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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Eternal Security

‘…nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor. If one dear saint of God had perished, so might all; and then there is no gospel promise true, but the Bible is a lie, and there is nothing in it worth my acceptance… If I did not believe the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints, I think I should be of all men the most miserable, because I should lack any ground of comfort.’ (Charles Spurgeon)
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What it is: That once a lost sinner has put his/her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as the only means of salvation and has been justified from every charge, being made a partaker of the divine nature, then it is impossible for that person to ever be lost again.

What it isn’t: Eternal security doesn’t mean that anyone who attends church, or brings their life into accord with Christian teaching, or goes forward at a salvation meeting is forever saved. It is important to mention that this whole study is concerning those that have been truly born again. Many profess Jesus Christ but have never been saved. This whole study is based on the promises and work of God for those that have truly entered into His family.

I want to start this study on eternal security with a couple of questions that at face value may not seem to have much in common with the topic at hand. Here are the questions:

Why does the nation of Israel still exist, and why are they still in possession of their land?
The answers to these questions have a lot to do with eternal security because it shows the faithfulness of God to keep his word even when his chosen people are in a state of unbelief.

The Abrahamic Covenant

Israel still exists and is in possession of their land because God made an unconditional covenant with Abraham. In it, God promised Abraham that his descendants would become a great nation and that they would be given the land forever. (Gen 12:1-3, 13:14-17) The term in Hebrew for making a covenant is ‘to cut a covenant’. The corpse of an animal is cut in half and both parties making the covenant would pass through the two halves of the carcass. In the Abrahamic covenant God put Abraham into a deep sleep and passed through the pieces alone signifying that the fulfillment of the covenant rested entirely with Him! (Gen 15:6-21)

Because of this covenant, Abraham’s descendants are still in possession of the land today. They have been persecuted more than any other nation but they still exist because of God. You cannot point to their faith or love for God as reasons why God has preserved them because they have largely been in a state of unbelief, rejected His prophets, even rejecting His own Son. They exist because of God’s faithfulness to keep his promise. In showing what is going to happen to Israel, Paul declares ‘that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved… From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved; for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Rom 11:25-29)

Why is this important?

This is crucial because it shows that once an unconditional covenant has been made, God will not change his mind but will fulfill what He has promised. Paul’s confidence that Israel will be saved in the end was based on two things:

1) The fact that Israel is beloved for the sake of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob)

2) The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (meaning He will not change His mind.)

The New Covenant that a believer enters into is an unconditional covenant

It is God who has promised to keep our salvation safe and secure to the end. Has God called you? Have you been given the gift of the Holy Spirit? Then if so, believe in the faithfulness of God because the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable! He will not change His mind or go back on those He has called!

Four Passages Teaching Eternal Security

The following are four passages that I want to comment on concerning eternal security. There are far more than these, some of which have been mentioned at the end of this study.

Rom 8:30-39

Vs 30: ‘And those whom He predestined, He also called; and these He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.’

***Question: Who is the ‘He’?

Obviously it is God the Father who has done these things. That’s why we believe the salvation is from God. We don’t save ourselves. God saves us. This verse declares that God performs each stage of our salvation. It started before the foundation of the world (predestined…) and ends at the Second Coming.(glorified…). Our glorification is so assured that it is written in the past tense. Glorification is not earned but is an act of divine grace to those who believe. And it is assured because our life (the new creation) is hidden with Christ in God and is revealed when He comes in glory. Do you really think a true believer can lose his salvation when God has done all this to make it safe?

***Question: Going back to Rom 8:30, where in a passage like this could you even begin to talk about a true believer losing his salvation?

Nowhere, because it is God who completes each stage of our salvation. You see, it doesn’t even come down to what a person believes about predestination and election. Some believe that God specifically chose those that He would save, and this choice is totally independent of any action on the part of one chosen. Others believe that God, before the foundation of the world, simply saw those that would believe (because He is outside of time…) and chose them, knowing that they would have faith and live for Him. Either way, we can still be confident that the ones God has predestined, He will call. Those that He calls, He will justify. And those that He justifies, He will certainly glorify! The only question left would be that which Paul asks next – ‘What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us who can be against us?’

Vs 33 ‘Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.’

For a moment, let’s say you can lose your salvation. If this were true then obviously God would be the only one who could pass that decree. He is the judge of mankind. He is the one who declared you to be righteous in his sight so therefore he is the only one who could now declare you to be ‘lost’ again. Now do you really think that God is going to bring a charge against his elect? Of course not! He justified them knowing everything that they would ever do. Verse 33 states that God the Father will not do this. Will Jesus Christ bring a charge against a believer? Of course not! He died for them and now lives to intercede for them. Their salvation is secure because it is in Gods hands, not mans.

Vs 37-39 ‘For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is the climax of Paul’s doctrine of salvation. It comes at the end of Romans eight where he is summing up his message, the good news of salvation for those who believe.

***Question: What is there that is not included in the words ‘death’, ‘life’ or ‘things to come’ that could cause you to lose your salvation?

Nothing! He is trying to make it as clear as he can. There is nothing in this life that can separate us from God. There is nothing in the future that can cause us to be separated from God! Our current life can’t do it, our death can’t, and angels and demons can’t. There are no powers that can even come close because God is the author and perfecter of our salvation!

John 6:37-40

Vs 37-38 ‘All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.’

Verse 37 combines Gods sovereignty, mans responsibility, and eternal security for those who do come to Him. We can be assured that of all that the Father gives the Son, he will never cast them away.

***Question: What would have happened if Jesus didn’t complete the will of God?

For Jesus to be able to die on our behalf he had to be a spotless sacrificial offering to God. If at any stage he had not performed the will of God then that would be sin. Jesus had to be perfect in all that he said and did for his death to be accepted by God.

***Question: What was the will of God that he had to do?

Vs 39 ‘This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose none, but raise them up on the last day.’

The only place I can find where Jesus stated what the overall will of the Father was, is in this verse and it’s states that it is God’s will that Jesus loses none of those that the Father has given him!

***Question: Will Jesus ever fail to do God will?

Never! Otherwise no one could be saved. So to say that a truly born again believer can lose his salvation is equivalent to saying that Jesus has lost one of those that God has given him and thus has failed in completing the will of God! No No No No, No! A believer’s salvation is secure because it is Jesus who keeps them safe and loses none!

John 10:27-29

Vs 27 ‘My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.’

This whole discussion about eternal security is only directed towards those that have been born again. In this passage, Jesus calls them his ‘sheep’. He says that he knows them, and they in turn follow him. There are a lot of people out there that profess to be Christians who are not. They may join a church, be baptised, and perform good works but if they have never truly come to God for salvation through Jesus Christ then it will not help them. Jesus spoke of these people when he said ‘Many will say to me on that day, Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.’ By their very question they show themselves to be false sheep, for what truly born again believer would come into God’s presence and point to the things that they had so-called done for God? True sheep boast only in their shepherd and it is utter stupidity, when God is calling all to behold his Son, to tell God to behold your works!

***Question: What is the difference between these groups?

Of the first group he says ‘I know them’. Of the second group he says ‘I never knew you’. The difference is not about the works done but about truly being saved and having a relationship with the shepherd. Of the first group, those who are truly his sheep Jesus goes on to say:

Vs ‘…and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.’

***Question: When do you receive eternal life and how long does it last?

Eternal life is Gods life, whose nature is eternal. That’s why the bible declares that ‘God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life.’ 1John 5:11-12

Notice the past tense in ‘has given us’. You receive eternal life when you receive Jesus Christ because all things are in Him. And of course it never ends. It is eternal, as God is eternal. So to say that a true believer could lose his salvation would be to say that his eternal life has come to an end. Stupid. Jesus himself, who is our life, has promised us that he will ‘never leave us or forsake us.’ This is his promise to his true sheep. Likewise to say that a true believer could lose his salvation would be the same as saying that one of Jesus’ sheep has perished. But he has promised that his true sheep ‘will never perish’.

Vs 29 ‘My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Fathers hand.’

***Question: Even though no one can snatch a true believer out of Gods hand, they can choose to walk away right?

No. In terms of your salvation, you are not holding onto him; He is holding onto you. He holds you like you would hold someone hanging off a cliff. If their strength gives way and they can hold no longer, you still have them firmly in your grasp. And he would hold you like this even while you go through your period of insanity, wanting to walk away from him.

Hebrews 10

A lot of the problems that people have in accepting eternal security come from the fact that they don’t understand how fully Jesus dealt with the whole sin issue on the cross. They still have an Old Testament view of forgiveness. Hebrews 10 was written to show how ‘much better’ it is for those under the New Covenant.

Vs 1-3 ‘The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming, not the reality themselves. For this reason it can never by the same sacrifices repeated year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshippers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

***Question: From the above scripture what is the consequence of being made ‘perfect’?

If someone could have been made perfect then they would have one cleansing that was for all time. It would take all sins into account, past present and future. The person having been made perfect would no longer have to go around guilty (or conscious as the NASB puts it) of their sins.

***Question: Could living under the law do this?

No, because the sacrifices only dealt with sins previously committed but could in no way help sins that were to be committed in the future. Thus they had to be repeated endlessly year after year.

Vs 4 ‘But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.’

The people living under this system were never free because the very next day after the annual sacrifice they would sin again and straight away need another sacrifice. They were constantly guilty and aware of their sins. This also describes the condition of a believer who hasn’t come to realise the extent of Gods provision and grace in the sacrifice of His Son.

***Question: Has anybody ever been ‘made perfect’?

Vs 14 ‘For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.’

When a sinner is born again all sin is dealt with once and for all. It is not just the sins he has committed that are forgiven. It is all the sins he will ever commit that have been forgiven! When Jesus died on the cross all of our sins were in the future and He paid for them all. So much so that the Bible can now say that a believer has been (notice the past tense) made perfect, which, from verse 2 means that he has been cleansed once for all sin and no longer has to go around with a sense of guilt for them. And notice how long this position of the believer is said to last for – ‘made perfect forever’. Forever means eternally secure! Oh the grace of God!

Vs 17-18 ‘And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.’

***Question: Why is there no longer any sacrifice for sin?

Because there is no sin left to forgive. Simple. It has been dealt with once and for all. Notice the lengths that the writer of Hebrews goes to, to stress this point. (Ch 7:27, 9:12, 25-26, 28, 10:1-2, 10, 12, 14).

***Question: Does sin then affect our relationship with God?

Sin in the believer’s life can affect their daily relationship with God if it is not recognised as such and confessed to God (1 John 1.9). But in no way does this annul their position in God as being justified and declared perfect in his sight. This is where so many Christians get the cart before the horse thinking that their works give them a greater position in God.

Sanctification does not lead to justification! Justification leads on to sanctification!

Saying it another way, for a born again believer our practice does not alter our position in Christ. We are justified (a position where God declares you righteous in his sight) and sanctification (becoming more like Christ in our life) follows that. As outward example is in John 13:3-10. Peter was completely clean (vs 10) which speaks of justification, but as he walks in the world he needed to clean his feet as they would get dirty. As believers we are ‘completely clean’ as the Lord said, or ‘made perfect forever’ as Hebrews declares. As we walk in the world there is the need to clean our feet by coming to God and acknowledging our wrong ways.

Reactions when so-called followers walked away.

The bible presents cases where people have turned away from the Lord and abandoned the faith. How should we view such people? Still saved, never saved or not saved anymore? We will look at the reaction of Jesus, John, and Paul.

John 6 (Jesus)

Vs 41 ‘Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said ‘I am the bread that came down out of heaven’

Vs 60 ‘Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said. ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this…’

Vs 66 ‘As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.’

In John chapter 6 we have a progression of opposition to what Jesus was saying. Firstly the Jews in general opposed Him. Then those who were said to be His disciples grumbled, and finally they ‘withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.’

***Question: How did Jesus react to His own disciples leaving Him?

This is crucial. When His own disciples turned away from Him did he treat them as still saved, never saved, or no longer saved?

Vs 63 ‘It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh counts for nothing; the words I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.’

Vs 65 ‘For this reason I have said to you, that nobody can come to me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’

Jesus confirmed three things:

1) The Spirit is the one who imparts true spiritual life and without this people will not accept Jesus revelation concerning Himself. But the one who has received life will accept Jesus’ teaching because His words are spirit and are life.

2) That people may follow after Him for all sorts of fleshly reasons but in the end it counts for nothing. They are not saved and will fall away when hardship or persecution begins.

3) That for a person to be truly saved the Father himself must call him to His Son and that the people who were turning from Him showed that they had never been called or saved to begin with.

Jesus didn’t freak out by this opposition because He knew those that truly believed and of them declared that he would lose none! We are in a less fortunate position of not really knowing who has and who hasn’t been saved but the word is still true that those who are saved are eternally secure.

1 John 2:18-19 (John)

‘Children it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us.’

Here we have the reaction of John when people left the faith. They had been with them but had left. Did John react by saying that they had now lost their salvation? No. Johns reaction to this is to declare that they could not have been saved to begin with else they would not have left the faith.

2 Tim 2:17-19 (Paul)

‘…and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place and they upset the faith of some. Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His”, and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness..”

Paul’s reaction when these two characters had gone astray from the truth affirms how we are to look at salvation. He says that the foundation of God (or salvation) has this seal –

“The Lord knows those that are His.” This is how God views salvation and affirms eternal security. Jesus said he knows his sheep and they shall never perish. From Gods point of view, all of his children are safe and are eternally secure because he knows them and will never let them completely fall. The problem only comes with us because we cannot see the heart of a person or how true their faith is.

“Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.” This is mans view of salvation. This is what we should be able to see. We may not be able to see a person’s heart but we can see a changed life and the evidence of a true salvation will be a turning away from sin. If a person confesses Jesus Christ as Lord but has no fruit or evidence of that salvation in their life then what confidence is there that they are actually saved? None. (1John 3:10-11)

Other Verses Confirming Eternal Security

Apart from the verses already discussed, here are some other reasons why true sons of God are eternally secure:

1. They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus confirming that their salvation is finished and secure, and also that they are perfect in Christ already. (Eph 1:3, 2:6)

2. The Holy Spirit seals them as a mark of ownership and security until the day of redemption. Even grieving the Holy Spirit doesn’t cause Him to leave (Eph 1:13-14, 4:30)

3. The promise of God is that He would never leave or forsake his children. Likewise the Holy Spirit is promised to be with true believers forever. (Heb 13:5, John 14:16)

4. The penalty for all sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Rom 3:23-26, 4:23-5:2, 5:6-9)

5. They have been born again and they cannot be unborn, nor can the new creation perish because they have been born from imperishable seed. (! Pet 1:23)

6. The new creation is totally secure because it has been hid with Christ in God until Jesus comes in glory and his sons are revealed. (Col 3:1-4)

7. If a Christian’s life and work are completely burnt up at the judgement seat of Christ (that is, there was nothing that he did that was based upon the foundation of Jesus Christ) he himself is still saved yet with no rewards.(1 Cor 3: 15)

8. God who began the good work in them has promised that he will carry it on until the day when Jesus returns. They are called to ‘work out’, not ‘work for’ their salvation. (Phil 1:6, 2:12-13)

9. They stand before God clothed in the righteousness of Christ, not in their own righteousness. (2 Cor 5:21,Rom 5:19-21)

10. God, knowing everything that would happen, chose them before the foundation of the world and as such they are holy and blameless before Him. (Eph 1:4)

11. They are kept by the power of God through faith, and not through the efforts or the works of the one who is saved. (1 Pet 1:5)

12. Their inheritance is assured and is imperishable, kept in heaven for them. (1 Pet 1:2-4)

13. Jesus is able to save them completely because He lives to make intercession for them and He cannot die. (Heb 7:24-25)

14. Even though all their righteousness is as filthy rags, they have been saved (past tense, completed event) by grace (the unmerited favor of God) and not by their own works, so that even in the ages to come they may marvel at the surpassing riches of his grace! (Eph 2:6-9)

15. They are God the Father’s irrevocable gift to the Son and He never changes his mind about His gifts and callings. (John 17:6-7, Rom 11:29)

16. God has promised to keep them from falling and to present them faultless before Himself. (Jude 24, 1 Thes 5:23-24, 1 Cor 1:8-9 Note: Even though Paul had much to say about the gross sins that were happening in the Corinthian church, he still gave them the promise that God is faithful and would present them blameless on the day of Christ Jesus!)

Let me just end with another quote from Charles Spurgeon because I believe, as he did, that a knowledge of eternal security produces within the believer a love, amazement, and gratitude towards God that no fear of falling away could ever do.

‘No doctrine is so calculated to preserve a man from sin as the doctrine of the grace of God. Those who have called it ‘a licentious doctrine’ did not know anything at all about it. If they knew the grace of God in truth, they would soon see that there was no preservative from lying like knowledge that we are the elect of God from the foundation of the world. There is nothing like a belief in my eternal perseverance, and the immutability of my Father’s affection, which can keep me near to Him from a motive of simple gratitude… Of all men, those have the most disinterested piety, the sublimest reverence, the most ardent devotion, who believe that they are saved by grace, without works, through faith, and that not of themselves, it is the gift of God.

I Gordon
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/online/eternalsecurity.htm
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Eternal Security – Part 2

Some of those ‘but what about…’ passages!

The following are questions concerning passages that some like to use to support the view that a true born again can fall away and lose their salvation. Nearly all of these questions have been taken from emails sent in to the ‘Jesus Plus Nothing’ website. There is no doubt that there are passages in the Bible which are difficult to understand. Quite a few of the questions mentioned below, deal with passages that have been debated for centuries. They are debated because they are difficult! In the end however, there is no middle ground that can be taken as to whether a true born-again believer can lose their salvation. It is either ‘yes’ or it is ‘no’. Jesus is either able to keep us secure, or He isn’t. I have put these questions and answers together to form this study because I am sure that others have had these, or similar questions, in their mind. For those that are interested, I would also like to recommend two books by William MacDonald that have been very useful to me – Firstly his commentary on the entire Bible, the ‘Believers Bible Commentary’. And secondly a book on eternal security that he wrote called ‘Once in Christ, In Christ Forever’. Both of these books are very useful resources and they cover a much wider range of questions than could be expressed in this study.

Question 1: What does ‘falling away’ or ‘turning away’ mean to a saved person?

In looking up these verses again, I found it interesting that the term 'fall away' was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a 'falling away'. (see Matt 26:31-35) Obviously, this is not a loss of salvation. For the true believer it may involve a temporary period of backsliding or time of being out of fellowship with God. It is times when for one reason or another, the believer is having difficulty in his Christian walk. The believer would not however deny what they believe in their heart, even though their walk would not match what they believe. But note that even though Jesus said they would 'fall away', in the very same context, he also said to Peter that he had prayed that his faith would not fail and when he returned, to strengthen his brethren. (Luke 22:32) In other words, true believers may fall at times but their faith does not fail because Jesus intercedes for them. Concerning this intercession we are told 'hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him (true salvation), since He always lives to make intercession for them.' And when do true believers need Jesus' intercession more but when they are struggling? See also John 17:6-12 concerning this intercession by Jesus for His believers. In this ‘High Priestly’ prayer, Jesus makes it clear that the ones that God has given Him he keeps safe! See also Rom 8:32-34 where Jesus' intercession is used as one of the points to show that we cannot be separated from the love of Christ.

In contrast to this are several other passages which speak of apostasy. The first falling away is temporary and is in regard to their walk. For a true believer however, they will never deny their faith in the Lord Jesus. And, like the true prodigal son, they will return. Apostasy however, as mentioned in Heb 6:6 and 1 Tim 4:1 amongst other verses, speaks of a falling away from the faith - an abandonment of the faith and truth of the gospel. This is prophesied to increase greatly in the end times. As Heb 6:4-7 states this is done by those who very much look like they are genuine saved believers. They have known everything that is needed to be saved; they have felt the conviction and drawing of the Holy Spirit, maybe even seen other signs that enable them to make a genuine decision. They may even go along with Christian teaching for a while... but they become apostates... prodigal pigs who turn away from it all, deny the truth and go back to the mud.

Concerning apostasy (deliberately falling away and turning from the truth of the faith) William MacDonald writes in the Believers Bible Commentary - 'Apostasy is a sin which is only committed by unbelievers, not by those who are deceived, but by those who knowingly, and wilfully and maliciously turn from the truth... Apostasy should not be confused with backsliding. A true believer may wander very far from Christ. Through sin his fellowship with God is shattered. But he can be restored to full fellowship as he confesses and forsakes his sin.'

Titus 1:10-16 also talks of those that 'turn from the truth' calling them 'empty talkers and deceivers'... those who are 'defiled and unbelieving' and it says that they profess to know God but by their deeds they deny Him.' This is no sheep of God we are talking about here. More like a wolf!

Question 2: Are the people spoken of in 2 Peter 2, who had knowledge of Jesus and then left, true believers who have now lost their salvation?

J. Vernon McGee, a well loved Bible teacher, wrote about this passage, saying that that there are prodigal sons (Luke 15) and there are prodigal pigs! (2 Pet 2:22) The prodigal son gave up that which his father had for him and wasted it all through sinful living. But because he was a true son, he turned, repented and came back to his father. A prodigal pig on the other hand, is one who comes into church for a season, tries to tidy himself up, yet not being truly saved and still having the nature of a pig, his desire is to return to the mud from which he came and that is exactly what he does! A prodigal son may stupidly go into the world for a season, but in his heart he will never find rest and will long for, and return, home. Where as a prodigal pig may wash all the mud off, come into church, but in his heart he won’t find rest either, for the nature of a pig just loves mud and given time will return.

The people mentioned in 2 Peter 2:22 are prodigal pigs who do not have a true saving faith. We should also see the context that this whole passage is talking about. The whole chapter is concerning false teachers and false prophets. They ‘forsake the right way and go astray’, ‘revelling in their deceptions.’ Doesn’t sound like sheep to me!

Question 3: …I read the passage Hebrew 6:4-6. This has put a great fear in my heart for fear I will not be able to fully return and receive the Spirit in my life. Can you shed some light on this passage for me?

There are only three ways you can take a passage such as this.

It speaks of true Christians who fall away and lose their salvation. If that is true, then also notice that it is impossible for them to come back. (vs 6) You wrote in your question that this passage put ‘great fear in your heart that you would not be able to fully return and receive the Spirit in your life.’ Well, this passage goes further than that and says those who have fallen away, whoever they are, CANNOT come back.

It speaks of professing believers who are in fact, prodigal pigs. They are apostates. Those that have heard, seen, and tasted all that they need to be truly saved, but haven’t become born again Christians and still having the nature of a pig within them, wilfully turn their backs on it all and return to wallow in the mud!

It is a hypothetical argument since because it is impossible to fall away, the exhortation is given to urge the Christians on to more growth. My bible gives the following comparison for this type of view. It is similar to saying to a class of students ‘It is impossible for a student, once enrolled in this course, to turn the clock back (which cannot be done), to start the course over. Therefore let all students go on towards deeper knowledge.

To say that it is true Christians who have lost their salvation (as no 1 does) doesn’t line up with the promises in the rest of God’s word for God’s true sheep that salvation is secure (such as John 6:37-40, John 10:26-30, and Rom 8:33-39 especially in light of Rom 11:29 plus heaps of others). Nor does the fact that these people can’t repent (if they were true Christians) line up with other scriptures such as the prodigal son, 1 John 1:9 and the overall teaching of the New Testament. So I don’t believe point 1.

Point 3 doesn’t really make sense to me (it being a hypothetical argument) as the whole passage seems to be giving a clear warning to someone! Its just who is the warning for?

Point 2 is what I believe, and here is why.

(vs 1-3) Firstly, at the start of the chapter, it talks about going on to maturity. Then in verse 3 it says, ‘and this we will do if God permits.’ So straight away it is showing the possibility that there may be some that God does not permit to go on. Whoever they are… The next verse speaks about those who God does not permit to go on because it starts with ‘for in the case of those who once have been…’ Now God will permit anyone to go on who desires to, but these people don’t desire to, but have rejected it all! And having hardened their heart and become proud they now openly reject Christ. In other words – apostates! God opposes them because in their pride they wilfully oppose Him. But don’t ever think that there are some who truly desire to come close to God whom he won’t allow.

(vs 4-8) Now you probably think that they must have been true Christians for it says they were enlightened, tasted the word of God, and had partook of the Holy Spirit. But all these words can still be true the unsaved individual who has come to a knowledge of the truth, seen the power of the Holy Spirit, and felt the convicting and drawing of the Holy Spirit in their life. Judas was an extreme example of this. He knew all there was to know having followed Jesus for three years. He had experienced the Holy Spirit’s power having been among the twelve sent out, two by two, to cast out demons and heal the sick. Yet he was never truly saved! Jesus own testimony about him confirms that he was not a true sheep that would be kept safe to the end. (John 17:11-12, John 13:18) None of the key words for truly saved individuals such as ‘saving faith’, ‘eternal life’, ‘born again’, ‘redeemed by his blood’, ’saved’, ’salvation’ are used in this passage. In ‘Hebrews verse by verse’, William Newell quotes R.A Torrey on this passage saying ‘there is a quickening short of regeneration’. In other words, this passage speaks of the work of the Holy Spirit within the lives of these people that occurs before and leading up to salvation. But these people do not receive salvation, and openly rejecting it, they go back to the mud even if for a while they looked like the real thing!


(vs 9-10) Greater evidence of the fact that these people were not saved is given in verse 9. Things change in this verse, for now He is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that accompany SALVATION. In other words, the people he was talking about in verses 4-8 didn’t have salvation (and their open rejection testifies to this as well). But he has confidence in the beloved because they are saved! And this will show in their life through their perseverance.

In the Believers Bible Commentary, William MacDonald writes

‘Some earnest Christians are troubled when they read Hebrews 6 and similar passages. Satan uses these verses especially to unsettle believers who are having physical, mental, or emotional difficulties. They fear that they have fallen away from Christ and that there is no hope of restoration. They worry that they have drifted beyond redemption’s point. The fact that they are concerned about it is conclusive evidence that they are not apostates! An apostate would never have any such fears; he would brazenly repudiate Christ. If this sin of apostasy does not apply to believers, to whom then does it apply? It applies, for instance, to a young man who makes a profession of faith in Christ, but then something happens in his life. Perhaps he falls into gross immorality. Or perhaps he goes off to college and is shaken by the anti-Christian arguments of atheistic teachers. With full knowledge of the truth, he deliberately turns away from it, completely renouncing Christ, and viciously tramples on every sacred fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith. The Bible says it is impossible to restore such a one to repentance.’

Question 4: What about Hebrews 10:25-30? What is the ‘wilful sin’ mentioned and is this a loss of salvation?

Heb 10:25-30 is basically a parallel passage to the Heb 6 passage previously mentioned. We should always remember that Hebrews was written to Hebrews – that is, Jewish believers in the first century. That doesn’t make it irrelevant for us, but we should at least read it in its first century context. For a Jew to become a Christian in the first century (and now!) basically meant the death sentence as far as their relationship with their family was concerned. They lost any right to an inheritance and came under extreme pressure (including physical persecution) to leave Christ and go back to Judaism. And that is what many did, even though for a while they looked like true believers. Read Heb 10:25-30 with this in mind. The wilful sin mentioned in verse 26 is linked to the verse before it because it starts with ‘for if..’. The verse before it is speaking of leaving the assembly of believers. The wilful sin that this passage talks about is leaving Christ and going back to Judaism, which was happening. Under Judaism, and what they were going back to, there no longer remained a sacrifice for sin (vs 26) (because God didn’t accept animal sacrifices anymore after Jesus had died for all sin, for all time.) But only judgement could be expected (vs 27 – it is also interesting that Hebrews was written only a couple of years before the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, and the whole Jewish sacrificial system in 70AD by the Romans. Some believe the judgements warned about in the book of Hebrews were speaking of this event.) They had trampled the Son of God underfoot because they had said that His death wasn’t enough or didn’t mean anything and they would carry on with their Jewish sacrifices. This also is how you insult the Spirit of grace. You don’t insult the Spirit of grace by seeing your great need of grace. But you do insult the Spirit of grace when you wilfully turn your back on that grace and go ahead with your own laws and works as an effort to have your own righteousness and means of salvation under the old Jewish laws and sacrificial system.

Like I said at the start, this passage is a parallel passage to Hebrews 6, speaking of the apostasy of those who give up their profession of faith in Christ. The warning is given of what will happen to those that do this. But like the passage in chapter 6, the writer of Hebrews doesn’t leave true believers with this thought of judgement. In chapter 6, at the end of the warning he wrote: ‘But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you (the true believers), things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.’ After the warning in chapter 10, the writer gives the same encouragement to true believers when he writes: ‘But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction (the professing believers who became apostate), but of those who have faith (true believers) to the preserving of the soul.’

