|
Author
|
Topic: Soul Sleep
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
The spirit of man, as an instrument, is still inside of man. It is just that after Adam sinned and was driven from the garden, that Adam (the soul) no longer had access to the Spirit of God, and as a result, Adam's spirit of man was not being "quickened" by the divine life of God.
It's much like an alternator and a battery in a car. If the alternator (the Spirit of God) is not recharging the battery, the battery is still there but it's so low on energy that we say "the battery is dead".
The battery is not "dead" in the sense that the battery will never function again, no, all the battery needs is to be reconnected to a functioning alternator and the battery becomes "alive" and "charged" again.
It's the same with the spirit of man, it's still there as an instrument in unsaved people, but it's "dead" in the sense that it has not been "charged" or "quickened" or "made alive" by the Spirit of God.
In us saved people, we have access to the Holy Spirit again and our spirit of man is "quickened" and "made alive" again.
love, Eden
IP: Logged | 
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
I think I understand the problem. You're saying that God is omnipresent, and you think that I am saying to be separated from God means spatially distant. No. I'm talking about spiritual separation, i.e., no love, no joy, no peace, no spiritual goodness of any kind. God is present in Hades, in Hell, even in Satan himself, in the sense that God is the Creator and sustainer of all things. He is present in His power. But not in His grace or mercy. We all know that God blesses the righteous and punishes the wicked.
Even when unbelievers seem to be happy and prosperous, we know that their happiness is based on their circumstances, and that their happiness is temporary.
Isaiah 57:20-21 (NASB)
But the wicked are like the tossing sea,
For it cannot be quiet,
And its waters toss up refuse and mud.
"There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
Galatians 5:19-21 (NLT)
When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
It would be less confusing if it was called spiritual misery. But it's called spiritual death, even though the spirit cannot die in the same way a body dies. The spirit does not cease to exist.
Those who are spiritually reborn in Christ enjoy a spiritual life that unbelievers can't:
Galatians 5:22-23 (NLT)
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
The Bible is very clear that death is not restricted to merely the physical death of the body, but the death of the spirit. When Adam and Eve sinned against God, they died that very day spiritually and lost their personal relationship with God. Is the concept of spiritual death supported in the Bible? Here are the scriptures (many by Jesus Himself):
But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me; and allow the dead to bury their own dead." (Matthew 8:22) - (How can physically dead people bury anyone?)
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
"'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ He is not the God of the dead but of the living." (Matthew 22:32)
"But we had to be merry and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found." (Luke 15:32) - (The prodigal son was spiritually dead until he repented)
And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10)
And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, (Colossians 2:13)
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:26)
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. (1 Peter 4:6)
And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 5:20)
I protest, brethren, by the boasting in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. (1 Corinthians 15:31)
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/spiritualdeath.html#zsSAfTewL33R
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
Spiritual death is a misnomer. The spirit does not die. Only when parabolic metaphor or exaggeration is taken out of context can one interpolate death is the isolation or separation of the spirit from God or eternal life...
Death is the cessation of life altogether. The spirit is not asleep in the death of the body. The spirits of the dead in Luke 16:19-31 were awake and aware and there was no mentioned gaps or lapses of consciousness. Separation did not factor into it except that they were all separated from their physical bodies. They were separate from each other (Abraham and the rich man which presents no bearing on life or death)...
and if you were to say they were separate from God in hades... then what say ye about...
Psalm 139:8
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
The Psalmist was asking the question where can one go away from the Spirit of God?
Where's the separation? Where's the spiritual death?
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
Spiritual death, unless I missed something, is a misnomer. Try doing a word search in the Bible.
Spiritual death is a concept born from the misunderstanding of Genesis 2:17...
Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
A&E ate the forbidden fruit and lived 930 years and died. So, those who misunderstood what was going on here determined it must have been a spiritual death... but A&E did not die spiritually when they ate the forbidden fruit. They died physically 930 years later (at least Adam did and Eve we know lived long enough to have many children... certainly she did not die in the same 24 hour period they ate the forbidden fruit.
What has been overlooked is the time table God referred to in Genesis 2:17 was different than the 24 hour day.
2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
1000 - 930 = 70 years to spare dying in that same day he ate the forbidden fruit.
Suffice it to say it is not enough to know what the Bible says but rather to gain the knowledge / wisdom / understanding we are so admonished to get (eyes that see ears that hear) to learn what the Bible means...
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Yes! And Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration.
Apart from Jesus, we are all spiritually dead, separated from God, and once this life on earth ends we will continue on eternally spiritually dead, separated from God forever. But in Christ, you and I began our spiritual life here on earth and it will continue into the hereafter without even a pause!
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
|
posted
Yes, and when a living soul physically passes away (this olf taberbnacle being put off), the spirit does not sleep, it returns to the Lord who made or gave it and so we see the 24 elders, and the multitudes in heaven, etc.,who lost their heads for the testimony of Jesus and the word awaiting the Lord's time of return...they are consciously individuals who are awake, aware of what happened and where they are, they are able to praise, worship, sing, and even speak, and so on...
The Lord bless
Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Um...
First, the Hebrew words for soul (nephesh) and spirit (ruach):
SOUL (nephesh):
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
SPIRIT (ruach)
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character(13)
So in Hebrew "soul" refers to "that which breathes" and to the mind, desire, and emotions. And "spirit" refers to "that which breathes" and the part of us which experiences emotions and is responsible for "mental acts."
Now the Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):
SOUL (psuche):
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a12) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death....
