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Author
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Topic: Calvinism vs. Arminianism
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Gadgetere
Community Member
Member # 16198
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posted
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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Calvinism holds to the total depravity of man
Hi, Carol. Actually, no -- while it is called "total depravity", it is actually "total inability". Mankind is not drowning in a sea of sin (so the doctrine contends), he is a spiritual corpse, and can no more consciously receive Jesus than can a rotting cadaver take hold of a thrown life preserver.
But Scripture says WHEN we were dead in our sins God saved us by grace (His!) through faith (ours!). Spiritually dead men can believe and then have life. Jn20:31.
quote:
while Arminianism holds to partial depravity. Total depravity states that every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin; therefore, human beings are unable to come to God on their own accord. Partial depravity states that every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that human beings are unable to place faith in God of their own accord. Note - classical Arminianism rejects "partial depravity" and holds a view very close to Calvinistic "total depravity."
The reality is that everyone is truly called to salvation -- clear in Matt22:2-14, 1Tim2:1-4, John12:32, Acts17:26-31, and many others. It is the CALL that empowers a person to believe; no one said "come to God on his own ability" (Pelagianism), Jesus' call overcomes depravity sufficiently for salvation. Has to be that way; because God is love (1Jn4:16), and love cannot demand its own way (1Cor13:5) -- love can only woo, it cannot compel.
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Calvinism includes the belief that election is unconditional, while Arminianism believes in conditional election. Unconditional election is the view that God elects individuals to salvation based entirely on His will, not on anything inherently worthy in the individual. Conditional election states that God elects individuals to salvation based on His foreknowledge of who will believe in Christ unto salvation, thereby on the condition that the individual chooses God.
Scripture is replete with admonitions to "choose God" -- and not just once, but daily. Col2:6-8, Rom6, Eph4:22-24 (Col3:9-10).
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Calvinism sees the atonement as limited, while Arminianism sees it as unlimited. This is the most controversial of the five points. Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.
Passages like Acts17:26-31 should settle this forever; so too Rom5:17-19, and others.
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Calvinism includes the belief that God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminianism says that an individual can resist the grace of God. Irresistible grace argues that when God calls a person to salvation, that person will inevitably come to salvation. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.
It's all a question of "cause and effect" --- which comes first, belief or heart-change?
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Calvinism holds to perseverance of the saints while Arminianism holds to conditional salvation. Perseverance of the saints refers to the concept that a person who is elected by God will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. Conditional salvation is the view that a believer in Christ can, of his/her own free will, turn away from Christ and thereby lose salvation. Note - many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."
Whatever systems exist (including Calvinism and Arminianism), Scripture over and over and over warns us to "abide in Christ SO THAT we not shrink in shame (because of sin) at His return", 1Jn2:26-28.
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So, in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, who is correct? It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism.
Actually, Scripture is clear on whether a truly-saved-person, can become unsaved. The entire letter of James warns against falling-from-salvation. The entire letter of 2Peter; the entire letter of Galatians, and worst is the entire letter of Hebrews.
Galatians -- one who is "begun in the Spirit" (3:3), "KNOWN by God" (4:9), running well and obeying the truth (5:7), can end in the flesh (3:3), can turn back to weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again (4:7), can become SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE (5:4). Is there a second possible meaning?
Hebrews -- time constrains from quoting every verse, but readers please look up 2:1-3, 3:1 ("Metochos" is partaker/PARTNER), 3:8, 3:12-13, 3:14 (partners IF), 4:1, 4:11 (connect to 3:18-19), 6:4-6 (again "metochos"), 6:7-8 and 11;12, 10:26-29, 10:35 & 39, 12:2, 12:7-9 (an adopted child-of-God can become unadopted!), 12:15, and 12:25. 13:9. These from memory, I look forward to discussion...
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There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians, and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views. Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable.
I gently disagree; although both views fail, Scripture does not -- all Scripture is God-breathed (2Tim3:16), and God intends for us to understand it. It should be possible to successfully exegete so that two people cannot just walk away "agreeing to disagree".
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Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.
The most foundational point, is "God is love"; and love cannot demand its own way. Neither can God sovereignly elect anyone (therefore they have no will), or soeverignly neglect anyone (therefore they have no will). A subset of Calvinism is "Compatibilism", which seeks to connect God's sovereignty with man's free will; in essence, it tries to imbue God with Teflon gloves against the sin which He ultimately, ordains and causes. And that breaks passages like Matt12:25-31.
