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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
 -

talk about cults!

Berean Bible Society

This Web site is home of the Berean Searchlight, the foremost ultradispensationalist journal since 1940.

This group was founded by Cornelius Stam and J. C. O'Hair, two Chicago-area ultradispensationalists whose ministries peaked in the '40s and '50s respectively. Their distinctive teaching is that the apostle Paul inaugurated a new dispensation of grace, unveiling a brand-new gospel and (according to some) a whole new way of salvation.

Paul's teaching is thus set against the rest of the New Testament and interpreted in a way that renders most of Jesus' teaching utterly irrelevant to the present age.

Thus the Word of God is mangled in the name of Bereanism. Though no longer the force it was in the mid-20th century, this organization has stayed alive by adopting the cultish strategy of targeting untaught lay people to whom this bizarre hermeneutical approach (buttressed with selective proof-texting) appears deep and sophisticated.

BEWARE OF HYPER DISPENSATIONALISM

“Hyper-dispensationalism” is characterized by making a sharp division between the ministry of Christ and that of the Apostles, and of further dividing Paul’s teaching from that of Peter and the other apostles. Some of the well-known teachers of hyper- or ultra-dispensationalism are E.W. Bullinger, Cornelius Stam, J.C. O’Hair, Charles Welch, Otis Sellers, A.E. Knoch, and Charles Baker. There are many varieties of hyper-dispensationalism, but the following are some of the characteristics:

(1) The four Gospels are entirely Jewish and contain no direct teaching for the churches. Yet, the writer of Hebrews said that the same gospel of salvation that was preached by the apostles was preached by Christ (Heb. 2:3-4). Though we know that Christ presented Himself to the Jewish nation and we do understand that there are differences between the gospels and the epistles, yet in Hebrews 2 we do not see a sharp delineation between the gospel preached by Christ and that preached by the apostles who followed. In fact, the Gospel of John presents exactly the same gospel as that preached by Paul. Further, 1 Timothy 6:3 shows that Christ spoke directly to the church age.

(2) The book of Acts is also largely Jewish. Hyper-dispensationalists commonly believe that after Christ was rejected by Israel in the Gospels, that they were given a second chance to receive the kingdom in the first part of the book of Acts. Thus, they teach that there are two different churches viewed in the book of Acts, and the true Pauline church only started after Acts 9, 13, or 28. The church mentioned in the first part of Acts allegedly refers to a different church than that of Paul’s prison epistles. The earlier “church” in Acts is simply an aspect of the kingdom preached in the Gospels. Most of the book of Acts is therefore discounted as a guideline for the churches today. Yet, at the very end of the book of Acts we still find Paul preaching about the kingdom (Acts 28:23). In fact, he was still preaching about it in his epistles! (2 Thess. 1:5; 2 Tim. 4:1). While we can see an obvious transition in the book of Acts, and not everything in Acts continues to be in effect in the churches today (e.g., tongues speaking and apostolic sign gifts) this does not mean that there are different gospels and different churches in various parts of Acts. The book of Acts is a book about and for the churches. The pattern of the first church as described in Acts 2 is the pattern for the churches throughout the age, except for the temporary and unique aspects pertaining to the coming of the Holy Spirit and the apostolic miracles.

(3) The mysteries given to Paul are a different revelation from that given to Peter and the other Apostles, and only Paul’s writings are directly for the church today. The other epistles, such as Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and the epistles of John are not for us today in a direct sense. Yet, Paul himself said that the church is built upon the “apostleS” plural and not merely upon himself (Eph. 2:20) and the mysteries were “revealed unto his holy apostleS and prophetS” (Eph. 3:5) and not to him alone. Peter also referred to the writings of Paul and made no distinction between Paul’s teaching and the teaching of the other apostles (2 Pet. 3:1-2, 15-16). Peter said Paul wrote to the same people and preached the same message. Though we know that Paul was the special apostle of the Gentiles and he was given unique revelations about the church as the body of Christ, his revelations in no way contradict the revelations given in the General Epistles (Hebrews - Jude).

(4) The gospel preached by Peter in the early part of the book of Acts is different from the gospel preached by Paul. Yet, there is actually no difference between the gospel preached by Peter and that which Paul preached. Peter preached salvation through the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:2), salvation by God’s free mercy (1 Peter 1:3), the new birth (1 Peter 1:3), eternal security because of the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet. 1:3-4). Acts 15 plainly states that all of the apostles, including Peter and Paul, agreed on the gospel. Paul plainly said in 1 Cor. 15:11-14 that they all preached the same gospel. Even in Acts 2, Peter was preaching the gospel of the grace of Christ rather than a “kingdom gospel.” He preached Christ -- His crucifixion (Acts 2:23), resurrection (Acts 2:24-32), ascension and Lordship (Acts 2:33-36). He preached that the people should repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). This is not a “kingdom gospel.” Further, Paul states in Galatians 1, that anyone who preached a different gospel was cursed. If Peter were truly preaching a different gospel in those days, he would have fallen under this curse.

(5) Baptism and the Lord’s Supper were given to Paul before he received the church age mysteries; thus they are not for the churches today. Hyper-dispensationalists differ on this point. Some accept both baptism and the Lord’s Supper; some reject water baptism and the Lord’s Supper altogether; while others reject only baptism and keep the Lord’s Supper.

(6) According to hyper-dispensationalism there are different ways of salvation in the Old Testament and during the Tribulation. Peter Ruckman, for example, teaches that men were saved by faith plus works in the Old Testament and that they will be saved by faith plus works in the Tribulation and by works alone in the Millennium. In Millions Disappear: Fact or Fiction? Ruckman says: “If the Lord comes and you remain behind, then start working like a madman to get to heaven, because you’re going to have to. ... You must keep the Ten Commandments (all of them, Ecclesiastes 12:13), keep the Golden Rule (1 John 3:10), give your money to the poor, get baptized, take up your cross, hold out to the end of the Tribulation, wait for Jesus Christ to show up at the Battle of Armageddon, and be prepared to die for what you believe. In the Tribulation you cannot be saved by grace alone, like you could before the Rapture.” In fact, Romans 4:1-8 plainly states that Abraham before the law and David under the law were saved by faith without works. This is the only plan of salvation God ever has had and ever will have--salvation by grace alone through faith alone based upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ alone. The Old Testament saints did not know what the New Testament saint knows, but Romans 4 makes it plain that they were saved by faith without works. Like Abraham, they believed God and it was counted unto them for righteousness. Those who are saved in the Tribulation will also be saved through faith in God’s Word and by the blood of Jesus Christ and through this alone (Rev. 7:14).

Harry A. Ironside wrote a helpful little booklet about this problem called “Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: Ultra-Dispensationalism Examined in the Light of Holy Scripture.” He deals largely with the error of Bullingerism. This is available on the Internet at....

http://www.biblelineministries.org/onlinebooks/wrongly-dividing-the-word-of-truth/

this info found at...

http://www.wayoflife.org/files/ff92e8f95e2e0887d2468156498ba416-163.html
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Not true.

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1011392439.html
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
yes true Wildb has many time posted articles stating facts mentioned by David Cloud's article......

one very wrong teaching is...there are different ways of salvation in the Old Testament !

there is only one way of salvation taught in scripture....Faith in the Blood

Old Testament Saints looked forward to the Messiah...

New Testament Saints look back at the Messiah....
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
becauseHElives

Did you read the link I provided? Even if you just scan over it you'll see that the Berean Bible Society was mistakenly lumped together with others who teach ultradispensationalism, but they don't teach that themselves.

You said, "one very wrong teaching is...there are different ways of salvation in the Old Testament."

This is what Stam says:

quote:
Now we believe that the principles of God are eternal and unchanging. They could not change. God could not change His standards; men have always been, and men always will be, saved only by grace through faith, essentially, and could only be saved on the basis of the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. The sacrifices that were demanded for atonement in Old Testament times did not in themselves save: "It is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin." They served only as an expression of the faith of the individuals who brought them. CORNELIUS R. STAM:

Anyway, WildB is the Stam guy so he should be the one to defend Stam.

Bye
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Jesus gave the command to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth........and to teach the new disciples to observe the things that He has taught.

We have a doctrine delivered to us by the Son of God. The apostle Paul does not bring another brand new doctrine that supersedes the doctrine of Jesus.

I do not know how this false teaching came about..........but I could only speculate that it might be one of these reasons...............

1. Dispensationalists divide and sub-divide scripture so much.

or

2. The thinking that there must be some contradiction between Jesus teachings in the gospels and Pauls teachings on grace

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
quote:
Did you read the link I provided?
yes Carol I read it before you posted it...I read it when I was researching J. C. O'Hara...I had never heard of Him till last night. I've been reading all night.

you and others have labeled me a cult....I am not a cult ,neither is what I believe cultist...

I believe Yahweh is the same yesterday, today, forever....

I believe what was important to Yahweh in the Old Testament is important in the New Testament....

I believe Paul preached the same gospel message as Peter, John, James, Matthew, Mark, Luke.....

I believe The Commandments of Yahweh have not changed or been done away with, it is only that they are no longer on stone tablets now, they are written on the heart by the Holy Spirit....

I believe walking after the Spirit and obeying the Commandment from the heart are the same thing....

I believe not being under The Law does not make me free to disobey the Law.....

I believe the Sabbath has not been changed to Sunday, I believe The Sabbath is still a day to remember is set apart by Yahweh and called Holy but I also do not believe keeping The Sabbath adds anything to salvation.....
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
amen Daniel
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
you and others have labeled me a cult....I am not a cult ,neither is what I believe cultist...


I have NEVER labeled you a cult! Where did you get that idea?

I said Armstrongism is a cult.

quote:
I believe walking after the Spirit and obeying the Commandment from the heart are the same thing....
Walking in the Spirit is more than obeying the Law.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
is this true my brother:

for i looked up and it was stated:


quote:
The Berean Bible Society, sometimes called the Grace Movement, is a hyper-dispensational FALSE/CULTIC BELIEF system that was started by Pastor Ohair in Chicago and Pastor Baker as author.

Not believing in "minor" doctrines (like hell, baptism, etc) this group simply states that all of the Bible other than a few books of Paul (prison epistles, pastoral epistles) is NOT for us today. It redefines the Bible, the Gospel, Baptism, Kingdom etc)

Do NOT confuse this cult with the Berean Fellowship denomination that is mostly "baptistic" and I know many of the pastors personally. Their doctrinal statement would be identical to many Baptist churches.

[The use of "heresy" or "cult" is very limited on the BB so we don't call each other names like other boards! But like the Adventist, Mormons, Millennial Exclusions, etc, we do list cultic beliefs and label them as 100% in error.]
__________________
Dr Bob Griffin
"Jesus knows me, this I love"


http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=67372

im gonna further check this out...


Is Mr Stam from the berean bible soc.?

i know o'hair is..
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
A Theological Introduction to Hyper-Dispensationalism
By jaminhubner on Jul 15, 2010 in Hyper-Dispensationalism

Is Hyper-Dispensationalism a “heresy”? Is it a “false teaching”? Or, is it just a “denomination,” “sect,” or a “cult”?

Hyper-dispensationalists do not outright deny the core doctrines of orthodox Christianity. They believe in the deity of Christ, the Trinity, justification by faith alone, etc. They also worship in the same type of setting as a traditional evangelical church. In that very general sense, Hyper-Dispensationalism is more properly labeled a “denomination” than a “sect” or “cult.” It is, to a degree, a small branch of the larger Christian tree.

However, Hyper-Dispensationalism appears, functions, and exists very much like a traditional “cult” or “sect.” These two terms might seem a bit strong. But, Hyper-Dispensationalism has strong resemblances with what we might call a “cult,” such as having its own vocabulary, authoritative writings, founding leaders/prophets, history, development, etc.

The historian Ruth Tucker defines the term cult in Another Gospel:

A “cult” is a religious group that has a “prophet”-founder called of god to give a special message not found in the Bible itself, often apocalyptic in nature and often set forth in ‘inspired’ writings. In deference to this charismatic figure or these ‘inspired’ writings, the style of leadership is authoritarian and there is frequently an exclusivistic outlook, supported by a legalistic lifestyle and persecution mentality.[1]

She goes on to offer other definitions, such as the definition by Jim Sire:

[A cult is] any religious movement that is organizationally distinct and has doctrines and/or practices that contradict those of the Scriptures as interpreted by traditional Christianity as represented by the major Catholic and Protestant denominations, and as expressed in such statements as the Apostle’s creed.[2]

Hyper-Dispensationalism fits virtually all the criteria of a cult, with the exception of having “inspired writings.” Its founder can be directed either towards John Nelson Darby (founder of Dispensationalism, 1840s-50s) or Cornelius R. Stam (founder of Hyper-Dispensationalism, 1930s-40s), both of whom believe their message was concealed from the church until their lifetime. In that sense, they could be properly labeled “prophets.”

Furthermore, Hyper-Dispensationalism’s doctrines contradict the Scriptures as interpreted by the historic church. Hyper-Dispensationalism teaches that there are two gospels in the New Testament, that Jesus and Peter taught works-righteous salvation, that all forms of water baptism are unnecessary and “dangerous,” that the Great Commission in Matthew’s gospel is inapplicable for anyone today, and that the teaching in Paul’s epistles are the only relevant sources for doctrine in the church.

Their reasoning goes as follows:

1.The Bible is divided up into dispensations.[3] Therefore…
1.Paul introduces a completely new gospel (the “mystery” was revealed to him only) with the inauguration of the Dispensation of Grace.[4] Therefore…
1.i. There are “two gospels” in the New Testament[5]; Peter and Jesus taught works-righteous salvation while Paul taught grace.[6] Therefore…
2.ii. Only Paul’s epistles are the basis for doctrine today,[7] and people are not saved by the teachings of Jesus or Peter, but exclusively by the gospel of Paul.[8]
2.There is no “Great Commission” in Matthew’s gospel.[9]
3.Water baptism is no longer necessary. In fact, it’s “dangerous.”[10]
This is why I said Hyper-Dispensationalism is a branch of Christianity to a degree. It has a lot of the “right stuff,” but it also has a lot of the wrong stuff.

Hyper-Dispensationalism also fits the characteristics of a “sect,” which Ernst Troeltsch defines as,

…a religious group which is gathered or called out of some natural organic group or state church on positively anticonformist grounds, sometimes by a charismatic leader, but as often by some principle of greater strictness, more single-minded dedication, or more intense abnegation of the world and its attractions. Often, even usually, the sect has as its main principle some aspect of the orthodox faith which is being lost or neglected.[11]

Hyper-Dispensationalism believes that the aspect of the orthodox faith that has been neglected is the distinctiveness of the Apostle Paul. As Cornelius Stam said,

It was the teachings of such men as Ironside, [Arno C.] Gaebelein, [Lewis Sperry] Chafer, Haldeman, Pettingill, Newell, Ottman, and Gray that led us to the position we now hold. We saw that their dispensationalism, as a system of interpretation, was sound, but were increasingly convinced that their failure to see the absolute distinctiveness of Paul’s apostleship lay at the root of their many doctrinal differences.[12]

In many ways, Hyper-Dispensationalism is consistent Dispensationalism. Darby effectively replaced Gods’ covenants (i.e covenant with Adam) with his dispensations (i.e. “dispensation of innocence”). But only hyper-dispensationalists fully carry out the implications.

In conclusion, it appears that Hyper-Dispensationalism has attributes of both a cult and a sect, and due to its adherence to some of the classic doctrines of orthodoxy and evangelical form of worship, it also appears as a denomination. Hyper-Dispensationalism is truly a mix of all of these categories, which is partly why it is so difficult to understand and therefore difficult to critique.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] Ruther Tucker. Another Gospel: Cults, Alternative Religions, and the New Age Movement (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1989), 16.

[2] Ibid.

[3] Joel Finck. The Mystery: The Key to the Bible (Rapid City: Grace Bible Church Publication, 1997), 6-8; Cornelius R. Stam, Things That Differ: The Fundamentals of Dispensationalism (Nappanee: Evangel Press, 1996), 11.

[4] Finck, The Mystery, 23. See also, Cornelius Stam. “Paul, the Apostle of Grace.” August/September, 2002.

[5] Joel Finck. Common Questions About the Grace Message (Parsons Publishing Company, 2002), 17, 57-59. See also chapter 2 of Lordship Salvation (Grace Bible Church, 1998), entitled “Two Gospels.”

[6] Finck, Common Questions, 57.

[7] Robert Brock. “Seven Basic Bible Facts Every Christian Should Know and Believe.” http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html. “…This is God’s only message for the lost in this present age. We are to follow Paul as he followed Christ (I Cor. 11:1). In his writings ALONE do we find the doctrine, position, walk, and destiny of the Christian.”

[8] Finck, The Mystery, 24-25.

[9] Finck, Common Questions, 45-46. See also the chapter entitled “The So-Called Great Commission” in Cornelius Stam’s Things That Differ.

[10] Finck, Common Questions, 28-38.

[11] Tucker, Another Gospel, 20.

[12] See Cornelius R. Stam. The Controversy (Gorr Press, 1962), 275.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Brother becausehelives states:

quote:
talk about cults!

Berean Bible Society

This Web site is home of the Berean Searchlight, the foremost ultradispensationalist journal since 1940.

This group was founded by Cornelius Stam and J. C. O'Hair, two Chicago-area ultradispensationalists whose ministries peaked in the '40s and '50s respectively. Their distinctive teaching is that the apostle Paul inaugurated a new dispensation of grace, unveiling a brand-new gospel and (according to some) a whole new way of salvation.

Paul's teaching is thus set against the rest of the New Testament and interpreted in a way that renders most of Jesus' teaching utterly irrelevant to the present age.

Thus the Word of God is mangled in the name of Bereanism. Though no longer the force it was in the mid-20th century, this organization has stayed alive by adopting the cultish strategy of targeting untaught lay people to whom this bizarre hermeneutical approach (buttressed with selective proof-texting) appears deep and sophisticated.

BEWARE OF HYPER DISPENSATIONALISM

“Hyper-dispensationalism” is characterized by making a sharp division between the ministry of Christ and that of the Apostles, and of further dividing Paul’s teaching from that of Peter and the other apostles. Some of the well-known teachers of hyper- or ultra-dispensationalism are E.W. Bullinger, Cornelius Stam, J.C. O’Hair, Charles Welch, Otis Sellers, A.E. Knoch, and Charles Baker. There are many varieties of hyper-dispensationalism, but the following are some of the characteristics:


Looks like your right Brother Dale..
Berean Society is a cult..

False teachings by C. Stam, and JC O'Hair;

more i study them the worse it gets, and the more it looks like a CULT!


[thumbsup2]

[type]


[thumbsup2]
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
But, Carol, you don't get it. Every Preacher is a false Gospel Preacher, according to Barry and BecauseHeLives, who doesn't preach that you have to go to Church on Saturday and keep the Old Testament Laws. [Big Grin] Paul would be on their case if he were alive today for preaching the same false Gospel that some of the Christian Jews did in His day: becoming Jews first and then Christians.
betty
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
I decided to stay out of this. This is WildB's opportunity to defend his beliefs.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
yes thats if worms have knees!

BRING THEM 2 me!

Galatians 6:1 - If a man is overtaken in a fault, those who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of meekness.

Meekness does not mean we do not show others they are wrong. We are commanded to show them their error in meekness.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 - In meekness correct those who oppose themselves so they can recover themselves from the snare of the Devil.

People are simply mistaken if they think a meek person will never tell others they are wrong. Meekness leads us to tell others they are wrong - the same verses that say to be meek, also command us to correct others.

There is plenty of good information on the Berean Bible Society website to use to refute their mistakes.

Name calling and insults will only prove an un-Christian character.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
WILDB STATES:

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by barrykind:
Brother becausehelives states:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
talk about cults!

Berean Bible Society

This Web site is home of the Berean Searchlight, the foremost ultradispensationalist journal since 1940.

This group was founded by Cornelius Stam and J. C. O'Hair, two Chicago-area ultradispensationalists whose ministries peaked in the '40s and '50s respectively. Their distinctive teaching is that the apostle Paul inaugurated a new dispensation of grace, unveiling a brand-new gospel and (according to some) a whole new way of salvation.

Paul's teaching is thus set against the rest of the New Testament and interpreted in a way that renders most of Jesus' teaching utterly irrelevant to the present age.

Thus the Word of God is mangled in the name of Bereanism. Though no longer the force it was in the mid-20th century, this organization has stayed alive by adopting the cultish strategy of targeting untaught lay people to whom this bizarre hermeneutical approach (buttressed with selective proof-texting) appears deep and sophisticated.

BEWARE OF HYPER DISPENSATIONALISM

“Hyper-dispensationalism” is characterized by making a sharp division between the ministry of Christ and that of the Apostles, and of further dividing Paul’s teaching from that of Peter and the other apostles. Some of the well-known teachers of hyper- or ultra-dispensationalism are E.W. Bullinger, Cornelius Stam, J.C. O’Hair, Charles Welch, Otis Sellers, A.E. Knoch, and Charles Baker. There are many varieties of hyper-dispensationalism, but the following are some of the characteristics:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks like your right Brother Dale..
Berean Society is a cult..

False teachings by C. Stam, and JC O'Hair;

more i study them the worse it gets, and the more it looks like a CULT!








--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bite me!

More FALSE WITNESSING

--------------------

wildb's above quote to B... Me; is unacceptable by bbs rules...it is offensive and shows ones heart..
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
sister Betty states:


quote:
But, Carol, you don't get it. Every Preacher is a false Gospel Preacher, according to Barry and BecauseHeLives, who doesn't preach that you have to go to Church on Saturday and keep the Old Testament Laws. Paul would be on their case if he were alive today for preaching the same false Gospel that some of the Christian Jews did in His day: becoming Jews first and then Christians.
betty


This is an absured statement and false. i do not believe because one does not go to church on Saturday is a "false preacher" no not at all. Thats simply not true at all Betty, nor have i ever said that.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
quote:
Every Preacher is a false Gospel Preacher who doesn't preach that you have to go to Church on Saturday and keep the Old Testament Laws.
Betty, I have never said anyone has to go to Church on Saturday to be saved or for any another reason ...

first off no one goes to Church ...you are the Church if you are saved...

second you can be saved and never enter a meeting where the members of the body meet....you will have a great desire to be with other members of the body but that don't save you....

and about the Law , I have said it over and over repeatedly ...."The Law is now written on the hearts of true believers , if it is not they can not be saved....if it is written on your heart you are obeying the Law from the heart by walking after the Spirit but we are still in this temples of flesh and sometimes we fail but then the Holy Spirit is there to convict us to repent ...now this is where an individual can get in trouble and grieve the Spirit because we are still free souls to repent or resit repenting....

my disagreement is with anyone that says the Sabbath is now Sunday....The Sabbath is like Yahweh it is the same yesterday today forever....

same with Yahweh's Law, the scriptures by inspiration of the Holy Spirit The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

The Law like Yahweh is perfect , the problem was not the Law but the heart of men and women....so in salvation Yahweh does heart surgery and engrafts the Law into the heart....now making a new creature , one that loves Yahweh and Yahweh's Law and has the desire and ability to obey.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
wildb's above quote to B... Me; is unacceptable by bbs rules...it is offensive and shows ones heart..
Flooding the entire forum with your ENOUGH SAID is just as offensive.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
What does the Berean Bible Society believe?
An excellent question! Here is a copy of our doctrinal statement:


WE BELIEVE:
1) The verbal inspiration and plenary authority of the BIBLE in its original writings.

2) The eternal trinity of the GODHEAD.

3) The eternal deity, virgin birth, vicarious death, and spotless humanity of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

4) MANKIND by nature is sinful and under the condemnation of God.

5) Personal SALVATION is by God’s grace, through faith in the crucified, risen, and glorified Christ.

6) The ETERNAL SECURITY of all the saved.

7) The personality and deity of the HOLY SPIRIT.

8) The essential unity of all believers of the present dispensation as members of the one true Church, the BODY OF CHRIST.

9) The GIFTS enumerated in Ephesians 4:7-16, have been given for the building up of the Body of Christ, and of these, only evangelists, pastors, and teachers are in order during the present dispensation. The sign gifts of the Acts period were temporary in character, and have ceased.

10) The privilege and duty of all the saved to WALK by faith as children of light.

11) The Communion of the LORD’S SUPPER as revealed through Paul for the members of the Body of Christ “TILL HE COME.”

12) All believers are made members of the Body of Christ by One Divine BAPTISM, by which also they are identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. In the light of I Corinthians 1:17, Ephesians 4:5. and Colossians 2:12, we affirm that water baptism has no place in God’s spiritual program for the Body of Christ in this dispensation of grace.

13) The RESURRECTION of the Body.

14) The Pretribulation RAPTURE of the Church.

15) The personal, premillennial RETURN OF CHRIST to reign on earth.

16) The ETERNAL PUNISHMENT of the unsaved dead.

17) The MYSTERY “Hid in God” was the divine purpose to make of Jew and Gentile a whole new thing, that is, the Church, which is Christ’s Body. The revelation of this Mystery was committed to Paul, and it is in his writings alone that we find the doctrine, position, walk and destiny of the Church.


3. What is a "berean" anyway?
Thanks for asking. We get asked that a lot. Being called a Berean comes from Acts 17:10-11. In verse 11 it says that those from Berea (hence, the Bereans) were nobler than the people in Thessalonica because they "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

So, when we say that someone is a "Berean" we mean that they do two things: (1) They have an open mind and willingly receive the Word of God when it is taught to them and (2) But then, they check out what they were taught by comparing it with the Scriptures.

Both aspects are important. Some people are so closed minded that they will not even listen to anything new or that might threaten what they already know. Others are so gullible that they accept whatever is told them without ever checking it against what the Bible says. Both extremes are to be avoided.

A Berean is one who has a balanced viewpoint. We listen to what someone has to say because we are eager to learn the word of God more perfectly. We realize that we have not learned it all. But then, we take what we have heard and compare it with the Bible. Then, if both match, we have learned something and increased our knowledge of God's Word, rightly divided.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Carol states:

quote:
Flooding the entire forum with your ENOUGH SAID is just as offensive.
why wouldyou say that Carol?

Im just finished with those conversations and will not post on those threads anymore..

I did not know that would be offensive.

sorry if that offended you...

[hug]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
wildb states:

quote:
17) The MYSTERY “Hid in God” was the divine purpose to make of Jew and Gentile a whole new thing, that is, the Church, which is Christ’s Body. The revelation of this Mystery was committed to Paul, and it is in his writings alone that we find the doctrine, position, walk and destiny of the Church.


This is one of the keys to the Berean Cult..
Check this out in detail....
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
quote:

Berean Searchlight, the foremost ultradispensationalist journal since 1940. This group was founded by Cornelius Stam and J. C. O'Hair, two Chicago-area ultradispensationalists whose ministries peaked in the '40s and '50s respectively. Their distinctive teaching is that the apostle Paul inaugurated a new dispensation of grace, unveiling a brand-new gospel and (according to some) a whole new way of salvation. Paul's teaching is thus set against the rest of the New Testament and interpreted in a way that renders most of Jesus' teaching utterly irrelevant to the present age. Thus the Word of God is mangled in the name of Bereanism. Though no longer the force it was in the mid-20th century, this organization has stayed alive by adopting the cultish strategy of targeting untaught lay people to whom this bizarre hermeneutical approach (buttressed with selective proof-texting) appears deep and sophisticated.[/QUOTE]


http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/bookmark.htm
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISM

by: Dr. David E. Walker

� Copyright David E. Walker

This article is a chapter taken from the book The Bible Believer’s Guide to Dispensationalism

Excerpt posted with permission from the author







Their Founding Fathers



As detailed previously, hyper-dispensationalism (or ultra-dispensationalism) arose primarily from the teachings of E.W. Bullinger (1837-1913), and was later Americanized by J.C. O’Hair, Charles F. Baker, and Cornelius R. Stam (1908-2003). Modern day “Bereans” believe those men “recover[ed] the truth of Pauline revelation.”[1] The Berean Bible Society publishes the hyper’s periodical: The Berean Searchlight.


“Ultra” or “Hyper” -


Whether you use the Greek prefix (hyper) or the Latin (ultra), makes no difference. Shelton Smith (editor of The Sword of the Lord) creates his own definition by differentiating between an “ultra,” and a “hyper” dispensationalist: “By my definition, an ultra dispensationalist is somewhere between a dispensationalist and a hyper dispensationalist.”[2] Smith’s label is aimed at Bible believing, soul-winning Baptists, who reject the “saved the same” scenario. Smith knows they are not “hypers,” but he disagrees with them; hence, the label “ultra.”

Classic hyper-dispensationalism is a dead end divergence that kills any real “Bible Study.” Articles in The Berean Searchlight include such titles as: “Are the Twelve Apostles in the Body of Christ,” “No Other Doctrine But Right Division,” “Why Paul,” “The Confession of Sins,” “Paul, The Apostle of Grace,” “At What Age was Jesus Baptized,” and “The Devil and the Mystery.”


What is “Paul’s Gospel?”


Instead of “Paul’s gospel” including the message of salvation by “grace through faith,” (with an emphasis on the mystery of the body of Christ and the rapture) hypers attribute the doctrine of substitutionary atonement to Paul alone. Ricky Kurth of the Berean Bible Society answers the question: “Did Philip preach ‘Christ died for our sins’ to the Ethiopian eunuch?”



It is tempting to think that Philip preached this to the eunuch when we read that he “preached unto him Jesus” from Isaiah 53 (Acts 8:26-35). However, this message that was later given to the Apostle Paul (1 Cor. 15:3,4) had not yet been revealed. Thus we know that Philip rather preached Christ according to the kingdom program.[3]

The “Issue” -


A person can easily be identified as a hyper by their unorthodox view of when the body of Christ began. In fact, this is “the issue.”[4]

Stam states their position:



We believe, and are sure, however, that the present dispensation began, not with Peter and the eleven at Pentecost, but with Paul, to whom the risen, glorified Lord later reveled His will and program for our day. [5]



Ryrie correctly notes that most “Dispensationalists say that the church began at Pentecost, while ultra dispensationalists believe that it began with Paul sometime later.”[6] Whether or not they hold to the “Acts 28” view (Bullinger), or the Acts 18 view (O’Hair) or the so-named “mid Acts” view (Acts 9 - Stam and Sadler) makes no difference. They all add an extra dispensation between Acts 2 and Paul. This is done to eliminate water baptism. [Bullinger, and his followers also did away with communion since they only held Paul’s prison epistles (of which 1 Cor. 11 is not included) as doctrine for the Church Age.]

