Christian Message Boards: The Practical Beginning of the Body of Christ

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By Dr. W. Edward Bedore

The positional beginning of the Body of Christ took place in the mind of God before time began (Eph. 3:9; II Tim. 1:9). The Body of Christ itself remained a secret hidden from man until, in His own time, God initiated the Dispensation of Grace and revealed its message to the Apostle Paul. This was the practical beginning of the Church, which is Christ's Body.

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT?

In order to "rightly divide the word of Truth" (II Tim. 2:15), we must know when the Dispensation of Grace began in order to determine which part of the Bible directly applies to the present dispensation, the Body of Christ, and which pertains to Israel and God's covenant promises. Here, we will be looking at evidence from Scripture that indicates when God interrupted the prophesied Kingdom program and began the Dispensation of Grace.

PAUL'S UNIQUE CONVERSION

Saul of Tarsus, who became Paul the Apostle, was a self-righteous, hard-hearted, Christ-rejecting Pharisee when the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to him as he traveled to Damascus to arrest those who believed that Jesus was Israel's long-awaited Messiah. He had been involved in the murder of Stephen and in the persecution of the Church at Jerusalem (Acts 7:54-58). Now, with letters of authority from the High Priest, he was headed to Damascus to arrest any believers found there (Acts 22:4-5). As he came near Damascus, the Lord Jesus Christ suddenly appeared to him in a bright light and spoke to him (Acts 9:3-6; 22:6-10; 26:12-18).

The how and when of Christ's appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus is important. According to prophecy, Jesus Christ left the twelve apostles on earth as His official spokesmen, first to Israel and then to the nations (Lk. 24:45-48). He was not scheduled to return to earth until coming in power and glory to defeat anti-Christ and take over the rule of Israel and the world (Ps. 110:1-3; Matt. 24:29-31; 25:31-32 ff.). Israel's King was to stay in self-imposed exile in heaven until the appointed time (Acts 3:18-21). His appearing to Saul the blasphemer on the road to Damascus was an interruption of the prophetic program. This is where and when God first dispensed grace under a new and unprophesied program, thus marking the beginning of the Dispensation of the Grace.

ISRAEL'S CRISIS

Israel's leaders had rejected the testimony of the Holy Spirit concerning Jesus Christ and stoned Stephen when he confronted them with their sin. While Israel's leaders of old had persecuted and slain God's prophets who foretold the coming of the Messiah, these leaders were guilty of betraying and murdering the Messiah Himself when He did come, and they had failed to keep the Law as well (Acts 7:51-59).

The stoning of Stephen took place about one year after Peter's Pentecostal message (c. AD 31). Peter had charged Israel's leaders with unjustly putting Jesus Christ to death and called on the people of Israel to "repent and be baptized… for the remission of sins" in order to be saved "from this untoward (crooked) generation" (see Acts 2:12-40). The meaning was clear. Those who did not repent of Israel's national sin of murdering the Messiah would be held personally responsible for the crime. They would be accountable before God for His death just as if they were there that day clamoring for Him to be crucified, agreeing that His blood would be on their shoulders (Matt. 22:25). To follow the leaders of the nation would be to follow them into perdition.

The leaders of Israel had rejected God's Son during His earthly ministry to the nation and rejected the testimony of the Holy Spirit through His apostles after His ascension into heaven. When Stephen confronted them with their sin, they refused to listen (Acts 7:57) proving that, just as he had said, they were also guilty of resisting the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51). They committed the unpardonable sin that the Lord Jesus had warned the nation against (Matt. 12:31-32; Mk. 3:28-29; Lk. 12:8-10). By holding their clothes and consenting to his death, Paul joined the council in killing Stephen (Acts 6:12; 7:54,58; 8:1), thus identifying himself with their sin of murdering the Messiah. His conduct following Stephen's death shows that he joined them not just in principle but also in attitude, thought and deed (Acts 8:3-4; 9:1-2).

Was there room for repentance? Could Paul have turned to the Lord and been forgiven of his sin? Yes, even though Paul was under the same condemnation as the leaders of Israel because he had identified himself with them, he still had the opportunity to find forgiveness by confessing Israel's national sin of not keeping the Law of Moses (resisting the Father), murdering the Just One (resisting the Son), and renouncing the miracles and preaching of God's Spirit-filled messengers as untrue (resisting the Holy Spirit) that Stephen had charged her leaders with (Acts 7:51-53; cf. Acts 5:27-33). He had an opportunity, but chose to trust in his self-righteousness.

Israel's leaders had been presented with overwhelming evidence that Jesus Christ was alive and was both Lord and Christ. With the stoning of Stephen, they sealed their fate. But Paul, who did not have the kind of first-hand knowledge of Christ's earthly ministry that those leaders did, was following them in ignorance (I Tim. 1:12-13). He could have known, and should have known, but chose to follow the way of unbelief.

When Stephen said he saw a vision of the glory of God and Jesus Christ standing at His right hand is when the council members took their fury out on him. They knew that judgment was about to fall on the nation, but refused to admit it. They vainly thought that if they could do away with the messenger they would somehow escape the judgment he proclaimed. The hatred that led to the crucifixion of Christ was based on the response of unbelief. They claimed that they were doing God's will. Paul, in his misplaced zeal for the Law, joined them in persecuting the believers even to the point of leading the effort to destroy them (Gal. 1:13-14; Phil. 3:4-6).

The members of the council responded to Stephen's charge against them by "gnashing at him with their teeth" because of his vision of Jesus "standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7:54-55). Then "they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord" (Acts 7:54-57). Rejecting the truth, they carried him out and stoned him to death. Israel's persistence in unbelief had brought the world's rebellion against God to a head and His chosen nation was now leading it. On the prophetic clock, it was time to purge Israel and the world of unbelief through the events of the Tribulation. The time of Jacob's trouble was at hand (Jer. 30:7).

Israel was at a crisis point, and Paul was leading the rebellion against God by becoming its Field Marshal in the persecution of His saints. Unrepentant and on his way to Damascus to imprison believers, Paul was not in a position to be saved under the prophesied Kingdom program. But God, who is rich in mercy, sent His Son to apprehend Paul, His foremost enemy, through grace and initiate a new program through which salvation would be offered directly to all the nations. He took Paul as a prisoner of war, changed his heart, and sent him out as the Apostle to the Gentiles with a message of grace. Under the Kingdom program, the Gentiles would receive God's blessings through Israel. But now the Gentiles would receive God's blessings apart from Israel.

THE DISPENSING OF GOD'S GRACE

Did the Dispensation of Grace begin when Jesus Christ interrupted the prophecy program by leaving heaven to appear to Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-9ff.), or several years later? To answer this, we will look at the departures from the Kingdom program that took place, Paul's testimony about his commission as an Apostle, and how the transition from the prophesied Kingdom program into the mystery program (Grace) took place.

1. Paul's salvation was not in line with the Kingdom message. We believe that the following list shows that God initiated a new dispensational order at the time of his conversion.

a. Paul was actively persecuting believers (Acts 9:1-2). Under prophecy, those of Israel who scattered the flock were under condemnation (Jer. 23:1-3; Ezek. 34:1-10; cf. Matt. 23).

b. Jesus Christ's appearance to Paul was not in accord with the prophetic message of the Kingdom, which shows Him waiting in heaven until His return to earth in power and glory, when "every eye shall see Him" (Hos. 5:15; Acts 3:19-21; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:29-30; John 16:7-10; cf. Acts 9:17).

c. The prophesied appearing of Jesus Christ will mark Israel's turning back to the Lord and the people's return to the Promised Land, while His appearance to Paul initiated God's setting aside of Israel in unbelief (Zech. 12:10,14; cf. Acts 13:46; 18:6; 28:28).

d. That Paul was sent specifically to the Gentiles at that time, even though Israel was not yet converted (Acts 9:15; 22:21; 26:17). Prophetically, Gentile salvation was to come through believing Israel's rise (Isa. 60:1-4; Zech. 8:20-23). In contrast, the fall of Israel brought salvation to the Gentiles through the mystery of Grace (Rom. 11:11,15; 16:25-27; Eph. 3:1-9).

e. That, following Paul's conversion, the persecution of the Church in all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria subsided (Acts 9:31). Under the Kingdom program, persecution of believers, especially in Jerusalem, was to steadily increase until Jesus Christ's return to deliver Israel from her enemies (Matt. 24:3-31; Isa. 59:19-21; Jer. 30:3-9).

f. That it was necessary to provide relief aid to the saints in Judea (Acts 11:27-30). Believing that it was imminent, the Kingdom believers had sold their property and pooled their resources (Acts 2:44-45) in order to get through the Tribulation that will precede Christ's return to establish His Kingdom on earth. During the Tribulation, believers will not be able to buy or sell on the open market (Rev. 13:16-17). But, by the time the collection had been taken, it had been fifteen years since Peter had first offered the Kingdom to Israel by announcing that the "the great and notable Day of the Lord" was at hand (Acts 2:14-21ff). What happened? The Tribulation did not come because the Lord had interrupted the prophetic Kingdom program when He appeared to Paul. Now, after many years, their resources were gone and a famine was coming. If the prophetic timetable had not been delayed, the Tribulation would have already taken place and Jesus Christ's Kingdom established on earth by this time.

The foregoing list of things that took place following Paul's conversion provides compelling evidence that there was a major departure from the prophecy program at that time. God dispensed grace instead of wrath. This unprophesied dispensing of grace initiated a new Church, the Body of Christ, which over the next several years would grow even as the existing Kingdom Church would wither and finally die out.

A MAJOR DISPENSATIONAL CHANGE

After Paul's conversion, Peter was sent to Caesarea by the Lord to share the gospel with Cornelius, a Roman centurion. This event confirms that a major program change was taking place. The events of Acts chapter ten are generally thought of as simply the opening of the door of salvation to the Gentiles and that God did this because Peter still didn't understand that the gospel was to go to all nations. This is true, but not for the reason generally assumed. We should note here that what took place was not according to the Kingdom Gospel that Peter and the eleven had been commissioned under. The Apostles knew that the Gospel was to go to all the world, but not in the manner it did because what took place was outside of the realm of prophecy.

Peter and the eleven were charged with making disciples of all nations (see Matt. 28:18-20; Mk. 16:15-16). The Bible is clear that the Gentiles were included in the Kingdom program (Isa. 49:5-6). It is equally clear that in the Kingdom the Gentiles will be under the spiritual and legal authority of Israel (Isa. 42:5-6; 49:22-23; 60:2-3; 61:5-6; 62:1-2; Zech. 8:20-23). That the Lord told Peter to eat unclean animals and to eat with uncircumcised Gentiles was the same as telling him that the Kingdom Commission he was laboring under was being rescinded. During the Millennial Kingdom, the terms of the Mosaic Law, with some modification, will be in effect. This includes the civil statutes, the religious rituals and the moral code contained in the Ten Commandments. Included will be circumcision and the prohibition of eating unclean animals.

It is assumed that because the Apostle Paul says that the believer is "not under the Law, but under Grace" (Rom. 6:14) that the Law has been completely abolished, but this is not true. It is true that the "handwriting of ordinances" contained in the Law have been taken out of our way in the Dispensation of Grace, but it is equally true that they will be in force during the Millennial Kingdom. The difference between the Dispensation of the Law (from Moses to Christ) and the Dispensation of Righteousness (the Millennial Kingdom era) is that Israel will be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and supernaturally enabled to keep the Law in the Kingdom (see Jer. 31:31-323; Ezek. 11:18-20; 36:24-28).

Under the Mosaic administration, the offerings looked forward to the cross. With Jesus Christ having fulfilled the Law and its types, in the Kingdom these offerings will be memorial in nature, looking back to the cross in honor of what took place there. The dietary laws will be enforced as they are part of the laws and statutes given to Israel by God (Ezek. 44:24). Before the Lord sent Peter to Cornelius, He repealed the dietary ban of the Law on eating the meat from certain animals (Acts 10:9-16). This was so difficult for Peter to accept that the Lord had to show him the vision of the clean and unclean animals three times to make it clear to him that now the meat of all animals was to be considered as clean.

That Cornelius and those with him were uncircumcised when Peter went and ate with them in Caesarea was another breech in the Kingdom program (Ezek. 44:9). Peter knew full well that under his commission he was not allowed "to keep company, or come unto one of another nation" (Acts 10:28a). His acknowledgment that he could no longer "call any man common or unclean" (Acts 10:28b) was not intended to imply that he was beginning to understand the scope of his God-given commission. Instead it was a statement to the fact that he recognized that God was doing something new and highly unusual. After receiving the vision of the clean and unclean animals and being instructed to eat of both, Peter wondered what the vision meant (Acts 10:17a). The answer was given almost immediately as men sent by Cornelius showed up at his door. (Acts 10:17b) and the Holy Spirit told him to go with them (Acts 10:18-23). There is nothing in the prophetic Kingdom program that places Gentiles on an equal footing with the seed of Abraham. In a very real way, Gentile blessings and acceptance into the Kingdom are based on them turning to the God of Israel and how they treat His chosen people (Gen. 12:1-3; Matt. 25:31-36). Prophetically, this is true on both the personal and national levels.

In obedience, Peter went to Caesarea and preached the gospel to Cornelius, a God-fearing Gentile, and those with him (Acts 10:24-43). A strange thing happened during Peter's message. The Holy Spirit fell on these Gentiles, astonishing the Jews that had come with Peter (Acts 10:44-45). Peter then had them baptized and stayed with them for a time before returning to Jerusalem (Acts 10:46-48).

An important fact is that the Holy Spirit came upon these Gentile believers before Peter finished his message (Acts 10:44). It is significant that, up to this point, Peter had given a brief history of Jesus Christ's earthly ministry and preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to them. When he said that "through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins", the Lord interrupted him by sending the Holy Spirit "on all them which heard the Word" (Acts 10:43-44). While he undoubtedly had a full Kingdom message in mind, he did not get to the part about repentance and baptism for the remission of sins as he had on Pentecost (cf. Acts 2:37-40).

Up to this point, this message was compatible with Peter's Kingdom gospel and the Grace gospel preached by Paul (I Cor. 15:3-4). We believe that at this point God intervened by saving Cornelius and those with him who believed and placed them into the Church, which is Christ's Body. Because the Kingdom program was already being superseded by the Dispensation of Grace, God's purpose in saving these Gentiles was to prepare Peter and the other Kingdom leaders to accept both Paul and his message as being from the Lord. When confronted by those in Jerusalem because he had gone "into men uncircumcised and didst eat with them" (Acts 11:1-3), he explained why he did what he did by telling how God had specifically sent him there and what took place, saying "what was I, that I should withstand God" (Acts 10:17). We know that Peter only came to an understanding of "why" this took place when he later learned about the purpose of the Dispensation of Grace from Paul (Gal. 2:1-10; cf. II Pet. 2:15-16). The timing and the manner in which Peter was sent to Cornelius provides strong proof that the Dispensation of Grace began with Paul's conversion and that the fading away of Israel had already begun. A major dispensational change had to have taken place for Peter to have been sent to Cornelius in the manner and at the time that he was.

THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL

When a controversy over circumcision in the Gentile churches arose in Antioch, Paul, Barnabas, and other leaders went to Jerusalem for a hearing before the apostles and elders of the church there (Acts 15:1-2). After much disputing, Peter took the floor and reminded them how God had used him to bring salvation to the Gentiles (Acts 15:3-11). These leaders then listened to what Paul and Barnabas had to say about how the Lord was using them among the Gentiles (Acts 15:12). James then stood up and defended their ministry to the Gentiles, insisting they not be put under the Law of Moses (Acts 15:13-21).

Our point here is that in referring back to the events in Acts chapter ten to defend Paul's ministry, Peter knew something new took place when the Lord sent him to Cornelius and that it related to Paul's message and ministry to the Gentiles. James, the apostles, the elders, and the whole church agreed and sent letters of acknowledgment to the believing Gentiles in Antioch and the regions of Syria and Cilicia asking only that they "abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication" (Acts 15:22-29).

That they specifically sent letters to the Gentile believers in the regions of Syria and Cilicia confirms that Paul's early ministry was the same then as it was at this time (Acts 15:23; cf. Gal. 1:18-21; Acts 9:26-30; Tarsus is in Cilicia).

