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Author Topic: Subtrafuge
CHEWY
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I don't think I said their first sin was going nude. My opinion is that their first sin like Satan's was covetousness. They wanted to be in control instead of allowing God to be God, and yes the act of eating the fruit was a sin as well. My point in mentioning their nudity was that if they hadn't sinned initially they would not have never known they were nude as it would have been "bliss."

I personally believe that anytime we commit a sinful act we actually sin twice. Covet should be defined as any point when we desire something outside God's will enough that we will pursue obtaining it even though we know it is against God's will. Thus, we covet first then we commit the act of sin we are coveting over.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear-

Chewy-

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lonlesol
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quote:
I also find it interesting that in Genesis 3:7 that Adam and Eve both suddenly realized that they were naked and were ashamed. God had not [that we ware told] spoken with them about any ungodliness existing in being publicly nude. Yet they were convicted.
Chewy, the sin that Adam and Eve made was not that they went publicly nude since they had nothing to hide because they had never sinned before they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...they hid from God because they knew that they disobeyed Him...


Genesis 2
Adam and Eve

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.


Genesis 3
The Fall of Man

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam [c] named his wife Eve, [d] because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

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CHEWY
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MAY GOD BLESS YOU.....
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnowHim
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Jesus Radio
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phillip tidwell
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THANK YOU! The stream of logic you share is wonderful and so well substantiated by the Scriptures. This has provided some real insight into God’s law written onto man’s heart I’ve never contemplated and I hope blesses you and other participants as much as it has me. For some reason, I and others have been reticent to attribute the role of the Holy Spirit in the early Old Testament, but your insights raise a serious question as to why. This is going to be interesting as we go forward in our studies.

The point you raise about Adam and Eve suddenly realizing their nakedness is fascinating.
Prior to eating the forbidden fruit: “And the man and his wife were both naked, and were NOT ASHAMED.” (Gen. 2:25)
Subsequent to eating the forbidden fruit: “Then the eyes of both were opened, and they KNEW that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons.” (Gen. 3:7) Then the Lord God calls to Adam and he answers: “I heard the sound of thee in the garden, and I was AFRAID, because I was naked; and I HID myself.” (Gen. 3:10).

Once sin was introduced, Adam and Eve suddenly realized there was cause for shame and they needed to cover that shame somehow. They were naked all along, so what changed? Trust was broken. They could no longer risk being “exposed” to each other or to God. They suddenly had to be guarded about who they really were. They afraid to “be real” as the Fountain of Life members describe it.

“There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.” (1 John 4:18)

No one should take the goal at Fountain of Life “To Be Real” lightly.

God bless you for sharing your faith in this forum!

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CHEWY
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Hey Phillip-
You have indeed raised an interesting point that this did happen before the "Law" was given. I also find it interesting that in Genesis 3:7 that Adam and Eve both suddenly realized that they were naked and were ashamed. God had not [that we ware told] spoken with them about any ungodliness existing in being publicly nude. Yet they were convicted. On the complete other hand, we find Cain and Able making sacrifices to God before those "lawful" mandates were apparently handed out, and also we know that Abram [before he was renamed Abraham] paid 1/10 [tithe] to Melchizedek [arguably Christ or to others God]. Melchizedek is pointed out as being a priest of the "most High God." There was no Levitical law written as of that time.

I think it is safe to say that God stands on his teaching that God's law is written in man's heart from birth, even creation. [2 Cor. 3:3; Romans 1:18-20] This poses a strong argument with the atheist who says that everything is relative. How else do we know right from wrong if there is no Supreme Example of what right is? I feel sure that Abraham knew that "lying" was wrong even though the ten commandments hadn't been given .

Apparently, at least the conscience of man and [I believe] conviction from the Holy Spirit began with the first sin of Adam and will continue until the end of time and sin.