Question 5: What does this mean, "Who ever has will be given more and who has not what little he has will be taken away?"

Jesus used this phrase a few times and its meaning should be read in keeping with its context. For instance, in Matt 13:11-12 it is saying that to those who have faith in Jesus (like the disciples He was talking to at the time), more light (in this case the knowledge of the parables) will be given. Where as those who don't believe (like the religious leaders He had previously been speaking to) not only will they not get anymore light, but what they have will be taken away. Hence Jesus spoke in parables so that only His true disciples would understand.

It is also used in Matt 25:29. All of Matt 25 is speaking of the judgement that will occur when Jesus returns to set up His kingdom at the end of the tribulation. All of these illustrations (the virgins, the talents, sheep and goats) are used to express what Jesus had mentioned earlier in his parables. ie that the wheat and the tares will grow together right up until the time of the harvest (the end of the age). The wheat has been planted by the Lord. The tares have been planted by Satan in the same field. There is no real separation of them until the end. So in many cases there are the false and the true within the same field. They may even look similar. See Matt 13:37-43. There will be a separation of the true and the false at the return of Jesus for His bride, and also when He returns to earth to set up His Kingdom. Matt 25, in all its different forms, shows the separation of the true believers from the false, with the false thrown into Hell. In the parable of the talents, there is a false servant. He calls Jesus 'a hard man'. He had been given abilities but had chosen not to use them. The abilities he had, and the freedom to exercise his will, would now be taken from him. He would be thrown into hell and in doing so 'the little that he had (the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance with that salvation) would be taken away'. The true servants however showed the reality of their living faith in using their abilities wisely and were rewarded by entrance into the Kingdom. Whoever has (true faith) will be given more (entrance into the kingdom!)

Question 6: What does it mean that a branch that doesn’t bare fruit will be cast into the fire? Does that refer to a saved person that does nothing for Christ like witnessing or being active in serving Christ?

There are at least three common, yet different interpretations that are given of this difficult verse.

1. It speaks of a saved person who has lost their salvation and is thrown into Hell.

2. It speaks of a professing Christian who, while they look like they have saving faith, prove by their life that this is not the case, and are thrown into Hell.

3. It speaks of the works of unfruitful true believers whose works are burned at the judgement seat of Christ. They themselves are saved ‘but as by fire’.

My own personal view would be the second point. I don't believe the first point as 1 Cor 3:15 clearly states that for a true believer, even if their work is burned up (ie no fruit) they are still saved, but as one who just escapes through the fire. They are in Heaven, but they have no rewards. And one scripture never contradicts another. For me, the language of the verse makes it hard to believe point 3. I believe that Judas is given to us as an example of those who look very much like they are true followers of Christ, and in the vine, but they show by not abiding in Jesus that that is not the case. Jesus made it clear that Judas was not one of the ones whom He had kept safe and guarded (John 17:12, 13:18), and he wasn’t a true believer. He had different motives (as a lot of 'converts' do today) in following Jesus.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary says of this passage -

vs 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He cuts off. The phrase “in Me” does not mean the same thing as Paul’s words “in Christ.” Here it is part of the metaphor of the Vine and seems to mean, “every person who professes to be My disciple (a branch) is not necessarily a true follower.” A branch that bears no fruit is obviously dead. Therefore, like Judas, it is cut off.

Question 7: In the parable of the sower the last seed that is thrown on good soil, is that the only group that is saved?

I don't believe the primary purpose of the parable was to give a definition of who is saved. It was intended to show what leads to fruitfulness. Having said that, we can speculate of course and scripture certainly gives us clues. The first group, who had the word snatched away are said to have not come to salvation at all. (Luke 8:12) Of the second group, who 'believe' for a while, wouldn't be saved. They probably responded out of the wrong motives and when hardship comes they are out of there! I'll say more on this in the 'Hells best kept secret' question. The third group is where it gets trickier. In real life you can’t just fit everyone into a nice little box. For instance, this third group believed and started to grow. The thorns, which are the worries of this life, and other worldly things, slowly grew up and choked the fruitfulness of this plant. This is a slow process of choking. Would I say this group was saved? Yes and no. In real life this group would contain real believers I believe. All of us are in a battle to not allow the things of this world to choke our fruitfulness for God. I can definitely say that I battle with this all the time. Sometimes it has very little hold on me, and at others I find myself caring about the worries and pleasures of this world. That is why I said that the purpose of this parable is not really about who is and who isn't saved. It’s about what leads to fruitfulness for God's kingdom.

Question 8: What if a person continues to fail the test we are given?

Not quite sure which test you are talking about. Jesus spoke of knowing the wolves in sheep’s clothing by their fruit. Other passages, such as some of Paul’s letters tell us to discern the true from the false by what a person teaches. 1 John also gives a test of genuine believers (because there were many apostates around at that stage as well!) Obviously there should be outward signs of the new creation which true believers are in Christ. 1 John 3:10 speaks of love and righteousness as signs of true faith. He also shows that deserting the faith (completely) is a sign that they were never of the faith to begin with!

1 John 2:19 ‘They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.’

If a 'believer' continued to fail these tests I would agree with John that they hadn't been saved to begin with. But we should be careful not to shoot our own wounded!

Question 9: "Faith with out works is dead..." What is dead faith to someone who is saved?

By its very definition, someone who is saved cannot have 'dead faith'! If their faith has saved them then it is alive! James is speaking about mere belief (as indicated in verse 2:19), not a true saving faith. Someone may have a belief, or head knowledge that certain facts are true without giving themselves over to that belief. I may believe that a branch would hold me, but faith is walking out on the branch. In an extreme example, even Satanists may believe that Jesus is God, but they don't have any intention of submitting themselves to Him! A true faith submits itself to that belief and this will result in action down the track as James says. Abraham is the example of this used by both Paul and James. God spoke to Abraham and said that He would make Abraham’s descendants like the stars. From a natural point of view this was impossible as Sarah was well past the point of being able to bear a child. But Abraham place his faith in what God had said and this was accredited to him as righteousness. This is the part Paul emphasises the most. Salvation by grace, through faith and definitely not by works! James emphasises the second part of it in that Abraham, some time later, proved the validity of his faith by his willingness to offer his son Isaac up as a sacrifice. Works are the result of a genuine salvation, not the means of obtaining it.

Question 10: In "Hell's Best Kept Secret" by Ray Comfort he gives an illustration of a man on an airplane. The first man is told that if he puts on the parachute his ride would be better. After a while, when others are laughing and he realizes it doesn’t make it better at all, he takes it off. Does this mean someone can get saved then decide they don’t want to be saved?

Nope. I have enjoyed Ray Comforts books and I know that this is not what he is saying. He used this illustration to show the stupidity of our evangelistic methods. He is saying that we invite people to come to Jesus because it will make your life easy and so they do! Then when they find that it isn't easy they give up their belief! But what did they give up? Not a true faith but a ‘belief’ in a stupid gospel invitation that makes Jesus not to be Lord or Saviour but some kind of Father Christmas! They have placed their 'faith' in a much distorted truth that doesn't prove true. These 'converts' are the shallow soil converts spoken of in the parable of the sower. They are shallow because they have no conviction of sin, and no real awareness of their need of a saviour. They just 'try' Jesus just as easy as they would 'try' something else. When difficulty comes the shallowness of their root gives them away because they are not seen anymore. The focus of Ray Comforts books is to use the law in evangelism to convict the sinner of their sin. Once they see their sin, it doesn't take long for them to look for a saviour and true faith results! Even in 'Hells Best kept Secret', in a chapter called 'Who are the backsliders?', Ray Comfort writes

'A genuine conversion will stand no matter how great the adversity. "Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down" Psalm 37:24'

And to that quote I would add the rest of that verse, as it tells us why the true believer is never utterly cast down - "Because the Lord is the one who holds his hand."

I Gordon
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/online/eternalsecurity2.htm
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Quote from Sister Carols post:
"Jesus is either able to keep us secure, or He isn’t"

This should never be a question in the mind of a Christian.......certainly He is able.

Jesus sounds off warnings in various places throughout the New testament. Is that not part of His intercessory work to keep us in fellowship with God?

Carol, please tell me..........Dont you think that if it were possible for a Christian to fall away that it would most likely be as a result of ignoring Jesus warnings to the church/disciples? and certainly not because Jesus does not have the ability to keep and protect us from Satan.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Brother Daniel states & quoted Sister Carol:


quote:
Quote from Sister Carols post:
"Jesus is either able to keep us secure, or He isn’t"

This should never be a question in the mind of a Christian.......certainly He is able.

Jesus sounds off warnings in various places throughout the New testament. Is that not part of His intercessory work to keep us in fellowship with God?

Carol, please tell me..........Dont you think that if it were possible for a Christian to fall away that it would most likely be as a result of ignoring Jesus warnings to the church/disciples? and certainly not because Jesus does not have the ability to keep and protect us from Satan.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Absolutely my brother Daniel!


[thumbsup2]

[dance] [dance] [dance] [dance] [dance]
[hug]
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
oneinchrist

quote:
Carol, please tell me..........Dont you think that if it were possible for a Christian to fall away that it would most likely be as a result of ignoring Jesus warnings to the church/disciples? and certainly not because Jesus does not have the ability to keep and protect us from Satan.
In part 2 of the OP, question 1 provides answers to falling away.

The beginning of the OP says

quote:
What it isn’t: Eternal security doesn’t mean that anyone who attends church, or brings their life into accord with Christian teaching, or goes forward at a salvation meeting is forever saved. It is important to mention that this whole study is concerning those that have been truly born again. Many profess Jesus Christ but have never been saved. This whole study is based on the promises and work of God for those that have truly entered into His family.
A person who is truly born again is indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ. It would be impossible for him to reject Christ.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
sister Carol states:

quote:
The beginning of the Op says


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What it isn’t: Eternal security doesn’t mean that anyone who attends church, or brings their life into accord with Christian teaching, or goes forward at a salvation meeting is forever saved. It is important to mention that this whole study is concerning those that have been truly born again. Many profess Jesus Christ but have never been saved. This whole study is based on the promises and work of God for those that have truly entered into His family.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A person who is truly born again is indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ. It would be impossible for him to reject Christ.

Also, in Part 2, please read Question 1 and its answers.

Esp. this part:


quote:
A person who is truly born again is indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ. It would be impossible for him to reject Christ
This part is NOT supporyted by scripture....The part where it states would be impossible to reject Christ...

The first part of the quote is true..not everyone who claims to be "born again" is born again!
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
It doesn't say a person who claims to be...

It says a person who is TRULY born again.

How could the Holy Spirit of Christ reject Christ?


John 6:39-40 (NASB)
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Sister carol states"

quote:
It doesn't say a person who claims to be...

It says a person who is TRULY born again.

How could the Holy Spirit of Christ reject Christ?

You know after days and days of posts and hours and hours of debate...

A person can REJECT Christ and walk away from salvation.... Go Back and read the myriads of posts on OSAS.....
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Well, barry, maybe you can reject Christ. But the Spirit within you should be telling you otherwise.

What is the significance of the sealing of the Holy Spirit? For one thing, it speaks of a finished transaction. Even today, when important legal documents are processed, they are stamped with the official seal to signify the completion of the transaction. This sealing also implies ownership: God has put his seal on us because He has purchased us to be His own (1 Cor. 6:19-20). It also means security and protection. The Roman seal on the tomb of Jesus carried this meaning (Matt. 27:62-66). So, the believer belongs to God, and is safe and protected because he is a part of a finished transaction. According to John 14:16-17, the Holy Spirit abides with the believer forever. It is possible for us to grieve the Spirit and thereby lose the blessings of His ministry (Eph. 4:30). But He doesn’t leave us.

Another use for the seal is as a mark of authenticity. Just as a signature on a letter attests to the genuineness of the document, so the presence of the Spirit proves the believer is genuine. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His” (Rom. 8:9). It is not simply our lip profession, our religious activity, or our good works, but the witness of the Spirit that makes our profession authentic.

(Wiersbe)
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
I don't see "disinheritor of saints" on this list. Nothing can seperate us from the love of Christ. (Romans 8:38-39) That means nothing can.

Titles And Names Of Christ

Abraham’s Seed (Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:16).
Advocate (1 John 2:1).
Almighty (Revelation 1:8).
Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 22:13).
Amen (Revelation 3:14).
Angel (Genesis 48:16; Exodus 23:20,21).
Angel of God’s presence (Isaiah 63:9).
Angel of the Lord (Exodus 3:2; Judges 13:15-22).
Apostle (Hebrews 3:1).
Arm of the Lord (Isaiah 51:9; 53:1).
Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).
Author of eternal salvation (Hebrews 5:9).
Beginning of the creation of God (Revelation 3:14).
Beloved (Ephesians 1:6).
Beloved Son (Matthew 12:18).
Blessed and only Potentate (1 Timothy 6:15).
Branch (Jeremiah 23:5; Zechariah 3:8; 6:12).
Bread of Life (John 6:35, 48).
Bridegroom (Matthew 9:15).
Bright and Morning Star (Revelation 22:16).
Captain of Salvation (Hebrews 2:10).
Captain of the Lord’s hosts (Joshua 5:14,15).
Carpenter (Mark 6:3).
Carpenter’s Son (Matthew 13:55).
Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6).
Chief Shepherd (1 Peter 5:4).
Christ (Matthew 16:20; Mark 14:16; Luke 23:2).
Christ Jesus (Acts 19:4; Romans 3:24; 8:1; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1:30).
Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:39; 1 Timothy 1:12).
Christ of God (Luke 9:20).
Christ the Lord (Luke 2:11).
Commander (Isaiah 55:4).
Consolation of Israel (Luke 2:25).
Cornerstone (Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20).
Counselor (Isaiah 9:6).
Creator (John 1:3).
David (Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:23).
Dayspring (Luke 1:78).
Deliverer (Romans 11:26).
Desire of all nations (Haggai 2:7).
Door (John 10:7).
Elect of God (Isaiah 42:1).
Eternal life (1 John 1:2; 5:20).
Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6).
Faithful and True (Revelation 19:11).
Faithful witness (Revelation 1:5; 3:14).
First and Last (Revelation 1:17; 2:8).
Firstborn (Psalms 89:27; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 1:5).
Forerunner (Hebrews 6:20).
Fountain (Zechariah 13:1).
Glory of the Lord (Isaiah 40:5).
God (Isaiah 40:9; John 20:28).
God blessed forever (Romans 9:5).
God’s fellow (Zechariah 13:7).
Good Shepherd (John 10:14).
Governor (Matthew 2:6).
Great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14).
Head of the Church (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18).
Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2).
High Priest (Hebrews 4:14).
Holy Child (Acts 4:27).
Holy One (Psalms 16:10, with Acts 2:27; 3:14).
Holy One of God (Mark 1:24).
Holy One of Israel (Isaiah 41:14; 54:5).
Horn of salvation (Luke 1:69).
I AM, (Exodus 3:14, with John 8:58).
Image of God (2 Corinthians 4:4).
Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
Jesus (Matthew 1:21; 1 Thessalonians 1:10).
Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:1).
Jesus of Nazareth (Matthew 21:11; Mark 1:24; Luke 24:19).
Judge (Acts 10:42; 2 Timothy 4:8).
Judge of Israel (Micah 5:1).
Just One (Acts 7:52; 22:14).
King (Zechariah 9:9, with Matthew 21:5).
King of Glory (Psalms 24:7-10).
King of Israel (John 1:49).
King of Kings (1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 17:14).
King of peace (Hebrews 7:2).
King of righteousness (Hebrews 7:2).
King of Saints (Revelation 15:3).
King of Salem (Hebrews 7:1).
King of the Jews (Matthew 2:2; 27:37; John 19:19).
King of Zion (Matthew 21:25).
Lamb (Revelation 5:6, 12; 13:8; 21:22; 22:3).
Lamb of God (John 1:29, 36).
Lawgiver (Isaiah 33:22).
Leader (Isaiah 55:4).
Life (John 14:6; Colossians 3:4; 1 John 1:2).
Light of the world (John 1:8; 8:12).
Lily of the valleys (Song of Solomon 2:1).
Lion of the tribe of Judah (Revelation 5:5).
Living Bread (John 6:51).
Living Stone (1 Peter 2:4).
Lord and Savior (2 Peter 1:11; 3:18).
Lord Christ (Colossians 3:24).
Lord God Almighty (Revelation 15:3).
Lord God of the holy prophets (Revelation 22:6).
Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59; Colossians 3:17).
Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17; 16:31; 20:21).
Lord of all (Acts 10:36).
Lord of glory (1 Corinthians 2:8; James 2:1).
Lord of Hosts (Isaiah 44:6).
Lord of Lords (1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 17:14; 19:16).
Lord our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6; 33:16).
Man of Sorrows (Isaiah 53:3).
Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5).
Messenger of the covenant (Malachi 3:1).
Messiah (Daniel 9:25; John 1:41).
Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6).
Mighty One of Israel (Isaiah 30:29).
Mighty One of Jacob (Isaiah 49:26; 60:16).
Morningstar (Revelation 22:16; 2 Peter 1:19).
Most Holy (Daniel 9:24).
Nazarene (Matthew 2:23).
Offspring of David (Revelation 22:16).
Only Begotten Son (John 1:18).
Only Begotten (John 1:14).
Our Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7).
Potentate (1 Timothy 6:15).
Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).
Prince (Acts 5:31).
Prince of life (Acts 3:15).
Prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6).
Prince of the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5).
Prophet (Matthew 21:11; Luke 24:19; John 7:40).
Rabbi (John 1:49).
Rabboni (John 20:16).
Ransom (1 Timothy 2:6).
Redeemer (Job 19:25; Isaiah 59:20; Isaiah 60:16).
Resurrection and life (John 11:25).
Rock (1 Corinthians 10:4).
Rock of Offence (1 Peter 2:8).
Root of David (Revelation 5:5; 22:16).
Root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:10).
Rose of Sharon (Song of Solomon 2:1).
Ruler of Israel (Micah 5:2).
Savior (Luke 2:11; 2 Peter 2:20; 3:18).
Savior of the Body (Ephesians 5:23).
Sceptre (Numbers 24:17).
Second Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45).
Second Man (1 Corinthians 15:47).
Seed of David (2 Timothy 2:8).
Seed of woman (Genesis 3:15).
Servant (Isaiah 42:1; 52:13; 53:11; Acts 4:30).
Servant of Rulers (Isaiah 49:7).
Shepherd (Mark 14:27).
Shepherd and Overseer of Souls (1 Peter 2:25).
Shepherd of Israel (Psalms 80:1).
Shiloh (Genesis 49:10).
Son of David (Matthew 9:27).
Son of God (Luke 1:35; John 1:49).
Son of Joseph (John 6:42).
Son of man (John 5:27).
Son of the Blessed (Mark 14:61).
Son of the Father (2 John 1:3).
Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32).
Star (Numbers 24:17).
Stone of Stumbling (1 Peter 2:8).
Sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2).
Sure Foundation (Isaiah 28:16).
Surety (Hebrews 7:22).
Teacher (Matthew 23:8; John 3:2).
Tender Plant (Isaiah 53:2).
True God (1 John 5:20).
True Light (John 1:9).
True Vine (John 15:1).
Truth (John 14:6).
Vine (John 15:1).
Way (John 14:6).
Wisdom (Proverbs 8:12).
Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).
Witness (Isaiah 55:4; Revelation 1:5).
Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6).
Word (John 1:1; 1 John 5:7).
Word of God (Revelation 19:13).
Word of Life (1 John 1:1).
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Sister Carols post stated:

"But He doesnt leave us"

My question:But isnt it true that the scriptures show that we can leave Him?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end,

Sister Carol, if it is not possible for us to depart from the faith...........how then would you interpret the above verses?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Sister Carols post stated:

"But He doesnt leave us"

My question:But isnt it true that the scriptures show that we can leave Him?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end,

Sister Carol, if it is not possible for us to depart from the faith...........how then would you interpret the above verses?

With love in Christ, Daniel

One more time for U and berry...

Hebrews 10:23-29

Introduction

Hebrews chapter 10 is in many cases a battlefield for the believers. You choose your side and prepare to battle. Someone gives you your ammunition ahead of time so that you don’t have to think much on your own or consider all of the options.

As you are standing on your interpretation someone from the other side fires a shot and puts a hole in your doctrine. What to do now? Do you throw out everything? Probably not….many times it is God himself firing a shot to help you get Bible Doctrine instead of yours. In this study we will TRY to look at this openly.


If salvation can be lost then it was never based on a finished work. Jesus Christ said “It is Finished”. If your salvation is not finished then it is not based on the redeeming work of Christ.

The book of Hebrews was written by Paul and if he wrote in Hebrews that you could lose your salvation then he has brought a curse on himself (Galatians1:9), because he writes all through his epistles about eternal life.

The verses state that if a willful sin is committed by these people that there is no more sacrifice for sins. If this is a saved person then it sounds like the wilfull sins will not be paid for and will be accounted for at the Judgment Seat of Christ. No forgiveness is available between here and there.

Sounds like in verse 29 that this person was sanctified and now they are in danger of judgment.
before we get into the passage let us look at several introductory remarks.

Who Was It Written To

The title of the book says “The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews”. Hebrews1:1 talks about God speaking to the fathers by the prophets, who had fathers and prophets? Hebrews chapter 3 spends time dealing with the fact that Christ is better than Moses. Hebrews chapter 7 talks about the fact that Christ was of a better priestly line than the Levites. Chapters 8 and 9 of Hebrews deal with a better covenant. Hebrews chapter 11 deals with the faith of people who are all a part of the history of Israel.

from the evidence above, we would have to say that this book was written to the Jewish people. This does not mean that we should discard the book of Hebrews or any other Jewish epistles. The book is not written to us, but it is written for us (2 Timothy 3:16).

What Was the Purpose of the Letter?

The book of Hebrews contains the word “better” thirteen times. Christ is better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4), he brought in a better hope than the law (Hebrews 7:19), he was made surety of a better testament (Hebrews 7:22), he is the mediator of a better covenant (Hebrews 8:6), and he was a better sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23).

The book of Hebrews was written to the Jewish people in order to prove that Jesus Christ was “better” than Judaism.

The Time

In order to rightly divide the word of God, we must consider several things. When was the book written, who was it written to, and what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written? We have already discussed who the book was written to, but let us now look at when it was written.

The book of Hebrews was written nearly 30 years after the death of Christ. The temple was still standing and in operation (Hebrews 13:10-11). Jewish people were persecuted when they accepted Christ (Hebrews 10:32), for many Jews were still zealous over the law (Acts 21:20). Many Jewish people were still living under the banner of Judaism and to accept Christ was to reject Judaism.

The Passage

Now we will look at the question, “what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written?”

Verse 23

In verse 23, the Apostle Paul says, “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)”. First notice the word “profession”. A profession is not always true (Romans 1:22). Salvation is not based on our profession, but rather on a belief with the heart and confession of the mouth (Romans 10:9-10). Confession is agreeing with God, for example, when you confess your sins you are agreeing with God against your sins. The Apostle Paul warns the Hebrews not to waver from their profession.

Verses 24-25

These verses were written to exhort the Hebrews to meet together for worship and provoke one another to good works. The early church met often, and one reason was probably to strengthen and encourage each other in times of persecution.

Verses 26-27

Here we have one of the favorite verses of the Armenians, but remember the context of the book of Hebrews. Paul writes, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

Notice three things about this passage.

The sin was done on purpose (willfully). One point to make here is that if this is loss of salvation then we’ve all lost it. You say well I haven’t murdered anyone or committed adultery, but that is not what the verse says. The verse says willful sin. That is anything done knowingly that was unrighteous. Have you lied lately? Probably just a white lie….Have you not done something this week that you knew you should have done (James 4:17)
This person has received the knowledge of the truth.
If this proves that these people were saved then we have some problems.
Were all of the religious leaders saved? According to John 3:2 they knew that Jesus came from God. They had received the knowledge of the truth, but they didn’t all get saved.
The devils time and time again called Jesus the Son of God. Were they saved? No, but they sure did have knowledge of the truth.
So we see that knowledge of the truth in itself merits nothing, but faith in a person is what receives salvation.
After this sin there is no more sacrifice for sin. Keep in mind this is written to the Jewish people. What sin is it when done on purpose, allows no more sacrifice for sins?
Let us look at a scenario. A Jewish boy is born about the time of Christ’s death. He was raised to go to Jerusalem three times a year to appear before the Lord (Exodus 23:14,17; Deuteronomy 16:16). He went through all of the ceremonies and went to the schools of the Hebrews. He was taught to look for the coming of the Messiah, that He would come as a King to deliver His people. Then at about the age of 30, this young man hears a message preached that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that He died for the sins of the whole world. This young man learns more and more about the life of Christ, and begins to compare it with the law and the prophets. God opens his eyes to the fact that Christ was in fact the Messiah and that he must receive Christ by faith. Up to this point he like the apostle Paul has been zealous for God in the law, but now he has “received the knowledge of the truth”. If he receives Christ, then he will be persecuted greatly and his family will probably have a funeral for him and count him as dead. The fear of persecution drives him to “wilfully” reject Christ and return to Judaism. God says to this young man, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”. A spotless lamb or any other sacrifice will no longer hold off the wrath of God, the young man has seen God’s sacrifice. This young man will die and face judgment and fiery indignation, because he rejects God’s sacrifice.

Rejecting Christ is the only sin in this age that will send a man to hell.

Verses 28-29

In verses 28 and 29 Paul writes, “He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” Under the law, the punishment of sin against the commandments in many cases meant death. All it took was the witness of two or three.

According to Hebrews, God hath in these last days spoken unto us by His son. God has three witnesses (1 John 5:7-8). The “sorer punishment” will be poured out on those who “wilfully” reject the Son of God.

Notice in verse 28 that this person has “trodden under foot” the Son of God. When Moses told the children of Israel to put the blood on the side posts and lintel, he said nothing of putting the blood on the floor. In a sense those people were spared by going into the house through or under the blood. To be saved we must go through or under the blood, but this man has lowered the blood and has “trodden under foot”.

Notice next the phrase “wherewith he was sanctified”. The word “sanctified” means to be set apart in holiness. If the word “sanctified” simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture. Remember that the idea of Hebrews is that Jesus Christ is better. Some would say that the person sanctified is the same person who has counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, but look again. Jesus Christ’s blood sanctified himself. The blood set Him apart from bulls, goats, and all other blood either before or after.

Next notice the phrase “despite unto the Spirit of grace.” What this person has done has insulted the spirit of grace. We are saved by grace, and when someone turns from the free offer of salvation to Judaism or any other religion it is a disgrace to the spirit of grace.

Conclusion

In closing we will add evidence that Paul is not talking about the believers backsliding and losing their salvation. In verse 39 Paul says, “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Paul says I’m not talking about us because we have believed to the saving of our soul. These difficult verses when taken in context make more sense and prove once again that the book of Hebrews is about the fact that Jesus Christ is better.

(Forwarded from Ray, Andrew)
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Don't call me Sister Carol. It makes me sound like a nun.

oneinChrist, do you want to leave Him?

quote:
Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.

Does an evil heart of unbelief sound like a true believer to you?

All this talk of rejecting Him and leaving Him is making me wonder if He is really in the hearts of people who say such things. I mean, if your heart is truly full of Christ, not rules and fears and warnings, but Christ, then you would not say a true believer could ever reject Him or leave Him. You would know it isn't possible.

Hebrews 3

When a person has an erring heart and a disbelieving heart, the result will also be a hard heart. This is a heart that is insensitive to the Word and work of God. So hard was the heart of Israel that the people even wanted to return to Egypt! Imagine wanting to exchange their freedom under God for slavery in Egypt! Of course, all this history spoke to the hearts of the readers of this letter [Hebrews] because they were in danger of “going back” themselves.

God’s judgment fell on Israel in the wilderness at Kadesh Barnea. That entire generation was condemned to die, and only the new generation would enter the land. God said, “They shall not enter into My rest” (Heb. 3:11). But what message does this bring to a believer today? No believer today, Jew or Gentile, could go back into the Mosaic legal system since the temple is gone and there is no priesthood.

But every believer is tempted to give up his confession of Christ and go back into the world system’s life of compromise and bondage. This is especially true during times of persecution and suffering. The fires of persecution have always purified the church because suffering separates true believers from the counterfeit. True believers are willing to suffer for Christ and they hold firmly to their convictions and their confession of faith (see Heb. 3:6, 14). We are not saved by holding to our confession. The fact that we hold to our confession is proof that we are God’s true children.

(Wiersbe)
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hello again Carol,
I have told you in an earlier post that I have no plans to leave the faith.

Your answer to my question:
"True believers are willing to suffer for Christ and they hold firmly to their convictions and their confession of faith."