Ironside, in his classic pamphlet Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth, categorizes the errors of hypers who took Bullinger’s position:



1. The “four gospels are entirely Jewish.”[7]



2. The church in the book of Acts “is simply an aspect of the kingdom and is not the same as the Body of Christ.”[8]



3. Only Paul’s prison epistles are Church Age material. “Paul did not receive his special revelation of the mystery of the body until his imprisonment in Rome.”[9]



4. “The entire book of Revelation has to do with the coming age and has no reference to the Church today.”[10]



[Note: The fact that some of the doctrinal verses in Rev. 1-3 teach a person can lose his salvation imposes at least a primary application to the Tribulation, with a historical and devotional relevance to the Church Age. See: Rev. 4:1- “things which must be hereafter.”]



5. The bride of Jesus Christ is NOT the body of Christ, but “Jewish.”[11]



6. “The Christian ordinances . . . Have no real connection with the present economy.”[12]



Ruckman outlines the teachings of hyper-dispensationalism as follows:



1. There is a period of time called “THE GRACE OF GOD” which began in Acts 9 (Stam, Baker, Moore, Watkins) or in Acts 18 (O’Hare and others) or in Acts 28 (Bullinger . . .

2. Water baptism is not for “THIS AGE” since “THIS AGE” began in Acts 9 or Acts 13 or Acts 18 or Acts 28.

3. Bible-believing Baptists are heretics who do not follow PAULINE teaching (1 Ti. 1:16).

4. Since Paul did not COMMAND anyone to be baptized, it is UNSCRIPTURAL.

5. Since Paul was not “SENT TO BAPTIZE,” water baptism is PRE-PAULINE (1 Cor. 1).

6. The “ONE BAPTISM” of Ephesians 4 automatically cancels water baptism .[13]


“In The Body Or Out Of The Body?” -


As we have demonstrated before (see The Transition Periods) the Bible does not “chop up” as neatly as the hypers would have you to believe. They want the so-called “Dispensation of the Grace of God” to begin with Paul so they can seemingly get away from the different plan of salvation found in Acts 2:38. Note Sadler’s flawed comment:



The early chapters of Acts are merely a continuation of the earthly ministry of Christ to Israel. . . We must ask, who of the Acts 2 persuasion, preaches Acts 2:38 as the terms of salvation today?[14]



Well, who of the “mid Acts” position (following Paul) preaches Acts 19:6 as the terms of receiving the Holy Ghost? Biblical facts show four different “plans of salvation” (or “ways to get the Holy Ghost”) in the book of Acts before and after Paul’s conversion (see: Acts 2,8,16,19). All four “plans of salvation” fall under ONE dispensation. Hypers confuse the dispensing of truth with the revelation of truth during the transition from Jew to Gentile (see Romans 11) in Acts!

The beginning of the body of Christ is easy to determine when the Bible is taken at face value, instead of the understanding of men (i.e. Paul being “revealed” the mystery). The way for the spiritual body of Christ was made at Calvary (Eph. 2:14-16), even though it “hinged” upon the glorification and ascension of His physical body. While it found full manifestation on the day of Pentecost, it did not necessarily begin there, and certainly did not begin after Pentecost. Ruckman:



The “ONE BODY” did not begin with Paul at all. The verse (vs. 16) says that the reconciliation of Jew and Gentile (see “the mystery” given in 3:4-6) began at CALVARY: “in the one body by the cross.”[15]



Observe the following verses:



Eph 2:14-16

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:



John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.



John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.



Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.



Acts 1:4-5

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost . . .



1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.



The fact that believers were “added to the church” (Acts 2:47), and also “added to the Lord” (Acts 5:14) before Paul’s conversion, indicate that the body existed prior to Paul. [Stam does NOT comment on Acts 5:14 in his commentary,[16] nor does Sadler in his booklet The Historical Beginning of the Church!] Additionally, 1 Cor. 12:13 proves that Paul was preaching the mystery of the body before Acts 18! Other verses that prove conclusively that the body of Christ was present before Paul are listed below:



Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.



Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:



Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: . . .



Romans 16:7 is so clear that hyper-dispensationalists must make a difference between being “in Christ,” and “in the body of Christ.” Joel Finck writes in The Berean Searchlight: “Being ‘in Christ’ is not necessarily the same as being ‘in the body’ of Christ.”[17] This is a grave inaccuracy. Paul said that the Corinthians were “in Christ” (1 Cor. 1:30) and also that they were “the body of Christ.”



1 Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.



Galatians 1:13 and Acts 9:5 confirm that the body of Christ was on the earth as “the church.” Otherwise, how could Paul (as an unsaved man) persecute Jesus when He was at the right hand of God? Hypers assume that the body of Christ could not exist until it was revealed to Paul. What they do not understand, is that revelation of a truth has nothing to do with the reality of the particular truth. For instance, the death of Jesus was an atonement for individual sinners, even though it was not revealed as such until Acts 8. Paul never said the body of Christ began with him, he only said that the “mystery” of it was “revealed” to him (Eph. 3:3,4).

What hypers eventually do is invent another other “body” (one before Acts 9) called the “Kingdom Church.”[18] Those in the “Kingdom Church” would include Peter, James and John. Since Peter, James and John were baptized by the Spirit in Acts 2 (which would place them in the body), hypers are forced to “teach two or three baptisms of the Spirit.”[19]

Hypers fail to associate John 17:21 (“that they also may be one IN US”) with the promise of Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:4,5 (which see). While Baker admits the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit, he denies that it placed them in the “body of believers, as described in 1 Corinthians 12:13.”[20]

Furthermore, hypers must get around the fact that Peter was writing to those “in Christ” (1 Pet. 3:16; 5:14), thus proving he was in the body. Finck alleges that Peter uses the phrase “in a redemptive sense rather than the dispensational sense of being in the body of Christ.”[21] He does this to discount Peter’s epistles for Church Age doctrine.

Hypers must also ignore plain references to other Jews (remember Paul was a Jew) living during Paul’s time that were said to be a part of the “one body.”

Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.



Finck comments: “Paul is not saying in Rom. 12:5 that every believer living at that time was a member of the body of Christ.”[22] Hypers invent a special class of “body mystery believers” converted under Paul. According to their system Romans 12:5 might read this way: “So, those Gentiles who were converted after my conversion and revelation of the mystery, are one body, which is different than the kingdom body of Jewish believers who received a different gospel by Peter to the circumcision.” They fail to remember that Peter’s GENTILE converts, were saved just like Paul’s converts (see Acts 10)!


“One Baptism” � -


Their attempt to prove the body of Christ is not in Acts 2 is not their only impairment. They insist: “water baptism ends”[23] in Acts 28 with the rejection of the gospel from Israel. They assert: “Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles, the teacher of the Church, never once commands us to be baptized with water?”[24] They answer the question, “Should I be baptized” with:



While many pastors would say “yes,” the Apostle Paul says “no.” Water baptism was once a part of God’s program for His people Israel, but it is not a part of God’s program for His people today, the Body of Christ.[25]



Although Paul never answered that question in his writings, hypers emphatically answer “in his name.” Paul answered with his works (he was baptized, and he baptized others)!

They lump baptism in with circumcision (Jewish), miracles (sign to the Jews), healing, and tongues. They think the reason Paul was “thankful” that he did not baptize any more converts (other than Crispus and Gaius) was because he was NOT to do any more baptisms.[26] They believe Eph. 4:4,5 cancels out any water baptism for this age.



Hung Up To Dry


Below are the Bible answers to this anti-baptism (dry-cleaning) fixation:



Answer One

The commission in Matthew 28 is NOT distinctly Jewish, or the word “nations” would not have been used. [All the confusion over the different “commissions” overlooks the fact that Paul is the only apostle that fulfilled the “Tribulation commission” of Mark 16:16-18 (all except drinking the poison).]



Answer Two

The mode of baptism in Matt. 28 is NOT the same as Acts 2:38. All three names of the Godhead are used in Matt. 28 while only the name of “Jesus Christ” is used in Acts 2.



Answer Three

All three names (plural) are said to be a “name” (singular). This is interesting, because in Acts 10:48 Gentiles are baptized by Peter, not in the name of Jesus Christ, but in the “name (singular) of the Lord” - “Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.”



Answer Four

Church history testifies to the fact of believers baptism (immersion) after conversion. Hypers believe that the truth was missing all these years, and was finally revealed and “recovered.”[27]



Answer Five

Paul was baptized, and we are to follow Paul. To this contention, hypers may respond, “Paul was circumcised too, but we should not get circumcised.” This comparison is not justifiable. For, Paul was circumcised as a Jew, but baptized as a believer in Jesus Christ. Baptism was something NEW CONVERTS did! Paul was a new convert, placed into the “one body,” and was baptized as a “new creature,” not a Jew or Gentile! As Ruckman states, “Paul COMMANDED NO ONE to attend church, pass out tracts, proselyte Baptists who are already saved, or argue about water baptism.”[28]



Answer Six

Furthermore, Peter, James, and John were all baptized, and so was Jesus Christ. Hypers claim that Christ’s baptism was his priestly “anointing.”[29] They go to the Greek and are thereby confused with “washing” and “baptism.” Jesus was not anointed as a priest on earth! His earthly ministry was that of a prophet (John 1:25; 4:19; 6:14; 7:40; Deut. 18:18). The priestly role of Jesus Christ took place after He died and rose again! See: Heb. 2:17; 3:1; 4:14.

Answer Seven

Paul baptized his own converts, AFTER Acts 9! The meaning of 1 Cor. 1:17 is clear if one adheres to the context. A verse without a context is useless. Christ did not send ANYONE just to baptize, but to preach!



Answer Eight

Just because the phrase “one baptism” is used, does not annul water baptism. If it did, Paul would not have baptized anyone, and would have COMMANDED believers NOT to be baptized in water.

The context again clears up any misunderstanding. Notice the framework is unity: “one another,” (vs. 2); “unity of the Spirit” (vs. 3); and seven “ones” in the passage (verses 4-6). Paul is saying that there is only one “saving baptism.” This would match Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12; 1 Cor. 12:13 and Matt. 3:11. That must be the correct “interpretation,” since we know there are MANY “lords,” MANY “faiths” and MANY “spirits:”



1 Cor 8:5-6

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.



Mark 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.



Confession of Sin � -


As alluded to earlier, hypers sever the word of God up into such thin slices, that ONLY Paul’s epistles (and maybe only his prison epistles) are allowed for Church Age doctrine. Once that presupposition is taken, Peter, James, and John are not allowed in the body of Christ, although they are “in Christ” (1 Peter 3:16; 5:14). To them, Peter’s epistles cannot contain ANY Church Age doctrine, nor can 1 John through Jude.

This brings us to an important question: Should a Christian confess his sins to God for forgiveness according to 1 John 1:9? While the hypers do not believe in sinless perfection (like some Holiness groups), they do, however, preclude a Christian confessing his sins, distort the Grace of God, and fail to understand the “standing and state” of the believer.

Hyper Ken Lawson, says that 1 John. 1:9 “has caused untold harm and detriment to the people of God.”[30] He thinks a Christian should not feel guilty about his sins (after salvation) since “God wishes for us to enjoy the gift of salvation.”[31] He claims that God will not “continue to show him [the believer] the cold shoulder”[32] if he “fails to confess wrongdoing.”

So, hypers do not believe a Christian’s fellowship with Jesus Christ is based on their personal, holy walk. Lawson’s arguments against the “Father, son, relationship” understanding of 1 John 1 are as follows:



It is based on a performance system of conditional blessing, and shifted my gaze away from Christ and His grace to my own faithfulness (or usually failure) to confess.[33]



Repentance, and confession of sin (both of which hypers snub) are CLEARLY a part of the believer’s fellowship with God the Father, in every dispensation! Peter had to confess his love to Jesus Christ, before he could be restored (John 21), and we are not any better than him! Who (but hypers) would think that sin was not acknowledged (Ps. 51:3) with Peter’s three confessions in John 21?

Over and over again, fellowship (not salvation) is predicated upon repentance - the stem of confession. Hypers do NOT believe in REPENTANCE. Note the following verses:



Lev 5:5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:



Isa 64:6-7

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.



Prov 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.



Num 5:7 Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed.

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;



Neh 1:6 Let thine ear now be attentive, and thine eyes open, that thou mayest hear the prayer of thy servant, which I pray before thee now, day and night, for the children of Israel thy servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel, which we have sinned against thee: both I and my father's house have sinned.



Ps 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.



Ps 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.



Josh 7:19 And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me.



Dan 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;



Hos 5:15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.



2 Sam 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.



Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.



Matt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.



1 Cor 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.



Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.



The last two references are during the “dispensation of the mystery.” How do you “judge” yourself without confessing and repenting of your sins? Answer: you cannot, and some do not, therefore, they fall under the chastening hand of Almighty God according to Hebrews 12 (which hypers disregard for the Church Age).

The real Berean who “rightly” divides, (instead of “wrongly shredding the word”) will notice that the people who confess in Acts 19 do so under Paul’s preaching. If they confessed publicly to men, you KNOW they had to confess to God! In fact Paul attributed God’s presence to himself while he was preaching and teaching the word.



2 Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.



1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.



The next problem that Lawson has with the word of God, concerns prayer and honesty:



If what I believed concerning confession was true, I was probably ‘out of fellowship’ much of the time, and so were most believers.[34]



Yes, “most believers” are “out of fellowship” with the Lord, for only through a constant “cleansing of ourselves” (2 Cor. 7:1) through PRAYER (1 Thess. 5:17) can we be “in fellowship.” Notice Lawson’s excuse: “I had to honestly admit to myself that I found it extremely difficult to confess all my daily sins on a consistent basis.” So, since prayer and confession is “difficult,” hypers find scriptural alibis to disobey 1 John 1:7-9, as well as Paul’s command to “pray without ceasing.”

Note also, that the verse does not stipulate confession of every sin. It simply states a fact: When you mess up, you can go to the Lord, confess, and the blood of Jesus (the basis for forgiveness) will clean you.



Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?



Lawson (as all hypers do) reverts to Paul for a defense:



Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles, is silent in all his writings on confession of sins for forgiveness, parental or otherwise.[35]



Paul never forbad the practice either. Should we not observe the omissions as well as the commands? As pointed out earlier, Paul did NOT rebuke the Ephesians from “confessing” (Acts 19) when he preached. In fact, Paul’s preaching pivoted upon the message of REPENTANCE (which is the heart of confession):



Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.



Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.



Going further from the truth, Lawson tries to prove 1 John 1 is not relevant to a Church Age saint, because “A believer cannot walk in darkness any more than an unbeliever can walk in the light.”[36] Has he failed to read the favorite book of hyper-dispensationalists - Ephesians?



Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:



Eph 5:11-14

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.



If the Lord commands us to “walk as children of light” (Eph. 5:8), then obviously there are believers who are NOT “walking in the light.” The “sleeper” in Eph. 5:14, is NOT an unbeliever, he is a Christian. Paul often edified the believer to “walk in the light” instead of darkness:



Rom 13:11-13

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.



1 Thess 5:4-8

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.



While it is true that positionally, every child of God is “in the light” (in Christ, in heavenly places), practically 1 John 1 applies along with Paul’s epistles (Ephesians, Romans, and 1 Thessalonians) in a doctrinal manner to the New Testament saint. [Hypers forget that good “sound doctrine” (1 Tim. 1:10) refers not only to the revelation of the “Pauline mystery,” but to BEHAVIOR! Read 1 Tim. 1:9]

Some hypers may not believe in “sinless perfection” (like some Holiness groups) but they do believe in “constant fellowship.” Notice Lawson again:



If any believers were living in a state of broken fellowship, it was the Corinthians.

A. There were carnal divisions and contentions among them (1 Cor. 1:10-13; 3:1-3).

B. They were infatuated with worldly wisdom (1 Cor. 1:28-2:5; 3:18-23).

C. They were judging things which they should not and failing to judge things which they should (1 Cor. 4:1-5; 5:6).

D. They were allowing sexual immorality in the local church and were proud of it (1 Cor. 5:1,2).

E. They were taking each other to court before the unbelievers (1 Cor. 6:1-12).

F. They were visiting harlots (1 Cor. 6:13-20).

G. They were proud of their knowledge and causing weaker brethren to stumble (1 Cor. 8).

H. They were questioning Paul’s authority and apostleship (1 Cor. 9:1-6)

I. They were prone to idolatry by lusting after evil things (1 Cor. 10).

J. They had disorders at church, including making a mockery of the Lord’s Supper (1 Cor. 11).

K. They were enamored with the spiritual gifts but were failing to exercise them in love (1 Cor. 12-14).

L. They were doubting the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:12-19).

M. If all this was not enough, they were stingy in their contribution to the poor saints (2 Cor. 8:9).

. . . . Moreover, there is no command to confess their sins in order to receive forgiveness and restoration to fellowship. On the contrary, Paul assures them that ‘God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of His son Jesus Christ our Lord’ (1 Cor. 1:9). It is a fellowship based upon God’s faithfulness.[37]



So, basically, Lawson is teaching that the immoral living Corinthians were in sweet fellowship with a holy God. Anyone who can read the letter to the Corinthians from Paul, and get that summation, would probably think the Koran contains good marital advice! Read the following verses and note how they drive at confession and repentance: 1 Cor 3:1-4; 1 Cor 3:17; 1 Cor 4:2; 1 Cor 4:6; 1 Cor 4:14; 1 Cor 4:18-20; 1 Cor 5:1-2; 1 Cor 5:6-7; 1 Cor 5:13; 1 Cor 6:5; 1 Cor 6:18; and on and on.

The very fact of their repentance (given in 2 Corinthians) stipulates confession:



2 Cor 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.



2 Cor 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.



2 Cor 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.



Hypers teach Satan (not the Lord) burdens the believer with conviction of sin and guilt:



Guilt is a killer, a killer of our joy, our peace, and our enjoyment of intimacy with God. If Satan can use guilt (which our Lord has already taken away) to use as a wedge to separate us from God, his strategy to take us as a captive in the battle is secure. . . . Our fellowship with Jesus Christ our Lord can never be broken.[38]

They disregarded Paul’s comment: “ye sorrowed after a godly [not devily] sort” (2 Cor. 7:11), and the repercussion of broken fellowship in the life of the believer - the Judgment Seat of Christ. Why the Judgment Seat of Christ, if a believer is never out of fellowship? Adam was saved by “grace” and “the blood of a lamb” (Gen. 3:21) and he was OUT OF FELLOWSHIP with God! Hypers abandon the distinction (“rightly dividing” right?) between the Christian’s standing and state. Scofield appositely comments: “Positionally he [the believer] is ‘perfected forever’ (Heb. 10:14), but looking within, at his state, he must say, ‘ Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect’ (Phil. 3:12).”[39]

This “unfatherly grace” of hypers culminates with a hollow answer to the problem of sin in the life of a believer:



. . . .even the most mature Christians do sin. When this happens, the first thing to remember is our complete forgiveness in Christ Jesus. This will prevent us from going on another guilt trip. . .[40]



Was the “godly sorrow” (2 Cor.) just a “low self esteem” guilt trip? Or, was it true repentance and confession of sin? Lawson continues:



When a Christian sins, we should agree with God’s Word that it is wrong (confess) and forsake the behavior or attitude . . . So we confess our sins, not in order to receive forgiveness, but because we wish to be properly attuned to grace and to thus glorify Him who has forgiven us all trespasses.[41]



What is all this “behavior,” and “attitude” garbage? Is it Bible? “We wish to be properly attuned?” After writing two articles with the intent of impeding the confession of sin to God, Lawson says that we should confess our sins (but not for forgiveness)! Do you think the Corinthians just “properly attuned” themselves, or did they actually CONFESS THEIR SINS because they wanted restored fellowship? How could they “repent” without confession? A hyper no more believes in repentance for today (Church Age) than he does sabbath worship.

Lawson’s conclusion about the doctrinal meaning of 1 John 1:9 is as shallow as a teardrop:



Our key verse in 1 John 1:9 is found to be a salvation verse for Israel looking for the return of Christ to establish His earthly, Davidic, Millennial Kingdom . . . In conclusion, 1 John 1:9 is a salvation verse which fits ‘hand in glove’ with the Prophecy program of the Gospel of the kingdom.[42]



If it is a salvation verse for Israel in the Tribulation, why is the word “all” used in 1 John 1? Note: “all sin” (vs. 7); “all unrighteousness” (vs. 9). Rev. 14:11 explains that there is NO REMEDY (confession or otherwise) for taking the mark of the beast. A person will no more be washed from “all sin” in the Tribulation by the confession of it, than a person NOW can be saved by the golden rule!

If 1 John 1:9 is a salvation verse for Israel in the Tribulation, why are the believers in 1 John said to be “sons of God” awaiting the “appearing” (not advent) of the Lord. No Tribulation saint will “be like him” (1 John 3) because no Tribulation saint will be a member of the body of Christ.

“The blood of Jesus Christ” did NOT cleanse anyone during the gospel of the kingdom message in Matthew, Mark or Luke. 1 John cannot be applied to Israel. [This brings up a difference between the “gospel of the kingdom” prior to the cross, and “the gospel of the kingdom” after the cross, preached during the Tribulation. In the Tribulation, the “gospel of the kingdom” will include the “faith of Jesus” (Rev. 13:10; 14:12). That is, a person must believe that Jesus Christ is not only Messiah, but the Saviour. Belief in the substitutionary atonement of Christ is crucial to a person’s salvation in the Tribulation period.]


Fruits of Hyper-dispensationalism -


The heresies of hyper-dispensationalists produce such “deep Bible study,” that its adherents drown under its influences. Their teachings are inconsistent with the scriptures, and manufacture Christians inactive. Wining lost souls to Jesus Christ is not the “drive” of hypers, even though it was for the apostle Paul. They are obsessed with stopping water baptism, and “following Paul” nowhere. As Dr. Ruckman suitably summarizes: “The only theme song they have is “How dry I am, how dry I am,” and their teaching and preaching is as dry as their baptism”[43]





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Sadler, Paul M. “From the Editor,” The Berean Searchlight 05/03: 4.

[2] Smith, Shelton., “One Book Rightly Divided Reflects Ultra-dispensationalism,” The Sword of

the Lord 07/05/02: 8B

[3] Kurth, Ricky. “Question Box,” The Berean Searchlight 03/05: 21.

[4] Ruckman, Peter S., Hyper-Dispensationalism (Pensacola: Bible Baptist Bookstore, 1985) 6.

[5] Cornelius R. Stam “True Spirituality,” The Berean Searchlight 02/05: 11.

[6] Ryrie, Charles C., Dispensationalism (Chicago: Moody Press, 1995) 197.

[7] Ironside, H.A., Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth (New York: Loizeaux Brothers, 1938) 9.

[8] Ibid.

[9] Ibid.

[10] Ibid.

[11] Ibid.

[12] Ibid.

[13] Ruckman, Hyper-Dispensationalism, 20.

[14] Sadler, The Berean Searchlight 03/03: 3.

[15] Ruckman, Peter S., Ruckman’s Bible References (Pensacola: Bible Baptist Bookstore, 1997)

297.

[16] Stam, C.R. Acts Dispensationally Considered Vol. I, II (Germantown Wisconsin: Berean

Bible Society, 1954) 184-189.

[17] Finck, Joel W. “Are the Twelve Apostles in the Body of Christ,” The Berean Searchlight

08/03: 19.

[18] Sadler, Paul M., The Historical Beginning of the Church (Germantown, WI: Berean Bible

Society, 1996) 15.

[19] Ruckman, Hyper-Dispensationalism, 21.

[20] Baker, Charles F. A Dispensational Synopsis of the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Grace

Publications, 1989) 33.

[21] Finck, The Berean Searchlight 08/03: 19.

[22] Ibid.

[23] Stam, C.R. Water Baptism (Germantown Wisconsin: Berean Bible Society, 1998) 10.

[24] Ibid., 12.

[25] Kurth, Ricky Now That I Believe (Part 2) (Germantown Wisconsin: Berean Bible Society,

2004) 17.

[26] Stam, Water Baptism, 14.

[27] Sadler, Paul M. “From the Editor,” The Berean Searchlight 05/03: 4.

[28] Ruckman, Hyper-Dispensationalism, 20.

[29] Companion Bible (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1990) 1313.

[30] Lawson, Ken, “The Confession of Sin,” The Berean Searchlight 01/03: 14.

[31] Ibid., 16.

[32] Ibid., 17.

[33] Ibid.

[34] Ibid.

[35] Ibid., 18.

[36] Ibid., 19.

[37] Lawson, Ken, “The Confession of Sin Cont‘d,” The Berean Searchlight 02/03: 15, 16.

[38] Ibid., 18, 20.

[39] Scofield, C.I., Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (New Jersey: Loizeaux Brothers, 1896)

53.

[40] Lawson, Ken, “The Confession of Sin Cont‘d,” The Berean Searchlight 02/03: 21.

[41] Ibid., 22.

[42] Ibid., 17,22.

[43] Ruckman, Hyper-Dispensationalism, 20.

quote:
Excerpt posted with permission from the author.
Also go to link for HA Ironsides, Litt. D. studies:


http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
[QUOTE]


http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/bookmark.htm

Interesting web sight

"Theologically, Phil is a committed Calvinist"

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/bio.htm

This site that says the Berean Bible Society is bad theology also says that Charles Finney and Pentecostalism are really bad theology.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
That would be very funny since Calvinism is strong on eternal security.

Actually, Phil Johnson's "Really Bad Theology" section seems to be opposed to most of what barry believes.
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
You got that right, Carol. My Pastor is an Calvinist and is very much Eternal Security. Those who teach that you can lose your salvation forget the verse where those who go to hell that Jesus says "depart I never knew you" If you were once a Christian and lost your faith, that would either make God forgetful or mentally challenged, which He is NEITHER.
Jesus does not forget who His children are.

Jesus salvation gift to us eternal. It is not a gift that He gives us and takes back at will.
betty
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Author: Rev. Noah Hutchings

 -

After serving in churches for many years, Noah Hutchings became interested in why those who profess the name of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord believe differently on hundreds of doctrinal issues, when it is so obvious that all cannot be right.

After an appraisal of the entire spectrum of denominational differences, the author reduces the many ecclesiastical variances to one common denominator: the Gospel of the Kingdom committed to Peter to preach to the Circumcision (Israel) and the Gospel of sovereign Grace committed to the Uncircumcision (Gentiles).

If you have ever wondered why there are so many denominations, sects, and cults, and why church memberships cannot agree on even simple doctrines like baptism, then you will want to read and study this book. This book is also used in seminaries, and thousands have been published.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
wildb states:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17) The MYSTERY “Hid in God” was the divine purpose to make of Jew and Gentile a whole new thing, that is, the Church, which is Christ’s Body. The revelation of this Mystery was committed to Paul, and it is in his writings alone that we find the doctrine, position, walk and destiny of the Church.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is one of the keys to the Berean Cult..
Check this out in detail....

This, if you check out C. Stams writings, and JC O'Hair, they do not take the gospels as for the church today, they do not take the writings of peter as for the church today..only Paul received the "mystery" for the church today..

Check it out, get your head out of the sand and check it out..beware.....

http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Stop being a false whitness berry.

Things that Differ by C. R. Stam (Paperback -

 -
9 of 9 people found the following review helpful:
Best Book On Pauline Dispensationalism, January 13, 2005
By John Grove (Malibu, CA) - See all my reviews

This review is from: Things that differ: The fundamentals of dispensationalism
This book has been instrumental for years in opening the eyes of believers around the globe to the basic tenets of Mid-Acts dispensationalism and stands as the monumental book on "rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Tim 2:15).

I would also recommend other works by Stam:

1. Acts Dispensationally Considered.
2. The Controversy (now called "Holding Fast the Faithful Word")
3. Paul, His Apostleship and Message
4. Moses and Paul

His collection can be found through the Berean Bible Society
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/

Caution: These books change lives.
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3 of 3 people found the following review helpful:
A Dispensationalists Handbook, November 2, 2008
By Kevin Ball - See all my reviews

This review is from: Things that Differ (Paperback)
I have read almost all of Stam's books and Things that Differ is his most important work as far as I'm concerned. No theological system is 100% correct and no one has all the answers but if you have lots of questions that never seem to get answered to your satisfaction I believe this book will leave you with the least amount unanswered. It's an easy read, it's full of verse references and it will answer your questions about subjects I hear people ask every day on the radio like, baptism, tithing, sign gifts, salvation and works/security etc... Give it a shot. It doesn't cost much and even if you wind up thinking Stam is crazy it will make you think and study to prove your own views are correct.
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7 of 10 people found the following review helpful:
You will finally understand the bible!!!, April 13, 2006
By Edward Cook "christianusedbooks" (Englewood, Co.) - See all my reviews

This review is from: Things that Differ (Paperback)
I read this book 25 years ago and have continued to recommend it to those who have been trying to understand the bible. The bible will not be a mystery anymore. It will help anyone understand why some christian speak in tongues, get water baptized, believe they can loose their salvation, believe they are going through the tribulation, etc. and others don't. Can this book do all that? Absolutely!!!!!!!!
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9 of 13 people found the following review helpful:
A Very Important Read, December 21, 2005
By Q. McAuley - See all my reviews

This review is from: Things that Differ (Paperback)
It is my opinion that Things That Differ is the most instructive book on Dispensationalism ever written, while being at the same time extraordinarily readable.

This book will help the reader understand the fundamentals of Dispensationalism (the teaching that God has dispensed His will in different ways, at different times, and for different reasons) and "rightly dividing the Word."

The necessity of accurately dividing the Bible (i.e. making the same distinctions in our study of the Bible that God made in His production of it) is at the heart of this book. The Author maintains that though the entire Bible is written for our learning, not all of it is addressed to us, nor written about us. This book helps illustrate the logical rules for interpretive study.

This book is sure to make your personal Bible study more profitable and meaningful.
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A Must Read!, July 16, 2009
By Peter Landowski (United States) - See all my reviews

This review is from: Things that Differ (Paperback)
There is so much confusion within the church today. This book helps put to rest many of these confusions. Next to the Bible, this book changed my life and my walk as a Christian. I highly recommend reading this book.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Author: Rev. Noah Hutchings

 -

After serving in churches for many years, Noah Hutchings became interested in why those who profess the name of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord believe differently on hundreds of doctrinal issues, when it is so obvious that all cannot be right.

