. I, (New York: Christian Fellowship Publishers, Inc., 1968), p. 21.
2Ibid., p.28.
3Ibid., p. 35.
4Ibid., p. 31, 32. Italics in original. Capitalization added.
5from New Unger's Bible Dictionary; originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (C) 1988, on the PC Study Bible 2.0.
6A Christian Perspective: alt.bible.prophecy, 3/10/1996.
7Dennis Schmidt: Overview of Body, Soul, & Spirit: (Internet page no longer valid).
8Nee, p. 32. Capitalization added.
9American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition, © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from InfoSoft International, Inc. All rights reserved. Capitalization added.
10"The dream image we see is called a lucid dream because we are aware of the dream state while we are in the dream." A Christian Perspective.
11American Heritage® Dictionary.
12The Original Roget's Thesaurus of English Words and Phrases (Americanized Version) is licensed from Longman Group UK Limited. Copyright © 1994 by Longman Group UK Limited. All rights reserved.
13Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Hebrew Aramaic Lexicon, on the Online Bible 6.20, 1995.
14Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, on the Online Bible 6.20, 1995.
15New Unger's Bible Dictionary.
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PART TWO
Watchman Nee and others were used as examples of the trichotomist position that teaches the intellect, volition (will), and emotions are contained in the soul. Whereas our intuition and dreams are experienced in our spirit. Furthermore, their position is communion with God occurs through the spirit, not the soul. It was then shown that this position led to an anti-intellectualism with regards to knowing God.
Other trichotomists divide up the human faculties differently. H.A. Ironside taught, "Soul … is the natural life with all its capabilities of passions, emotions and instincts."(1) Meanwhile, "It is the spirit that thinks; it is the spirit that weighs evidence; the spirit is that part of man to which God, who is Himself a Spirit, communicates His mind."(2)
In this form of trichotomy the anti-intellectualism of Nee and other trichotomists is avoided. But Ironside's position is similar to theirs in that he divides up human faculties between the soul and spirit. And he still teaches communion with God occurs through the spirit, not the soul. In the dichotomist view, there is no such division of human faculties and all human faculties are involved in our knowing God.
Part One also showed that in English and in Hebrew and Greek, the words "soul" and "spirit" are generally used interchangeably. But what does the Bible teach?
Verses with Both Soul and Spirit
This subject will be investigated by looking at verses which contain both the words soul and spirit. There are six such verses that are relevant to this study.(3) One passage where soul is used in one verse and spirit in the next will also be looked at.
1 Sam 1:15:
And Hannah answered and said, "No, my lord, I am a woman of sorrowful spirit. I have drunk neither wine nor intoxicating drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD." (4)
In both versions of the trichotomist position outlined above, it is said the soul is where emotions are experienced. But Hannah says she is experiencing the emotion of sorrow in her spirit. Trichotomists also teach it is in the spirit one relates to God. But Hannah says she is pouring out her soul before the LORD.
Job 7:11:
"Therefore I will not restrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul."
Job, like Hannah, is experiencing an emotion (in this case anguish) in his spirit. But more important is the structure of this verse. The Book of Job is included in the poetry section of the Bible. This is important because of a Hebrew poetic device know as Hebrew parallelism.
The New Geneva Study Bible (NGSB) explains this literary device, "The most prominent distinguishing feature of Hebrew poetry is the repetition of ideas, called parallelism. An idea is stated and then immediately expressed again in different words, with the same concepts of the two lines corresponding more or less closely."(5)
Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary elaborates:
The three main types of parallelism in biblical poetry are synonymous, antithetic, and synthetic.
Synonymous parallelism-- A parallel segment repeats an idea found in the previous segment. With this technique a kind of paraphrase is involved; line two restates the same thought found in line one, by using equivalent expressions [examples given are: Gen 4:23; Ps 2:4; 24:1-3; 51:2-3; 103:3,7-10; Jer. 17:10; Zech. 9:9].