PAUL'S OWN TESTIMONY

When giving his testimony, Paul often connected his salvation experience to his call into the ministry and the message he preached. This shows that Paul received the call to his ministry as the Apostle to the Gentiles at the time of his conversion and began receiving special revelation of the doctrines of grace shortly thereafter.

Acts 21:37-22:22: Here Paul has been rescued from the Jews who were trying to kill him because he was falsely accused of bringing a Gentile into the Temple. When the Roman commander allowed him to speak, he began by recounting how he persecuted the Church and was saved by the Lord Jesus Christ while on his way to Damascus. As instructed by the Lord, he went on to Damascus and met Ananias, who gave him a message from the Lord. In this account, Paul adds some details not found in Acts nine. In chapter nine, we find the Lord Jesus telling Ananias through a vision that Paul was "a chosen vessel" who was to bear His name "before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" and that he would suffer for His "name's sake" (Acts 9:15-16). But it does not tell us that Ananias told Paul this. However, in Acts twenty-two, Paul specifically tells us that Ananias did relay a message from the Lord to him. "And he (Ananias) said, the God of our fathers hath chosen thee (Saul), that thou shouldest know His will and see that Just One and shouldest hear the voice of His mouth. For thou shalt be His witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard" (Acts 22:14-15).

In chapter nine, Paul's commission is stated as being to "the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel", which is the opposite order of the Kingdom commission given to Peter and the eleven (see Acts 1:6-9). In his testimony, Paul simply says that he was sent to be "a witness unto all men" of what he had already seen and heard (Acts 22:15). That it is condensed to "all men" in this account infers that his commission made no distinction between the Jews and Gentiles. This could never be said of the Kingdom commission, which emphasizes Israel's covenant position as God's chosen people. The Kingdom message rests on the fact that God would send the Messiah to deliver Israel from her Gentile enemies and forgive her of her iniquity (Jer. 23:1-6; 31:31-34; etc.).

Paul then tells his hearers about what took place when he returned to Jerusalem three years after his conversion (cf. Gal. 1:17-18). He went into the temple to pray, went into a trance, and had a vision of the Lord who said to him, "make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning Me" (Acts 22:17-18). Paul protested, thinking that hearing about how God had changed him from a "persecutor" into a "proclaimer" of Christ would cause the Jews to consider what he had to say. The Lord's response was to command Paul to leave Jerusalem as He was sending him to the Gentiles (Acts 22:19-21). When Paul mentioned the Gentiles, the Jews began calling for his death and the Roman soldiers took him into their barracks for safety (Acts 22:22-24).

Our point here is that Paul was defending his God-given ministry to the Gentiles by showing its relationship to what the Lord told him in Damascus through Ananias and three years later in the Temple at Jerusalem. Obviously, he intended that his audience understand his calling into the ministry by the Lord in the same context as the ministry that he was involved in at the time he was speaking to them. In other words, Paul was saying that his present work among the Gentiles was directly related to him having been sent as a witness to "all men" at the time of his conversion, and that the Lord re-asserted this to him the first time he returned to Jerusalem three years after his conversion.

Acts 26:1-32: In this passage we find Paul being held in Caesarea where the commander of the Roman garrison had sent him because of a plot against his life (Acts 23:12-35). He was in prison over two years (Acts 24:27).

Eventually Paul had an opportunity to give his testimony before King Agrippa II, a great-grandson of Herod the Great (Acts 25:1-26:32). First, he reviewed his past life as a Pharisee (Acts 26:2-5), then defended himself by stating that what he was being charged with was in line with God's promise to Israel concerning the resurrection of the dead (Acts 26:6-8). He used this same defense before the council in Jerusalem and before Felix (Acts 23:6-10; 24:10-21). The charges brought against Paul by the Jews evidently concerned his claim that Jesus, who had been put to death, was alive (Acts 25:18,19). Paul was preaching the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins for both Jews and Gentiles and showing that the Jesus he preached was the same Jesus who is the Messiah of Israel (cf. Acts 26:21-23).

He was not saying that he was preaching the exact same message as Peter and the eleven, but that the foundation of his message was foundational to the Kingdom message as well. All of God's redemptive purposes are dependent on the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ and the fact of His death, burial and resurrection. Apart from Christ and His "love work" of the cross there is no good news for man. Jesus Christ as Redeemer and the promise of a physical resurrection are essential to the hope of believers of every dispensation. This is true whether or not they had precise revelation as we do in the present Dispensation of Grace or if it was still veiled as in the types and shadow of the Law as it was in the time of the Old Testament. Peter and Paul preached about the same Jesus Christ but as representatives of different dispensations. Thus, there were differences in the details of their respective messages.

Paul then told how, in misplaced zeal, he had been engaged in persecuting believers (Acts 26:9-12; cf. Gal. 1:13-14; Phil. 3:4-6) when the Lord Jesus Himself appeared to him on the road to Damascus (Acts 26:12-15; cf. 9:1-5). Here he adds some information about his conversation with the Lord at that time that is not found in the other accounts of this history changing event.

In Acts nine and twenty-two, it is simply stated that the Lord told Paul to "arise, and go into the city (Damascus), and it shall be told thee what thou must do" (Acts 9:6; 22:10). But here, in his testimony before Agrippa, Paul gives us a fuller account of what Jesus said to him that day. "But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear (reveal) unto thee; delivering thee from the people (Israel), and from the Gentiles unto whom now I send thee, to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they might receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in Me" (Acts 26:16-18). We learn several important things from this account.

First, Jesus Christ appeared to Paul for the express purpose of making him a minister (v. 16a). As Paul's ministry was that of the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 11:13), it seems evident that this is where he received his calling to that office (Acts 9:15; cf. Rom. 1:1; I Cor. 1:1; Gal. 1:1,15-16; II Tim. 1:10-11).

Second, the Lord appeared to Paul that he might be an eyewitness to the fact of His resurrection (v. 16b; cf. I Cor. 15:1-8). Paul not only saw the risen Christ but, like the twelve, he also received his commission as an Apostle directly from Him (Gal. 1:11-12; Tit. 1:3; cf. Lk. 6:12-16; cf. Matt. 10:1-2; Lk. 9:1-2).

Third, the Lord did not reveal everything He had for Paul all at one time but would progressively reveal the details of the message that He sent Paul to proclaim (v.16c).

Fourth, the Lord promised to deliver Paul from those who sought to harm him, both of the Jews and of the Gentiles (v.17a). Many instances of this being fulfilled are found in the Scriptures (II Tim. 3:11; cf. Acts 13:44-52; 14:1-20; etc.).

Fifth, the Lord commissioned Paul to go to the Gentiles at that time (v. 17b; cf. Acts 9:15; 22:12-15).

Sixth, Paul's mission was to offer salvation to the Gentiles through faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ (v. 18).

Seventh, that Paul obeyed this vision and took his message to the Jews and the Gentiles (vs. 19-20).

Eighth, that it was "for these causes", that is for preaching the message he received that day on the road to Damascus to Jew and Gentile alike, that the Jews had tried to kill him (v.21; cf Acts 21:27-28).

We recognize the fact that there is some difficulty in reconciling the order of events given in verse 20 with the record of Paul's activities that are found earlier in Acts and in his epistles. However, that does not change what is clearly stated in verses 12-18. Paul was commissioned to go to the Gentiles right there on the road to Damascus. Note that the message he preached in Damascus he also preached to the Jews and the Gentiles.

I Corinthians 15:9-10: In chapter fifteen of I Corinthians, the Apostle Paul forcefully presents the importance of Christ's resurrection to the Gospel of the Grace of God. First, he reminds the Corinthians that they were saved and have their standing before God through the Gospel that he preached to them (I Cor. 15:1-2). His concern was that they had been influenced by those who denied that Christ was raised from the dead and that believers would be resurrected. He points out that the gospel that they had believed and been saved through was based on the facts of Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (I Cor. 15:3-4). His point is that if they were saved through faith that Christ was raised from the dead, but it wasn't true, their faith in Christ was pointless, or "in vain" (I Cor. 15:2,12,18). The believer's assurance only comes from the fact that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead (I Cor. 15:19-22ff.).

Second, Paul explains that the twelve Kingdom Apostles were eyewitnesses to the fact of Christ's resurrection, as were more than five hundred other believers, including James, the Lord's half-brother (I Cor. 15:5-7). And last, Paul claims that he himself also saw the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ (I Cor. 15:8-10). Even though Paul was not qualified in any way to be an apostle, the Lord graciously appeared to him on the road to Damascus and commissioned him as the Apostle of Grace (I Cor. 15:10; cf. Gal. 2:9; Acts 9:15-17; 22:11-15; 26:14-18). The grace which was bestowed upon Paul is shown to be directly tied to his having personally seen the risen Christ. Note the statements from the Acts record; "Jesus that appeared unto thee" (Acts 9:17); "that thou shouldest know His will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of His mouth. For thou shalt be His witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard" (Acts 22:14-15); "for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness..." (Acts 26:16ff.).

Galatians 1:6-2:10: In his letter to the churches of Galatia, Paul defended his grace apostleship and message against that of the Judaizers, who had come in preaching a corrupted gospel that mixed Law with Grace. He makes it clear that his message was not the same as the message committed to the Apostle Peter.

Establishing the fact that his apostleship was not conferred on him by any man or group of men, but by Jesus Christ Himself, whose authority comes through the Father (Gal. 1:1), Paul expressed his dismay that the saints in Galatia were so quickly turning away from the Gospel of Grace to a perverted message that was not good news at all (Gal. 1:6-7). He told them that anybody who came to them with a message that was different than the one he had preached to them should be considered as one who is under condemnation (Acts 1:8-9). His motivation was not to please men but to serve the Lord Jesus Christ (Gal. 1:10).

Paul then states that he received his message directly from the risen Christ as well (Gal. 1:11-12; cf. v. 1:1). That he specifically says that he received it "by the revelation of Jesus Christ" tells us that his message was not already known by men but directly revealed to him by the Lord Jesus. It is on this important point that the rest of the epistle is based.

Paul goes on to remind the Galatians of his former conduct as a zealous Jew (Gal. 1:13-14). He had tried to destroy the Church, but in God's time He had called him by His grace for the purpose of revealing his Son in him that he might preach Christ among the Gentiles (Gal. 1:15-16a). After being called, Paul did not consult any man about the message he would preach and did not go immediately to Jerusalem, which was the seat of the apostles' authority. Instead he went to Arabia and then returned to Damascus (Gal. 1:16b-17). It was not until three years after his conversion that he went to Jerusalem to meet with Peter (Gal. 1:18). Some of the details of this visit are found in Acts 22:17-21. Paul met with Peter and James at this time (Gal. 1:19) and then went to the regions of Syria and Cilicia, remaining unknown to the churches that were in Judea (Gal. 1:19-22).

Paul qualified everything he was writing with the statement "Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not" (Gal. 1:20-22). He nailed down the fact that he received his message from the Lord Himself and was not preaching the Kingdom Gospel that Peter and the other apostles preached. That the churches in Judea only heard that this former persecutor was now preaching the faith that he attempted to destroy (Acts 1:23-24) does not mean that he was preaching the Kingdom Gospel, but that he was preaching Christ. Of course, they assumed that he was preaching Christ according to prophecy because that was the only message that they knew anything about at that time. Note that Paul does not give us any other information to go along with this series of events other than that the Gospel he preached was given to him by the Lord. What he is defending is this special revelation and the fact that he received it before he ever met with any of the Kingdom apostles.

Fourteen years after his conversion, Paul went a second time to Jerusalem where he met privately with Peter, James, and John, the chief leaders in the Church there. We should note here that this was not the conference of Acts fifteen which was held during Paul's third trip to Jerusalem and was a public meeting with all the apostles and elders rather than a private one (Acts 15:1-6ff.). Also, if the Acts fifteen meeting had taken place before Paul wrote this letter to the Galatians, he would have referred to the official ruling by the Jerusalem council by all the apostles and elders concerning circumcision (Acts 15:23-24). During this visit, Paul explained the Gospel message that he was already preaching to these men so they would not undermine it because of a lack of understanding (Gal. 2:1-2). That he refused to have Titus circumcised and strongly withstood the false teachers (Gal. 2:3-4) at this time tells us that the Grace Gospel was already being proclaimed and that the Body of Christ was already in existence. Paul's refusal to allow the demands of the Law to be imposed on Gentile believers was to make sure that "the truth of the Gospel might continue" (Gal. 2:5). He was defending his Christ-revealed message of Grace to keep it from being corrupted by mixing it with the Law. We do not know when Titus became a believer, but we know that it was before the time of this meeting, which was sometime before Paul's first apostolic missionary journey (Acts 12:25-13:3).

Paul made it clear that James, Peter and John "added nothing" to his knowledge, that is they did not teach him anything concerning the Good News about Jesus Christ (Gal. 2:6). Instead, the opposite was true. They learned from him about how God had commissioned him with the Gospel of the Gentiles (the uncircumcision) just as Peter was with the Gospel of the Jews (the circumcision) (Gal. 2:6-8). Recognizing that the Gospel of Grace was particularly given to Paul, Peter, James and John agreed to limit their ministry to preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews while Paul was to go to the Gentiles with the Gospel of Grace (Gal. 2:9-10).

The message that these men endorsed was the ministry and message the Lord had charged Paul with at the time of his conversion, and by then he had already been laboring under it for fourteen years. There is no doubt that in this passage of Scripture that Paul is defending his God-given message of Grace and Apostolic authority. It is important to note that he does not mention having received another commission or message between Galatians 1:16 and 2:1. His authority to rebuke Peter to his face (Gal. 2:11-14) and proclaim justification apart from the Law is found in Galatians 1:11-16.

Philippians 3:1-11: Paul warned the saints at Philippi against the Judaizers who would mingle Law and Grace by imposing the rite of circumcision on them if given a chance. He tells them to beware of these evil workers and points out that those who have trusted Christ alone and are not trusting in the works of the flesh are the true circumcision (Phil. 3:1-3; cf. Col. 2:13-14). If anyone ever thought they were right with God because of the fleshly works of the Law, it was Paul. He was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, a zealous Pharisee who persecuted the Church (Phil. 3:4-6). He declared that his self-righteousness based on his ability to keep the Law of Moses simply was insufficient and so he rejected it all as rubbish and turned to Christ alone that he might gain the righteousness of God though faith (Phil. 3:7-9; cf. II Cor. 5:21). The result being to personally know Christ and experience His resurrection power in his life as he was being conformed into Christ-likeness through his new identity with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Phil. 3:10-11; cf. Rom. 6:1-11).

As we have seen, Paul makes it clear that he was saved and commissioned when Jesus Christ appeared on the road to Damascus. Here he tells us that he turned from every thing that he had thought made him in some way acceptable to God in favor of faith alone in Christ alone that he might be found righteous in God's sight. This obviously took place when the Lord Jesus appeared to him while he was involved in persecuting the Kingdom believers as he mistakenly thought that his zeal in doing so commended him to God (Phil. 3:6a).

If Paul had been saved into the Kingdom Church and then later transferred into the Body of Christ, he would not have made the claim that he renounced all of the things that we find listed in this passage. Under the Kingdom program, there is a distinction between the Jews who are of "the commonwealth of Israel" and therefore "children of the Covenants of Promise", and the Gentiles, who are not (cf. Eph. 2:11-12). As we have noted earlier, in the Kingdom circumcision will be required, and the Law, with some revisions, will be kept by believing Israel. It is true that in the Kingdom program salvation is still essentially through faith in Christ, but the Jews will have a place of authority over the Gentiles because of their covenant relationship with God. So, along with circumcision, Sabbath keeping, water baptism and many other elements of the Law will be kept to demonstrate the reality of their faith in Christ. None of this is true of the Dispensation of Grace. Paul's Hebrew identity in itself would not make him acceptable to God, but he could not renounce it as worthless under the terms of the Kingdom program. Again we see that Paul's message of Grace is directly related to the time of his conversion on the road to Damascus.