After an appraisal of the entire spectrum of denominational differences, the author reduces the many ecclesiastical variances to one common denominator: the Gospel of the Kingdom committed to Peter to preach to the Circumcision (Israel) and the Gospel of sovereign Grace committed to the Uncircumcision (Gentiles).

If you have ever wondered why there are so many denominations, sects, and cults, and why church memberships cannot agree on even simple doctrines like baptism, then you will want to read and study this book. This book is also used in seminaries, and thousands have been published.

another good read.....
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
C.R. Stam and J.C. O'Hair twist the Gospel to thier own interpetation...You know exactly well what they teach wildb.

Thats why you fight what Yahushua said when he said: If you love ME , keep my commandments,
Stam has twisted you into buying into the "Pauline" doctrine, and that when Yahushua made statements like that they were to the Jews only...

As do you believe that all 4 Gospels were to the "Jews" only and that since Paul went to the "third" heaven he brought back "new" revelation for the "dispensational" [church] of today...

Paul did not have a "private" interpetation my freind.....Scripture is not of private interpetation.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/wronglytoc.html
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Wrongly Diving the Word of Truth
Ultra-Dispensationalism Examined in the Light of the Holy Scriptures
By Dr. Harry Ironside

Concluding Remarks

IN closing this review of the system of teaching which we have had before us, I do not think it necessary to go into the questions at any length of Soul-sleeping and Annihilation (conditional immortality), or the opposite view of the final restoration of Universalism. As already mentioned, the followers of the late Dr. E. W. Bullinger have largely taken up with the first type of teaching in Great Britain; whereas in America many of them have supported Universalist views. But these heretical teachings have been so ably answered on many different occasions by other writers, that it would seem like a work of supererogation to go into them now. I only mention them, in fact, as a warning to those who are dabbling with this system, for that which looks so innocent in the beginning often ends up in complete departure from "the faith once delivered to the saints."

One who was a leading advocate of Bullingerism on the west coast for many years, has put out literature recently which denies the Eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus Christ, the true personality of the Holy Spirit, and many other important truths. In order to support his restoration system, he has put out a private translation of the New Testament which, by his disciples, is generally accepted as absolute authority. Making no pretence to scholarship myself, but simply seeking to be a reverent student of the English Bible with whatever help I have been enabled to glean throughout more than forty years of studying the Word, I hesitated to pronounce upon many of the peculiar translations in this new New Testament, but several years ago it was my privilege to spend some time in company with the late Dr. A. T. Robertson, undoubtedly the foremost Greek scholar in America, and possibly without a peer elsewhere. I asked him if he had ever examined the Version in question. With a look of disgust, he said, "I certainly did. The editor had the impertinence to send me a copy, and asked me to commend his ignorance to others."

I said, "Doctor, would you give me in a few words your real estimate of this work, and give me the privilege of quoting you as occasion may arise?"

He replied, "I can give it to you in two words, Piffle and Puffle, and you may tell any one that that is my estimate of this vaunted translation."

In giving publicity to this conversation, my desire is to warn those who are carried away by great pretence to learning, who may not themselves be familiar with the original languages in which the Bible was written, and are therefore easily impressed by a parade of assumed scholarship.

Generally speaking, I have sought to avoid personalities in this discussion. Many otherwise excellent men have taken up these new views. I have no quarrel with men. I do not desire to reflect upon or belittle any of them. It is the Truth of God that is in question, and my appeal is therefore to the Word itself.

Singularly enough, since these papers began running serially, I have received abusive letters from a number of different teachers accusing me of attacking them. One such writes that he is neither a Bullingerite nor an ultra-dispensationalist, and resents being so designated. Each one must draw his own conclusions as to whether he holds the views I have endeavored to refute. "I speak as unto wise men. judge ye what I say."

In bringing these papers to a close, I would urge interested readers to remember the exhortation of the apostle, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Further Examination of the Epistles

PASSING over for the present the Apostle Paul's presentation of the sevenfold unity of Christianity in Ephesians 4, and his identification of the Body and the Bride in chapter 5, which we shall discuss later, we turn now to others of the prison epistles to see if we can find the slightest intimation of a new revelation given after Paul reached Rome. Unquestionably, Philippians was written during the Roman imprisonment. But we search its four precious chapters in vain for the least suggestion that he has received anything new to unfold. In chapter 1, where he presents Christ as the believer's life, he shows how thoroughly the evangelistic spirit had taken possession of him, so that even in his prison-cell he was rejoicing that Christ was being preached whether in pretence or in truth, and his own desire is that this same Christ may ever be magnified in his body, whether in life or in ,death. He urges the saints to stand fast in one spirit contending for the very faith which he had already made known to them. There is not a hint that he has now something new to reveal; that is, that the old dispensation to which they had hitherto belonged had come to a close, and that a new one had begun. In chapter 2 he dwells on Christ as our Example, and shows how he himself and Timothy and Epaphroditus during the years had sought to follow in Christ's steps, and this is still before his soul. In the third chapter he recounts his past experiences and self-confidence in the old days before be was saved, and then shows how the change was brought about by a sight of the risen Christ. From that moment on, he counted all things as loss for the One who had won his heart, and he was pressing on toward the mark for the prize of the calling of God on high in Christ Jesus. He calls upon them whom he designates as "perfect" to be thus minded. "Perfect" here means "mature," or we might even say well-rounded, or well-balanced. Nothing is needed to give them this perfection in addition to what they already had. Surely, if anywhere, this was the place to show them that hitherto they were but babes, and had only received an initial revelation, but that now he had something for them of an altogether new character which would perfect them in Christ. But there is no word of any such added truth. Nor yet in the last chapter where he exhorts to unity and peace among themselves. May we not say that Paul is singularly remiss in not sharing with his old converts at Philippi the new revelation he had received, if such a thing were really true?

But it was not true:-all the reasoning of the ultra-dispensationalists to the contrary notwithstanding;-for when we turn over to Colossians we find him once more reiterating the same truths he had proclaimed for a generation. He shows that two ministries had been committed to him from the first. He had been made a minister of the Gospel. That Gospel has been preached in all the creation which is under heaven. He had also been made a minister of "the mystery which hath been hidden from ages and generations, but now," he says, "is made manifest to His saints: to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in (or, among) you, the hope of glory: whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: whereunto I also labor, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily" (Col. 1: 26-29).

Let it be carefully observed that he is here covering his entire ministry. He had no such opportunity to preach to multitudes while he was in his Roman, or as some think, his Caesarean prison at the time he wrote this epistle. But he tells us what had characterized his ministry throughout the years. Other saints there were whom he had not met personally, as well as those at Colosse. He thinks of the Laodicean believers, and he longs that they all may be brought into the knowledge of this mystery. But it is not something new. It is that which has ever characterized his teaching.

The Epistle of Titus is not of course a prison epistle at all, but it was written later than any of those that are so designated, excepting Second Timothy. In this letter Paul instructs the younger preacher, Titus, as to the divine order for local churches, the work of a true pastor, and the testimony committed to the servants of God. Surely here, if anywhere, we should expect him to put before Titus the fact that the "transitional period" has now come to an end and Titus must ring the changes as the ultra-dispensationalists do to-day, on "body truth," "closed doors," "Jewish Gospels," "Kingdom Age," etc., etc., ad nauseam. But, no; none of these terms so frequently used and played upon until one is wearied, are suggested to Titus. He is simply to go on preaching and teaching the very same things that have been taught during his earlier association with the Apostle Paul.

The brief letter to Philemon we may pass over, as we would hardly expect to find anything doctrinal in it; and yet even here if Paul's heart were throbbing with the joy of some absolutely new opening up of truth, we would almost wonder how be could help saying a word about it, at least to his friend Philemon.

Hebrews was undoubtedly written very shortly before the apostle's martyrdom, granting that it is from the pen of Paul. That this is so, I have tried to make clear in my book on the Epistle to the Hebrews, and I shall not attempt to go into it now. But in any case, it was undoubtedly written very shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem, and here if anywhere, one might expect these Hebrew believers to be told that the "kingdom age" is now over, "the transition period" has now been finished, and it is for them to accept the new revelation of "body truth." But we search in vain for anything of the kind. It is simply a normal presentation of the precious things of Christ, showing how completely Old Testament types have had their fulfilment in Him and His finished work, and that all who believe now come under the blessings of the new covenant.

Probably later than Hebrews is the second letter to Timothy. It was penned during Paul's second imprisonment, very shortly before his death. As this occurred in A. D. 66 or 67, we may see how far along we have come and still no mention of any new revelation. So far as the truth that is dealt with is concerned, Second Timothy might have been written any time before the first imprisonment. It is in perfect harmony with all the apostle's previous ministry.

But now there are other Epistles to be considered. We have already seen that Paul makes no claim to being the sole depository of the revelation of the mystery. He says it was made known to Christ's holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit, and so we turn to consider the writings of other apostles and prophets asking, "Have we in them any intimation of a new revelation after Paul went to Rome?"

We may dismiss the Epistle of James as not touching on this question. It is addressed definitely to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, and is God's last word, as it were, to those of Israel who were still more or less linked in spirit to the synagogue. Bullingerites generally tell us that James was the first epistle to be written but this is absurd on the face of it. It is quite evident that James is a corrective epistle. It must have been written after the doctrine of justification by faith, as proclaimed by Paul, had been widely preached, for James writes to check those who were abusing that doctrine and using it as an occasion for the flesh. No one can read chapter 2 thoughtfully without seeing that it is based upon, and has in view throughout, Paul's teaching in Romans 4. James does not contradict Paul in the slightest degree, but he does show that there is another justification than that of which Paul speaks. The great apostle to the Gentiles deals particularly with justification by faith before God. James, the apostle to the twelve tribes, emphasizes justification by works before men.

First Peter was probably written before Paul's second imprisonment. Second Peter was certainly written afterwards, and all of Paul's letters were already in circulation when this epistle was penned. Note Peter's own words: "And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Pet. 3: 15, 16). It is impossible to understand these verses excepting in the light of the fact that all the Epistles of Paul were already in circulation. Does Peter then tell us that a new dispensation had come in, and that the middle wall between Jew and Gentile having now for the first time been broken down and the one Body formed, the believers to whom he writes, who were of Jewish extraction, are to recognize this new revelation? Not at all. Peter has never heard of any such thing. He puts Paul's writings on the same plane as the other Scriptures, but warns against the danger of misunderstanding, and so wresting them.

Long years after all the other apostles had gone home to heaven, we find the aged John still preserved in life and caring for the churches of God. According to apparently reliable Church History, he made his home in Ephesus, and moved about in old age among the other churches mentioned in the first three chapters of the Book of the Revelation, those churches which the Bullingerites declare never existed in the past but are still to arise as Jewish Assemblies in the Great Tribulation! Could anything be much more grotesque?

John's Epistles were written, according to the very best authority we have, some time in the last decade of the first century of the Christian era. Weigh this well. Paul had been in heaven for nearly thirty years. John was an inspired apostle, and surely would know, if any one did, of the new revelation and its importance. But we search his letters in vain for the least reference to anything of the kind. In fact, we find the very opposite. False teaching had come in, and he writes to garrison the hearts of the saints against it. In order to do this, he refers them back to that which was from the beginning, namely, to the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and His apostles, as a careful reading of his first Epistle makes abundantly clear. There is not the slightest basis for the thought that a fuller unfolding of truth had been vouchsafed to Paul and others about thirty years after Christ's ascension. It is the message that they had heard from the beginning which he again commends to them.

Let us imagine the late Dr. Bullinger, or some of his lesser satellites, living, not in the twentieth century, but in the closing days of the first century of the Christian era. Filled with their ideas of a new revelation given to Paul in prison, can you by any stretch of the imagination think of them writing epistles or treatises in which no reference whatever is made to the supposedly new doctrines? The fact of the matter is that these men today can scarcely open their mouths without speaking of these things. No matter what text they begin to expound, they almost invariably wind up with something about their system of rightly dividing the Word of Truth, and the importance of making the fine distinctions which they imagine they see in the Word. Yet inspired men like Peter and John, and without particularly going into it, we may add Jude, can expound and apply the Truth of God in the fullest possible way without any reference to anything of the kind. What is the only legitimate conclusion? It is that this whole ultra-dispensational system is an idle dream unsupported by the testimony of the inspired writings.

Error is never consistent. It always over-emphasizes some point generally unimportant and fails to recognize other things of great importance. Heresy is simply a school of opinion in which something is particularly pressed out of proportion to its logical place. Who would dare to say that this system we have been attempting to refute is not therefore heretical? Mark, I do not mean to class it with what Peter calls "damnable heresies," but it is certainly schismatic, and its votaries constitute a special school of opinion within the professed Church of God, a school that attaches great importance to something which after all is not evident to the vast majority of devoted and godly believers. That the effect of this can only be division and harmful, is not only self-evident, but has been abundantly manifest in many places. The Holy Spirit says, "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself" (Titus 3: 10, 11). This is as certainly the Word of God as anything else revealed in the Scripture of Truth.


http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm#ch1
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
The prison epistles—Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon—are so named because they were written by the apostle Paul during his incarceration in Rome.

Here are two examples of the mystery revealed to Paul that he wrote about in his prison espistles.


Ephesians 3:1 - 12 (NASB)

1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men , as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.


Colossians 1:24 - 29 (NASB)

24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. 25Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, 26that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, 27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. 29For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
So your a berean society follower Carol?

Or what?
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
No, but I know that no real cult index lists them as a cult. The people who criticize the Berean Bible Society can themselves be criticized just as easily.

I belong in the bolded paragraph below, and I don't deny that Paul was given a unique revelation as stated in the scriptures I quoted. What do YOU think of those scriptures barrykind? You can't deny them or ignore them because they are in the Bible.
_________________________________________________

Pauline Christianity is a term used to refer to the Christianity associated with the beliefs and doctrines espoused by Paul of Tarsus through his writings.

Most of orthodox Christianity relies heavily on these teachings and considers them to be amplifications and explanations of the teachings of Jesus.

Others perceive in Paul's writings, teachings that are radically different from the original teachings of Jesus documented in the canonical gospels, early Acts and the rest of the New Testament, such as the Epistle of James.

(Wikipedia)
_________________________________________________

You like Ironside. You ought to love this [Smile]

The Gospel is not a call to repentance, or to amendment of our ways, to make restitution for past sins, or to promise to do better in the future. These things are proper in their place, but they do not constitute the Gospel; for the Gospel is not good advice to be obeyed, it is good news to be believed. Do not make the mistake then of thinking that the Gospel is a call to duty or a call to reformation, a call to better your condition, to behave yourself in a more perfect way than you have been doing in the past …

Nor is the Gospel a demand that you give up the world, that you give up your sins, that you break off bad habits, and try to cultivate good ones. You may do all these things, and yet never believe the Gospel and consequently never be saved at all.

SOURCE: Pastor Harry A. Ironside, from the sermon: What Is The Gospel?
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
This is the link to the entire message:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Harry_Ironside/what_is_the_gospel.htm

i have not read this , nor have i ever heard of Mr, Ironside until i posted the article about "Ultra despensationalism"

He may be a poor example of a teacher..im not sure..but we can read about him and see..

i think his teaching on UD was a good one..

First i believe Paul did receive much revelation, but i dont think it contradicted the Gospels, or any other written letters of the NT.

I dont think Paul's revelation, contradicted anything in the OLD T niether..

Let us study and see...

He also states in this sermon:


quote:
THE GOSPEL ACCEPTED

Look at the result of believing the Gospel. Go back to verse two, "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." That is, if you believe the Gospel, you are saved; if you believe that Christ died for your sins, that He was buried, and that He rose again, God says you are saved. Do you believe it? No man ever believed that except by the Holy Ghost. It is the Spirit of God that overcomes the natural unbelief of the human heart and enables a man to put his trust in that message. And this is not mere intellectual credence, but it is that one comes to the place where he is ready to stake his whole eternity on the fact that Christ died, and was buried, and rose again. When Jesus said, "IT IS FINISHED" the work of salvation was completed. A dear saint was dying, and looking up he said, "It is finished; on that I can cast my eternity." Upon a life I did not live, Upon a death I did not die; Another's life, another's death, Is take my whole eternity." Can you say that, and say it in faith?



 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
There, you see? A life you did not live; a death you did not die.

AMEN!!!
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
First and foremost lets return to the title of this thread.

another cult/Berean Bible Society

What does one mean by the word "cult"

Probably means many different things to differnt people.

Mostly, i would gather to say,
the word would mean : any or all of the below;

1] Religious practices or teachings outside of mainstream church today.

2]False Doctrine against Yahushua's teachings

3]Satanic influence of doctrine (occult)

4]Groups that separate themselves from mainstream "church"

5]Anything that does not agree with what "Our Church" teaches.


This is just a small list of what theword "cult" means to some folks...

That being said, probably most of us would be in a "cult" by the broadest use of the term.

I see a cult [to me] as a group that twists doctrine, and scripture to show "they" are right and one must follow them>

This is very broad of course and open for discussion of course.

i do not think that a group of believers that state YHWH, YHVH, Yahweh is the Father's name is a cult. [Just because of that statement]

Nor do i think because someone call the Father by His title [God], or Elohim, is a cult.

For the purpose of this thread...another cult..

Im assuming the author Brother Dale means [and one would have to ask him], The Berean Bible Society, Following in the footsteps of E>W> Bullinger.. C.R. Stam, and J.C. o'Hair followed with this line of thought [some call] Ultra or Extreme , dispensationalism....


Early Ultradispensationalism, such as that promoted by Sir Robert Anderson and E.W. Bullinger in his early years, emphasized a dispensational boundary line at Acts 28:28, but did not apply this boundary line to the Epistles of Paul, viewing them as a whole whether or not they were written before or after Acts 28:28. When the young Charles Welch pointed out the inherent contradiction in this to E.W. Bullinger, Bullinger changed his views, and incorporated the dividing line into his teachings on the Epistles of Paul that were written from that point forward and which became universally known as Ultradispensationalism. Since the majority of his work was written before this point, however, many of his writings view Paul’s Epistles as an unbroken whole. Later adherents of Ultradispensationalism writers, such as Stuart Allen, Oscar Baker, and Otis Sellers, all followed the example of Charles Welch and E.W. Bullinger’s later work in applying the division to Paul’s books as well as the book of Acts in the true spirit of Ultradispensationalism.


See wikepedia @

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultradispensationalism

This is two differences in the view;


Post Acts Dispensationalists
There is also division of the “grace” movement, who might be called “Post-Acts Dispensationalists”, that neither believe that the church began after the Acts nor identify the body of Christ as the mystery of Ephesians 3 and Colossians 1.

“Post-Acts Dispensationalists”, do not differ with the Mid-Acts position, in that they believe the church began with the Apostle Paul (Saul) in Acts 9. This is based on Paul’s statement in 1 Timothy 1:16 where he claims, "that in me first, Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."(KJV), and at least eight references to the body in Romans and 1 Corinthians. Where the split occurs is in differing positions as to when the dispensation of grace begins. The Mid-Acts position begins it in either Acts 13, where Saul becomes Paul, or Acts 15 where James charges Paul to go to the Gentiles. Another difference is in the identification of what the mystery is, and what it affected. The post-Acts position holds that the mystery of Ephesians and Colossians is the grace dispensation, which effectively dispensed with "the law of commandments...the ordinances that was against us"(Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14), in order to bring those saved into the body during Paul's Acts ministry, with those like the Ephesians and Colossians, into one fellowship, "the one new man...the fellowship of the mystery."(Eph.2:16;3:9) In this new unified body, all the practices ordained for the Acts church, which was decidedly Jewish/covenantal, were abolished with the “revelation of the mystery” (Romans 16:25) of Ephesians and Colossians.[2]

[edit] Mid-Acts Dispensationalists
Mid-Acts Dispensationalists believe the Church of this dispensation began with Paul, between Acts 9 and Acts 13. There are several reasons for this belief. Notably, Paul says that a dispensation was given to him which was called a mystery (Col 1:25-26). Paul says the gospel he preaches was "kept secret since the world began" (Rom 16:25). This is often contrasted to Peter's preaching which is said to be "spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21). Also, Paul was referred to as "the" apostle of the Gentiles (Rom 11:11-13; Rom 15:16; Eph 3:1-2; compare Gal 2:7-9). In addition, Paul states that "the dispensation of...grace" was given to him (Eph 3:2; c.f., 1Cor 9:17; Col 1:25). Spokesmen for this viewpoint include J. C. O'Hair, Bob Hill (The Big Difference), C. R. Stam (Things That Differ), Major R. B. Withers ("The Greek Scriptures"), Charles F. Baker (A Dispensational Theology), and Bob Enyart (The Plot).

While adherents to the Mid-Acts Position agree that all Scripture is profitable (2Tim 3:16), in general, Mid-Acts Dispensationalists do not believe that the doctrine in the General Epistles (James through Jude) is for the participation of the church today. Instead, they believe these epistles (along with the four Gospels) will mostly apply to future Israel, after she repents and returns to the Lord during the Tribulation. Note that the term hyper or ultra-dispensationalist is not one that most Mid-Acts Dispensationalists would apply to themselves (although admittedly "more dispensational" than mainstream dispensationalists), yet they do tend to apply it to their Acts 28 brethren, who are viewed as taking dispensational concepts still further.

Shared views
In addition to their distinctive views on the applicability of many of the New Testament books, most hyper-dispensationalists hold unique views on what are commonly held as sacraments (which some term “ordinances”). Neither holds to the ordinance of water baptism, as they assert this has been supplanted by “one baptism”, the “baptism by the Holy Spirit” [1 Cor 12:13; Eph 4:4-6]. While most practice the ordinance of the Lord’s Supper; a few may not, in part from Paul’s post-Acts epistles, in which he states that the church today is no longer under any ordinances (Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14; Col. 2:20).

Wikepedia reference link above:


This to me is a problem, and by the term "cult" given above,, Is teaching false doctrine, while many points given are true...

Discounting the gospels for the "church" today is false.

No water baptism...is false

Some even do not partake of the "Lords Supper....is false


All one has to do is read what they teach, and line it up with scripture to see it dont fit....

Study out these scriptures.....


1.Mark 4:11 (Whole Chapter)
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:


2.Romans 11:25 (Whole Chapter)
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


3.Romans 16:25 (Whole Chapter)
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,


4.1 Corinthians 2:7 (Whole Chapter)
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


5.1 Corinthians 15:51 (Whole Chapter)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


6.Ephesians 1:9 (Whole Chapter)
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:


7.Ephesians 3:3 (Whole Chapter)
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,


8.Ephesians 3:4 (Whole Chapter)
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


9.Ephesians 3:9 (Whole Chapter)
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


10.Ephesians 5:32 (Whole Chapter)
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


11.Ephesians 6:19 (Whole Chapter)
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,


12.Colossians 1:26 (Whole Chapter)
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:


13.Colossians 1:27 (Whole Chapter)
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


14.Colossians 2:2 (Whole Chapter)
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;


15.Colossians 4:3 (Whole Chapter)
Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:


16.2 Thessalonians 2:7 (Whole Chapter)
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


17.1 Timothy 3:9 (Whole Chapter)
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.


18.1 Timothy 3:16 (Whole Chapter)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


19.Revelation 1:20 (Whole Chapter)
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


20.Revelation 10:7 (Whole Chapter)
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


Romans 16:


25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.


Colossians 1
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

4Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

7As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;

8Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

9For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

10That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

11Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

29Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.


Seach out the scriptures...peeps [Smile]
work calls

[hug] [type]
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Watchman Expositor definition of cult:

Christians generally have a doctrinal component to their use of the word. Cult in this sense, is a counterfeit or serious deviation from the doctrines of classical Christianity. Watchman Fellowship usually uses the term cult with a Christian or doctrinal definition in mind. In most cases the group claims to be Christian, but because of their aberrant beliefs on central doctrines of the faith (God, Jesus, and salvation), the organization is not considered by Watchman Fellowship to be part of orthodox, biblical Christianity.
 
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Every jot and tittle of His Word is living Water for my soul, a lamp unto my feet.

2 Tim 3:
14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul was not writing to Timothy of his writings but of ALL of God's glorious Word.

The Ethiopean eunuch was reading from Isaiah, when Brother Phillip preached the Gospel.

All of the New Testament was written to Blood-bought, Born-again children of the Living God. The Book of Luke and Acts was written to the Greeks. The Book of Matthew was written to the Jews and thus we find the passages which say,"Kingdom of Heaven" rather than "Kingdom of God" because of the Jewish sensitivity to the use of God's name.

The Gospel which was preached on the day of Pentecost, at which time 3000 of our Believing Brethern came to Christ, is the same Gospel preached by Phillip, John, and Paul. Our Lord declared:

John 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 3:
13: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14: But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15: And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16: And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17: And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18: But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20: And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22: For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23: And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24: Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25: Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26: Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 8:
5: Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6: And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7: For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8: And there was great joy in that city.

Acts 11:
12: And the spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13: And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14: Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15: And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16: Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17: Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18: When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
19: Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
20: And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.
21: And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.
22: Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
23: Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
24: For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
25: Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
26: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
27: And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28: And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
29: Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
30: Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.


The Holy Ghost who inspired the sacred writings of Paul to Believers is the same Spirit of Truth who inspired the sacred writings of the Gospels, the Book of Acts, the entire New Testament, to Believers, our Brethren who spread forth from the Day of Pentecost. To propose a Pauline Dispensation, and to separate the Brethren on the day of Pentecost from the Brethren under Paul's apostleship, is a wresting of scripture. The Church Age, the Dispensation of Grace began with the empowering of the 120 in the Upper Room, and will conclude with our Glorious Reuniuon with our Lord in the air.

Acts 1:
3: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5: For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6: When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7: And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Acts 2:
21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Dispensationalism

http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006809
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Yes Carol and Berean Bible Society is from the mid acts E. W. Bullinger line..
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
wildb states:

quote:
GodBless u and yours bigc ,

Dispensationalism is a Protestant evangelical tradition and theology based on a biblical hermeneutic that sees a series of chronologically successive "dispensations" or periods in history in which God relates to human beings in different ways under different Biblical covenants. all Bereans hold to a pretribulation rapture.

I shall go the way of Kingo, and let the ST berbarry/and other sillyness learn the next generation here.

Plow on Berry, plow on.

I will have no part of his "we"!

U all can jam me all U wan't but I know that this pitily disention does not show forth the simplicity that is in one's faith in Christ.

Simplicity that is in one's faith in Christ!

I take full responsibility for the confusions of these post.

Ok Berry and Because I stand down.


U have taken this BBS BOARDS left tower guard captive.

I am part of my Lords Body, his temple.


Till my last breath.


What have U boys really won?


again bill states:

quote:
You know Because , if you had any kind of Spiritual Class and a true knowledge of Christ you would delete this post until you and your boy are TRUTHFULLY educated to the Bereans.

Then I will debate you both with one lobe tied behind my 3 cheek and kicky all 4 of your cheeks.


Bill do you believe on should be water baptized after being "born again"?
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
More Berean Bible Society false teachings:


quote:
FACT NO. 2—That the DISTINCTIVENESS of Pauline truth is a most important doctrine of the Bible. The risen Lord Jesus Christ revealed His heart and His mind to the Apostle Paul: "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it but by THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" (Gal. 1:11,12). "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward; how that BY REVELATION He made known unto me the MYSTERY..." (Eph. 3:2,3).

This proves conclusively that Paul did not preach what the 12 Apostles preached. Rather he went up to Jerusalem to TELL THEM of the special gospel of grace that Christ gave to him (Gal. 2:2). He preached Jesus Christ according to the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY which was kept secret, hid in God (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:9). He was the Apostle to the Gentiles and magnified his office (Rom. 11:13).


Further false teachings by the berean bible society:

quote:
In Jesus' day, those who sought after signs were called an evil and adulterous generation (Matt. 12:39). The eight miracles of the Gospel of John are properly called SIGNS, which included the rising of Lazarus from the dead; and in the commission of Mark 16:15-18, water baptism is associated with SIGNS. This is proved in the book of Acts because everywhere water baptism is mentioned a SIGN is mentioned in the immediate context.

This present age is a signless age. We have been blessed with all SPIRITUAL blessings in the heavenlies in Christ (Eph. 1:3). This is where the emphasis lies for the Christian.


read more on thier false website:


http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
More false teachings by Cornelious Stam:


quote:
The Teachings of Jesus
By Cornelius R. Stam


In the controversy over "Pauline truth," not a few Fundamentalists have joined Modernists in attempting to exalt "the teachings of Jesus" (on earth) above the Word of God through Paul. "Which," they ask, "should bear the greater weight with us, the words of Jesus, or the words of Paul?"

But do they ask this because they truly desire to obey these "words of Jesus" and to see them obeyed? No, for they flagrantly disregard and disobey them, from the Sermon on the Mount to the Great Commission.

With regard to the Sermon on the Mount, they do not subject themselves to the law of Moses (Matt. 5:17-19); they do not bring gifts to altars of sacrifice (5:23,24); they do not give freely to all who ask of them (5:42; 10:8,9); they do not refrain from laying up treasures on earth (6:19,25,26); they do not sell what they have and give alms (Luke 6:30; 12:33).

And while professing obedience to the so-called "Great Commission" as "the Church's marching orders," they do not proclaim faith and baptism for salvation (Mark 16:16); they do not—they cannot—perform miraculous signs (Mark 16:17,18); they do not give the Jew first place in their ministry (Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8), and they certainly do not teach others to observe all things that Messiah on earth commanded (Matt. 28:20 cf. 23:1-3).

They set "the teachings of Jesus" (on earth) over against "the teachings of Paul," not because they are determined to obey Jesus, but because they are determined to minimize that which God has "magnified"—the authority of Paul as "the apostle of the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:13).

They seek to exalt the teachings of the earthly Jesus above those of Paul because they have closed their ears to the oft-repeated and Spirit-inspired claims of Paul that the glorified Lord spoke again from heaven, to and through him, committing to him "the dispensation of the grace of God" and the program for the day in which we live (Acts 20:24; 22:6-10,17-21; 26:12-18; Rom. 11:13; 15:15,16; 16:25,26; I Cor. 3:10; 11:23; 15:3; II Cor. 5:16; Gal. 1:1,11,12; 2:7-9; Eph. 3:1-4,8,9; 6:18-20; Phil. 4:9; Col. 1:23-27; I Thes. 4:15; II Thes. 3:14; I Tim. 2:5-7; II Tim. 2:7-9; Titus 1:2,3, etc.).