Christ cried form the cross, "Forgive them for they know not what they do. Luke 23:34" These people who crucified Christ did not realize at that time they were killing God incarnate, nor did they realize they were fulfilling prophecy, but I have to believe within their heart of hearts they knew what they were doing was wrong.

Good question.

Chewy-

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phillip tidwell
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I'll certainly agree with the grace aspect as a key component of the questions raised. As you and David C. both observed, it's a cause for rejoicing when we who depend on "mercy not sacrifice" (Matt. 9:13 Hosea 6:6) see what perfect love can accomplish. That aligns nicely with the points you made in your recent commentary regarding the lineage of the Christ.

Interesting question you raise about whether there was indeed some reproof given to Abraham, but we don't know (Rev. 22:18-19). Now that I've said that, a light just came on. Imagine the anguish of letting his wife "be with" someone else and the humiliation of admitting it to Abim’elech.

More interesting is the comparison with David's transgressions of the 6th. and 7th. commandments as you observed from 2 Samuel 11. David clearly repented and suffered consequences. I had not considered the comparison until you pointed it out. An argument could be made Abraham repented and suffered consequences in a different way.

God bless you both for sharing your insights.

I'm still wondering if there is anything to learn about Abraham's offense being before the law and David's after. It's clear that murder was a sin after Cain killed Abel, but that's all I see that clearly defined law until Exodus. Further, with the exception of the test of Abraham to slay Isaac, why did they make burnt offerings without being directed to by God?

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Daddy Raptor
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While Abraham is greatly revered at the Father of the Jewish nation, the Bible presents him, as well as everyone else, warts and all! Our Biblical heros were people of like passion as we are and sometimes failed miserably.
Another example was David, a man after God's own heart, who committed adultery and murder!
The promise of the Abrahamic Covenant may make it seem that he was rewarded for his deception but, I don't believe that was the case. He reaped what he sowed but, it was not recorded how.
What I see is God's grace at work in using imperfect people to fulfill his plan. People just like me and you! That encourages my heart.

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KnowHim
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I have thought on this several times, because I know that this type of conduct was not consistent with how ones should conduct themselves. I believe that like most of use fear took it’s toll on him and he gave in to it.

I know Abram was most known for his faith. WOW, if a man known by God for his faith slips up and does this out of fear, what will the regular Joe do? Scary.

I know for sure I do and say things I wish I had not have done. If one truly loves the Lord Jesus Christ, this will hurt badly.

But it brings to mind what Paul said:

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. ….
Romans 7:15-25 (KJV)

It is so good to know God does not deal us what we really deserve. Thanks to our Lord Jesus Christ who paid our sin dept, we get another chance. Makes me want to jump up and shout, thank you Jesus!

I don’t think this was included in the bible to make us think it is OK to lie. I think it is there to show us even Abram had his bad days. But God still took care of Him and set things straight. He loves us and it sure makes me feel good to know I will not be stomped if I mess up. Because I sure have messed up more then my share. But I know I don’t want to bring dishonor to our Lord Jesus so I try my best to do what the bible says is right. And I ask for forgiveness quickly when I see I have blown it again.


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phillip tidwell
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I never realized Abraham claimed that his wife Sar’ai was actually his sister on, not one, but two occasions to protect himself. The first time was to Pharaoh in Egypt (Gen. 12) and the second time was to Abim’elech (Gen. 20). It’s odd to me that on both occasions, Abraham actually greatly benefited financially instead of being punished. It’s also interesting that Pharaoh and Abim’elech are the ones who suffered a form of punishment. Even though Abraham was not “technically” lying, as his wife was also his sister (Gen. 20:12), this seems like a significant offense. Once again, God’s sense of logic and justice are different from my own.

Gen. 26:6-11 Isaac pulled the same trick as his father Abraham when he lied that his wife Rebekah was his sister. Further, he did it for the same reason as Abraham, which was because someone would kill him to take his wife.

Does this all get placed in consideration of the fact that these events took place before the law was given or what? Comments anyone?

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