I Timothy 1:8-17: In this letter to Timothy, Paul gave this young pastor instructions and encouragement to stand strong in the faith. He explained that the proper use of the Law today is to convict the ungodly of sin (I Tim. 1:8-10) in accord with the Gospel message that had been committed to his trust (I Tim. 1:11). He then voiced his thankfulness to the Lord Jesus Christ, who enabled him to do the ministry He had called him to (I Tim. 1:12). Before being placed into the Gospel ministry, Paul says he had been "a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious" man, but through the "exceeding abundant" grace of the Lord he had obtained mercy (I Tim. 1:13-14). As we have already seen, this change in Paul's life took place at the time the Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus.

Paul emphasizes what he says next by preceding it with the statement, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation" (I Tim 1:15a). This tells us that what follows is significant and we should pay close attention to it. First, we read that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" (I Tim. 1:15b). The incarnation of the Son of God was for the purpose of reconciling lost humanity to God. This is an inter-dispensational truth that we must always keep in mind as we study our Bibles and seek God's will for our lives.

Second, we read that Paul considered himself to be "chief", or the foremost, of sinners (I Tim. 1:15c.). Of course, he wasn't the first sinner, because that distinction belongs to Adam (Rom. 5:12; I Cor. 15:21-22) and there were many generations of sinful men and women that came and went between the time of Adam and the time of Paul. So what did Paul mean when he said that he was the "chief" sinner? I believe that the next verse explains it. "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting" (I Tim. 1:16).

Paul is simply stating here that the reason God showed him mercy in saving him was for the express purpose of using him to demonstrate His patience by using Paul as the prototype, or pattern, of those who from that time on would believe on Christ and receive eternal life (cf. II Pet. 3:15). The patience demonstrated is that, instead of pouring out His wrath on a God-rejecting world in the Tribulation, the Lord interrupted the prophetic program by graciously showing mercy to His foremost persecutor and saving him in Gentile territory apart from the requirements of the Kingdom Gospel. Even though he wrote this letter over thirty years after his conversion, Paul was compelled to give praise to his Savior when he wrote about what He had done on his, and our, behalf. "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen" (I Tim. 1:17).

II Timothy 1:6-12: In his second letter to Timothy, Paul reminds him that God has not given believers "the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind" (II Tim. 1:6-7) and that because of this he had no reason to be "ashamed of the testimony" of Jesus Christ or of Paul, the Lord's "prisoner" (II Tim. 1:8). Instead of being silenced by those who reject the Grace Gospel and the distinctive nature of Paul's apostolic ministry and message, Timothy was admonished to be willing to suffer for the Gospel, trusting in the power of God to see him through. This is God's will for believers today just as it was for Timothy when Paul penned this letter almost two thousand years ago.

Paul then goes on to remind Timothy that when we become saved we are also called to holiness according to God's own purpose of grace. Although this was God's plan even before the time of Creation, it has only now been revealed through "the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel" (II Tim. 1:9-10). We believe that the "appearance" of Christ referred to here is his appearance to Paul when he was saved on the road to Damascus and "appointed a preacher and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles" (II Tim. 1:11; cf. Acts 9:15-17; 22:14-15; 26:16-18; I Cor. 15:8-10; I Tim. 2:5-7). Again we find Paul linking his Christ-given ministry and message directly to the Lord Jesus' appearance to him on the road to Damascus.

CONCLUSION

Because there is a clear break in the prophetic Kingdom program in the events of Acts chapters nine and ten, and the Apostle Paul consistently refers to the time of his conversion on the road to Damascus in the same context as his apostolic ministry and message of grace, we believe that the Dispensation of Grace began with Paul's conversion and that the Church, which is Christ's Body, began at the same time. Paul, being both a Roman citizen and a Jew was representative of the nature of the Body of Christ in which Jew and Gentile are seen as one body or "one new man" in their identity with Christ (see Eph. 2:14-16; cf. Gal. 3:27-28; Col. 3:11).

If it is important that we know when the Dispensation of Grace began, and we believe that it is, then there should be strong Scriptural indicators that direct us to that point in time. We believe that we have shown from the Bible that these indicators do exist and they point us to the record of the Apostle Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus as the benchmark that identifies the beginning of the Dispensation of Grace. The testimony of the inspired Word of God, both in the book of Acts and in Paul's letters, tells us that Jesus Christ's appearance to Paul at that crucial time in Israel's history is the turning point that marks both Israel's fall and the birth of the Church which is His Body.

Questions or comments for Dr. Bedore should be addressed to him directly at: Berean Bible Institute, P.O. Box 587, Slinger, WI 53086, or by e-mail at: bbi@bereanbibleinstitute.org. This article is an abbreviated version of a longer article that you can have upon request.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

When Did The Church Begin?

Introduction

Reformed/Covenant Theology teaches (with some variation in details) that the Church is made up of the elect of all ages, and therefore the Church must have begun with the first person who was saved. This is the common view, although some begin the church with the nation Israel. In either case, Reformed men are unanimous in teaching that the Church was present in the Old Testament period. This is illustrated by the headings found at the top of The Thompson Chain Reference Bible in the book of Isaiah: "God's mercy to the Church" "God avengeth His church" "His great mercies to the Church" "The church comforted" "The restoration of the Church" "The church exhorted" "God will comfort His church" "The prophet's zeal for the church" "Confession and complaint of the church" etc.

Reformed/Covenant men stress that throughout all history there is but one people of God, and that these saved people comprise the Church.

Dispensationalists teach that the Church is a unique body of believers that began on the day of Pentecost and will be removed from earth on the day that Christ comes for His own (the rapture). It is made up of both Jews and Gentiles united together into one body and enjoying equal status in the body of Christ (Eph. 3:5-6). This is the “one new man” of Ephesians 2:15 and the “one fold” of John 10:16.

Others hold to differing positions as to when the Church began. Some Baptist groups believe that the Church began with John the Baptist or at some time during the Lord’s earthly ministry. Others begin the Church years after Pentecost (some in Acts 13 and others in Acts 28).

The answer to the question of when the Church began is important and has many theological ramifications. It is not a difficult question to answer. The Scriptures pinpoint the beginning of the Church in a very simple and clear way, as we shall now seek to demonstrate.

The Key Argument from Scripture

Spirit Baptism

The key passage on Spirit baptism is found in 1 Corinthians 12:13—“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” The “one body” spoken of in this verse refers to the Church (see 1 Cor. 12:27-28; Eph. 1:22-23; 5:30-32; Col. 1:18), and Christ is the Head of this body. Spirit baptism is defined in 1 Corinthians 12:13 as that work of God whereby believers are baptized (immersed, placed) into Christ’s body, the Church. How then does a believer become a member of the body of Christ? It is by Spirit baptism.

The key to when the Church began is this: If we can determine when Spirit baptism first began, then we will know when the church began. When did God first baptize believers into His body? When were believers first placed into the body of Christ? To answer this is to determine the day on which the church began.

Spirit baptism was first predicted by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11 (and in the parallel passages: Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33):

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (Spirit), and with fire” (Matt. 3:11).

John’s baptism was a water baptism (“I baptize you with water”); Christ’s baptism would be a spiritual baptism (“He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit”). The “fire baptism” is for the unsaved and this is yet future (see Matthew 3:12). Notice the phrase, “He shall baptize you with (Greek-en) the Holy Spirit.” The verb “shall baptize” is in the future tense, indicating that Spirit baptism had not yet taken place when John the Baptist spoke these words. John was predicting that it would happen in the future, but he did not predict exactly when it would happen. Notice also that Christ is the Baptizer. He is the One who would place believers into the body of Christ. He is the One who would build His church. Christ is also the Baptizer in 1 Corinthians 12:13, as will be shown later.

In Matthew 16:18 the Lord Jesus said, “I will build My Church.” The future tense of the verb indicates that the building of the Church had not yet begun when Jesus said these words. He did not say, “I have built My Church.” He did not say, “I am building My Church.” No, the building project had not yet begun and thus the Church was yet future. At the time Jesus spoke the words of Matthew 16:18 the Church had not yet begun.

Today Christ is building His church. He is adding to the church daily such as should be saved (Acts 2:47). But the question is, when did this building program first begin?

In Acts 1:5 the Lord Jesus predicted that Spirit baptism was still future:

“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence” (Acts 1:5).

According to our Lord’s prediction, Spirit baptism had not yet taken place yet, though it would soon take place. No one had yet been immersed into the body of Christ. Thus, the Church could not have begun prior to Acts 1:5. When Jesus spoke the words of Acts 1:5 His death and His resurrection had already taken place, and yet Spirit baptism had not yet taken place and the church had not yet been formed. But the announcement of Acts 1:5 was very significant because Jesus said that Spirit baptism would take place “not many days hence” (not many days from now). This means that it would happen soon, in a matter of days. Indeed, as we shall learn, it happened just ten days later on the day of Pentecost.

The Day of Pentecost and the unique events that took place on that day are described in Acts chapter 2. In this chapter Spirit baptism is not specifically mentioned. It is not until Acts chapter 11 that we are specifically told that Spirit baptism took place on the day of Pentecost: “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning [on the Day of Pentecost]. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 11:15-16). Based on the clear statement of this passage we know that Spirit baptism first took place on the Day of Pentecost. It was then that believers were first placed into the body of Christ. It was then that the Church began.

But someone might raise an objection and say, “The Spirit baptism mentioned in Matthew 3:11 and Acts 1:5 is different from the Spirit baptism mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:13. In Matthew 3:11 and Acts 1:5 Christ is the Baptizer, but in 1 Corinthians 12:13 the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer. As we read the English Bible this seems to be the case, but the Greek construction of Matthew 3:11 and Acts 1:5 is practically identical to that of 1 Corinthians 12:13, as the following chart illustrates.

All four of these passages are talking about the same baptism, and the Greek construction in all four passages is closely equivalent, as the following literal rendering reveals:

Matthew. 3:11 He (Christ) shall baptize you with (in) Holy Spirit

Acts 1:5 You shall be baptized (by Christ-Matt. 3:11) with (in) Holy Spirit

Acts 11:16 You shall be baptized (by Christ-Matt. 3:11) with (in) Holy Spirit

1 Cor. 12:13 We all were be baptized (by Christ-Matt. 3:11) with (in) one Spirit into one body

The order of the words in 1 Corinthians 12:13 has been altered in order to show that the same Greek construction is used. In the King James Version the Greek preposition en is translated “By one Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:13) which has led some to wrongly conclude that the Spirit is the Baptizer. But the passage should be understood in this way: “With (en) one Spirit were we all baptized [by Christ] into one body [the body of Christ, His Church].”

Not only did Christ place us into His body, but He also immersed us in the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist made this prediction: “I indeed baptize you with water . . . He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 3:11). What does it mean to be baptized or immersed with (in) the Holy Spirit? The following Scriptures help to shed light:

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:13).

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which [the word ‘which’ refers to the Holy Spirit] He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour” (Titus 3:5-6).

“. . . having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:33).

“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly [innermost being] shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)” (John 7:38-39)

Praise God, the Comforter has come! The promise of the Father has been given! Spirit baptism began at Pentecost and continues throughout this present age whenever a person believes on Christ.

Other Arguments from Scripture

1. Pentecost, a Day Specially Marked.

If Pentecost marked the beginning of the Church, then this was indeed a significant day and we should expect that day to be specially marked. This is exactly what we find.

Pentecost was specially marked by the Comforter’s coming as predicted by the Lord Jesus in the Upper Room Discourse (John 14:16-17,20,26; 15:26; 16:7-8,13). After the resurrection, the disciples were told to sit still and wait (tarry) for the promise of the Father (Luke 24:49 and Acts 2:4). This promise of the Father was nothing less than the coming of the Spirit and it was clearly associated with Spirit baptism (see Acts 2:4-5). So the Day of Pentecost was specially marked by the coming of the Comforter.

Pentecost was also a day that was specially marked by supernatural signs. There was A SOUND LIKE A MIGHTY RUSHING WIND (Acts 2:2) and "wind" in Scripture can be symbolic of the Holy Spirit (see John 3:8). The Comforter had come! There were TONGUES AS OF FIRE (Acts 2:3) sitting upon each of the believers, indicating that God was doing a special work which involved each and every believer. There was also "SPEAKING IN TONGUES" (see our book, God’s Gift of Tongues for the significance of tongues speaking on the day of Pentecost). These supernatural signs indicated that God was doing something very special on this most unique day!

Pentecost was a day specially marked by Spirit baptism as we have already studied. It was also marked by two great distinctives which were predicted by Christ in John 14:20.

"Ye in Me" BAPTISM (see Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3)
"I in You" INDWELLING (see Gal. 2:20; 1 Cor. 6:19-20)

This twofold relationship was distinctively different from what the Jews had known in the previous dispensation. God was in the tabernacle and in the temple in a special way, and in the future God will manifest His glory in the millennial temple. But today God is dwelling in a body of believers (1 Cor. 3:16; Col. 1:26-27). The Church is "the house of God" (1 Tim. 3:15), His unique temple (Eph. 2:19-22). The Lord Jesus indicated that these realities would begin to take place "at that day" (John 14:20), at Pentecost!

Pentecost is a day that is especially marked out because Peter refers to it as "the beginning" (Acts 11:15). This is highly significant. Pentecost, according to Peter, was the beginning of something. No other day in the book of Acts is referred to as "the beginning" except Pentecost. What began on this day? What first happened on this day? According to Acts 11:15, Pentecost was the day when the Holy Spirit first came ("the Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning"). According to Acts 11:16, Pentecost was the day when Spirit baptism first took place. Spirit baptism is that unique work of God whereby believers are baptized or placed into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). Since Spirit baptism first began on the day of Pentecost, then this must be the day when the body of Christ, the church, was formed.

2. Foundational Men (Eph. 2:20).

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone" (Eph. 2:20).

The “apostles and prophets” mentioned in this verse are the New Testament apostles and prophets (see Eph. 3:5 and 4:11). These verses are not referring to the Old Testament prophets, and obviously there were no apostles in the Old Testament. The New Testament prophets and apostles were foundational men. When a building is constructed the foundation is laid first. If the Church had its beginnings in the Old Testament period then we might expect the verse to say something like this: “And are built upon the foundation of Abraham and Moses and David and the Old Testament prophets, etc.” However, the verse does not say this. If the Church began at Pentecost then we would expect the apostles and New Testament prophets to be foundational because God’s new revelation came through these men (Eph. 3:4-5).

3. The Church Must be Post-Resurrection and Post-Ascension.

According to Ephesians 1:19-23 the Father gave Christ to be the Head of the Church, but He did this only after the resurrection and ascension. The Church cannot exist apart from its Head. The Head of the Church is the glorified, exalted, risen and ascended Lord Jesus Christ. Thus the Church could not begin until after the ascension. Compare also John 7:39.

4. Jew and Gentile United Together in One Body.

The Church is a unique organism. In the Church, the body of Christ, Jews and Gentiles are united together in one body, and they are on an equal basis (Eph. 3:6). The saved Jew is not superior to the Gentile and the saved Gentile is not superior to the Jew. Out of the two God has made “one new man” (Eph. 2:15). In fact, in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Col. 3:11; Gal. 3:28). Such a situation never existed in the Old Testament period and such a situation will not even exist in the millennial period (see Zechariah 8:23). Thus the Church could not have existed in the Old Testament period and the Church age must conclude prior to the millennium.

5. The Temple of God.

In Ephesians 2:21-22 the Church is said to be God’s temple, the “habitation of God through the Spirit.” See also 1 Corinthians 3:16. In the Old Testament period, God had a tabernacle and God had a temple, but neither of these was a body of believers indwelt by the living God. This indwelling of a group of believers is true only during this present age, from Pentecost on.

6. One Body . . . One Baptism.

In Ephesians 4:4-6 we learn that the Church is “one body” and in connection with this “one body” there is “one baptism.” This one baptism is Spirit baptism, that special work of God whereby the believer is baptized into Jesus Christ and into His body. Christian baptism (water baptism) is symbolic of this “one baptism.” Since Spirit baptism did not begin until Pentecost, the Church did not begin until Pentecost, even as we have already studied. It is significant, therefore, that Christian baptism, the symbol of Spirit baptism, was first practiced on the Day of Pentecost. It is indeed a “Church ordinance.” Since there was no Spirit baptism or Christian baptism in the Old Testament period or in the days of Christ’s public ministry, it is obvious that the Church was not in existence in those days. That John’s baptism was different from Christian baptism is evident from Acts 19:1-5; compare Acts 18:24-26.