They have forgotten the stern rebuke the Galatians received for failing to recognize Paul's teachings as a message from the risen, exalted Christ (Gal. 1:6-12). They have taken lightly Paul's words to the Corinthians:

"...if I come again I will not spare: since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me..." (II Cor. 13:2,3).

They have distorted Paul's inspired admonition as to his own writings:

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing...from such withdraw thyself" (I Tim. 6:3-5).



 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Barry,

You reject the teaching of Paul because he said not to judge one another over days of worship. You want to be a Jew first and then a Christian and your teachings differ from Paul so this puts you at odds with the Bible.

Every post you are trying to sneak in your teaching of being a Jew and then a Christian. Your teachings are wrong and you are misleading people with your post.

betty
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
betty [Confused] states:

quote:

Advanced Member
Member # 7175

posted October 22, 2010 09:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry,

You reject the teaching of Paul because he said not to judge one another over days of worship. You want to be a Jew first and then a Christian and your teachings differ from Paul so this puts you at odds with the Bible.

Every post you are trying to sneak in your teaching of being a Jew and then a Christian. Your teachings are wrong and you are misleading people with your post.

betty


No i dont reject Paul's teachings...I just do not as the cult of the Berean bible society rejects Christ's teachings:

Thats simply not true betty, do you even read these posts???


the berean bible society rejects, water baptism, the teachings of [Jesus] as not for the present day church, most all of acts, and so on...


Read sister, pay attention, look at the materials..ask your pastor....
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
stam the false teacher said:


quote:
They seek to exalt the teachings of the earthly Jesus above those of Paul because they have closed their ears to the oft-repeated and Spirit-inspired claims of Paul that the glorified Lord spoke again from heaven, to and through him, committing to him "the dispensation of the grace of God" and the program for the day in which we live
another wolf in sheeps clothing.....
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/BBS.pdf

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine....”

this is on their web site. It does not sound like they are rejecting the book of Acts to me.
betty
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Betty states:
quote:
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine....”

this is on their web site. It does not sound like they are rejecting the book of Acts to me.
betty


Read Sister Betty;


Post Acts Dispensationalists
There is also division of the “grace” movement, who might be called “Post-Acts Dispensationalists”, that neither believe that the church began after the Acts nor identify the body of Christ as the mystery of Ephesians 3 and Colossians 1.

“Post-Acts Dispensationalists”, do not differ with the Mid-Acts position, in that they believe the church began with the Apostle Paul (Saul) in Acts 9. This is based on Paul’s statement in 1 Timothy 1:16 where he claims, "that in me first, Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."(KJV), and at least eight references to the body in Romans and 1 Corinthians. Where the split occurs is in differing positions as to when the dispensation of grace begins. The Mid-Acts position begins it in either Acts 13, where Saul becomes Paul, or Acts 15 where James charges Paul to go to the Gentiles. Another difference is in the identification of what the mystery is, and what it affected. The post-Acts position holds that the mystery of Ephesians and Colossians is the grace dispensation, which effectively dispensed with "the law of commandments...the ordinances that was against us"(Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14), in order to bring those saved into the body during Paul's Acts ministry, with those like the Ephesians and Colossians, into one fellowship, "the one new man...the fellowship of the mystery."(Eph.2:16;3:9) In this new unified body, all the practices ordained for the Acts church, which was decidedly Jewish/covenantal, were abolished with the “revelation of the mystery” (Romans 16:25) of Ephesians and Colossians.[2]

[edit] Mid-Acts Dispensationalists
Mid-Acts Dispensationalists believe the Church of this dispensation began with Paul, between Acts 9 and Acts 13. There are several reasons for this belief. Notably, Paul says that a dispensation was given to him which was called a mystery (Col 1:25-26). Paul says the gospel he preaches was "kept secret since the world began" (Rom 16:25). This is often contrasted to Peter's preaching which is said to be "spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21). Also, Paul was referred to as "the" apostle of the Gentiles (Rom 11:11-13; Rom 15:16; Eph 3:1-2; compare Gal 2:7-9). In addition, Paul states that "the dispensation of...grace" was given to him (Eph 3:2; c.f., 1Cor 9:17; Col 1:25). Spokesmen for this viewpoint include J. C. O'Hair, Bob Hill (The Big Difference), C. R. Stam (Things That Differ), Major R. B. Withers ("The Greek Scriptures"), Charles F. Baker (A Dispensational Theology), and Bob Enyart (The Plot).

While adherents to the Mid-Acts Position agree that all Scripture is profitable (2Tim 3:16), in general, Mid-Acts Dispensationalists do not believe that the doctrine in the General Epistles (James through Jude) is for the participation of the church today. Instead, they believe these epistles (along with the four Gospels) will mostly apply to future Israel, after she repents and returns to the Lord during the Tribulation. Note that the term hyper or ultra-dispensationalist is not one that most Mid-Acts Dispensationalists would apply to themselves (although admittedly "more dispensational" than mainstream dispensationalists), yet they do tend to apply it to their Acts 28 brethren, who are viewed as taking dispensational concepts still further.

Shared views
In addition to their distinctive views on the applicability of many of the New Testament books, most hyper-dispensationalists hold unique views on what are commonly held as sacraments (which some term “ordinances”). Neither holds to the ordinance of water baptism, as they assert this has been supplanted by “one baptism”, the “baptism by the Holy Spirit” [1 Cor 12:13; Eph 4:4-6]. While most practice the ordinance of the Lord’s Supper; a few may not, in part from Paul’s post-Acts epistles, in which he states that the church today is no longer under any ordinances (Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14; Col. 2:20).

Wikepedia reference link above:


Also ask bill if he believes as the berean cult does..NO Water Baptism????

Just on thing, but they think that only Pauls teaching are relevant for the "church" today... I feel the WHOLE bible is....
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
there site says ALL SCRIPTURE
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Betty this is also thier website...go read for your self!!!


http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
From what I can see they are not a cult. I do not believe like the Church of Christ that Baptism is a requirement for salvation but I do believe in water Baptism.
Barry teaching that a Christian should keep the Jewish laws is much more of a cult then the Berean Bible Society is. I think that as long as you push Saturday worship or keeping the Jewish laws you are in no position to call another group a cult.
betty
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
wildbill

quote:
WildB

Advanced Member
Member # 2917

posted October 22, 2010 09:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by barrykind:
Betty this is also thier website...go read for your self!!!


http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So berry , the one from the cult,

Lol.




--------------------
That is all.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3598 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |

this will be reported ihave children that read things on this board..

[ October 23, 2010, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Carol Swenson ]
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
there site says ALL SCRIPTURE

Betty is right. This is a quote from their website.

quote:
While many Grace pastors preach and write about Paul's epistles (which they certainly should do), some of them unfortunately neglect the rest of the Bible. This leaves many Grace folks having to get their instruction on the General Epistles from teachers who do not understand Paul's unique apostleship and message. While we certainly want to emphasize the teaching and preaching of the dispensation of the grace of God committed to the Apostle Paul, we do not want to neglect the other Scriptures because we know that "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." Our goal should be to know and understand the entire Bible in light of Paul's gospel.

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/epistles.html

barrykind, The Berean Bible Society is not listed as a cult. For you to continue saying they are is not only false, but is a deliberate cruelty of heart calculated to provoke certain people. Your opinion of the B.B.S. is only that...it is your OPINION. Nothing more.


Galatians 5
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
stam the false teacher said:


quote:
They seek to exalt the teachings of the earthly Jesus above those of Paul because they have closed their ears to the oft-repeated and Spirit-inspired claims of Paul that the glorified Lord spoke again from heaven, to and through him, committing to him "the dispensation of the grace of God" and the program for the day in which we live
another wolf in sheeps clothing.....
You didn't quote the entire message, and failed to provide a link to it. I will quote the next paragraph Stam wrote:

quote:
But do they ask this because they truly desire to obey these "words of Jesus" and to see them obeyed? No, for they flagrantly disregard and disobey them, from the Sermon on the Mount to the Great Commission.


and the last part of Stam's message:

quote:
They have distorted Paul's inspired admonition as to his own writings:

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing...from such withdraw thyself" (I Tim. 6:3-5).


http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1084472576.html
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Carol States;


quote:
You didn't quote the entire message, and failed to provide a link to it. I will quote the next paragraph Stam wrote:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But do they ask this because they truly desire to obey these "words of Jesus" and to see them obeyed? No, for they flagrantly disregard and disobey them, from the Sermon on the Mount to the Great Commission.


Yes i posted the link:


http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
This is the article in its entireity:


Seven Basic Bible Facts
Every Christian Should Know and Believe
By Robert C. Brock

Editor of the Journal of Pauline Dispensationalism


FACT NO. 1—That the Bible MUST be rightly divided in order for it to make sense. Notice what it says: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the Word of truth" (II Tim. 2:15). This is one of the cardinal rules for interpreting the whole Bible. Neglect of this rule or a faulty use of it will lead to only one result, CONFUSION, since our God is not the author of confusion.

The reason for a right division of the Bible is because of God's two distinct purposes: (1) His purpose concerning Israel and the world according to PROPHECY, and (2) His purpose concerning the Gentiles in this present age according to the MYSTERY revealed to Paul. God doesn't want us to confuse the teaching of these two purposes. He has very graciously given us the key for a proper understanding of this.

FACT NO. 2—That the DISTINCTIVENESS of Pauline truth is a most important doctrine of the Bible. The risen Lord Jesus Christ revealed His heart and His mind to the Apostle Paul: "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it but by THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" (Gal. 1:11,12). "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward; how that BY REVELATION He made known unto me the MYSTERY..." (Eph. 3:2,3).

This proves conclusively that Paul did not preach what the 12 Apostles preached. Rather he went up to Jerusalem to TELL THEM of the special gospel of grace that Christ gave to him (Gal. 2:2). He preached Jesus Christ according to the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY which was kept secret, hid in God (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:9). He was the Apostle to the Gentiles and magnified his office (Rom. 11:13).

FACT NO. 3—That the gospel we are to preach is called the Gospel of the grace of God. "But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy and the ministry which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD" (Acts 20:24). This is God's only message for the lost in this present age. We are to follow Paul as he followed Christ (I Cor. 11:1). In his writings ALONE do we find the doctrine, position, walk, and destiny of the Christian.

Some other important aspects of grace are:

1. We are saved by GRACE—Eph. 2:8,9.

2. We are justified freely by His GRACE—Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7.

3. His GRACE is sufficient for us—II Cor. 12:9.

4. We are not under Law but under GRACE—Rom. 6:14,15.

5. This age is the age of GRACE —Eph. 3:2.

6. We are to approach the throne of GRACE in prayer—Heb. 4:16.

FACT NO. 4—That the Bible definitely teaches that water baptism was and is a part of Israel's religion (Heb. 6:1,2; 9:10). It was for the remission of sins and was by sprinkling (Mark 1:4; Acts 2:38; Ezek. 36:25).

In this age there is only ONE baptism, not two: "One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM" (Eph. 4:5). This baptism is the placing of the Christian into the Church, the Body of Christ, by the Holy Spirit: "For by one SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (I Cor. 12:13). This baptism takes place once for all at the time of salvation.

The Apostle Paul was not sent to baptize with water: "For Christ sent me NOT TO BAPTIZE but to preach the gospel..." (I Cor. 1:17). Only a change in God's purpose would necessitate a statement like this. There is no importance attached to water baptism, today. It is not a part of Christianity and only causes confusion.

FACT NO. 5—That we must understand the two-fold ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ. During His earthly ministry He ministered exclusively to Israel: "But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL" (Matt. 15:24). His whole ministry to the Nation was under the Law of Moses (Matt. 5:17; Gal. 4:4,5). Christians are not under the Law so we are not to live according to Israel's teachings.

During His present ministry in Heaven, He is ministering according to what He revealed to the Apostle Paul. He is saving men according to His gospel of Grace. He is at the throne of grace making intercession for us (Rom. 8:34). We are to live in Paul's epistles where pure Christianity is found. This is not to say we should neglect the rest of the Bible. It is ALL for us but not all TO us (I Cor. 10:6,11).

FACT NO. 6—That SIGNS belong to the Nation of Israel and its religion: "For the JEWS REQUIRE A SIGN, and the Gentiles seek after wisdom" (I Cor. 1:22). Speaking in tongues is a SIGN: "Wherefore TONGUES are for a SIGN, not to them that believe but to them that believe not..." (I Cor. 14:22).

In Jesus' day, those who sought after signs were called an evil and adulterous generation (Matt. 12:39). The eight miracles of the Gospel of John are properly called SIGNS, which included the rising of Lazarus from the dead; and in the commission of Mark 16:15-18, water baptism is associated with SIGNS. This is proved in the book of Acts because everywhere water baptism is mentioned a SIGN is mentioned in the immediate context.

This present age is a signless age. We have been blessed with all SPIRITUAL blessings in the heavenlies in Christ (Eph. 1:3). This is where the emphasis lies for the Christian.

FACT NO. 7—That the COMMISSION the Church, the Body of Christ, is to work under, is found in II Corinthians 5:14-21 and Ephesians 3:9. The Kingdom commission of Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15-18 does not belong to God's present grace purpose. The message of reconciliation has been committed to US, the Body of Christ.

RESULTS:

1. The Christian would begin to perceive and grasp the deep things of God (I Cor. 2:10-12).

2. There would be a wonderful growth into spiritual maturity and adulthood (Eph. 4:12-15).

3. He would become a faithful steward of the mysteries of God (I Cor. 2:7; 4:1,2).

4. He would possess the Biblical answer to Satan's false cults like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Unitarians, Modernists, etc. They all borrow some aspects of Israel's religion.

5. A mighty revival would take place if Christians would get back to Pauline truth.

My friend, if you are not saved, the grace of God invites you to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour. You are a sinner and need to be saved (Rom. 3:23). "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:31). "...now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation" (II Cor. 6:2). It is infinitely better to receive Him and spend eternity in Heaven than to reject Him and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire!

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
As far as "cult" the very title of this thread is "another cult Berean Bible Society"


we disscussed cult and the meanings thereof...

The reason i see the Berean Bible Society as a cult...

Ultra dispensationalism..

Saying only Pauls words are for the "church" today.

Discounting Yahushua's [Jesus] teachings as not for the church.

James, Jude, Gospels (4), most of Acts, were for the Jews [Israel] not for the "church" of today.

Water baptism is no longer for the "church" today.

Et.;El; and other things.


Im a "cult' most of yall think, because i brought up subjects, like we should "Remember" the Sabbath and Keep it Holy.

I also think that we should "keep" the commandments. Which i have explained are written on our hearts and if we walk in the Spirit we can do that.

I also dont believe that one can be saved "born again", born from above, receive the LORD'S Spirit; and live like the devil and go to heaven.
OSAS..like Charles Stanley and others teach.

I believe that signs , such as healing, tongues, and the like are still here today.

i believe that the 5 fold ministry still is effect today.....
Apostles, Evangelists, Prophets, Pastors, and Teachers.

i do not believe the way that the "TRINITY" is taught today...Co-Equal, co Existent etc.

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him


Also again the word states:

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.



So such as most teach the "trinity" is not in line with the Bible..

My little tiny mind is overwhelmed with such and how "the word became flesh" and dwelt amoung us is to deep for me...

i have never stated a "church" affiliation, nor stated where i attend "worship" and im called a "cult", and also trying to proystelyte [sp] folks to mine and "Dales", Shauls's, and Daniels church.. i know Dale for 30+ years, a finer man i personally know of only 1 other with the integrity and honest heart than BROTHER DALE.

Brother Dale is a "man" after Gods heart...
We live about a 100 miles apart and do not attend "church" together.

The others on this baord at current time i do not know.

I can see Brother Daniels Heart...he loves God!

Any way ..side tracked a little.

The Berean Bible Society teaches a false doctrine as i see it; and which enturn, a FALSE GOSPEL...

When you state that only the Pauline Letters and the"mystery" that Paul was taught superceeds what Christ Yahushua [Jesus] taught and those writings [Christs, and others except Paul] are not for the "body of Christ" today...My goodness Sister [not a nun] Carol and Sister Betty and others.do yall too believe that?

That Society is a group that was much stronger in the 40's and 50's but has truly dwindeled as of today..[i read], but have drifted from truth.

i dearly love Paul and his writings [scripture] but it is a blend with all of the Word of YHWH!

we get in trouble when we pick and choose scripture..
i try to look at all of scripture...i dont understand many, many things......

Bill has shown his true colors; he is a name called and made himself a judge..

You can state that one has "lied" and prove your point; but to call "Christ" a liar; and any "person" [such he did me] you have became a judge and condemned that one to hell...FOR ALL LIARS have thier part in the "lake of fire", and WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God!

Serious accusation!

Repent of that Brother...
Do not let me or anyone or anything let a root of bitterness spring up in your heart..

We can discuss these matters civily..

The word tells us to render unto Ceaser what is ceaser's....

2) You state if i remember right that Romans 13 is civil government...[i personally think that it is "church" govt.].

If it is civil government then render unto your govt, as is its due? right

But to answer the direct question youask me, Do i pay taxes?

i wondered about this for quite some time, agonizing over the very same thing you ask me...

i received peace from Yahushua on the matter:

My current income i pay in about 20-100 dollars a year to the IRS. Onmy tax returns because of my children and earned income credits i receive in return about $8,000.00 a year.
Sonone of my earned money goes to abortion, Endowment for the arts etc, etc.

But i leagally "render unto Ceaser" what is his, and he gets none!

i dont really like conterversy believe it or not, but i will defend the words of Yahushua as feebly as i can to the end.

im not nowor never have been associated with :

The seventh day adventist
Armstrong, none of them
Mormons
Jehova witness
Roman Catholics and most all other denominations [divisions]

i have attended many, many, many different denoms [divisions] in the "body of Christ" and dont fit any of them, from Primitive Bap, Southern Baptist, Assb, Of God, Holiness, Apostolic, UPC, Dont fit

Many have lots of truth, none can agree...
Your either a sheep or a goat to me, in the body or not!

Just like a family, not everyone is at the same level of truth, certainly not that i have attained, but i press on.

There are certain things i can walk with and understand such as tribulation, i see where Bettey, Carol and some of you come from, dont agree but it is not a doctrine to say that you all "are not saved", and there are many things like this that is not critical to "salvation" to me anyways.

But to say that Yahushua's word in the gospels, and everything but what Paul states is "NOT" for the church today..i cant live with that..

Thats "ANOTHER" Gospel to me...mid acts, pre acts and post acts [Ultra], [Hyper] and those other words for ultra dispensationalism, discounting the words of everybody but Paul, does not blend with YHWH's word the bible, where all scripture is given for doctrine, etc., etc.


Perhaps i said enough..

in love

[hug]
barry
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
What does the Berean Bible Society believe?
An excellent question! Here is a copy of our doctrinal statement:


WE BELIEVE:
1) The verbal inspiration and plenary authority of the BIBLE in its original writings.

2) The eternal trinity of the GODHEAD.

3) The eternal deity, virgin birth, vicarious death, and spotless humanity of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

4) MANKIND by nature is sinful and under the condemnation of God.

5) Personal SALVATION is by God’s grace, through faith in the crucified, risen, and glorified Christ.

6) The ETERNAL SECURITY of all the saved.

7) The personality and deity of the HOLY SPIRIT.

8) The essential unity of all believers of the present dispensation as members of the one true Church, the BODY OF CHRIST.

9) The GIFTS enumerated in Ephesians 4:7-16, have been given for the building up of the Body of Christ, and of these, only evangelists, pastors, and teachers are in order during the present dispensation. The sign gifts of the Acts period were temporary in character, and have ceased.

10) The privilege and duty of all the saved to WALK by faith as children of light.

11) The Communion of the LORD’S SUPPER as revealed through Paul for the members of the Body of Christ “TILL HE COME.”

12) All believers are made members of the Body of Christ by One Divine BAPTISM, by which also they are identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. In the light of I Corinthians 1:17, Ephesians 4:5. and Colossians 2:12, we affirm that water baptism has no place in God’s spiritual program for the Body of Christ in this dispensation of grace.

13) The RESURRECTION of the Body.

14) The Pretribulation RAPTURE of the Church.

15) The personal, premillennial RETURN OF CHRIST to reign on earth.

16) The ETERNAL PUNISHMENT of the unsaved dead.

17) The MYSTERY “Hid in God” was the divine purpose to make of Jew and Gentile a whole new thing, that is, the Church, which is Christ’s Body. The revelation of this Mystery was committed to Paul, and it is in his writings alone that we find the doctrine, position, walk and destiny of the Church.


3. What is a "berean" anyway?
Thanks for asking. We get asked that a lot. Being called a Berean comes from Acts 17:10-11. In verse 11 it says that those from Berea (hence, the Bereans) were nobler than the people in Thessalonica because they "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

So, when we say that someone is a "Berean" we mean that they do two things: (1) They have an open mind and willingly receive the Word of God when it is taught to them and (2) But then, they check out what they were taught by comparing it with the Scriptures.

Both aspects are important. Some people are so closed minded that they will not even listen to anything new or that might threaten what they already know. Others are so gullible that they accept whatever is told them without ever checking it against what the Bible says. Both extremes are to be avoided.

A Berean is one who has a balanced viewpoint. We listen to what someone has to say because we are eager to learn the word of God more perfectly. We realize that we have not learned it all. But then, we take what we have heard and compare it with the Bible. Then, if both match, we have learned something and increased our knowledge of God's Word, rightly divided.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Yes, and the Berean Bible Society is NOT ultradispensational. They do NOT agree with or accept Bullinger.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Carol States;


quote:
You didn't quote the entire message, and failed to provide a link to it. I will quote the next paragraph Stam wrote:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But do they ask this because they truly desire to obey these "words of Jesus" and to see them obeyed? No, for they flagrantly disregard and disobey them, from the Sermon on the Mount to the Great Commission.


Yes i posted the link:


http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html

I used the quote icon to copy your post exactly in my previous comment, and this one. The link to that message was not there.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
I have read the doctrinal statement.

Do you believe in water baptism bill?

Yes the doctrinal staement says:

quote:
1) The verbal inspiration and plenary authority of the BIBLE in its original writings.


Yes they do believe , but do not think that the 4 gospels, and most all letters {[except] Pail's letters} are for the "church" today...

Read what C. Stam, J.C. O'Hair have published..
Yes the believe the "whole" bilbe is inspired word, but that most all is not for us today!


also their doctranal statement says:

quote:
9) The GIFTS enumerated in Ephesians 4:7-16, have been given for the building up of the Body of Christ, and of these, only evangelists, pastors, and teachers are in order during the present dispensation. The sign gifts of the Acts period were temporary in character, and have ceased.


Not what the bible says:

Eph: 4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:



This some call "5 fold" ministry will be entact til when "we all come to the unity of the faith"..has not happened as yet, and when it does they (5-fold) will then cease...so all are still in effet today!

Do you believe in water baptism bill?

 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
This is the article in its entireity:


Seven Basic Bible Facts
Every Christian Should Know and Believe
By Robert C. Brock

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html


That is NOT the article!!! That is an article written by Robert Brock! You call Stam a false teacher then quote an article written by Brock. How does that work?

This is the article written by Stam:

The Teachings of Jesus
By Cornelius R. Stam

In the controversy over "Pauline truth," not a few Fundamentalists have joined Modernists in attempting to exalt "the teachings of Jesus" (on earth) above the Word of God through Paul. "Which," they ask, "should bear the greater weight with us, the words of Jesus, or the words of Paul?"

But do they ask this because they truly desire to obey these "words of Jesus" and to see them obeyed? No, for they flagrantly disregard and disobey them, from the Sermon on the Mount to the Great Commission.

With regard to the Sermon on the Mount, they do not subject themselves to the law of Moses (Matt. 5:17-19); they do not bring gifts to altars of sacrifice (5:23,24); they do not give freely to all who ask of them (5:42; 10:8,9); they do not refrain from laying up treasures on earth (6:19,25,26); they do not sell what they have and give alms (Luke 6:30; 12:33).

And while professing obedience to the so-called "Great Commission" as "the Church's marching orders," they do not proclaim faith and baptism for salvation (Mark 16:16); they do not—they cannot—perform miraculous signs (Mark 16:17,18); they do not give the Jew first place in their ministry (Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8), and they certainly do not teach others to observe all things that Messiah on earth commanded (Matt. 28:20 cf. 23:1-3).

They set "the teachings of Jesus" (on earth) over against "the teachings of Paul," not because they are determined to obey Jesus, but because they are determined to minimize that which God has "magnified"—the authority of Paul as "the apostle of the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:13).

They seek to exalt the teachings of the earthly Jesus above those of Paul because they have closed their ears to the oft-repeated and Spirit-inspired claims of Paul that the glorified Lord spoke again from heaven, to and through him, committing to him "the dispensation of the grace of God" and the program for the day in which we live (Acts 20:24; 22:6-10,17-21; 26:12-18; Rom. 11:13; 15:15,16; 16:25,26; I Cor. 3:10; 11:23; 15:3; II Cor. 5:16; Gal. 1:1,11,12; 2:7-9; Eph. 3:1-4,8,9; 6:18-20; Phil. 4:9; Col. 1:23-27; I Thes. 4:15; II Thes. 3:14; I Tim. 2:5-7; II Tim. 2:7-9; Titus 1:2,3, etc.).

They have forgotten the stern rebuke the Galatians received for failing to recognize Paul's teachings as a message from the risen, exalted Christ (Gal. 1:6-12). They have taken lightly Paul's words to the Corinthians:

"...if I come again I will not spare: since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me..." (II Cor. 13:2,3).

They have distorted Paul's inspired admonition as to his own writings:

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing...from such withdraw thyself" (I Tim. 6:3-5).

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1084472576.html
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Sorry BigC it took so long 2 get back 2 you all Had 2 help friend drag a doe out of the woods and if I want it I have to tag and gut. Still deciding if I wan't 2 get all bloody.

Well I still have room in the freez. I got 2 go and get bloody again...yeuck!

I be back later 2 play with barry. Thanx for keeping the truth forward.
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Carol,

When Barry cannot prove his comments with facts, he tries to confuse the issue with junk from other sources.
betty
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Hi Betty. Hmmmmm....I'll have to try that some time [Big Grin]

quote:
Do you believe in water baptism bill?


WildB is busy, so I hope he won't mind if I throw in my two cents worth.

About baptism...

Ephesians 4:4 - 6 (NASB)
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Since Paul is here discussing the one body, this “one baptism” is probably the baptism of the Spirit, that act of the Spirit when He places the believing sinner into the body of Christ at conversion (1 Cor. 12:13). This is not an experience after conversion, nor is it an experience the believer should pray for or seek after. We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18), but we are never commanded to be baptized with the Spirit, for we have already been baptized by the Spirit at conversion. As far as the one body is concerned, there is one baptism—the baptism of the Spirit. But as far as local bodies of believers are concerned, there are two baptisms: the baptism of the Spirit, and water baptism.

The Greek word baptizo has two meanings, one literal and the other figurative. The word literally means “to submerge,” but the figurative meaning is “to be identified with.” The baptism of the Spirit is that act of God by which He identified believers with the exalted Head of the church, Jesus Christ, and formed the spiritual body of Christ on earth (1 Cor. 12:12-14). Historically, this took place at Pentecost; today, it takes place whenever a sinner trusts Jesus Christ and is born again.

When you read about “baptism” in the New Testament, you must exercise discernment to determine whether the word is to be interpreted literally or symbolically. For example, in Romans 6:3-4 and Galatians 3:27-28, the reference is symbolic since water baptism cannot put a sinner into Jesus Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can do that (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 12:13; see Acts 10:44-48). Water baptism is a public witness of the person’s identification with Jesus Christ, while Spirit baptism is the personal and private experience that identifies the person with Christ.

We can be encouraged because we are identified with Christ’s victory. This is pictured in baptism, and the doctrine is explained in Romans 6. It is the baptism of the Spirit that identifies a believer with Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-13), and this is pictured in water baptism. It is through the Spirit’s power that we live for Christ and witness for Him (Acts 1:8). The opposition of men is energized by Satan, and Christ has already defeated these principalities and powers. He has “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28:18, niv), and therefore we can go forth with confidence and victory.

Another practical lesson is that our baptism is important. It identifies us with Christ and gives witness that we have broken with the old life (see 1 Peter 4:1-4) and will, by His help, live a new life. The act of baptism is a pledge to God that we shall obey Him. To use Peter’s illustration, we are agreeing to the terms of the contract. To take baptism lightly is to sin against God. Some people make too much of baptism by teaching that it is a means of salvation, while others minimize it. Both are wrong. If a believer is to have a good conscience, he must obey God.

Having said this, I want to make it clear that Christians must not make baptism a test of fellowship or of spirituality. There are dedicated believers who disagree on these matters, and we respect them. When General William Booth founded the Salvation Army, he determined not to make it “another church,” so he eliminated the ordinances. There are Christian groups, such as the Quakers, who, because of conscience or doctrinal interpretation, do not practice baptism. I have stated my position, but I do not want to give the impression that I make this position a test of anything. “Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another” (Rom. 14:19). “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind” (Rom. 14:5).

The important thing is that each Christian avow devotion to Christ and make it a definite act of commitment. Most Christians do this in baptism, but even the act of baptism can be minimized or forgotten. It is in taking up our cross daily that we prove we are true followers of Jesus Christ.

(Wiersbe)
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Hi Betty. Hmmmmm....I'll have to try that some time [Big Grin]

quote:
Do you believe in water baptism bill?


WildB is busy, so I hope he won't mind if I throw in my two cents worth.

About baptism...

Ephesians 4:4 - 6 (NASB)
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Since Paul is here discussing the one body, this “one baptism” is probably the baptism of the Spirit, that act of the Spirit when He places the believing sinner into the body of Christ at conversion (1 Cor. 12:13). This is not an experience after conversion, nor is it an experience the believer should pray for or seek after. We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18), but we are never commanded to be baptized with the Spirit, for we have already been baptized by the Spirit at conversion. As far as the one body is concerned, there is one baptism—the baptism of the Spirit. But as far as local bodies of believers are concerned, there are two baptisms: the baptism of the Spirit, and water baptism.

The Greek word baptizo has two meanings, one literal and the other figurative. The word literally means “to submerge,” but the figurative meaning is “to be identified with.” The baptism of the Spirit is that act of God by which He identified believers with the exalted Head of the church, Jesus Christ, and formed the spiritual body of Christ on earth (1 Cor. 12:12-14). Historically, this took place at Pentecost; today, it takes place whenever a sinner trusts Jesus Christ and is born again.