Now I would like to go back to Hebrews 3 and see if I can make reasonable application with your answer..............

First of all,I am having a difficult time understanding why the author of Hebrews would use the word BRETHREN in verse 12 if it he is not assumably speaking with true believers(real converts).

12 Beware, BRETHREN, lest there be in you.....

If your(not yours yours, but the author of your post) above statement is 100% true, why would the author of Hebrews waste his time warning the BRETHREN (true believers) of rebelling against God and the deceitfullness of sin?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Carol states:

quote:
Well, barry, maybe you can reject Christ.


Yes i could if did not walk in the spirit and continued in the flesh...yes its possible..

Now your starting to see my point, anyone who does not "endure" to the end can "fall away".

Charles Stanley's principal is that...If one came to your home and called you outside, and stated:

"Deny Yahushua [Jesus the Christ] right now or were going to chop off your head, Stanley's teaching is "even if you deny" your going to heaven..if youve previously ben born again..LIES Carol it lies!

You know the scripture, if you deny me before men, HE will deny you before the Father!

Simple....Talking about leaving HIS [Jesus] Yahushua, does not mean Brother Daniel, nor myself, Brother Dale nor anyone else is contemplating leaving the Messiah..How ABSURD!

Its a warning Carol, to all those who teach, and those that do not teach OSAS>>>>> Walk as HE walked, walk in the Spirit, walk not in the Flesh!

the bilbe warns you Mam!.....You that teach OSAS, are in grave error and can teach a FALSE SECURITY!

You know how se defend Eternal Security, by the scripture, noman can pluck you out of His hand, no devil...BUT YOUR STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!

Im not trying to offend, im trying to help you see the truth here in scripture...


[hug]
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
So you are saying that God is a liar. If He were to tell a person who had been saved that He never knew them, God would be a liar.
betty
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
You know how se defend Eternal Security, by the scripture, noman can pluck you out of His hand, no devil...BUT YOUR STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!

If you are truly saved nothing can separate you from the love of God, not even your “STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!”
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
oninchrist

As you read this you will see that the author of Hebrews was speaking to a congregation.

Hebrews 3:12 (NASB)
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

He called the group brethren, and warns that among them there may be someone who is not a true believer.

The writer warned these Hebrew believers against going back to Judaism. This entire letter to the Hebrews focuses on the superiority of Jesus Christ over everything in Judaism because nothing in Judaism can provide ultimate salvation and eternal rest.

barrykind,

quote:
Yes i could if did not walk in the spirit and continued in the flesh...yes its possible..


WHY do you walk in the Spirit barrykind?

quote:
You know how se defend Eternal Security, by the scripture, noman can pluck you out of His hand, no devil...BUT YOUR STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!
You want to yell? I can yell too. YOU ARE NOT SAVED BY YOUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, BUT BY HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HIS GRACE!!!

Matthew 6:33 does NOT say, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and OUR righteousness..." Rather, the Bible says ... seek HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. We are to seek Jesus' righteousness. 2nd Corinthians 5:21 states, "For he (God the Father) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." This speaks of Christ's imputed righteousness (i.e., our sins are placed upon Christ's record, and His righteousness is placed upon our record). We are JUSTIFIED in the eyes of God. The blood of Jesus takes our sins away forever (1st Peter 1:18,19). This is true righteousness, and it is found ONLY in Christ Jesus. We are commanded to seek HIS righteousness if we want to obtain the Kingdom of God. "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption" (1st Corinthians 1:30).

Grace is UNDESERVED pardon.

Am I saying we can sin like crazy? NO. Our Lord said He will DISCIPLINE those He loves. Do you doubt Him? I don't.

For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives. (Hebrews 12:6).

Does a born again Christian WANT to sin like crazy? NO. He is a new creation in Christ. But he can be tempted and vexed by demons, and subjected to Satan's fiery darts.

Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. (Ephesians 6:11)

quote:
Simple....Talking about leaving HIS [Jesus] Yahushua, does not mean Brother Daniel, nor myself, Brother Dale nor anyone else is contemplating leaving the Messiah..How ABSURD!


You think it's absurd if I wonder why believers talk about rejecting Christ and leaving Him? I think it's absurd that believers would even think such things, let alone talk about them, when their hearts should be filled with the love of Christ and the fruit of the Holy Spirit. If you think it's absurd to ask you that, then you should realize it's absurd for you to suggest it about others as well.

You are saved by HIS righteousness and HIS grace. He is the One who disciplines you. He is the One who sanctifies you. He is the One who works good works through you. He is the author and finisher of your faith. He is the Savior. NOT YOU.
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
You walk in the Spirit because at the moment you get saved, the Holy Spirit comes to live in your heart. This said, you may stray from God, but you will not give up your salvation.
betty
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Betty,
You said:
"This said, you may stray from God, but you will not give up your salvation"

Do you go as far as to say that we can willfully commit sin(that we know is clearly against Gods will) and willfully refuse to confess it/repent of it............and still be forgiven for the same?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
The writer warned these Hebrew believers against going back to Judaism. How could that be considered “turning away from the living God” when Judaism worships the same God? This entire letter to the Hebrews focuses on the superiority of Jesus Christ over everything in Judaism because nothing in Judaism can provide ultimate salvation and eternal rest.
Yes, these Hebrews were at a crossroads, the writer warned them that if the Lord would not permit them to go on to perfection in Christ, they would fall away and could not be renewed again to repentance.
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Daniel,

Going by your beliefs, a Christian could commit a sin and not realize it get killed in accident and go to hell.
God will discipline a Christian who has unrepented sin but God does not kick His children out of His family.

betty
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
The writer warned these Hebrew believers against going back to Judaism. How could that be considered “turning away from the living God” when Judaism worships the same God? This entire letter to the Hebrews focuses on the superiority of Jesus Christ over everything in Judaism because nothing in Judaism can provide ultimate salvation and eternal rest.
Yes, these Hebrews were at a crossroads, the writer warned them that if the Lord would not permit them to go on to perfection in Christ, they would fall away and could not be renewed again to repentance.
Bloodbought, I don't understand what you mean here when you say "if the Lord would not permit them." God is not willing that any should perish.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Bloodbought, I don't understand what you mean here when you say "if the Lord would not permit them."

Hebrews 6 (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Read the two bolded parts together.

God is sovereign. He has mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom he will He hardeneth.

quote:
God is not willing that any should perish.

He is not willing that any of His elect should perish. All of the others will perish because of their rebellion.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hello again Betty,
In your response to my post you said:
"Going by your beliefs, a Christian could commit a sin and not realize it get killed in accident and go to hell".

You have certainly misunderstood my post. I did not make reference to a Christian who committed sin WITHOUT REALIZING IT. I made reference to a Christian who KNOWINGLY sinned against God and KNOWINGLY refused to repent.

Do you believe that God forgives a man who knows his sin and refuses to repent?

By the way, just as a sidenote......I know a man(who was at one time in the past a converted Christian) who is in this circumstance. He has left his wife and gone into an adulterous relationship with a woman half his age. He is with her to this day living in fornication. He has so lifted up in pride that he refuses to repent. Should we assume that he is already forgiven too?, assuming that he was a genuine conversion way back when.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Daniel,

Even in the circumstances you described, I do not believe that person has lost his salvation. I believe that God will discipline that person until he repents. I believe that there will be tears in Heaven when we stand before God and are judged for our sins that are not repented of. A smart Christian ask for forgiveness ever day because they do not want to be standing before God in such a state. Your friend is not getting away with his sins. You probably do not know how he is suffering personally for his refusal to admit his sin and seek for forgiveness.

My niece moved in with a non Christian without marriage and had a baby. It took two years of God moving in their lives and now her husband is saved and they got married because God convicted them of their sins. We do not always see the work God is doing in others.
betty
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
o no Carol i wasnt yelling, making infaces..sorry

[hug]
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Betty,
Whether someone has backslidden or fallen away I do not know, and I will not pretend to be God...........but the thing that I do know is that whether or not someone has backslidden or fallen away, he/she can once again be restored to God through repentance and Gods forgiveness.

I am not here trying to cause doubt and fear. I think that our motive should be to come alongside the sinning brother/sister and humbly try and encourage them to be restored to fellowship with God whether they are fallen away or backslidden. This is best done in a spirit of love and a gentle reminder of Gods past track record of goodness in their life.
Thank you for the fellowship Betty. I like your sincerity and I do believe you love the Lord. I do not want to be one to come and make anyone doubt their relationship with God. I would rather be here to encourage more confidence in God and more dependence on His strength.
I do believe that a person can fall away........but only by a continuous and purposeful neglect of Gods warning after warning. Once again, I think the knowledge that one can fall away is useless without a heart desire to see such a one restored to God.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Don't call me Sister Carol. It makes me sound like a nun.


Wait. Let me find a chalk board. LOL Sister Carol.

EEEEECCCCHHHHH.


Boy some peoples kids....

No ones my brother till they have Christ's BLOOD in them(communion) thru them(His Word) By Him(New Birth By the Spirit Person God)

my order of events may not be correct, please modify as directed BigC.

Se Ya on the other side.

Keep the Faith.

[rapture]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Betty,
Whether someone has backslidden or fallen away I do not know, and I will not pretend to be God...........but the thing that I do know is that whether or not someone has backslidden or fallen away, he/she can once again be restored to God through repentance and Gods forgiveness.

I am not here trying to cause doubt and fear. I think that our motive should be to come alongside the sinning brother/sister and humbly try and encourage them to be restored to fellowship with God whether they are fallen away or backslidden. This is best done in a spirit of love and a gentle reminder of Gods past track record of goodness in their life.
Thank you for the fellowship Betty. I like your sincerity and I do believe you love the Lord. I do not want to be one to come and make anyone doubt their relationship with God. I would rather be here to encourage more confidence in God and more dependence on His strength.
I do believe that a person can fall away........but only by a continuous and purposeful neglect of Gods warning after warning. Once again, I think the knowledge that one can fall away is useless without a heart desire to see such a one restored to God.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Luv Ya Brother.

But do u ever listen 2 yourself?

"I think" "I think" "I think "

Dude Dont U no?
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
The sinking Peter was not saved by holding on, but our Lord reached out and caught him.

O you of little faith, why did you doubt? (Matt. 14:29-31).

Great read here:

Is my salvation in Christ secure, or can I lose my salvation?

http://www.backtothebible.org/index.php/Q-Is-my-salvation-in-Christ-secure-or-can-I-lose-my-salvation.html

Speaking of Peter...

quote:
"Deny Yahushua [Jesus the Christ] right now or were going to chop off your head, Stanley's teaching is "even if you deny" your going to heaven..if youve previously ben born again..LIES Carol it lies!


Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." (Matthew 26:34)

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail ; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers." (Luke 22:31-32)

He knew Peter would fail. He also knew that failure was not Peter's whole story.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
Why so many think they can repent and accept Christ today and receive eternal life and walk away from His salvation tomorrow I don’t know. Salvation is not offered on the basis of what we do, or fail to do, because it’s not of works. Salvation is offered on the basis of what Christ has done on the cross. He said, “It is finished.” There is nothing more to be done. We don’t need to focus on how good we can be, because no matter how good we try to be, we are never good enough. Instead we should focus on how vile we are and realise our hopeless condition before God and realise that apart from His mercy we are headed for hell fire. We must accept His mercy and by accepting Christ, we are accepting His mercy. When we accept His mercy our sins past present and future are cast into the sea of His forgetfulness.

The next time we sin, is He going to retrieve our sins again and put them back to our account and set us back on the broad road? No, our sins are blotted out by the application of the blood, never to be remembered against us any more. Our sins have no more dominion over us, because they are gone forever. When we fail, the blood cleanses and keeps on cleansing, and Christ is seated at the Father’s right hand interceding on our behalf, until He presents us faultless before His throne. He is a faithful High Priest that we can depend on.

God bless.
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Bloodbrought,

Reading your post I thought of these verses. If as Parents, our children disappoint us we do not say that they are no longer our children. We do not stop loving them. When we become God's children, he does not forget we are His children because we sin. Sin has consequences. We reap what we sow and sometimes it is hard sowing those crops, but we are still the children of God.
betty
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Brother Bloodbought,

You said:
"Why so many think they can repent and accept Christ today and receive eternal life and walk away from His salvation tomorrow I don’t know."

In the bible we see the term/sayings "falling away", "departing from the living God", "apostacy". I do not see the saying "walk away", although Jesus does use the words "go away" when He says to His disciples........"Do you also want to go away?" in John 6:67.

Vines Concise Dictionary
Fall away: In 2 Thess. 2:3 "the falling away" signifies apostacy from the faith.

Wycliffe Bible Dictionary
Apostacy: "a falling away or defection from the faith"

These are biblical concepts which some people (for whatever reasons) just flat out reject.

You said:
"Salvation is not offered on the basis of what we do, or fail to do, because it’s not of works. Salvation is offered on the basis of what Christ has done on the cross."

I think most people would agree with you here.

You said:
"Instead we should focus on how vile we are and realise our hopeless condition before God and realise that apart from His mercy we are headed for hell fire."

I do not agree that we(Christians) should be focusing on how vile we are..........I believe that we should be focusing on how Jesus has the power to change us and make us fit to come into Gods presence. Not to say that we are not vile before we come to Jesus.......but that....our present day focus, in Christ, is better off concentrated on our transformation.

You said:
"The next time we sin, is He going to retrieve our sins again and put them back to our account and set us back on the broad road? No, our sins are blotted out by the application of the blood, never to be remembered against us any more."

The Bible says "IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is not questioning the power of the blood. It is Gods condition on our ability to gain access to the saving power of the blood.
In Revelation, Jesus gives warnings to the seven churches and He calls them to repent of specific sins. We do not say that they were already forgiven and cleansed by the blood even before they repented. It wouldnt be any different for us.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Brother B,
I am not offended when I see the word "we" in other peoples posts. If I dont agree with what comes after the "we"........then I might post a rebuttal. Would you please post your rebuttal. I do not think you would have been so offended by the "we" unless there was something else that you disagreed with???or do you just get offended at all the "we's" on everyones posts....or just my "we's" only??

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Brother B,
I am not offended when I see the word "we" in other peoples posts. If I dont agree with what comes after the "we"........then I might post a rebuttal. Would you please post your rebuttal. I do not think you would have been so offended by the "we" unless there was something else that you disagreed with???or do you just get offended at all the "we's" on everyones posts....or just my "we's" only??

With love in Christ, Daniel

Not U me.

Military training leftovers.

One was never aloud to included a "we" unless on the same mission.

U along with 2 others have voiced your opinion on my training by Christ with my call/orders from above.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
oneinChrist

quote:
These are biblical concepts which some people (for whatever reasons) just flat out reject.


What "some people (for whatever reasons) just flat out reject" is the belief that those who left Christ were actually born again. He knows who will truly believe and who will not, and He does not save pretenders. They don't lose their salvation - they never had it to begin with.

John 6:61-69 (NLT)

Jesus was aware that his disciples were complaining, so he said to them, “Does this offend you? Then what will you think if you see the Son of Man ascend to heaven again? The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.) Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”

At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him. Then Jesus turned to the Twelve and asked, “Are you also going to leave?”

Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. We believe, and we know you are the Holy One of God.”

Disciples are students, not necessarily believers. A lot of people who go to church are disciples, but they don't truly believe. True believers know Him, not just about Him.

Here is a biblical concept which some people (for whatever reason) just flat out reject:

“He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.” (Hebrews 7:25)
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Carol,
The bible uses the words "born again" and the bible uses the words "falling away/apostacy. Would you be willing to look up both topics and post what you find on both of them.

Once again, my postion on this subject is that if it were not possible to "fall away" or "defect from the faith" that God makes us love Him vs. giving us the freedom to express our love towards Him in return for His love towards us.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
I Jn 1:5-1:7 "IF" we sin I Jn 2:1 ....

To need an "Advocate" is proof I Jn 2:1 that our sins were not "paid" for Past, Present, and Future.

If that were so, we would not need an Advocate with the Father...

this one fact makes Eternal Security teaching a lie!

sin committed after one comes to Yahshua are cleansed on the condition that those who continue in Grace walk in continually repentance!

unconfessed sin will separate you from the love of Yahweh.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
God knew everything we would ever do before we were even born!

We need an advocate in Heaven, because Satan accuses us before God day and night (Rev. 12:10). Satan would like to put a mark against the Christian when he sins. If he could do this, every Christian would be barred from Heaven, because none is perfect. But, thank God, the Lord Jesus Christ is the author of Eternal Salvation. He not only died upon the cross to save us, but He lives as our Advocate in Heaven to intercede on our behalf; therefore, "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?" (Rom. 8: 33). "If any man sin, we have an Advocate." Notice, it does not say if any man confesses his sin we have an Advocate but, "If any man sin." The moment a Christian sins Christ his Advocate pleads his cause, so that no charge can be laid against him in Heaven. Sin, however, does affect his fellowship with God the Father, (but not his relationship as a child of God), and must be confessed. Otherwise he will be chastised.

quote:
sin committed after one comes to Yahshua are cleansed on the condition that those who continue in Grace walk in continually repentance!


Agreed. We are washed completely, but we need to wash our feet often. (John 13)

quote:
unconfessed sin will separate you from the love of Yahweh.


NOTHING can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

But unconfessed sin will keep us from fellowship with God.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Carol,
The bible uses the words "born again" and the bible uses the words "falling away/apostacy. Would you be willing to look up both topics and post what you find on both of them.

Once again, my postion on this subject is that if it were not possible to "fall away" or "defect from the faith" that God makes us love Him vs. giving us the freedom to express our love towards Him in return for His love towards us.

With love in Christ, Daniel

"For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live unto God. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me ; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." (Galatians 2:19-20).

You can look up those topics if you want to. IMHO it is more important to understand that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ, and He lives in us. To say we are free to defect from the faith, to turn away from Him, is like saying we are free to eat decomposed garbage. Who would want to?
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Carol I can not believe your total disregard for the context of 1st John......

1 John 1

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


there is a very clear condition on Eternal Life.... if you confess your sin .....if, if, if, if, if, if.....he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


verse 2 tell us clearly what eternal life is.....it is Yahshua....

Yahweh does not remove our free will when anyone except His Grace, a believer still has choices to make.....

the if's in that small amount of scripture is overwhelming and you just totally disregard it...
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
there is a very clear condition on Eternal Life.... if you confess your sin .....if, if, if, if, if, if.....he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

You're the one disregarding scripture.

Yes there is a condition to Eternal Life. We must be born again.

But when did I ever say we don't need to confess our sins?
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
you are still avoiding the fact that the sin in question is only forgiven in response to and subject to confessing that sin...
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
you are still avoiding the fact that the sin in question is only forgiven in response to and subject to confessing that sin...

Looks like you are being taken in your own craftiness again.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

What if certain parts of my flea-shin vessel fail to where I could not work Grace as you say?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

VIVA LA RAPTURE!


[rapture]
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
you are still avoiding the fact that the sin in question is only forgiven in response to and subject to confessing that sin...

and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness...

If we have been cleansed from all unrighteousness, then do we WANT to sin? Think about it. Cleansed from all unrighteousness. I'll give you a hint...

NO

So if that person does sin, because none of us is perfect, he's going to feel terrible. Defiled. Of course he will confess to God and ask not only to be forgiven, but also to be strengthened so he will not make that mistake again.

YES?

Otherwise he will be chastised until he does repent.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
. I look at it like this. If you've ever been a tenant somewhere and had a lease, you know sometimes the top of the lease is in bold black ink and usually says something like: I (your name) hereby enters into a contractual agreement with (Realtor) to lease the building/apartment at (location) for a fee of $_____ per month.

Below these opening lines there is usually a list of 20 or more bullet points of fine print, listing the conditions of your tenancy. Such as:
*Loud music will not be played past 10:00pm or before 9:00am
*Animals are not allowed in this apartment complex
*Garbage will not be thrown from windows or placed in hallways
*Smoking is prohibited in hallways and lobby
*Drinking alcoholic beverages is prohibited in hallways and lobby
*Alteration of landscape is prohibited except by written consent from (Realtor)
*etc etc etc

It usually ends with something like
*Violation of these terms and conditions will be grounds for the termination of your lease agreement.

The OSAS crowd most of the time only looks at the top of the 'lease agreement' to salvation, and screams "Jesus made my payment, I have the right to live here no matter what!" Or in other words "I accepted Christ, and I'm saved no matter what!". Never....I mean NEVER do they read the terms and conditions of their 'tenancy'. I will even say, in my experience, most of them don't know the fine print even exists. For if they did, they would not believe in the heresy.

I would strongly urge you to reject this doctrine of devils; it leads to a path of destruction, and gives people every excuse in the book to be despicable, apathetic human beings.


The proof that having to emulate Jesus didn't end after the crucifixion and mid-acts dispensationalism is mostly incorrect, and the verses I am posting come from the apostles long after the crucifixion and even Paul himself.

Which kind of people would you rather have?

Which would you rather trust if you had to?

A Christian who believes you have to follow Christ, and obey His commandments, try to be perfect, overcome through Him, and live a holy life?

Or a 'Christian' who believes that they can be as sinful as they want, and it will never make a difference on their soul, everything is ok, don't have to try to BE or DO anything...don't have to give, or care, or have charity, or the fruits of the spirit, nothing.

I think there's no doubt about it, I would go with a REAL Christian any day.

please give close attention to the following scriptures.....

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

OSAS turns the grace of God into lasciviousness and says you can do anything you want, cause you can't lose your salvation.

1st John 3:15 says that "if you hate your 'brother' you're a murderer and no murderer hath eternal life"

Gal 5:19-21 covers adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, HATRED, variance, emulations, WRATH, STRIFE, seditions, heresies, drunkenness, envyings, murders, and revellings...and says such a person living after flesh and not the Spirit has NO inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1st Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1st Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Some people want to interpret this as Paul as saying that if he 'fails the test' he would merely be getting fewer rewards. Do we have scriptural support to prove that those who actually fail will indeed end up straggling into the kingdom? Hopefully this section will prove otherwise.

2nd Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.

Apparently, Paul and others were working to be accepted by God. Some people want to say that the acceptance in this verse only means "to be pleasing", but lets look at what other scriptures have to say about this...


Now John 15:6-10 says IF you keep his commandments you will abide in Him, if you don't, you will be cast forth as a withered branch and burned. But are you still considered one of His as a withered and burning branch?

Rom 8:9 tells us if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Matthew 12:50, Luke 8:21, John 8:31-32, Luke 6:35, James 2:5, 1st John 1:7, and 2:6 ALL put stipulations of DOING things in order to remain in Him as one of His. Titus 1:16 even tells us you can deny Him by your works, and Titus 2:11-14 tells us Christ wants a people who do good works.

Clearly the conclusion is that Jesus has specific requirements of us as Christians, and that we must meet these requirements to remain in Him, for if we don't, it won't merely be receiving fewer rewards in the kingdom, showing that 2 Cor 5:9 is literally talking about acceptance, not just getting fewer rewards, once again demolishing OSAS.

So you ask..."What about being saved by grace? Aren't we all just saved by grace, and not by our works, hence we can't do any works to lose our salvation?"

Well friends, that's a good question, and there is a little known verse that explains the whole "saved by grace" stuff that OSASers spew like there's no tomorrow.

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

As we can all see, this is the grace that saves, it teaches people to be righteous and godly, so if you're claiming to be saved by grace, and yet you're living like the heathen world, then I would seriously question your salvation.

Further support for this is found in Matt 10:33 and Luke 12:9 where Jesus said "if you deny me before man, I will deny you before the Father."
Then we find in Titus that a person can be a denier of God, by their very works.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in WORKS they DENY Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good WORK reprobate.

So now you ask "What about God's grace? Surely His grace can keep you saved."

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled.

The context of this is found in the following verses relating to Esau. The author explains the danger of immorality, and draws a parallel to Esau selling off his birthright for a single meal, and all of his desperate crying could not cause repentance and undo it.

The comparison is that falling out of grace into immorality is akin to Esau's mistake, it cannot be undone. Why warn with such an extreme example if it was not possible? Just another pointless threat?

Is the picture getting any clearer? Oh but I'm not done yet.

1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. (This proves that not only is your salvation conditional, but that it also relies on YOU.)

So now the OSAS crowd says "What about being sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit? Eph 4:30"

When a king put his seal upon something, it was an indication that it had his authority and approval, it was not a padlock, it was not a bank vault, it wasn't some kind of barricade. Furthermore, nothing in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation indicates that a seal is unbreakable. In fact, quite the opposite is shown in scriptures. There is a manmade seal and a heavenly seal, both are broken in the Bible...The seal on the tomb was broken when Jesus was resurrected, and the seal on the scroll in Revelation that John saw was also broken.

Many OSASers also leave out the beginning part of Eph 4:30 where it says to not grieve the Holy Spirit...they never stop to wonder what happens if they DO grieve the Spirit by which they are sealed by. Throughout this section I have shown what happens to those who spit in God's face, why would the same not be so for the Holy Spirit?

Now the OSASer resorts to "Well, I trust in the finished work of the cross for my salvation, and that's all I need to do!"

I'm going to bust your bubble on this one. The phrase "trusting in the finished work of the cross" does not exist in scriptures, nor does anything even resemble it. Search for it as you may, there is no such verse.

OSASer says Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "See, Jesus said He never knew them, He doesn't say He knew them once and now He doesn't. This proves they were never saved to begin with."
While the verse alone may be compelling for 'OSAS Lite', it's important to know the context of it. This is not a verse about eternal security, it's actually a verse about the emphasis of works. The important question to ask is WHY is Jesus telling them "I never knew you"? If we look just a few verses prior to this, you'll have the answer. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.. So what was the will of the Father if it wasn't just to prophecy and cast out devils? A few verses prior it says Mat 7:19-20 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. This ties perfectly together with being cast out in verse 23. They did not bear fruit, as many 'mighty' men of God who think they do so much for the Lord, with their evangelizing, and building churches from their thick wallets, have not bore any fruit of the Spirit. I've met a few of them, they can be vile people, and all the charities and mission trips won't mean much to God on their account.

Is there more proof for this? Yes, John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. It is and always has been Faith+Works neither one alone will do.

OSASer says 1Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."See, even if you've done nothing for the Lord, you are still saved.".

This is a lesser known OSAS verse, but it is sometimes used, and can be easily misleading due to the length and complexity of it. These verses start out in verse 11 with Paul saying to the church, that the only foundation we have is Christ, and (figuratively speaking of course) if you build gold, silver, and precious jewels, upon the foundation of Christ, you will receive a reward. But if you build wood, hay, and stubble, upon the foundation of Christ, it will be burned up by fire. Yet the person themself would be saved, and this is true, but there is a condition to this. Remember how the allegory started. Paul is addressing the body of believers telling them the only foundation we have is Christ. So tell me, what if somebody is not abiding in Christ, do they still have Christ?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

How does one abide in Christ?

1 John 2:3-4 We do know that we know him, IF we keep His commandments. If you say you abide in Him you ought to WALK in the same manner as He walked.
3:24 And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

What if you don't have the Spirit?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Looks pretty clear to me. So what are His commandments?

First and foremost, John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another as I have loved you, by THIS shall all men know you are my disciples, if ye love one another.

Further information as to what Jesus and God require of us can be found here, and we know it's not the old Torah, as explained here.

In desperation, the OSASer may throw out 1 Cor 5:5 and say "See, that guy's flesh was destroyed to save his spirit" To which I really have to ask "If there is eternal security, then why did he have to be destroyed in the first place? What danger was his spirit ever in?" The verse is counter-productive to OSAS.

1Peter 1:5 is also sometimes brought up because it says Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Some people would take the verse as meaning you have nothing to do with staying saved. At a first glance, this verse would be very destructive to a lot of my points, but it's really an issue of translation in King James English. Phrureo and phyllaso in the Greek are both translated sometimes as "kept" or "keep" in the Bible and their definitions mean to be guarded or protected, not withheld, retained, or prevented from something. The reason translators used "kept" and "keep" is because of the language at the time, and this can be illustrated by a 'keep' in medieval times being the guarded structure within a castle. It applies in not only 1Peter 1:5 but also in 2Thes 3:3 and Jude 1:24 among others that use phrureo or phylasso, as this is their only definition.

These and other verses were also spoken at the time to counter the dogmatic religious leaders of the day (pharisees), who had the personal power to dictate righteousness and damnation.

So what are we being guarded or protected (kept) from in the context of these verses if it's not preventing the loss of your salvation? We know 1Cor 10:13 says God will not allow you to be tempted beyond means of escape. Sure enough, the verse following 1Peter 1:5 goes right into the temptations and trials of this world. Similarly, the verses following 2Thes 3:3 go into obedience and staying on the straight and narrow, as do the verses immediately prior to Jude 1:24. I believe this settles the context of being kept by God as meaning temptations cannot overpower you, and not as a proof text of eternal security.
 