7. The Gifts that Pertain to the Church.

In Ephesians 4:7-12 we learn that Christ has given certain gifts to His Church. These gifts are actually gifted men (verse 11). It is significant that these gifts were not given prior to the ascension of Christ. Therefore the Church could not have been in existence prior to the ascension because His Church could not function apart from these necessary and needed gifts.

8. Paul Persecuted the Church.

In three places we learn that prior to his conversion Paul persecuted the Church of God (Gal. 1:13; 1 Cor. 15:9; Phil. 3:6). Therefore the Church must have been in existence prior to Acts 9, which gives the account of Paul’s conversion. This refutes the view which says that the church began in Acts 13 (or some would say in Acts 28). Also Acts 13 and Acts 28 were not specially marked as was Acts 2 (Pentecost). Both Acts 13 and Acts 28 were significant TURNING POINTS (from the Jews to the Gentiles-Acts 13:46 and Acts 28:25-28), but neither of these chapters marked the STARTING POINT.

Romans 16:7 may be significant in light of this teaching. Paul sends his greetings to saints whom he declares were "in Christ before me." If being "in Christ" means the same here as in Galatians 3:28 ("neither Jew nor Greek, etc,"), then the church must have begun prior to Paul's conversion.

For other helpful discussions about when the Church began, see Renald E. Shower’s book, There Really Is a Difference--A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology, Chapter 15 (published by the Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry), Charles Ryrie’s book, Dispensationalism, Chapter 7 (published by Moody Press) and The Glory of the Ages by David Dunlap.

Conclusion

This paper has demonstrated from the Scriptures that the Church of Jesus Christ is a unique body of believers which was first formed on the Day of Pentecost, not long after Christ died and rose again and ascended to heaven. This fact strikes a fatal blow to one of the pillars of Reformed/Covenant Theology, namely the doctrine that the Church is made up of the elect of all ages and that the Church was existent during the Old Testament period. Noah, Abraham, Joseph, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, John the Baptist—these were all godly saints, but they were not members of the Church which is His body.

The fact that the Church began at Pentecost also protects against extreme dispensational teaching which has the Church beginning in Acts 13 or Acts 28. Because they misunderstand the significance of Pentecost, other doctrines are adversely affected. Some teach that the Lord’s Table is not for today, while others teach that water baptism is not for today and still others teach that the Great Commission is not for today (or different combinations of these views).

May the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory . . .give unto [us] the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that [we] may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power” (Eph. 1:17-19).

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/begin.htm

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Then how do you reconcile these two fit your theory?

John 20

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

The one body text was none existent until Paul.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

"The fact that the Church began at Pentecost also protects against extreme dispensational teaching which has the Church beginning in Acts 13 or Acts 28. Because the ultradispensationalists misunderstand the significance of Pentecost, other doctrines are adversely affected. Some teach that the Lord’s Table is not for today, while others teach that water baptism is not for today and still others teach that the Great Commission is not for today (or different combinations of these views). "

Dispensationalists are very clear to understand Peter and the Last days speech at Pentecost.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Then how do you reconcile these two fit your theory?

John 20

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

The one body text was none existent until Paul.

If there are not two experiences of "receiving the Holy Ghost", and if there is only one experience, then why did Jesus say, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost" in John 20:22? Did they not receive the Holy Ghost when Jesus said that?

The answer is "No."

The disciples did not receive the Holy Ghost when Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22. Jesus was speaking prophetically about what would occur on the day of Pentecost. Otherwise they received the Holy Ghost after they received the Holy Ghost, and that is nonsensical. Jesus often spoke prophetically of the Holy Ghost baptism, and did not imply it was available for experience the moment He told of it. Here is one explicit example.

John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

He spoke in terms as though it was then-present. But we see an explanation in parentheses saying this referred to the Spirit which was not yet given.

In John 20:22, Jesus was speaking of their need to receive the Holy Ghost, and His breath upon them signified the breath of life that God gave to Adam that He might become a living soul. On the day of Pentecost, the "mighty rushing wind" was the fulfillment of these prophetic words of Jesus.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:

Dispensationalists are very clear to understand Peter and the Last days speech at Pentecost.

I know

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

This is true there is no such thing as a second blessing.

But the wording in acts is And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost

Being filled is not the same as being baptized.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

You can't be filled until AFTER you are baptized with the Spirit. But being filled with the Spirit doesn't mean that we are vessels and the Spirit is a substance poured into us. To be filled with the Spirit is like being filled with joy; to be filled with the Spirit means to be under His influence. Being baptized and being filled can happen at almost the same time.

Besides, Jesus said:

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. (John 16:7)

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

This is true and one cannot be baptized by the Spirit unless they have heard.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

And that brings us back to the church

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

the Body of Christ.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Yes. That started on Pentecost.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Yes. That started on Pentecost.

The Jewish half.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

I agree, but Peter also welcomed the first Samaritans and the first Gentiles into the church.

Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:44-46
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Sorry No Gentiles at Pentecost.

"An important fact is that the Holy Spirit came upon these Gentile believers before Peter finished his message (Acts 10:44). It is significant that, up to this point, Peter had given a brief history of Jesus Christ's earthly ministry and preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to them. When he said that "through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins", the Lord interrupted him by sending the Holy Spirit "on all them which heard the Word" (Acts 10:43-44). While he undoubtedly had a full Kingdom message in mind, he did not get to the part about repentance and baptism for the remission of sins as he had on Pentecost (cf. Acts 2:37-40).

Up to this point, this message was compatible with Peter's Kingdom gospel and the Grace gospel preached by Paul (I Cor. 15:3-4). We believe that at this point God intervened by saving Cornelius and those with him who believed and placed them into the Church, which is Christ's Body. Because the Kingdom program was already being superseded by the Dispensation of Grace, God's purpose in saving these Gentiles was to prepare Peter and the other Kingdom leaders to accept both Paul and his message as being from the Lord. When confronted by those in Jerusalem because he had gone "into men uncircumcised and didst eat with them" (Acts 11:1-3), he explained why he did what he did by telling how God had specifically sent him there and what took place, saying "what was I, that I should withstand God" (Acts 10:17). We know that Peter only came to an understanding of "why" this took place when he later learned about the purpose of the Dispensation of Grace from Paul (Gal. 2:1-10; cf. II Pet. 2:15-16). The timing and the manner in which Peter was sent to Cornelius provides strong proof that the Dispensation of Grace began with Paul's conversion and that the fading away of Israel had already begun. A major dispensational change had to have taken place for Peter to have been sent to Cornelius in the manner and at the time that he was.

THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL

When a controversy over circumcision in the Gentile churches arose in Antioch, Paul, Barnabas, and other leaders went to Jerusalem for a hearing before the apostles and elders of the church there (Acts 15:1-2). After much disputing, Peter took the floor and reminded them how God had used him to bring salvation to the Gentiles (Acts 15:3-11). These leaders then listened to what Paul and Barnabas had to say about how the Lord was using them among the Gentiles (Acts 15:12). James then stood up and defended their ministry to the Gentiles, insisting they not be put under the Law of Moses (Acts 15:13-21).

Our point here is that in referring back to the events in Acts chapter ten to defend Paul's ministry, Peter knew something new took place when the Lord sent him to Cornelius and that it related to Paul's message and ministry to the Gentiles. James, the apostles, the elders, and the whole church agreed and sent letters of acknowledgment to the believing Gentiles in Antioch and the regions of Syria and Cilicia asking only that they "abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication" (Acts 15:22-29).

That they specifically sent letters to the Gentile believers in the regions of Syria and Cilicia confirms that Paul's early ministry was the same then as it was at this time (Acts 15:23; cf. Gal. 1:18-21; Acts 9:26-30; Tarsus is in Cilicia)."

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Sorry No Gentiles at Pentecost.

True, but Peter's message to the Gentiles was still before Paul.

I like Stam, and I have nothing against the Berean Bible Society. I don't agree with everything they teach, but I can say that about a lot of denominations. And I really, really love Paul. So my debate isn't about being negative or judgmental.

It's about when the church started, that's all.

Paul was subject to the Jerusalem council, so that's another reason to think the church started with Peter in Jerusalem. Also, Peter was the rock upon which Jesus said He would build His church.

Acts 15:22-23 (NASB)
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

K bb later time 2 hit the woods.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

k

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Carol , that is completely another Gospel....you don't see that!

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hello Wild B,
Your posts states:

An important fact is that the Holy Spirit came upon these Gentile believers before Peter finished his message (Acts 10:44). It is significant that, up to this point, Peter had given a brief history of Jesus Christ's earthly ministry and preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to them. When he said that "through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins", the Lord interrupted him by sending the Holy Spirit "on all them which heard the Word" (Acts 10:43-44). While he undoubtedly had a full Kingdom message in mind, he did not get to the part about repentance and baptism for the remission of sins as he had on Pentecost (cf. Acts 2:37-40).

Wild B, I hope that you do not look at this one account(with your cited dispensational reasoning) as proof that repentance is not necessary. Cornelius is noted in Acts 10:2 as a "devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always." It is apparent that Cornelius was already humbled(with a repentant heart) before God and he was also ready to receive the new message from God.

Now when the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his band it was not to prove that repentance wasnt needed, but it was to confirm(witness) the truth of Peters words about Jesus.

So it is an important fact that the Holy Spirit fell on the gentiles AFTER Peter preached Jesus.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :

In Acts 7:38, Stephen used the word “church” in reference to the time of Moses. I understand that the word “church” translates the Greek word ekklesia, which means “called out ones.” Most people I talk to say the church began in the New Testiment times. But aren’t the Hebrews the “called out people” of the Old Testament (cf. Deut. 7:6-8), the people God called to himself? Doesn’t the Bible’s vocabulary of “church” help refute Dispensationalism’s assertion that the church is an entirely distinct entity from God’s people in the Old Testament?

“When Did the Church Begin?”
Ra McLaughlin says:
October 4, 2009 at 3:06 AM
First, please let me respond with some general comments on vocabulary, etymology and meaning. Then I’ll try to apply those ideas to the specific issues you raise.

It’s true that the etymology of the word ekklesia, translated “church” in most Bibles, means “called out.” But a word’s meaning is determined by its use, not by its etymology. The etymology often agrees with a word’s use, which is why it can be helpful to look at etymology. But as often as not, there are significant differences between a word’s etymology and its meaning.

For example, when in English we say that someone is “courteous,” we rarely mean that he or she exhibits the patterns of behavior that typically characterize a royal court. Instead, we simply mean that the person has a gracious manner and observes common forms of etiquette. The ideas of “courtesy” and “courtliness” are related, and were perhaps originally identical, but they are no longer one and the same. So, it is better to define terms on the basis of the ideas they represent, and the manner in which they are used, rather than on the sole basis of etymology.

That being said, with regard to the Greek word ekklesia, its etymology actually can be helpful in some ways. The word is a compound formed by putting a preposition (ek) meaning “out” in front of a noun (klesis) that means “summons” or “invitation.” And this corresponds fairly well to the way the word is used in Scripture. Generally, it identifies an “assembly” of people. It does not primarily refer to those that God has “called” or “set apart” unto himself, but rather to a gathering or meeting of individuals for any purpose. Now, this is not to say that the biblical writers did not see special meaning in the term as a word play, and prefer it for that reason. But the word was not commonly used in the first century to identify those who had been “called out of the world.” Instead, it was broadly understood to refer to those who had been “called to the meeting.”

It’s not hard to see how the meaning of “meeting” or “assembly” derived from the word “call.” Even in English we speak of “calling” meetings to order and of “calling” for an assembly. In the biblical vocabulary, those who attended the assemblies were “called out.” Now, this was true whether or not there had been an actual summons or invitation sent out. Any gathering could potentially constitute an assembly, including regular scheduled meetings that required no invitation (much like modern church services). So, in this sense, “church” is a generic word meaning “assembly.” And of course, there have been assemblies all throughout history.

But theologians often use the word “church” as a technical term that refers to “God’s people,” without reference to them even being assembled. The word is sometimes used this way in the Bible, so it is not completely foreign to Scripture. But the important question is not “Is the word used this way in the Bible?” but “Is this idea true to Scripture?”

We have many technical theological terms that never appear in the Bible, we have some that are used in the same way the Bible uses them, and we have some that are used in different ways than the Bible uses them. This can be confusing when we are not familiar with the technical use of the term, which probably means that theologians should take greater care in choosing their words. But the question of accuracy and truth should be determined by what any given theologian “means” rather than by the specific words he uses.

In the Reformed tradition, it is common to speak of God’s people at all times as the “church.” We sometimes distinguish between the “Old Testament church” and the “New Testament church.” And we have no aversion to applying the term “assembly” or “church” to God’s special covenant people, regardless of the word’s etymology.

But even within the Reformed tradition, there are those who prefer to use the word “church” to refer only to the “New Testament church.” This is not because they believe there were no assembly and no calling by God in the Old Testament. Rather, it is because they want to distinguish clearly between people groups in the Testaments, and because they believe that there are substantive differences between the two groups. They agree that there were assemblies at all times, and that God has always had a special people whom he has called to himself. But they prefer, for pedagogical reasons, to use the word “church” to refer only to the New Testament age.

With regard to Dispensationalism, the better responses to this error focus on the meaning of its theology rather than on its vocabulary. In my experience, a fuller understanding of the way biblical and theological vocabulary works helps one spot the errors of Dispensational teaching. Often, poor theological arguments rely on “slight of hand,” where arguments about vocabulary are used to distract from substantive issues, or where a theologian equivocates on the use of a particular term (n.b., those who make these errors rarely do it on purpose).

For example, consider this false statement, “The word ‘church’ is used differently in the Old and New Testaments, therefore God’s people in the New Testament are different from God’s people in the Old Testament.” I have heard well-meaning Christians make this argument. The argument is false in several ways, and could be addressed in a number of manners. But the response that gets to the heart of the issue is this: “Yes, the word ‘church’ is used differently. That is because the Old Testament uses different words to identify the people of God than the New Testament uses. But regardless of their differences in vocabulary, both Testaments identify the people of God as a unified group in all ages.”

Answer by Ra McLaughlin

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Carol , that is completely another Gospel....you don't see that!

What I see is that this topic is about when the church started. I'm sorry, but I have no idea of what you are talking about.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hello Wild B,
Your posts states:

An important fact is that the Holy Spirit came upon these Gentile believers before Peter finished his message (Acts 10:44). It is significant that, up to this point, Peter had given a brief history of Jesus Christ's earthly ministry and preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to them. When he said that "through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins", the Lord interrupted him by sending the Holy Spirit "on all them which heard the Word" (Acts 10:43-44). While he undoubtedly had a full Kingdom message in mind, he did not get to the part about repentance and baptism for the remission of sins as he had on Pentecost (cf. Acts 2:37-40).

Now when the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his band it was not to prove that repentance wasnt needed, but it was to confirm(witness) the truth of Peters words about Jesus.

So it is an important fact that the Holy Spirit fell on the gentiles AFTER Peter preached Jesus.

With love in Christ, Daniel

I think not. The Spirit visibly sealed Cornelious,
A UNCIRCUMCISED GENTILE as a SIGNAL/SIGN to Pete for the conformation of the NEW DISPENSATION OF GRACE, GOD was ushering in.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
In Acts 7:38, Stephen used the word “church” in reference to the time of Moses. I understand that the word “church” translates the Greek word ekklesia, which means “called out ones.” Most people I talk to say the church began in the New Testiment times. But aren’t the Hebrews the “called out people” of the Old Testament (cf. Deut. 7:6-8), the people God called to himself? Doesn’t the Bible’s vocabulary of “church” help refute Dispensationalism’s assertion that the church is an entirely distinct entity from God’s people in the Old Testament?

“When Did the Church Begin?”
Ra McLaughlin says:
October 4, 2009 at 3:06 AM
First, please let me respond with some general comments on vocabulary, etymology and meaning. Then I’ll try to apply those ideas to the specific issues you raise.

It’s true that the etymology of the word ekklesia, translated “church” in most Bibles, means “called out.” But a word’s meaning is determined by its use, not by its etymology. The etymology often agrees with a word’s use, which is why it can be helpful to look at etymology. But as often as not, there are significant differences between a word’s etymology and its meaning.