SPIRIT (pneuma)
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.(14)
Thus in Greek "soul" refers to the animating principle which feels, desires, and can attain everlasting life with God. And "spirit" is also the animating principle which feels, thinks, and decides. And notice once again, the use of the word soul to define spirit (twice in fact: 2b,3b). Only #4 for spirit gives so much as a hint the two might be distinct.
Summing up, overall the lexical entries for the Hebrew and Greek words indicate that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable terms, with common characteristics ascribed to both.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif) I absolutely agree with everything except this:
quote:
the regeneration of their soul (as when yellow and blue overlap in the diagram)
I'll post definitions below. There are probably more people who agree with you than with me, but that's okay.
And shucks folks, I like books and videos and education. They will NEVER take the place of His word, but He gave us teachers as gifts, and I LIKE them ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
The Bible gives us the answers... and saves us a lot of time if we'd just take God at his word rather than peruse volumes of books and hours of video and years of education that turn out to be mere human opinion / tradition... well dressed in argumentation... but devoid of the absolute foundation.. i.e. truth.
Most of the people who have said that before really meant, "Don't read them, read what I write instead."
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
double post sorry
IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
In English, Hebrew, and Greek, the words "soul" and "spirit" share the same definitions.
Um, soma, psuche, pneuma are distinct. The soul (psuche from which we get the english psyche) has traits of both the body and the spirit which is why it appears to be the buffer between the two (the physical and the unphysical).
quote:
No one will go to hell before the Great White Throne judgment. No one could go to Heaven before the atoning sacrifice of Christ and before receiving His imputed righteousness.
Perhaps I was unclear... sheol (temporary hell) and the lake of fire (final hell)... sheol is until the great judgment... it was the container or all human dead (their spirits that is) until the cross of Christ and his leading those captive there who believe in him to heaven in that still disembodied state.
Though the old testament saints have been in heaven ever since, and no believer goes to sheol since then but go directly to be with the Lord the moment their spirit separates from their bodies... 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (I should have included this in my earlier post mention of that chapter)... there is but one resurrected man in heaven to date: Jesus Christ.
All else are disembodied spirits awaiting the general resurrection... these are they who will come back with the Lord and whose bodies will rise first (the dead in Christ) to be reunited with their spirit and the regeneration of their soul (as when yellow and blue overlap in the diagram) and those who are alive down here and remain will be changed into that eternal state in the twinkling of the eyes (instantaneously) and the new heaven / earth will replace the old segmented order once the condemned have been raised to bow before the Lord Jesus (Philippians 2:10-11) and are then cast into the lake of fire where their bodies and souls will be eternally destroyed but their spirits will live on in torment and everlasting fire along with the spirits of the fallen angels (chiefest among them Lucifer).
Please point it out if I have left any stone unturned. The Bible gives us the answers... and saves us a lot of time if we'd just take God at his word rather than peruse volumes of books and hours of video and years of education that turn out to be mere human opinion / tradition... well dressed in argumentation... but devoid of the absolute foundation.. i.e. truth.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
btw, here's the diagram of sheol
The judgment the believers were awaiting was that of Christ on the Cross.
IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
I believe the OP and those who agree or disagree ought to consider we humans are a complicated creation. We were created with recycling in mind... no not reincarnation but resurrection from what we call death which affords us the ability to be redeemed.
Angels were not created with this ability / option... which is why they cannot be saved even when they believe.
James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jimmy left out a crucial piece of information (that the devils cannot be saved). There is still a ton of good theology in the book (it's still canon) and the statement he made is true and the intent to get believers off their duffs is genuine and is evidence of a genuine salvation (which cannot be earned or maintained by human means). Still the flock must be urged and prodded occasionally. James is a great place to go for that.
But we humans are created in the image of the Savior who is God incarnate and is the most unique person in existence (bar none). To be the bridge between both God and humanity, he (Jesus) had to be both... and in so doing or so being he is both yet neither are exactly like him. He is the lone theanthropos (God-man).
And we are created in his image (body soul spirit). His Spirit just happens to be divine and ours never will be... Isaiah 43:10-11... etc.
1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
He is a resurrected man (God-man resurrected from the dead to life eternal). We will be like him (except for the divine part).
Colossians 2:9
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Colossians 1:13-15
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Catch that? Jesus is the image of God and we are created in the image of Jesus...
Jesus had soul sleep 3 days and 3 nights as his body laid in the tomb for that length of time while his fully conscious Spirit went to sheol / hades / Abraham's bossom (Luke 16:19-31), declared the victory to the saved and the lost in sheol (1 Peter 3:18-19) and then he took the disembodied spirits of the redeemed to heaven (Ephesians 4:8-10) all within the three hours time frame from his death on the cross 3 PM, 14 Nisan 30 CE until the sun set at 6 PM in keeping with the promise to the thief on the cross
Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
There's no need to embellish Abraham's Bosom as paradise to cover for this statement as pastors and teachers tend to do... Jesus spoke of literal heaven (the two other times paradise occurs in scripture clearly refers to heaven where God's throne is)... and Jesus' statement in John 20:17 is post-resurrection and is therefore referring to the pass in review of the first fruits (wave) offering (Leviticus 23:15).
This, my friends, is why the Old Testament is relevant today...
So to sum up...
When we see passages in scripture about soul sleep yet conscious spirit and annihilation we must remember that these things refer to only part of our make up respectively...
Soul sleep is a misnomer. The body appears to sleep in death and slips into decay and eventual annihilation... the soul is annihilated at once as it is the buffer between our spirit and our body like the color creation of green in the diagram:
The spirit lives on. Note its is not listed a being destroyed even in hell...
Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The spirit lives on... even in hell (which answers the total annihilation debate).