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :
 
This is a good statement. I think that it clearly stresses the importance of obedience in the Christians life of faith. Thanks.
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
The OSAS crowd most of the time only looks at the top of the 'lease agreement' to salvation, and screams "Jesus made my payment, I have the right to live here no matter what!" Or in other words "I accepted Christ, and I'm saved no matter what!". Never....I mean NEVER do they read the terms and conditions of their 'tenancy'. I will even say, in my experience, most of them don't know the fine print even exists. For if they did, they would not believe in the heresy
---------------------------------


Wow you must have met alot of people. Living in three states and attending 7 Churches who believe in OSAS, I never met ONE who said salvation was a license to sin. You must live in a sinful State.
Mine you I only lived in Texas, Montana and Washington State so maybe we took salvation more seriously then your state.
Eternal Security is not a license to sin but the eternal security that Jesus paid for my sins and I can rest in His salvation and not what I can or cannot accomplish.
betty
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Sister Carols post stated:

"But He doesnt leave us"

My question:But isnt it true that the scriptures show that we can leave Him?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end,

Sister Carol, if it is not possible for us to depart from the faith...........how then would you interpret the above verses?

With love in Christ, Daniel

One more time for U and berry...

Hebrews 10:23-29

Introduction

Hebrews chapter 10 is in many cases a battlefield for the believers. You choose your side and prepare to battle. Someone gives you your ammunition ahead of time so that you don’t have to think much on your own or consider all of the options.

As you are standing on your interpretation someone from the other side fires a shot and puts a hole in your doctrine. What to do now? Do you throw out everything? Probably not….many times it is God himself firing a shot to help you get Bible Doctrine instead of yours. In this study we will TRY to look at this openly.


If salvation can be lost then it was never based on a finished work. Jesus Christ said “It is Finished”. If your salvation is not finished then it is not based on the redeeming work of Christ.

The book of Hebrews was written by Paul and if he wrote in Hebrews that you could lose your salvation then he has brought a curse on himself (Galatians1:9), because he writes all through his epistles about eternal life.

The verses state that if a willful sin is committed by these people that there is no more sacrifice for sins. If this is a saved person then it sounds like the wilfull sins will not be paid for and will be accounted for at the Judgment Seat of Christ. No forgiveness is available between here and there.

Sounds like in verse 29 that this person was sanctified and now they are in danger of judgment.
before we get into the passage let us look at several introductory remarks.

Who Was It Written To

The title of the book says “The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews”. Hebrews1:1 talks about God speaking to the fathers by the prophets, who had fathers and prophets? Hebrews chapter 3 spends time dealing with the fact that Christ is better than Moses. Hebrews chapter 7 talks about the fact that Christ was of a better priestly line than the Levites. Chapters 8 and 9 of Hebrews deal with a better covenant. Hebrews chapter 11 deals with the faith of people who are all a part of the history of Israel.

from the evidence above, we would have to say that this book was written to the Jewish people. This does not mean that we should discard the book of Hebrews or any other Jewish epistles. The book is not written to us, but it is written for us (2 Timothy 3:16).

What Was the Purpose of the Letter?

The book of Hebrews contains the word “better” thirteen times. Christ is better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4), he brought in a better hope than the law (Hebrews 7:19), he was made surety of a better testament (Hebrews 7:22), he is the mediator of a better covenant (Hebrews 8:6), and he was a better sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23).

The book of Hebrews was written to the Jewish people in order to prove that Jesus Christ was “better” than Judaism.

The Time

In order to rightly divide the word of God, we must consider several things. When was the book written, who was it written to, and what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written? We have already discussed who the book was written to, but let us now look at when it was written.

The book of Hebrews was written nearly 30 years after the death of Christ. The temple was still standing and in operation (Hebrews 13:10-11). Jewish people were persecuted when they accepted Christ (Hebrews 10:32), for many Jews were still zealous over the law (Acts 21:20). Many Jewish people were still living under the banner of Judaism and to accept Christ was to reject Judaism.

The Passage

Now we will look at the question, “what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written?”

Verse 23

In verse 23, the Apostle Paul says, “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)”. First notice the word “profession”. A profession is not always true (Romans 1:22). Salvation is not based on our profession, but rather on a belief with the heart and confession of the mouth (Romans 10:9-10). Confession is agreeing with God, for example, when you confess your sins you are agreeing with God against your sins. The Apostle Paul warns the Hebrews not to waver from their profession.

Verses 24-25

These verses were written to exhort the Hebrews to meet together for worship and provoke one another to good works. The early church met often, and one reason was probably to strengthen and encourage each other in times of persecution.

Verses 26-27

Here we have one of the favorite verses of the Armenians, but remember the context of the book of Hebrews. Paul writes, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

Notice three things about this passage.

The sin was done on purpose (willfully). One point to make here is that if this is loss of salvation then we’ve all lost it. You say well I haven’t murdered anyone or committed adultery, but that is not what the verse says. The verse says willful sin. That is anything done knowingly that was unrighteous. Have you lied lately? Probably just a white lie….Have you not done something this week that you knew you should have done (James 4:17)
This person has received the knowledge of the truth.
If this proves that these people were saved then we have some problems.
Were all of the religious leaders saved? According to John 3:2 they knew that Jesus came from God. They had received the knowledge of the truth, but they didn’t all get saved.
The devils time and time again called Jesus the Son of God. Were they saved? No, but they sure did have knowledge of the truth.
So we see that knowledge of the truth in itself merits nothing, but faith in a person is what receives salvation.
After this sin there is no more sacrifice for sin. Keep in mind this is written to the Jewish people. What sin is it when done on purpose, allows no more sacrifice for sins?
Let us look at a scenario. A Jewish boy is born about the time of Christ’s death. He was raised to go to Jerusalem three times a year to appear before the Lord (Exodus 23:14,17; Deuteronomy 16:16). He went through all of the ceremonies and went to the schools of the Hebrews. He was taught to look for the coming of the Messiah, that He would come as a King to deliver His people. Then at about the age of 30, this young man hears a message preached that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that He died for the sins of the whole world. This young man learns more and more about the life of Christ, and begins to compare it with the law and the prophets. God opens his eyes to the fact that Christ was in fact the Messiah and that he must receive Christ by faith. Up to this point he like the apostle Paul has been zealous for God in the law, but now he has “received the knowledge of the truth”. If he receives Christ, then he will be persecuted greatly and his family will probably have a funeral for him and count him as dead. The fear of persecution drives him to “wilfully” reject Christ and return to Judaism. God says to this young man, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”. A spotless lamb or any other sacrifice will no longer hold off the wrath of God, the young man has seen God’s sacrifice. This young man will die and face judgment and fiery indignation, because he rejects God’s sacrifice.

Rejecting Christ is the only sin in this age that will send a man to hell.

Verses 28-29

In verses 28 and 29 Paul writes, “He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” Under the law, the punishment of sin against the commandments in many cases meant death. All it took was the witness of two or three.

According to Hebrews, God hath in these last days spoken unto us by His son. God has three witnesses (1 John 5:7-8). The “sorer punishment” will be poured out on those who “wilfully” reject the Son of God.

Notice in verse 28 that this person has “trodden under foot” the Son of God. When Moses told the children of Israel to put the blood on the side posts and lintel, he said nothing of putting the blood on the floor. In a sense those people were spared by going into the house through or under the blood. To be saved we must go through or under the blood, but this man has lowered the blood and has “trodden under foot”.

Notice next the phrase “wherewith he was sanctified”. The word “sanctified” means to be set apart in holiness. If the word “sanctified” simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture. Remember that the idea of Hebrews is that Jesus Christ is better. Some would say that the person sanctified is the same person who has counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, but look again. Jesus Christ’s blood sanctified himself. The blood set Him apart from bulls, goats, and all other blood either before or after.

Next notice the phrase “despite unto the Spirit of grace.” What this person has done has insulted the spirit of grace. We are saved by grace, and when someone turns from the free offer of salvation to Judaism or any other religion it is a disgrace to the spirit of grace.

Conclusion

In closing we will add evidence that Paul is not talking about the believers backsliding and losing their salvation. In verse 39 Paul says, “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Paul says I’m not talking about us because we have believed to the saving of our soul. These difficult verses when taken in context make more sense and prove once again that the book of Hebrews is about the fact that Jesus Christ is better.

(Forwarded from Ray, Andrew)

Please read prayerfully this time.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Betty [thumbsup2]

becauseHElives keeps hammering that same nail over and over. We've told him a hundred times that Eternal Security is not a license to sin.

The two extremes to avoid are legalism and license.

We cannot earn salvation with obedience and holy living; we cannot add anything to the cross of Christ.

But a true born again believer loves Jesus Christ. Loves Him and wants to please Him by obeying Him - His Word and His Holy Spirit.

John 14
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

Galatians 5:13
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

We can tell that to becauseHElives another few hundred times, and he still won't hear us because he's stuck in a box and can't see anything beyond the nail in front of him, and can't hear anything but the pounding of his hammer.

Bummer.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Betty [thumbsup2]

becauseHElives keeps hammering that same nail over and over. We've told him a hundred times that Eternal Security is not a license to sin.

The two extremes to avoid are legalism and license.

We cannot earn salvation with obedience and holy living; we cannot add anything to the cross of Christ.

But a true born again believer loves Jesus Christ. Loves Him and wants to please Him by obeying Him - His Word and His Holy Spirit.

We can tell that to becauseHElives another few hundred times, and he still won't hear us because he's stuck in a box and can't see anything beyond the nail in front of him, and can't hear anything but the pounding of his hammer.

Bummer.

Worse than Bummer. Its a great sadness and lamentation of Spirit.

For it is a subtle form of a False Whiteness.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Becausehelives states:


quote:
I look at it like this. If you've ever been a tenant somewhere and had a lease, you know sometimes the top of the lease is in bold black ink and usually says something like: I (your name) hereby enters into a contractual agreement with (Realtor) to lease the building/apartment at (location) for a fee of $_____ per month.

Below these opening lines there is usually a list of 20 or more bullet points of fine print, listing the conditions of your tenancy. Such as:
*Loud music will not be played past 10:00pm or before 9:00am
*Animals are not allowed in this apartment complex
*Garbage will not be thrown from windows or placed in hallways
*Smoking is prohibited in hallways and lobby
*Drinking alcoholic beverages is prohibited in hallways and lobby
*Alteration of landscape is prohibited except by written consent from (Realtor)
*etc etc etc

It usually ends with something like
*Violation of these terms and conditions will be grounds for the termination of your lease agreement.

The OSAS crowd most of the time only looks at the top of the 'lease agreement' to salvation, and screams "Jesus made my payment, I have the right to live here no matter what!" Or in other words "I accepted Christ, and I'm saved no matter what!". Never....I mean NEVER do they read the terms and conditions of their 'tenancy'. I will even say, in my experience, most of them don't know the fine print even exists. For if they did, they would not believe in the heresy.

I would strongly urge you to reject this doctrine of devils; it leads to a path of destruction, and gives people every excuse in the book to be despicable, apathetic human beings.


The proof that having to emulate Jesus didn't end after the crucifixion and mid-acts dispensationalism is mostly incorrect, and the verses I am posting come from the apostles long after the crucifixion and even Paul himself.

Which kind of people would you rather have?

Which would you rather trust if you had to?

A Christian who believes you have to follow Christ, and obey His commandments, try to be perfect, overcome through Him, and live a holy life?

Or a 'Christian' who believes that they can be as sinful as they want, and it will never make a difference on their soul, everything is ok, don't have to try to BE or DO anything...don't have to give, or care, or have charity, or the fruits of the spirit, nothing.

I think there's no doubt about it, I would go with a REAL Christian any day.

please give close attention to the following scriptures.....

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

OSAS turns the grace of God into lasciviousness and says you can do anything you want, cause you can't lose your salvation.

1st John 3:15 says that "if you hate your 'brother' you're a murderer and no murderer hath eternal life"

Gal 5:19-21 covers adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, HATRED, variance, emulations, WRATH, STRIFE, seditions, heresies, drunkenness, envyings, murders, and revellings...and says such a person living after flesh and not the Spirit has NO inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1st Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1st Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Some people want to interpret this as Paul as saying that if he 'fails the test' he would merely be getting fewer rewards. Do we have scriptural support to prove that those who actually fail will indeed end up straggling into the kingdom? Hopefully this section will prove otherwise.

2nd Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.

Apparently, Paul and others were working to be accepted by God. Some people want to say that the acceptance in this verse only means "to be pleasing", but lets look at what other scriptures have to say about this...


Now John 15:6-10 says IF you keep his commandments you will abide in Him, if you don't, you will be cast forth as a withered branch and burned. But are you still considered one of His as a withered and burning branch?

Rom 8:9 tells us if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Matthew 12:50, Luke 8:21, John 8:31-32, Luke 6:35, James 2:5, 1st John 1:7, and 2:6 ALL put stipulations of DOING things in order to remain in Him as one of His. Titus 1:16 even tells us you can deny Him by your works, and Titus 2:11-14 tells us Christ wants a people who do good works.

Clearly the conclusion is that Jesus has specific requirements of us as Christians, and that we must meet these requirements to remain in Him, for if we don't, it won't merely be receiving fewer rewards in the kingdom, showing that 2 Cor 5:9 is literally talking about acceptance, not just getting fewer rewards, once again demolishing OSAS.

So you ask..."What about being saved by grace? Aren't we all just saved by grace, and not by our works, hence we can't do any works to lose our salvation?"

Well friends, that's a good question, and there is a little known verse that explains the whole "saved by grace" stuff that OSASers spew like there's no tomorrow.

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

As we can all see, this is the grace that saves, it teaches people to be righteous and godly, so if you're claiming to be saved by grace, and yet you're living like the heathen world, then I would seriously question your salvation.

Further support for this is found in Matt 10:33 and Luke 12:9 where Jesus said "if you deny me before man, I will deny you before the Father."
Then we find in Titus that a person can be a denier of God, by their very works.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in WORKS they DENY Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good WORK reprobate.

So now you ask "What about God's grace? Surely His grace can keep you saved."

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled.

The context of this is found in the following verses relating to Esau. The author explains the danger of immorality, and draws a parallel to Esau selling off his birthright for a single meal, and all of his desperate crying could not cause repentance and undo it.

The comparison is that falling out of grace into immorality is akin to Esau's mistake, it cannot be undone. Why warn with such an extreme example if it was not possible? Just another pointless threat?

Is the picture getting any clearer? Oh but I'm not done yet.

1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. (This proves that not only is your salvation conditional, but that it also relies on YOU.)

So now the OSAS crowd says "What about being sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit? Eph 4:30"

When a king put his seal upon something, it was an indication that it had his authority and approval, it was not a padlock, it was not a bank vault, it wasn't some kind of barricade. Furthermore, nothing in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation indicates that a seal is unbreakable. In fact, quite the opposite is shown in scriptures. There is a manmade seal and a heavenly seal, both are broken in the Bible...The seal on the tomb was broken when Jesus was resurrected, and the seal on the scroll in Revelation that John saw was also broken.

Many OSASers also leave out the beginning part of Eph 4:30 where it says to not grieve the Holy Spirit...they never stop to wonder what happens if they DO grieve the Spirit by which they are sealed by. Throughout this section I have shown what happens to those who spit in God's face, why would the same not be so for the Holy Spirit?

Now the OSASer resorts to "Well, I trust in the finished work of the cross for my salvation, and that's all I need to do!"

I'm going to bust your bubble on this one. The phrase "trusting in the finished work of the cross" does not exist in scriptures, nor does anything even resemble it. Search for it as you may, there is no such verse.

OSASer says Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "See, Jesus said He never knew them, He doesn't say He knew them once and now He doesn't. This proves they were never saved to begin with."
While the verse alone may be compelling for 'OSAS Lite', it's important to know the context of it. This is not a verse about eternal security, it's actually a verse about the emphasis of works. The important question to ask is WHY is Jesus telling them "I never knew you"? If we look just a few verses prior to this, you'll have the answer. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.. So what was the will of the Father if it wasn't just to prophecy and cast out devils? A few verses prior it says Mat 7:19-20 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. This ties perfectly together with being cast out in verse 23. They did not bear fruit, as many 'mighty' men of God who think they do so much for the Lord, with their evangelizing, and building churches from their thick wallets, have not bore any fruit of the Spirit. I've met a few of them, they can be vile people, and all the charities and mission trips won't mean much to God on their account.

Is there more proof for this? Yes, John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. It is and always has been Faith+Works neither one alone will do.

OSASer says 1Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."See, even if you've done nothing for the Lord, you are still saved.".

This is a lesser known OSAS verse, but it is sometimes used, and can be easily misleading due to the length and complexity of it. These verses start out in verse 11 with Paul saying to the church, that the only foundation we have is Christ, and (figuratively speaking of course) if you build gold, silver, and precious jewels, upon the foundation of Christ, you will receive a reward. But if you build wood, hay, and stubble, upon the foundation of Christ, it will be burned up by fire. Yet the person themself would be saved, and this is true, but there is a condition to this. Remember how the allegory started. Paul is addressing the body of believers telling them the only foundation we have is Christ. So tell me, what if somebody is not abiding in Christ, do they still have Christ?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

How does one abide in Christ?

1 John 2:3-4 We do know that we know him, IF we keep His commandments. If you say you abide in Him you ought to WALK in the same manner as He walked.
3:24 And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

What if you don't have the Spirit?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Looks pretty clear to me. So what are His commandments?

First and foremost, John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another as I have loved you, by THIS shall all men know you are my disciples, if ye love one another.

Further information as to what Jesus and God require of us can be found here, and we know it's not the old Torah, as explained here.

In desperation, the OSASer may throw out 1 Cor 5:5 and say "See, that guy's flesh was destroyed to save his spirit" To which I really have to ask "If there is eternal security, then why did he have to be destroyed in the first place? What danger was his spirit ever in?" The verse is counter-productive to OSAS.

1Peter 1:5 is also sometimes brought up because it says Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Some people would take the verse as meaning you have nothing to do with staying saved. At a first glance, this verse would be very destructive to a lot of my points, but it's really an issue of translation in King James English. Phrureo and phyllaso in the Greek are both translated sometimes as "kept" or "keep" in the Bible and their definitions mean to be guarded or protected, not withheld, retained, or prevented from something. The reason translators used "kept" and "keep" is because of the language at the time, and this can be illustrated by a 'keep' in medieval times being the guarded structure within a castle. It applies in not only 1Peter 1:5 but also in 2Thes 3:3 and Jude 1:24 among others that use phrureo or phylasso, as this is their only definition.

These and other verses were also spoken at the time to counter the dogmatic religious leaders of the day (pharisees), who had the personal power to dictate righteousness and damnation.

So what are we being guarded or protected (kept) from in the context of these verses if it's not preventing the loss of your salvation? We know 1Cor 10:13 says God will not allow you to be tempted beyond means of escape. Sure enough, the verse following 1Peter 1:5 goes right into the temptations and trials of this world. Similarly, the verses following 2Thes 3:3 go into obedience and staying on the straight and narrow, as do the verses immediately prior to Jude 1:24. I believe this settles the context of being kept by God as meaning temptations cannot overpower you, and not as a proof text of eternal security.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Very good Brother, but as water rolls off the back of a duck, so does the truth off the hearts of some believers.

It will truly be a sad day at the judgement, the great and terrible day...

Brother Clendenon once stated in a sermon i listenend to:

He had a dream and this man was in hell, and he kept picking up people by the back of the hair on thier head, and bro. Clendenon ask the Lord, what is that man doing? Bro. Clendenon stated the Lord told him, "the man is looking for the preacher that told him that lie!

Out of all the differences we may have over, doctrine, esp. eschatology, pre, mid, post, pan tribulation,et. el;

The OSAS doctrine as it is taught, esp. by the "wolves in sheeps clothing", such as Charles Stanley... I feel is the most horendous, devilish lie from hell ever perpetrated on the "church" ever!!!

[thumbsup2]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Carol states:

quote:
Betty

becauseHElives keeps hammering that same nail over and over. We've told him a hundred times that Eternal Security is not a license to sin.

The two extremes to avoid are legalism and license.

We cannot earn salvation with obedience and holy living; we cannot add anything to the cross of Christ.

But a true born again believer loves Jesus Christ. Loves Him and wants to please Him by obeying Him - His Word and His Holy Spirit.

We can tell that to becauseHElives another few hundred times, and he still won't hear us because he's stuck in a box and can't see anything beyond the nail in front of him, and can't hear anything but the pounding of his hammer.

Bummer.

Thats exactly how i feel about you, Betty, and Bill...[edit..i meant to include Carol also]

I feel as you perhaps do, you have ears and cannot hear, eyes and cannot see...

i pray for yall, as i hope you for me...
Pray about it, ask YHWH God to show you ask Him if your heart is hard, and Pleaseask HIM to give you a love of the truth!

Most of all we should pray that a root of bitterness not come into our hearts, for many shall be defiled....

[Prayer] [Bible] [Cross]
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Goodness me, WOWI did not know that Barry and BecauseHeLives were expert on the subject. They probably would not believe salvation is secured if Jesus came down here and told them in person.
I thought for sure my Bible said that Jesus said it was finished on the cross. [Confused]
You two guys are so caught up in the cult you belong to that you would not recognize the truth if it bite you on the nose.
betty
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
“It is Finished”

What was "finished?

The need for sinners to repent?

No indeed.

The need for turning to God from idols?

No indeed.

The need for mortifying my members which are upon earth?

No indeed.

The need for being sanctified wholly, in spirit, and soul, and body?

No indeed.

Christ died not to make my sorrow for, hatred of, and striving against sin, useless. Christ died not to absolve me from the full discharge of my responsibilities unto God. Christ died not so that I might go on retaining the friendship and fellowship of the world. How passing strange that any should think that He did. Yet the actions of many show that this is their idea.

"It is finished." What was "finished?"

The sacrificial types were accomplished, the prophecies, of His sufferings were fulfilled, the work given Him by the Father had been perfectly done, a sure foundation had been laid on which a righteous God could pardon the vilest transgressor of the law who threw down the weapons of his warfare against Him. Christ had now performed all that was necessary in order for the Holy Spirit to come and work in the hearts of His people; convincing them of their rebellion, slaying their enmity against God, and producing in them a loving and obedient heart.

O, dear reader, make no mistake on this point.

The "finished work of Christ" avails you nothing if your heart has never been broken through an agonizing consciousness of your sinfulness. The "finished work of Christ" avails you nothing unless you have been saved from the power and pollution of sin (Matthew 1:21). It avails you nothing if you still love the world (I John 2:15). It avails you nothing unless you are a "new creature" in Him (2 Cor .5:17). If you value your soul, search the Scriptures to see for yourself; take no man’s word for it.

excerpt from Arthur W. Pink
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
It is finished means nothing if you have not been saved. When God saves us, He gives us eternal life, not partial life until you sin.
betty
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Betty looks like someones kids needs to get knocked off their high horse's and into the dust of the earth. That they will ask Who are you Lord!

Then they need to get some prayer on straight street that the shingles will fall from their eyes.


VIVA LA PRE TRIB RAPTURE!

[rapture]
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Betty ... "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." John 5.39-40

this is all anyone of us can do...as we search the scriptures we must allow the Holy Spirit to give us understanding....the scripture are not of private interpretation.....

please don't just say becauseHElive your wrong, give me an explanation of why you disagree.

do you think Jesus understood the Gospel....

Jesus said if you don't understand the parable of the sower you can not understand any of His teaching....


And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

you say once someone believes they can not be lost...

but Jesus said...Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The Bible teaches the absolute eternal security of the believer, not the unbeliever.

The Greek text of every salvation verse, John 3:16 and the rest, that promises salvation as a result of our belief places the verb for belief in the present tense, which in Greek includes the concept of continuing belief, not a one time act of faith. The facet of Greek grammar which displays this feature is called "aspect."

It IS possible to stop believing: Jesus said so in Luke 8:13,

Clearly, "which for a while believe" tells us that they believed only for a while; therefore, they stopped believing.

Don't tell me they never truly believed. Jesus said explicitly that they did believe—for a while.

The point is, those who lacked spiritual depth ("have no root"), or those whose faith was crowded out by the cares and riches and pleasures of this life, things which "choked the word," did not continue to believe, but stopped believing, and brought no fruit to perfection (Luke 8:14).

The practical application of this truth for evangelism, soul winning, and discipleship is obvious. We must follow the admonition of Hebrews 3:12, 13,

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,


Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Betty states:

quote:
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,


Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Amen..i believe that;

Study those scriptures in light of the interpetation of the Good News of the Gospel; and you will find that one can walk away from the love of God which is in Christ [Yahushua] Jesus.

For those of you which go by the standard of "The Berean Bilbe Society" [see another cult the berean bible society], Which states that the 4 Gospels, and much of the "New Testemant" was for the Jews and not for today...i can understand why you dont believe in "If you love me keep my commandments"

It is a perverted gospel, and does not take into account the teachings of Yahushua!

By taking only a portion of Paul's teachings and by passing Peter, Yahushua, and most of acts, you will get a destorted veiw of scriptual teachings... A false grace...

Take the bible as a whole, old and new; they blend and merge into YHWH's purpose for us..

and when Yahushua states "It is finished" you will better understand what He meant.

[hug]
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Carol,
You argue that it is not possible for one to fall away if they are born again.

Paul states that the(gentiles) are "grafted in" to the olive tree contrary to nature. Then he goes on to warn the branches(new gentile believers)not to become haughty(boasting in the branches), otherwise they could be cut off.

No one could be "grafted in" to the olive tree if they did not receive the Holy Spirit(born-again). How is it that Paul then shows us that gentiles could be cut off?

For the record..........
I do believe in eternal security.
Eternal Security to those who continue "looking unto" Jesus (the author and perfecter of our faith)......continuing to learn from Him and His word.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
I think Paul was talking about the Gentiles as a whole not about a Christian losing their salvation.
betty
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Betty states:

quote:
I think Paul was talking about the Gentiles as a whole not about a Christian losing their salvation.
betty


Not what scripture teaches sister..[i know your not a nun; i use that as respect to one who is in the body of Christ]

Just saying..
[hug]
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
no problem with the Sister. I was raised to call all the ladies in the Church Sister and the Men-Brother.


Just a side not. When I was a kid I wished my family were Catholic because I thought Nuns and Priest were so kind like in the movies. On the other hand my mom when she was little was scared of Nuns, because of their clothes.
betty
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Carol,
You argue that it is not possible for one to fall away if they are born again.

Paul states that the(gentiles) are "grafted in" to the olive tree contrary to nature. Then he goes on to warn the branches(new gentile believers)not to become haughty(boasting in the branches), otherwise they could be cut off.

No one could be "grafted in" to the olive tree if they did not receive the Holy Spirit(born-again). How is it that Paul then shows us that gentiles could be cut off?

For the record..........
I do believe in eternal security.
Eternal Security to those who continue "looking unto" Jesus (the author and perfecter of our faith)......continuing to learn from Him and His word.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Betty is right.

The olive tree is a symbol of the nation of Israel (Jer. 11:16-17; Hosea 14:4-6). Please keep in mind that Paul was not discussing the relationship of individual believers to God, but the place of Israel in the plan of God. The roots of the tree support the tree; again, this was a symbol of the patriarchs who founded the nation. God made His covenants with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and He cannot deny them or change them. Thus, it is God’s promise to Abraham that sustains Israel even today.

Many of the Jewish people did not believe. Paul pictured them as branches broken off the tree. But he saw an amazing thing taking place: other branches were grafted into the tree to share in the life of the tree. These branches were the Gentiles. In Romans 11:24, Paul described this “grafting in” as “contrary to nature.” Usually a cultivated branch is grafted into a wild tree and shares its life without producing its poor fruit. But in this case, it was the “wild branch” (the Gentiles) that was grafted into the good tree! “Salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22).

To say that the olive tree, with its natural and grafted branches, is a picture of the church would be a great mistake. In the church, “there is no difference”; believers are “all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:28). God does not look on the members of Christ’s body and see them as Jews or Gentiles. The olive tree illustrates the relationship between Jew and Gentile in the program of God. The “breaking off of the branches” is the equivalent of “the fall” (Rom. 11:11), “the diminishing” (Rom. 11:12), and “the casting away” (Rom. 11:15). To read into this illustration the matter of the eternal destiny of the individual believer is to abuse the truth Paul was seeking to communicate.

Paul warned the Gentiles that they were obligated to Israel, and therefore they dared not boast of their new spiritual position (Rom. 11:18-21). The Gentiles entered into God’s plan because of faith, and not because of anything good they had done. Paul was discussing the Gentiles collectively, and not the individual experience of one believer or another.