Antithetic parallelism-- By means of this poetic construction, the thought of the first line is made clearer by contrast-- by the opposition expressed in the second line [examples given: Ps 1:6; 34:10; Prov 14:20]
Synthetic parallelism-- Also referred to as climactic or cumulative parallelism, this poetic construction expands the idea in line one by the idea in line two. In synthetic parallelism, therefore, there is an ascending (or descending) progression, a building up of thought, with each succeeding line adding to the first [example given: Ps 1:3].(6)
So when Job laments, "I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul" what form of parallelism is he using? Antithetic is easily ruled out as speak and complain, and anguish and bitterness are not antonyms.
It might be synthetic parallelism. "Complain" could be an expansion of "speak" and "anguish" can progress to "bitterness."(7) But in 10:1 Job repeats the second phrase, only this time he uses "speak" instead of "complain." So he seems to use the words interchangeably. And its hard to see how "soul" can an expansion of "spirit."
So the only option remaining is synonymous parallelism. Speak and complain are both means of vocalizing our feelings to others. Anguish and bitterness are both forms of severe emotional distress. Soul and spirit would then be where our emotions originate.
Isa 26:9:
"With my soul I have desired You in the night, yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; for when Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness."
Again, here is an example of Hebrew parallelism. It could be synthetic parallelism. Isaiah desires God at night and seeks Him in the morning. But then spirit would have to somehow be an expansion of soul (reversed from above).
A better option would be synonymous parallelism. "Desire" and "seek" would then be just different terms for expressing the need for God's presence, with "night" and "early" simply meaning "at all times." Then soul and spirit would both be a reference to where this need for God's presence originates. This viewpoint would eliminate the problem of how soul can be an expansion of spirit AND spirit be an expansion of soul.
Either way, once again, the soul is said to be relating to God in some manner, in this case by desiring Him.
Luke 1:46-47:
And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
This passage is a clear case of Hebrew parallelism of the synonymous variety.(8) This is easily seen by comparing the two sections, end to beginning. First, it should go without saying "the Lord" and "God my Savior" are referring to the one true Deity (Isa 43:10-12). (9)
Second, the Greek word for magnify is megaluno and includes the meaning, "to esteem highly, to extol, laud, celebrate." Meanwhile, the Greek word for "rejoice" is agalliao and means, "to exult, rejoice exceedingly, be exceeding glad."(10) So both words include the concept of joyful praise in God's presence.
So if "Lord" and "God" both refer to the one true Deity, and "magnify" and "rejoice" both refer to joyful praise in the presence of this Deity, then it would follow "soul" and "spirit" both refer to the place in humans where our joyful praise toward this Deity originates.
And note once again, Mary says she is experiencing emotions in both her soul and her spirit, and she is communing with God in both her soul and her spirit.
1Cor 15:45:
And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being [literally - soul]" The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
The New King James Version (quoted above) takes "spirit" as a reference to the human spirit by not capitalizing the word. If this translation is correct then this verse is contrasting Adam's soul with Jesus' human spirit.
This contrast might have some relevancy here. But the uniqueness of Jesus would make a direct application difficult. Further, the main purpose of this verse is to contrast Adam and Jesus, not soul and spirit.
The Modern King James Version translates the verse somewhat differently, "'The first man, Adam, was made a living soul,' the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit."(11)
Here, "Spirit" (being capitalized) is taken as a reference to the Holy Spirit and not the human spirit. If this interpretation is correct then this verse is not relevant to this study.(12)
The two verses most commonly cited in support of trichotomy will now be looked at.
1Thes 5:23:
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Watchman Nee comments on this verse:
From this we can easily understand that the whole person comprises three parts. This verse also makes a distinction between spirit and soul; otherwise Paul would have said simply "your soul." Since God has distinguished the human spirit from the human soul, we conclude that man is composed of not two, but three parts: spirit, soul and body.(13)
But is Nee's conclusion a valid inference from this verse? A comparison will be made with other verses in the Bible which mention "parts" of human beings.
Moses declares in Deut 6:5, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." It appears Moses is also teaching a trichotomy of sorts. But notice that Moses' three parts are different from Paul's. Moses seems to be teaching we are composed of heart, soul, and strength.
Two of these "parts" Paul doesn't mention. So maybe heart and strength should be added to Paul's three making humans five-part beings (pentachotomy?).
2Kings 23:25 says about king Josiah, "Now before him there was no king like him, who turned to the LORD with all his heart, with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the Law of Moses; nor after him did any arise like him."