While Arminianism does not fully reflect Scripture, Calvinism reduces Jesus' sacrifice to "pageantry" (His dying affected no one, it was God's prehistoric election that deterministically caused individual salvation); it casts God as a false judge, condemning men for what He ultimately ordained and caused (regardless of whether He caused sin directly, "Double-Predestination", or indirectly by neglect). Calvinism founds on at least 61 verses --- four foundational or Primaries, Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, Rom8:29-35, Rom9:11-21. The 57+ Secondaries can be solidly refuted from "predestined-election" understanding, usually by immediate context; once most of the Secondaries are overturned, then the Primaries can be examined.
Calvinism is a superior elevated "have-arrived" position; some seminaries teach it. Proponents often say, "I used to believe as you, but I ____" (matured, learned, was lead by the Spirit, etcetera). It does no good to address one or two or 30 or 50 verses --- a Calvinist has no interest as long as any verses remain -- you have to completely empty his arms before he might even think of reconsidering the doctrine. Until then, he will "shake the dust from his feet" of the discussion, so sure is he of Scriptural dictate. But Scripture does not contradict, and any doctrine which promotes contradictions must be re-examined.
Beneath all of this is the question, "What is salvation"? There are three views of "Once Saved Always Saved":
1. Antinomianism (saved Spirit but corrupt sinning flesh); thankfully few hold this. But the others sometimes say, "Backslidden-but-saved" -- no, it's not...
2. Eternal Security -- unlimited atonement, but once "in" either too changed to fall, or God dynamically keeps someone saved, even if taking their life so that their soul lives.
3. Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation (Reformed theology, Calvinism, and others.)
All three OSAS views are not Scriptural, and repeat what Eve was told in the Garden -- "Don't worry, you won't really die." Paul tells us we are at JUST as much risk of deception away from Jesus, as Eve experienced! (2Cor11:3)
In the first place, what is salvation? In Matt25 Jesus separates the sheep from the goats --- what's the difference? What do the SHEEP have, that the goats do not? (And can a goat become a sheep, or a sheep become a goat?)
Until we completely understand what salvation is, it's useless to discuss views like "OSAS" (or Calvinism/Arminianism).
Jesus died; and the veil tore -- why? Why did the veil tear the moment He died?
Is it important?
Posts: 12 | Registered: Mar 2021
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GISMYS13A
Advanced Member
Member # 10597
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posted
Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate=IMHO A WASTE OF TIME. Two old 1400's monks who like to argue. Just read and believe God's word.
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GISMYS13A
Posts: 68 | From: usa | Registered: Mar 2013
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Application is INDIVIDUAL!
Ephesians 4
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,(SPIRITUAL)
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Calvinism vs. Arminianism - which view is correct?
Calvinism and Arminianism are two systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility in the matter of salvation. Calvinism is named for John Calvin, a French theologian who lived from 1509-1564. Arminianism is named for Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.
Both systems can be summarized with five points. Calvinism holds to the total depravity of man while Arminianism holds to partial depravity. Total depravity states that every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin; therefore, human beings are unable to come to God on their own accord. Partial depravity states that every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that human beings are unable to place faith in God of their own accord. Note - classical Arminianism rejects "partial depravity" and holds a view very close to Calvinistic "total depravity."
Calvinism includes the belief that election is unconditional, while Arminianism believes in conditional election. Unconditional election is the view that God elects individuals to salvation based entirely on His will, not on anything inherently worthy in the individual. Conditional election states that God elects individuals to salvation based on His foreknowledge of who will believe in Christ unto salvation, thereby on the condition that the individual chooses God.
Calvinism sees the atonement as limited, while Arminianism sees it as unlimited. This is the most controversial of the five points. Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.
Calvinism includes the belief that God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminianism says that an individual can resist the grace of God. Irresistible grace argues that when God calls a person to salvation, that person will inevitably come to salvation. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.
Calvinism holds to perseverance of the saints while Arminianism holds to conditional salvation. Perseverance of the saints refers to the concept that a person who is elected by God will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. Conditional salvation is the view that a believer in Christ can, of his/her own free will, turn away from Christ and thereby lose salvation. Note - many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."
So, in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, who is correct? It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism. There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians, and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views. Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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