(Wiersbe)
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Thank you, Carol.
Betty
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
becauseHElives

quote:
The Bible teaches the absolute eternal security of the believer, not the unbeliever.
That is exactly what we have been saying all along.

becauseHElives says "if." I say "because..."

We Enjoy the Father’s Love (John 14:19-24)

I say "because..."

“The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us” (Rom. 5:5).

Orphans feel unwanted and unloved, but our Father shares His love with us. Jesus explained a threefold manifestation of God’s love.


There was a past manifestation to the disciples (vv. 19-20).

John 14:19 focuses on His resurrection and post-resurrection appearances to His disciples and other believers. The last time the world saw Jesus was when Joseph and Nicodemus took Him from the cross and buried Him. The next time the world sees Him, He will come in power and great glory to judge lost sinners.

John 14:20 centers especially on the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost and the oneness of the believers with their Lord. Jesus returned to heaven as the exalted Head of the church (Eph. 1:19-23); then He sent the Spirit so that the members of the body would be joined to their Head in a living union. Believers today, of course, did not see Jesus after His resurrection or in His ascension, but we are united to Him by the indwelling Holy Spirit.


There is a present manifestation of Himself to believers (vv. 21, 23-24).

Note the repetition of the word love. When we treasure His Word and obey it, then the Father and the Son share Their love with us and make Their home in us. The word translated “abode” in John 14:23 means “make our home” and is related to “mansions” in John 14:2.

When the sinner trusts Christ, he is born again and the Spirit immediately enters his body and bears witness that he is a child of God. The Spirit is resident and will not depart. But as the believer yields to the Father, loves the Word, prays, and obeys, there is a deeper relationship with the Father, Son, and Spirit. Salvation means we are going to heaven, but submission means that heaven comes to us!

This truth is illustrated in the experiences of Abraham and Lot, recorded in Genesis 18 and 19. When Jesus and the two angels visited Abraham’s tent, they felt right at home. They even enjoyed a meal, and Jesus had a private talk with Abraham. But our Lord did not go to Sodom to visit Lot, because He did not feel at home there. Instead, He sent the two angels.

Our experience with God ought to go deeper and deeper, and it will as we yield to the Spirit of Truth and permit Him to teach us and guide us. When we love God and obey Him, He will manifest His love to us in a deeper way each day.


There will be a future manifestation when Jesus Christ returns (v. 19).

Judas (not Iscariot) recalled that Jesus had said He would not manifest Himself to the world (John 14:22). But this seemed to contradict other statements He had made, such as recorded in Matthew 24:30. His question was, “What has come to pass that You are no longer going to reveal Yourself to the world?” Has there been a change in the divine plan?

Jesus had been rejected by His own people, so He could not manifest Himself to them. In fact, it was an act of mercy that He did not manifest Himself to the world, because that would have meant judgment. He has revealed Himself to His church and left the church in the world to be a witness of God’s love. He is patiently waiting, still giving lost sinners opportunity to repent and be saved (2 Peter 3:1-10). One day He will return (Rev. 1:7) and the world will behold Him.

One of the best ways to ease a troubled heart is to bathe it in the love of God. When you feel like an “orphan,” let the Spirit of God reveal God’s love to you in a deeper way.

Charles Spurgeon said, “Little faith will take your soul to heaven, but great faith will bring heaven to your soul.” Your heart can become a “heaven on earth” as you commune with the Lord and worship Him.

(Wiersbe)
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
For those of you which go by the standard of "The Berean Bilbe Society" [see another cult the berean bible society], Which states that the 4 Gospels, and much of the "New Testemant" was for the Jews and not for today...i can understand why you dont believe in "If you love me keep my commandments"

It is a perverted gospel, and does not take into account the teachings of Yahushua!

quote:
The OSAS doctrine as it is taught, esp. by the "wolves in sheeps clothing", such as Charles Stanley... I feel is the most horendous, devilish lie from hell ever perpetrated on the "church" ever!!!
I don't follow the Berean Bible Society, but that's too harsh a judgement. You make assumptions about their doctrine that aren't true.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Betty

 -

Blessed and secure in His love
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hello Carol,
Wiersbe states:
Paul warned the Gentiles that they were obligated to Israel, and therefore they dared not boast of their new spiritual position (Rom. 11:18-21).

Why dare not boast? Mr. Weirsbe? What could happen if Gentiles boast in the branches and continue not in the goodness of Jesus(the vine)?


With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
We shall see what happens to the Gentile nations, and individuals, that are arrogant, dismissive and cruel to the Jews.

According to Bible prophecy, the professing Gentile church will be "cut off" because of apostasy. First Timothy 4 and 2 Timothy 3, along with 2 Thessalonians 2, all indicate that the professing church in the last days will depart from the faith. There is no hope for the apostate church, but there is hope for apostate Israel! Why? Because of the roots of the olive tree. God will keep His promises to the patriarchs, but God will break off the Gentiles because of their unbelief.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
quote:
For the record.......... I do believe in eternal security. Eternal Security to those who continue "looking unto" Jesus (the author and perfecter of our faith)......continuing to learn from Him and His word. With love in Christ, Daniel
[thumbsup2]

that's abiding....don't abide you wither and die!

you are only eternal in Yahshua....
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
The same night Jesus said that to His apostles, about the Vine and the branches and abiding, they all abandoned Him. But He did not abandon them for after His resurrection He appeared to them:

So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." (John 20:19)
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Carol, Carol, Carol,

[BooHoo]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Yes i too believe in Eternal Security, as taught by Yahushua and YHWH's word..

And not as taught by the WOLF![edit sp.]

[hug]
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
barry and becauseHElives DO believe in eternal security.

Have we not emphasized abiding in Christ and walking in the Spirit? Have we not agreed that we must confess our sins to stay in fellowship with our Lord?

WildB, it seems that you and I are not persecuted for our beliefs. We are persecuted simply because we are us.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Yes i too believe in Eternal Security, as taught by Yahushua and YHWH's word..

And not as taught by the WOLF![edit sp.]

[hug]

Galatians 5:22 - 23 (NLT)

But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness , gentleness, and self-control.

The Believer’s Response

We know what Peter’s response was when he was challenged to live up to the truth of the Gospel: fear and failure. And we know what Paul’s response was when he saw the truth of the Gospel being diluted: courage and defense. But the important question today is: what is my response to the “truth of the Gospel”? Perhaps this is a good place to take inventory of ourselves before we proceed into the doctrinal chapters of this letter [Galatians]. Let me suggest some questions for each of us to answer.


Have I been saved by the grace of God?

The only Gospel that saves is the Gospel of the grace of God as revealed in Jesus Christ. Any other Gospel is a false gospel and is under a curse (Gal. 1:6-9). Am I trusting in myself for salvation—my morality, my good works, even my religion? If so, then I am not a Christian, for a true Christian is one who has trusted Christ alone. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).


Am I trying to mix Law and grace?

Law means I must do something to please God, while grace means that God has finished the work for me and all I need do is believe on Christ. Salvation is not by faith in Christ plus something: it is by faith in Christ alone. While church membership and religious activities are good in their place as expressions of faith in Christ, they can never be added to faith in Christ in order to secure eternal life. “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work” (Rom. 11:6).


Am I rejoicing in the fact that I am justified by faith in Christ?

It has often been said that “justified” means “just as if I’d never sinned” and this is correct. It brings great peace to the heart to know that one has a right standing before God (Rom. 5:1). Just think: the righteousness of Christ has been put to our account! God has not only declared that we are righteous in Christ, but He deals with us as though we had never sinned at all! We need never fear judgment because our sins have already been judged in Christ on the cross (Rom. 8:1).


Am I walking in the liberty of grace?

Liberty does not mean license; rather, it means the freedom in Christ to enjoy Him and to become what He has determined for us to become (Eph. 2:10). It is not only “freedom to do” but also “freedom not to do.” We are no longer in bondage to sin and the Law. As Paul will explain in the practical section of this letter (Gal. 5-6), we obey God because of love and not because of Law. Christians enjoy a wonderful liberty in Christ. Am I enjoying it?


Am I willing to defend the truth of the Gospel?

This does not mean that we become evangelical detectives investigating every church and Sunday School class in town. But it does mean that we do not fear men when they deny the truths that have brought us eternal life in Christ. “Do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ” (Gal. 1:10).

Many people with whom we come in contact actually believe that people are saved by faith in Christ plus “doing good works … keeping the Ten Commandments … obeying the Sermon on the Mount,” and any number of other “religious plusses.“ We may not have the same apostolic authority that Paul exercised, but we do have the Word of God to proclaim; and it is our obligation to share the truth.


Am I “walking uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel”?

The best way to defend the truth is to live the truth. My verbal defense of the Gospel will accomplish very little if my life contradicts what I say. Paul is going to explain to us how to live in liberty by the grace of God, and it is important that we obey what he says.

A new employee was instructed how to measure valve parts to make sure they were ready for the final assembly. But after a few hours, his foreman was receiving complaints that the parts he was approving were faulty. “What are you doing?” the foreman asked. “I showed you how to use that micrometer. You’re sending through parts that are oversize!”

The employee replied, “Oh, most of the parts I was measuring were too large, so I opened up the micrometer a bit.”

Changing the standards will never make for success, either in manufacturing or ministry. Paul maintained the standards of “the truth of the Gospel”—and so should we.

(Wiersbe)
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them

–adjective
1. most remote or outermost; farthest: the uttermost stars.
2. of the greatest or highest degree, quantity, etc.; greatest:

He is able to save us to the uttermost not partial salvation not salvation depending how great a life we live.

The prodigal son was still the man's son in the pig stye. He did not have fellowship with his father until he came home, but he was still the man's son. A Christian who has wandered off from God has not lost his salvation. He is out of fellowship from God but He is still God's son.
betty
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
I see Berry thinks hes been commissioned to hand out awards again.LOL.

Sorry worm I got my,

 -

A long time ago.

And by the way if you pay taxes you are guilty of the murder of innocence.

So how does that work in your scam of keeping the big ten and not really doing it?

If you say that you confess it for remission so you will not go to HELL your deceiving yourself again.

Your not only a FALSE WHITENESS but also,

YOUR A LIAR.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
wildb states:
quote:
I see Berry thinks hes been commissioned to hand out awards again.LOL.

Sorry worm I got my,


A long time ago.

And by the way if you pay taxes you are guilty of the murder of innocence.

So how does that work in your scam of keeping the big ten and not really doing it?

If you say that you confess it for remission so you will not go to HELL your deceiving yourself again.

Your not only a FALSE WHITENESS but also,

YOUR A LIAR.



 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
wildb states:


quote:
Your a Liar Christ my whiteness worm.


Are you cursing Christ now wildbill?
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
quote:
WildB

Advanced Member
Member # 2917

posted October 22, 2010 08:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your a Liar Christ my whiteness worm.

--------------------
That is all.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3593 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged

 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Your a Liar.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
wildbill states:

quote:
WildB

Advanced Member
Member # 2917

posted October 22, 2010 08:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your a Liar.

--------------------
That is all.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3594 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |

Is everyone a liar but you bill?

Is that what you think, to call Christ a liar sir you need to check your salvation....

No man speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit can called Yahushua accursed!


1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
wildb if your calling me a liar sir...

You have become a judge:


Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death


So bill your saying im a liar and by saying that you have become a judge and judge my soul to hell?


Father forgive bill for he knows not what he does.... [Prayer]

Calling me a liar i care not sir, except for your soul; but calling Christ a liar is unexceptable...


i rebuke you sir!

Repent from where you have fallen...
[Prayer] [Prayer] [Prayer]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
 -

False whiteness-liar
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
It sounds like you are unable to teach Grace by example.

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Your a Liar.

If barrykind has told a lie, show us what it is.

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
I see Berry thinks hes been commissioned to hand out awards again.LOL.

Sorry worm I got my,

A long time ago.


barrykind is a man made in the image of God. I don't think that calling him a worm will please our Father at all.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Am I willing to defend the truth of the Gospel?

This does not mean that we become evangelical detectives investigating every church and Sunday School class in town. But it does mean that we do not fear men when they deny the truths that have brought us eternal life in Christ. “Do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ” (Gal. 1:10).

Many people with whom we come in contact actually believe that people are saved by faith in Christ plus “doing good works … keeping the Ten Commandments … obeying the Sermon on the Mount,” and any number of other “religious plusses.“ We may not have the same apostolic authority that Paul exercised, but we do have the Word of God to proclaim; and it is our obligation to share the truth.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel; I will help you," declares the LORD, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. (Isaiah 41:14)

Okay, I stand corrected. Are you going to help barry?
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Carol states:

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WildB:
Your a Liar Christ my whiteness worm.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...You need to fix this.

You two [betty and carol] chide with me, and let this [person] call Christ a liar, and ask him to fix it..

Did he ..NO

my evaluation of him stands!


i cannot believe David has not talked with him yet about those posts calling Christ a liar..
David [Knowhim] evidently has not seen the post....

ENOUGH SAID !


[wave3]
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
WildB would never call Christ a liar. You know that, but you will make a big deal out of someone's typing error to make him look bad and make yourself look good. You do such a thing on the Sabbath no less. You have too many typing errors yourself to carry this off barry.

You, in fact, are the one who wrote that walking in the Spirit means to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. It was a typing mistake, that's all.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
WildB deleted it. My guess is he meant to say,

"You're a liar. Christ is my witness, you worm."

(He affirmed this. I wish he would have left the affirmation public).
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
barrykind,

When you provoke people to anger in the real world, where do you run to tattle on them? The police you don't believe in?
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
The gloves are off Carol......
Read your bible


Bill acts arrogantly, and obnoxiously, and he does not combat with scripture, he combats, and debates, with name calling and an ugly disposition..


[hug] [edit] termanology...
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Carol states;

quote:
barrykind,

When you provoke people to anger in the real world, where do you run to tattle on them? The police you don't believe in?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never said i did not believe in Police Carol, you and betty sure ASSUME a lot, and misquote alot....

i wont stand here and let some one post : Christ is a liar..not withou action....i ask Bill several times, he would not answer as useual, excvept with chide remarks and name calling..

Take up and stand by ugliness Carol and you will pay for it Sister...mock me if you like, i dont care....but no one will post "Christ is a liar" without rebuke!

[hug] [thumbsup2]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
carol states:

quote:
WildB would never call Christ a liar. You know that, but in typical low self-esteem fashion, you will make a big deal out of someone's typing error to make him look bad and make yourself look good. You do such a thing on the Sabbath no less. You have too many typing errors yourself to carry this off barry.

You, in fact, are the one who wrote that walking in the Spirit means to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. It was a typing mistake, that's all.

Yep thats right i did, when called to my attention i corrected it.

This that bill wrote was more than once, and he was told what he said, and he chose to ignore for some days..common carol judge righteously!

i dont mind being scrutinized, but when your "precious" doctrinal "apple cart" is turned upside down you flip back and forth...

Judge righteously by scripture Sister, and be fair to all.

You have deleted or had bill delete his posts before, if im not mistaken YOU deleted one of his posts...You have corrected him onhim calling names..right?

Be consistant....we wont always agree but i do not believe i have presented anything outside of scripture, and tho we disagree on many things, i have not, i say again, have NOT said anyone was going to hell, or that they are not saved for using Jesus name, or not believing in the Sabbath, or "Remembering" the sabbath..

i have not said nor believe because you, betty believe in OSAS [or anyone else], that yall are not saved...i consider yall "wrong" but part of the body of Christ.

i have it think proved my point abour the Berean Bible Society...they have "changed" the gospel to only include Pauls letters for the "church" today!

this is another gospel, not just a pre, mid, post, pantrib notion, or things as such...o the Berean Bible Society believes that the words of Yahushua [Jesus] are sound , but they believe therre not for the "church" of today, only Pauls; i say they blend.....all the Bible has purpose, meaning and given for doctrine , etc., etc., just like Paul said.....

[hug]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
quote:
Carol states;


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
barrykind,

When you provoke people to anger in the real world, where do you run to tattle on them? The police you don't believe in?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Carol that statement is offensive and abusive for a moderator..

It feels like you just wanted to take a stab at my heart...

Did not appreciate it either Sister..

[Frown]
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Where do you go to tattle on people who are angry at you? You want to run to David here, so where do you go in the real world?

You're angry and difficult to talk to in this state. I more or less asked WildB to calm down, and I can only ask you to do the same.

I do NOT follow the Berean Bible Society. I do NOT agree with all their teachings. But I respect WildB's right to follow them as they are not considered to be a cult. I also respect your right to your beliefs.

People need to stay with debating doctrine, and not let things degenerate into ugly personal attacks.
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Barry is one of those who enjoy the security that men like WildB fought to give them. He talks down to people and then wines like a baby when we defend ourselves.
betty
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Carol states;

quote:
barrykind,

When you provoke people to anger in the real world, where do you run to tattle on them? The police you don't believe in?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never said i did not believe in Police Carol, you and betty sure ASSUME a lot, and misquote alot....

i wont stand here and let some one post : Christ is a liar..not withou action....i ask Bill several times, he would not answer as useual, excvept with chide remarks and name calling..

Take up and stand by ugliness Carol and you will pay for it Sister...mock me if you like, i dont care....but no one will post "Christ is a liar" without rebuke!

[hug] [thumbsup2]

My bad. I should have said you don't believe in Christian police.

WildB did not call Christ a liar. It was a typing mistake, just like the typing mistakes you make pretty often.

To be fair, I should make a really big deal about the fact that you wrote to walk in the Spirit means to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I should go on and on about it, and accept no explanations.

You know, just to be fair.

I did not delete or ask WildB to delete that post. I asked him to fix it, meaning to rewrite it so it made sense. But he chose to delete it for reasons of his own.

I have stood by you more than once, barry, but if I stand by another you want to say I am unfair? I think you're the one who's unfair today.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
i stillreally inmy heart loveyou Carol!
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
i stillreally inmy heart loveyou Carol!

Love? take a bullet for her?
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
i stillreally inmy heart loveyou Carol!

I'm irresistible
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
i stillreally inmy heart loveyou Carol!

I'm irresistible
ok im in love with berry.

yea berry i will take one for u 2
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
He's your huckleberry

Best friends.
Best Friend", by Harry Nilsson

People let me tell you 'bout my best friend,
He's a warm hearted person who'll love me till the end.
People let me tell you 'bout my best friend,
He's a one boy cuddly toy, my up, my down, my pride and joy.

People let me tell you 'bout him he's so much fun
Whether we're talkin' man to man or whether we're talking son to son.
Cause he's my best friend.
Yes he's my best friend.
(scat finish).
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses Matthew 6:15......


The Unforgiving Official
or The Unmerciful Servant
Scripture: Matthew 18:21-19:1


18:21 Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.23 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24 When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; 25 and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, `Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' 27 And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, `Pay what you owe.' 29 So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, `Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' 30 He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. 32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; 33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' 34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart." 19:1 Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan.

Meditation: How does mercy and justice go together? The prophet Amos speaks of God forgiving transgression three times, but warns that God may not revoke punishment for the fourth (see Amos 1:3-13; 2:1-6). When Peter posed the question of forgiveness, he characteristically offered an answer he thought Jesus would be pleased with. Why not forgive seven times! How unthinkable for Jesus to counter with the proposition that one must forgive seventy times that. Jesus made it clear that there is no reckonable limit to forgiveness. And he drove the lesson home with a parable about two very different kinds of debts. The first man owed an enormous sum of money -- millions in our currency. In Jesus' time this amount was greater than the total revenue of a province -- more than it would cost to ransom a king! The man who was forgiven such an incredible debt could not, however bring himself to forgive his neighbor a very small debt which was about one-hundred-thousandth of his own debt. The contrast could not have been greater! No offence our neighbor can do to us can compare with our debt to God! We have been forgiven a debt which is beyond all paying; to ransom our debt of sin God gave up his only begotten Son. If God has forgiven each of us our debt, which was very great, we, too must forgive others the debt they owe us. Jesus teaches that one must forgive in order to be forgiven. If we do not forgive our fellow man we cannot expect God to forgive us. James says that judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy (James 2:13). Mercy is truly a gift and it is offered in such a way that justice is not negated. Mercy "seasons" justice as "salt" seasons meat and gives it flavor. Mercy follows justice and pefects it. To pardon the unrepentant is not mercy but license. C.S. Lewis, a contemporary Christian author wrote: "Mercy will flower only when it grows in the crannies of the rock of Justice: transplanted to the marshlands of mere Humanitarianism, it becomes a man-eating weed, all the more dangerous because it is still called by the same name as the mountain variety." If we want mercy shown to us we must be ready to forgive others as God has forgiven us. Do you hold any grudge or resentment towards anyone?

"Lord, you have been kind and forgiving towards me. May I be merciful as you are merciful. Free me from all bitterness and resentment that I may truly forgive from the heart all who may have caused me injury or grief."
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses Matthew 6:15......


The Unforgiving Official
or The Unmerciful Servant
Scripture: Matthew 18:21-19:1


18:21 Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.23 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24 When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; 25 and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, `Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' 27 And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, `Pay what you owe.' 29 So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, `Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' 30 He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. 32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; 33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' 34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart." 19:1 Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan.

Meditation: How does mercy and justice go together? The prophet Amos speaks of God forgiving transgression three times, but warns that God may not revoke punishment for the fourth (see Amos 1:3-13; 2:1-6). When Peter posed the question of forgiveness, he characteristically offered an answer he thought Jesus would be pleased with. Why not forgive seven times! How unthinkable for Jesus to counter with the proposition that one must forgive seventy times that. Jesus made it clear that there is no reckonable limit to forgiveness. And he drove the lesson home with a parable about two very different kinds of debts. The first man owed an enormous sum of money -- millions in our currency. In Jesus' time this amount was greater than the total revenue of a province -- more than it would cost to ransom a king! The man who was forgiven such an incredible debt could not, however bring himself to forgive his neighbor a very small debt which was about one-hundred-thousandth of his own debt. The contrast could not have been greater! No offence our neighbor can do to us can compare with our debt to God! We have been forgiven a debt which is beyond all paying; to ransom our debt of sin God gave up his only begotten Son. If God has forgiven each of us our debt, which was very great, we, too must forgive others the debt they owe us. Jesus teaches that one must forgive in order to be forgiven. If we do not forgive our fellow man we cannot expect God to forgive us. James says that judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy (James 2:13). Mercy is truly a gift and it is offered in such a way that justice is not negated. Mercy "seasons" justice as "salt" seasons meat and gives it flavor. Mercy follows justice and pefects it. To pardon the unrepentant is not mercy but license. C.S. Lewis, a contemporary Christian author wrote: "Mercy will flower only when it grows in the crannies of the rock of Justice: transplanted to the marshlands of mere Humanitarianism, it becomes a man-eating weed, all the more dangerous because it is still called by the same name as the mountain variety." If we want mercy shown to us we must be ready to forgive others as God has forgiven us. Do you hold any grudge or resentment towards anyone?

"Lord, you have been kind and forgiving towards me. May I be merciful as you are merciful. Free me from all bitterness and resentment that I may truly forgive from the heart all who may have caused me injury or grief."

and this has 2 do with what?
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
this has 2 do with Eternal Security ....

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses Matthew 6:15......


The Unforgiving Official
or The Unmerciful Servant
Scripture: Matthew 18:21-19:1

18:21 Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.23 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24 When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; 25 and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, `Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' 27 And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, `Pay what you owe.' 29 So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, `Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' 30 He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. 32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; 33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' 34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart." 19:1 Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan.

Meditation: How does mercy and justice go together? The prophet Amos speaks of God forgiving transgression three times, but warns that God may not revoke punishment for the fourth (see Amos 1:3-13; 2:1-6). When Peter posed the question of forgiveness, he characteristically offered an answer he thought Jesus would be pleased with. Why not forgive seven times! How unthinkable for Jesus to counter with the proposition that one must forgive seventy times that. Jesus made it clear that there is no reckonable limit to forgiveness. And he drove the lesson home with a parable about two very different kinds of debts. The first man owed an enormous sum of money -- millions in our currency. In Jesus' time this amount was greater than the total revenue of a province -- more than it would cost to ransom a king! The man who was forgiven such an incredible debt could not, however bring himself to forgive his neighbor a very small debt which was about one-hundred-thousandth of his own debt. The contrast could not have been greater! No offence our neighbor can do to us can compare with our debt to God! We have been forgiven a debt which is beyond all paying; to ransom our debt of sin God gave up his only begotten Son. If God has forgiven each of us our debt, which was very great, we, too must forgive others the debt they owe us. Jesus teaches that one must forgive in order to be forgiven. If we do not forgive our fellow man we cannot expect God to forgive us. James says that judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy (James 2:13). Mercy is truly a gift and it is offered in such a way that justice is not negated. Mercy "seasons" justice as "salt" seasons meat and gives it flavor. Mercy follows justice and pefects it. To pardon the unrepentant is not mercy but license. C.S. Lewis, a contemporary Christian author wrote: "Mercy will flower only when it grows in the crannies of the rock of Justice: transplanted to the marshlands of mere Humanitarianism, it becomes a man-eating weed, all the more dangerous because it is still called by the same name as the mountain variety." If we want mercy shown to us we must be ready to forgive others as God has forgiven us. Do you hold any grudge or resentment towards anyone?

"Lord, you have been kind and forgiving towards me. May I be merciful as you are merciful. Free me from all bitterness and resentment that I may truly forgive from the heart all who may have caused me injury or grief."

 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
It reads like something about unforgiveness?
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
you can not have Eternal Life if your are unforgiven!

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses Matthew 6:15......


The Unforgiving Official
or The Unmerciful Servant
Scripture: Matthew 18:21-19:1

18:21 Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.23 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24 When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; 25 and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, `Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' 27 And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, `Pay what you owe.' 29 So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, `Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' 30 He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. 32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; 33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' 34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart." 19:1 Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan.

Meditation: How does mercy and justice go together? The prophet Amos speaks of God forgiving transgression three times, but warns that God may not revoke punishment for the fourth (see Amos 1:3-13; 2:1-6). When Peter posed the question of forgiveness, he characteristically offered an answer he thought Jesus would be pleased with. Why not forgive seven times! How unthinkable for Jesus to counter with the proposition that one must forgive seventy times that. Jesus made it clear that there is no reckonable limit to forgiveness. And he drove the lesson home with a parable about two very different kinds of debts. The first man owed an enormous sum of money -- millions in our currency. In Jesus' time this amount was greater than the total revenue of a province -- more than it would cost to ransom a king! The man who was forgiven such an incredible debt could not, however bring himself to forgive his neighbor a very small debt which was about one-hundred-thousandth of his own debt. The contrast could not have been greater! No offence our neighbor can do to us can compare with our debt to God! We have been forgiven a debt which is beyond all paying; to ransom our debt of sin God gave up his only begotten Son. If God has forgiven each of us our debt, which was very great, we, too must forgive others the debt they owe us. Jesus teaches that one must forgive in order to be forgiven. If we do not forgive our fellow man we cannot expect God to forgive us. James says that judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy (James 2:13). Mercy is truly a gift and it is offered in such a way that justice is not negated. Mercy "seasons" justice as "salt" seasons meat and gives it flavor. Mercy follows justice and pefects it. To pardon the unrepentant is not mercy but license. C.S. Lewis, a contemporary Christian author wrote: "Mercy will flower only when it grows in the crannies of the rock of Justice: transplanted to the marshlands of mere Humanitarianism, it becomes a man-eating weed, all the more dangerous because it is still called by the same name as the mountain variety." If we want mercy shown to us we must be ready to forgive others as God has forgiven us. Do you hold any grudge or resentment towards anyone?

"Lord, you have been kind and forgiving towards me. May I be merciful as you are merciful. Free me from all bitterness and resentment that I may truly forgive from the heart all who may have caused me injury or grief."

 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
becauseHElives, you are still mixing law with grace. You are confusing salvation with blessings. Salvation is a miracle based on the righteousness of Christ our Savior; we could never, ever be good enough to earn it.

Matthew 6:14-15

We must pray, having a forgiving spirit toward others.

In this “appendix” to the prayer, Jesus expanded the last phrase of Matthew 6:12, “as we forgive our debtors.” He later repeated this lesson to His disciples (Mark 11:19-26). He was not teaching that believers earned God’s forgiveness by forgiving others; for this would be contrary to God’s free grace and mercy. However, if we have truly experienced God’s forgiveness, then we will have a readiness to forgive others (Eph. 4:32; Col. 3:13). Our Lord illustrated this principle in the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant (Matt. 18:21-35).