Here the writer also appears to be teaching a kind of trichotomy. But he uses one new term - "might." So maybe this term needs to be added to the above five making humans six-part beings (hexachotomy?)
In Matt 22:37, Jesus appears to be referring to Deut 6:5. But He words it a little differently, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." So in addition to the above, "mind" now needs to be added making us seven-part beings (septachotomy?).
Interestingly, the next two times Jesus is recorded as repeating this command, He again words it differently, "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength" (Mark 12:30; see also Luke 10:27).
All four of these terms have been mentioned previously; but why did Jesus go from a three to a four part description? Could it be that such descriptions are not meant to teach some kind of human anthropology. But instead, all Moses and Jesus are saying is we are to love God completely and the writer of 2Kings that Josiah turned to God completely.
In the same way, Paul could simply be praying for God to sanctify and preserve the Thessalonians completely.
The NGSB agrees with this interpretation:
your whole spirit, soul, and body. Three words are used to emphasize the wholeness of the perfection. "Spirit" and "soul" are used as virtual synonyms in the Bible for the spiritual component of a person. When the terms occur together (as here and in Heb 4:12) it is difficult to find any significant difference in meaning. Compare the fourfold representation of "heart," "soul," "mind," and "strength" in Mark 12:30. (14)
Lastly on 1Thes 5:23, several other terms are also used in Scripture to refer to our immaterial nature: Mind - literally kidneys (Ps 7:9); Inward parts (Ps 51:6); Inmost body - literally rooms of the belly (Prov 18:8); Bile - literally liver (Lam 2:11); Inner being (Isa 16:11); and Inward man (Eph 3:16). Should we be divided into all of these parts also?
Heb 4:12:
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Nee comments, "The writer in this verse divides man's non-corporal element into two parts, 'soul and spirit.' Further, "And from this it follows that since soul and spirit can be divided, they must be different in nature. It is thus evident here that man is a composite of three parts."(15)
Ironside writes similarly, "Here we learn that God's Word distinguishes between soul and spirit."(16) But was it the original author's intent to teach such a division exists within us?
The NGSB comments on this verse:
division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow. Though some find here support for the view that a human being is basically a trichotomy consisting of body, soul, and spirit, the context is against it. It stresses the power of God's word to enter the deepest recesses of a person's being, not a sort of division into constitute parts. Also, if the idea of division were intended, we would expect the author to say "bone and marrow" instead of "joints and marrow."(17)
A little explanation on the last sentence might be helpful. The marrow is inside of the bone.(18) Meanwhile, the joint is, "A point of articulation between two or more bones, especially such a connection that allows motion."(19)
So the two are not directly connected so they cannot be divided in any literal sense. So the author cannot be using dividing "joints and marrow" as an illustration of dividing the soul and spirit.
John Gill elaborates further on this verse:
… the apostle's meaning seems to be this, that whereas the soul and spirit are invisible, and the joints and marrow are covered and hid; so sharp and quick sighted, and so penetrating is the divine Word, that it reaches the most secret and hidden things of men: and this sense is confirmed by what follows.
"and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" - Christ knows what is in man; he is the searcher of the hearts, and the trier of the reins of the children of men; and this will be more apparent at the last day, when he will make manifest the counsels of the heart, and will critically inquire, and accurately judge of them.(20)
So by looking at the context (namely, the rest of the verse), it is seen that the point of Hebrews 4:12 is not to teach some kind of anthropology. Rather, the intent of the verse is to emphasize the power of God's Word and its ability to reach into even our unseen parts.
Reverend Kim Riddlebarger arrives at a similar conclusion; but he approaches the verse from a different angle:
In Hebrews 4:12, is its argued that the author makes a clear division between soul and spirit, implying that they cannot be synonymous. But John Murray contends that the verb used here - translated as "dividing" in the NIV - is never used elsewhere in Scripture in the sense of distinguishing between two different things, but is always used when distributing and dividing up the various aspects of the same thing (see Heb 2:4; Lk 11:17-18; Mt 27:35; Jn 19:24).(21)
The point is not that the Word separates two distinct things - soul from spirit - but that "the Word of God judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart" (Heb 4:12). The Word does not divide soul from spirit, as though these were two distinct entities, but the Word does divide soul and spirit in the sense of penetrating our inner most parts.(22)
Conclusion
None of the verses studied above give support to the trichotomist claim that the soul and spirit are somehow two distinct immaterial entities. Further, the teaching of trichotomists that emotions are experienced solely in the soul while communion with God occurs only in the spirit was contradicted by the verses studied (see also Ps 143:3-8; John 12:27; 13:21).