There is even some question as to whether 1 Corinthians 5:5 is saying the one whose spirit is saved will be in eternity a disembodied spirit forever while those not in his dilemma will have resurrected bodies... see also Romans 8:23, 2 Corinthians 5:1-5...
IP: Logged |
|
|
Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
|
posted
Let me go way back to Eden's disagreement with my comment. Eden I lobe you my brother but I never said they were not the result of the Lord blowing "neshamah" into them to animate them (as this is what this means).
I said the animal/nephesh are not "ruah", i.e., spirit beings. We are also this, made in the image of God. With animal/nephesh there is no ruah, they are not made in the image of God.
I hope this has helped clarify our misunderstanding.
Love in Christ
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
And like the wine at the wedding in Cana of Galilee, it will probably be "the best dog food yer pooch has ev'r had". Doggie will be thinking, "WHERE did she get THIS dog food from, how come she's been feedin' me that other stuff all these years???" But like the servants at Kana, YOU'll know where it came from ... won't you, saying, "fill em up to the top, boys!, fill em up to the top!"
John 2
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.
3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”
4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”
6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece.
7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” And they filled them up to the brim.
8 And He said to them, “Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast.” And they took it.
9 When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom.
10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!”
11 This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.
love, Eden
"have faith in God"
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
The Zarephath Dog Company, Denver, Colorado.
"Our Bag Is Never Empty; Our Bowl Is Never Dry"
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Not to worry, God even has the dog food lined up for your dog at the Zarephath Dog Company. mmmmmmmm
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Thanks. I feel better knowing that I'll go through the Tribulation so I can feed my dog.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Carol Swenson wrote quote:
I know it upsets me to think that the Rapture will occur and countless millions of domestic animals will be left behind to starve.
What do you think?
That's why the rapture won't happen until the Second Coming of Jesus, so there'll be no interruption in the kibbles 'n bits.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
However
There is a long and serious debate about whether there are animals in heaven, and if animals go to heaven.
Matthew Henry wrote:
...Balaam had notice given him of God's displeasure, by the *** , and this did not startle him. The *** saw the angel (verse 23). How vainly did Balaam boast that he was a man whose eyes were open, and that he saw the visions of the Almighty (Numbers 24:3, 4), when the *** he rode on saw more than he did, his eyes being blinded with covetousness and ambition. Let none be puffed up with the conceit of visions and revelations, when even an *** saw an angel; to save both herself and her senseless rider, ... She turned aside out of the way, (verse 23). Balaam should have taken the hint of this, and considered whether he was not out of the way of his duty; but, instead of this, he beat her into the way again. Thus those who by willful sin are running headlong into perdition are angry at those that would prevent their ruin.
We are made in the image of God, and we have dominion over animals. But God loves all His creatures. I know it upsets me to think that the Rapture will occur and countless millions of domestic animals will be left behind to starve.
What do you think?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Carol Swenson wrote quote:
We are made in the image of God. We are more than just breathing, living creatures.
Now you are talking. That is indeed the one difference between us and the other "breathers"; only of breathing man is it said that we are "made in the image of God". This is NOT said of any of the other "breathers".
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
I think I have shown above that animals and man are identical; both are dust of the ground and both had neshamah blown into them, hence, they both have a spirit (neshamah) and a body (dust of the ground) and both are a living creature (nephesh hayya).
We are made in the image of God. We are more than just breathing, living creatures.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Then if we are identical to fish we would be able to breathe water.
The Hebrew word "nephesh" means literally "a breather" and a "nephesh hayya" is literally a "living breather". But God has made each living breather or living creature after its own kind: some for the land, some for the sea, and some for the air.
love, Eden
Scuba class starts on Feb. 1, 2010
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Then if we are identical to fish we would be able to breathe water.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Carol Swenson asked quote:
What about fish?
Presumably she is asking if fish have a spirit {neshamah} and a body {dust of the ground} and are a nephesh hayya {living creature} ...
Genesis 1
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life ...
21 And God created great whales and every living creature that moves which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind ...
Yes, fish too, were formed of the dust of the ground and God blew His neshamah into them and they became a living creature or nephesh hayya.
If you are asking if the fish died in the flood, probably a lot of fish died because the flood disturbed their habitat and feeding grounds and caused water to become brackish and salty in places.
But other fish survived because they are water-based animals and the flood primarily caused dry land animals to die:
Genesis 7:22
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Brother Paul wrote quote:
The animals capable of choice and affection that have nephesh do not have/or are not thought of as a spirit, only humans and the various orders of angels.
In Genesis 2:7, God made man and God "breathed into man's nostrils" and man "became a living soul" or a "nephesh hayya" or a "living creature":
Genesis 2
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul {Heb., nephesh hayya}.
And God made the animals from the dust of the ground and they also became "living creatures" or "nephesh hayya":
Genesis 1
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature {Heb., nephesh hayya} after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
So man and animals were both "nephesh hayya". Now when God made man, God took of the dust of the ground and God blew the breath of life into the nostrils of man, and "man became a living soul":
Genesis 2
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The words breath of life are in Hebrew neshamah, and when God blew this "neshamah" into the dust of the ground, the result was a "living creature".
Now Brother Paul above said quote:
The animals capable of choice and affection that have nephesh do not have/or are not thought of as a spirit, only humans and the various orders of angels.
I don't think that is correct. In Genesis 7, the flood is described, and Genesis 7:20-21 says:
Genesis 7
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl and of cattle and of beast and of every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth and every man.
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
In v.22, the words breath of life are again in Hebrew neshamah, which is the very same thing that was blown into the nostrils of man in Genesis 2:7.
And v.22 clearly says that all the animals had that same neshamah blown in them, so that God formed the animals from the dust of the ground and when God blew the neshamah into them, the animals became living creatures IDENTICAL to man, meaning they had a spirit and a body, and those two together formed a "living creature" or "nephesh hayya".