For example, when in English we say that someone is “courteous,” we rarely mean that he or she exhibits the patterns of behavior that typically characterize a royal court. Instead, we simply mean that the person has a gracious manner and observes common forms of etiquette. The ideas of “courtesy” and “courtliness” are related, and were perhaps originally identical, but they are no longer one and the same. So, it is better to define terms on the basis of the ideas they represent, and the manner in which they are used, rather than on the sole basis of etymology.

That being said, with regard to the Greek word ekklesia, its etymology actually can be helpful in some ways. The word is a compound formed by putting a preposition (ek) meaning “out” in front of a noun (klesis) that means “summons” or “invitation.” And this corresponds fairly well to the way the word is used in Scripture. Generally, it identifies an “assembly” of people. It does not primarily refer to those that God has “called” or “set apart” unto himself, but rather to a gathering or meeting of individuals for any purpose. Now, this is not to say that the biblical writers did not see special meaning in the term as a word play, and prefer it for that reason. But the word was not commonly used in the first century to identify those who had been “called out of the world.” Instead, it was broadly understood to refer to those who had been “called to the meeting.”

It’s not hard to see how the meaning of “meeting” or “assembly” derived from the word “call.” Even in English we speak of “calling” meetings to order and of “calling” for an assembly. In the biblical vocabulary, those who attended the assemblies were “called out.” Now, this was true whether or not there had been an actual summons or invitation sent out. Any gathering could potentially constitute an assembly, including regular scheduled meetings that required no invitation (much like modern church services). So, in this sense, “church” is a generic word meaning “assembly.” And of course, there have been assemblies all throughout history.

But theologians often use the word “church” as a technical term that refers to “God’s people,” without reference to them even being assembled. The word is sometimes used this way in the Bible, so it is not completely foreign to Scripture. But the important question is not “Is the word used this way in the Bible?” but “Is this idea true to Scripture?”

We have many technical theological terms that never appear in the Bible, we have some that are used in the same way the Bible uses them, and we have some that are used in different ways than the Bible uses them. This can be confusing when we are not familiar with the technical use of the term, which probably means that theologians should take greater care in choosing their words. But the question of accuracy and truth should be determined by what any given theologian “means” rather than by the specific words he uses.

In the Reformed tradition, it is common to speak of God’s people at all times as the “church.” We sometimes distinguish between the “Old Testament church” and the “New Testament church.” And we have no aversion to applying the term “assembly” or “church” to God’s special covenant people, regardless of the word’s etymology.

But even within the Reformed tradition, there are those who prefer to use the word “church” to refer only to the “New Testament church.” This is not because they believe there were no assembly and no calling by God in the Old Testament. Rather, it is because they want to distinguish clearly between people groups in the Testaments, and because they believe that there are substantive differences between the two groups. They agree that there were assemblies at all times, and that God has always had a special people whom he has called to himself. But they prefer, for pedagogical reasons, to use the word “church” to refer only to the New Testament age.

With regard to Dispensationalism, the better responses to this error focus on the meaning of its theology rather than on its vocabulary. In my experience, a fuller understanding of the way biblical and theological vocabulary works helps one spot the errors of Dispensational teaching. Often, poor theological arguments rely on “slight of hand,” where arguments about vocabulary are used to distract from substantive issues, or where a theologian equivocates on the use of a particular term (n.b., those who make these errors rarely do it on purpose).

For example, consider this false statement, “The word ‘church’ is used differently in the Old and New Testaments, therefore God’s people in the New Testament are different from God’s people in the Old Testament.” I have heard well-meaning Christians make this argument. The argument is false in several ways, and could be addressed in a number of manners. But the response that gets to the heart of the issue is this: “Yes, the word ‘church’ is used differently. That is because the Old Testament uses different words to identify the people of God than the New Testament uses. But regardless of their differences in vocabulary, both Testaments identify the people of God as a unified group in all ages.”

Answer by Ra McLaughlin

Barry Barry Barry you try so very hard.

Riddle me this Batman...

When was the term "body" used.

Now stop your sillyness.

[rapture]

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Carol , that is completely another Gospel....you don't see that!

Dale you are no longer worth of a response from Me,

For you have a FORM of Godliness but your denial of the POWER of GOD is no longer sillyness 2 me.

But a very serious misguided soul issue.

Repent while the day is yet called day.

[Frown]

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hello WildB,
Your response to my post said:

"I think not. The Spirit visibly sealed Cornelious,
A UNCIRCUMCISED GENTILE as a SIGNAL/SIGN to Pete for the conformation of the NEW DISPENSATION OF GRACE, GOD was ushering in"

The spirit "visibly" sealed Corelius? What do you mean "visibly?"

Whenever the Holy Spirit falls on anyone.....Jew or Gentile.... it is God confirming His Word. It is the "spirit witness" that Jesus is indeed risen and exalted to the right hand of God.

When Peter witnessed the gentiles receive the Holy Ghost, he knew then(with certainty) that salvation was being offered to the gentiles as well as the Jews.
But what is this "new dispensation of grace that you speak of?" Does it mean something other than God granting salvation to gentiles?"

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

can we chat tomorrow? i have been in the woods all day.

very tired....

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Sure. Get some sleep.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hello WildB,
Your response to my post said:

"I think not. The Spirit visibly sealed Cornelious,
A UNCIRCUMCISED GENTILE as a SIGNAL/SIGN to Pete for the conformation of the NEW DISPENSATION OF GRACE, GOD was ushering in"

The spirit "visibly" sealed Corelius? What do you mean "visibly?"

Whenever the Holy Spirit falls on anyone.....Jew or Gentile.... it is God confirming His Word. It is the "spirit witness" that Jesus is indeed risen and exalted to the right hand of God.

When Peter witnessed the gentiles receive the Holy Ghost, he knew then(with certainty) that salvation was being offered to the gentiles as well as the Jews.
But what is this "new dispensation of grace that you speak of?" Does it mean something other than God granting salvation to gentiles?"

With love in Christ, Daniel

Pete did not know for certainty , he was being prepared for this dispensation of Grace, to be reveled by Paul. Later confirmed!

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

When you have more time, and you are not so tired........please explain to me about this "new dispensation of grace" that you keep speaking of.
How is it different than the "old/former?" And how does it apply to us?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
When you have more time, and you are not so tired........please explain to me about this "new dispensation of grace" that you keep speaking of.
How is it different than the "old/former?" And how does it apply to us?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Gives you authority and power to move the throne.

2 help baseball fans.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

"Gives you authority and power to move the throne"

Seriously WildB.......do you expect me to understand what that means without some sort of explanation?

I think you really are tired.....all that fresh air......LOL

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
"Gives you authority and power to move the throne"

Seriously WildB.......do you expect me to understand what that means without some sort of explanation?

I think you really are tired.....all that fresh air......LOL

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

The Practical Beginning of the Body of Christ....

when all those gathered together waiting on the promised were filled with the Holy Spirit the Body of Christ became a reality and the Church age of Grace began!

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
The Practical Beginning of the Body of Christ....

when all those gathered together waiting on the promised were filled with the Holy Spirit the Body of Christ became a reality and the Church age of Grace began!

and your scripture for this teaching?

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Good morning WildB,
Would you please answer these questions of mine so I can get a fuller understanding of what this "new dispensation of grace" is all about.

How is it different than the "old/former?" And how does it apply to us?

Just citing one passage in Hebrews and making a short statement about "authority and power to move the throne" does not help me to understand this "new dispensation of grace". Please answer more plainly being specific to the 2 questions above.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

WildB, you would do well in reading all the chapter to see what is being said....

you say I am dening the power of Yahweh....

I know that is not so because I understand what Grace is......

Grace is Yahweh power in any individual to overcome sin in the everyday temptations of life...

Grace is the power of Yahweh in the heart to live separated lives from the evil of this world....

Grace is not just unmerited favor...

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Acts 2

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

the first Pentecost was the Law written on tablets of stone (DEATH)...the fulfillment of Pentecost was the writing of the Law on the heart (life)...

The Church began on Pentecost

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Acts 2

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

the first Pentecost was the Law written on tablets of stone (DEATH)...the fulfillment of Pentecost was the writing of the Law on the heart (life)...

The Church began on Pentecost

When this LAW was written on YOU/YOUR heart did your tongue clovenize as the mighty wind blew about and did you began to speak with other tongues all at once?

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB, you would do well in reading all the chapter to see what is being said....

you say I am dening the power of Yahweh....

I know that is not so because I understand what Grace is......

Grace is Yahweh power in any individual to overcome sin in the everyday temptations of life...

Grace is the power of Yahweh in the heart to live separated lives from the evil of this world....

Grace is not just unmerited favor...

Yet you post on any ways.

Riddle me this?

How does one judge another about instructing other's, with meeknees when grafted into the tree of opposition?

Definition of OPPOSE

1
: to place over against something so as to provide resistance, counterbalance, or contrast
2
: to place opposite or against something
3
: to offer resistance to
— op·pos·er noun
Examples of OPPOSE

The governor opposes the death penalty.
The change is opposed by many of the town's business leaders.
The group opposes the mayor and is trying to find a candidate to run against her.
You've opposed every suggestion I've made.
He met the man who will oppose him in the next election.
These two teams opposed each other in last year's playoffs.
We're hoping we can get more senators to oppose the legislation.

The Becausehelives oppose,s The Gospel of Grace because it takes the power away from the Curse of the LAW.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Good morning WildB,
Would you please answer these questions of mine so I can get a fuller understanding of what this "new dispensation of grace" is all about.

How is it different than the "old/former?" And how does it apply to us?

Just citing one passage in Hebrews and making a short statement about "authority and power to move the throne" does not help me to understand this "new dispensation of grace". Please answer more plainly being specific to the 2 questions above.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Morning my friend.

The Dispensation of Grace
Mystery or Prophecy?

By Cornelius R. Stam

We have often insisted that while the prophets "testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow," they knew nothing of the present period of grace which lies between our Lord's suffering and His kingdom glory.

"The dispensation of the grace of God," we read in Ephesians 3, was "a mystery" only made known "by revelation" to Paul, some years after the rejected Christ had returned to heaven. In verse 5 he says that "in other ages" it was "not made known." In verse 8 he calls it "the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God." In Romans 16:25 he says it was "kept secret since the world began." In Colossians 1:26 he insists again that it was "hid from ages and from generations."

But there are still thousands of sincere believers who do not see this. They think that the prophets predicted the reign of grace as well as the reign of Christ. Thus they lose some of the joy of that great surprise of grace which God planned for sinners "before the world began" (II Tim. 1:9), but "kept secret since the world began" (Rom. 16:25).

One of the Scriptures which troubles them most is I Peter 1:10: "Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you." They say that this proves conclusively that the dispensation of Grace was prophesied beforehand and was no mystery at all.

But here again we must distinguish between grace in a dispensation and the dispensation of Grace. Peter is not speaking of the reign of grace here, but of the grace that will prevail during the reign of Christ. This is clear from the 13th verse, where he exhorts his Jewish Christian brethren, "Hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Remember that like Christ on earth, Peter was a minister of "the Circumcision" (Rom. 15:18; Gal. 2:7). His message to the believing Jews had the kingdom reign of Christ in view.

The prophets had clearly predicted that God would judge the world for rejecting His Son and would enthrone Christ in spite of them. He did not do this immediately, however. In matchless mercy, He deferred the judgment and offered salvation to all who would receive it as a free gift through the merits of Christ. And so, while Christ is not yet reigning, grace reigns. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign" (Rom. 5:21).

An over-abounding grace is the outstanding characteristic of God's dealings with man in "this present evil age."

When Saul of Tarsus became the leader of an organized rebellion against Christ, God in love reached down to save him, choosing him as the very agent through whom He would proclaim grace to a lost world.

Listen to his testimony and his message:

"Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious, but...the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant" (I Tim. 1:13,14).

"Not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Rom. 5:15).

"But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Rom. 5:20).

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace; wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence" (Eph. 1:7,8).

"Being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).

"And God is able to make all grace abound unto you, that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work" (II Cor. 9:8).

"For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God" (II Cor. 4:15).

Do you wonder why we say that an over-abounding grace is the outstanding characteristic of God's dealings with man in "this present evil age"? Surely grace is reigning. Otherwise the thunders of God's judgment would roll and He would bring in the reign of Christ.

Though, in his first epistle, Peter told the believing Jews to "hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ," he later learned something of that greater grace which God was to manifest in deferring the judgment of the nations and the reign of Christ, and, as we shall see, he learned it from Paul.

As Israel refused to repent and Christ did not return, some began to cry "Where is the promise of His coming?" (II Pet. 3:4).

Peter now answers this beautifully. He says "Beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." And note, this is not a lame explanation offered today at the close of the age of Grace. This statement was made at the dawn of the age.

Peter goes on, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count [it], slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (II Pet. 3:8,9 cf. I Tim. 1:16 "all longsuffering"). So the delay must not be counted slackness on God's part, but longsuffering, and since "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day," this delay might continue for any amount of time, even though the signs of the last days had already begun to appear (Acts 2:16,17).

How did Peter know this? He certainly didn't find it in prophecy.

Before we quote the significant closing words of his epistle let us remember Paul's word in Ephesians 3:1-3. "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: how that by revelation He made known unto me the Mystery...."

How beautifully this harmonizes with the closing words of Peter's second epistle! He tells them not to count the delay slackness, but says "...account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you" (II Pet. 3:15). No wonder he says in the closing verse "But grow in grace!"

Peter has learned why "the revelation of Jesus Christ" is being delayed. May we learn it too. God is waiting because of "His great love," because He is loathe to judge.

How long He will continue to wait we cannot tell. We can only say to the unsaved, "We then, as workers together with Him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain....Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation" (II Cor. 6:1,2). And to the saved, "See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil" (Eph. 5:15,16).

THE MEANING OF GRACE AND HOW THIS AFFECTS US

Ask the average believer what the Bible word "grace" means, and he will doubtless reply "unmerited favor."

Actually, however, grace is much more than this.

Subjectively, it is that loving attitude, or disposition, on God's part, from which all His kindness toward us flows.

Objectively, it is all the kindness that flows from His love toward us.

Thus we read in Ephesians 2:2-6 that we were "the children of disobedience" and therefore "by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us,

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

"And hath raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

Note: This passage begins with those who were "children of disobedience" and "children of wrath" and, saving them "by grace," gives them a position in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus!

God's grace to us as sinners was great indeed, for:

"In [Christ] we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His [God's] grace" (Eph. 1:7).

But now, having given us a position in His beloved Son, God's grace goes out to us in still greater measure.

Ephesians 1:6 declares that God has "made us accepted [Lit., "engraced us"] in the Beloved." "The Beloved"! What a name for the Son of God's love!

Beholding us in Christ, God loves us and delights in us more than any father ever delighted in his son, or any grandfather in that precious grandchild.

Thus, while in Ephesians 1:7 we read that we have "redemption...the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace," in Ephesians 2:7 we see these riches of grace increased to us "exceedingly," now that we occupy a position "in the Beloved":

"That in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace...."

How?

"...in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus"!

What a prospect! Through the ages of eternity God will lavish His loving kindness upon us to demonstrate to all the universe "the exceeding riches of His grace"!

THE NATURE OF GRACE

To a young Christian who kept bemoaning his failures and lack of spiritual growth, and wondering how God could love him, a more mature believer responded substantially as follows:

"When I leave here and return to my home I will pick up my little baby girl and put her on my knee. Tired as I am, I will dandle her on my knee and, somehow, looking into that darling face and those pretty blue eyes, I will soon feel rested and refreshed.

"This is strange, in a way, for she does not love me. She doesn't even know what love is.

"She doesn't appreciate my problems and has no sympathy for me. My heart can be burdened with grief or filled with anxiety, and my mind vexed with difficult problems, but she doesn't even know or care. She just keeps gurgling and giggling at the attention I lavish upon her.

"She doesn't contribute one cent toward the needs of our family; indeed, she costs me a great deal of money and will for years to come. Yet I love that child more than I can say. There is no sacrifice I would not make for her; no good thing I would not gladly give her."

