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Author Topic: Salvation Is Offered By God To All Men
Carol Swenson
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Bloodbought

There are a number of verses in Scripture that seem to support the Doctrine of Election. And there are a number of verses in Scripture that seem to support the Arminian view. If we quote verses out of context, then we can proof-text whichever view we want.

quote:
Seems like their names were never recorded, at least not in the Lamb’s book of life, otherwise He would have known them at some point in their life.

He is omniscient. We cannot say that He is unaware of sinners, only that He rejects them.

quote:
You said, “As unbelievers die, their names are removed from the book;” But Rev 13:8 says there are those who dwell on the earth whose names are not written in the book of life.

Rev 13:4 (NLT)
They worshiped the dragon for giving the beast such power, and they also worshiped the beast. “Who is as great as the beast?” they exclaimed. “Who is able to fight against him?”

Rev 13:8 (NLT)
And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast . They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made— the Book that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered.

My understanding is that those who take the mark of the beast and worship him cannot repent - their fate is sealed. They are "dead". They do not belong to the Kingdom of God, (we are citizens of Heaven), but they belong to this world ruled by Satan. In this Age of Grace a person is given up to the moment of his death to repent, but during the Tribulation those who take the mark of the beast cannot. Rev 13:8 is about the Lamb's Book of Life, and these people have chosen to worship Satan, not Christ.

quote:
Why would He prepare a place for them from the foundation of the world if there was the possibility that their name could be blotted out of the book of life?

Exod. 32:33: "And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." If one dies without forgiveness of their sins their name vanishes out of the record book of life. In eternity, the past, present, and future are not the same as they are to us. Your verse says the Kingdom was prepared from the foundation of the world. In John 14:2, He says He is going to go prepare a place, and this sounds as if it were not already done.

quote:
The reason why it’s the book of life of the Lamb is because it contains only the names of sheep. Goats do not get entered into the Lamb’s book; they are recorded in other books.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God. The Book of Life of the Lamb are those who have given their lives to Him as their Lord and their Savior.

The sheep and goats judgment takes place at the end of the Tribulation. The goats are those who served the Antichrist and bear his mark, but were not part of the army that was destroyed by Christ.

quote:
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened : and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
These are the wicked dead whose names were blotted out of the Book of Life. The other books, ("and the books were opened"), are a record of their works, the law, and more. When we give our lives to Christ and we are forgiven, the record of our sins is gone. But these people died in their sins, and they are judged by them.

God does not need to use books the way that humans do, but I have no doubt that He is fully aware of everything a person thinks, feels, and does during a lifetime. I don't know if the Book of Life really becomes the Lamb's Book of Life, or if they're different. There are prophecies about Israel that make me think the Books are not the same. I don't know.

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oneinchrist
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Hi Carol,
The fact that "Salvation is offered by God to all men"(the title of your post) is one of the great proofs that "God is no respecter of persons".

For God does not favor-and has never favored-one person or group of people over others.

Neither does Gods impartiality keep Him from "choosing people and nations to accomplish His specific purposes.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
God’s “Book of Life” contains the names of all the living, the wicked as well as the righteous (Ps. 69:28). Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 suggest that the names of the saved are written in the book from the foundation of the world—that is, before they had done anything good or bad.

Jesus told His disciples to rejoice because their names were “written in heaven” (Luke 10:20). The Greek verb is in the perfect tense, which means it can be translated (as Kenneth Wuest does in his Expanded Translation), “your names have been written in heaven and are on permanent record up there.”

As unbelievers die, their names are removed from the book; thus, at the final judgment, the book contains only the names of believers (Rev. 20:12-15). It then becomes “the Lamb’s Book of Life” (Rev. 21:27), because only those who have given their lives to Him and are saved by the Lord Jesus Christ have their names in it. All the others have been blotted out. (Psalm 69:28, Revelation 3:5)

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Seems like their names were never recorded, at least not in the Lamb’s book of life, otherwise He would have known them at some point in their life.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You said, “As unbelievers die, their names are removed from the book;” But Rev 13:8 says there are those who dwell on the earth whose names are not written in the book of life.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Why would He prepare a place for them from the foundation of the world if there was the possibility that their name could be blotted out of the book of life?