So let me repeat what Brother Paul said quote:
The animals capable of choice and affection that have nephesh do not have/or are not thought of as a spirit, only humans and the various orders of angels.
I think I have shown above that animals and man are identical; both are dust of the ground and both had neshamah blown into them, hence, they both have a spirit (neshamah) and a body (dust of the ground) and both are a living creature (nephesh hayya).
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
I've missed you Paul. Thank you for this excellent contribution to the thread!
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
|
posted
Just to add to this excellent post here are a few thoughts...
In the Old Testament, all these references refer to a body not the spirit...
The Rabbinical understsanding is we have a body and a spirit (ruah) and are a living soul (nephesh). The Hebrew writings also speak of the soul (nephesh)as a possession, and even some animals have nephesh. So the nephesh (which shows a being with a will, intellect, and emotion) which includes and necessitates the possession of a body is never thought of as a being that had no body. The animals capable of choice and affection that have nephesh do not have/or are not thought of as a spirit, only humans and the various orders of angels. One can be a spirit being ith or without a body but never could have been a soul.
Now as for soul sleep, the Lord allows the spirit of Samuel to appear to Saul and the Witch of Endor (but not in his body) which even scares the mess out of her.
Enoch and Elijah never physically die so we must assume even there bodies are still awake...
David says he knows he will see his dead baby son again...
In Lazarus and the Richman neither sleep
Moses (who we know died) appears on the Mount with Elijah (did someone wake him?)...
Isaiah and John enter the throne room before death and see and speak
Revelations speaks of multitudes in Heaven who lost their heads for refusing the mark of the beast...
So as the Spirit through Paul says...
We shall not all sleep...(I believe emphasis is on "not" to clarify this for those confused in his day)...we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye...
Just a few thoughts to add to the mix. Maybe the Lord will use some of them to edify some...if He be willing...
In Him,
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
|
|
MentorsRiddle
Advanced Member
Member # 2108
|
posted
lol, I usually don't comment on Eden and Carols "debates"
But that last comment by Carol was pretty funny.
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Eden
I don't want you to feel left out. OF COURSE you can post kind and encouraging comments for MentorsRiddle and markus! No need to ask first.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Thank you both for your encouraging comments!!! markus, it's very good to hear from you. And MentorsRiddle...you're always so nice! (Hugs graphic)
What about me, Carol Swenson?
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Carol Swenson wrote to Markus quote:
But then I came across the teaching that the soul cannot worship God or communicate with Him, only the spirit can. Yet the Bible gives us many instructions that speak directly to what we are to think, feel, and do. If the soul cannot know God or worship Him, how then can the soul obey Him in the loving manner He desires of us?
Some people have found a way to make this make sense to them. They say that God communicates to the Holy Spirit who communicates to our spirit who communicates to our soul who directs our body. Well maybe, but to me that sounds more like Sci-Fi than Bible.
To me it sounds like you've been reading too much Sci-Fi and not enough Bible.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Carnalists emphasize that man does not have a soul, rather man is a soul. Soul=physical life. (bold added by Eden)
No, carnalist Christians do not emphasize that “man does not have a soul, but rather man is a soul”. It is spiritual Christians who emphasize that “man does not have a soul, but rather that man is a soul”.
And why do spiritual Christians emphasize that? Because the Bible tells them that man does not have a soul but that man is a soul:
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man BECAME a living soul. (Heb., a nephesh hayya, literally a “breather”).
Spiritual Christians note that the Bible says that man BECAME a living soul, not that “man HAD a living soul”. The Hebrew Bible says that “man became a nephesh hayya, a “living breather”.
Carol Swenson continued: quote:
And carnalists quickly point out that both man and animals are "souls": Gen 1:30; Job 12:10
No, carnalist Christians are not quick to point out that both man and animals are "souls", but spiritual Christians are quick to point out that both man and animals are "souls".
And why do spiritual Christians quickly point that out? Because the Bible tells them that both man and animals are "souls":
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Man became a living soul, which in Hebrew is nephesh hayya, which literally means, a “living breather”, or a “living creature” or a “living soul”.
And the Bible uses those same Hebrew words, nephesh hayya, to describe the animals:
Genesis 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind …
Like the man, the animal also became a living creature, which in Hebrew is the same phrase as that used for man, namely, nephesh hayya, which literally means, a “living breather”, or a “living creature”, or a “living soul”.
Only, what is curious, the KJV translators of Victorian England were probably so surprised to see that the Bible called both man and animal a nephesh hayya, that the KJV translators “only had the guts” to call man a “living soul, while the KJV translators could “only bring themselves” to call the animals a “living creature”, but calling the man “living soul”, as if “soul” was a more dignified level than “creature”.
But the spiritual Christians took note that the Bible says that both man and animals were both called a nephesh hayya, a “living breather” or a “living creature” or a “living soul” by the inspired Bible writers.
Because the spiritual Christians believe what the Bible says.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
markus
I'm glad you kept a copy. I would have put it back if you wanted me to.
I grew up believing we were body and soul. When I began doing Bible studies, I came upon the doctrine of body, soul, and spirit. Soul was defined as mind, emotions, personality, and will. That was okay - I know my body and mind are different. But then I came across the teaching that the soul cannot know God or worship Him, only the spirit can. Yet the Bible gives us many instructions that speak directly to what we are to think, feel, and do. If the soul cannot know God or worship Him, how then can the soul obey Him in the loving manner He desires of us?
