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Author
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Topic: Rise and walk vs. your sins are forgiven
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jimbarn
Advanced Member
Member # 7053
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posted
Melina,
You are not off.Your first thought was accurate.
The O.T. way of salvation was the same as N.T.
It was through faith same as ours.
O.T. saints looked forward to Jesus, while we look back.(and as you know,hindsight is always 20/20)
Romans 4 gives an example.
Also Hebrews 10 gives the account of what God requires.
Hebrews 13:8 " Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."
I hope this helps.
Barney ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 43 | From: Unicoi,Tn. | Registered: Feb 2008
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Melina
New Member
Member # 7061
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posted
Hi,
I always just assumed that Christ's crucifixion on the cross reached not only forward in time, but also backwards. Though forgiveness was given in the old testament, it was based on Jesus dying in the new. If Christ had not died in the new there would be no forgiveness - ever, I'd suppose... As the whole Bible revolves around the most important event in history, Christ's sacrifice and resurrection, so does all time revolve around it.
But now I'm thinking about all the animal sacrifices... Were they just a symbol of Christ's sacrifice and just a hollow offering in themselves, or did they actually achieve forgiveness by sacrificing animals in that day and age, before the sacrifice of Christ? No - that can't have been so, or the only reason for Christ's death would have been to make forgiveness easier, not possible. Only because of Christ's sacrifice, is forgiveness possible - no matter when or where!
Of course - I could be totally off my tree with this one...
Posts: 4 | From: australia | Registered: Feb 2008
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phillip tidwell
Advanced Member
Member # 6966
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posted
Hi Carol. Saw your reply to my rambling post yesterday and wanted to give it serious consideration before responding. Jimbarn's is the only answer I know to be possible. Moses killed the Egyptian (Exodus 2:12) and must have been forgiven by God well before the crucifixion. Abraham lied about his wife Sar'ai being his sister in Gen. 12 and again in Gen. 20 and was ultimately forgiven. In Gen. 26:6-11 Isaac also lied about his wife Rebekah and was apparently forgiven. One can safely conclude God forgave these specific instances, especially in light of the fact that Moses appeared with Jesus in the transfiguration (Mark 9:4).
That still leaves open the much larger question as to why the incredibly cruel death of crucifixion was the only way possible to enable our salvation. Couldn't there have been some other way? I can only take it on faith that there was no other way and remain unable to articulate why on my own. If it's not too presumptious of me, you present a very deep question. Perhaps we can only continue to ponder such things in our hearts as Mary did.
Luke 1:29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be.
Luke 2:19 But Mary kept all these things, pondering them in her heart.
Luke 2:51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.
Posts: 63 | Registered: Jan 2008
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Hi jimbarn,
I'm way out here in Colorado. But this is great-I too feel as if I know some of the people here.
I know our Lord Jesus is, and was during His earthly ministry, 100% God and 100% man. But, still an interesting question.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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jimbarn
Advanced Member
Member # 7053
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posted
Carol,
This was possible because He was God.The God-man.
!00 percent of each at the same time.
He could heal because He made us in the first place.
I had the pleasure of meeting Phillip this morning,I wish I could meet you also.After following your comments and enjoying your insight,I feel I know you and many others on here.
Barney
Posts: 43 | From: Unicoi,Tn. | Registered: Feb 2008
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Hi phillip,
I found this in the Life Application Bible Commentary: Luke
Any religious huckster can go around handing out “forgiveness” and dispensing God’s favors to the gullible. It’s like the man who says he can dunk a basketball or play piano on a concert level … but never “feels like” demonstrating his skills and abilities. How do you know he can back up his talk unless he shows some proof? That was the situation confronting Jesus in this episode with the paralyzed man and the religious leaders. He said the man’s sins were forgiven, but anyone could say that. How would the Pharisees, or the paralytic himself for that matter, know that what Jesus claimed was true? Jesus offered this as proof: The paralyzed man would stand up and walk, a pretty convincing bit of evidence that Jesus spoke with authority. You don’t have that kind of miracle-working, sin-forgiving authority, but you follow the one who does. Therefore, your life should be consistent with your words. Your actions should back up your claims to belong to him.
And I agree that healing this man had to be easier than the crucifixion.
But here's another question, if I may. Since Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins, how was He able to forgive sins before the crucifixion?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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phillip tidwell
Advanced Member
Member # 6966
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posted
Luke 5:21-23 “And the scribes and the Pharisees began to question, saying, ‘Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God only?’ When Jesus perceived their questionings, he answered them, ‘Why do you question in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’”?
They actually raise a very legitimate question. Who can forgive us of our sins except for God?
But their question is axiomatic. Clearly all our sins are against God and only God can effectively forgive them.
In contrast, the question Jesus presents in return demands much more contemplation. At first glance, it would seem to perform some miracle healing that enables a paralytic to be able to walk in a sudden moment of time simply by speaking the words “I say to you, rise, take up your bed and go home” is a real trump card. There is no denying that. It was a miracle that was from God and in a fashion that only God could accomplish. So Jesus proved His point.
Still I’m left with wondering the answer to His question of which is easier. I think healing the paralytic was easier than forgiving our sins. The crucifixion and Resurrection day must surely point to that conclusion.
Posts: 63 | Registered: Jan 2008
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