The reason why it’s the book of life of the Lamb is because it contains only the names of sheep. Goats do not get entered into the Lamb’s book; they are recorded in other books.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened : and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

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Eden
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hi, bloodbought, thanks for participating. You wrote to Eden
quote:
Hi Eden,

You seem to imply that when Jesus said “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me John 12:32.” That He didn’t mean “all universally,” because all who are drawn come to Him and He raises them up at the last day. Is that your position?

John 6:44
No man can come to me except the Father who has sent Me DRAW him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW all men unto Me.

So you said to Eden
quote:
You seem to imply that when Jesus said “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me (John 12:32),” that He didn’t mean “all universally,” because all who are drawn come to Him and He raises them up at the last day. Is that your position?
You pose a good question, but how can Jesus on the one hand, and prior in time say that "only those drawn by the Father can come to Him", and then later when it's nearly time for Jesus to go to the cross, Jesus says, "If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me (John 12:32)", it would seems that that would HAVE TO BE MODIFIED by His earlier statement in John 6:44:
No man can come to me except the Father who has sent me DRAW him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In other words, I would have to interpret that as Jesus saying, "I will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME WHOM THE FATHER HAS DRAWN TO ME".

love, Eden

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oneinchrist
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Hi Bloodbought,

I have just a couple questions for you.........

1. How is it that you think that the Father draws? Could you please give some examples (whether from the bible or from personal experience).......and......

2. Does the bible have anything specific to say about the people who Jesus claims are given to Him by the Father?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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Bloodbought

quote:
So now we have moved from the position of “all men” to “all nations” which is something totally different and makes sense.

Did Christ die to draw all men to Himself? No, He died to draw some men from all nations and those who He draws He will raise up at the last day.

That isn't what I meant. The offer is made to all people, but only some respond to it.

quote:
Not everyone will be saved because the scripture is clear that many will be cast into the lake of fire who’s names are not written in the book of life, but those who are saved were in the book of life from before the foundation of the world. Where does that leave the free choice of "ALL" the rest?

God’s “Book of Life” contains the names of all the living, the wicked as well as the righteous (Ps. 69:28). Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 suggest that the names of the saved are written in the book from the foundation of the world—that is, before they had done anything good or bad.

Jesus told His disciples to rejoice because their names were “written in heaven” (Luke 10:20). The Greek verb is in the perfect tense, which means it can be translated (as Kenneth Wuest does in his Expanded Translation), “your names have been written in heaven and are on permanent record up there.”

As unbelievers die, their names are removed from the book; thus, at the final judgment, the book contains only the names of believers (Rev. 20:12-15). It then becomes “the Lamb’s Book of Life” (Rev. 21:27), because only those who have given their lives to Him and are saved by the Lord Jesus Christ have their names in it. All the others have been blotted out. (Psalm 69:28, Revelation 3:5)

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Brother Paul
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the Lord Bless

Bloodbought you said "Jesus said that all that the Father “draws” He will raise them up at the last day. It makes no difference what term you use because the (him) who He is drawing or attracting or wooing, is the same (him) who He will raise at the last day."

This impies that all He draws WILL BE raised up as in redeemed...

Only the word does not actually say this. John 6:44 says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

The focus is the "all who come to me" this could easily (grammatically) be referring to a group within all those drawn but does not necessitate that this refers to all He draws....

Likewise the Lord now drawing all (offering Christ is a drawing because the Lord has given the measure of faith to all men - Romans 12:3) or even that He would prefer all men to be saved does not necessitate that all will be saved...even if it is God's will that all should be saved if we are free will creatures all may not be saved because we cooperate with His Spirit while other reject and rebel...

Please correct me if I misunderstood or misrepresented you...