Some people have found a way to make this make sense to them. They say that God communicates to the Holy Spirit who communicates to our spirit who communicates to our soul who directs our body. Well maybe, but to me that sounds more like Sci-Fi than Bible.
I'm going to move the dichotomy study to its own topic because it's so long. See you there!
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
markus
New Member
Member # 5635
|
posted
Hi Carol, as you can tell i'm new to using forums. I have kept a copy of your definition for my own reference. i will read 'dichotomy'.
I once listened to a speaker, Ian McCormack, who was pronounced dead as a result of a poisonous sting and discirbes his subsequent experiences as an 'encounter with God'. It was a fascinating evening and sort of fits with what you have to say
Posts: 4 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
markus
New Member
Member # 5635
|
posted
Thank you Carol and MentorsRiddle for your welcoming remarks. Hopefully I will make the time to study and join the discussions on these message boards.
Carol, the spirit, soul, body definition, you posted is very helpful thank you.
i wonder do the unsaved get a new body before judgment.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
http://www.bible.ca/su-spirit-soul.htm
The word soul is used in many different ways in the Bible
Carnalists emphasize that man does not have a soul, rather man is a soul. Soul=physical life
Carnalists quickly point out that both man and animals are "souls": Gen 1:30; Job 12:10
How can a corpse of a man be called a "soul" according to their narrow definitions? Num 19:13
Different meanings of soul:
>Physical body: Mt 2:20; Lev 17:11; (Dead: Num 19:13)
>The immaterial invisible part of man separate from the physical life: Mt 10:28
>The basic will: Mt 11:29; Jas 1:8; 4:8- "two-souled", Acts 4:32- "congregation was one soul"
Carnalists do not believe man has any existence or consciousness after death: No life after death!
Carnalists believe Jesus ceased to exist for the three days He was dead!
Carnalists define death as the cessation of all activity, awareness and consciousness.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
In the Old Testament, the concept that when men died, they "slept" with their forefathers, was well-known:
1 Kings 11:43
And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried ...
1 Kings 14:31
And Rehoboam slept with his fathers and was buried ...
1 Kings 15:8
And Abijam slept with his fathers and they buried ...
1 Kings 15:24
And Asa slept with his fathers and was buried ...
1 Kings 16:6
So Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried ...
And so on.
The New Testament is just a continuation of the Old Testament, except that it recognizes that Jesus is the Messiah and that those who believe in Jesus are born again of the Spirit, etc.
But the concepts of the Old Testament continue right into the New Testament.
Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Strong's Concordance shows that regular sleeping and death sleeping uses the same word:
Matthew 28:13 Say, His disciples came by night and stole him away while we slept 2837.
1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept 2837.
2837. koimao; to put to sleep, i.e. (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively, to decease:--(be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
In the Greek Septuagint LXX version of the Hebrew Old Testament, the word "slept" in the phrase, "And Solomon slept", is the same word as that used in the Old Testament: koimao.
The Topic article also said that this "sleep" is different for those who are "in Christ" and those who are not: “Believers and unbelievers do not experience the same afterlife. “
Let's look at when Lazarus was dead and buried in the cave. When Jesus came to the burial cave, He
said "Lazarus sleeps":
John 11:11
... and after that He {Jesus} said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:14
Then said Jesus to them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
But when Lazarus was dead, he was not yet "in Christ" because God did not put the believers "in Christ" until Jesus was on the cross:
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him {God) are you in Christ Jesus ...
The Topic article also said quote:
Why would God allow a believer’s spirit to go to the same place as a non-believer’s?
The Old Testament says that “the spirit returns to God”:
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
The article also said quote:
Sleeping in the New Testament is used for one who is in Christ. It is God' s viewpoint of a temporary suspension of physical activity, yet there is a continuation of the soul, the personality. The Spirit is just as alive outside the body as it is inside the body.
When a person dies, the spirit returns to God, the body decays in the grave. But it says nothing about the soul, except that the Bible says that “man BECAME a living soul” and the Bible does NOT say that man “HAS a living soul”. The idea that “the soul is immortal” has crept into Christianity from Greek Platonism, etc.
What happens instead is that when God formed the body and breathed His spirit into the body, the body became alive and at the meeting place where the spirit and body “joined”, the soul or personality with its will, mind and emotions, are created.
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Heb., nephesh, creature).
Or to put it as the Old Testament does, “man became a living soul” or “man became a living nephesh” or “man became a living creature”. But the animals also became “a living soul” or a “living nephesh” or a “living creature”, just like men. Literally, "nephesh" means "a breather".
That is why when it was said of Jesus that “in Hades, God would not let His Holy One see corruption, that merely means that God would “not let Jesus decay in the grave”.
But even at death, Jesus said, “Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit”. So when God raised Jesus from the dead in the grace (hades), Jesus’s spirit returned from heaven and was rejoined to Jesus’s body and that recreated the soul or personality and Jesus was alive again.
And the same happened to Lazarus when Jesus called him forth from the burial cave. Lazarus’s spirit was rejoined to Lazarus’s body and that recreated the soul or personality and Lazarus was made alive again.
But for all other people who were never resurrected, their body has decayed in the grave (hades) and their spirits have returned for now to God. But when the general resurrection occurs of both the good and the bad, their spirits will be rejoined to their bodies.
So it was said of Jesus:
Psalm 16:10
For You will not leave my soul {Heb., my nephesh} in hell {Heb., sheol, the grave); neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27
Because You will not leave my soul (Grk., psyche, the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew nephesh) in hell {Grk., hades, the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew sheol), neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption.
See corruption, where? In the body, in the creature, in the grave.
Strong’s Concordance
1312. Diaphthora, from 1311; decay:--corruption.
Act 2:27 Because You will not leave my soul (psyche) in hell (hades), neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption 1312.