When you read about “baptism” in the New Testament, you must exercise discernment to determine whether the word is to be interpreted literally or symbolically. For example, in Romans 6:3-4 and Galatians 3:27-28, the reference is symbolic since water baptism cannot put a sinner into Jesus Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can do that (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 12:13; see Acts 10:44-48). Water baptism is a public witness of the person’s identification with Jesus Christ, while Spirit baptism is the personal and private experience that identifies the person with Christ.

We can be encouraged because we are identified with Christ’s victory. This is pictured in baptism, and the doctrine is explained in Romans 6. It is the baptism of the Spirit that identifies a believer with Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-13), and this is pictured in water baptism. It is through the Spirit’s power that we live for Christ and witness for Him (Acts 1:8). The opposition of men is energized by Satan, and Christ has already defeated these principalities and powers. He has “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28:18, niv), and therefore we can go forth with confidence and victory.

Another practical lesson is that our baptism is important. It identifies us with Christ and gives witness that we have broken with the old life (see 1 Peter 4:1-4) and will, by His help, live a new life. The act of baptism is a pledge to God that we shall obey Him. To use Peter’s illustration, we are agreeing to the terms of the contract. To take baptism lightly is to sin against God. Some people make too much of baptism by teaching that it is a means of salvation, while others minimize it. Both are wrong. If a believer is to have a good conscience, he must obey God.

Having said this, I want to make it clear that Christians must not make baptism a test of fellowship or of spirituality. There are dedicated believers who disagree on these matters, and we respect them. When General William Booth founded the Salvation Army, he determined not to make it “another church,” so he eliminated the ordinances. There are Christian groups, such as the Quakers, who, because of conscience or doctrinal interpretation, do not practice baptism. I have stated my position, but I do not want to give the impression that I make this position a test of anything. “Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another” (Rom. 14:19). “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind” (Rom. 14:5).

The important thing is that each Christian avow devotion to Christ and make it a definite act of commitment. Most Christians do this in baptism, but even the act of baptism can be minimized or forgotten. It is in taking up our cross daily that we prove we are true followers of Jesus Christ.

(Wiersbe)

ThanX BigC.

Berry I have been sprinkled, dipped, and fully submerged twice...

And came to my senses after a few years of service life, when I was surrounded by water and did not want any further involvement. lol

Ephesians 4:4 - 6 (NASB)
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one(SPIRITUAL)baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all


BUT APPLICATION IS INDIVIDUAL >
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
About the church...

The events recorded in Matthew 16 form a dramatic turning point in our Lord’s ministry. For the first time, He mentioned the church (Matt. 16:18) and openly spoke about His death on the cross (Matt. 16:21).

This is the first occurrence of this important word in the New Testament. It is the Greek word ekklesia (ek-klay-SEE-uh) from which we get our English word “ecclesiastical,” referring to things that pertain to the church. The literal meaning is “a called-out assembly.” The word is used 114 times in the New Testament and in 90 of these references, a local church (assembly) is in view. However, in this first use of ekklesia, it seems likely that Jesus had the whole church in mind. He was not just building a local assembly, but a universal church composed of all who make the same confession of faith that Peter made.

The word ekklesia was not new to the disciples. This word was applied to the popular assembly of Greek citizens that helped to govern a city or district (Acts 19:32, 39, 41). Also, the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) used ekklesia to describe the congregation of Israel when it was gathered for religious activity (Deut. 31:30; Judg. 20:2). However, this does not mean that the Old Testament congregation of Israel was a “church” in the same sense as the churches of the New Testament. Rather, Jesus was introducing something new to His disciples.

Jesus spoke about “My church” in contrast to these other assemblies. This was to be something new and different, for in His church, Jesus Christ would unite believing Jews and Gentiles and form a new temple, a new body (Eph. 2:11-3:12). In His church, natural distinctions would be unimportant (Gal. 3:28). Jesus Christ would be the Builder of this church, the Head of this church (Eph. 1:22; Col. 1:18).

Each believer in this church is a “living stone” (1 Peter 2:5). Believers would meet in local congregations, or assemblies, to worship Christ and to serve Him; but they would also belong to a universal church, a temple being built by Christ. There is a oneness to the people of God (Eph. 4:1-6) that ought to be revealed to the world by love and unity (John 17:20-26).

Fifty days after Firstfruits is the Feast of Pentecost, which pictures the formation of the church. At Pentecost, the Jews celebrated the giving of the Law, but Christians celebrate it because of the giving of the Holy Spirit to the church.

The Feast of Firstfruits took place on the day after the Sabbath following Passover, which means it was always on the first day of the week. (The Sabbath is the seventh day.) Jesus arose from the dead on the first day of the week and “became the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20).

The church was unified (Acts 2:44), magnified (Acts 2:47a), and multiplied (Acts 2:47b). It had a powerful testimony among the unsaved Jews, not only because of the miracles done by the Apostles (Acts 2:43), but also because of the way the members of the fellowship loved each other and served the Lord. The risen Lord continued to work with them (Mark 16:20) and people continued to be saved.

The conversion of Saul of Tarsus, the leading persecutor of the Christians, was perhaps the greatest event in church history after the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost. The next great event would be the conversion of the Gentiles (Acts 10), and Saul (Paul) would become the apostle to the Gentiles. God was continuing to work out His plan to bring the Gospel to the whole world.

The leaders and the whole church (Acts 15:22), directed by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28), made a twofold decision; a doctrinal decision about salvation, and a practical decision about how to live the Christian life. James advised the church to write to the Gentile believers and share the decisions of the conference. This letter asked for obedience to two commands and a willingness to agree to two personal concessions. The two commands were that the believers avoid idolatry and immorality, sins that were especially prevalent among the Gentiles (see 1 Cor. 8-10). The two concessions were that they willingly abstain from eating blood and meat from animals that had died by strangulation.

We usually identify the preaching of the Gospel with the quiet rural villages of Palestine where the Lord Jesus ministered. For this reason, many Christians are surprised to learn that the church in the Book of Acts was almost entirely urban. Historian Wayne A. Meeks writes that “within a decade of the crucifixion of Jesus, the village culture of Palestine had been left behind, and the Greco-Roman city became the dominant environment of the Christian movement” (The First Urban Christians, p. 11).

The church began in Jerusalem, and then spread to other cities, including Samaria, Damascus, Caesarea, and Antioch in Syria. At least forty different cities are named in Acts. From Antioch, Paul and his helpers carried the Gospel throughout the then-known world. In fact, the record given in Acts 13-28 is almost a review of ancient geography. About the year 56, the Apostle Paul was able to write, “So that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the Gospel of Christ” (Rom. 15:19). What a record!

In these two chapters, Dr. Luke described Paul’s ministry in six different cities, beginning and ending at Antioch.

The Lord had a special work for Saul to do (Acts 26:16-18). The Hebrew of the Hebrews would become the apostle to the Gentiles; the persecutor would become a preacher; and the legalistic Pharisee would become the great proclaimer of the grace of God.

It is worth noting that the men who were with Saul saw the light, but did not see the Lord; and they heard the sound, but did not hear the voice speaking the words (note John 12:27-29). We wonder if any of them later trusted in Christ because of Saul’s testimony. He definitely saw the glorified Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 15:7-10).

The men led Saul into the city (Acts 9:8-9), for the angry bull (Acts 9:1) had now become a docile lamb! The leader had to be led because the vision had left him blind. His spiritual eyes had been opened, but his physical eyes were closed. God was thoroughly humbling Saul and preparing him for the ministry of Ananias. He fasted and prayed (Acts 9:11) for three days, during which time he no doubt started to “sort out” what he believed. He had been saved by grace, not by Law, through faith in the living Christ. God began to instruct Saul and show him the relationship between the Gospel of the grace of God and the traditional Mosaic religion that he had practiced all his life.

When he was a Jewish rabbi, Paul was separated as a Pharisee to the laws and traditions of the Jews. But when he yielded to Christ, he was separated to the Gospel and its ministry. Gospel means “the Good News.” It is the message that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again, and now is able to save all who trust Him (1 Cor. 15:1-4). It is “the Gospel of God” (Rom. 1:1) because it originates with God; it was not invented by man. It is “the Gospel of Christ” (Rom. 1:16) because it centers in Christ, the Saviour. Paul also calls it “the Gospel of His Son” (Rom. 1:9), which indicates that Jesus Christ is God! In Romans 16:25-26, Paul called it “my Gospel.” By this he meant the special emphasis he gave in his ministry to the doctrine of the church and the place of the Gentiles in the plan of God.

The Gospel is not a new message; it was promised in the Old Testament, beginning in Genesis 3:15. The Prophet Isaiah certainly preached the Gospel in passages such as Isaiah 1:18, and chapters 53 and 55. The salvation we enjoy today was promised by the prophets, though they did not fully understand all that they were preaching and writing (1 Peter 1:10-12).

Jesus Christ is the center of the Gospel message. Paul identified Him as a man, a Jew, and the Son of God. He was born of a virgin (Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:18-25) into the family of David, which gave Him the right to David’s throne. He died for the sins of the world, and then was raised from the dead. It is this miraculous event of substitutionary death and victorious resurrection that constitutes the Gospel; and it was this Gospel that Paul preached.

(Wiersbe)
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
I ask bill because the Berean Bible Society does not participate in water baptism, i also did not ask if bill was dipped, i ask does he belive it to be a doctrine of the "church" today..
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

CARM
http://carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvation
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
I ask bill because the Berean Bible Society does not participate in water baptism, i also did not ask if bill was dipped, i ask does he belive it to be a doctrine of the "church" today..

 -

Give it up Berry. It is clear to all the game you play.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)

Water baptism is an act of obedience. It is not a requirement for salvation. The ONLY requirement for salvation is that a person is regenerated (baptised) by the Holy Spirit.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
carol states:

quote:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)

Water baptism is an act of obedience. It is not a requirement for salvation. The ONLY requirement for salvation is that a person is regenerated (baptised) by the Holy Spirit.

This part:

quote:
Water baptism is an act of obedience. It is not a requirement for salvation.
Why is the Berean bible Society being "disobedient"?
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
This scripture comes to mind:


Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
“Hyper-dispensationalism” is characterized by making a sharp division between the ministry of Christ and that of the Apostles, and of further dividing Paul’s teaching from that of Peter and the other apostles. Some of the well-known teachers of hyper- or ultra-dispensationalism are E.W. Bullinger, Cornelius Stam, J.C. O’Hair, Charles Welch, Otis Sellers, A.E. Knoch, and Charles Baker. There are many varieties of hyper-dispensationalism, but the following are some of the characteristics:

(1) The four Gospels are entirely Jewish and contain no direct teaching for the churches. Yet, the writer of Hebrews said that the same gospel of salvation that was preached by the apostles was preached by Christ (Heb. 2:3-4). Though we know that Christ presented Himself to the Jewish nation and we do understand that there are differences between the gospels and the epistles, yet in Hebrews 2 we do not see a sharp delineation between the gospel preached by Christ and that preached by the apostles who followed. In fact, the Gospel of John presents exactly the same gospel as that preached by Paul. Further, 1 Timothy 6:3 shows that Christ spoke directly to the church age.

(2) The book of Acts is also largely Jewish. Hyper-dispensationalists commonly believe that after Christ was rejected by Israel in the Gospels, that they were given a second chance to receive the kingdom in the first part of the book of Acts. Thus, they teach that there are two different churches viewed in the book of Acts, and the true Pauline church only started after Acts 9, 13, or 28. The church mentioned in the first part of Acts allegedly refers to a different church than that of Paul’s prison epistles. The earlier “church” in Acts is simply an aspect of the kingdom preached in the Gospels. Most of the book of Acts is therefore discounted as a guideline for the churches today. Yet, at the very end of the book of Acts we still find Paul preaching about the kingdom (Acts 28:23). In fact, he was still preaching about it in his epistles! (2 Thess. 1:5; 2 Tim. 4:1). While we can see an obvious transition in the book of Acts, and not everything in Acts continues to be in effect in the churches today (e.g., tongues speaking and apostolic sign gifts) this does not mean that there are different gospels and different churches in various parts of Acts. The book of Acts is a book about and for the churches. The pattern of the first church as described in Acts 2 is the pattern for the churches throughout the age, except for the temporary and unique aspects pertaining to the coming of the Holy Spirit and the apostolic miracles.

(3) The mysteries given to Paul are a different revelation from that given to Peter and the other Apostles, and only Paul’s writings are directly for the church today. The other epistles, such as Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and the epistles of John are not for us today in a direct sense. Yet, Paul himself said that the church is built upon the “apostleS” plural and not merely upon himself (Eph. 2:20) and the mysteries were “revealed unto his holy apostleS and prophetS” (Eph. 3:5) and not to him alone. Peter also referred to the writings of Paul and made no distinction between Paul’s teaching and the teaching of the other apostles (2 Pet. 3:1-2, 15-16). Peter said Paul wrote to the same people and preached the same message. Though we know that Paul was the special apostle of the Gentiles and he was given unique revelations about the church as the body of Christ, his revelations in no way contradict the revelations given in the General Epistles (Hebrews - Jude).

(4) The gospel preached by Peter in the early part of the book of Acts is different from the gospel preached by Paul. Yet, there is actually no difference between the gospel preached by Peter and that which Paul preached. Peter preached salvation through the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:2), salvation by God’s free mercy (1 Peter 1:3), the new birth (1 Peter 1:3), eternal security because of the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet. 1:3-4). Acts 15 plainly states that all of the apostles, including Peter and Paul, agreed on the gospel. Paul plainly said in 1 Cor. 15:11-14 that they all preached the same gospel. Even in Acts 2, Peter was preaching the gospel of the grace of Christ rather than a “kingdom gospel.” He preached Christ -- His crucifixion (Acts 2:23), resurrection (Acts 2:24-32), ascension and Lordship (Acts 2:33-36). He preached that the people should repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). This is not a “kingdom gospel.” Further, Paul states in Galatians 1, that anyone who preached a different gospel was cursed. If Peter were truly preaching a different gospel in those days, he would have fallen under this curse.

(5) Baptism and the Lord’s Supper were given to Paul before he received the church age mysteries; thus they are not for the churches today. Hyper-dispensationalists differ on this point. Some accept both baptism and the Lord’s Supper; some reject water baptism and the Lord’s Supper altogether; while others reject only baptism and keep the Lord’s Supper.

(6) According to hyper-dispensationalism there are different ways of salvation in the Old Testament and during the Tribulation. Peter Ruckman, for example, teaches that men were saved by faith plus works in the Old Testament and that they will be saved by faith plus works in the Tribulation and by works alone in the Millennium. In Millions Disappear: Fact or Fiction? Ruckman says: “If the Lord comes and you remain behind, then start working like a madman to get to heaven, because you’re going to have to. ... You must keep the Ten Commandments (all of them, Ecclesiastes 12:13), keep the Golden Rule (1 John 3:10), give your money to the poor, get baptized, take up your cross, hold out to the end of the Tribulation, wait for Jesus Christ to show up at the Battle of Armageddon, and be prepared to die for what you believe. In the Tribulation you cannot be saved by grace alone, like you could before the Rapture.” In fact, Romans 4:1-8 plainly states that Abraham before the law and David under the law were saved by faith without works. This is the only plan of salvation God ever has had and ever will have--salvation by grace alone through faith alone based upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ alone. The Old Testament saints did not know what the New Testament saint knows, but Romans 4 makes it plain that they were saved by faith without works. Like Abraham, they believed God and it was counted unto them for righteousness. Those who are saved in the Tribulation will also be saved through faith in God’s Word and by the blood of Jesus Christ and through this alone (Rev. 7:14).

THIS dont send an alarm off Sister to study this out more in detail?


[hug]


[1zhelp]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Ephesians 3 and Hyper-Dispensationalism
07/18/2010 - Jamin Hubner

Ephesians 3 is a key text for hyper-dispensationalists because it marks the beginning of the Dispensation of Grace.[1] Paul unveils the mystery of the church, and this ends the ancient Dispensation of Law and introduces a new structure, a new gospel, and a new basis for doctrine in the church. It also suggests (according to them) the absolute distinctiveness of the Apostle Paul.

It is therefore important that we observe the full context, which is found below. The text is in the NASB, with the Greek word οἰκονομίαν (“dispensation” in KJV) in bold:

1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; (Ephesians 3:1-9, NASB, bold mine)

Clearly, the mystery being talked about in verse 2 is unveiled in verse 6: “that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” It was a surprise to the New Testament Jews (like Paul) to learn that the good news promised for thousands of years in the Old Testament wasn’t just for Jews; it was for anyone who believes. The promises that were given to Israel don’t just apply to them; they apply to Gentiles as well. The promises of God in the Old Covenants are now applicable for all whom Jesus Christ intercedes. That’s it. That’s the mystery in Ephesians 3.

Of course, this isn’t the only mystery in Paul’s letters. He uses the same word (μυστήριον) in Colossians 1:25-27 where the meaning is generally same, but there is more elaboration; the mystery involves the fact that “Christ is in you, the hope of glory.” Thus, at its heart, the “mystery” is Paul’s way of describing unique features of the New Covenant.

Finck comments:

The Mystery is not found in Old Testament Scriptures, or to be even more precise, Old Testament Scripture or pre-Old Testament Scripture. You will not find the Mystery in Genesis; you won't find it all the way through the Old Testament; you won't find it in the Four Gospels. It was a secret. It was not revealed until the Apostle Paul… What does the Mystery include? The Mystery includes this present Dispensation of Grace. You won't find this dispensation revealed in the Old Testament. It's not there. The Mystery includes the fact that Jew and Gentile are brought together on equal ground, equal footing in Christ. That is the Mystery. You won't find that in Old Testament Scriptures.[2]

One can see how Finck automatically assumes that “mystery” = “dispensation of grace.” The reality, however, is that Paul’s mystery is nothing more than one of the numerous and unique features of the New Covenant. So, what about the mystery and the OT? Robert Reymond decisively replies to the dispensationalist:

The Old Testament did testify concerning the future blessings which the Gentiles would share with the Jews (see Gen. 9:26-27; 12:3 [see Gal. 3:8]; 22:18; 26:4; 28;14; Pss. 67; 72:8-11, 17; 87; Isa. 11:10; 49:6; 54:1-3 [see Gal. 4:27]…). What was not so clearly revealed in the Old Testament times was that the Gentiles would be on “a footing of perfect equality” (Hendriksen) with the Jews in Christ’s body, the church…Paul’s statements do not teach the radical conclusions which dispensationalists wish to draw from them, namely, that the Old Testament saints did not know that the Messiah would be rejected and suffer or that a distinction must be drawn between Old Testament Israel “under law” and the New Testament church “under grace,” and that these people are two people of God who are “not to be intermingled or confused, as they are chronologically successive.”[3]


The Mystery Revealed to Paul Only?

Hyper-dispensationalists believe that the “Mystery” was given to and unveiled by the Apostle Paul and him alone. However, this assertion is a bit problematic.

In Ephesians 3, Paul says the “mystery,” (v. 3) “has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets,” (v. 6). All of the New Testament authors understand the mystery because they are “in the Spirit.” This obviously includes Paul, since he says “which was given to me.” However, Paul doesn’t exclude everyone else. He says “prophets,” not “I, Paul, a prophet.” He says “apostles,” not “I, Paul, the only apostle.” Colossians 1:26 bears the same conclusion: “the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.” The mystery Paul is talking about was not revealed to him only, but to other Christians.

The hyper-dispensationalist cannot believe this. To concede on this point would be to forfeit the “absolute distinctiveness of the Apostle Paul” for which Hyper-Dispensationalism was founded. Hence,

We are sometimes asked: "Did not others before Paul speak of grace?" Yes, others before Paul did speak of grace, but before we assume too much from this, let us consider a few basic facts: It is not merely Paul, but the inspired Word which declares that "the dispensation of the grace of God" was committed to him (Eph. 3:2) and that it was his "ministry... received of the Lord Jesus" to make known "the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24). This claim was made for none of his predecessors, nor did any of them even mention the dispensation or the gospel of the grace of God so far as the record is concerned.[4]

How does the hyper-dispensationalist deal with the plural “prophets and apostles” in Ephesians 3:2 and “saints” in Colossians 1:26? We’re simply not told. It is just assumed that Paul is the one actually revealing the mystery (active), not the one observing it (passive) in seeing the church unfold as Christianity continues to grow in the first century (i.e. "so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known" Eph. 3:10) and in Christ himself ("This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord" 3:11).

In any case, because hyper-dispensationalists believe the Apostle Paul was the first and only person to discover “the mystery,” it is suggested that Paul is introducing an entirely new gospel. This conclusion, along with the other serious errors of Hyper-Dispensationalism, will be dealt with in the next post.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] This isn’t necessarily true of all hyper-dispensationalists. Some believe the Dispensation of grace begins at Pentecost, others in Acts 13, and still others in Acts 28:28.

[2] Finck, The Mystery, 23.

[3] Robert Reymond. A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1998), 540-41.

[4] Cornelius Stam. “Paul, the Apostle of Grace.” August/September, 2002
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
barrykind

You keep talking arithmetic, while Paul taught calculus. No wonder you can't understand GRACE.
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
So, Barry you are now a Church of Christ/SDA.
Baptism is not a requirement for salvation.
You cannot prove Berean Bible Society is a cult so you just keep throwing out stuff hoping something will hit the fence.
betty
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
I tell you Betty; if i knew nothing about the Berean Bible Society except wildBill was one i would run from it..He is obnoxious, rude, name calling, in considerate person that i have ever seen on this board in the 8 years + ive been here!

He does not answer with scripture or explaining scripture he answers with silly childish remarks that makes me question his sanity, and salvation..

enough said..be happy with them if you like...

But i posted what was wrong with the Berean bible Society, and you and Carol still dont get it...................Discounting everything but Paul's writings is ludicrous!
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
ENOUGH SAID!


[Prayer] [wave3]
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
I tell you Betty; if i knew nothing about the Berean Bible Society except wildBill was one i would run from it..He is obnoxious, rude, name calling, in considerate person that i have ever seen on this board in the 8 years + ive been here!


Rudeness is not limited to vocabulary. What you said here about WildB is very rude.


quote:
But i posted what was wrong with the Berean bible Society, and you and Carol still dont get it...................Discounting everything but Paul's writings is ludicrous!


You're the one who's ludicrous. It was Paul who wrote this!

2 Timothy 3:16 - 17 (NASB)

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

What we don't get is why you say they discount everything but Paul's writings when Paul said, and THEY say, all scripture is profitable.

Paul was knocked off his legalistic, judgmental high-horse and saved by grace. You will be too if you are sincere.
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
I have been away for some time now and have read a lot of the post here and have to say that just from reading Wildb has been rude ect..

I do not agree with everyone here on their post but do agree with what BarryKind said. sory if that offends but its just based on what i have read here.

On the subject of Paul and what He said about "all SCRIPTURE being profitable" ect.., he was speaking of the Old Test and its entirety. There was no New Test cannon at that time. This was a letter he wrote to Timothy speaking of the only Scriptures they had at that time.

And re-read what he actually says about the Old Test "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for "teaching", for reproof, for correction, "for training in righteousness",so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

This Paul says of the Entire Old Testament. It wan't until the Nicean Council got together and added the writings of the apostles to the Old test scriptures thus calling these writings the New test. This was done sometime in 300AD.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
When Paul spoke of all Scripture, he was primarily referring to the Old Testament, since it was complete at that time. But the scope of Paul’s assertion would include any writing that was considered authoritative enough to be read in church meetings, which by the end of the first century would have included the four Gospels and Paul’s writings. According to 2 Peter 3:15-16, Paul’s writings were classified as “Scriptures.”
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Yahsway,

Do you believe that the New Testament is the inspired Word of God?

As far as Barry, he has talked down to Carol, Wildb and I for so long. He thinks he is a super Christian and the rest of us are less then he is. He has been rude long before we lost our temper and got rude with him.
betty
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Carole, of course by the time 2 Peter was written, Pauls letters were viewed as COMPARABLE with the rest of the Scriptures, that being said though, Paul was not referring to his letters to Timothy but was referring to the Old Testament Scriptures.

If we read Romans 15:4 we get a little better understanding

"For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope."

but lets back up a little 2 Timothy 3:15

"and that from Childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures(Old Test), which are able to make you wise for salvation through Faith which is in Christ Jesus"

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them(Old Test) you think you have eternal life; and these are they (Old Test) which testify of Me"

Paul taught the gospel from the Old Test Scriptures.
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
yahsway,

You did not answer my question. Do you believe the New Testament is the inspired Word of God.
betty
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Betty, of course i did if you read my post. remember i preach the gospel to the Jew, i must as Paul did use the Old Test scriptures to point them to Christ. This is what they use today just like all those in Jesus day used.

But of course it is by his Holy Word and the Holy Spirit that convicts anyone, wouldn't you agree?
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
thank you Yahsway. I just wanted to make sure.
betty
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
2 Timothy was written during Paul's second imprisonment in Rome, shortly before his death, around AD 68. The Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, and Luke were written before AD 60. 2 Peter was written about AD 64.

But the point is not what Paul was specifically referring to in 2 Timothy. The point is that Paul said all scripture is profitable, so Pauline Christianity must take that into account.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
I have been away for some time now and have read a lot of the post here and have to say that just from reading Wildb has been rude ect..

I do not agree with everyone here on their post but do agree with what BarryKind said. sory if that offends but its just based on what i have read here.

On the subject of Paul and what He said about "all SCRIPTURE being profitable" ect.., he was speaking of the Old Test and its entirety. There was no New Test cannon at that time. This was a letter he wrote to Timothy speaking of the only Scriptures they had at that time.

And re-read what he actually says about the Old Test "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for "teaching", for reproof, for correction, "for training in righteousness",so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

This Paul says of the Entire Old Testament. It wan't until the Nicean Council got together and added the writings of the apostles to the Old test scriptures thus calling these writings the New test. This was done sometime in 300AD.

Long time no hear from . You are right I am a trained military person and not a skilled teacher at all.

and i want to pinch Berry on his 3 rdeth cheaketh.
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
I agree with very little Barry post. He thinks we still have to obey the Old Testament laws. He thinks that we should worship on Saturday and he believes we need works added to grace to be saved. Nope, Barry and I do not see eye to eye. Barry, bless his sweet little heart feels he is somehow a better Christian because of what he believes. He still refused to tell me how he is doing the animal sacrifices, which was a requirement of Old Testament laws.
betty
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
WildB, LOl,you haven't changed a bit my friend!
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Betty States:

quote:
agree with very little Barry post. He thinks we still have to obey the Old Testament laws. He thinks that we should worship on Saturday and he believes we need works added to grace to be saved. Nope, Barry and I do not see eye to eye. Barry, bless his sweet little heart feels he is somehow a better Christian because of what he believes. He still refused to tell me how he is doing the animal sacrifices, which was a requirement of Old Testament laws.
betty


1) Comment : you said i believe we have to obey OT Laws...Thats a "loaded" question Sister, if i was to say no we dont have to obey Old Testemant Laws, then i would be saying its ok to steal, covet whats thy neighbors, its ok to take God's name in vain, etc....
If i were to say yes i believe that we have to keep the OT Laws..then im branded a "legalist"!

You give me no way to win, nor be right in your eyes.... [Frown]

Yahushua stated: If you say you love me and keep not my commandments, then your a liar!

2)
quote:
He thinks that we should worship on Saturday
Yes i do, and Mon, tues, weds, thurs, Friday, and Sunday also.... I posted "remember" the sabbath and "keep" it Holy...i think just that, on the Sabbath [Fri nite to sat night], we should cease from our labors, take time to teach the family about Yahweh, and the things Yahushua taught...Did not tell anyone thier not saved for not doing it; thats between them and the Father.

3)
quote:
he believes we need works added to grace to be saved.
Its the unmerited [favor]; GRACE of YHWH that any of us were ever called:....HE said "many" are called "few" are chosen.....He [yahushua] by HIS MERCY AND GRACE of the Father [YHWH], that we were called......All have gone out of the way, book says, no man seeketh after the heart of YHWH, NO NOT ONE!

So by Mercy, Grace alone we were called, then what happens....REPENTANCE; GODLY SORROW; usally tears.......A person under convition of the HOLY SPIRIT...usally falls on thier face and cries out to a merciful God ..save me, for i am undone, lost, a sinner....THE WORD OF YHWH pricked thier heart, and caused them to want to REPENT [turn away] from thier sin and cry out for forgiveness..

What then, This is where i dont see eye to eye with Charles Stanley et,el;

When one has done [not exactly] but something of the above....YHWH places His Spirit inside that one. "Born Again" from above, my goodness..When this happened to me my WHOLE "want to" changed!

i was not a backslidden sunday schooler, i was a vile sinner, and he[barry] whom HE forgave much, also loved much... Jan 18, 1983........

When one is "born again" "saved" received YHWH's Spirit; they cant do enough for YHWH...Nothing is too hard, HE cannot ask too much...

This is where James comes into:

Show me your faith without your works and i will show you my faith BY my WORKS!

Faith without WORKS is DEAD, being alone:

i was already saved before the "works" of James came into play...

The real problem with WORKS is "The works of the LAW"...that cannot nor will not EVER save anyone; because we cannot keep the whole LAW!

The Law is good, it was a school MASTER to show me to look for a Messiah, an advocate, a scapegoat, some one to pay the price for me!....
There was no one, until YHWH sent HIS SON Yahushua the Messiah HaMashiach!

They examined HIM 3-4 days at the same time the Pharasee were examining the Passover lamb, He paid a debt HE did not owe, and i had a debt i could not pay!


4)
quote:
Barry and I do not see eye to eye. Barry, bless his sweet little heart feels he is somehow a better Christian because of what he believes.
This is simply not true [unless my heart deceives me] Yah Forbid!... i truly love yall and trying to show what i see and how i see things..........

5)
quote:
He still refused to tell me how he is doing the animal sacrifices, which was a requirement of Old Testament laws.
betty


Sorry not intentional...i do not do animal sacrifices, nor do i think that we are suppose to:

there are truly some 613 laws, commandments, statutes and judgements in the Torah.

Hebrews tells me that once Yahshua died on the Cross, animal sacrifices are no longer used, because we have a perfect sacrifice, the blood of bulls and goats never forgave sin; it "covered" sin. Yahushua not only forgave all past sins at the time of my conversion, upon conviction of the Holy Spirit, i repent, ask forgiveness and our advocate pleads our case with the Father [YHWH].