Brother Paul

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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
I'm sorry, but Universalism simply is not true. It teaches that everyone who has ever lived will be saved no matter what. The truth is that a person must repent and put his faith in Christ to be born again. Without rebirth there is no salvation. If there are exceptions, they were mentioned in the topic about what happens to people who have never heard about Jesus.

The phrase “all men” does not suggest universal salvation. It means “all people without distinction,” that is, Jews and Gentiles. He does not force them; He draws them (see John 6:44-45). He was “lifted up” that men might find the way (John 12:32), know the truth (John 8:28), and receive the life (John 3:14). The cross reminds us that God loves a whole world and that the task of the church is to take the Gospel to the whole world.

So now we have moved from the position of “all men” to “all nations” which is something totally different and makes sense.

Did Christ die to draw all men to Himself? No, He died to draw some men from all nations and those who He draws He will raise up at the last day.

No one can come to Christ unless it is given to them of the Father.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

God is in control and can bring man’s will into line with His will by drawing them by His word and by His spirit.

Not everyone will be saved because the scripture is clear that many will be cast into the lake of fire who’s names are not written in the book of life, but those who are saved were in the book of life from before the foundation of the world. Where does that leave the free choice of "ALL" the rest?

God bless as we continue to grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. 2 Pet 3:18.

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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:


John 6:37 All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which He {the Father) has given me {Jesus} I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

To me the above verses say that "only the believers that the Father gives Jesus" will be saved, but "not all mankind". What of those two options do you currently believe, bloodbought?

Hi Eden,

You seem to imply that when Jesus said “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me John 12:32.” That He didn’t mean “all universally,” because all who are drawn come to Him and He raises them up at the last day. Is that your position?

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Carol Swenson
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I'm sorry, but Universalism simply is not true. It teaches that everyone who has ever lived will be saved no matter what. The truth is that a person must repent and put his faith in Christ to be born again. Without rebirth there is no salvation. If there are exceptions, they were mentioned in the topic about what happens to people who have never heard about Jesus.

The phrase “all men” does not suggest universal salvation. It means “all people without distinction,” that is, Jews and Gentiles. He does not force them; He draws them (see John 6:44-45). He was “lifted up” that men might find the way (John 12:32), know the truth (John 8:28), and receive the life (John 3:14). The cross reminds us that God loves a whole world and that the task of the church is to take the Gospel to the whole world.

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Bloodbought
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Hi Carol,

“C. Jesus Died to Offer Salvation to All Men.”
Is that all men universally?

If so what is the difference between Jesus drawing all men unto Him and the Father drawing those who come to Him that He will raise up at the last day?

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Carol Swenson
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Bloodbought

I. Salvation Is Offered By God To All Men

A. God Desires All Men to Be Saved.

B. God's Grace Is Extended to All Men.

C. Jesus Died to Offer Salvation to All Men.

D. God's Offer of Salvation Is Preached in the Gospel to All Men.

II. God Has Decreed Conditions of Salvation which All Men Can Meet.

A. Men Must Believe in Christ .

B. Men Must Repent ."


UNIVERSALISM IS FALSE. DIVINE ELECTION IS FALSE.

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becauseHElives
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"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2:9)

IS THE MESSAGE OF SALVATION MEANT FOR ALL MEN?

Exposing A Lie Of The Self-Righteous Elitists!


Within Christianity, there seems to be a certain body of
believers who have the erroneous idea that God's invitation
to Salvation is not liberally extended to all men
everywhere. Given the many Scriptures which show the exact
opposite, I am quite surprised to see that such a belief
even exists within the Christian body. The only conclusions
I can arrive at is that either those who hold this view are
not aware of certain passages in the Bible, or else they
have put on spiritual blinders and are knowingly rejecting
these verses because they happen to go against their pet
doctrine of exclusiveness. One of the very first verses
which comes to my mind is one which many folks are already
familiar with:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten
Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but
have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