Acts 2:31 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption 1312.
Acts 13
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption 1312, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
But now note what it says of David:
Acts 13:36
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid to his fathers, and saw corruption 1312.
Acts 13:37
But He {Jesus}, whom God raised again, saw no corruption 1312.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust {the body} return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Heb., nephesh, creature).
Man does not HAVE a soul, man IS a soul, a creature, a nephesh, a psyche, as in:
Genesis 46:26
All the SOULS that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were 66.
Strong's Concordance
Gen 46:26 All the souls 5315 that came with Jacob into Egypt ...
5315 nephesh, from 5314; properly, a breathing creature ...
Acts 7:14
Then sent Joseph and called his father Jacob to him and all his kindred, 75 souls.
Strong's Concordance
Acts 7:14
Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, 75 souls 5590.
5590, psuche, is the Greek equivalent of "nephesh" in Hebrew, "creature", "soul", "person", said of both humans and animals. The concept of an "immaterial soul" is NOT Biblical but has crept into Christianity through Greek Platonism.
Now note what the Topic article said quote:
What does sleep mean? The Bible uses this term when speaking of death in that the physical body, a dead body, looks very similar in this state. It's always referring to the physical body, not the soul.
That is NOT what the Bible teaches.
The Topic article also said quote:
Since the resurrection did not occur before this event, who is Jesus bringing with Him from Heaven? They don't have bodies, the resurrection hasn't occurred, so they are immaterial souls that will be united with their bodies at this resurrection event.
There is no such thing as an "immaterial soul"; that is a Greek Platonic concept that has crept into Christian thinking. Instead, the SPIRIT returns from God and rejoins the BODY that God has reassembled and the RESULT is a "nephesh" or "psyche" or "living creature" or "person" or "breather".
So the Bible says in the Hebrew Old Testament, "my nephesh is hungry", the Greek would say, "my psyche is hungry" and in modern English we simply say, "I am hungry".
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Thank you both for your encouraging comments!!! markus, it's very good to hear from you. And MentorsRiddle...you're always so nice!
marcus, God has complete control over the elements, so whatever state our bodies are in at the resurrection, we will be given new glorified bodies. From what I understand, we will look like ourselves, except we'll be perfect - perfect weight, perfect age, no handicaps - PERFECT!
The writer of this article uses soul and spirit interchangeably, as many others do, and as the Bible does (Luke 1:46-47).
Here's a link to an interesting and colorful study on this topic. It has charts that don't copy and paste well on a BBS, so I'll just offer the link.
The Nature Of Man
http://www.bible.ca/su-spirit-soul.htm
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
MentorsRiddle
Advanced Member
Member # 2108
|
posted
quote:
very interesting reading.thank you. can i be ignorant and sum up with a desire to be corrected? i die, my spirit/soul goes to be with the Lord (halellejuah), my physical body gets cremated then at the final trumpet i am re-united with the material that made up my physical body which is made new and eternal? or just given a new body?
Markus, there was once a saying I heard that oes like this:
A man who asks a question is ignorant for a moment - but the man who asks no questions is ignorant for a lifetime.
There are no ignorant questions concerning God.
As for what happens with the bodies: are we given a new one, or if our old one is transformed we do not know.
But you are basically right.
There is a difference between the Soul and the Spirit.
You can google: difference between the soul and spirit and learn much more than I could ever tell.
Welcome to the boards, I hope you stay, get involved with some conversations and enjoy.
God-Bless,
Matt
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
markus
New Member
Member # 5635
|
posted
very interesting reading.thank you. can i be ignorant and sum up with a desire to be corrected? i die, my spirit/soul goes to be with the Lord (halellejuah), my physical body gets cremated then at the final trumpet i am re-united with the material that made up my physical body which is made new and eternal? or just given a new body?
Posts: 4 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
MentorsRiddle
Advanced Member
Member # 2108
|
posted
Carol,
This was one of the best bible studies I have ever read.
It really helped me to solidify my understandings on what happens when we die.
I thought this was the way things happened, but never had all the scriptures and studies in one place before piece it all together.
Thank you so much for your time in posting and your devotion to truth.
God-bless,
Matt
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
 Soul Sleep
THERE ARE NUMEROUS PASSAGES THAT TEACH THAT HUMANS ARE CONSCIOUS AFTER THEIR DEATH
We need to understand that there are a number of mysteries in the Bible that were not fully revealed until Christ came. This doctrine comes under that heading. It was concealed in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament. What most people do is look to the Old Testament Scriptures to validate this teaching, such as Eccl. 9:5-6, "For the living know they shall die: but the dead know not any thing," or Psalm 146:4, "His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish". Or Psalm 115:17, "The dead do not praise the Lord, nor any who go down into silence" or Psalm 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of Thee; in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?” And of course, there is Ezek. 18:4, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” From these Scriptures and many others, the Seventh Day Adventists and other groups make their airtight case that death is a peaceful sleep for the soul. Well, actually, it's not so airtight; it's more like Swiss cheese.
When someone does a study on this or any other subject, they need to take all the body of literature and weigh it out and see which covenant these things were spoken under. Are they a metaphor, is it a hyperbole, or is it poetic? To make biblical sense out of this serious issue, we need to look at all the literature of this particular subject.
This is not just a spirit sleeping, waiting for the resurrection that is being promoted. This doctrine actually affects other crucial doctrines, such as eternal punishment and eternal life.
The main argument for those who promote soul-sleep is this: the word ‘sleeping’ is for those who die, that it is unconsciousness (1 Thess.4:13-14, 1 Cor. 15:20,51). Some go so far as to say that one's eternal destiny is determined not at death, but later at the final judgment. And some will even claim that we can still repent, even in the afterlife.