We have seen that true praying is a “family affair” (“Our Father”). If the members of the family are not getting along with one another, how can they claim to have a right relationship with the Father? The emphasis in 1 John 4 is that we show our love for God by loving our brothers. When we forgive each other, we are not earning the right to prayer; for the privilege of prayer is a part of our sonship (Rom. 8:15-16). Forgiveness belongs to the matter of fellowship: If I am not in fellowship with God, I cannot pray effectively. But fellowship with my brother helps to determine my fellowship with God; hence, forgiveness is important to prayer.

Since prayer involves glorifying God’s name, hastening the coming of God’s kingdom (2 Peter 3:12), and helping to accomplish God’s will on earth, the one praying must not have sin in his heart. If God answered the prayers of a believer who had an unforgiving spirit, He would dishonor His own name. How could God work through such a person to get His will done on earth? If God gave him his requests, He would be encouraging sin! The important thing about prayer is not simply getting an answer, but being the kind of person whom God can trust with an answer.

(Wiersbe)

=====================================================

This was spoken on the Sabbath in a synagogue when Paul was invited to speak to the Jews at Antioch:


Acts 13:38 - 41 (NASB)

“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. “Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:

41 ‘BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE,
THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.’”
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Carol , it is so sad when people try to explain away what is plainly stated in scripture....

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses Matthew 6:15......

the author and finisher of salvation made that declarative statement, it take someone truly arrogant to say He did not mean what He clearly stated!
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
I don't mean to sound arrogant; please forgive me.

But we cannot mix law and grace. Concerning salvation, it is either one or the other. "And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6 KJV)

Grace is a gift from God. It was paid for by Christ on the cross.

The New Covenant is death to self vs the self-righteousness of the Old Covenant.

becauseHElives, do you believe that God deals with His people through covenants?
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
I don't mean to sound arrogant; please forgive me.

But we cannot mix law and grace. Concerning salvation, it is either one or the other. If works then it is no more grace; if grace then it is no more works. (Romans 11:6)

The New Covenant is death to self vs the self-righteousness of the Old Covenant.

becauseHElives, do you believe that God deals with His people through covenants?

It sounds like he believes God deals with his people through conditions?

Material Conditions

Material Conditions (NWP 3-20.31) establish the fighting integrity of the ship and maintain its survivability. The determination of the material condition set at any time is the responsibility of the Commanding Officer, who may authorize modifications of any material condition.

X-Ray provides the least tightness and the greatest ease of access throughout the ship. It is set when the threat to the ship is minimal, during working hours when in port, or when there is no danger of attack or bad weather.
Yoke is set when at sea, or in port during wartime.

Zebra provides the greatest degree of subdivision and tightness to the ship. It is set immediately and automatically when general quarters is sounded. It is also set when entering or leaving port during wartime, to localize damage and control fire and flooding, or at any time the Commanding Officer deems it necessary. Modified Material Condition ZEBRA - allows movement around the ship for special conditions such as: Underway Replenishment (UNREP); Vertical Replenishment (VERTREP); Air Operations; Amphibious Operations; transit of known or suspected hazardous navigation areas.

One of the most important features of ship survivability is the ability to configure the ship to simultaneously allow the survivability system to function and the ship to be operated. Standard configurations representing varying degrees of closure and known as "material conditions" set the ship according to the degree of threat to the ship and the current operational directives. All fittings in the ship are marked to indicate how they are to be set during various material conditions. The determination of the material condition set at any time is the responsibility of the CO, who may authorize modification of any material condition. Closures are defined as closable openings in overheads, decks and bulkheads for access by personnel. Fittings are covers, valves, caps and plugs for access other than for personnel and for control of fluid flow. They may be on or in piping and ventilation systems, or in overheads, decks and bulkheads. For brevity, where context allows, the term fitting is used to include the meaning of both fitting and closure, and the term compartmentation is used to include both structural and fluid system segregation.

Condition XRAY provides the least watertight integrity and the greatest ease of access throughout the ship. It is set when the threat to the ship is minimal. Condition XRAY is set during working hours when the ship is in port and there is no danger of attack or from weather. The minimum degree of tightness permitted on an operational ship is condition XRAY. When condition XRAY is set, all fittings marked with a black X are closed.

Condition YOKE provides a greater degree of watertight integrity than condition XRAY, but to a lesser degree than the maximum condition. YOKE is normally set at sea and in port during wartime. When Condition Yoke is set, all fittings marked with black Xs and Ys, Circle X and Circle Y are closed. A modified condition YOKE is sometimes used at sea when cruising independently in good weather and calm seas and in port in peacetime. In the modified condition, YOKE fittings above the waterline are left open to improve ventilation and habitability. All other XRAY and YOKE fittings are closed.

Condition ZEBRA provides the greatest degree of subdivision and water-tight integrity to the ship. It is the maximum state of readiness for the ship's survivability system. Condition ZEBRA is set: Immediately and automatically when general quarters is sounded; When entering or leaving port in wartime; To localize damage and control fire and flooding when the crew is not at general quarters; and At any time the CO deems the maximum condition of survivability should be set. When condition ZEBRA is set, all fittings marked with black Xs and Ys, Circle X, Circle Y, Circle Z, red Zs and DOG Zs are closed.

There may arise certain situations during which the CO may wish to set a modified material condition ZEBRA. Setting of modified material condition ZEBRA will give a higher survivability stance than condition YOKE. At the same time, modified ZEBRA is less restrictive and will more readily allow the accomplishment of certain operational requirements. Modified ZEBRA may result as an upgrade from condition YOKE or as a downgrade from condition ZEBRA. Some of the situations that may make a modified material condition ZEBRA desirable are: Underway replenishment; Vertical replenishment; Air operations; Amphibious operations; or Transit of known or suspected hazardous navigation areas.

On larger ships, setting material condition ZEBRA in part or in total without all hands at general quarters will impede the ship's company from quickly manning battle stations. This situation could result in ZEBRA being set slower than had the ship been at material condition YOKE before the emergency. Large ships should therefore consider this when changing material condition.

Some fittings that are required to be open or closed for specific purposes carry special markings. Circle XRAY and YOKE fittings are access fittings to battle stations and compartments containing equipment that requires periodic checks or fittings that must be opened for ammunition transfer, as well as some systems. Circle XRAY and YOKE fittings are normally closed when conditions XRAY or YOKE are set. They may be opened without special authority when going to or securing from general quarters, transferring ammunition, periodic space or equipment checks or operating damage control equipment. Circle XRAY and YOKE fittings are marked with a black X or Y in a black circle.

Circle ZEBRA fittings are closed when condition ZEBRA is set. They may be opened with the permission of the CO during extended periods of general quarters for the preparation and distribution of battle messing, to provide access to limited sanitary facilities, to ventilate battle stations, to transit from squadron ready rooms to the flight deck and to allow limited access throughout the ship. Open Circle ZEBRA fittings must be guarded so they can be closed immediately. Circle ZEBRA fittings are marked with a red Z in a red circle.

DOG ZEBRA fittings are secured when condition ZEBRA is set and whenever the ship is darkened, regardless of the material condition that is set. During Darken Ship they are closed to prevent light inside the ship from showing outside. DOG ZEBRA fittings are marked with a red Z in a black D.

WILLIAM fittings are vital sea suctions, CPS zone ventilation fittings valves (serving vital equipment in manned spaces) and valves that must be open to maintain mobility and fire protection. WILLIAM fittings are open during all material conditions. They are secured only to control damage, contamination or to repair equipment served. WILLIAM fittings are marked with a black W.

Circle WILLIAM fittings, like WILLIAM fittings, are normally open, but are secured for protection in attack. Circle WILLIAM fittings are marked with a black W in a black circle.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Carol , it is so sad when people try to explain away what is plainly stated in scripture....

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses Matthew 6:15......

the author and finisher of salvation made that declarative statement, it take someone truly arrogant to say He did not mean what He clearly stated!

If a Brother has a matter against another Brother and takes him to law before the unsaved, instead of settling the matter among believers and be defrauded if necessary, God will set the stage for pay back day. He will discipline a believer who is at fault.

1 Corinthians 6
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
This board is a Christian board so I believe it is proper to correct a brethren on this board. Correction should be said public so that we will know not to make the same mistakes. This is correction among the board members.
betty
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
I don't mean to sound arrogant; please forgive me.

But we cannot mix law and grace. Concerning salvation, it is either one or the other. If works then it is no more grace; if grace then it is no more works. (Romans 11:6)

The New Covenant is death to self vs the self-righteousness of the Old Covenant.

becauseHElives, do you believe that God deals with His people through covenants?

It sounds like he believes God deals with his people through conditions?


Yes, and he keeps changing the conditions. Last week it was repentance.

God gave us one condition for salvation, and that is to be born again of the Holy Spirit.

Our fellowship with God has conditions, our blessings in life have conditions, and our eternal rewards have conditions, but our salvation has only the one.

Regeneration, justification, adoption...all of the great and marvelous truths about our salvation seem to mean nothing to him. He still thinks it's all up to him to do what only God can do.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
This board is a Christian board so I believe it is proper to correct a brethren on this board. Correction should be said public so that we will know not to make the same mistakes. This is correction among the board members.
betty

I agree Betty, but it's unclear who Bloodbought is addressing.
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
quote:
It's unclear who Bloodbought is addressing.

Forgive me.

I was addressing the subject of forgiveness among the Brethern.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Praise to our Father God and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN

[clap2]

A spirit of unforgiveness can become a stronghold of demonic influence, and can cause a believer constant problems and grief and loss.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
I don't mean to sound arrogant; please forgive me.

But we cannot mix law and grace. Concerning salvation, it is either one or the other. If works then it is no more grace; if grace then it is no more works. (Romans 11:6)

The New Covenant is death to self vs the self-righteousness of the Old Covenant.

becauseHElives, do you believe that God deals with His people through covenants?

It sounds like he believes God deals with his people through conditions?


Yes, and he keeps changing the conditions. Last week it was repentance.

God gave us one condition for salvation, and that is to be born again of the Holy Spirit.

Our fellowship with God has conditions, our blessings in life have conditions, and our eternal rewards have conditions, but our salvation has only the one.

Regeneration, justification, adoption...all of the great and marvelous truths about our salvation seem to mean nothing to him. He still thinks it's all up to him to do what only God can do. Or what the Holy Spirit of Christ can do in him and through him.

Must think hes the Commanding Officer of the ship.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Is there anyone here who thinks that we can ignore/neglect the warnings given by Jesus.......and still be eternally secure?

Please answer the question and state your case.

My personal declaration of faith: I believe in Jesus Christ and accept His Word as true and reliable.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
I believe in Jesus Christ and accept His Word as true and reliable.

oneinchrist, either the Lord has saved you and sealed you with the Holy Spirit by grace through faith, or He has not saved you.

Galatians 5:18 (NASB)
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

The solution is not to pit our will against the flesh, but to surrender our will to the Holy Spirit. This verse literally means, “But if you are willingly led by the Spirit, then you are not under the Law.” The Holy Spirit writes God’s Law on our hearts (Heb. 10:14-17; see 2 Cor. 3) so that we desire to obey Him in love. “I delight to do Thy will, O my God: yea, Thy Law is within my heart” (Ps. 40:8). Being “‘led of the Spirit” and “walking in the Spirit” are the opposites of yielding to the desires of the flesh.
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
okay, i have read the post. Someone here needs to show me thru scripture where Forgiveness is keeping the law.

I know we are saved by grace of Yeshua, and He forgave us our trespasses and sins. So are we not also to forgive others or is this being a law-keeper to do so?

I must say that if Yeshua spoke it, i must believe it. Please, no man-made doctrine but scripture only. Thanks
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
No one say you should not forgive. We have just had it up to our necks with Barry pushing his saved by the law and Sabbath worship on this board. He constantly talks down to people and then when asked a direct question that he can't answer he will ignore you or post "Enough said". He is the one who cannot back up his beliefs with Scripture.
betty
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Betty, i am not referring to BarryKind, i am referring to becauseHeLives post on unforgiveness and Caroles response as how forgiveness has something to do with being a law-keeper.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Betty, i am not referring to BarryKind, i am referring to becauseHeLives post on unforgiveness and Caroles response as how forgiveness has something to do with being a law-keeper.

Yahsway. read between the lines and you will learn the intent.

Luv ya. [Wink]

NO POOP

Buy me air conditioned honda.(PI island jungle slang)
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
yasway,
quote:
Betty, i am not referring to BarryKind, i am referring to becauseHeLives post on unforgiveness and Caroles response as how forgiveness has something to do with being a law-keeper.
I didn't mean it that way. Of course we are forgiving, at least under most conditions. All we are taught to do in the Bible aren't just rules to obey, they are words of wisdom that enrich our lives and relationships.

I'm just opposed to adding ANYTHING to the cross of Christ for salvation.

Am I the only one who thinks that becauseHElives made Matthew 6:15 a condition for salvation?
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Carol,
You posted this answer in response to my post:

Galatians 5:18 (NASB)
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law

But we are still under law.......right?
The "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2)

Forgiveness is part of the law of Christ. Wouldnt unforgiveness put into question where we place our faith?

Let me try to make an analogy here.
In the Old testament the law of ten Commandments was delivered to Gods people through His prophet Moses. The Israelites witnessed the lightnings and thunderings and the cloud of God cover Mt. Sinai. Moses came down with the Ten Commandments on stone tablets written by the hand of God.

Now the Israelites had a choice. They could choose to follow after and obey(of course not perfectly, but with a sincere diligent faith)the commands that came from the God who brought them out of bondage, or they could scoff at them and make up their own gods.
If they chose to embrace the commands(as from a loving and faithful God), then their obedience(of course not perfect, but sincere diligence) reflected their trust in God and His Word. If they chose not to cling to and obey Gods commands, it reflected a lack of trust in God and His Word.

Doesnt the same concept apply today?
If we embrace the doctrine that was brought to us by Jesus, it reflects our trust in Him. If we neglect, discard, scoff at, or consider insignificant the doctrine that was brought to us by Jesus, it reflects our lack of trust in Him.

We are warned that if we choose unforgiveness that we can put our own souls in jeopardy. It sounds to me like this warning comes from One who desires to keep us in fellowship with the Father. It sounds to me like this warning is a warning to protect us from the evil one.

Warnings are our friends......warnings are gifts from God........to keep us in the spirit......walking in the light.

My friends.....Dont convenant with the devil! flee unforgiveness, flee bitterness, flee from pride and the vanity of life, flee from the love of money, flee from idols(even people idols), flee from sexual immorality, flee from envy, and draw closer to God in Jesus.

We dont forgive to merit salvation. We forgive becaue we are taught(by Jesus) to forgive, and because we are taught the peril of unforgiveness. Yes, even I forgive because I fear falling into judgement, but my main motivation is Gods love and mercy towards me.

I do not believe that BecauseHElives is saying that we merit salvation by our forgiveness....... but I do believe that he is saying that we can fall from grace by unforgiveness. This seems like a paradox.......but.....possibly not, if one considers that faith and forgiveness have such a close and binding relationship with one another .......such as faith and love are never divorced from each other.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Carol states:

quote:
Am I the only one who thinks that becauseHElives made Matthew 6:15 a condition for salvation?
Yeah Pretty much..

Yahushua made the statement, take it up with the Master Sister//

If one is "born again" and i harbor unforgiveness in my heart, the LORD HIMSELF said if i do not forgive men thier tresspasses, The Lord said he would not forgive me my tresspasses!

Also Yahushua said if i deny Him [yahushua] before men then He [Yahushua] would deny me before the Father!

Thats just plain gospel fact..Sister

I dont know why yall use "grace" of the Master Yahushua as a cloak for every evil work?

Why?

Why do you think that Grace overlooks all things, now im talking about after salvation..

Grace is no license for sin, grace does not stand up for sin, nor condone sin...


Its the WHOLE Gospel my Dear Sister...Being saved does not allow us to walk in the flesh until we die, nor does it contradict YHWH when He said, that HE is not Mocked for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap!

BE NOT WEARY IN WELL doing for in due season you shall REAP...IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF YOU faint NOT!!!

ENDURE TO THE END!...[emp. not shouting at you]

i love you and Betty {Sister Betty that is} and i want yall to see this..Not talking about the Sabbath, in which i previously stated i worship everyday and think everyone should worship everyday...But just "Remember" the Sabbath..any ways dont discount and count as void everything i say because we dont agree about things..check it out sister with a pure heart asking for grace to have a love of the truth..i do about all what yall post..

[hug]
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Yahushua made the statement, take it up with the Master Sister//
Our Lord also said

John 6:40
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Forgiveness is very much a part of our Christian life, and our walk with the Lord. But Matthew 6:15 is not a condition for salvation. We cannot add to the cross of Christ.

I believe that we are saved first, and then the indwelling Holy Spirit helps us to live in a way that is pleasing to our Lord. Other people seem to believe that we are to be good first, and then, if we are good enough, we will be saved.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
barrykind,

quote:
I dont know why yall use "grace" of the Master Yahushua as a cloak for every evil work?

Why?

Why do you think that Grace overlooks all things, now im talking about after salvation..

Grace is no license for sin, grace does not stand up for sin, nor condone sin...


Maybe it would help if you actually read what we post so you can stop accusing us of things we never said.

Why do you think I am doing evil works?
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Brother Daniel states:

quote:
Forgiveness is part of the law of Christ. Wouldnt unforgiveness put into question where we place our faith?


Absolutely my Brother....

Carol, Betty, Bill et,.el; do you think that Stephen was a "coward"????

I dont think so, when they were stoning him to DEATH!!!, TO Death!; and those Pharasee boys knew how to stone, i imagine they carried rocks everywhere they went.

When they were stoning Stephen to Death, Stephen looked up to heaven and say Yahushua [only place in the bible says Yahushua was standing up!]
and Stephen said:

Acts 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


Dont you think Stephen could have grabbed Saul [Paul] by the throat and chocked him to death?
Stephen was "full of the Holy Ghost", and no COWARD!

But that same Saul that held the stoners clothes was Paul the "Apostle" of Grace....

Wake up my beloved children and taste and see that YHWH is GOOD!

Yes Sir Daniel my Brother you have a good handle on what the Lord is teaching..

[hug]
[thumbsup2]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Brother Daniels post:

quote:
Forgiveness is part of the law of Christ. Wouldnt unforgiveness put into question where we place our faith?

Let me try to make an analogy here.
In the Old testament the law of ten Commandments was delivered to Gods people through His prophet Moses. The Israelites witnessed the lightnings and thunderings and the cloud of God cover Mt. Sinai. Moses came down with the Ten Commandments on stone tablets written by the hand of God.

Now the Israelites had a choice. They could choose to follow after and obey(of course not perfectly, but with a sincere diligent faith)the commands that came from the God who brought them out of bondage, or they could scoff at them and make up their own gods.
If they chose to embrace the commands(as from a loving and faithful God), then their obedience(of course not perfect, but sincere diligence) reflected their trust in God and His Word. If they chose not to cling to and obey Gods commands, it reflected a lack of trust in God and His Word.

Doesnt the same concept apply today?
If we embrace the doctrine that was brought to us by Jesus, it reflects our trust in Him. If we neglect, discard, scoff at, or consider insignificant the doctrine that was brought to us by Jesus, it reflects our lack of trust in Him.

We are warned that if we choose unforgiveness that we can put our own souls in jeopardy. It sounds to me like this warning comes from One who desires to keep us in fellowship with the Father. It sounds to me like this warning is a warning to protect us from the evil one.

Warnings are our friends......warnings are gifts from God........to keep us in the spirit......walking in the light.

My friends.....Dont convenant with the devil! flee unforgiveness, flee bitterness, flee from pride and the vanity of life, flee from the love of money, flee from idols(even people idols), flee from sexual immorality, flee from envy, and draw closer to God in Jesus.

We dont forgive to merit salvation. We forgive becaue we are taught(by Jesus) to forgive, and because we are taught the peril of unforgiveness. Yes, even I forgive because I fear falling into judgement, but my main motivation is Gods love and mercy towards me.

I do not believe that BecauseHElives is saying that we merit salvation by our forgiveness....... but I do believe that he is saying that we can fall from grace by unforgiveness. This seems like a paradox.......but.....possibly not, if one considers that faith and forgiveness have such a close and binding relationship with one another .......such as faith and love are never divorced from each other.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Exactly my Precious Brohter Daniel, for the world has not taught you this, but our Father thru His precious Son, Yahushua HaMashiach the Messiah..

[thumbsup2]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Brother Dale states:

quote:
"Lord, you have been kind and forgiving towards me. May I be merciful as you are merciful. Free me from all bitterness and resentment that I may truly forgive from the heart all who may have caused me injury or grief."


Whew i could shout! i KNOW your heart as well as anyman could mybrother Dale...Your a man of integratity that humbly walks with his Lord and saviour Yahushua the Messiah...

We HAVE NO RIGHT TO TAKE UP OUR OWN CAUSE: we are SLAVES to Christ and to HIM alone!

If My precious saviour chooses to take all my children tonight HE IS LORD;if Yahushua sees fit to let me be a martyr for HIM and HIS GLORY, HallaluYAH!

Polycarp was a man of like passions as we ourselves, who when burned at the stake, history teaches that they had to try and light the fire several times, and after his family was martyred, he sang hims and the fire parted, all around him and when Yahushua saw fit, the fire consumed him...what a SWERT smelling savour to the LORD of HOSTS!


amen my Brother..

[clap2]

[wave3]
[hug]
[thumbsup2]
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Thank you Daniel, that is exactly what I was saying....
quote:
We don't forgive to merit salvation. We forgive because we are taught(by Jesus) to forgive, and because we are taught the peril of unforgiveness. Yes, even I forgive because I fear falling into judgment, but my main motivation is Gods love and mercy towards me. I do not believe that BecauseHElives is saying that we merit salvation by our forgiveness....... but I do believe that he is saying that we can fall from grace by unforgiveness. This seems like a paradox.......but.....possibly not, if one considers that faith and forgiveness have such a close and binding relationship with one another .......such as faith and love are never divorced from each other. With love in Christ, Daniel

 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
amen !

[hyper]
[hyper]
[Kiss]
[hug]
[clap2]
[thumbsup2]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
BILLY JOEL WE WILL ALL GO DOWN TOGETHER LYRICS

We met as soul mates on Parris Island
We left as inmates from an asylum
And we were sharp, as sharp as knives
And we were so gung ho to lay down our lives

We came in spastic like tameless horses
We left in plastic as numbered corpses
And we learned fast to travel light
Our arms were heavy but our bellies were tight

We had no home front, we had no soft soap
They sent us Playboy, they gave us Bob Hope
We dug in deep and shot on sight
And prayed to Jesus Christ with all of our might

We had no cameras to shoot the landscape
We passed the hash pipe and played our Doors tapes
And it was dark, so dark at night
And we held on to each other like brother to brother
We promised our mothers we'd write

And we would all go down together
We said we'd all go down together
Yes we would all go down together

Remember Charlie, remember Baker
They left their childhood on every acre
And who was wrong? And who was right?
It didn't matter in the thick of the fight

We held the day in the palm of our hand
They ruled the night, and the night
Seemed to last as long as six weeks...

...On Parris Island
We held the coastline, they held the highlands
And they were sharp, as sharp as knives
They heard the hum of our motors
They counted the rotors
And waited for us to arrive

And we would all go down together
We said we'd all go down together
Yes we would all go down together [Confused] [Confused]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Brother Daniel states:

quote:
We don't forgive to merit salvation. We forgive because we are taught(by Jesus) to forgive, and because we are taught the peril of unforgiveness. Yes, even I forgive because I fear falling into judgment, but my main motivation is Gods love and mercy towards me. I do not believe that BecauseHElives is saying that we merit salvation by our forgiveness....... but I do believe that he is saying that we can fall from grace by unforgiveness. This seems like a paradox.......but.....possibly not, if one considers that faith and forgiveness have such a close and binding relationship with one another .......such as faith and love are never divorced from each other. With love in Christ, Daniel



Yes sir Brother you have a good handle on what the Spirit is saying to the "eklesia" the body of christ, the "church"..
amen


[thumbsup2]
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks....

WildB you quote BILLY JOEL....

this man is not anyone to look up to or listen to....is this the kind of stuff you give your heart to....

he has been divorced 3 times.....

Elizabeth Weber Small/ married September 5, 1973 /divorced on July 20, 1982.

Christie Brinkley / married March 23, 1985. / divorced on August 25, 1994

Katie Lee / married October 2, 2004 /divorced June 17, 2009,

Joel is a long-time supporter of the Democratic Party and has supported Bill Clinton for president, Hillary Clinton for the Senate, and most recently Barack Obama for president.[46] In 2008, Joel played a fund raising concert with Bruce Springsteen in support of Barack Obama.[47]

quote:
being you think so highly of the Apostle Paul you should consider his words.....Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
I like Billy Joel's music. Listening to his music does not mean you support his morals or his political beliefs.

betty
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks....

WildB you quote BILLY JOEL....

this man is not anyone to look up to or listen to....is this the kind of stuff you give your heart to....

he has been divorced 3 times.....

Elizabeth Weber Small/ married September 5, 1973 /divorced on July 20, 1982.

Christie Brinkley / married March 23, 1985. / divorced on August 25, 1994

Katie Lee / married October 2, 2004 /divorced June 17, 2009,

Joel is a long-time supporter of the Democratic Party and has supported Bill Clinton for president, Hillary Clinton for the Senate, and most recently Barack Obama for president.[46] In 2008, Joel played a fund raising concert with Bruce Springsteen in support of Barack Obama.[47]

quote:
being you think so highly of the Apostle Paul you should consider his words.....Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

My my, again you miss the mark while trying to maintain the dark.

My friends that died are my Lords concern and I never looked at a one of them as a reprobate.

They were clay made in Gods very image in a very bad situation.

Reprobates! No sir!

Remember Charlie, remember Baker
They left their childhood on every acre


My brothers in arms and death.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Brother Daniel states:

quote:
We don't forgive to merit salvation. We forgive because we are taught(by Jesus) to forgive, and because we are taught the peril of unforgiveness. Yes, even I forgive because I fear falling into judgment, but my main motivation is Gods love and mercy towards me. I do not believe that BecauseHElives is saying that we merit salvation by our forgiveness....... but I do believe that he is saying that we can fall from grace by unforgiveness. This seems like a paradox.......but.....possibly not, if one considers that faith and forgiveness have such a close and binding relationship with one another .......such as faith and love are never divorced from each other. With love in Christ, Daniel



Yes sir Brother you have a good handle on what the Spirit is saying to the "eklesia" the body of christ, the "church"..

amen


[thumbsup2]

Sorry baseball fans..LOL "eklesia"

Is that like tora tora tora?

Get the marbels out of your mouth ..

speake englash..
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
sounds like something you would hear at a Catholic Church.
People talking above everybody. If your audience doesn't understand what you are saying then you are not getting your point across.
betty
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
sounds like something you would hear at a Catholic Church.
People talking above everybody. If your audience doesn't understand what you are saying then you are not getting your point across.
betty

Why Betty BigL you have a bad condemnatory to hell attitude.

REPENT and be baptized again in the name of the A or B then both.

man some peoples kids?
 
Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
WildB

You made me laugh out loud. Thanks for the laugh. I needed it tonight.
betty
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
WildB

You made me laugh out loud. Thanks for the laugh. I needed it tonight.
betty

It does kinda get funny running the same caribou ruts and trails.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Dale..are these ppl nuts, crazy, off the wall or is it ME?

[Confused] [Confused] [Confused] [Confused] [Confused] [Confused] [Confused] [Confused]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by barrykind:
Dale..are these ppl nuts, crazy, off the wall or is it ME?



 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
quote:
I like Billy Joel's music. Listening to his music does not mean you support his morals or his political beliefs.

Ephesians 5

3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Betty, you think it OK to partake of Billy Joel's life through his music... I never even heard of him till tonight and what little I know about him, I know I want nothing to do with him....

you think rock and roll music tends to promote or assist an atmosphere conducive to of the Holy Spirit?

my Bible tells me to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Paul is talking to those who do not obey the Gospel!
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Wild guy and Betty, eklesia is not even a word - it has no meaning. But ekklesia means called out ones. It can be the church or any other assembly.

In barrykind and becauseHElives case, it apparently means legalists vs. rotten, no good, evil doing believers of Eternal Security.

They demand absolute perfection of others even knowing that no one is perfect, including themselves.

becauseHElives, you emphasize the importance of forgiveness, then almost immediately demonstrate an unforgiving spirit toward a singer and those who like his music. barry refused to forgive a typing mistake. You're unforgiving of every church, preacher and teacher who interpret scripture differently than you do, or who don't live by your standards. If you're going to write about forgiveness, you need to be forgiving yourself.