Notice that God has chosen to manifest His Love to the
world, meaning everyone, and not just to some select body of
human beings. It is right after this that we see human free
will coming into play when John says 'that whosoever
believeth'. That is very clearly an invitation to everyone
everywhere. Anyone who chooses to believe in the Sacrifice
of Jesus Christ can receive Eternal Life, and NOT just some
specialized group of people. This leads right into another
verse which also shows the free will nature of the Salvation
Plan:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to
become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his
name:" (John 1:12)

Again we see that the invitation is open to anyone who will
receive the Lord as their Saviour. 'But as many as received
Him' John informs us. Only five verses before, John also
tells us:

"The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light,
that all men through him might believe." (John 1:7)

It is God's desire that all men everywhere repent of their
sins and accept the Sacrifice of His Son. Consider what
Peter tells us in his second epistle:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some
men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should
come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Notice again that it says 'that all should come to
repentance'. This does not mean that this is what is going
to happen, but it is the ideal condition that God seeks
after. However, as I have said before, during this current
period of Grace, He will not force Himself upon any man. If
we accept Him and His Son, it must be by our own free will
and loving choice. It must also be because we truly realize
and accept our sinful condition, and our need for a Saviour.
God's love and longsuffering towards all men is also
expressed in the following Scriptures:

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and
forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness
of God leadeth thee to repentance?" (Romans 2:4)

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we
were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again
unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from
the dead," (1 Peter 1:3)

Based on the scriptural evidence I have presented thus far,
how can anyone possibly doubt God's Love towards us, and His
desire to share His Heavenly Kingdom with us? While Jesus
was on Earth, He made it quite clear that His Sacrifice was
for the Redemption of all men, IF they would only believe:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all
men unto me." (John 12:32)

When the Apostle Paul stood on Mars Hill in Athens and
preached to the Greeks, he likwise told them that God was
calling all men everywhere to repent:

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now
commandeth all men every where to repent:" (Acts 17:30)

As the Apostle Peter found out in the Book of Acts, God is
not a respecter of persons. He doesn't go around saying 'You
can be saved, but you can't'. This would be ridiculous and
totally unfair:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I
perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" (Acts 10:34)

In his epistle to the Romans, Paul also spent a great deal
of time explaining that, inasmuch as the Sacrifice of Jesus
Christ is concerned, and the Salvation which that same
Sacrifice offers, the Lord makes absolutely no difference
between any man. All are sinners in need of Salvation:

"For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:11)

This same thought is supported in some of the other epistles
as well, as is demonstrated by the following verses:

"And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing
threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven;
neither is there respect of persons with him."
(Ephesians 6:9)

"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are
convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2:9)

"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of
persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time
of your sojourning here in fear:" (1 Peter 1:17)

When Paul was testifying before the crowd on the steps of
the castle after his arrest in Jerusalem, he told them of
his miraculous conversion on the road to Damascus. While
explaining how Ananias had come by the Lord's command to
heal his eyes, Paul quotes Ananias as saying:

"For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou
hast seen and heard." (Acts 22:15)

This is exactly what Paul did. After the hard-hearted Jews
had rejected the message of Salvation, Paul took it to the
Gentile nations, and did one fine job of it! He is one
fellow I look forward to meeting in person someday! Isn't
this also exactly what Jesus told the Original Twelve to
do?:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach
the gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15)

Notice, He didn't say to just take it to the Jews, or to
this group of people, or to that particular race. He said to
go into ALL the world! This very same idea is also reflected
in the first chapter of the Book of Acts where we find:

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is
come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in
Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the
uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)

In his letter to the Romans, Paul was explaining how sin had
entered into the world by one man, that man of course being
Adam. But then Paul goes on to tell them that just as
condemnation entered into the world by the actions of one
man, so too, God's free gift of Eternal Life is made available
to all men by the Blood of Jesus Christ:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all
men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the
free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
(Romans 5:18)

Later on in his first epistle to Timothy, Paul also made
mention that it is God's desire that all men come to the
knowledge of The Truth that they might be saved through
belief in that Truth:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our
Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto
the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

Later on in the very same letter to Timothy, Paul added:

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because
we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