Such is the grace of God towards us, His children. It does not depend upon our faithfulness to Him or our appreciation of His love to us. He loves us with an unspeakable love and keeps lavishing upon us "the riches of His grace" simply because we are His children in Christ, the Beloved.

And strangely, is it not precisely this fact that proves to be our greatest incentive to give ourselves to Him in loving service and sacrifice!

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

When Did The Church Begin ( the Body of Christ)?

Introduction

Reformed/Covenant Theology teaches (with some variation in details) that the Church is made up of the elect of all ages, and therefore the Church must have begun with the first person who was saved. This is the common view, although some begin the church with the nation Israel. In either case, Reformed men are unanimous in teaching that the Church was present in the Old Testament period. This is illustrated by the headings found at the top of The Thompson Chain Reference Bible in the book of Isaiah: "God's mercy to the Church" "God avengeth His church" "His great mercies to the Church" "The church comforted" "The restoration of the Church" "The church exhorted" "God will comfort His church" "The prophet's zeal for the church" "Confession and complaint of the church" etc.

Reformed/Covenant men stress that throughout all history there is but one people of God, and that these saved people comprise the Church.

Dispensationalists teach that the Church is a unique body of believers that began on the day of Pentecost and will be removed from earth on the day that Christ comes for His own (the rapture). It is made up of both Jews and Gentiles united together into one body and enjoying equal status in the body of Christ (Eph. 3:5-6). This is the “one new man” of Ephesians 2:15 and the “one fold” of John 10:16.

Others hold to differing positions as to when the Church began. Some Baptist groups believe that the Church began with John the Baptist or at some time during the Lord’s earthly ministry. Others whom we consider ultradispensational, begin the Church years after Pentecost (some in Acts 13 and others in Acts 28).

The answer to the question of when the Church began is important and has many theological ramifications. It is not a difficult question to answer. The Scriptures pinpoint the beginning of the Church in a very simple and clear way, as we shall now seek to demonstrate.

The Key Argument from Scripture
Spirit Baptism

The key passage on Spirit baptism is found in 1 Corinthians 12:13—“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” The “one body” spoken of in this verse refers to the Church (see 1 Cor. 12:27-28; Eph. 1:22-23; 5:30-32; Col. 1:18), and Christ is the Head of this body. Spirit baptism is defined in 1 Corinthians 12:13 as that work of God whereby believers are baptized (immersed, placed) into Christ’s body, the Church. How then does a believer become a member of the body of Christ? It is by Spirit baptism.

The key to when the Church began is this: If we can determine when Spirit baptism first began, then we will know when the church began. When did God first baptize believers into His body? When were believers first placed into the body of Christ? To answer this is to determine the day on which the church began.

Spirit baptism was first predicted by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11 (and in the parallel passages: Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33):

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (Spirit), and with fire” (Matt. 3:11).

John’s baptism was a water baptism (“I baptize you with water”); Christ’s baptism would be a spiritual baptism (“He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit”). The “fire baptism” is for the unsaved and this is yet future (see Matthew 3:12). Notice the phrase, “He shall baptize you with (Greek-en) the Holy Spirit.” The verb “shall baptize” is in the future tense, indicating that Spirit baptism had not yet taken place when John the Baptist spoke these words. John was predicting that it would happen in the future, but he did not predict exactly when it would happen. Notice also that Christ is the Baptizer. He is the One who would place believers into the body of Christ. He is the One who would build His church. Christ is also the Baptizer in 1 Corinthians 12:13, as will be shown later.

In Matthew 16:18 the Lord Jesus said, “I will build My Church.” The future tense of the verb indicates that the building of the Church had not yet begun when Jesus said these words. He did not say, “I have built My Church.” He did not say, “I am building My Church.” No, the building project had not yet begun and thus the Church was yet future. At the time Jesus spoke the words of Matthew 16:18 the Church had not yet begun.

Today Christ is building His church. He is adding to the church daily such as should be saved (Acts 2:47). But the question is, when did this building program first begin?

In Acts 1:5 the Lord Jesus predicted that Spirit baptism was still future:

“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence” (Acts 1:5).

According to our Lord’s prediction, Spirit baptism had not yet taken place yet, though it would soon take place. No one had yet been immersed into the body of Christ. Thus, the Church could not have begun prior to Acts 1:5. When Jesus spoke the words of Acts 1:5 His death and His resurrection had already taken place, and yet Spirit baptism had not yet taken place and the church had not yet been formed. But the announcement of Acts 1:5 was very significant because Jesus said that Spirit baptism would take place “not many days hence” (not many days from now). This means that it would happen soon, in a matter of days. Indeed, as we shall learn, it happened just ten days later on the day of Pentecost.

The Day of Pentecost and the unique events that took place on that day are described in Acts chapter 2. In this chapter Spirit baptism is not specifically mentioned. It is not until Acts chapter 11 that we are specifically told that Spirit baptism took place on the day of Pentecost: “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning [on the Day of Pentecost]. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 11:15-16). Based on the clear statement of this passage we know that Spirit baptism first took place on the Day of Pentecost. It was then that believers were first placed into the body of Christ. It was then that the Church began.

But someone might raise an objection and say, “The Spirit baptism mentioned in Matthew 3:11 and Acts 1:5 is different from the Spirit baptism mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:13. In Matthew 3:11 and Acts 1:5 Christ is the Baptizer, but in 1 Corinthians 12:13 the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer. As we read the English Bible this seems to be the case, but the Greek construction of Matthew 3:11 and Acts 1:5 is practically identical to that of 1 Corinthians 12:13, as the following chart illustrates.

All four of these passages are talking about the same baptism, and the Greek construction in all four passages is closely equivalent, as the following literal rendering reveals:

Passage
Greek Construction
Matthew. 3:11 He (Christ) shall baptize you with (in) Holy Spirit
Acts 1:5 You shall be baptized (by Christ-Matt. 3:11) with (in) Holy Spirit
Acts 11:16 You shall be baptized (by Christ-Matt. 3:11) with (in) Holy Spirit
1 Cor. 12:13 We all were be baptized (by Christ-Matt. 3:11) with (in) one Spirit into one body

The order of the words in 1 Corinthians 12:13 has been altered in order to show that the same Greek construction is used. In the King James Version the Greek preposition en is translated “By one Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:13) which has led some to wrongly conclude that the Spirit is the Baptizer. But the passage should be understood in this way: “With (en) one Spirit were we all baptized [by Christ] into one body [the body of Christ, His Church].”

For a detailed discussion of the grammar involved in 1 Corinthians 12:13 see Spirit Baptism and 1 Corinthians 12:13.

Not only did Christ place us into His body, but He also immersed us in the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist made this prediction: “I indeed baptize you with water . . . He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 3:11). What does it mean to be baptized or immersed with (in) the Holy Spirit? The following Scriptures help to shed light:

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:13).

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which [the word ‘which’ refers to the Holy Spirit] He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour” (Titus 3:5-6).

“. . . having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:33).

“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly [innermost being] shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)” (John 7:38-39)

Praise God, the Comforter has come! The promise of the Father has been given! Spirit baptism began at Pentecost and continues throughout this present age whenever a person believes on Christ.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Carol , that is completely another Gospel....you don't see that!

If you think that then why did you post exactly the same article that I posted?

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Carol, you misunderstood the direction of my question!

was not disagreeing with you ....I was talking about the Bearen theology.....I can not believe you do not see that though very subtle, the Bearen Bible Society /WildB are teaching Another Gospel...

sorry you misunderstood...

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Carol, you misunderstood the direction of my question!

was not disagreeing with you ....I was talking about the Bearen theology.....I can not believe you do not see that though very subtle, the Bearen Bible Society /WildB are teaching Another Gospel...

sorry you misunderstood...

Repent While the day is yet called day.

IT IS CLEAR 2 ALL YOUR SILLYNESS!

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

When Paul used the expression "another gospel" in Galatians, he was talking about legalists.

becauseHElives, the BB Society teaches some things I don't agree with, and most other denominations also teach things I don't agree with. But if you're going to make statements like that about the Berean Bible Society, or anyone else, you need to prove your point or you won't be believed.

This is what they say

quote:
We are not the wild-eyed radicals that the theological media tries to portray us as. We are in agreement with the overwhelming majority of traditional dispensationalism. Our two primary points of disagreement are that we see the Body of Christ starting with the conversion and call of the Apostle Paul and that water baptism is not a requirement for this dispensation.

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1011392439.html

Okay, there are different beliefs about baptism. That doesn't make them another gospel unless they say it's required for salvation.

Secondly, I believe the Church started at Pentecost and the Gentiles were added later.

They believe it was not really the Body of Christ UNTIL the Gentiles were added because Paul's special revelation, his mystery, is that Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ with no difference. Until Paul, even after Peter's experiences, the Jews and the Gentiles were separated, like two different bodies.

Why is that so terrible?

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
When Paul used the expression "another gospel" in Galatians, he was talking about legalists.

becauseHElives, if you're going to make statements like that about the Berean Bible Society, or anyone else, you need to prove your point or you won't be believed.

This is what they say

quote:
We are not the wild-eyed radicals that the theological media tries to portray us as. We are in agreement with the overwhelming majority of traditional dispensationalism. Our two primary points of disagreement are that we see the Body of Christ starting with the conversion and call of the Apostle Paul and that water baptism is not a requirement for this dispensation.

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1011392439.html

Okay, there are many, many different beliefs about baptism. That doesn't make them another gospel unless they say it's required for salvation.

Secondly, I believe the Church started at Pentecost and the Gentiles were added later.

They believe it was not really the Body of Christ UNTIL the Gentiles were added because Paul's special revelation, his mystery, is that Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ with no difference.

Why is that so terrible?

Dam BigC you are one wild woman when rightous wraft gets in your kitchen.lol

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Carol what is so terrible is that the Bearen Bible Society reject Yahshua's teaching as pertaining to salvation!

not to mention the other New Testament writers all under the direction of the Holy Spirit...

yes the B B Society have some good teaching but that which is wrong teaching makes them very, very dangerous!

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Thanks, Wild One, I think. What is wraft?

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Thanks, Wild One, I think. What is wraft?

Dam righteous anger

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Carol what is so terrible is that the Bearen Bible Society reject Yahshua's teaching as pertaining to salvation!

not to mention the other New Testament writers all under the direction of the Holy Spirit...

yes the B B Society have some good teaching but that which is wrong teaching makes them very, very dangerous!

Dale what you teach is worse than what you accuse these people of.

In all seriousness. When was the last time u drank poison and lived or picked up some deadly snakes and not gotten bitten?

You claim it as your mail then do all of it.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

becauseHElives

quote:
Yahshua's teaching as pertaining to salvation!

Does our Lord teach a different salvation than Paul teaches?

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

Look, becauseHElives, this is all they're saying. Jesus taught about His spiritual kingdom, and He taught only Israel (Matthew 15:24). We know we have to wait for Him to return before His earthly kingdom begins. Paul teaches us how to live while we wait for the Lord to return. That doesn't mean that the Sermon on the Mount and the other moral teachings of our Lord are not for us today. They are! We WANT to live in ways that please our Lord! We also must realize that until He returns we are living in a fallen, wicked world with a sin nature; we are NOT living in His Messianic Kingdom now. We need to do what Paul tells us, and what the other New Testament writers tell us. That is, walk in the Spirit and don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Let's say your wife went grocery shopping. You planned together on what to have for supper. What do you do while she's gone? Do you eat supper? No, of course not, it isn't even cooked yet, (just as the kingdom hasn't come yet). So what do you do? You probably have chores and errands of your own to do, things that will please her and be good for your home.

That's what Paul is teaching us, what to do until Christ returns. The BB Society simply recognizes the fact that we are living in the Age of Grace while we wait for the Kingdom Age to begin at our Lord's return.

Finally, I know you think that the Church is Israel, but all Dispensationalists, including the BB Society, see The Bride and Israel as different things. We see Jews, Gentiles, and the Church. The Church was the great mystery because before there were only Jews and Gentiles. Now there is something new, a new creation, the Church, the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, where Jews and Gentiles are regenerated into a unity in Christ.

What's so terrible about that?

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Thanks, Wild One, I think. What is wraft?
Dam righteous anger

Must be a close cousin to wrath. But actually I'm not angry. Maybe angry at myself for being unable to explain this in a way that is understandable.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

BigC just give it up It is clear 2 all that Dale never needed Grace.

And really hates people like me who needs a lot of it of every second of every day.

Dale give the Devil a little do.

Here I stand kneeling always in my heart.

1 Peter 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

quote:
WildB you say.... Dale what you teach is worse than what you accuse these people of.

In all seriousness. When was the last time u drank poison and lived or picked up some deadly snakes and not gotten bitten?

You claim it as your mail then do all of it.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

do you realize you sound like Satan when he tempted Yahshua in the wilderness....

all I can answer is get the behind me Satan,

i am not calling you Satan , no more Yahshua was calling Peter Satan when he had to rebuke him....

you need no more Grace than i do....anyone that does not recognize the on going war between the Spirit and the flesh ....

our differences are because of the false teachings of the Bearen Bible Society....much of their teaching is good but there position on Paul's writings make them an offense to the True Gospel.

the Bearen Bible Society may be sincere but the are sincerely wrong...may Yahweh forgive them.

WildBwere any Gentiles saved on the day of Pentecost

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

quote:
Carol said.... Look, becauseHElives, this is all they're saying. Jesus taught about His kingdom, and He taught only Israel (Matthew 15:24), but we know we have to wait for Him to return before His kingdom begins.

Look,Carol the Kingdom is here now, it is in the heart of every believer....

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:

quote:
Carol said.... Look, becauseHElives, this is all they're saying. Jesus taught about His kingdom, and He taught only Israel (Matthew 15:24), but we know we have to wait for Him to return before His kingdom begins.
Look,Carol the Kingdom is here now, it is in the heart of every believer....

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Oh Dale Dale Dale.

How long must I suffer your sillyness.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:

quote:
WildB you say.... Dale what you teach is worse than what you accuse these people of.

In all seriousness. When was the last time u drank poison and lived or picked up some deadly snakes and not gotten bitten?

You claim it as your mail then do all of it.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
do you realize you sound like Satan when he tempted Yahshua in the wilderness....

all I can answer is get the behind me Satan,

i am not calling you Satan , no more Yahshua was calling Peter Satan when he had to rebuke him....

you need no more Grace than i do....anyone that does not recognize the on going war between the Spirit and the flesh ....

our differences are because of the false teachings of the Bearen Bible Society....much of their teaching is good but there position on Paul's writings make them an offense to the True Gospel.

the Bearen Bible Society may be sincere but the are sincerely wrong...may Yahweh forgive them.

WildBwere any Gentiles saved on the day of Pentecost

Just answer the Question and this time pretend that you are not Christ and I not the devil.

In all seriousness. When was the last time u drank poison and lived or picked up some deadly snakes and not gotten bitten?

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

WildB were any Gentiles saved on the day of Pentecost?

this ? pertains to this thread....please answer...

quote:
In all seriousness. When was the last time u drank poison and lived or picked up some deadly snakes and not gotten bitten?

In all seriousness, i don't tempt Yahweh but if the occasion arises...Yahweh is sufficient.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

becauseHElives

quote:
Look,Carol the Kingdom is here now, it is in the heart of every believer....

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Yes, the Kingdom is here now within us, but the Millennial Kingdom that was prophesized to Israel has not yet come. That was the Kingdom the Jews longed for. The Jewish leaders wanted a political leader who would deliver them from Rome. That was the Kingdom His apostles asked about in Acts 1.

Acts 1:6 (NASB)
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

They asked this AFTER Jesus had said

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Carol so you say no Gentiles were saved on Pentecost?

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Acts 2:5 - 11 (NASB) 5Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8“And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9“Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”

Unless you count the proselytes, I don't see Gentiles mentioned, but Jews from every nation.

Did I miss something?

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB were any Gentiles saved on the day of Pentecost?

this ? pertains to this thread....please answer...

quote:
In all seriousness. When was the last time u drank poison and lived or picked up some deadly snakes and not gotten bitten?

In all seriousness, i don't tempt Yahweh but if the occasion arises...Yahweh is sufficient.

"but if"

Hum so you have not, yet you would led others to death by your shallow understanding of Pauls commission and your following of another!