The "Law", "commandments" are written on my heart!

"Ten", and anything else the Father puts on my heart>

I think i have explained this before, i do not eat pork...Why? i feel YHWH put it on my heart not to..none of my immediate family has eaten any pork for around 15 yrs. [Once again, i did not tell anyone to eat or not to eat pork]

Do i think that "work" saves me; well if i really believe that YHWH told me not to eat pork, [or what ever YHWH leads me to do or not to do],would it not be at least "rebellion" which is as the sin of witchcraft to YHWH?

i was called a liar here. Now i do not think that i have lied at all, and no one has shown any evidence of a wilful lie that i have told here.

Even if i did tell a lie, that does not make one a liar....If one tells a lie, and repents he is clear with YHWH. One that wilfully, lies, and becomes a liar..He is not going to heaven folks!
All LIARS have thier part in the LAKE OF FIRE! The SECOND DEATH...to call on a liar is a very serious offense, worse that calling thy brother a FOOL!

Another reason OSAS cant be right, because if one coninually lies, and has no repentance, and becomes what YHWH calls a LIAR, he will not enter heaven!


Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


i think i answered all your statements and questions..

[hug]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
"i was not a backslidden sunday schooler, i was a vile sinner, and he[barry] whom HE forgave much, also loved much... Jan 18, 1983........"

Why your still wet behind the ears son.

Me a 17 yearold dropout living on the streets waiting for my enlistment papers to go thru, was filled with the Spirit 10,27,1975..then went to boot camp training 3 days later.

[rapture]
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Christians often have to work on Saturday and Sunday. There was a time when I had to work to take care of my children. I worked in a hospital and I worked on Sundays. I felt guilty at first, but I begin to see how I could show the love of Christ to the patients that had to be there on Sunday. Now I am blessed not to work and I worship God in my Church on Sundays.

We have to be careful not to judge those who work on Sunday or Saturday. Remember Jesus said if a sheep fell in a ditch on the Sabbath, a person would pick it up out of the ditch. If our house catches on fire we would call the fire department to come on Saturday or Sunday. It has been said many many times here that Jesus is our Sabbath and that days were made for man not man for days. We as Christians should honor Jesus every day. Sometimes honoring Christ is working physically for a widow or shut in. I have seen my dad who has now past on work Saturday and Sunday fixing things for widows after putting in a 40 hour week at his job. I have seen him come home from Church on Sunday and then take a motor out of the Church buss and work on it. We can honor God in many ways including working.

We need Christian firemen, police office and military.

My problem with Barry is his arrogance. It comes out in his post all the time. We should not take pride in what day we worship. What good is worship to God if we then use that worship to fill our hearts with pride and look down on others? Does God take pleasure on someone who does that?
betty
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
WildB, LOl,you haven't changed a bit my friend!

Luv ya,

no poop,lol!

Buy me air conditioned honda!


Nows the nursing doing ya?
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
changed jobs since we last spoke. Better job and much better pay, although now its 12 hour shifts.
7p-7a, oh well.

had minor surgery Last week so i am off work a few days and have had some time to catch up here with you guys.

i miss helpforhomeschoolers, does she ever frequent this bbs?

Luv ya too you crazy thang!
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
changed jobs since we last spoke. Better job and much better pay, although now its 12 hour shifts.
7p-7a, oh well.

had minor surgery Last week so i am off work a few days and have had some time to catch up here with you guys.

i miss helpforhomeschoolers, does she ever frequent this bbs?

Luv ya too you crazy thang!

Manny do in the back grounds but don't wan't the aggravation of the argument anymore.

The Bleacher Creachers of the baseball fans world.

God appointed down time works wonders 4 the soul.

Enjoy and smell the roses.lol
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Linda has been gone for quite awhile. I miss her too and pray for her when God brings her to my mind.
betty
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
WildB, you say the Berean Bible Society is not a cult, I say it is ....I think we may be able to settle this with a simple definition.

please give me your / their definition of Saving Grace?
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB, you say the Berean Bible Society is not a cult, I say it is ....I think we may be able to settle this with a simple definition.

please give me your / their definition of Saving Grace?

as i am not a very lernid person, i would like time 2 talk to our Christ befor i post.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Bill states:

quote:
as i am not a very lernid person, i would like time 2 talk to our Christ befor i post.


That is wisdom sir and i can certainly RESPECT that!

[thumbsup2]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
o by the waqy bill, i know you misspell things on purpose... [updown]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
A man that answers too quick, to me is not wise...some things require prayer and patience!

and i can really appreciate that sir...


You take as long as neccessary, for the LORd to speak to your heart..

Thankyou for your honesty and love for the truth!

[hug]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
[thumbsup2]


[Smile]


[hug]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Barry , Because explain this verse 2 the best of your wisdom.
Wisdom is doing this day that u 2 can live with tomorrow.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
you sure erase a lot of posts Billy boy
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB, you say the Berean Bible Society is not a cult, I say it is ....I think we may be able to settle this with a simple definition.

please give me your / their definition of Saving Grace?

Ephesians 2:4 - 10 (NASB) 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together £with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

1. We are saved by GRACE—Eph. 2:8,9.
2. We are justified freely by His GRACE—Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7.
3. His GRACE is sufficient for us—II Cor. 12:9.
4. We are not under Law but under GRACE—Rom. 6:14,15.
5. This age is the age of GRACE —Eph. 3:2.
6. We are to approach the throne of GRACE in prayer—Heb. 4:16.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Grace

“Grace is what God may be free to do, and indeed what he does, accordingly, for the lost after Christ has died on behalf of them” (Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, 7:178).

It is thus apparent that God’s grace is to be distinguished from His mercy and love (Ephesians 2:4-5), “But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).”

Mercy is therefore the compassion of God that moved Him to provide a Savior for the unsaved. Had God been able to save even one soul on the ground of His sovereign mercy alone, He could have saved every person on that basis, as Lewis Sperry Chafer points out, and the death of Christ would not have been a necessity.

Divine love on the other hand is the motivating plan behind all that God does in saving a soul. But since God is holy and righteous, and sin is a complete offense to Him, His love or His mercy cannot operate in grace until there is provided a sufficient satisfaction for sin.

This satisfaction makes possible the exercise of God’s grace. Grace thus rules out all human merit. It requires only faith in the Savior. Any intermixture of human merit violates grace.

God’s grace thus provides not only salvation but safety and preservation for the one saved, despite his imperfections. Grace perfects forever the saved one in the sight of God because of the saved one’s position “in Christ.”

Grace bestows Christ’s merit and Christ’s standing forever (Romans 5:1-2; 8:1; Colossians 2:9-10); “for in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete.” Grace thus obviates any obligation to gain merit, and the law as a merit system is no longer applicable to a believer, since he is no longer “under law, but under grace” (Romans 6:14).

The problem of a holy life is met in the gospel of grace by the fact that the saved one has an entirely new position in grace instead of in Adam (Romans 5:12-20). And being baptized “into Christ” (Romans 6:1-11), he is “dead to sin, but alive to God.” Knowledge of and faith in this glorious in-Christ position (Romans 6:11) is the key that makes it actual in the believer’s everyday experience.

Rewards for faithfulness and practical holiness of life are to be dispensed, but this is a truth not to be confused with an unforfeitable and unmerited salvation.

(Unger's)
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Ephesians 3
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

13Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


quote:
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


Notice #1.....the mystery given to Paul:
verse 4.

Notice #2 It is NOT of private interpetation to Paul ONLY! Verse 5

And also please note That the mystery revealed is:

verse 6

quote:
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


[hug]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Carol posted:

quote:
Rudeness is not limited to vocabulary. What you said here about WildB is very rude.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But i posted what was wrong with the Berean bible Society, and you and Carol still dont get it...................Discounting everything but Paul's writings is ludicrous!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're the one who's ludicrous. It was Paul who wrote this!

2 Timothy 3:16 - 17 (NASB)

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

What we don't get is why you say they discount everything but Paul's writings when Paul said, and THEY say, all scripture is profitable.

Paul was knocked off his legalistic, judgmental high-horse and saved by grace. You will be too if you are sincere.

First :


Carol was Yahushua rude when He stated:

Luke 3:7
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

John 2:15
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables


Next:

Rest of your post stated:

quote:
You're the one who's ludicrous. It was Paul who wrote this!

2 Timothy 3:16 - 17 (NASB)

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

What we don't get is why you say they discount everything but Paul's writings when Paul said, and THEY say, all scripture is profitable.

Paul was knocked off his legalistic, judgmental high-horse and saved by grace. You will be too if you are sincere.

i did not say you, nor wild, were ludicrous;[although you did call me ludicrous] i stated that discounting all but Pauls writings is "ludicrous"...i know they quote "All scripture is given for profit..tim 3: 16-17; but they say if you would read the writings of Stam, and J.C. O'Hair...they state that those other writings are for the Jews; not for the "church" today which is in the "dispensation" of Grace!

They quote the scripture but preach "ANOTHER" "GOSPEL" !
sister......

more later..

[hug]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:


[hug]

Why do you post this ? Its offensive and gay when followed by your spamming.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Bill edited my quote within his quote to read:

quote:
WildB

Advanced Member
Member # 2917

posted October 28, 2010 04:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by barrykind:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do you post this ? Its offensive and gay when followed by your spamming.

--------------------
That is all.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3705 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |

Bill your exposed sir!
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Bill edited my quote within his quote to read:

quote:
WildB

Advanced Member
Member # 2917

posted October 28, 2010 04:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by barrykind:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do you post this ? Its offensive and gay when followed by your spamming.

--------------------
That is all.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3705 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |

Bill your exposed sir!
So are you tapping Me on the shoulder for a dance?
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
I respectfully ask Dale to delet this post.

Of coarse after great prayer.

Delet this post.


I am my Lords.


And I die daily for my people.


I never thought I would get it from the back.


I will forgive you "if" you forgive me.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
WildB , I am trying to understand this new thing that Paul is teaching that is suppose to be different than what Jesus taught, can I use the whole book of 2 Timothy or are there certain verses I should leave out?

Does the Berean Bible Society except 2 Timothy as acceptable for the Gentile dispensation of Grace?
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
At the time of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 there were still many Jewish Christians who believed that the Gentiles must accept circumcision and the Law of Moses before they could be Christians. But at the council it was shown that God was working through Paul and Barnabas to save Gentiles as Gentiles. They were not saved by the Law, but by Grace, a free gift from God. James concluded that Gentiles need only obey the 4 rules he stated in Acts.

The Gospel of Grace was for Gentiles who would not be required to be circumcised or obey the whole Law of Moses.

After 70 AD, no one could truly obey the Law of Moses because there was no temple and no priesthood.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Carol, I am not saying anything about any external law of any type......

my only reference to law is the Law of Yahweh upon the heart....and I say without reservation if the Law of Yahweh be not on your heart, you are no part of the Body of Yahshua / The Church.....

Romans 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Why does Paul say HIS GOSPEL? and not OUR GOSPEL?
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
You asked how Paul's message was different, and that's what I answered, although I'm not WildB. (Hope he doesn't mind).
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
You asked how Paul's message was different, and that's what I answered, although I'm not WildB. (Hope he doesn't mind).

Not at all. I thought it was clear to all?
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
WildB , I am trying to understand this new thing that Paul is teaching that is suppose to be different than what Jesus taught, can I use the whole book of 2 Timothy or are there certain verses I should leave out?

Does the Berean Bible Society except 2 Timothy as acceptable for the Gentile dispensation of Grace?

my question was specific to the use of 2 Timothy....being as the Berean Bible Society reject so much of the rest of scripture as for the Church dispensation we are now in.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB , I am trying to understand this new thing that Paul is teaching that is suppose to be different than what Jesus taught, can I use the whole book of 2 Timothy or are there certain verses I should leave out?

Does the Berean Bible Society except 2 Timothy as acceptable for the Gentile dispensation of Grace?

my question was specific to the use of 2 Timothy....being as the Berean Bible Society reject so much of the rest of scripture as for the Church dispensation we are now in.

Make shur you study this part 023: But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Responsibility and Discipline- or -2 TIMOTHY 2:15 IN CONTEXT

http://www.gracepoints.com/articles/gpresponsibility.php

"Used by permission of the Berean Bible Society."
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Responsibility and Discipline- or -2 TIMOTHY 2:15 IN CONTEXT

http://www.gracepoints.com/articles/gpresponsibility.php

"Used by permission of the Berean Bible Society."

Good read. ThanX BigC bb later time 2 hit the woods.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
I could say the same to you WildB...about verse 23 but , no matter...

24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Does the Berean Bible Society except 2 Timothy as acceptable for the Gentile dispensation of Grace?


Guess who wrote 2 Timothy?

(Guess Who taught him what to write?)
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
My goodness Carol, the next thing you will have us believing is that Paul wrote the letters to Timothy.
[Big Grin] [Wink] [Razz]

Have a blessed morning. This old lady is going back to bed. This is way to early for me to be up.
betty [hug]
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
LOL

Sleep well [zzzzzz]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I could say the same to you WildB...about verse 23 but , no matter...

24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Yet you post on any ways.

Riddle me this?

How does one judge another about instructing other's, with meeknees when grafted into the tree of opposition?

Definition of OPPOSE

1
: to place over against something so as to provide resistance, counterbalance, or contrast
2
: to place opposite or against something
3
: to offer resistance to
— op·pos·er noun
Examples of OPPOSE


The governor opposes the death penalty.
The change is opposed by many of the town's business leaders.
The group opposes the mayor and is trying to find a candidate to run against her.
You've opposed every suggestion I've made.
He met the man who will oppose him in the next election.
These two teams opposed each other in last year's playoffs.
We're hoping we can get more senators to oppose the legislation.

The Becausehelives oppose,s The Gospel of Grace because it takes the power away from the Curse of the LAW.
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Paul says this rom 6:1

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not. How shall we who have died to sin live any longer in it?


14: For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under ghrace.

Everyone who does not know Jesus is under the Law.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
WOW! Right on!
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
So Carole, you agree that being "under the law" is everyone that does not know Christ?

And- that following the law after knowing Christ, having that law written on our hearts is okay?
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
carol must have fell asleep...
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
THE SHAM
DOCTRINES
of
“HYPER or ULTRA
DISPENSATIONALISM”
some of the recognized false teachers are:

E.W. Bullinger
Cornelius Stam
Charles Welch
Otis Sellers
A.E. Knoch
J.C. O’Hair
Charles Baker


by W.B. Howard ...editor of despatch
Please contact us if you have any further queries about the above material. As noted already not everything can be covered in this one small exposé booklet. We have not really dealt with other teachers than Bullinger; the teachings of Stam are similar, as noted and are just as confusing.

We can offer you a bigger A3 chart of the following extract from Charles Larkin’s material.
(We have permission from his Estate to distribute his material.)
Endtime Ministries P. O. B. 1265, Burpengary. Q. 4505

despatch@mail.cth.com.au


THE SHAM DOCTRINES OF
HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISM.
By W.B. Howard.
The Endtime Church of Jesus Christ has been facing so many fake doctrines, silly fads and utter shams that the mind boggles at the extent of it all. We are certainly in the last of the Last Days with all the accompanying spiritual traps that Jesus Christ warned us of in God’s Word. The Antichrist system is being established before our startled eyes, and Satan himself is bringing in powerful LIES, both in the world at large and in the very churches that profess to serve Jesus Christ. “Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,” 11 Timothy 2:9. Be on your alert, Christian, this flood of lies and deceptions has not ceased yet, he that thinks he stands safe and sound in doctrine, be careful that he doesn’t fall into error through self confidence! Depend on Christ at all times, keep close to God in obedience, study His Word diligently.
“Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”
1 Corinthians 10:12.
A destructive SHAM entered the scene many, many years ago; it is false doctrine that often appeals to Bible believers who are fundamental and sound. Good old fashioned believers are often those who fall prey to this sham. It seems to promise deeper and more scholarly understanding of the scriptures. The deception I refer to is HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISM. You may have encountered this false interpretation method, or it may well have attacked you already and you have succumbed, have fallen? If the latter is the case, please read on with much prayer for wisdom and truth, depending only on the Holy Spirit. Do not defend this ramshackle method of Bible study, do not become distressed because you have been deceived – come back to the Truth of God’s Word in humility, He will set you free:
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:13.
That giant of the Christian Faith, Harry Ironside, once asked what a foremost Greek scholar in America thought of Hyper Dispensationalism. It was asked in reference to his evaluation of one of the CHIEF HERETICS who were spreading Hyper Dispen-sationalism, Dr. E.W. Bullinger, and in regard

to Bullinger’s “private translation” of the New Testament. Below is the conversation between the two men, Dr. A.T. Robertson and H.A. Ironside, Litt.D., as recorded in Ironside’s book, “Wrongly Dividing the Word of God”:
(IRONSIDE) I said, “Doctor, would you give me in a few words your estimate of this work, and give me the privilege of quoting you as occasion may arise?”
He (ROBERTSON) replied, “I can give it to you in two words, Piffle and Puffle, and you may tell any one that that is my estimate of this vaunted translation.”
We agree that Hyper-Dispensationalism is indeed Piffle and Puffle, as are the doctrinal efforts of Bullinger!
Hyper-Dispensationalism can look innocent enough at the start, but will result eventually in an almost complete departure from “the faith once delivered to the saints”. BEWARE. Despatch is totally against Hyper-Dispensationalism, it is a disaster. Sadly, there seems to be a growth in this deception happening in our midst in 2005, this is why we must warn our readers. We have encountered a number of groups in recent months.
WHAT ARE THE BASIC TENETS
OF HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISM?
These are some of the recognized false teachers
of Hyper or Ultra Dispensationalism:
• E.W. Bullinger
• Cornelius Stam
• Charles Welch
• Otis Sellers

A.E. Knoch
• J.C. O’Hair
• Charles Baker
• This system of study and application of God’s Word limits the Scriptures that apply to the Christian Church of the New Testament. Thus the proponents of Hyper-Dispensationalism, believe that only the writings of PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES are applicable to the Christian Church, and only these writings can be used for doctrine, exhortation, church discipline and practical living instruction et al. Hyper-Dispensationalism teaches that Paul’s revelation is entirely different to even the other Apostles’ teachings in


the New Testament. The belief is that all the books and teachings of Scripture other than Paul’s are to be rejected as pertaining to the Church’s doctrines and instruction in righteous living from God.
... 2 ...
• Hyper-Dispensationalism shows that the Four Gospel books are Jewish and have no teaching in them for the Christian Church. This is an awesome error, for it repudiates the very authority of the Gospels of Christ themselves!
• The Book of Acts is likewise rejected for the Church as being mostly Jewish.
• Hyper-Dispensationalism teaches that the gospel preached by Peter in the Book of Acts is another gospel entirely from the gospel preached by Paul. If this were the case then either Peter or Paul must have a curse upon them, one or the other should be excluded from Scripture, for the Bible states:
“As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:9. There is only ONE Gospel recognized by the Lord.
... 3 ...
• The writings of Paul are seen as mysteries given to Paul for the Church Age, but Baptism and the Lord’s Supper are seen as being given to Paul before the Church Age revelations were shown to him by God. So, Baptism and the Communion are rejected as being not for the Church. (HyperDis. believers differ here, some reject both Baptism and Communion, others one or the other). The Hyper-Dispensationalism belief is that Paul did not receive his especial revelations for the Church until he was imprisoned in Rome. So that the only portions of Scripture given to the blood-bought members of Christ’s Body are the prison epistles – all other writings of Paul’s, other than the prison epistles and the general epistles, are seen as being just instructions for the Jewish church of that period of history.
• How impossibly limiting this is!
... 4 ...
• HyperDis. brings a wholly unacceptable division between the ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ and the ministries of the Apostles. Then it goes further and makes untenable division between Paul’s teachings, Peter’s teachings and the teaching of all other Apostles. It projects invalid distinction that is destructive, thus bringing confusion and loss of priceless, precious Scriptures to the victims of the sham. It is a system that should be rejected utterly, lest great harm be done to individuals and fellowships.

• The errors of the core teacher of Hyper-Dispensationalism, E.W. Bullinger, are enormous; he was a man of division, inaccuracy and of arrogant pride. By their fruits we may know these teachers. Does Bullinger pour forth a fountain of purity? Hardly, brackish, dirty water cannot bring forth the pure, sweet water of God’s Word.
• Here is what Ironside had to say of Bullinger:
“Having had most intimate acquaintance with Bullingerism as taught by many for the last forty years, I have no hesitancy in saying that its fruits are evil. It has produced a tremendous crop of heresies throughout the length and breadth of this and other lands, it has divided Christians and wrecked churches and assemblies without number; it has lifted up its votaries in intellectual and spiritual pride to an appalling extent, so that they look with supreme contempt upon Christians who do not accept their peculiar views; and in most instances where it has been long tolerated, it has absolutely throttled Gospel effort at home and sown discord on missionary fields abroad. So true are these things of this system that I have no hesitancy in saying it is an absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth. Instead of rightly dividing the Word, I shall seek to show that these teachers wrongly divide the Word, and that their propaganda is anything but conducive to spirituality and enlightenment in divine things.”
The reader can write for more on this subject from Ironside,
ask for “Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth”,
by H.A. Ironside, Litt.D. Cost including postage, $10.
SHALL WE PROCEED?
What is needed is armour that protects from this deception; it is yet another deadly trap that threatens God’s people today. What is that armour? We need the pure Word of God and instruction in its Truth; truly the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but spiritual, to the pulling down of strongholds:
“Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with TRUTH,
and having on the breastplate of righteousness;” Ephesians 6:14.

Read more here:


www.despatch.cth.com.au/Books_D/hyperdispensationism.pdf

This is a perverted "false Gospel" it is ANOTHER GOSPEL.

It is not the Gospel of Yahushua, the Apostles, and not ther Gospel according to Paul!


BEWARE OF FALSE "GOSPELS"...

Oh the precious bbody of Christ, and my fellow laborers in the "TRUE" Gospel... There are certain men have crept in unawares and are delivering a FALSE GOSPEL>>>ANOTHER GOSPEL..

Whose mouths must be stopped!

Jude 1
1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

16These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

17But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.





4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


This is a verse that states that there are some, that has turned "grace" into a license to be "lascivious"


greek word: ἀσέλγεια
#766

1) unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, outrageousness, shamelessness, insolence


Grace us wonderful and without it none of us could have ever been saved....

Ultra-dispensationalism as taught by Burlinger, Stam, J.C. O'Hair et; el;

is ANOTHER GOSPEL....As seen in not only the above pdf document; but in countless examples myself along with others has shown on this board..


WHAT ABOUT THE FOUR GOSPEL BOOKS,
THE BOOK OF ACTS,
& PETER & PAUL & THEIR GOSPELS?
One would think that this booklet would be entirely unnecessary, how could any Christians actually fall for Hyper Dispen-sationalism? - in these days, anything goes! There are groups and individuals out there who are deeply involved in Hyper-Dispensationalism.
• How did they get into such a piffle and puffle?
Maybe there is something in a lot of us that likes to have a special understanding of the “truth”, beyond those around us, that embraces novel and academic sounding “deeper” teaching, “secret men’s business”!
• What is the answer we can have to the rejection of the four Gospels and the Book of Acts; to the contentions that Peter and Paul taught different Gospels?
Sounds bizarre doesn’t it?
THE GOSPELS.
To imagine that the Gospels which tell the glorious story of Jesus Christ from His birth to His death and resurrection could have no teaching and relevance to the Church is unbelievable. They contain the beauty of
9the very words and actions of Jesus Christ as He ministered whilst here on earth, the parables, the prayers, the miracles of our Lord. To say they are entirely Jewish and not for the Church is outrageous.
The book of Hebrews shows us that the Gospel that was preached by the apostles was the very Gospel preached by Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus Christ spoke to the Jewish nation in different ways than to the Church, because He was leading them into the New Covenant in His Blood, and had not yet been crucified, He had not yet risen from the dead. The book of Hebrews also opens up the New Covenant, but NOT exclusively for the Jewish nation as we see in Hebrews chapter one.
* Read this carefully and you will see the opening up of the glory of the Son of God as “the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,” as God speaking to the whole world of His work of “purging our sins” in His Blood.
In Hebrews chapter two we see NO disparity between the Gospel preached by Christ and the Gospel preached by the apostles, as the Hyper-Dispensationalism teachers claim.
It is the SAME Gospel.


[hug]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Hyper or Ultra Dispensationalism is not Dispensationalism.


"the teachings of Stam are similar, as noted and are just as confusing"

If the teachings of Stam are confusing to you then you best pick up your snakes and drink your poison thats after your clovenized tongue speak's so others can understand in there own language.

But please sell all that you have and give me my share before you do this.

Please stop your sillyness.

It is clear to all your inability to rightfully divide the word.

Plow on Berry, plow on.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
wildb states:

quote:
Hyper or Ultra Dispensationalism is not Dispensationalism.


"the teachings of Stam are similar, as noted and are just as confusing"

If the teachings of Stam are confusing to you then you best pick up your snakes and drink your poison thats after your clovenized tongue speak's so others can understand in there own language.

But please sell all that you have and give me my share before you do this.

Please stop your sillyness.

It is clear to all your inability to rightfully divide the word.

Plow on Berry, plow on.


Quit Stamming Bill''

C.R. Stam, J.C. O'Hair along with the above listed folks "preach" ANOTHER GOSPEL, plain and simple!

1 Corinthians...written by Paul!


36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40Let all things be done decently and in order.



 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
wildb states:

quote:
Hyper or Ultra Dispensationalism is not Dispensationalism.


"the teachings of Stam are similar, as noted and are just as confusing"

If the teachings of Stam are confusing to you then you best pick up your snakes and drink your poison thats after your clovenized tongue speak's so others can understand in there own language.

But please sell all that you have and give me my share before you do this.

Please stop your sillyness.

It is clear to all your inability to rightfully divide the word.

Plow on Berry, plow on.


Quit Stamming Bill''

C.R. Stam, J.C. O'Hair along with the above listed folks "preach" ANOTHER GOSPEL, plain and simple!

1 Corinthians...written by Paul!


36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40Let all things be done decently and in order.



It is clear to all how you divide the word.

Id rather be Stamming truth than Spamming lies.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Do I have to babe sit you again till BigC gets back?

I really need to get out and split some wood.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Bill in his post stated:

quote:
If the teachings of Stam are confusing to you then you best pick up your snakes and drink your poison thats after your clovenized tongue speak's so others can understand in there own language.


No Stams teachings are not at all confusing to me sir...There false teachings born of satan himself to take away of the TRUE GOSPEL!

Stams confusion on scripture is to his own undoing....Anyone who rejects the words of Yahushua as to the Jews only..is confused in his own right!

Dont follow those "ultra" lies as perpetrated of the enemy; there is only "ONE" TRUE GOSPEL and Paul did not contradict it, nor any of the Apostles.

I cannot believe the lies of "another Gospel" [that you believe] are so defended by anyone of True Faith!

The is no "ecumenical" endorsement of such false teachings just for the sake of peace!

No not at all!

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Yahushua came with a sword of the spirit and dividing between the soul and spirit, joints and marrow!

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart!

[hug]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Bill in his post stated:

quote:
If the teachings of Stam are confusing to you then you best pick up your snakes and drink your poison thats after your clovenized tongue speak's so others can understand in there own language.


No Stams teachings are not at all confusing to me sir...There false teachings born of satan himself to take away of the TRUE GOSPEL!

Stams confusion on scripture is to his own undoing....Anyone who rejects the words of Yahushua as to the Jews only..is confused in his own right!

Dont follow those "ultra" lies as perpetrated of the enemy; there is only "ONE" TRUE GOSPEL and Paul did not contradict it, nor any of the Apostles.

I cannot believe the lies of "another Gospel" [that you believe] are so defended by anyone of True Faith!

The is no "ecumenical" endorsement of such false teachings just for the sake of peace!

No not at all!

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Yahushua came with a sword of the spirit and dividing between the soul and spirit, joints and marrow!

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart!

[hug]

Then you best pick up your snakes and drink your poison thats after your clovenized tongue speak's so others can understand in there own language.

But please sell all that you have and give me my share before you do this.

Please stop your sillyness.

Do I have to babe sit you again till AunteC gets back?

I really need to get out and split some wood.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
bill states: [i need a rubber stamp for that]


quote:
Then you best pick up your snakes and drink your poison thats after your clovenized tongue speak's so others can understand in there own language.

But please sell all that you have and give me my share before you do this.

Please stop your sillyness.

Do I have to babe sit you again till AunteC gets back?

I really need to get out and split some wood.


Your following the wrong spirit bill, pray that you can see with your eyes and hear with those ears sir.

Some of the things disscussed here are the most serious issues that can face us...and you act as tho its a sill game..

Be forwarned sir; these are most serious matters;

and why is many times your posts edited by Carol?

Can you communicate as so not to bring railing accusations?

we have proved beyond any reasonable doubt that C.R. Stam, J.C. O'Hair; and others [but these being the main false teachers of the Berean Bible Society teaching "ANOTHER GOSPEL", and leading some astray such as yourself.

The evidence is there and anyone, anyone [in the body of Messiah] {Christ} that has a "love" of the "truth" can see thru this veil of hypocracy!

Those leaders are now deceased and some carry on thier false torch! "another gospel"


www.despatch.cth.com.au/Books_D/hyperdispensationism.pdf


much more links to expose this false "another Gospel" if you want them
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
bill states: [i need a rubber stamp for that]


quote:
Then you best pick up your snakes and drink your poison thats after your clovenized tongue speak's so others can understand in there own language.

But please sell all that you have and give me my share before you do this.

Please stop your sillyness.

Do I have to babe sit you again till AunteC gets back?

I really need to get out and split some wood.


Your following the wrong spirit bill, pray that you can see with your eyes and hear with those ears sir.

Some of the things disscussed here are the most serious issues that can face us...and you act as tho its a sill game..

Be forwarned sir; these are most serious matters;

and why is many times your posts edited by Carol?

Can you communicate as so not to bring railing accusations?

we have proved beyond any reasonable doubt that C.R. Stam, J.C. O'Hair; and others [but these being the main false teachers of the Berean Bible Society teaching "ANOTHER GOSPEL", and leading some astray such as yourself.

The evidence is there and anyone, anyone [in the body of Messiah] {Christ} that has a "love" of the "truth" can see thru this veil of hypocracy!