Notice Paul's inference to free will in the above verse.
While Jesus is indeed the Saviour of all men everywhere, it
is only those who accept Him as such to whom Eternal Life is
given. Jesus taught this same principle in His parable of the
wedding feast. While the offer of Salvation is indeed
offered to all men, the only way we can obtain it is by
being clothed in a garment of righteousness; and that
righteousness is the Blood of Jesus Christ:

"Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but
they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into
the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the
marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and
gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and
good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when
the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which
had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend,
how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And
he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind
him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into
outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of
teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen."
(Matthew 22:8-14)

Notice how the parable ends. Does this mean that God has
only purposely chosen some while rejecting others? Of course
not! This would totally negate personal choice in the
matter. The reason the man in the above parable was not
chosen is because he tried to sneak into the wedding feast
without accepting Christ. It is just like people who try to
sneak over or under a fence at a sporting event without
buying a ticket; or who try to sneak into a movie theater
without paying the admission price. In this case, Jesus has
already paid the price with His Blood; so all we have to do
is accept His Sacrifice. In this parable, this man was
kicked out because he wanted to enjoy the benefits of the
Kingdom of Heaven without honouring or accepting the Captain
of his Salvation who made it possible for us:

"For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are
all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the
captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings."
(Hebrews 2:10)

This is the true meaning of being chosen by God. God chooses
us because we have already chosen Him through our belief in
the Sacrifice of His Son:

"He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth
me receiveth him that sent me." (Matthew 10:40)

This works in reverse as well, as in the case of the
unbelieving Jews and Muslims. You can't say that you believe
in God while at the same time denying the Sacrifice of His
Son Whom He sent. This is why Jesus told us that there be
few who find the path to life:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate,
and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and
many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is
the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto
life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)

Most people want to make their own conditions for Salvation
instead of accepting God's conditions, which are really
quite simple: Just believe in Jesus! Considering the
preponderance of Scriptural evidence I have provided in this
article, it should now be clear that Christianity is NOT
some kind of a closed religion meant only for white people
or Westerners. Likewise, it is not the false religion you
find in certain churches and religious organizations which
falsely teach that you must belong to their organization, or
you must attend their church in order to truly be saved.
This is precisely what the Roman Catholic church teaches for
example. They say that the 'holy mother church' is the only
one who can forgive sins and grant salvation to the
faithful. What an abominable lie of Satan! This is the very
thing these Scriptures speak against, a private club of
elite religionists! This kind of talk is absolutely
ludicrous! It is usurping the Power and Authority which
belongs to Jesus Christ alone! He is the Author and Finisher
of our faith, and no one else:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,
despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of
the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:2)

Eternal Life is the free gift of God offered to ALL men the
world over IF they will only believe. If a person does not
belong to this Club, it is because they have chosen not to
by their own free will, because this Club is universal in
scope. In the end, those who don't make it in will have no
one to blame but themselves and their own rebellious pride.
The Lord extends His offer of Salvation to you. Will you
accept it? I pray this article has been an inspiration and a blessing to many.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Bloodbought
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Hi all,

Here are the headings of the opening post.

quote:
"I. Salvation Is Offered By God To All Men

A. God Desires All Men to Be Saved.

B. God's Grace Is Extended to All Men.

C. Jesus Died to Offer Salvation to All Men.

D. God's Offer of Salvation Is Preached in the Gospel to All Men.

II. God Has Decreed Conditions of Salvation which All Men Can Meet.

A. Men Must Believe in Christ.

B. Men Must Repent."

In the above, does (all) mean all or does all only mean (some)?

I assume that all means all.

Now let us go back to these verses.

Jesus said,
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him : and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word “draw” here in John 6:44 is the same Greek word as the word “draw” in John 12:32.

Now Jesus says
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Daniel said,
“The word "draw" does not mean the same thing as "redeem"......as in "will redeem all men unto Me"
"Drawing" is very similar in meaning to "attracting or wooing" in this particular context.”