Other verses teach that both the spirit and soul can have "wisdom." Hence, both have intellectual capabilities (Exod 28:3; Prov 24:14). And the spirit can "will" while the soul "chooses." Hence, both are capable of volition (Exod 35:21; Job 7:15). So the soul and the spirit are not "different in nature" as Nee claimed above.
Much more could be said on this subject. But this will have to suffice for now. There are two main points to this study. First, we cannot be separated into different immaterial parts with some of our faculties being placed in one part and other faculties in another part.
Reverend Riddlebarger writes, "As men and women, we are necessarily a body - the physical element of our nature, and we are also a soul/ spirit - an immaterial aspect described in the Bible as either soul or spirit. These two are united together as one person; as a psychosomatic unity."(23)
Second, and most importantly, our whole being, our intellect, volition, emotions, and intuition are involved in our knowing God (1Chron 28:9; Jer 24:7; John 4:24; 17:3.
**********
Footnotes: All Scripture references from: New King James Version . Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1982, unless otherwise indicated.
1) Ironside, H.A. Death and Afterwards . (Neptune, NJ: Loizeaux Brothers, Inc., N/A.), p. 36.
2) Ibid., pp. 38,39.
3) Two additional verses also have both words (Isa 42:1; Matt 12:18). But in these verses the reference is to the Holy Spirit not the human spirit.
4) All verses quoted from the New King James Version., Copyright 1982, Thomas Nelson Inc. Copied from the PC Study Bible: Complete Reference Library . (Seattle: Biblesoft, 1996), unless otherwise indicated.
5) Sproul, R.C. ed. New Geneva Study Bible: NKJV . (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1995), p. 752.
6) From Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary ; Copyright (C) 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers. In PC Study Bible 2.1.
7) One definition for bitterness is, "Resulting from or expressive of severe grief, anguish, or disappointment: cried bitter tears." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from InfoSoft International, Inc. All rights reserved.
8) "A synonymous parallelism like that of the Psalms characterizes vv. 46b-47." Liefeld, Walter L. Luke in Expositor's Bible Commentary . Vol. (Grand Rapids: Regency, 1984), p. 835.
9) This should go without saying. But actually Mormons teach "God" refers to the Father and "Lord" refers to the Son (but see 1Kings 18:36-39).
10) Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon .
11) Modern King James Version , copyright 1962, 1990, 1993. Used by permission of the copyright holder, J.P. Green, Sr.
12) See the study note for 1Cor 15:45 in the NGSB for a good explanation of why the latter is probably the preferred interpretation.
13) Watchman Nee. The Spiritual Man , Vol. I, (New York: Christian Fellowship Publishers, Inc., 1968), pp. 21-22. Emphases in original.
14) Sproul, p. 1900.
15) Nee, p. 23. Emphasis in original.
16) Ironside, p. 41.
17) Sproul, p. 1939.
18)_ "The inner spaces of long bones, as those in the arms and legs, are filled with marrow, important in the formation of blood cells." The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia is licensed from Columbia University Press. Copyright © 1995 by Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.
19) American Heritage® Dictionary.
20) John Gill's Expositor. In the Online Bible.
21) Murray, John. "Trichotomy." In Collected Writings of John Murray, Vol.2 (Carlisle: Banner of Truth, 1977), pp. 30-31.
22) Riddlebarger, Kim. Rev. "Trichotomy: A Beachhead for Gnostic Influences." In Modern Reformation, July/ August, 1995, p.24.
23) Riddlebarger, p.22.
Soul, Spirit, and Knowing God. Copyright © 1999 by Gary F. Zeolla of Darkness to Light ministry (www.dtl.org).
http://www.dtl.org/dtl/dtl/treatise/soul-spirit-1.htm
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