So, let's look at the word sleep, because that's what's crucial here. What does sleep mean? The Bible uses this term when speaking of death in that the physical body, a dead body, looks very similar in this state. It's always referring to the physical body, not the soul. It is the appearance of the body that is sleeping; no one is able to see the spirit. It is also a term used exclusively for believers. The term sleeping, in reference to death, is not used for unbelievers. I find that to be crucial in understanding what the Bible is trying to portray to us when it says that the dead in Christ are sleeping.
Believers and unbelievers do not experience the same afterlife.
Why would God allow a believer’s spirit to go to the same place as a non-believer’s? He didn’t do this before the resurrection of Christ, (in Lk.16 Lazarus and the rich man were separated after death). Now we are told paradise is in heaven and we are to be with the Lord. So it is illogical, not to mention unbiblical, to think that we are to all sleep in the grave until a resurrection. What sleeps is the body; what stays alive is man’s spirit that was created in God’s likeness and contains the qualities that God gave man to be similar to Himself.
Sleeping in the New Testament is used for one who is in Christ. It is God's viewpoint of a temporary suspension of physical activity, yet there is a continuation of the soul, the personality. The Spirit is just as alive outside the body as it is inside the body.
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
The word for sleep here is not the same as one sleeping in everyday use. Yashen ( from 3462); sleepy: KJV-- asleep, (one out of) sleep, slept.
In Jer 31:26 After this I awoke and looked around, and my sleep was sweet to me.
Also in Dn.2:1, shenah, corresponding to 8142.
One is hard pressed to make a case for soul sleep even from the Old Testament. Certainly it cannot be done from the New Testament that reveals much more on man’s state after he dies.
Does the believer wake up in the resurrection? Is he put back into an immortal physical body? Yes, he is, yet we never see an example of a spirit resurrected because it does not die like the body. The term resurrection only applies to the body.
The Bible is very clear that the spirit can live outside the body. Angels can and do function outside a body, and yet they can also function within a body. We see they can possess people, and actually there can be more than one spirit or fallen angel inside a body. Although this alone does not make a strong case for a continuation of an afterlife, it does show that a spirit can operate and function outside the body.
There are numerous passages that teach that humans are conscious after their death, so let's look at a few. Matt. 17:1-8 and Luke 9:28-36 are just a few of the passages on the transfiguration where we find Moses and Elijah appearing on the Mount with Jesus and a few of His disciples. Elijah was taken alive while Moses died a physical death, yet Moses is consciously alive just like Elijah. Moses couldn't have been resurrected because Christ is to be the Firstfruits of the resurrection and He had not risen yet. While Christ raised some from the dead, they were people that recently died, not Old Testament saints dead for hundred of years. They were raised to life on earth by Jesus only to die again later. But, here is someone who has been dead for 1,500 years, so it isn't Moses' decomposed body brought back out of the ground as a resurrection. This was a spiritual appearance.
Jesus taught that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the living, not of the dead; referring to Exodus 3:5, I am who I am, insinuating that all these prophets were still living. This silenced the Sadducees who challenged Him on this matter because they did not believe in an afterlife. So we have Moses here, appearing in spirit. That is the only plausible explanation because, again, Jesus had to be the first body resurrected to eternal life in that way.
Paul himself relates a story in the New Testament in 2 Cor. 12:1-4 in which, fourteen years before, he was caught up to the third heaven. This is the place where God dwells. He calls this place Paradise, and the experience and the things that he heard awed him, but he wasn't sure if this occurred in his body or without his body, so he wasn't sure if he was alive or dead when this event occurred. Now obviously, his corruptible body could not enter heaven since all must go through transformation to be able to function there. Mortal flesh is unable to enter heaven, so there has to be some kind of transformation to enter.
What happens to believers, according to the Bible, at death? This is the question we're pondering as far as soul-sleep. Do we just rest in the ground like our body? What exactly happens to our body, and what exactly happens to our soul? The Bible speaks about a material and immaterial part of man. We find in Gen. 3:19 our bodies are made of the earth and they return to the earth. In Phil. 1:23-24, Paul states that he desired to depart to be with Christ, which is far better. Now, Christ is in heaven, He's not in the ground, so if this was soul-sleep, he being with Christ, Christ would have to be in the ground. Paul goes on to say, nevertheless, to be in the flesh is more needful, so he wanted to stay to help out the saints in the church and fulfill his ministry.
We also find in 2 Peter 1:13, Peter talks about putting off his tabernacle, or tent, calling it a temporary dwelling place. James 2:26 tells us that the body without the spirit is dead. He doesn't say the spirit also dies, he says the body without the spirit dies. In Gen. 35:18, speaking of Rachel, it tells us her soul was departing and she died. The spirit exists and gives us life, when it leaves the body dies. The body dies and goes back into the ground, yet the spirit continues on with a life of its own.
Eccl. 12: 6-7 describes in poetry the shattering of life when the dust returns to earth, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Yet earlier, in verse 5, he writes that a man goes to his eternal home and mourners go about the streets. So Solomon is speaking about those who turn to God as he started off this chapter, saying to remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before difficult days come. And then he speaks about our eternal home. If it is sleep in the grave, as people are claiming, then that means we are going to sleep in the grave, the ground, forever. They are using this scripture in a way that it's an eternal home in the ground and we are never to be raised up. Of course, that is not what it means.