Jesus said that all that the Father “draws” He will raise them up at the last day. It makes no difference what term you use because the (him) who He is drawing or attracting or wooing, is the same (him) who He will raise at the last day.

Carol said, “Universalism is a heresy.” But how can that be when Jesus said that He would draw ALL, ALL men unto Him?

Is He going to save America and not Ireland, or is He only going to save Israel?

What does the word “ALL” mean to you, when Jesus said He will draw ALL and ALL that the Father draws He will raise up at the last day?

And does ALL MEN in the opening post mean all Universally?

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Jesus said,
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The scripture makes it absolutely clear that all will be saved and not one will be lost.

Universalism is a heresy.

Divine Election is false because people can choose whether or not to believe in Christ.

Universalism is false because people must choose whether or not to believe in Christ.

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Eden
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The Title of this Topic is "Salvation Is Offered By God To All Men", and one subtitle in Carol Swenson's article said
quote:
A. God Desires All Men To Be Saved
Let’s look at this word “will” (or rather, “will have”) in 1 Timothy 2:4, below,

1 Timothy 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Let's look at this "will have" in the Strong’s Concordance:

1Timothy 2:4 Who 3739 will have 2309 all 3956 men 444 to be saved 4982 , and 2532 to come 2064 unto 1519 the knowledge 1922 of the truth 225.

Meaning of will have 2309 from Strong’s:

will have 2309, thelo, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:--desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).

So let me repeat 1 Timothy 2:4:

4 Who will have 2309 thelo have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

So this “will” is NOT the kind of “will” where God WILLS IT INTO EXISTENCE; 2309 thelo is “desire, would delight in, be disposed to, would rather have”. So God would “love it if all men saved themselves”, but God knows that is not going to happen because God also said,

Matthew 7:13
Enter in at the strait (tight) gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait (tight) is the gate and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there be that find it.

God would “love to thelo 2309 have it”, but God knows it won’t happen and that instead few will find the way that leads to life.

love, Eden

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Eden
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Hi, bloodbought, you wrote
quote:
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Doesn’t all mean all and won’t all be raised at the last day? (bold added by Eden)

If I may ask, bloodbought, speed things up for me without me having to search through your earlier post, are you saying here that the Father intends to "save all mankind", or are you only saying tha the Father intends to "only save those whom He has given to Jesus", namely the believers? Because the verses from John 7 said,

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which He {the Father) has given me {Jesus} I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

To me the above verses say that "only the believers that the Father gives Jesus" will be saved, but "not all mankind". What of those two options do you currently believe, bloodbought?

love, Eden

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oneinchrist
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Hi Bloodbought,
In your first post you seemed that you were trying to prove that all men are saved by one single verse. Let me get this right..........are you still trying to prove that all men are saved, but with 2 verses now instead of just 1..........or are you trying to prove something else all together now?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Bloodbought,
Because of the fact that Jesus will draw all men unto Him, does not mean that all men will come.

The word "draw" does not mean the same thing as "redeem"......as in "will redeem all men unto Me"
"Drawing" is very similar in meaning to "attracting or wooing" in this particular context.

The consistencies of this truth are evident on the whole of scripture.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Good point Daniel,

Jesus said,
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word “draw” here in John 6:44 is the same Greek word as the word “draw” in John 12:32.

Now He says that all that the Father “draws” He will raise them up at the last day.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Doesn’t all mean all and won’t all be raised at the last day?

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oneinchrist
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Hi Bloodbought,
Because of the fact that Jesus will draw all men unto Him, does not mean that all men will come.

The word "draw" does not mean the same thing as "redeem"......as in "will redeem all men unto Me"
"Drawing" is very similar in meaning to "attracting or wooing" in this particular context.

The consistencies of this truth are evident on the whole of scripture.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Bloodbought
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Jesus said,
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The scripture makes it absolutely clear that all will be saved and not one will be lost.