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

the proselytes were Gentiles....correct and they were saved on Pentecost ....

this topic is The Practical Beginning of the Body of Christ .....

Peter's Trumpets Message—on Pentecost

Joel begins his second chapter by speaking of the Day of the Lord, and he ends it by speaking of the Millennium. God's people look forward to both occasions through the Day of Trumpets and the Feast of Tabernacles, respectively.

Blow the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; for the day of the Lord is coming, for it is at hand: A day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. . . .

And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions; and also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My spirit in those days. And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Joel 2:1-2, 28-32)

Joel is certainly speaking of the events immediately before the Millennium, the "blood and fire" of the day of God's wrath, followed by the widespread availability of His Holy Spirit as the Millennium starts. Why, then, does Peter relate Joel's words to Pentecost? As he says, "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel" (Acts 2:16). Inebriation had nothing to do with it, the apostle asserts, as he begins his extended quotation of Joel 2:28-32, cited above.

Peter's comments are a "first" in several respects. They appear near the start of his very first sermon, of which there would be many more. They come in the very first sermon in the newly founded church of God, and there would be many, many more of these as well. In fact, they represent the very first time Old Testament scripture is quoted in a sermon by any apostle—ever.

For all that, however, this "first" is puzzling! What did Peter see in Joel's apocalyptic prophecy that made him think of Pentecost? Admittedly, Pentecost's "divided tongues, as of fire" (Acts 2:3) may have brought Joel's description of fire and smoke to his mind. And, yes, about fifty days earlier the sun had darkened, on the Passover afternoon of Christ's death. However, had the moon turned into blood then or on the day Peter preached? Where was the "blood and fire and pillars of smoke" of which Joel speaks? Perhaps most importantly, did God pour His Spirit "on all flesh" on Pentecost, AD 31? Why did God inspire Peter to quote Joel in this context?

The Pentecost Miracle

To understand why Peter connected the events on that Pentecost with Joel's prophecy, we will need to notice two things about the miracle of Pentecost: its nature and its participants.

The Miracle's Nature: The miracle temporally "healed" the ailment God imposed at Babel. There, God divided the languages of mankind, inflicting on it an impediment to communication (see Genesis 11:1-9). Suddenly, relationships became much more difficult to establish and maintain. Mankind scattered.

Communication is a two-way street, involving a source and a receiver. These are what we call the speaker and the hearer, respectively. By changing speaker and hearer, the miracle brought source and receiver together, where normally they would remain distant. The disciples spoke languages in which they were untutored. Members of their audience heard the disciples "speak in his own language" (Acts 2:6). Communication took place.

As miracles go, this is a "strange" one. It did not involve healing the blind, deaf, or lame en masse; it did not involve the wholesale casting out of demons. Compared to the plagues God sent on Egypt or to Jesus' raising of Lazarus from the dead, the Pentecost miracle was not dramatic. Nevertheless, we will see that it was significant.

The Miracle's Participants: The miracle involved Jewish speakers of a substandard dialect and Gentile hearers from around the world. The disciples were Galileans. By virtue of the distance separating them from Jerusalem, Galileans spoke a different dialect of Aramaic than that spoken in Jerusalem. Like many dialects, theirs was what linguists call a "shibboleth," a term they get from Judges 12:6. A shibboleth is a speech pattern that identifies the speaker's background. In the disciples' case, it marked them to be what the Jerusalem leadership considered uneducated and low class. As an analogy, one could compare the Galilean dialect to "cockney" English—also a shibboleth. The dons of Oxbridge look down on those who are "unfortunate" enough to speak cockney. That is how the effete Jewish elite in Jerusalem reacted to the Galilean dialect. Everyone who heard the disciples knew they were from Galilee. Their audience was dumbfounded that these untutored fellows could fluently speak other languages:

Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. (Acts 2:7-11)

Notice that they mention "Jews and proselytes." The cosmopolitan audience was not composed merely of Jews who had traveled from abroad for the holy day, but also of Gentiles converted to Judaism—that is, proselytes. Unlike typical Jews today, pre-Diaspora Jews (before AD 70) were dedicated missionaries. Christ Himself refers to their evangelistic zeal: "You travel land and sea to win one proselyte" (Matthew 23:15). Over the years, the Jews—like evangelicals today—had carried their religion everywhere. Paul preached the gospel in synagogue after synagogue throughout the Roman Empire. There were synagogues in the Parthian Empire as well; Peter, when he served God in Babylon, certainly frequented them. Judaism had reached the Far East by Christ's time and perhaps the distant West as well.

Pentecost's was a miracle of language. It showed Peter what Pentecost was all about: God had enabled communication between Himself and mankind. He had made it possible to build a relationship between God and man and between man and man. Even if human civilization had reached the end of its rope—suffering the judgment of God, as Joel apocalyptically describes it—"whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21).

Most importantly, Peter understood that this new level of communication included the Gentiles. This is why Joel's words struck home to him on the Day of Pentecost. He knew that the word "whoever" included the Gentiles scattered about in the audience. He preached good news to them: They now had access to God's salvation.

Notice Peter's concluding comments to his sermon that day. In answer to the peoples' query, "What are we to do?" the apostle replies:

Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. (Acts 2:38-39)

Gentiles, those "who are afar off," could be "among the remnant whom the Lord calls" (Joel 2:32).

Servants to the Gentiles

Joel 2:28-31 offers hope to the Gentiles. Joel was not alone in writing of that hope. The prophet Isaiah speaks of the coming of a "Servant" who will raise up the remnant of Israel and serve "as a light to the Gentiles . . . to the ends of the earth."

And now the Lord says, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel is gathered to Him (for I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and My God shall be My strength), indeed He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth." (Isaiah 49:5-6)

The reference to Christ as God's Servant here is reminiscent of Acts 2:18 (and Joel 2:29), where God says He will pour out His Spirit "on My menservants and on My maidservants." Those in God's New Testament church act as God's servants, under Christ, the Head of the church, to preach the gospel "in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come" (Matthew 24:14). Only about thirty verses later, in Matthew 24:45-51, Jesus again makes use of the servant metaphor, this time in the Parable of the Faithful and Evil Servants. The working servant is rewarded at Christ's return, but the evil one, convinced that "My master is delaying His coming," finds himself "cut . . . in two."

Christ's Ministry of Light

Centuries after Isaiah wrote those words of hope, another of God's servants speaks of Christ as a light to the Gentiles. Simeon, recognizing the infant Jesus as God's Anointed, exclaims:

Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, according to Your word; for my eyes have seen Your salvation which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, a light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel. (Luke 2:29-32)

Christ would eventually serve as a light to the Gentiles. While Simeon does not quote Isaiah directly, he was certainly familiar with Isaiah 49 as well as Isaiah 8 and 9.

In these two early chapters of Isaiah, the prophet also shows Christ as a light to the Gentiles. Lurking in them is the rhetoric of Joel—the darkness, the shadow of death, yet afterward, just as in Joel, hope shines through.

To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. . . . Then they will look to the earth, and see trouble and darkness, gloom and anguish; and they will be driven into darkness. Nevertheless the gloom will not be upon her who is distressed, as when at first He lightly esteemed the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward more heavily oppressed her, by the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, in Galilee of the Gentiles. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in the land of the shadow of death, upon them a light has shined. (Isaiah 8:20, 22; 9:1-2)

Isaiah wrote after the fall of Israel to Assyria. The Assyrians' attack on the land of Zebulun and Naphtali, in the northern part of Israel, came in two waves. The first "distress" resulted in the deportation of some Israelites. The second oppression was much heavier, resulting in the deportation of virtually everyone. Then, the Assyrians imported Gentile peoples to the area of Zebulon and Naphtali, the area of Galilee. Their descendants—the Samaritans—heavily populated Galilee in Christ's day.

Christ was reared in Galilee, where small enclaves of Jews lived among many Gentiles. Matthew, writing of the start of Christ's ministry, writes:

Now when Jesus heard that John [the Baptist] had been put in prison, He departed to Galilee. And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the regions of Zebulun and Naphtali, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; the people who sat in darkness saw a great light, and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death light has dawned." From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 4:12-17)

It was in the Gentile area of Galilee—not in Jewish Jerusalem to the south—where Christ began His ministry of light. In Romans 11:11, Paul asserts that "salvation has come to the Gentiles." Peter, in citing Joel in his first sermon, understands the Gentiles to be spiritually "in the region and shadow of death," in deep darkness, with clouds obscuring their vision of God's salvation. He relates Joel to Pentecost because, on that day, God spread apart those clouds to allow the light of His salvation to reach the Gentiles, dispelling their gloom. What happened in Acts 2 gave the Gentiles the hope that they could build a relationship with the God of salvation. The hope of the Gentiles becomes the theme of the book of Acts, as seen, for example,

» in the preaching by Philip to the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8);

» in the work by Peter with Cornelius and his family (Acts 10); and

» in Paul's ministry to the Gentiles in every city he visited. God called Paul "to bear My name before Gentiles" (Acts 9:15). Chapters 11 through 28 of Acts relates how Paul did that.

Christ: the Hope of the Gentiles

As the passages in Isaiah (and elsewhere) indicate, God did not "remember" the Gentiles by way of afterthought. He planned to offer them salvation early on. How early? Genesis 12 records the call of Abraham (then Abram), and the first of God's many promises to him. God tells the patriarch,

Get out of your country, from your kindred and from your father's house, to a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed. (Genesis 12:1-3)

God remembers the Gentiles when He calls Abraham, promising that every nation, "all the families of the earth," will be blessed in the blessings of Abraham. Paul, "the apostle to the Gentiles" (Romans 11:13), carries the thought to its conclusion when he asserts that the line demarcating Jew and Gentile disappears in Christ: "[T]here is neither Jew nor Greek; . . . for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:28-29).

It is no accident that the events of Pentecost, AD 31, introduce the book of Acts. God uses the linguistic miracle to indicate the broad-based hope the Gentiles now have in Christ. God had enabled a hitherto closed communication channel between God and man—as well as between man and man. The gulfs separating God and mankind—and man and man—were now bridgeable. "On earth peace, good will toward men" (Luke 2:14), of which the heavenly host had sung, was now attainable. God displayed His ability to reverse the effects of Babel.

Communication between God and mankind. Paul, writing to the Ephesian church, makes it clear that the hope promised in the Old Testament to the Gentiles came with Christ. The result is that they can become members of God's household—His Family.

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been made near by the blood of Christ. . . . Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God. . . . (Ephesians 2:11-13, 19)

Communication between man and man. Pentecost also teaches us about the power God gives us to bridge the gap between human beings. Individuals led by God's Spirit become related to each other by the fact that they "are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God." Paul summarizes the relationship near the end of Romans. Notice, incidentally, that Paul refers here to Christ as a servant:

Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written: "For this reason I will confess to You among the Gentiles, and sing to Your name." And again he says: "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people!" And again: "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles! Laud Him, all you peoples!" And again, Isaiah says: "There shall be a root of Jesse; and He shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, in Him the Gentiles shall hope." (Romans 15:7-12)

Christ will eventually "reign over the Gentiles." At that time, He will finish the work He started at Pentecost, complete the work that Pentecost merely presages. The prophet Zephaniah prophesies that God will eventually reverse the linguistically divisive effect of Babel: "I will restore to the peoples a pure language, that they may call on the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one accord" (Zephaniah 3:9).

Note the plural: peoples. To "all the families of the earth," God will open the channel of communication by which they, as Joel and Peter agree, may "call on the name of the Lord." Then, they will be, as at that time of Pentecost, AD 31, "with one accord" (see Acts 1:14; 2:46; 4:24; 5:12).

Paul concludes in Romans 15:13: "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." The miracle of that Pentecost day gives "whoever calls on the name of the Lord"—Gentile and Israelite alike—"joy and peace" because of the hope all share through God's Spirit.

http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PW/k/812/Peters-Trumpets-Message-on-Pentecost.htm

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

"the proselytes were Gentiles....correct and they were saved on Pentecost ...."

That is not what the word says.

The Biblical term "Proselyte", derives from the Koine Greek προσήλυτος/proselytos, as used in the Septuagint for "stranger", i.e. a "newcomer to Israel"; a "sojourner in the land", and in the New Testament for a convert to Judaism from Paganism.

Where the heck you get your theory is beyond me and the Tec. Manual of Life.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

The Unsearchable Riches of Christ

by Pastor J. C. O'Hair

CHRIST CAME UNTO HIS OWN

“HE WAS IN THE WORLD, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, AND THE WORLD KNEW HIM NOT. HE CAME UNTO HIS OWN, AND HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT. BUT AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME.” John 1:10 to 12.

Here we have the statement that Christ’s own received Him not. His own refers to the Jews. But note these statements:

John 2:23; Many believed in His name.

John 4:39 to 41; Many more believed on Him.

John 7:31; Many of the people believed on Him.

John 8:30; Many believed.

John 10:42; Many believed on Him.

John 11:45; Many of the Jews believed on Him.

After reading these statements then read John 12:37 to 40:

“ But though He had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on Him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”

Thus we have the statements that “many believed on Him” and “His own received Him not”. Note the question of the Pharisees: “Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on Him?” John 7:48

Most of the rulers of Israel neither believed nor received Christ. We see then that the Lord Jesus, while on earth, was not only offering salvation to individual Jews, but was presenting Himself and His kingdom to the Nation Israel. “But His own received Him not.” They knew not the time of their visitation. Luke 19:44. They knew not the things that belonged to their peace. Luke 19:42.

Note Christ’s words concerning John the Baptist: “But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto Him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of Him.” Mark 9:13

“And if you will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.” Matthew 11:14. Then note Luke 13:34 and 35: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate; and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.”

In what sense was Israel’s house left desolate? On the day of Pentecost 3000 Israelites believed and were saved. Acts 2:41 to 43. Then note Acts 4:4—“Howbeit many of them which heard the Word believed; and the number of men was about five thousand.” These were all Israelites.

Then note Acts 5:14—“And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.” All Jews. “And the Word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.” Acts 6:7. All Jews.

Then note Acts 11:19—“Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the Word to none, but unto the Jews only.”

Many of Christ’s own did receive Him. What is meant then by the statement, “His own received Him not?”

HOW ABOUT GENTILES?

Now search the Scriptures diligently from Matthew 1:1 to Peter’s statement in Acts 10:28, about seven years after the death of Jesus Christ, and count the Gentiles to whom Christ or His twelve apostles preached.

When the Twelve met one Gentile what did they say? “And His disciples came and besought Him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.” Matthew 15:23. Why did they do this? “These Twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Matthew 10:5 and 6.

Why did one Gentile man receive a blessing from Jesus Christ on earth? “For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.” Luke 7:5. “And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto Him the elders of the Jews, beseeching Him that He would come and heal his servant.” Luke 7:3

AS MANY AS RECEIVED CHRIST

“As many as received Christ.” Think of this in the light of Acts 10:28 and Romans 10:14

“Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.”

“How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

If it was not lawful for the Jewish disciples of Christ to go to the Gentiles, how could they hear and receive Christ? If the Gentiles did not hear the gospel they could not believe and receive Christ.

How do we reconcile Matthew 15:24 with John 3:16. “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

In the light of Matthew 15:24 and Acts 10:28 and Acts 11:19, we must conclude that there was no “whosoever” message for the Gentiles until the words of Peter, in Acts 10:34 and 43. “Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respector of persons.” “To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins.”

The proselytes, of Acts 2:10, were Gentiles by nature, but Jews by religion. The Grecians, of Acts 6 and 11, were Greek-speaking Jews. Philip did not preach to Gentiles, in the city of Samaria. Acts 11:19.
In the light of Acts 10:28 and 11:19 we may be sure that the Ethiopian was a proselyte. Acts 8:27.

Several years after Philip preached to the Ethiopian, the other apostles condemned Peter for preaching to the household of Cornelius. Acts 11:1 to 5.

Note what happened after Peter told them of Christ’s instructions to preach to Cornelius. “When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” Acts 11:18.

Now compare

1—Go not into the way of the Gentiles. Matthew 10:5.

2—It is an unlawful thing for a Jew to go to a Gentile. Acts 10:28.

3—”And when James, Peter, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.” Galatians 2:9.

Here we learn concerning the twelve apostles; from first to last their ministry was to and for Israel.