Our Lord Jesus spent time with sinners, forgiving and teaching them.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Carol,
You posted this answer in response to my post:

Galatians 5:18 (NASB)
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law

But we are still under law.......right?
The "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2)

Forgiveness is part of the law of Christ. Wouldnt unforgiveness put into question where we place our faith?

Let me try to make an analogy here.
In the Old testament the law of ten Commandments was delivered to Gods people through His prophet Moses. The Israelites witnessed the lightnings and thunderings and the cloud of God cover Mt. Sinai. Moses came down with the Ten Commandments on stone tablets written by the hand of God.

Now the Israelites had a choice. They could choose to follow after and obey(of course not perfectly, but with a sincere diligent faith)the commands that came from the God who brought them out of bondage, or they could scoff at them and make up their own gods.
If they chose to embrace the commands(as from a loving and faithful God), then their obedience(of course not perfect, but sincere diligence) reflected their trust in God and His Word. If they chose not to cling to and obey Gods commands, it reflected a lack of trust in God and His Word.

Doesnt the same concept apply today?
If we embrace the doctrine that was brought to us by Jesus, it reflects our trust in Him. If we neglect, discard, scoff at, or consider insignificant the doctrine that was brought to us by Jesus, it reflects our lack of trust in Him.

We are warned that if we choose unforgiveness that we can put our own souls in jeopardy. It sounds to me like this warning comes from One who desires to keep us in fellowship with the Father. It sounds to me like this warning is a warning to protect us from the evil one.

Warnings are our friends......warnings are gifts from God........to keep us in the spirit......walking in the light.

My friends.....Dont convenant with the devil! flee unforgiveness, flee bitterness, flee from pride and the vanity of life, flee from the love of money, flee from idols(even people idols), flee from sexual immorality, flee from envy, and draw closer to God in Jesus.

We dont forgive to merit salvation. We forgive becaue we are taught(by Jesus) to forgive, and because we are taught the peril of unforgiveness. Yes, even I forgive because I fear falling into judgement, but my main motivation is Gods love and mercy towards me.

I do not believe that BecauseHElives is saying that we merit salvation by our forgiveness....... but I do believe that he is saying that we can fall from grace by unforgiveness. This seems like a paradox.......but.....possibly not, if one considers that faith and forgiveness have such a close and binding relationship with one another .......such as faith and love are never divorced from each other.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Galatians 5:18 (NASB)
But if you are led by the Spirit , you are not under the Law

We forgive because the Holy Spirit of Christ lives within us. We obey the law of Christ because His Spirit lives within us. We will never fall into judgment or fall from grace when we are led by the Spirit.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
quote:
We forgive because the Holy Spirit of Christ lives within us. We obey the law of Christ because His Spirit lives within us. We will never fall into judgment or fall from grace when we are led by the Spirit.
exactly the point Carol....no one falls from Grace when walking after the Spirit but there are no robots in Yahweh's Kingdom, the believer still has the chose to walk after the Spirit or not ...

the believer is free to walk away...

Yahweh will not force anyone too do anything!

abiding is a conscious decision on the believers part everyday.

Yahweh does not force anyone to pray....
Yahweh does not force anyone to read the scriptures...
Yahweh does not force anyone to meditate on His word....
Yahweh does not force anyone to think on things that are true, things are honest, things are just, things are pure, things are lovely, things are of good report; virtue, praise, ....
each individual believer must consciously every day make those choices!

other wise all the instruction of scripture is useless.

if you or I teaches something that offends one of these little ones that believe in Yahshua, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

that does not sound like loss of reward to me...that warning is serious!
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
barrykind,

About Matthew 6:15

quote:
Yahushua made the statement, take it up with the Master Sister//
I did Mister. He said, "I love you."

We love, because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)
We forgive, because He first forgave us. (Ephesians 1:7}

quote:
If one is "born again" and i harbor unforgiveness in my heart, the LORD HIMSELF said if i do not forgive men thier tresspasses, The Lord said he would not forgive me my tresspasses!
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:22-23)

quote:
Also Yahushua said if i deny Him [yahushua] before men then He [Yahushua] would deny me before the Father!

Thats just plain gospel fact..Sister

So is this:

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. (Philippians 1:21)

quote:
I dont know why yall use "grace" of the Master Yahushua as a cloak for every evil work?

Why?

Why do you think that Grace overlooks all things, now im talking about after salvation..

Grace is no license for sin, grace does not stand up for sin, nor condone sin...

And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things deserve to be condemned. (Romans 3:8 NLT)

quote:
Its the WHOLE Gospel my Dear Sister...Being saved does not allow us to walk in the flesh until we die, nor does it contradict YHWH when He said, that HE is not Mocked for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap!
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22-25)

quote:
BE NOT WEARY IN WELL doing for in due season you shall REAP...IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF YOU faint NOT!!!

ENDURE TO THE END!...[emp. not shouting at you]

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (Romans 3:21-24)
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
We forgive because the Holy Spirit of Christ lives within us. We obey the law of Christ because His Spirit lives within us. We will never fall into judgment or fall from grace when we are led by the Spirit.
exactly the point Carol....no one falls from Grace when walking after the Spirit but there are no robots in Yahweh's Kingdom, the believer still has the chose to walk after the Spirit or not ...

the believer is free to walk away...

Yahweh will not force anyone too do anything!

abiding is a conscious decision on the believers part everyday.

Yahweh does not force anyone to pray....
Yahweh does not force anyone to read the scriptures...
Yahweh does not force anyone to meditate on His word....
Yahweh does not force anyone to think on things that are true, things are honest, things are just, things are pure, things are lovely, things are of good report; virtue, praise, ....
each individual believer must consciously every day make those choices!

other wise all the instruction of scripture is useless.

if you or I teaches something that offends one of these little ones that believe in Yahshua, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

that does not sound like loss of reward to me...that warning is serious!

becauseHElives,

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit. God OWNS us; we are His slaves, and we are His children. The Holy Spirit is God’s seal on His people, His claim on us as His very own. No one can break the seal of God.

What about free will? We used our free will when we chose to put our faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. We were reborn into the family of God.

If you are going to say that you don't yet have the seal and you won't receive salvation until you have endured to the end, then remember this: if you don't have the Holy Spirit of Christ within you, if you are not yet sealed by the Spirit, then you are not one of His.

Why all this talk about forcing us to pray and so on? Do you not LOVE Him? Why in the world would a born again Christian teach something to offend a little one who loves Him? That warning is for unbelievers who teach believing children to be atheists. (I hope Darwin spends eternity measuring bird beaks).
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Because says "Betty, you think it OK to partake of Billy Joel's life through his music... I never even heard of him till tonight and what little I know about him, I know I want nothing to do with him...."

My such a forgiving spirit we are showing the baseball fans.

It is good are Lord don't think like u Hum?

or do you think your stone throwing arm is progressively better than others?
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
quote:
Why all this talk about forcing us to pray and so on?
because salvation is not instant, it is progressive...believer still have the free will to choose to follow or not follow, to deny Yahshua or turn their back on Him when persecution comes...

Because He is Eternal and a believer is only eternal when abiding in Him...

quote:
Do you not LOVE Him?
Yes I love Him but I know it is possible to leave my first love....Yet I have this one thing against you that you have left your first love. Rev. 2

23Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

choices Carol Choices....

quote:
Why in the world would a born again Christian teach something to offend a little one who loves Him?
That what this discussion is about....one of us is wrong and who ever is wrong is in serious trouble with the Lord because we can not both be right....

you see all the warning in the scripture as loss of rewards...I would not give it a second thought if it was just about losing rewards....

I did not make Yahshua Lord of my life to get rewards....
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
Why all this talk about forcing us to pray and so on?
because salvation is not instant, it is progressive...believer still have the free will to choose to follow or not follow, to deny Yahshua or turn their back on Him when persecution comes...

Because He is Eternal and a believer is only eternal when abiding in Him...

quote:
Do you not LOVE Him?
Yes I love Him but I know it is possible to leave my first love....Yet I have this one thing against you that you have left your first love. Rev. 2

23Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

choices Carol Choices....

quote:
Why in the world would a born again Christian teach something to offend a little one who loves Him?
That what this discussion is about....one of us is wrong and who ever is wrong is in serious trouble with the Lord because we can not both be right....

you see all the warning in the scripture as loss of rewards...I would not give it a second thought if it was just about losing rewards....

I did not make Yahshua Lord of my life to get rewards....

Humm progressive salvation. Now thats a teachin Im a going to bottle and sell.

Repent while the day is yet called day.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
quote:
Because said "no one falls from Grace when walking after the Spirit"

AFTER? Do u not mean in? After means you are not in?

WildB I did not know you did not except the King James version...that was what I was quoting....

Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
Because said "no one falls from Grace when walking after the Spirit"

AFTER? Do u not mean in? After means you are not in?

WildB I did not know you did not except the King James version...that was what I was quoting....

Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You try so hard. Didint you read "in Christ Jesus"

is first in the sentence read.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Progressive salvation refers to the journey of a believer between conversion and death. It is the only path that leads to eternal life (Romans 6:20-23), and is walked by faith alone, in the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8, Galatians 3:2-5). It contains bumps and struggles and setbacks, but is marked by growth in love for others and for God. It involves a fight of faith, a striving for peace and holiness (Hebrews 12:14, 1 John 1:9), and a reoccurring approach of the throne of grace (Hebrews 4:16). "[O]ur Lord Jesus Christ... will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Corinthians 1:7-9) Perseverance of the saints
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Progressive salvation refers to the journey of a believer between conversion and death. It is the only path that leads to eternal life (Romans 6:20-23), and is walked by faith alone, in the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8, Galatians 3:2-5). It contains bumps and struggles and setbacks, but is marked by growth in love for others and for God. It involves a fight of faith, a striving for peace and holiness (Hebrews 12:14, 1 John 1:9), and a reoccurring approach of the throne of grace (Hebrews 4:16). "[O]ur Lord Jesus Christ... will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Corinthians 1:7-9) Perseverance of the saints

You try so hard. Salvation is not progressive, but sanctification is.

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:

quote:
because salvation is not instant, it is progressive...believer still have the free will to choose to follow or not follow, to deny Yahshua or turn their back on Him when persecution comes...
Progressive salvation is not what you think it is. It means we are saved from the penalty of sin when we receive Christ, we are being saved from the power of sin throughout life, and we will one day be saved from the presence of sin.

quote:
Because He is Eternal and a believer is only eternal when abiding in Him...

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them , and they will never perish ; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

I and the Father are one. (John 10:27-30)

quote:
Yes I love Him but I know it is possible to leave my first love....Yet I have this one thing against you that you have left your first love. Rev. 2

23Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

choices Carol Choices....

The man, who asked the unanswerable question, “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?” was murdered because of his love for Christ. “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered” (Romans 8: 36; Psalm 44:12).

Paul is emphatic in his statement that nothing in life or death can separate us from the love of Christ. To live is Christ and to die is gain.

quote:
That what this discussion is about....one of us is wrong and who ever is wrong is in serious trouble with the Lord because we can not both be right....

you see all the warning in the scripture as loss of rewards...I would not give it a second thought if it was just about losing rewards....

I did not make Yahshua Lord of my life to get rewards....

I did not make Him Lord of my life at all. He already was, is, and always shall be Lord. All we can do is realize that He is the Lord and we are sinners, confess and repent, and put our faith in Him. But I get your point about rewards, until I learned that the reward is to spend eternity closer to Him.

I serve Him because I love Him. I think you serve Him to earn salvation, which is legalism, and is really serving yourself.


 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Wildb read the whole sentence not part of the sentence...it is what they call in English "a complete sentence"

To be grammatically complete, a sentence must have a subject, verb, and present a complete
thought.

A sentence fragment is part of a sentence presented as if it were a complete sentence.

"in Christ Jesus" is a fragment of a sentence....


Fragments are considered grammatically unacceptable because they only present a “fragment” of a
thought, thus confusing the reader and making communication ineffective.

but then that how you communicate isn't it , in fragments but the scriptures must be taken as a whole not a fragment!

again ...the whole sentence reads....There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
"[O]ur Lord Jesus Christ... will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Corinthians 1:7-9)

Exactly!

Here is more of the article you quoted. I think you misunderstood the meaning of progressive salvation. You confuse it with sanctification.

SALVATION

In theology, the study of salvation is called soteriology, from the Greek soteria meaning "salvation". Salvation, virtually synonymous with the overall concept of redemption, includes a past, present, and future sense. As Christians, we were saved from the penalty of sin when God brought us to faith in Christ; we are presently being saved from the power of sin as the Holy Spirit sanctifies us; and we will someday be saved from the presence of sin when we meet Christ face to face in glory. This idea is presented below in terms of initial, progressive, and final salvation.

Initial salvation

Initial salvation refers to the event of a person's conversion. If you repent of your sin and turn in faith to Christ as Lord and Savior, your sins are immediately forgiven, your fight of faith has begun, and your future in Christ is secured forever. "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13) "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:3-7)

Progressive salvation

Progressive salvation refers to the journey of a believer between conversion and death. It is the only path that leads to eternal life (Romans 6:20-23), and is walked by faith alone, in the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8, Galatians 3:2-5). It contains bumps and struggles and setbacks, but is marked by growth in love for others and for God. It involves a fight of faith, a striving for peace and holiness (Hebrews 12:14, 1 John 1:9), and a reoccurring approach of the throne of grace (Hebrews 4:16). "[O]ur Lord Jesus Christ... will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Corinthians 1:7-9)

Final salvation

Final salvation refers to the event of God saving his people at the final judgment.


http://www.theopedia.com/Salvation

I would add that final salvation occurs when we are forever saved from the presence of sin and Satan is forever cast into the lake of fire.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Wildb read the whole sentence not part of the sentence...it is what they call in English "a complete sentence"

To be grammatically complete, a sentence must have a subject, verb, and present a complete
thought.

A sentence fragment is part of a sentence presented as if it were a complete sentence.

"in Christ Jesus" is a fragment of a sentence....


Fragments are considered grammatically unacceptable because they only present a “fragment” of a
thought, thus confusing the reader and making communication ineffective.

but then that how you communicate isn't it , in fragments but the scriptures must be taken as a whole not a fragment!

again ...the whole sentence reads....There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You try sooo hard to be a man. Where is this in that?

"falls from Grace"

Its what you ADDED.

quote:
Because said "no one falls from Grace when walking after the Spirit"

AFTER? Do u not mean in? After means you are not in?
WildB I did not know you did not except the King James version...that was what I was quoting....

Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


One falls from Grace by returning to the Law.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
1) And to the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2) Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4) Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.
6) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
-Revelation 3:1-6

One point that most people miss here is that for your name to be blotted out of the Book of Life it first had to be in there, in other words you were saved at one point.

Unconditional eternal security believers will try and tell you that those people were never truly saved in the first place.

That argument does not hold water because you cannot get your name into the Book of Life unless you are saved.

If your name can be taken out of the Book of Life then you can lose you salvation, it's that simple.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
One point that most people miss here is that for your name to be blotted out of the Book of Life it first had to be in there, in other words you were saved at one point.

Unconditional eternal security believers will try and tell you that those people were never truly saved in the first place.

That argument does not hold water because you cannot get your name into the Book of Life unless you are saved.

If your name can be taken out of the Book of Life then you can lose you salvation, it's that simple.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."


Everyone ever born starts out in the Book of Life. But only believers in Christ are in the Lamb's Book of Life.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
What Does The Bible Say About The Book of Life?

The Book of Life is the book in which appears the name of every person who is born. The Lamb's Book of Life is the book in which appears the name of every person who has been born again, spiritually speaking, who has been saved through the blood of the Lamb, the Lord Jesus Christ. These are not actually books, but God speaks to man in the language that he can understand. To say that our names are in these books is to say that we are in the mind of God. When do our names appear in these books? The answer is found in Psalm 139:16:


"Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance;
And in thy book they were all written,
Even the days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was none of them."


Also in Revelation 13:8 we find that, in the foreknowledge and omniscience of God, our names appeared in these books "from the foundation of the world."

The Book of Life is mentioned in Psalm 69:28, along with the Lamb's Book. Through the law of double reference, the plea of David blends into that of the Lord Jesus Christ in verses 19 to 28. Speaking of the leaders, the authorities, such as Caiaphas, who perpetrated His arrest and crucifixion, He pleads:


27 "Add iniquity unto their iniquity;
And let them not come into thy righteousness,
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of life,
And not be written with the righteous."


This passage reveals that names can be blotted out of the Book of Life. We know that none can be blotted out of the Lamb's Book, because no one who has been saved is ever lost. In this passage, then, the plea is made that these wicked ones have their names removed from the Book of Life that they never have salvation-never have their names enrolled with the righteous in the Lamb's Book. This prayer is not contradictory to the prayer on the cross, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." As this prayer clearly indicates, it is for those who in ignorance were led to join in the cry, "Crucify him; crucify him." It is not for those in authority who knowingly and willfully perpetrated the most heinous crime in all history.

The Book of Life is mentioned in Revelation, chapter 3:

"4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

This passage shows that the righteous will have their names retained in the Book of Life. From the statement that the Lord Jesus will confess the names of these persons before God Father, we know that their names are also in the Lamb's Book of Life.

In Revelation 13:8 we learn that during the Tribulation all those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will worship the Antichrist: "And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain."

Lastly we learn of the Book of Life in Revelation 20:11-15, the judgment of the Great White Throne, before which only the wicked will appear:

"11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. 15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

To summarize, every one has his name written in the "Book of life". The wicked will have their names blotted out of this book. The righteous, the born-again believers, have their names written in the Book of Life and in the Lamb's Book, and they will never have their names blotted out of either one.

http://www.biblicalresearch.info/page287.html
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Carol that is a poor interpretation of scripture...there are not two different books of Life , there is only one...

Phl 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life.

Lamb's Book of Life and Book of Life are the same book!
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Lamb's Book of Life and Book of Life are the same book!
No they are not. Every person's name is in the Book of Life until he dies, and if he has not given his life to Christ then he is blotted out. In the end they will be the same because only those redeemed by Christ, who are in the Lamb's Book of Life, will live and be in the Book of Life.

In Revelation 13:8 and 21:27, we find the references to the "Lamb's book of life," in which are the names of all those who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ.

If the names of believers are written from the foundation of the world, and if God knows all things, why would He enter the name of somebody who would one day fall and have to be removed from the book? We are enrolled in heaven because we have been born again (Heb. 12:23), and no matter how disobedient a child may be, he or she cannot be "unborn."

As unbelievers die, their names are removed from the book; thus, at the final judgment, the book contains only the names of believers (Rev. 20:12-15). It then becomes "the Lamb's Book of Life" (Rev. 21:27), because only those saved by the Lord Jesus Christ have their names in it. All the others have been blotted out, something God would never do for any true child of God (see Ex. 32:32; Rom. 9:3). It is a book of life, and lost sinners are dead (Eph. 2:1).
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
quote:
WildB said..... One falls from Grace by returning to the Law.
The Apostle Paul says......13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Paul is saying the same thing James is saying...

James 1...

22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
1.Philippians 4:3 (Whole Chapter)
And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.


2.Revelation 3:5 (Whole Chapter)
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


3.Revelation 13:8 (Whole Chapter)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


4.Revelation 17:8 (Whole Chapter)
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


5.Revelation 20:12 (Whole Chapter)
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


6.Revelation 20:15 (Whole Chapter)
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


7.Revelation 21:27 (Whole Chapter)
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


8.Revelation 22:19 (Whole Chapter)
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
WildB said..... One falls from Grace by returning to the Law.
The Apostle Paul says......13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


Dale Please stop your sillyness.

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Is there a difference between the “book of life” and the “Lamb’s book of life”?
The “book of life” is mentioned in Philippians 4:3 and in Revelation 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12,15; 21:27. It is called the “Lamb’s book of life” (the Lamb is Jesus) in Revelation 13:8 and 21:27. There appears to be no distinction between the “book of life” and the “Lamb’s book of life”. It is described as a book where the names of the faithful are written.

While the phrase “book of life” is not found in the Old Testament, the idea of a book where God has written the names of faithful people is found, for example, in Exodus 32:32-33; Psalm 69:28; Daniel 12:1; and Malachi 3:16. I think the book is symbolic rather than literal. The idea is that God knows who you are and what sort of person you are. If your name is in his book of life, then you have a place in his kingdom.
.

http://bibleq.info/answer/960/
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Things to read and think about:

Are the tree of life and the Lamb’s book of life the same?
There are no Bible passages suggesting that the tree of life is the same thing as the Lamb’s book of life. By looking at scriptures that talk about them individually we can conclude that they are different. The tree of life is a divine source of eternal life and the Lamb’s book of life is a record of those who will be given eternal life.

The Tree of Life
The tree of life is only mentioned in 3 books of the Bible. We first come across it in Genesis 2:

“And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” Genesis 2:9

The tree of life is described as a real, physical tree that God created. It would appear that Adam and Eve were allowed to eat from the tree (Genesis 2:16-17), but there is no actual record of them doing so. Genesis 3:22 reveals that eating fruit from the tree would make the eater live for ever. After ‘The Fall’, the tree was to be guarded from the reach of sinful humanity (Genesis 3:24).

The expression ‘tree of life’ is mentioned four times in the book of Proverbs (Proverbs 3:18, 11:30, 13:12 & 15:4). The book of Proverbs often uses imagery to make a point. In Proverbs the ‘tree of life’ (not necessarily the literal tree) is linked with wisdom, the fruit of the righteous, fulfilled desire and a gentle tongue.

The tree of life makes its last appearance in the book of Revelation. Jesus uses symbolic language when telling believers about the reward of eternal life:

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.” Revelation 2:7

The tree of life’s final mention is in the last chapter of the Bible:

“Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.” Revelation 22:2 (It is also mentioned in Revelation 22:14 & 19)

The tree could well be a literal tree upon the earth in the future Kingdom of God. Alternatively, as the book of Revelation uses symbolic language, its mention could represent the divine source of eternal life; offered to the faithful in the future age.

The Book of Life
The term ‘book of life’ (or ‘book of the living’) is only recorded in 3 books of the Bible. However, there are a number of other passages that would seem to refer to it. Its first occurrence is found when Moses asks God to forgive the people for making the golden calf idol:

“Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold. But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” But the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.” Exodus 32:31-33

The book of life may be a real physical book — but it does not need to be. It could be symbolic language referring to a record of the names of those who will be delivered from eternal death. It’s interesting to note that God and Moses imply that the names have already been written in the book (see Revelation 13:8, 17:8), yet there is the potential for names to be removed.

Other references to the book of life include Psalm 69:28, Daniel 12:1-2 and Philippians 4:3. Was Jesus referring to the book of life when he said the following to his disciples?

“…rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” Luke 10:20

Like the tree of life, the book of life, is mentioned by Jesus in Revelation. It is part of the symbolic language that he uses to describe the reward of the faithful:

“The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.” Revelation 3:5

In Revelation the book of life is associated with the Lamb (Revelation 13:8, 21:27) — the Lord Jesus Christ — God’s appointed judge (2 Timothy 4:1). At the final judgement, the book of life will be opened (Revelation 20:11-15) and those whose names are recorded therein will be given eternal life and enjoy fellowship with God.
.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
WildB said..... One falls from Grace by returning to the Law.
Paul is saying the same thing James is saying...

James 1...

22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

JAMES 1

James 1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


All SCRIPTURE IS FOR US BUT NOT ALL TO US.

Learn to rightly divide.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
i have never heard that the "Book of Life" and the "Lambs Book of Life were two (2) different books Carol?

Where do you get that notion?

Carol States:

quote:

posted October 26, 2010 04:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No they are not. A person's name is in the Book of Life until he dies, and if he has not given his life to Christ then he is blotted out. In the end they will be the same because only those redeemed by Christ will live and be in the Book of Life.

In Revelation 13:8 and 21:27, we find the references to the "Lamb's book of life," in which are the names of all those who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ.



Where do you get your understanding in scripture for that Sister?

[Bible]
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
The Book Of Life
The book of life has stirred the curiosity of many students of the Bible. In particular, the scriptures say that...

Disciples of Christ have their names recorded in heaven (Luke 10:20b).


Members of the church have their names written in heaven (Hebrews 12:23a).


Paul’s fellow servants had their names written in the book of life (Philippians 4:3).
Thus, most of those in the religious world believe the book of life is the heavenly register of the redeemed. This certainly seems to be the correct interpretation in view of Revelation 20:15, which says that on the day of judgment anyone whose name is not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Up to this point, most of our denominational friends would agree with us concerning these comments. But, at this point, a clear cut dichotomy occurs. Many believe that once one’s name is enrolled in the book of life nothing can happen that would cause it to be erased. This belief is commonly referred to as “Once saved, always saved.”


One reason this teaching has arisen is because our religious friends have failed to deal properly with Revelation 3:5. A quotation from a discussion under the heading “Book of Life” in the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia (Moody Press, Vol. 2, page 1038) illustrates this point:

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Rev. 3:5 also speaks of being blotted out of the book of life, meaning here the list of the saved. Some say that such a blotting out is possible and implied. But that a saved person could thus lose his salvation is felt by many to contradict those passages which teach the security of the believer in Christ. Consequently, these interpreters have taken one of the following approaches: (1) Rev. 3:5 does not explicitly say that anyone’s name will be blotted out; (2) this register originally has everyone’s name on it, but when a person finally rejects Christ his name is blotted out; (3) the book of life in Rev. 3:5 is the register of profession from which names will be erased, whereas the Lamb’s book of life (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:12,15; 21:27 referring to the Lamb’s book of life though not specifically so called in every verse) contains only the names of genuine believers from which no names can be erased.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is apparent that many of our denominational friends will believe whatever they want to believe in spite of what the Bible says. Consider now, carefully, the passage under discussion:


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And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; these things said He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; “I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember, therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come upon thee as a thief, and thou shatl not know the hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches” (Revelation 3:1-6).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, true to form, the Westminister Confession of Faith, which was written in 1643, says:


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They whom God has accepted can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace: but shall certainly preserve therein to the end and be eternally saved (Henry Bitterson, Documents of the Christian Church, London: Oxford University Press, 1963, page 347).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Similarly, Sam Morris, pastor of the First Baptist Church in Stamford, Texas, said it this way:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We take the position that a Christian’s sins do not damn his soul! ...[A]ll the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger. ...The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul (Morris, A Discussion Which Involves a Subject Pertinent to All Men, pages 1-2).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, if a man can understand anything, then he ought to understand that Revelation 3:5 teaches, by necessary inference, that the Lord can, and will, blot out the names of all who will not overcome through His blood. Therefore, we appeal to our denominational friends to seriously consider the problem of harmonizing the passage under consideration with the teaching of “Once saved, always saved.” Considering this difficulty, we encourage you to study the various warnings to the saints found in 2 Thessalonians 2:3; Hebrews 12:15; 2 Peter 1:9; 2 Peter 3:14; Galatians 5:4; James 5:19; 1 Timothy 5:15; 1 Corinthians 8:11; 2 Peter 2:15-22; 1 Peter 5:8; 1 Corinthians 9:27; Revelation 22:19; and Matthew 25:30. We then encourage you to “know the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 3:15).
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
THE BOOK OF BOOKS

"And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" (Rev. 20:12).

We believe there are three sets of books made reference to here by the Apostle John. The statement "the books were opened" includes the 66 Books of the Bible and the books that record the deeds of the unsaved. The third book that is opened is the book of life.

According to the Apostle Paul, "God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel" (Rom. 2:16). Here we learn that the written Word of God will play a prominent role in the sentencing phase of those who reject the gospel. But in what sense is the unbeliever judged according to Paul's gospel, especially since many in the sea of humanity standing before God lived prior to the administration of Grace? How can they be held responsible for a revelation that they never heard? Simple! The answer lies in the mystery of the gospel. The secret of the gospel, which is Calvary, was first revealed to Paul. At God's appointed time it was made known in Paul's epistles that Christ died for the sins of the world—past, present and future. This is the foundation of all of God's good news down through the ages and the ages to come.

Stam gives this insightful response:

"The answer is that Christ was to die for sin and that on this basis God could justly accept those who approached Him in the way that He had prescribed....Thus, the judgment of the Great White Throne will be presided over by the One who died for our sins and will proceed on the basis of the good news proclaimed by Paul, that through the death of Christ for sin, salvation is, and always has been essentially by grace, through faith; that never in any age has salvation been denied to one person who has taken God at His Word and has approached Him by faith the way that He prescribed."1

The Books of the Bible reveal the mind and will of God in each dispensation; therefore, they will serve as the final authority in the sentencing of the unsaved. For example, those who lived under the law will be judged by the law (Rom. 2:12). Since both the saved and unsaved failed miserably under the Mosaic system, the issue for the unbelieving will not be if they consistently kept every detail of the law, but did they respond to God in faith. The piercing gaze of the One who sits on the throne will bring to light that they blatantly rejected the counsel of God and went about to establish their own righteousness. The self-righteous ways of those who lived under this system will ultimately condemn them and demonstrate their lack of faith.