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oneinchrist
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Hi Carol,
I completely agree with your post. What the bible teaches as conditions (the if's) , Calvanist proponents refer to as evidences of salvation. To someone on the sidelines, the differences may not be all that evident, but after having spent much time in the midst of the heat of battle (between the opposing views) we notice that there surely are significant differences that can have implications in several ways.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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True!
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becauseHElives
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Carol [thumbsup2]

about repentance for the believer... after the new birth repentance is continual heart condition....

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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I. Salvation Is Offered By God To All Men

Calvinism says that the decision whether or not a particular individual will be saved is entirely up to God, and man cannot influence that decision. If we can prove that God offers salvation to all men, then it must follow from Calvinism that all people will be saved! But that conclusion is clearly false. Hence, the Calvinistic concept of unconditional election must be false.

A. God Desires All Men to Be Saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [Note: This is the same "all men" for whom we should pray - v1.]

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

If God sincerely wants all people to be saved and wants none to perish, and if the decision is entirely up to Him (man has no choice), then all people will be saved and none will be lost! The logical conclusion of unconditional election must be universalism!

Yet we know only a few will be saved and most lost (Matt. 7:13,14) [22:14]. Hence, either God does not sincerely want everyone saved, or else man does have a choice!

B. God's Grace Is Extended to All Men.

Because God wants all to be saved, He has shown all men mercy and favor by offering them salvation.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Note that what God's grace brings to all is "salvation."

C. Jesus Died to Offer Salvation to All Men.

1 Timothy 2:6 - Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all (the same "all" that God wants to be saved - v4).

Hebrews 2:9 - By the grace of God Jesus tasted death for everyone. This "everyone" refers to those who are subject to the fear of death (v15), which is every human.

John 3:16 - God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Note that the ones Jesus died to save are all those in the world whom God loves. Yet He loves even His enemies (Matt. 5:43-38).

Romans 5:18,19 - Justification came unto "all men" by Jesus' righteous act (His death). This was the same "all men" on whom condemnation came as a result of Adam's sin. So, however many people are condemned by sin, that is how many can receive the benefit of Jesus' death.

The intent of Jesus' death was to offer salvation to all men. If these passages are true, then either all men will be saved (which cannot be), or else there is something each man must do to determine whether or not he will receive the benefit of Jesus' death.

D. God's Offer of Salvation Is Preached in the Gospel to All Men.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 - Men are called to glory by the gospel. To whom is this call extended?

Mark 16:15,16 - The gospel should be preached to every creature in the whole world. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. [Matt. 28:19]

Acts 2:38,39 - The promise of remission and the gift of the Holy Spirit is for ALL, as many as God calls. But the call is sent to everyone in the world!

Calvinists respond to these points by saying that the gospel should be preached to all, however no one can respond to that call unless the Holy Spirit unconditionally works directly on their heart to empower them to respond. But this makes the preaching of the gospel simply a pretense. If the Holy Spirit makes the choice unconditionally, why doesn't the Spirit just lead the person to salvation and forget the preaching?

Acts 2:39 says the promise of the Spirit is to all that are called, and we have shown that all humans should be called by the gospel, Jesus died for all, etc.


II. God Has Decreed Conditions of Salvation which All Men Can Meet.

Calvinism says there is nothing in man that acts as a condition that moves God to choose any certain man to save him. Man is "altogether passive." However, notice the following conditions that the Bible lists as necessary for salvation, and note further that the Bible says everyone can meet these conditions.

A. Men Must Believe in Christ.

Mark 16:15,16 - The gospel is for the whole world. Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved.

John 3:14-16 - Jesus died for the whole world, and whosoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life.

The Scriptures clearly teach that faith is a condition to salvation, and anyone in the world may meet that condition.

B. Men Must Repent.

Acts 17:30,31 - God commands all men everywhere to repent. This refers to all the people who will be judged by Jesus, which means everyone in the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 - God does not want any to perish but all to repent.

Note that all who will be judged must repent (Acts 17:30,31). But those who need to repent are the ones God does not want to see perish. Hence, God does not want anyone in the world to perish. He wants them all to repent.

The Scriptures clearly teach that repentance is a condition of salvation, and everyone may meet that condition.

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