Those leaders are now deceased and some carry on thier false torch! "another gospel"


www.despatch.cth.com.au/Books_D/hyperdispensationism.pdf


much more links to expose this false "another Gospel" if you want them

You have proved nothing but, you just don't get it.

Berry pick up your snakes and drink your poison thats after your clovenized tongue speak's so others can understand in there own language.

But please sell all that you have and give me my share before you do this.

Are We Hyper-Dispensationalists?
By David M. Havard

Keywords: hyperdispensationalism, ultradispensationalism, dispensationalism, H. A. Ironside, Charles Baker, Pastor C. R. Stam, E. W. Bullinger, J. C. O'Hair, revelation of the mystery, body of Christ, Paul's gospel, gospel of the grace of God, Apostle Paul, rightly dividing the word of truth

Many years ago, H. A. Ironside1 published a booklet entitled Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth in which he threw Charles Baker and C. R. Stam into the same bucket as E. W. Bullinger. Ever since then, we have been labeled as having the same extreme views as Bullinger. Men who have never looked into what we really teach continue to spread the slander started by Ironside back in the 1930's. Besides, it's much easier to label us as "hyper" and dismiss us than it is to address us based on the Scriptures.

This was recently done again in the July/August 1999 issue of Uplook magazine (published by the Plymouth Brethren). In this their Dispensationalism Issues issue, they presented an excellent overview of dispensationalism. As a matter of fact, we would agree with the majority of what was written. But then, one writer had to add this statement:

"One final word. Like all good things, the study of dispensations can be abused. There are some Christians who carry dispensationalism to such an extreme that they accept only Paul's Prison Epistles as applicable for the church today. As a result, they do not accept baptism or the Lord's Supper, since these are not found in the Prison Epistles. They also teach that Peter's gospel message was not the same as Paul's….These people are sometimes called ultra-dispensationalists or Bullingerites (after a teacher named E. W. Bullinger). Their extreme view of dispensationalism should be rejected."2

This article was then followed by the following excerpt from Ironside's book:3

"What is Bullingerism or Ultra-dispensationalism? This system was first advocated some years ago by Dr. E. W. Bullinger (1837-1913), who was educated at King's College, London, and was a clergyman in the Church of England. These views have been widely spread through the notes of the Companion Bible which he edited. Dr. Bullinger's positions are glaringly opposed to what is generally accepted as orthodox teaching. This movement has been carried forth in our day by ardent proponents such as Cornelius Stam, J. C. O'Hair and Charles Baker. [emphasis mine]

"There are a number of outstanding tenets of Ultra-dispensationalism. First, it is insisted that the four Gospels are entirely Jewish and have no real message for the Church. Secondly, it is maintained that in the book of Acts we do not have the Church, the Body of Christ, but that the word ekklesia (church), as it is used in that book refers to a different Church altogether than that of Paul's Prison Epistles. Thirdly, it is contended that Paul did not receive his special revelation of the mystery of the Body until his imprisonment in Rome, and that his Prison Epistles alone reveal this truth and are, strictly speaking, the only portion of the Holy Scriptures given to the members of His Body. All of the other epistles of Paul are relegated to an earlier dispensation and were for the instruction of the so-called Jewish Church of that time. Fourthly, the Christian ordinances, having been given before Paul, are supposed to have no real connection with the present economy, and therefore are relegated to the past, and may again have a place in the future Great Tribulation.

"Beside these points, there are many other unscriptural things which are advocated by Bullingerism. Many boldly advocate the sleep of the soul between death and resurrection, the annihilation of the wicked, the universal salvation of all men and demons, the denial of the eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the denial of the personality of the Holy Spirit. All these evil doctrines find congenial soil in Bullingerism or Ultra-dispensationalism."

"But wait!" You're thinking, "I don't believe those things!" Well, neither do I, but these are their tactics. As far as most Acts 2 folks are concerned, we agree with Bullinger's far out views regarding soul sleep, annihilation of the wicked, universalism, and that the Body of Christ did not start until Acts 28. You either believe in their interpretation of dispensationalism or you are an extremist like Bullinger. They do not recognize any middle ground. This is what we are up against.

In the above quote, Ironside lists some the "outstanding tenets" of what he calls "ultra-dispensationalism." While this is a convenient label, it does not Biblically address the issues. Let us examine what Ironside said (and everyone else seems to repeat) and see if we agree or not.

"First, it is insisted that the four Gospels are entirely Jewish and have no real message for the Church": We do not believe that the four gospels have no real message for the church—Paul says that ALL Scripture is profitable. However, we do believe (because we hold to a literal historical interpretation of the Bible) that Christ's earthly ministry was in keeping with Israel's prophetic kingdom program (Matt. 10:5-6; 15:24). We find application in the gospels to be sure, but to say that the basic message of the gospels is directed to the Body of Christ is not being consistent or literal. As Scofield says in his reference Bible, "The Epistles of the Apostle Paul have a very distinctive character....Through Paul alone we know that the church is not an organization, but an organism, the Body of Christ; instinct with His life, and heavenly in calling, promise, and destiny. Through him alone we know the nature, purpose, and form of organization of local churches, and the right conduct of such gatherings. Through him alone do we know that `we shall not all sleep,' that `the dead in Christ shall rise first,' and that living saints shall be `changed' and caught up to meet the Lord in the air at His return. But to Paul was also committed the unfolding of the doctrines of grace…Paul, converted by the personal ministry of the Lord in glory, is distinctively the witness to a glorified Christ, Head over all things to the church which is His Body, as the Eleven were to Christ in the flesh." And if, according to traditional dispensationalism, the Body of Christ started at Pentecost, how can it be found retroactively in the gospels? The message that Peter preached at Pentecost was an offer of the millennial kingdom to Israel (Acts 2:22) conditional upon their repentance and recognition of Jesus as their Messiah—something that we now know will not happen until after the tribulation.

"Secondly, it is maintained that in the book of Acts we do not have the Church, the Body of Christ, but that the word ekklesia (church), as it is used in that book, refers to a different Church altogether than that of Paul's Prison Epistles": You'd think they would at least understand this! Regarding the assembly in the book of Acts, we have both "churches" mentioned, depending on the context. If you see the Body of Christ in the gospels, you are closer to a covenant position than a dispensational one. If the Body is found in the gospels, then to be consistent, it also has to be found in the Old Testament prophetic program as well. It was Bullinger (with whom we do not agree) who said that the Body of Christ did not start until the close of the book of Acts and that only Paul's prison epistles are for us today.

"Thirdly, it is contended that Paul did not receive his special revelation of the mystery of the Body until his imprisonment in Rome, and that his Prison Epistles alone reveal this truth and are, strictly speaking, the only portion of the Holy Scriptures given to the members of His Body": We do not agree with Bullinger on this point either. We do say that Paul received a special revelation (Gal. 1:11-12), but we do not agree that only his prison epistles are applicable to us today. Paul began to receive his special revelation of the mystery upon his conversion in Acts 9.

"Fourthly, the Christian ordinances, having been given before Paul, are supposed to have no real connection with the present economy, and therefore are relegated to the past, and may again have a place in the future Great Tribulation": Regarding the "ordinances" of the church, there is no place in Scripture where water baptism and the Lord's supper are linked. The Lord's Supper is a memorial that we are instructed in I Corinthians 11 to keep "until He come." However, we do feel that water baptism is a Jewish ordinance and is something that was phased out during the transition period. It is also rarely pointed out that we are not unique in understanding that water baptism is not for today. Other groups throughout church history, such as the Quakers, have also come to this same conclusion.

"Many boldly advocate the sleep of the soul between death and resurrection, the annihilation of the wicked, the universal salvation of all men and demons, the denial of the eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the denial of the personality of the Holy Spirit. All these evil doctrines find congenial soil in Bullingerism or Ultra-dispensationalism": This is the worst sort of guilt by association, but I'm sure you see the implication. If you believe in a mid-Acts position, then, according to them, you also believe in these extreme and unscriptural viewpoints as well. By associating us with these cult-like beliefs we can be discredited without ever having to answer our Biblical arguments.

This is what we are up against. These are the same battles, misunderstandings, and deliberate misrepresentations that Pastor Stam has had to fight against for over 60 years—and we must continue to do so today if the gospel of the grace of God is going to continue to go forward.

Yet rather than discourage us, these things should motivate us. We know what we have found. We know how confused we used to be. We can honestly say that this is a more consistent and literal approach to Scripture. We no longer have to explain away what the Bible clearly says in verses such as Acts 2:38. We know that by reading the Body of Christ back into the gospels, we rob them of their distinctive kingdom character. By not understanding the difference we either have to make the clear statements in the gospels (such as a distinction between Jew and Gentile and water baptism) conform to Paul's epistles (where he says there is no difference between Jew and Greek, and that he is the apostle to the Gentiles) by explaining them away or we have to read the gospels into Paul's epistles and make them conform to the message in the gospels (which is what John MacArthur has done with "Lordship Salvation").

We are not the wild-eyed radicals that the theological media tries to portray us as. We are in agreement with the overwhelming majority of traditional dispensationalism. Our two primary points of disagreement are that we see the Body of Christ starting with the conversion and call of the Apostle Paul and that water baptism is not a requirement for this dispensation.

Let us stand firm in proclaiming the unique message revealed to and through the Apostle Paul. It is like telling others about our faith in Christ. We know what it has done for us. We know that it has cleared away our confusion. Let us graciously and boldly share with others what this message has done for us.

Endnotes

1. If you can find someone who has a copy of The Controversy (it's now out of print), you can read more about Ironside's history as related to the Grace Movement.

2. William MacDonald, "Distinguishing things that differ," Up-look, July/August 1999, pp. 11-12.

3. Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth, H. A. Ironside, Loizeaux Brothers, New York, 1938.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Bill read the entire bible sir!
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Bill read the entire bible sir!

(b)erry STUDY the entire Bible.


Now go away your starting to bother me.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
bill states:

quote:
errory STUDY the entire Bible.


Now go away your starting to bother me.


hopefully the word of YHWH Yahweh will convict you sir!


[hug]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
bill states:

quote:
errory STUDY the entire Bible.


Now go away your starting to bother me.


hopefully the word of YHWH Yahweh will convict you sir!


[hug]

First off speak English.

The Lord judges me not you. The Spirit convicts me not you.

and most importantly, don't miss this....

The Father Loves me to provide all this for me not you.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
bill states:

quote:
First off speak English.

The Lord judges me not you. The Spirit convicts me not you.

and most importantly, don't miss this....

The Father Loves me to provide all this for me not you.


Sir do you not understand the english letterw YHWH..ond day you surely will!

and the english word and letters Yahushua?


You start you ugly arrogance, and rudeness when your losing an argument...

Causing me to be on the borderline and probably have crossed over into strife..


Im done with you if David allows your teaching of "another gospel", its not my place to keep on showing the truth.......


Enough of you sad evil teachings, and arrogant name calling, of which Carol has had to edit many times, and your name calling of Christ and calling HIM a liar..im sorry but im done with you sir..The Lord has given me direction to leave you to your folly!

Bible says:

quote:
Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.


Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit


 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
bill states:

quote:
First off speak English.

The Lord judges me not you. The Spirit convicts me not you.

and most importantly, don't miss this....

The Father Loves me to provide all this for me not you.


Sir do you not understand the english letterw YHWH..ond day you surely will!

and the english word and letters Yahushua?


You start you ugly arrogance, and rudeness when your losing an argument...

Causing me to be on the borderline and probably have crossed over into strife..


Im done with you if David allows your teaching of "another gospel", its not my place to keep on showing the truth.......


Enough of you sad evil teachings, and arrogant name calling, of which Carol has had to edit many times, and your name calling of Christ and calling HIM a liar..im sorry but im done with you sir..The Lord has given me direction to leave you to your folly!

Bible says:

quote:
Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.


Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit


And billy threw a big old rock. Hugh!


And the guilty dog did bark!
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.


Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.


Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit

Do you have a double vision sight?
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
I think he does.

Paul used the expression "another gospel" in Galatians 1 when he was describing the legalists who perverted the Gospel of Grace.

barry is trying to take Paul's words and apply them to the exact opposite of the way Paul intended them! barry is saying that the Gospel of Grace is another gospel.

Either barry has never studied Galatians, or else he feels qualified to twist scripture to mean the opposite of its original meaning.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Turning the Grace of God into Lasciviousness

n his letter to the church, Jude gives a dire warning. He writes, "To them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called...it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares...ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 1-4).

Jude is forewarning us that false shepherds will steal into God's house with one goal in mind: to turn the Lord's grace into lasciviousness. He's saying, "Satan is sending a certain false doctrine to infiltrate the church. And it's going to come through preachers, teachers and evangelists. They'll take God's grace and subtly twist it, manipulating it, until finally it produces lasciviousness in God's people."

To fully grasp the seriousness of Jude's warning, we need to understand the meaning of lasciviousness. This term embodies every conceivable strain of sin. In literal terms, lasciviousness means "lacking in moral discipline, having no regard for accepted moral standards." The word comes from the Latin "lascivia," meaning loose, runaway passion and lust. It signifies licentiousness, lawlessness, the casting off of all restraints. It also represents all that's filthy, degrading, lewd and obscene.

Jesus called lasciviousness a sin of the heart, "that which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness" (Mark 7:20-22).

Like Jude, the apostle Paul also addressed the lasciviousness he saw taking place in the church. He wrote to the Corinthians in blunt terms, "I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would...and that I shall bewail [mourn for] many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed" (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

Now, in this same passage, Paul calls the Corinthians his "dearly beloved." Indeed, these people were Paul's children in the Lord. And they were incredibly blessed by God. They had been mentored by Paul himself, Timothy, Titus and other godly ministers. And Paul reminded them, "We do all things...for your edifying" (12:19).

As we read Paul's two letters to this church, we see the incredibly powerful teaching he brought to them. He wrote on the resurrection, the coming of the Lord, the judgment seat of Christ, death to sin, righteousness by faith, heaven, hell. Paul faithfully warned these people, wooed them, pleaded with them. Without question, no other body of believers had been so lovingly pastored, so presented with convicting truth, and so edified by the gospel of grace.

Moreover, the Corinthians were blessed beyond Paul's teaching. They had experienced powerful movements and workings of the Holy Spirit in their midst. And they'd been endowed with many spiritual gifts, including healings, prophecies, tongues, interpretations, divine revelations. This church was a vibrant, prophetic, on-fire body.

Yet, incredibly, a number of these same blessed believers continued to live in immorality. Paul accused "many" of them of being lascivious (12:21). He wrote, "This is the third time I am coming to you...I told you before...now I write to them which heretofore have sinned...that, if I come again, I will not spare...Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction" (13:1-2, 10).

Paul didn't mince words. He was saying, "Twice now I've warned you of the sin in your congregation. You've all sat under godly, convicting preaching. You've all partaken of God's gift of grace. And yet some of you have twisted that grace by deliberately continuing to live in uncleanness. I remind you, my gift is edification, not destruction. I'm called to build you up in the precious faith. But when I come back to you a third time, I may have no choice but to deal with you harshly. I won't spare anyone who's still indulging in sin."

I ask you: how could these abundantly blessed people choose to remain in such a sordid condition? We expect the world to be lascivious, freely indulging their lusts, but not God's people. Evidently, however, this sin had run rampant in God's house.
We May Ask This Question About the Church Today.

Every Sunday, professing Christians gather in God's house to worship, hear his Word and enjoy fellowship. Yet many of these same holy-appearing people lead lust-filled lives. They're fornicating, carrying on affairs, feeding their addictions to pornography. Tell me, how could any enlightened believer continue to do such things?

First, consider the prophecy in Revelation 12. We're told an enraged devil will invade the earth in the last days to seduce God's people: "The devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child?And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood" (Revelation 12:12-15).

This passage describes Satan's attack on the church in these last days. The devil is going to spew forth a flood of filth so vast and powerful, it will carry away even many of God's elect. Paul told the Corinthians this was already happening among them, as many had already been swept up in Satan's flood of lasciviousness.

Right now, I believe lasciviousness has become an epidemic in the church. From coast to coast, millions of people are immersing themselves in erotic filth. Even in the hills of Kentucky, on farms in Iowa and ranches in Idaho, people of all ages are feeding their souls on smut. It's being piped right into their homes via satellite. This flood of filth has become so pervasive, even elderly grandmas and grandpas are indulging in it.

I prophesied this phenomenon in my 1974 book, The Vision. This was before VCRs were invented, at a time when even the word sex couldn't be used on TV. I wrote:

How will Satan attempt to vex and deceive God's chosen people? He's going to do it by seducing mankind and creating a moral landslide. He's going to open the floodgates of hell and seek to baptize the world in erotic filth, smut and sensuality. This moral landslide will surpass anything the human mind can conjure. Already, demonic spirits of lust are sweeping over the nations, bringing nudity, perversion and a flood of filth.

There's a dirt bath coming to vex the minds and souls of the most devout Christians alive today. The Bible said Lot vexed his soul night and day by the things he saw and heard in Sodom. Christians are soon going to be exposed to such violent filth and sensuality that it will take a firm grip on God to survive. Those who are on the fence are going to fall flat on their faces. Those who don't enter into the ark of God's safety are going to be swept away by this flood of filth.

Major TV networks will be caught up in this landslide. I predict the network programs will soon attempt bare-breasted scenes. Toplessness will be the new fad to those who are trying to liberalize the media. It will be done "tastefully" at first. But when the artistic community joins in a chorus of praise for this great breakthrough in freedom, floodgates are going to open, and then anything will go. Even clergymen will applaud nudity on TV, saying it's a healthy development. Surprisingly, those who speak out against it will not be ministers and those known as devout Christians, but rather those in politics and in Hollywood itself.

Be warned, in the not-too-distant future the most wicked, X-rated, porno movies will be shown on select cable after midnight. Cable TV is already a target of pushers of pornography. In a few major cities in the United States, Canada and Europe, triple-X-rated movies are available in some hotels. They're coming from Sweden, Denmark and the United States. These vile films will project nudity, sexual intercourse, homosexuality, animal perversion and sadism.

People will pay for these erotic movies to be piped directly into their living rooms...It will be played through an electronic attachment, piped right into their homes. And our homes will be called pleasure palaces.

I wrote this 27 years ago. Not only has every bit of it come to pass, it is now sweeping out of control, even in the church.

Yet, most Christians who read this message probably think it doesn't apply to them. They wonder, "Why would you write this kind of message to servants who never indulge in any kind of lasciviousness? We need to be built up and edified."

Let me explain why I'm writing this warning to godly, devout believers:
This Is Not a Warning to Those Who Sneak Into Porn Theaters Or Rent Filthy Videos.

I'm not writing this for Christians who indulge in filth, whether through TV, videos or the Internet. Rather, my aim is to make you examine the kind of gospel you believe. This involves your concept of grace. I want you to test whether you'll allow into your heart any leaven of false doctrine about the meaning of God's grace. Ultimately, this can be a matter of life or death.

You see, the devil is probably not bent on hooking you with filth. He may know he can never tempt you with gross sin. However, if he can pervert your concept of grace - if he can get you to see grace as an excuse for permissiveness - then he can start you down a path to bondage. Soon you'll be doing things you never could have conceived. And, worse, he will have sold you the lie that it's okay for you to indulge your lust.

For this reason, Jude doesn't beat around the bush. He tells us right away why so many in God's house are being carried away by the devil's flood of lasciviousness: "There are certain men crept in un-awares...ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 4). In this one verse, Jude lays bare Satan's entire plan to deceive God's elect. The devil is going to subtly bring ministers of all kinds into the church to pervert the gospel of grace.

Yet, if you have a truly biblical understanding of grace, the enemy can't deceive you. He'll never be able to seduce you into lasciviousness. So, what is true biblical grace?
True Biblical Grace Is Holy-Ghost Empowerment To Live a Godly Life and Deny Ungodliness.

"The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:11-13).

This passage reveals two traits that biblical grace always produces in the life of a believer: 1. an anticipation and longing for the coming of the Lord, and 2. a godly fear and holy reverence for the Lord. These two fruits of grace's work are inseparable. We simply can't possess one without the other.

The writer of Hebrews urges us, "Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear" (Hebrews 12:28). This verse ties grace directly to reverence. In short, reverence is a concept of God that includes awe, respect and soberness.

The apostle Peter also ties grace to sober reverence: "Gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13). Peter isn't encouraging us to wear long faces or to walk around joylessly. On the contrary, he's speaking of a reverence that produces true gladness in the heart. He's saying, in essence, "If you have a revelation of Jesus' grace - his love, holiness and beauty - it will produce in you awe and reverence."

Now, when Jude says ungodly men will infiltrate the church, his word for ungodly means "men without reverence." In other words, these teachers will bring lightness and levity into God's house. They'll attempt to distort and pervert all reverence for the things of the Lord.

Jeremiah prophesied of such ungodly men, "Behold, I am against them...saith the Lord...(that) cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness" (Jeremiah 23:32). The word for lightness in this verse means froth or frivolity. Jeremiah is saying, "These false teachers laugh at things that are to be revered, respected and viewed with awe. They ridicule the soberness that comes with true worship of the Lord."

What is the devil's aim by bringing in a spirit of lightness? It's to make you believe the Lord isn't serious about sin. Satan wants you to think there is no wrath at all in God, that his grace covers all righteous judgment. So, at times you'll hear the enemy whisper, "Don't fret about your lust. There is abundant mercy and forgiveness in the Lord."

Paul says all these ungodly ministers "hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18). In other words, they've known the truth and tasted it. They've been edified and reproved by it. "For God hath shewed it to them" (1:19). Yet, in spite of being blessed by God's truth, they turned from it. They refused to forsake their lascivious ways, and instead gave themselves over to their lusts. In turn, God gave them over fully to the deceit of their sin.

When Jude speaks of "turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" (Jude 4), the word turn here means modified, something added. It comes from a root word meaning to prostrate truth, that is, to lay truth on the ground and make it something passive. In short, God's grace was once something upright and effective in these ungodly men's lives. But because they wouldn't forsake their sin, they laid the truth flat and trampled on it, removing all its meaning and power. As Isaiah cried, "Truth is fallen in the street...Yea, truth faileth" (Isaiah 59:14-15).

I see God's truth being handled this way throughout the church today. I recently watched a videotape from a seeker-friendly church that held a "David Letterman Night." The pastor listed the top ten reasons why kids get bored in church. Some of the things he mentioned were so foolish, so far removed from the true character of Christ, I can't repeat them. Yet everyone in the congregation was laughing and applauding. That pastor was turning the gospel of grace into frivolity. By subtly twisting its meaning, he was laying it on the ground and removing its power.

You may wonder: where do such ungodly ministers come from? How are they able to creep into the church to pervert God's grace? Did the devil pick them out of some vile porn theater and dress them up as angels of light? Or, are they atheists who have disguised themselves as preachers and bluffed their way into the pulpit?

No. Paul says of such men, "God showed them the truth" (see Romans 1:19). At one time, these men knew the full meaning of grace. Yet somehow, they became addicted to an unforsaken lust. At that point, they began to hold the truth in unrighteousness. They had to invent a false grace to excuse their lasciviousness. So, now they're preaching a false Christ, through a perverted concept of grace.
Most Readers of This Message Aren't Like the Men Jude Describes.

Jude calls such ungodly ministers "filthy dreamers [who] defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities" (Jude 8). By contrast, I believe most people who are reading this message are God-fearing, obedient servants. They aren't dabbling in filth. They've forsaken lasciviousness, and are walking in grace that leads to holiness.

Still, I believe some readers may struggle with what I call "lapses into lasciviousness." These Christians haven't given themselves over to their lust, but they do occasionally have an encounter with something unclean. We see an example of this in a report released by a hotel specializing in conventions. The report stated that the greatest number of in-room, pay-per-view pornographic movies were requested during a religious convention. In fact, more porn movies were piped into rooms during that church convention than during all other types of conventions held there.

I realize that many ministers and Christian workers may be addicted to some kind of lust. Surveys among pastors have shown this to be overwhelmingly true. However, I believe many such believers are plagued more by occasional lapses into lasciviousness. After each indulgence, these struggling servants feel the weight of their guilt, and they repent. Moreover, they long to be delivered from their occasional lapses.

I want to address all such Christians right now: Satan realizes you're going to cry out to God every time you sin. And he knows you're always going to receive God's forgiveness. So, as long as you still have a measure of the fear of God in your heart, he can't bind you to any lust or sin. How, then, does the enemy eventually get hold of God's people? How does he recruit those who have known true grace, arm them with a false gospel, and send them into churches to try to deceive the elect?

The only way the devil can bind you to a sin is by selling you a lie. In short, he has to convince you his lie is really the truth. And he does this most often by persuading Christians they can still hold to God's truth while indulging a sin. You may object, "How could Satan ever persuade any sincere Christian that it's okay to sin? I could never believe God overlooks or excuses my sin."

Satan sells his lie by persuading Christians that grace is simply a never-ending river of forgiveness. He whispers to us, "You can keep going back to your sin, as long as you keep coming back to the altar. Didn't Jesus say we're to forgive others at least 490 times? Surely your loving Savior will forgive you many more times than that. As long as you have a repentant heart and keep mourning over your sin, you'll be okay. You can indulge your lust a thousand times, and he'll freely forgive you every time."

This sounds so close to the truth. Indeed, there is no end to God's forgiveness for those who come to him with a truly repentant heart. So, this statement truly is 95 percent gospel. However, the other 5 percent is pure poison. And it will eventually destroy your soul. Satan's "5 percent lie" about grace is the demonic leaven that ruins the whole loaf.
Do You Think, "This Could Never Happen to Me"?

Perhaps you're thinking, "I go to a church where a godly pastor preaches a solid, biblical word. I don't know any ministers who twist the gospel of grace into permissiveness. The sermons I hear are about New Covenant grace, and God's mercy toward those who struggle. I've learned that, although I have no power in my flesh to overcome sin, God's Spirit will empower me to obey his Word."

You've grasped an incredibly freeing, life-changing truth. Yet, if Satan sees you lapse occasionally into lasciviousness, he'll realize you have a liking for your sin. He'll know you don't really want to be free. Moreover, through your continued sin, you've given him entry to your mind. And that's exactly how he'll implant a lie in you. He'll inject in you a single, deadly distortion of truth that sounds something like this:

"Isn't this truth wonderfully freeing? In yourself, you have no ability to resist sin. So God promises to send the Holy Ghost to do for you what you can't do. All you have to do is keep mourning, and your lapses won't matter. The Holy Spirit knows when to step in and empower you. You certainly can't be judged for a sin you can't control."

Do you see the lie inserted in this gospel of grace? It's the lie that Christians have no personal responsibility for their sin. And it leads to blaming God for your sin. You'll say, "Why didn't the Holy Ghost come when I was tempted? I was waiting for him to empower me, but he never showed up. That's why I gave in to lust. It's not my fault."

The truth is, if you don't want to be free of your lust, you'll take God's gift of grace and run with it straight into sin. But Paul spells out the deception of this thinking: "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid" (Romans 6:1-2).

Thank God, Jude has given us three safeguards against the seductions of Satan's lies concerning grace. Jude writes, "But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life" (Jude 20-21). Note three things in this verse:

1. We're to build up our faith. How? By the diligent study of God's Word. However, faith comes not just by reading the Bible, but by hearing - or, doing - what we read. We're to read God's Word, apply it to our hearts, and accept its reproof. That will produce in us a spiritual soberness. Then, no matter what kind of message we hear preached, we won't be carried away by the lies or lightness of any man.
2. We're to pray in the Holy Ghost. This means we don't just pray in church, but by shutting ourselves in with the Lord in private. We're to ask God's Spirit to shine his light on our hearts, and receive his correction, so we can obtain grace for any lack.
3. We're to be anxious for nothing, and instead look for our Lord's coming. If we're studying God's Word and praying in the Spirit, then we can't help but look for Jesus' sudden appearing. We'll know this world is not our home, and we'll expect our Lord to come for us at any moment.

If you're applying these three safeguards, then you'll understand true grace. And you won't be seduced into lasciviousness by any perverted message of grace. God has assured us in his covenant: "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you...And I will...cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Ezekiel 36:26-27). God swears to put his Spirit in us, who will empower us to obey everything our Lord demands of us.

Yet, God has attached a condition to this promise. He says, "I the Lord have spoken it, and I will do it. Thus saith the Lord God; I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them" (36:36-37).

Here is where our personal responsibility comes in. We're not to live passively, always waiting for the Holy Ghost to show up whenever we're tempted. Our job is to continually inquire of the Lord, that is, to be prayerful. He's telling us, "If you truly want power to overcome sin, then you need to seek me for it. If you come after me with all your heart, in true diligence, I'll fulfill every promise of my covenant in your life."

Each of us has within us the ability to pray, to read God's Word, and to look for Jesus' soon return. If we do these things, Jude declares, we'll reap the benefits of this prayer: "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" (Jude 24).

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
I think he does.

Paul used the expression "another gospel" in Galatians 1 when he was describing the legalists who perverted the Gospel of Grace.

barry is trying to take Paul's words and apply them to the exact opposite of the way Paul intended them! barry is saying that the Gospel of Grace is another gospel.

Either barry has never studied Galatians, or else he feels qualified to twist scripture to mean the opposite of its original meaning.

Some peoples babes.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Turning the Grace of God into Lasciviousness


Sounds like the Family International

http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Loving_Jesus

Sickening
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Caorl states:


quote:
Carol Swenson

Moderator
Member # 6929

posted October 30, 2010 03:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Turning the Grace of God into Lasciviousness


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sounds like the Family International

http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Loving_Jesus

Sickening

Yes the example you have shown Sister Carol and link is a Prime example of the false teaching that Grace is a license to sin.....its a 5% Truth mixed with 95% lies!


Its the 95% truth and the 5% lie that will get most unaware christians...

Borrowed from David Wilkerson:
quote:

You see, the devil is probably not bent on hooking you with filth. He may know he can never tempt you with gross sin. However, if he can pervert your concept of grace - if he can get you to see grace as an excuse for permissiveness - then he can start you down a path to bondage. Soon you'll be doing things you never could have conceived. And, worse, he will have sold you the lie that it's okay for you to indulge your lust.

For this reason, Jude doesn't beat around the bush. He tells us right away why so many in God's house are being carried away by the devil's flood of lasciviousness: "There are certain men crept in un-awares...ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 4). In this one verse, Jude lays bare Satan's entire plan to deceive God's elect. The devil is going to subtly bring ministers of all kinds into the church to pervert the gospel of grace.