One of the scriptures they use is Eccl. 9:5, "the dead know nothing." Now this is true, since it is the body that dies, that part of the man that dies and goes into the ground knows nothing. But there is a part of man that flies away at death and returns to God who gave it, Psalm 90:10. So, those who believe go to rest in Christ. It couldn't mean only our breath since that would not go to God but to the atmosphere.
Many of the Old Testament Scriptures, rather than showing a state of unconsciousness of the soul, are really languages of appearance, that after death they had the inability to continue the process that was normal while they were here on earth in their bodies. So it is a language of appearance as man's perspective is looking at the body functions. Yet, in Heb. 9:27, we find after death the judgment. In other words, one goes either to Heaven or to Hades, and it is determined at death, not afterwards. So we go to rewards and rest, or to punishment and eternal separation. Death is not a cessation of existence, but a separation of existence. We have choices to make now that will affect our eternal destiny. Jesus knew this very well and He warned of it constantly.
Now, what of the Scripture in 1 Tim. 6:16 speaking of God who alone has immortality? The Scripture applies mortality and immortality to one's bodily condition. It is the body that is mortal, never the soul, or spirit. For example, Paul writes in 1 Cor. 15: “this mortal will put on immortality”, speaking of the resurrection of our bodies, not our spirits. Likewise, in 1 Tim. 6:16, he's speaking of Jesus as the immortal God/man. Spirit, by its own nature, is a deathless entity. God is spirit, and so are angels. God is spirit and fashioned man in the image of Himself, and while God has always existed, no beginning or end, He has given mankind a limited similarity to Himself of something that lives on. The body is described as mortal but the soul is never described in these terms. Paul states this mortal must put on immortality (1 Cor.15:53). He is speaking of a resurrected body just as it was said in 2 Pt.1:13, to put off this tent as a temporary dwelling. In. Rom. 6:9: "Knowing that Christ having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.” Therefore 1 Tim.6:16 means He alone has immortality as His nature, being the first fruit raised in the resurrection.
In our human experience our spirit never feels old. No matter how old the body gets, our spirit inside does not feel the same age. If one becomes an invalid it doesn’t affect their spirit; their spirit does not also become an invalid. It is essentially unaffected by the outer person; it still is free. Science tells us our body renews all of its cells every 7 years. If we were only our body we would have to relearn everything again because all of our knowledge would be contained in the physical aspect of man. But this again is not so. The Bible shows that people who died are alive in Heaven, remembering and recognizing others.
The New Testament teaches Spirit existence after death as doctrine. James says the body without the spirit is dead, not the spirit itself. For example, in Rev. 6:9-10, we see souls who have been slain that are under the alter of God, asking the Lord to avenge them. We find they are conscious and they are speaking. The soul and personality of each one of us lives on. Jesus taught in Matt. 10:28, “Fear not those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” The Greek word for destruction, aplollumi, has numerous meanings. We have to look at the context it's put in. It can mean perish, lost, destroy, to render useless, or to give over to eternal misery, and I believe that is the correct rendition when we look at where it’s saying the soul will be in the afterlife of those who disobey the Gospel.
In Matt. 25:46 there are those in the judgment who go into everlasting punishment and those who go into everlasting life. The same Greek word means eternal and forever. If there is no eternal punishment, then the same word that is applied for eternal life means there is no eternal life either. So the Greek, appropriated to both these places that destined for those who either believe or not believe, means eternal. Likewise in Luke 16, the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus always used real-life situations to illustrate His teachings. Jesus does not teach fictitious stories and it's not a parable, in my opinion, because He actually names a person, which He did not do in parables.
There are living conditions in the afterlife of torment and peace. The New Testament has revealed what was unclear in the Old Testament writings. 2 Cor. 4:16,18 tells us "though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. . . .While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." Now here Paul applies the outer man to the temporal and the tabernacle we live in, and the inner man to the eternal. In the following verse he states, "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens". Here is the scripture that is often neglected and, put in context, we find it fully elaborating on the continual existence of man in 2 Cor. 5:1-8. He sums it all up in verse 8 saying, “we are always confident knowing that while we are home in the body we are absent from the Lord”, and he goes on to say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When all of our earthly tent is dissolved, we can be assured that we will be in the presence of the One we serve and we love here on earth. This is the Scripture that is consistently neglected by those who promote soul-sleep. In Phil.1:23, Paul states to be with Christ is far better. This would be impossible if we go to sleep in the ground with the body.
Likewise in 1 Thess. 4:13-17, we are told that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. Then he states, those who are alive will not precede those who have fallen asleep. The Lord from Heaven will come down with a trumpet call and the dead in Christ will rise first. And then those who are alive will be caught up together with them in the air with the Lord forever.
Since the resurrection did not occur before this event, who is Jesus bringing with Him from Heaven? They don't have bodies, the resurrection hasn't occurred, so they are immaterial souls that will be united with their bodies at this resurrection event. They existed fellowshipping with the Lord in Heaven. Jude says the Lord comes with ten thousand of His saints. Paul describes this event in 1 Cor. 15:51, “Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed.” When? At the last trump. The dead are raised incorruptible, and then he goes on to describe that mortal will put on immortality. So he's talking about our bodies. Then death, he states, is swallowed up in victory.
Rom. 8:11 says, “But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who dwells in you.”
There is a day of uniting with those who fell asleep in Christ, with their bodies to be transformed and alive forever, and the hope of the believer is that whether we live or die, we are to be with the Lord. It is stated in the Scriptures, “I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, death, nor any other created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38)
If you're in Christ be persuaded, be encouraged, we have assurance. Yet, there are many other people all around us who don't have this assurance and I hope that we will be the ones to bring the good news to them. We should not sorrow as the world does (1 Thess.4:16-18).
http://www.letusreason.org/Doct15.htm
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