"And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" (Rev. 20:12).

Interestingly, all of the future judgments of God are a review of works. For the believer, our rewards, crowns, and reigning position with Christ will be determined by our conduct and good works after we were saved. The works of the unbeliever will be reviewed as well to ascertain the degree of punishment they will endure throughout eternity in the lake of fire. Nothing has escaped the all-seeing eye of Almighty God. In preparation of that day, a meticulous record is being kept of the unrighteous acts of the unsaved.

Seeing that unbelievers are judged according to their works, some evil deeds will carry a greater penalty than others. The same is true in the affairs of men. A man who steals from his employer is likely to be placed on probation and have to pay restitution, while a man who commits an armed robbery at a bank is given prison time. The penalty always matches the violation, or at least this is the intent of the law. In God's court of justice perfect retribution will be paid. "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord!" The atrocities of evil men and the corrupt influences that remained after their death will be carefully weighed out on the scales of God's justice and they will suffer the degree of punishment that is equal to their sins.

"And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life" (Rev. 20:12).

The subject of the "book of life" has suffered greatly at the hands of well-meaning Bible teachers. The traditional interpretation goes something like this: when a sinner trusts Christ as his personal Savior the angels in heaven write his name in the book of life and seal it there with the blood of Christ. But does this interpretation pass the Berean test? We believe just the opposite is true. Clearly the Scriptures teach that from the foundation of the world every name has been recorded in the book of life. God has made reservations for all! When the enemies of David sought to trouble him, he lifted his voice to God with these words:

"Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into Thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous" (Psa. 69:27,28).

David was so perplexed over the actions of the unrighteous who were hindering the plans and purposes of God that he prayed God would blot them out of the book of life and not allow their names to be written alongside of the righteous. Obviously the names of the unrighteous appear in the book for there to be the possibility to blot them out. Once again, God has made a provision for all to be saved on the basis of the shed blood of Christ, but only those who believe the gospel in whatever age they lived will receive the benefit of His once-for-all sacrifice.

If a sinner dies in his sins having rejected the three witnesses of God: creation, conscience, and the Word of God, his name is blotted out of the book of the living. This will serve as a testimony against the unsaved because their names will not be found in the book of life at that day. Those who are cast into the lake of fire will be haunted for eternity by that blank space where their name once appeared. If only I had believed!!! Beloved, have we faithfully upheld our responsibility to warn them of this peril?
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Just as Stam believes there are "3 sets of books" so to do the Jewish people believe in 3 books.

Now this is only my opinion for now as i have not done enough study on this subject but i believe there is the Book of Life which is a record of everyone born on this earth physically.

I also believe there is the Lambs book of Life of everyone that is born again, born from above, a spiritual birth.

I will continue to study more on this subject.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
barrykind

quote:
have never heard that the "Book of Life" and the "Lambs Book of Life were two (2) different books Carol?

Where do you get that notion?

barry, I don't think of them as actual, physical books. God doesn't need to use books. They represent realities. Everyone ever born is in the Book of Life - their life is a reality. When someone dies as an unbeliever, his name is blotted out of the Book of Life - he is no longer alive.

When a person comes to Christ, he is then in the Lamb's Book of Life. Life in Christ is the believer's new reality.

At the final judgment, all the unbelievers will be dead, so the Book of Life will have only the names of believers in it. Their names will also be in the Lamb's Book. Their reality is that they are alive with eternal life, and they are believers.

The Book of Life and the Lamb's Book will be the same.

Remember, after His crucifixion, Christ redeemed all the Old Testament saints, so they are also believers in Christ.

Human reality is that we are either alive in the world and we have eternal life in Christ, or we die as unbelievers.

The BOOK OF LIFE

The Bible mentions various books, Num. 14, the Book of the Wars of the Lord, Ps 69:28 and Isa. 4:3 Book of the Living; Mal 3:16, Book of Remembrance, Rev. 20-12, Lamb's Book of Life. There are also many books in keeping the record of an individuals life.

Exod. 32:33: "And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." If one dies without forgiveness of their sins their name vanishes out of the record book of life.

Ps. 139:16: "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." God knows who are his, even before they are born, everyone who lives is written in the book of life.

The book of life is a old and new testament doctrine. Phil 4:3 Paul recognized those who labored with him in the gospel, 'with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life. "

Rev.3:5: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." We overcome by our faith which is exhibited by faithfulness.

The Bible teaches there are three different kinds of death

1) dead in trespasses and sins- we are spiritually dead and severed from a relationship of the true God while we are living because of our sinful condition. "And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses." (Col 2:13-14;Eph.2:1) 1 Tim 5:7 "But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (speaking of being separated from God).

2) physical death- that is the consequence of sins. Rom.3:23 "the wages of sin is death.” (Rom.5) James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead..."

God's solution is the resurrection to eternal life 1 Thess. 4:16-17: " For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Rev. 2:11: "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."

Rev. 20:6: "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

3) the 2nd death- eternal separation from God in both body and spirit.

The second death is the final consequence of refusing the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is in reference to having no change, being eternally permanent after they are resurrected. Unbelievers are resurrected brought before the throne and judged, to be sentenced in both body and spirit. All unbelievers from the beginning of time began are resurrected put back in their bodies and then put in the lake of fire in which they will now suffer in both the soul and body forever continuing in even a worse state.

The Book of life- is a record of everyone born

If a person dies as a believer his name is retained in the book of life, if he dies unsaved he is blotted out. Ps. 69:28: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living and not be written with the righteous."

The righteous are those who obeyed by having faith in the gospel.

Rev.13:8: "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Those who were not born again will not worship Jesus Christ but the false Messiah during the tribulation period when he is revealed.

Rev.17:8:..."and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world."

Both these scriptures show that everyone not in the Lambs book of Life will follow the Beast, yet they are found in the book of Life that records everyone who is born. How do we reconcile this with it saying, anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)

Daniel also prophesied the judgment with books open. Dan 7:10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. Also in Dan.12 he mentions a time when Israel will be delivered and there will be those found written in the book. ( a reference to judgment probably of the just and unjust, as he states their position in the resurrection.)

Rev.20:12-15: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

What are the things which were written in the books.” These books record everything we have done (every idle word spoken relating to God and Jesus). The other books mentioned are the biographies of the individual. The times they heard the Gospel and rejected it, their good and bad deeds that will determine their degree of punishment, not their salvation. God has perfect record keeping.

The term "another book," is the roll-book of the regenerated, those washed and sanctified through faith in His blood sacrifice for their sins. The first death consisted in the separation of the soul from the body temporarily until this judgment. The second death in the separation of both body and soul from God forever. The first death has a resurrection unto eternal life without sin; the second death is there is no recovery.

Ps. 9:5: “You have rebuked the nations, you have destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name forever and ever.”
Those who received Christ have their name written in his book of life (the Lamb's book) and it is retained in the Book of Life. Those who reject him, never have their name written in his book. Their name is also removed from the book of life, of which everyone’s name is written down that ever lived.

So there are several books, the book of records of their deeds, possibly the book of the law showing when they broke it. The book of life records their physical birth, and the Lamb's book of life which records their second birth (Spiritual). To be in the Lamb's book means one is in the new covenant and has been cleansed by the blood of the lamb. If one is born twice they will not be judged for punishment by the 2nd death, but have passed from death unto life. If you're born twice you will die once, if you're born once you will die twice (physically and spiritually). The great white throne judgment is the 2nd resurrection which is strictly for unbelievers (which takes place at the end of the Millennium) since believers have all been glorified in the different stages by the first resurrection.

Heb. 12:23: "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect." The Greek word is apographo which means to write (a copy or list), i.e. enrol: (Strong's Numbers and Concordance.) Thayer's Greek Lexicon says it means to enter in a register or records specially, to enter the names of men, their property, and income in public records to enroll. If you are born again you then become a pilgrim on earth heading for your permanent home in heaven

Is your name registered in heaven in the Lamb's book of life. There is only one way for this to occur. You must recognize Christ's sacrifice for you, admit you have sinned and need his forgiveness. Ask him to cleanse you by his blood he shed for your sins on the cross. Then your name will be on the register forever.

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct5.htm
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
wildbully have you thought about Brother Dales Question?
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
wildbully have you thought about Brother Dales Question?

Have you read what anyone eles besides your self has posted?

Or is it just your ignorance that per-motes dissension?
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hello again Carol,

You said:

We forgive because the Holy Spirit of Christ lives within us. We obey the law of Christ because His Spirit lives within us. We will never fall into judgment or fall from grace when we are led by the Spirit.

My question for you: Do you believe that one chooses(by the exercise of their God given will) to forgive? or do you believe that it is an impulsive act to one who is born-again?

My past personal experience has been that the Holy Spirit would convict me of being unforgiving...........and then leave me with a choice to make.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
oneinChrist,

Our choice was made when we gave our lives to Christ.

But Jesus told him, "Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62)

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." (Gal. 2:20)

Did you read the post about Stephen?
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Good Morning Carol,
So, what you are saying then......please correct me if I am wrong......

...that "forgiveness" is a natural impulse to one who is born-again???

So we(who have the spirit)no longer have to make the daily choice of yielding ourslelves over to the fruit of the spirit?and that the flesh no longer wars against the spirit???

Please explain. This is where I am confused about your line of thinking.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
I guess it depends on how a person views love. For some people, love is all about rules and responsibilities, a sort of military do-or-die perspective. Other people have a very romantic view of love, and for them it's all about desire and being pampered and adored. While still others have a more balanced, share and share alike, give-and-take perspective of love.

When we give our lives to Christ as our Lord and Savior, our view of love is going to influence our view of that commitment to Him.

Christ gave everything for us, so a balanced commitment would mean giving our everything for Him. He doesn't force us, and I don't mean to imply that. The Holy Spirit doesn't possess us and take over like a demonic spirit. He loves us and wants what is best for us. We need to know that, trust Him completely, and submit ourselves to Him totally. Be in-love with Christ.

Some things, like forgiveness or loving our enemies, may not feel natural at first. But as we submit to Him and His Word, all that He leads us to do will start feeling natural to us, because we are, after all, made in the image of God. We become more and more Christ-like.

Sanctification is progressive, and the more we submit to Him and His Word, the more we will progress. And the more natural it will be.

But because He loves us, He will NEVER let us choose to go to hell.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Good evening Carol,
Thank you for your response. You have answered my question and then some. I feel like I know you more personally through that post and it is a good feeling.

I have an in-law on my wife's side who left his wife for a lot younger woman. He had other issues besides his adultery........like drinking and pornography addiction. It is my understanding that he was at one time converted to Jesus.....living the faith(according to his wife). I dont think that he ever came to a time where he would of said to himself that he wanted to leave God and go to Hell. I dont think it happens that way. Just like our sanctification is a progressive learning/growing process, I think that falling out of love with the Lord is a gradual process where ones heart is more and more hardened to the things of God. Dont get me wrong.....I do believe that God has convicted him of his sin(chastised), but I think that God then waits for him to turn back on his own accord. Do you think that it is reality that everyone eventually turns back to God to restore their relationship with Him?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Do you think that it is reality that everyone eventually turns back to God to restore their relationship with Him?
My faith is not based on what people do. My faith is in the work and person of the Savior. When He chooses to save someone, that person will be saved, and I don't for a minute believe that our Lord only takes on the easy cases.

He disciplines those He loves. That doesn't mean that He tries and fails. He knows everything there is to know about a person He saves, and He never fails to accomplish His purpose. He doesn't possess us and force us, but He disciplines us.

I said before, "When we give our lives to Christ as our Lord and Savior, our view of love is going to influence our view of that commitment to Him." Let me add here that our view of love does not influence His view of commitment to us, and His love will eventually change whatever view of love we started out with.

I don't know your in-law, but I know that there are many people who profess Christ and maybe go to church, but they have not been born again. A regenerated person is changed, he becomes spiritually alive.

In redemption, the sinner is called by God and regenerated, justified, and adopted into the family of God and, thereafter, is called to live according to the righteousness of God. The doctrine of sanctification concerns the regenerated sinner's conformity to holiness.

I'm going to quote this from the Westminster Larger Catechism, although I'm not a Calvinist, because it is a good statement of what I believe:

Sanctification is a work of God's grace, whereby they whom God has, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, renewed in their whole man after the image of God; having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts, and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened, as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life.


But if all else fails,

1 Corinthians 5:5
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Carol,
You could be right......maybe he was never born-again. Maybe God held the Holy Spirit back from him because of his unremorseful/unregretful infidelity. This (I have been told) has been a pattern throughout his life. In fact the in-law that he was married to is just another woman that he committed adultery with when he was married to another woman. Now hes in the middle of doing the same thing again. I believe that unrepentance will hinder our receiving of forgiveness and the Holy Spirit.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Carol states:

quote:
My faith is not based on what people do. My faith is in the work and person of the Savior. When He chooses to save someone, that person will be saved, and I don't for a minute believe that our Lord only takes on the easy cases.

He disciplines those He loves. That doesn't mean that He tries and fails. He knows everything there is to know about a person He saves, and He never fails to accomplish His purpose. He doesn't possess us and force us, but He disciplines us.

I said before, "When we give our lives to Christ as our Lord and Savior, our view of love is going to influence our view of that commitment to Him." Let me add here that our view of love does not influence His view of commitment to us, and His love will eventually change whatever view of love we started out with.

I don't know your in-law, but I know that there are many people who profess Christ and maybe go to church, but they have not been born again. A regenerated person is changed, he becomes spiritually alive.

In redemption, the sinner is called by God and regenerated, justified, and adopted into the family of God and, thereafter, is called to live according to the righteousness of God. The doctrine of sanctification concerns the regenerated sinner's conformity to holiness.

I'm going to quote this from the Westminster Larger Catechism, although I'm not a Calvinist, because it is a good statement of what I believe:

Sanctification is a work of God's grace, whereby they whom God has, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, renewed in their whole man after the image of God; having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts, and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened, as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life.

Sanctification along with salvation is instantaneousand continual!

There is a distinction between.."being saved" and receiving the Spirit of YHWH; thruHIS SON Yahushua..

Listen:


If one receives the Spirit of YHWH, that person can say by faith "I'm Saved"; but if he does not endure unto the end..."Saved from what?"

That person received the "earnest" of salvation the Holy Spirit, by which that one is sealed..True.

But Yahushua, YHWH nor the Spirit of YHWh will EVER BREAK THIER PART OF THE "contract"....

So to me the question is not "whether that person was ever [saved], but did that person recieve the SPIRIT!

You can do despite to the Spirit of Grace and not only that you can "greive" the Holy Spirit!

So one "must" has to, ENDURE TO THE END!, the road is paved in the BLOOD OF YAHUSHUA!, it can be walked in the Spirit; but no where in scripture does it give place, to a "believer" or one that has recieved "forgiveness of sin" thru the blood of Chirst, that one can live in "sin" or the flesh and walk into heaven....

YHWH states: thru Yahushua "many" are "called" but few are chosen, now im not a "predestinationalist" but do fullyknow the "sovernty of YHWH; "Paul" being case in point!


Eternal Security, as i have said manytimes, i believe in...but must be explained...The scripture is clear; no man, woman, boy nor girl; devil, fallen angel, satan himself...that can PLUCk you [harpazo] you from YHWH's hand! Period:


BUT ONLY one can turn away; and thatnot without YHWH discipline, correction and drawing you back..for one can be backslidden and return ..

as the Prodigal son; in whom i am chief!


i full believe that "self" is truly part of the mark of the BEAST!

Rev says to him that overcomes.......will i give to eat from the tree of life...

Overcomes what...were already out of the world, overcomes what..

SELF! FOLKS

our rotten sin nature that is ever present with us a s Brother Paul said...

who shall deliver me from this "body of death!"

self..that fallen nature that we must thru the SPIRIT control, such a Yahushua [Jesus] did within himself..being man and God the WORD in the flesh..


YHWH cannot be tempted, but man can..so Yahushua was tempted in ALL points such as we were but WITHOUT SIN!!!!!!
Yahushua controlled his "man" nature; and walked the LAW, perfectly; therefore paying the price for our salvation; once and for all!

Dont come teaching this "sloppy" grace that some te4ach...this False Gospel of onlyPauls words are for the "church" today!


To teach "another Gospel" and or the sloppy grace that they are teaching today..cheapens the very BLOOD OF THE MESSIAH..

and i will die standing against that!!!!!!!!!


He [Yahushua] [Jesus] payedthat horrifice price, the death of the cross [tree] for us folks;

i want to serve Him with all that is within me...


Once some one has been born again...the work starts, putting our hand to the plow and looking back were not worthy...


works did not get us saved...that is "serving the law", "keeping" the law..because as James said:

breaking one point in the law; were guilty of all the law...and that penalty is DEATH:!


So we are saved by the 'work' [walk] of another; Yahushua the HaMasich!

who fulfilled the "law', CARRIED OUT THE LAW, WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH..PERFECTLY; SO NOW THERE IS A PERFECT SACRIFICE:


But as far as works...your decieved precious sister [not a nun]; there is works to be done; not to be saved but after saved...after recieving the Spirit!


The LAW is on my heart..to \"remember the Sabbath" is not only on my heart; its for ME, for MAN..its a good thing...


I do not want to displease YHWH in any way..

Like Carol [the sister thats not a nuhn.. [Smile] ]; said; its many more things than the law, its the true original purpose of the law..its the "LAW" of love..which is tougher that just eye for an eye!


[hug]
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
errory your such a fair weather legalistic worm...

You say "If one receives the Spirit of YHWH, that person can say by faith "I'm Saved"; but if he does not endure unto the end..."Saved from what?"

First off , again whats a yhwn? Motorcycle? Whats that all about?

I think you would say/do whatever the VC told you 2 when Jane Fonda gave them the note your buds tried to get back to the "WE THE PEOPLE".

Errory you talk a real good game but I know from experience, that your of the type that would give out names and logistic numbers to save your but then confessed it when you got home.

One wouldn't want to go to Hell.

Right errory

The Lord's gift to me is discerning spirits.

Plow on , plow on.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
bill states:

quote:
errory your such a fair weather legalistic worm...

You say "If one receives the Spirit of YHWH, that person can say by faith "I'm Saved"; but if he does not endure unto the end..."Saved from what?"

First off , again whats a yhwn? Motorcycle? Whats that all about?

I think you would say/do whatever the VC told you 2 when Jane Fonda gave them the note your buds tried to get back to the "WE THE PEOPLE".

Errory you talk a real good game but I know from experience, that your of the type that would give out names and logistic numbers to save your but then confessed it when you got home.

One wouldn't want to go to Hell.

Right errory

The Lord's gift to me is discerning spirits.

Plow on , plow on.


Bill you cannot even decearn the spirit you follow..
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
bill states:

quote:
errory your such a fair weather legalistic worm...

You say "If one receives the Spirit of YHWH, that person can say by faith "I'm Saved"; but if he does not endure unto the end..."Saved from what?"

First off , again whats a yhwn? Motorcycle? Whats that all about?

I think you would say/do whatever the VC told you 2 when Jane Fonda gave them the note your buds tried to get back to the "WE THE PEOPLE".

Errory you talk a real good game but I know from experience, that your of the type that would give out names and logistic numbers to save your but then confessed it when you got home.

One wouldn't want to go to Hell.

Right errory

The Lord's gift to me is discerning spirits.

Plow on , plow on.


Bill you cannot even decearn the spirit you follow..
Thats rather funny coming from you,lol.

Please stop I may wet myself.
 
Posted by barrykind (Member # 35) on :
 
Bill states:

quote:
Thats rather funny coming from you,lol.

Please stop I may wet myself.


Done!
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Fallen from Grace
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace

The above verse should be enough to motivate us all unto abiding in Christ and maintaining a living faith in Him. Because of all the controversy surrounding the unconditional eternal security doctrine, it is important that we rightly divide the word of truth and bring to light such biblical concepts. From scripture, we can clearly see that the possibility exists of falling from grace. This is a frightening concept, but we have a responsibility, not only to teach what we consider to be "uplifting" truths from the bible, but also those things that are sobering and cause us to remain fresh in our relationship with the Lord.

The above situation in Galatia was indeed grave. Without doing a whole commentary on the book of Galatians which is beyond the scope of this article, I'll give you a brief synopsis (and I encourage you to read this on your own as well). In a nutshell, there was a group (or possibly several groups) in Galatia that was insistent that those who had come to faith in Christ must also keep the law of Moses. No doubt there would have been some confusion for those who had come from a Hebraic perspective. This newfound freedom in Christ might have seemed dangerous to those who had held to the Mosaic law as a means of salvation. At a time when the nation was under tremendous pressure, and patriotism was at an all time high, it is equally obvious that they would want to identify with their Jewish culture and not seem as if they were jumping ship.

It appears that one of the primary points of contention was that of circumcision. Paul made it very clear to them however that circumcision was not the only tenet of the law that had to be obeyed. If one were to seek to be justified by the law (which is impossible anyway but I'm speaking hypothetically), they would not only have to be circumcised, but keep all 600 + laws.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

We know the scriptures declare that if "we offend in one point...we are guilty of all." The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ. It definitely served (and serves) it's purpose to show us our exceeding sinful condition and need for a Saviour.

Now that we have some of the historical background in focus, let's get back to the grave situation that Paul speaks of. I'll cite the verse again.

Galatians Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace

In order to show the gravity of the situation, I think it's important to define the term "fallen from grace." The usage of this greek word "katargeo" was used to define the termination of a relationship with someone. This is the same word used in Romans chapter 7 where Paul describes the ending of a marriage covenant relationship. I'll give you the reference for your personal study and highlight the word "katargeo" translated "loosed" in Romans 7.

Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

The ironic thing is that in Romans, Paul was using a metaphor showing how we (as the body of Christ) were now dead to the law that we should be married to Christ. The situaton in Galatia was exactly the opposite....they were putting to death their relationship with Christ so that they might join (or marry) the law once more. In no uncertain terms, Paul (by the Holy Spirit) is saying that if these Galatian believers leave Christ and attempt to come under the law, the grace of Christ will be of no effect to them whatsoever-regardless of past profession or possesion. Remember in II Corinthians, we are warned not to receive the grace of God in vain. (thus showing it is possible to start well, but not finish the race at all.)

II Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Earlier in the letter, Paul had alluded to the possiblity that they may be in need of a new beginning. It is impossible to forget the imagery of Jesus word's in John chapter 3.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Now contrast that with the language Paul used in Galatians.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

Many are tempted to say this group in Galatians had never truly been saved, but were false converts. I think that this verse shows indeed that they had received the Spirit of God. In Romans it declares that "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.."

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

This is proof-positive-that not only had they received the Spirit of God, but they had indeed begun new life in the Spirit!

The book of Galatians clearly refutes the false teaching of unconditional eternal security. The temptation is to think this only applies to the churches of Galatia. While it's true that most (though not all) of Christianity doesn't struggle with trying to keep the Mosaic law, the issue of falling from grace is still at the forefront. Whenever we cease to abide in Christ, we are in danger of falling from grace. Modern theologians preach a grace that takes the place of holy living. This is not the grace of the bible. In Titus we are told that the grace of God teaches us that denying ungodly and worldy lusts, we should live soberly, and righteously in thie present world. Jude warns against those who "turn the grace of God into lasciviousness." It is my sincere desire and prayer that everyone who reads this article will indeed continue to "grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (II Peter 3:18)

God bless you as you study His Word!
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
"From scripture, we can clearly see that the possibility exists of falling from grace."

By substituting it with the LAW!

"The book of Galatians clearly refutes the false teaching of unconditional eternal security."

false WITNESS-ER it does no such thing
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
barrykind

quote:
Rev says to him that overcomes.......will i give to eat from the tree of life...
Revelation 2:7
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

The book of Revelation concerns the Tribulation.

First, I believe the Church will be Raptured before the Tribulation. Believers today already have eternal life. (John 10:27,28)

Secondly, during the Tribulation the people who come to faith, the Tribulation saints, will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit will be in the world as in Old Testament times, but not indwelling believers. Believers are going to have a very difficult time during those 7 years. They will have a lot to overcome.

Still, all scripture is profitable. We are constantly tempted and vexed by demons and shot with Satan's fiery darts. We need to wear the armor of God to overcome such things.

becauseHElives,

quote:
The book of Galatians clearly refutes the false teaching of unconditional eternal security
It clearly refutes the false teaching of legalism.

There is no such thing as unconditional eternal security. The conditions required are to repent and put our faith in Christ, receiving Him as our Lord and Savior.

He is omniscient - He is not going to "cast pearls before swine" by giving the precious gift of Life to pretenders. But will He save the weak and foolish? Not everyone is blessed with the intelligence, knowledge, and fortitude that you possess. Yes, I think He will save His silly children who love Him.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
not teaching of legalism....

never have....

I am teaching walking in the Spirit....

I am teaching responsibility of actions committed after coming to the knowledge of Yahshua....confession of sin as clearly stated in 1st John....6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Carol and WilbB are teaching easy believism....Grace with no moral responsibility....you both teach partial Truth...

I don't use abusive language like WildB.....I also refrain from foolish jesting , again something the scripture teach....Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.Ephesians 5:4
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Carol and WilbB are teaching easy believism....Grace with no moral responsibility....you both teach partial Truth...

You obviously don't read what we post. No one here teaches easy believism. Both legalism and license to sin are wrong.

Jesus explained that His sheep are secure in His hand and in the Father's hand. "They shall never perish" is His promise (John 3:16; 6:39; 17:12; 18:9). The false shepherds bring destruction (John 10:10, same Greek word); but the Good Shepherd sees to it that His sheep shall never perish.

The security of God's sheep is assured here in several ways. First, by definition—we have "eternal life," and that cannot be conditional and still be eternal. Second, this life is a gift, not something that we earn or merit If we were not saved by our own good works, but by His grace, then we cannot be lost by our "bad works" (Rom. 11:6). But most important, Jesus gave us His promise that His sheep do not perish, and that His promise cannot be broken.

It is important to keep in mind that Jesus was talking about sheep—true believers—and not counterfeits. The dog and the pig will go back into sin (2 Peter 2:20-22); but the sheep, being a clean animal, will follow the Shepherd into the green pastures. The false professor will talk about his faith and even his works, but he will never make it into heaven (Matt. 7:13-29). Most of us know people who professed to be saved and then went back into sin, but their doing so only proved that they never really trusted Christ to begin with. Jesus did not promise security to anyone but His true sheep.

Wiersbe

This discussion brought up an interesting question. When someone is born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, does he still have free will? Can he still choose to turn away and live in sin?
 
Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
Yes, a true believer is eternally secure because he or she has been saved by Gods grace without any human merit. But the believer is still a sinner who sins daily in thought, word and deed. This is something that Paul struggled with in Romans 7, but he was assured of victory in Christ. There are examples in the scriptures of believers falling into sin, but they were always graciously restored to fellowship by the work of the Holy Spirit.

Every true believer is aware that all their thoughts and actions are tainted by sin and that the key to forgiveness is repentance and total trust and dependence in Christ, as He grants them the grace to do so.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Yes, a true believer is eternally secure because he or she has been saved by Gods grace without any human merit. But the believer is still a sinner who sins daily in thought, word and deed. This is something that Paul struggled with in Romans 7, but he was assured of victory in Christ. There are examples in the scriptures of believers falling into sin, but they were always graciously restored to fellowship by the work of the Holy Spirit.

Every true believer is aware that all their thoughts and actions are tainted by sin and that the key to forgiveness is repentance and total trust and dependence in Christ, as He grants them the grace to do so.

Born again Christians are Spiritual beings still living in flesh-en bodies.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Romans 7:14-25 (NASB)

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
The OSAS crowd most of the time only looks at the top of the 'lease agreement' to salvation, and screams "Jesus made my payment, I have the right to live here no matter what!" Or in other words "I accepted Christ, and I'm saved no matter what!". Never....I mean NEVER do they read the terms and conditions of their 'tenancy'. I will even say, in my experience, most of them don't know the fine print even exists. For if they did, they would not believe in the heresy.
Good grief! Our salvation is not a lease agreement. It is a gift paid for by our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. There is no fine print. If you really think you can do a better job of salvation than He has, all I can say is that lease agreement you have did not come from Him.

What Christ accomplished for the world is miraculous beyond comprehension. Something that only our benevolent and very, very wonderful God could do. We don't obey Him to earn our salvation or keep it; we obey Him in response to our salvation. The miracle He worked in us has made us new creations in Christ. I wish all of you could embrace the full measure of His grace and rejoice in Him rather than living as fearful slaves to self-righteousness.
 




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