Yet, if you have a truly biblical understanding of grace, the enemy can't deceive you. He'll never be able to seduce you into lasciviousness. So, what is true biblical grace?
True Biblical Grace Is Holy-Ghost Empowerment To Live a Godly Life and Deny Ungodliness.

"The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:11-13).

[/QUOTE]

To be honest, Stam has written some real good articles....

To me the way i understand scriptures, Stam has embraced along with J.C. O'Hair a twisted view of scriptures, to my understanding.

Subtle but true, the teachings about "the Mystery" that only Paul knew goes against the very writings of Paul....


Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,


1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:


Ephesians 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,


Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Ephesians 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,


Colossians 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:


13.Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


14.Colossians 2:2
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;


15.Colossians 4:3
Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:


Read full context of what the mystery is and it was not only Paul that knen what it was..Read accompanying scripture to get the context.

Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit



Now Ephesians 3 is a great key to this understanding!


Ephesians 3
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

13Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.





The very heart of this "mystery" is

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:




The grace Paul recived was : Paul was persecuting the "chuch" and made waste of it!

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.


Galatians 1:13
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:


This writing of Paul shows that the "chuch" was BEFORE..Paul being told the "mystery"

It shows the grace and mercy shown Paul; thinking he was serving YHWH and i reality he [Paul] was fighting against God, although done in ignorance!


Peter was shown also a sighn, the unclean animals in avision..and told to eat!

YHWH was showing Peter..not to call common [unclean] what YHWH said is clean!...THus talking about the Gentiles, and sent Peter to Cornelius's house.....


Now that being said, i think the Berean Bible Society went off base, but not with just this teaching in itself...that the Church did not start..until Paul; but the twisted view of grace that it holds....

A 95%/5% false veiw of grace, subtly changing the true grace of the Messiah Yahushua [Jesus] into lawlessness....

Grafting in of the Gentiles!....which by nature are contrary to the vine; but can also be cut off and the original be grafted back in..
More later...work calls
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Berry worthy walk?

"Now that being said, i think the Berean Bible Society went off base, but not with just this teaching in itself...that the Church did not start..until Paul; but the twisted view of grace that it holds...."


Carol Swenson

Moderator
Member # 6929

posted October 30, 2010 04:11 AM
barrykind

quote:
This is what this false gospel that the Berean Bible Society teaches.....fleshly grace;

Not the true grace of Yahuhsua and Paul, and the apostles..


Shame on you, barrykind. Shame on you. This is not what they teach at all. You are bearing false witness.(AGAIN)

From the Berean Bible Society...


Christian Walk

Not only does understanding the gospel of the grace of God provide a proper motive for us to share our faith, it also gives us the proper motive and means to live the Christian life effectively.

Proper Method

By what method or means are we enabled to live a proper Christian life? The fact that a proper walk is desired by God is evidenced by the many times in Paul’s epistles that we are exhorted to “walk worthy” or to practically live up to what God has called us to be in Christ. In Ephesians 4:1 Paul beseeches us that we would “walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called” (Eph 4:1). (See also Rom.6:4; Eph. 2:10; 5:8; Col. 1:10; 2:6; 4:5; I Thes. 2:12; 4:1).

But while we may readily admit the need to live in such a way that honors Christ, we also ask “How?” What is the means to living what some call a “victorious Christian life”?

Some would have us believe that the way to walk worthy is to “speak the word of faith” and to command Satan to leave us alone. Any lapse or failure to achieve victory is blamed on us. “You didn’t have enough faith” we are told. Unfortunately, those who try to live out this misapplied teaching find themselves frustrated because it simply does not work in this present evil age. In this age, we are not exhorted to bind or rebuke Satan, but to put on the whole armor of God so that we can stand against him:

“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand” (Eph 6:11-13).

THIS is the secret to a dynamic Christian life! Not in “speaking the word of faith” or other such New Age and in some cases, occultic practices! There is no magic formula, no quick and easy shortcut to Christian maturity and victory. Maturity comes only as we read and submit to God’s Word in our life. Victory comes only by the daily sacrifice and submission of ourselves to God (Rom. 12:1-2).

Proper Motivation

The gospel of the grace of God also gives us the proper motivation for living righteously before God. Our primary motivation to live as we should is the overwhelming love of God that is poured out upon us (Rom. 5:5; II Cor. 5:14; Gal. 5:6; Eph. 2:4; 3:19). It is this love that is supposed to motivate us to in turn love God and others (Eph. 5:2).

The reason that we are separated from the world and unto God is not because of some legalistic mindset, but because of our love for others. Paul says that he is careful to not offend the unsaved (Jews or Gentiles) or the saved (the church of God) and that he doesn’t seek his own profit, “but the profit of many, that they may be saved” (I Cor. 10:32-33).

This is why we refrain from certain activities. Not because we think we are more pious or holy than others, but to make sure that we do not place a stumbling block in front of them (i.e., trip them up) spiritually.

“We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not Himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached Thee fell on Me” (Rom. 15:1-3).

And:

“But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak… And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ” (I Cor. 8:9,11,12).

We see that the love and grace of God toward us and our love for others for the sake of the gospel should constrain us to live righteously and holy in this present evil age. Our motivation should not be what pleases us, but that which leads to the edification and salvation of others.

Another seldom mentioned aspect of the dispensation of Grace that should motivate us to walk as we should is the Judgment Seat of Christ. As stewards we will be required to give an account before God as to how we have administered the gospel that He has entrusted to us (Rom. 14:12; I Cor. 4:2; II Cor. 5:10).

We do not have to ever worry about eternal damnation or judgment for sin because that was paid for by the blood of Christ and we are secure in Him (Rom. 8:31-34; Col. 2:10).

However, there will be an accounting. Just as God’s love compels us to serve Him (as that of a son who wants to please his earthly father), fear of His displeasure likewise motivates us as well. Just as an earthly son does not want to experience the displeasure of his father, so we should also be concerned about our Father’s displeasure at the Bema Seat of Christ.

But we must remember that displeasure does not equal damnation or loss of sonship. My son may do something that displeases me, but that will never change the fact that he is my son and heir. While there is nothing that can change the established fact that we are sons of God and heirs with Christ, this does not mean that our Father cannot be displeased with us, either here or at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

This is why Paul, speaking of the children of Israel, writes in I Corinthians 10:5, “But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.” And he goes on to say, “Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted” (I Cor. 10:6). Paul is saying that just as God was not well pleased with many (not a few) of the Israelites, He is often not pleased with the Church, the Body of Christ today—in a practical sense. The Israelites were still His chosen people. We are still members of the Body of Christ. But being in the Body of Christ and knowing certain truths does not mean that we are living in such a way that is well-pleasing to God.

Some believers have unfortunately (and to their detriment) misinterpreted II Timothy 2:15. They mistakenly think that “study” simply means to academically study God’s Word and know the facts about God’s program for today as revealed through the Apostle Paul.

To “study” means to be diligent. Diligent unto what? Diligent unto the end of being “approved unto God.” Approved unto God refers to the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10). What will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ? Our knowledge of the Scriptures? Our knowledge of “right division”? No! What will be judged at the Bema Seat of Christ are “the things done in his [our] body, according to that he [we] hath done, whether it be good or bad.” Notice that it is our works that will be judged—our walk, not our talk.

The last part of II Timothy 2:15 “rightly dividing the Word of truth” is the means to the end, not the end itself. “Rightly dividing the Word of truth” or knowing God’s program for today is what gives us the means or way to “be diligent” and live our life in such a way that we will be “approved unto God” at the Bema Seat of Christ.

Berean Bible Society
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/999291000.html
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Bill states:

quote:
WildB

Advanced Member
Member # 2917

posted October 31, 2010 06:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berry worthy walk?

"Now that being said, i think the Berean Bible Society went off base, but not with just this teaching in itself...that the Church did not start..until Paul; but the twisted view of grace that it holds...."


Carol Swenson

Moderator
Member # 6929

posted October 30, 2010 04:11 AM
barrykind

quote:
This is what this false gospel that the Berean Bible Society teaches.....fleshly grace;

Not the true grace of Yahuhsua and Paul, and the apostles..

Shame on you, barrykind. Shame on you. This is not what they teach at all. You are bearing false witness.(AGAIN)

From the Berean Bible Society...


Christian Walk

Not only does understanding the gospel of the grace of God provide a proper motive for us to share our faith, it also gives us the proper motive and means to live the Christian life effectively.

Proper Method

By what method or means are we enabled to live a proper Christian life? The fact that a proper walk is desired by God is evidenced by the many times in Paul’s epistles that we are exhorted to “walk worthy” or to practically live up to what God has called us to be in Christ. In Ephesians 4:1 Paul beseeches us that we would “walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called” (Eph 4:1). (See also Rom.6:4; Eph. 2:10; 5:8; Col. 1:10; 2:6; 4:5; I Thes. 2:12; 4:1).

But while we may readily admit the need to live in such a way that honors Christ, we also ask “How?” What is the means to living what some call a “victorious Christian life”?

Some would have us believe that the way to walk worthy is to “speak the word of faith” and to command Satan to leave us alone. Any lapse or failure to achieve victory is blamed on us. “You didn’t have enough faith” we are told. Unfortunately, those who try to live out this misapplied teaching find themselves frustrated because it simply does not work in this present evil age. In this age, we are not exhorted to bind or rebuke Satan, but to put on the whole armor of God so that we can stand against him:

“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand” (Eph 6:11-13).

THIS is the secret to a dynamic Christian life! Not in “speaking the word of faith” or other such New Age and in some cases, occultic practices! There is no magic formula, no quick and easy shortcut to Christian maturity and victory. Maturity comes only as we read and submit to God’s Word in our life. Victory comes only by the daily sacrifice and submission of ourselves to God (Rom. 12:1-2).

Proper Motivation

The gospel of the grace of God also gives us the proper motivation for living righteously before God. Our primary motivation to live as we should is the overwhelming love of God that is poured out upon us (Rom. 5:5; II Cor. 5:14; Gal. 5:6; Eph. 2:4; 3:19). It is this love that is supposed to motivate us to in turn love God and others (Eph. 5:2).

The reason that we are separated from the world and unto God is not because of some legalistic mindset, but because of our love for others. Paul says that he is careful to not offend the unsaved (Jews or Gentiles) or the saved (the church of God) and that he doesn’t seek his own profit, “but the profit of many, that they may be saved” (I Cor. 10:32-33).

This is why we refrain from certain activities. Not because we think we are more pious or holy than others, but to make sure that we do not place a stumbling block in front of them (i.e., trip them up) spiritually.

“We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not Himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached Thee fell on Me” (Rom. 15:1-3).

And:

“But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak… And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ” (I Cor. 8:9,11,12).

We see that the love and grace of God toward us and our love for others for the sake of the gospel should constrain us to live righteously and holy in this present evil age. Our motivation should not be what pleases us, but that which leads to the edification and salvation of others.

Another seldom mentioned aspect of the dispensation of Grace that should motivate us to walk as we should is the Judgment Seat of Christ. As stewards we will be required to give an account before God as to how we have administered the gospel that He has entrusted to us (Rom. 14:12; I Cor. 4:2; II Cor. 5:10).

We do not have to ever worry about eternal damnation or judgment for sin because that was paid for by the blood of Christ and we are secure in Him (Rom. 8:31-34; Col. 2:10).

However, there will be an accounting. Just as God’s love compels us to serve Him (as that of a son who wants to please his earthly father), fear of His displeasure likewise motivates us as well. Just as an earthly son does not want to experience the displeasure of his father, so we should also be concerned about our Father’s displeasure at the Bema Seat of Christ.

But we must remember that displeasure does not equal damnation or loss of sonship. My son may do something that displeases me, but that will never change the fact that he is my son and heir. While there is nothing that can change the established fact that we are sons of God and heirs with Christ, this does not mean that our Father cannot be displeased with us, either here or at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

This is why Paul, speaking of the children of Israel, writes in I Corinthians 10:5, “But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.” And he goes on to say, “Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted” (I Cor. 10:6). Paul is saying that just as God was not well pleased with many (not a few) of the Israelites, He is often not pleased with the Church, the Body of Christ today—in a practical sense. The Israelites were still His chosen people. We are still members of the Body of Christ. But being in the Body of Christ and knowing certain truths does not mean that we are living in such a way that is well-pleasing to God.

Some believers have unfortunately (and to their detriment) misinterpreted II Timothy 2:15. They mistakenly think that “study” simply means to academically study God’s Word and know the facts about God’s program for today as revealed through the Apostle Paul.

To “study” means to be diligent. Diligent unto what? Diligent unto the end of being “approved unto God.” Approved unto God refers to the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10). What will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ? Our knowledge of the Scriptures? Our knowledge of “right division”? No! What will be judged at the Bema Seat of Christ are “the things done in his [our] body, according to that he [we] hath done, whether it be good or bad.” Notice that it is our works that will be judged—our walk, not our talk.

The last part of II Timothy 2:15 “rightly dividing the Word of truth” is the means to the end, not the end itself. “Rightly dividing the Word of truth” or knowing God’s program for today is what gives us the means or way to “be diligent” and live our life in such a way that we will be “approved unto God” at the Bema Seat of Christ.

Berean Bible Society
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/999291000.html

--------------------
That is all.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3801 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |

Actually Carol stated: Exactly:


[QUOTE] Carol Swenson

Moderator
Member # 6929

posted October 30, 2010 02:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
barrykind


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is what this false gospel that the Berean Bible Society teaches.....fleshly grace;

Not the true grace of Yahuhsua and Paul, and the apostles..


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shame on you, barrykind. Shame on you. This is not what they teach at all. You are bearing false witness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 4955 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |
You make it look like the whole post is Carol's in its entirety....Time stamp dont look right either unless carol posted it twice..could not find another shame on me any where..


[hug]
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
I posted the article yesterday

http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007467;p=2
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Yesw mam thats what i thought but it ws the short version and not the other part,,
Thanx....i love kitty cats... [wiggle7]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
What part of my previous posts Sister Carol do i not make my self clear or, do you think im off base?

Does Not the Berean Bible Society state:

1) water baptism is not for the church today?

2) The Church actually started with Paul and his learning of the "Mystery"?

3) That the 4 Gospel [albeit] are true and relevant; there not relevant for the "body of Christ"..the "church" of today; in which Paul started with the gentiles?

3)Do not those of the BBS, state that the books[edit sp] of James, Jude, Most all of acts is not for the Church of today?

Did i misquote anything so far sister?

i will get into more about the rest after i hear about your answer...

Now im not being contentious dear Sister Carol, i want to go point by point and research all the points out one by one;

i dont want to "false accuse " anyone..lets study closely..if you will.

Edit this [add] I know that many Hyper-Dispensationalists do not think that the "communion" "the Lord's supper" is for today; im not sure what the BBS teaches on that doctrine:..[end edit]

[thumbsup2] [hug]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
im not talking to you bill, iwas asking Carol

[Smile]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
What part of my previous posts Sister Carol do i not make my self clear or, do you think im off base?

Does Not the Berean Bible Society state:

1) water baptism is not for the church today?

2) The Church actually started with Paul and his learning of the "Mystery"?

3) That the 4 Gospel [albeit] are true and relevant; there not relevant for the "body of Christ"..the "church" of today; in which Paul started with the gentiles?

3)Do not those of the BBS, state that the bood of James, Jude, Most all of acts is not for the Church of today?

Did i misquote anything so far sister?

i will get into more about the rest after i hear about your answer...

Now im not being contentious dear Sister Carol, i want to go point by point and research all the points out one by one;

i dont want to "false accuse " anyone..lets study closely..if you will.

Edit this [add] I know that many Hyper-Dispensationalists do not think that the "communion" "the Lord's supper" is for today; im not sure what the BBS teaches on that doctrine:..[end edit]

[thumbsup2] [hug]

From page one. Please stop your drama.

WildB

Advanced Member
Member # 2917

posted October 17, 2010 07:56 PM
What does the Berean Bible Society believe?
An excellent question! Here is a copy of our doctrinal statement:


WE BELIEVE:
1) The verbal inspiration and plenary authority of the BIBLE in its original writings.

2) The eternal trinity of the GODHEAD.

3) The eternal deity, virgin birth, vicarious death, and spotless humanity of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

4) MANKIND by nature is sinful and under the condemnation of God.

5) Personal SALVATION is by God’s grace, through faith in the crucified, risen, and glorified Christ.

6) The ETERNAL SECURITY of all the saved.

7) The personality and deity of the HOLY SPIRIT.

8) The essential unity of all believers of the present dispensation as members of the one true Church, the BODY OF CHRIST.

9) The GIFTS enumerated in Ephesians 4:7-16, have been given for the building up of the Body of Christ, and of these, only evangelists, pastors, and teachers are in order during the present dispensation. The sign gifts of the Acts period were temporary in character, and have ceased.

10) The privilege and duty of all the saved to WALK by faith as children of light.

11) The Communion of the LORD’S SUPPER as revealed through Paul for the members of the Body of Christ “TILL HE COME.”

12) All believers are made members of the Body of Christ by One Divine BAPTISM, by which also they are identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. In the light of I Corinthians 1:17, Ephesians 4:5. and Colossians 2:12, we affirm that water baptism has no place in God’s spiritual program for the Body of Christ in this dispensation of grace.

13) The RESURRECTION of the Body.

14) The Pretribulation RAPTURE of the Church.

15) The personal, premillennial RETURN OF CHRIST to reign on earth.

16) The ETERNAL PUNISHMENT of the unsaved dead.

17) The MYSTERY “Hid in God” was the divine purpose to make of Jew and Gentile a whole new thing, that is, the Church, which is Christ’s Body. The revelation of this Mystery was committed to Paul, and it is in his writings alone that we find the doctrine, position, walk and destiny of the Church.


3. What is a "berean" anyway?
Thanks for asking. We get asked that a lot. Being called a Berean comes from Acts 17:10-11. In verse 11 it says that those from Berea (hence, the Bereans) were nobler than the people in Thessalonica because they "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

So, when we say that someone is a "Berean" we mean that they do two things: (1) They have an open mind and willingly receive the Word of God when it is taught to them and (2) But then, they check out what they were taught by comparing it with the Scriptures.

Both aspects are important. Some people are so closed minded that they will not even listen to anything new or that might threaten what they already know. Others are so gullible that they accept whatever is told them without ever checking it against what the Bible says. Both extremes are to be avoided.

A Berean is one who has a balanced viewpoint. We listen to what someone has to say because we are eager to learn the word of God more perfectly. We realize that we have not learned it all. But then, we take what we have heard and compare it with the Bible. Then, if both match, we have learned something and increased our knowledge of God's Word, rightly divided.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Yesw mam thats what i thought but it ws the short version and not the other part,,
Thanx....i love kitty cats... [wiggle7]

I posted the whole article on the "Another Gospel" topic. There is no "other part".

You said they teach fleshly grace. But they don't - they teach living righteously before God.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
What part of my previous posts Sister Carol do i not make my self clear or, do you think im off base?

Does Not the Berean Bible Society state:

1) water baptism is not for the church today?

2) The Church actually started with Paul and his learning of the "Mystery"?

3) That the 4 Gospel [albeit] are true and relevant; there not relevant for the "body of Christ"..the "church" of today; in which Paul started with the gentiles?

3)Do not those of the BBS, state that the books[edit sp] of James, Jude, Most all of acts is not for the Church of today?

Did i misquote anything so far sister?

i will get into more about the rest after i hear about your answer...

Now im not being contentious dear Sister Carol, i want to go point by point and research all the points out one by one;

i dont want to "false accuse " anyone..lets study closely..if you will.

Edit this [add] I know that many Hyper-Dispensationalists do not think that the "communion" "the Lord's supper" is for today; im not sure what the BBS teaches on that doctrine:..[end edit]

[thumbsup2] [hug]

barrykind,

WildB has posted their statement of faith several times, so you SHOULD know what they believe about the Lord's Supper.

Concerning baptism, here is a link to a Wikipedia article. It's long. Even if you just scan through it briefly you'll see that there are so many different beliefs about baptism it can make your head spin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism

It would be prideful to think our belief is the only right belief. The Berean Bible Society are not the only people who think that baptism is not necessary. However, if you think it's important to imitate the 1st century, they baptized people naked.

quote:
Until the Middle Ages, most baptisms were performed with the candidates completely naked—as is evidenced by most of the early portrayals of baptism (some of which are shown in this article), and the early Church Fathers and other Christian writers. Typical of these is Cyril of Jerusalem who wrote "On the Mysteries of Baptism" in the 4th Century (c. 350 A.D.):


About Paul's teaching, we know that Christ will not set up His earthly kingdom until He returns. The Lord and His 12 Apostles taught about that kingdom. This is a whole complicated topic in itself, but briefly, Paul taught the body of Christ how to live until then. Paul was taught by Christ, and Paul’s writing was inspired by the same Holy Spirit as all the rest of the Bible. Paul states that all scripture is profitable, and the moral teachings of our Lord are repeated in Paul's letters. I cherish every word my Lord spoke, but I don't fool myself into thinking that His earthly kingdom exists now.

To state it simply, the Church Age is not the Kingdom Age to come, but God's moral laws are for all time. They are how we are to live, not how we are saved, for salvation is a free gift. The moral laws we are to live by are taught in the New Testament.

If you want to look into it, here is a link you can begin with

http://www.matthewmcgee.org/2gospels.html#Intro
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
What part of my previous posts Sister Carol do i not make my self clear or, do you think im off base?

Does Not the Berean Bible Society state:

1) water baptism is not for the church today?

2) The Church actually started with Paul and his learning of the "Mystery"?

3) That the 4 Gospel [albeit] are true and relevant; there not relevant for the "body of Christ"..the "church" of today; in which Paul started with the gentiles?

3)Do not those of the BBS, state that the books[edit sp] of James, Jude, Most all of acts is not for the Church of today?

Did i misquote anything so far sister?

i will get into more about the rest after i hear about your answer...

Now im not being contentious dear Sister Carol, i want to go point by point and research all the points out one by one;

i dont want to "false accuse " anyone..lets study closely..if you will.

Edit this [add] I know that many Hyper-Dispensationalists do not think that the "communion" "the Lord's supper" is for today; im not sure what the BBS teaches on that doctrine:..[end edit]
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
PUTTING RIGHT THE ERRORS OF MID-ACTS DISPENSATIONALISM (THE Berean Bible Society )

I would like to see mid-Acts dispensationalism lose the ultra-dispensationalism tag and become the mainstream understanding of Christianity. Several false dogmas have become widespread among mid-Acts dispensationalists and an overhaul of mid-Acts understanding is required to halt its drift toward becoming a bizarre cult, worthy only of being marginalized and shunned. Here is a list of corrections that will help to put the mid-Acts ship back on course:


1. CHURCH DEFINED BY THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRIT OF PROMISE

The church, the body of Christ is solely defined by the presence of the Holy Spirit of promise in believers (Romans 8:9, Ephesians 1:13). It is the same Spirit of promise that was promised to Israel (Luke 24:49). Therefore Paul was not the first member of the church, the body of Christ (Romans 16:7). The Lord asked Paul “why persecutest thou ME?” (Acts 9:4, 22:7, 26:14) therefore Peter’s little flock were his body. Paul’s partner Barnabas was saved before he was (Acts 4:36) and was later called a Christian (Acts 11:26). Peter later saw himself and his people as Christians (1 Peter 4:16).



But Paul was the first person saved in God’s new and unprophesied dispensation of his longsuffering and grace to ignorant and unbelieving sinners (1 Timothy 1:13-16, 2 Peter 3:15).

Paul was a “me first” pattern of the great longsuffering and grace of God toward us ignorant sinners saved since, providing we repent of our ignorance and believe (Ephesians 4:18, 2 Timothy 2:25).

Paul was the apostle given the dispensation of grace to Gentile-ward (Ephesians 3:1-2).

Paul magnified his office of apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13).



[The main error that mid-Acts dispensationists make is to try and start the body of Christ with the salvation of Paul. This leads to great confusion and puts Peter and Barnabas in a different body, or church, to Paul. A dispensational change can occur within an existing body of God’s people. The new dispensation of law was introduced through Moses to an existing body of God’s people - Israel. Many of Israel did not go along with it and were cut off. The new grace dispensation was introduced through Paul to an existing body of God’s people - the church of God which began of the day of Pentecost and which was initially a Jewish sect. Many existing members were blinded to God’s new dispensation revealed through Paul. They could not let go of the former law dispensation and were broken off (Romans 11:5-7, Romans 11:17-20, Galatians 2:16-21).]




2. THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM HAS NEVER BEEN AT HAND YET

Israel’s millennial kingdom was never preached as being imminent or at hand during the Lord’s earthly ministry. Even the Son did not know that day and hour (Mark 13:32). It will not be at hand until the Lord returns in a cloud with power and great glory (Luke 21:27). Although the coming millennial kingdom was talked about by Jesus, the kingdom that John the Baptist and Jesus preached as being at hand was the kingdom that is within us (Luke 17:21) - the Holy Spirit kingdom (Romans 14:17). John would have been preaching a falsehood if he was preaching that the millennial kingdom was at hand – because it wasn’t. John preached only the truth – that Jesus was the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost (John 1:33). The spiritual kingdom of God within us is an earnest (foretaste and pledge) of our eternal inheritance (Ephesians 1:13-14) in the heavenly, eternal kingdom of God (2 Timothy 4:18). (The millennial kingdom will be earthly and temporal.)



God was not surprised by Israel’s rejection of his Holy Spirit because the present dispensation was kept secret since before the world began (Romans 16:25). Therefore the great tribulation, followed by Israel’s millennial kingdom, were also never at hand in the months and years immediately after the day of Pentecost - although it is understandable that the believers thought they were (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 2:16-20, Acts 3:19). This present dispensation had been kept secret – hidden from prophecy.



[The second main error that mid-Acts dispensationalists make is to try and convince us that John the Baptist and the fleshly Jesus Christ were preaching that Israel’s millennial kingdom was at hand. That is why the word “kingdom” has become pretty much unusable when speaking with mid-Acts people. They teach that God had planned to install Israel’s millennial kingdom sometime after the day of Pentecost, but changed his mind in reaction to Israel’s persecution of his Spirit-filled flock. Therefore they are teaching that God does not have foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:2) and had not planned the introduction of his mystery program, through Paul, since before the world began (Romans 16:25).]




3. THE CHURCH ARE PARTAKERS OF ISRAEL’S SPIRITUAL THINGS

Gentile believers today are partakers of their spiritual things; i.e. Israel’s spiritual things (Romans 15:27). We are partakers of New Covenant spiritual blessings initially promised to Israel and our head is the mediator of the New Covenant (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 12:24). The dispensation of grace is the dispensation of Israel’s spiritual things to anyone who believes Paul’s gospel. The promises were made to Abraham and his seed – which is Christ (Galatians 3:16). Cleansed Gentiles are Christ’s flesh and bone (Ephesians 5:30) and therefore inheritors of the promises made to Abraham and his seed.



Both Jews and Gentiles were unwittingly involved (Acts 4:27-28) in the Lord’s offering “one sacrifice for sins forever (Hebrews 10:12)”. So the Gentiles were also cleansed by the Lord’s sacrifice - although this wasn’t revealed until the Lord directed Peter to go to the Gentile Cornelius (Acts 10:15). Gentiles who are washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God (1 Corinthians 6:11) are partakers of God’s covenants of promise with Israel (Ephesians 2:12-13). We both (Jew and Gentile) have access by one Spirit unto the Father (Ephesians 2:18) – the Spirit of promise that was promised to Israel.



[In their vigour to keep the church from being stained by anything Jewish, many mid-Acts dispensationalists overlook the fact that we have inherited spiritual things which all stem from the Lord’s “blood of sprinkling” of the New Covenant – a covenant of promise that was made with the house of Israel (Hebrews 8:8-10).



Prior to Calvary, God could only have an earthly, fleshly church (Israel), of a single chosen bloodline and rigorously disciplined by an array of laws and ordinances. After Calvary and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, it became possible for God to have a spiritual, heavenly church for the first time. God’s spiritual, heavenly church is the only game in town today.]




4. THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE ANGELS AND THE WORLD

The saints shall judge angels and the world (1 Corinthians 6:2-3). Therefore the saints of this present age will judge the world at the Second Coming of the Lord. It is the only possible time we could. The Jewish saints shall be saved, even as the Gentiles (Acts 15:11), and they will judge the twelve tribes during the millennial kingdom (Matthew 19:28). The Gentile saints may judge the other tribes of the world. God has promised to restore his judges as at the first (Isaiah 1:26).



All of his saints have the honour of executing vengeance and punishments and binding kings and nobles with chains (Psalms 149). Surely this will be the role of the saints at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints (1 Thessalonians 3:13). Although the Lord and all his saints will be clothed with houses from heaven (2 Corinthians 5:2), they will have that ability that the Lord and his angels have always had – to appear as flesh and bone humans (Genesis 18:2; Judges 6:22, 13:16; Zechariah 1:10-11; John 20:26-27; Hebrews 13:2).



There is a close interrelationship between events on earth and events in heaven (Matthew 18:18) so judging angels and the world are likely to be closely interrelated also. Satan’s angels are the current princes of this world (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11; Romans 8:38; Ephesians 3:10, 6:12; Colossians 1:16, 2:15; Titus 3:1) so judging them is to judge the world also.



[I was taught that we are in a parenthesis of mystery, with prophecy ending at the opening bracket and resuming at the closing bracket. After being raptured to some heavenly destination (planets in outer space according to some teachers) we will play no further role on earth in the prophesied great tribulation and the millennial kingdom which follows. That is why the current batch of mid-Acts teachers make heroic efforts to prove that Paul was not speaking to us grace age saints in 1 Corinthians 6:2 but was speaking to us in 1 Corinthians 6:3. After all, angels are in heaven and that’s where we are headed.



Yes, Satan’s angels are presently in heaven yet they still manage to rule the kingdoms of the earth (Luke 4:5-7). Judging angels and the world are closely interrelated and are also closely connected with God’s prophetic program. So we must revise the dogma that we are totally disassociated from future prophesied events.]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Some meat to chew on.

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/ohair/GRACE%20WORKS%20IN%20ADOBE/BIBLE%20STUDY%20FOR%20BEREANS,%20AUGUST%20AND%20SEPTEMBER,%201936.pdf
 




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