DOGS AND NO DIFFERENCE

WHILE JESUS CHRIST WAS ON EARTH

Now let us compare Matthew 15:24—26—27 with Romans 10:12 and 13.

“I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

“It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and cast it to dogs.”

“And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master’s table.”

ABOUT 25 YEARS LATER

“For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek; for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

There is a very great difference between a sheep and a dog. This was the difference between the Jews and the Gentiles, while Christ was on earth.

But twenty-five years later there was no difference. Something had happened.

ISRAEL REJECTED

Now let us compare the statement of Christ to the Jews, “your house is left unto you desolate”, with Paul’s statement to the Jews, in Acts 13:46: “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the Word of God should first have been spoken to you but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.”

Why was it necessary that the Word of Christ should be preached to Israel first, some years after Christ had said “your house is left unto you desolate”?

The answer is, Luke 23:34—Acts 3:1718 and 3:26,

“Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”

“And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all His prophets, that Christ should suffer, He hath so fulfilled.”

“Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”

Christ on the cross prayed for Israel. God gave Israel another chance. And for several years after the prayer of Christ, God’s order was “to the Jew but not to the Gentile.” And then for some years, God’s order was “to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.” Romans 1:16—Acts 13:46—Acts 18:6 and Acts 28:28.

Then what happened? Study, “as many as received Christ” and John 3:16, in the light of Romans 11:30 and Ephesians 3:1 and 2 and 3:6.

“
As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name. “

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

“For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief.”

This was written years after Christ died.

“For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward.”

“That the Gentiles should be jointheirs, and of the JOINT-BODY, and jointsharers of His promise in Christ by the gospel. “

Israel’s blindness, unbelief, and rejection brought mercy and salvation and reconciliation for and to the Gentiles. Romans 11:11 and 11:15.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

quote:
Oh Dale Dale Dale.

How long must I suffer your sillyness.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

So you don't believe the Kingdom of Yahweh has come now (Among) (in the Midst of) hearts of men and women through Grace. The Kingdom of Yahweh in not a fiscal Kingdom, The Kingdom of Yahweh is anywhere Yahshua is....in Heaven or Earth

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

You don't believe in the Millennial Kingdom?

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

quote:
If it was not lawful for the Jewish disciples of Christ to go to the Gentiles, how could they hear and receive Christ? If the Gentiles did not hear the gospel they could not believe and receive Christ.

Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

quote:
You don't believe in the Millennial Kingdom?

yes i believe in the Millennial Kingdom, Yahshua will be there too!

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Dale I would of stayed and played your game but I had too go deep into the swamp with a neighbor to retrieve a nice size buck. We were so far back that we had to poll carry it back.

I commented to him that this is just a little bit what the weight of that cross Christ did carry.

He said yes indeed. We had to stop several times to catch our breath.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:

quote:
If it was not lawful for the Jewish disciples of Christ to go to the Gentiles, how could they hear and receive Christ? If the Gentiles did not hear the gospel they could not believe and receive Christ.
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

1 Corinthians, Chapter 14, 022: Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:

You better go back and study what sermon Pete did preach and then com-pair it to Pauls Commission from Christ.

Just say-in.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

by Pastor J. C. O'Hair

IT IS THE LAST TIME

We read in the Bible of “the end of the age”, “the last days”, “then cometh the end”, and “the last time.”

We quote I John 2:18 and 19.

“LITTLE CHILDREN, IT IS THE LAST TIME; AND AS YE HAVE HEARD THAT ANTICHRIST SHALL COME, EVEN NOW ARE THERE MANY ANTICHRISTS; WHEREBY WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST TIME. THEY WENT OUT FROM US, BUT THEY WERE NOT OF US; FOR IF THEY HAD BEEN OF US, THEY WOULD NO DOUBT HAVE CONTINUED WITH US; BUT THEY WENT OUT, THAT THEY MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST THAT THEY WERE NOT ALL OF US.”

There were many antichrists in John’s day. There was a falling away. From the time of John, down through the centuries, the Church passed through some perilous times. There were many heretics, false-prophets and corrupt religious leaders in the Church. Even the fundamental doctrine of Christianity was lost to most professing Christians for centuries. But it was recovered when Martin Luther and others proclaimed “justification by faith.” All during that dark period of the history of the Christian Church there was a remnant of spiritual faithful saints who knew that their hope was the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ to take the members of His Body to heaven.

“For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able to subdue all things unto Himself.” Philippians 3:20 and 21.

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Titus 2:13.

“For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ Who is our life shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.” Colossians 3:3 and 4.

Note what Paul wrote to the saints at Corinth. “So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” I Corinthians 1:7 and I Corinthians 15:51 and 52.

Note what was written to the Hebrews “For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry.” Hebrews 10:37.

“So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” Hebrews 9:28.

The Christians of the first century were instructed to wait for, to look for, to confidently expect the Lord Jesus Christ to appear. They believed in the imminent coming of the Lord Jesus for His Church.

It is interesting to note the Greek word translated “shall come” in II Thessalonians 1:10. This word is “elthe”and should be translated “shall have come.” Note in II Thessalonians 1:7 to 9, that the return of the Lord Jesus Christ was expected in the first century. He would come in wrath and destruction upon the disobedient sinners. “When He shall have come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.” II Thessalonians 1:10.

Now remember John’s statement, “it is the last time.” Note what John wrote in connection with this—“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.” I John 3:2 and 3.

“And now, little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” I John 2:28.

This hope of the coming of Christ was a vital, blessed, purifying hope. And we remember the words of the Lord Jesus, in Luke 14:14—“And thou shalt be blessed for they cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.”

At the time the Lord Jesus spoke these words none of His disciples knew any thing of the mystery of I Corinthians 15:51 and 52, or the blessed hope of Titus 2:13.

But all of the saints of the Lord were instructed by the Lord’s apostles to wait every day, and to look every moment for the glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus for His Church. They believed in the imminent coming of the Lord Jesus for His Church. This is called by some Christians “the any-moment theory”. With those Christians it was no theory, but the blessed hope that caused them to be practical Christians., They were not told to wait until Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, and the Emperor of Japan entered into a pact and conspiracy against the rest of the world, in 1940 A.D., before they could expect Christ to redeem their bodies. They were waiting for God’s Son from heaven in John’s day.

They knew the difference between the blessed hope of Titus 2:13, that Christ would appear for His Body, and the second coming of the Son of man for Israel’s redemption, and to judge the world, as recorded in Luke 21:27 to 32, and Matthew 25:31.

THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN

“AND THEN SHALL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY. AND WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, THEN LOOK UP, AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, FOR YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH. AND HE SPAKE TO THEM A PARABLE; BEHOLD THE FIG TREE, AND ALL THE TREES; WHEN THEY NOW SHOOT FORTH, YE SEE AND KNOW OF YOUR OWN SELVES THAT SUMMER IS NOW NIGH AT HAND SO LIKEWISE YE, WHEN YE SEE THESE THINGS COME TO PASS, KNOW YE THAT THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NIGH AT HAND. VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS AWAY, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.” Luke 21:27 to 32.

“ When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.” Matthew 25:31.

This has nothing to do with the redemption of the Church. Members of the Body of Christ are already redeemed.

“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the Beloved. In Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.” Ephesians 1:5 to 7.

“Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:14.

“And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” Ephesians 4:30.

The bodies of the members of the Body of Christ will be redeemed by the appearing of Christ for His Church. Christ is not “the Son of man” to His Church.

When Christ comes for His Church He will find more Christians on this earth, and more faith on this earth, than ever before. There are more genuine Christians in Chicago today than ever lived at any one time in Jerusalem, Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, or in any other city. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Church there will be many faithful saints here. But when He comes as the Son of man to the earth, He will not find faith on the earth. Luke 18:8. Christ is not coming to the earth for the Church which is His Body. He is not coming to the earth for His Church. His Church is going to rise to meet Him. Christ is not coming for His Church as “the Son of man.” That is His title to Israel. Note again, Matthew 25:31—“When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.”

THE LAST DAYS OF ACTS

Now let us consider the last days of Acts 2:16 and 17 and Acts 15:16.

“But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.”

“After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up.”

These verses should have very serious, diligent, prayerful consideration.

Here we have prophecies of Israel’s Old Testament prophets concerning Israel’s last days. The two prophets are Joel and Amos, Read carefully the second chapter of Joel and the last part of Amos, chapter nine, and you will learn that both of these Israelitish prophets wrote concerning the coming kingdom age of Israel. This present age of grace, during which the Body of Christ is being completed, is not Israel’s kingdom age; and therefore, neither Joel nor Amos was referring to this dispensation. Neither Joel nor Amos said one word about the beginning of this age, or about the course of this age, or about the culmination of this age. They were the sons of men in other ages to whom the Holy Spirit revealed nothing concerning “the Church of the Mystery.”

Note Colossians 1:24 to 26.

“Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His Body’s sake, which is the Church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the Word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to His saints.”

This agrees with Ephesians 3:5 to 8.

“Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. That the Gentiles should be joint-heirs, and of the same (Joint) Body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel; Whereunto I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto Me by the effectual working of His power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.”

Truth concerning the Joint-Body, the Church of the Mystery, is called “the unsearchable (unprophesied) riches of Christ.” This truth was God’s mystery, God’s secret at the time Joel and Amos wrote concerning Israel’s “last days”. They knew nothing and therefore they wrote nothing concerning the Joint-Body of Ephesians 3:6, the Church of the Mystery.

Then surely we know that no member of the Body of Christ is receiving the Holy Spirit or any other spiritual blessing in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy. If members of Christ’s Body are being blessed with all spiritual blessings, in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy, or are becoming members of the Church of the Mystery, in fulfillment of Amos’ prophecy, then Paul was deluded when he wrote Colossians and Ephesians.

No! Paul did not err. He wrote to save us from the faulty dispensationalism of the present day Fundamentalists who teach that “the Church of the Mystery”, “the dispensation of the mystery” (Ephesians 3:9), “the dispensation of the grace of God for Gentiles” (Ephesians 3:1 to 3), “the unsearchable riches of Christ”, began on a Jewish holy day, Pentecost, when Peter used the keys of the kingdom of heaven to devout Jews from every nation under heaven. (Acts 2:5.
Note the clear language of Peter in Acts 2:16—Acts 3:24—Acts 15:15.

“BUT THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL.” “YEA, AND ALL THE PROPHETS FROM SAMUEL AND THOSE THAT FOLLOW AFTER, AS MANY AS HAVE SPOKEN, HAVE LIKEWISE FORETOLD OF THESE DAYS.”

“AND TO THIS AGREE THE WORDS OF THE PROPHETS; AS IT IS WRITTEN.”

All that Peter preached to Israel and concerning the salvation of the household of Cornelius was in fulfillment of, in agreement with, Joel, Amos, Moses, Samuel, David, and all of the other prophets who wrote. They foretold the program of Acts 15:14—“Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.” “To this agree the words of the prophets (Amos).”

Therefore this prophecy has no reference to the Church of the Mystery, concerning which Amos knew nothing.

The doctrine of “the any-moment coming of Christ for His Church” is wholly irreconcilable with the teaching that His coming is imminent because of what the Gentile rulers of Europe and Asia are doing at present.

It is a mistake, yea, a serious dispensational blunder to call “the last days” concerning Israel’s kingdom, the first days of the Church, or Body, of the mystery.

“The dispensation of the mystery” did not begin with Peter, Israel and Pentecost, but with Paul when and because Israel was set aside after the death of one of the twelve apostles. (Acts 12:1 and 2)

As long as the number of apostles remained twelve, (Peter and the eleven), God had a kingdom program for the twelve tribes of Israel. But note Acts 13:2—Acts 13:46 and Acts 14:27. “As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.”

“Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold and said, It was necessary that the Word of God should first have been spoken to you; but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.”

“And when they were come, and had gathered the Church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how He had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.”

A new movement began with Acts 13:46. God has not abandoned His program prophesied by Joel and Amos, concerning Israel’s last days. The kingdom is in abeyance. Israel’s kingdom covenants have been interrupted for a parenthetical “grace” period.

God will fulfill Acts 15:16—“After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up.” Yes, He will pour out His Spirit, in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy, after the Church of the Mystery has been completed, “the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.” Ephesians 1:23.

Note again Acts 3:24:

“Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”

“These days”. What days? Not the days of the dispensation of the grace of God. Israel’s kingdom days.

THE END TIME

In the light of the foregoing we should be very careful to qualify the question, “Are we living in the end time?” What end time? The members of the Body of Christ will not be here during the “time of the end”, mentioned in Daniel. This present period is a parenthesis. Daniel received revelations and answers from the God of heaven, but nothing concerning the revelation of this age which Christ gave to Paul.

Every member of the Body of Christ should know the difference between “the signs of the times” and “the times of the signs,”. This is not the “sign” age. We are looking for the Son and not for signs. Let’s keep busy with God’s program as set forth in II Timothy 1:7 to 10 and Titus 2:11 to 14.

“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner; but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God: Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

We are not told to look to Europe for the coming of Christ. “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.” Philippians 3:20 and 21.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

this topic is about the beginning not the end if the church.....try to focus WildB....

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
this topic is about the beginning not the end if the church.....try to focus WildB....

Stop baiting that focus can be maintained.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:

quote:
If it was not lawful for the Jewish disciples of Christ to go to the Gentiles, how could they hear and receive Christ? If the Gentiles did not hear the gospel they could not believe and receive Christ.
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

In Acts 2:8 they were all JEWS

5Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.

6And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.

7They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?

8"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?

quote:
the proselytes were Gentiles....correct and they were saved on Pentecost ....

The Bible does not refer to proselytes as Gentiles.

Cornelius and his household were uncircumcised Gentiles who were considered by the Jews to be unclean (Acts 10:28); proselytes, on the other hand, were granted fellowship by the Jews (i.e., they were not unclean; cf. Acts 2:10; 13:43). Following the conversion of Cornelius and his household, “the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those of the circumcision contended with him, saying, ‘You went in to uncircumcised men and ate with them!’ ” (Acts 11:1-3)

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:

quote:
You don't believe in the Millennial Kingdom?
yes i believe in the Millennial Kingdom, Yahshua will be there too!

Yes He will! The King of the Kingdom!

Jesus’ kingdom would be established in the hearts of human beings who would be scattered among the political kingdoms of humankind.

This secret kingdom would not replace the messianic kingdom envisioned by the prophets. But the secret kingdom was the one that Jesus would establish here on earth at His first coming. The kingdom of power and glory would be established only when Jesus returned from heaven.

(From Every Teaching Of Jesus In The Bible by Larry Richards)

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Carol what is so terrible is that the Bearen Bible Society reject Yahshua's teaching
not to mention the other New Testament writers all under the direction of the Holy Spirit...

yes the B B Society have some good teaching but that which is wrong teaching makes them very, very dangerous!

No, becauseHElives, they don't

We do not believe that the four gospels have no real message for the church—Paul says that ALL Scripture is profitable. However, we do believe (because we hold to a literal historical interpretation of the Bible) that Christ's earthly ministry was in keeping with Israel's prophetic kingdom program (Matt. 10:5-6; 15:24).

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1011392439.html

John 3:16-18 (NASB)
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The word gospel means “good news,” so the gospel of Christ is the good news of His coming to provide forgiveness of sins for all who will believe (Colossians 1:14; Romans 10:9). Since the first man’s sin, mankind has been under the condemnation of God (Romans 5:12). Because everyone breaks God’s perfect law by committing sin (Romans 3:23), everyone is guilty (Romans 5:18). The punishment for the crime of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and then an eternity spent in a place of punishment (Revelation 20:15; Matthew 25:46).

The bad news that all are guilty of sin and condemned by God is countered by the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ. God, because of His love for the world, has made a way for man to be forgiven of their sins (John 3:16). He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to take the sins of mankind on Himself through death on a cross (1 Peter 2:24). In placing our sin on Christ, God ensured that all who will believe in the name of Jesus will be forgiven (Acts 10:43). Jesus’ resurrection guarantees the justification of all who believe (Romans 4:25).

Paul teaches:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (NASB)
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

The Berean Bible Society studies Paul, and Paul teaches the same gospel message as our Lord. So how can anyone say the BB Society rejects the teaching of our Lord as pertaining to salvation?