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Topic: Rapture--A Dangerous DECEPTION
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Carol Swenson
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Okay, I can see how saying 7 days and then 7 years makes it seem like they're the same thing. But what that sentence would really be saying is the 7 year Tribulation comes 7 days after the Rapture, and I don't think that's what the author intended. Actually, no one knows how soon after the Rapture the Tribulation begins. It begins when Antichrist signs a covenant with Israel.
Those seven days remind me of creation week. It's just my imagination, I admit, but I can picture God creating super massive rain clouds, and opening fissures in the Earth’s bedrock to bring water up from the really deep places of the Earth to the surface. He can do such things instantly, but He created the world in seven days, so maybe He also created the flood in seven days before He unleashed it on the world.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
According to pre-trib believers, the seven days in the flood story represents the seven year tribulation.
Now from a careful read we note that the ark did not lift until the end of the seven days because the rain didn’t start until then. That would leave the rapture at the end of the seven years.
The pre-trib theory just doesn’t add up.
I've never heard that the seven days represent the seven years of Tribulation. Nothing happened in those seven days except preparation for the flood. Could you please tell the readers what your source is for that information?
As I said before, for the ark to float on the water and rise as the water rises is not relevant. The important thing is that God saved them from the judgment. I don't think that during the Rapture we will float up into the sky. 1 Corinthians says that in the twinkling of an eye we will be transformed.
Sorry Carol, I was reading the article you posted yourself. http://www.bibleprophesy.org/rapturegenesis2.htm
“God calls Noah into the ark, and 7 days later, the flood comes. So, Noah is a type of the rapture before the 7 year tribulation, at the end of which all of God's enemies are destroyed at Armageddon, like in the flood.”
I agree with you that the important thing is that God saved them from the judgment.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
According to pre-trib believers, the seven days in the flood story represents the seven year tribulation.
Now from a careful read we note that the ark did not lift until the end of the seven days because the rain didn’t start until then. That would leave the rapture at the end of the seven years.
The pre-trib theory just doesn’t add up.
I've never heard that the seven days represent the seven years of Tribulation. Nothing happened in those seven days except preparation for the flood. Could you please tell the readers what your source is for that information?
As I said before, for the ark to float on the water and rise as the water rises is not relevant. The important thing is that God saved them from the judgment. I don't think that during the Rapture we will float up into the sky. 1 Corinthians says that in the twinkling of an eye we will be transformed.
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Bloodbought
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According to pre-trib believers, the seven days in the flood story represents the seven year tribulation.
Now from a careful read we note that the ark did not lift until the end of the seven days because the rain didn’t start until then. That would leave the rapture at the end of the seven years.
The pre-trib theory just doesn’t add up.
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Carol Swenson
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Read your Bible slowly, carefully and completely so you don't misunderstand what it is saying.
quote:
It was on the same day that Noah entered the ark that it started to rain. Noah went into the ark because of the waters of the flood.
Wrong. It did not start to rain for seven days.
Genesis 7:1 - 5 (NASB)
1Then the LORD said to Noah, “Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time. 2“You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female; 3also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth. 4“For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made.” 5Noah did according to all that the LORD had commanded him.
quote:
From the day Noah went into the ark it rained seven days and the water was on the earth for forty days.
Wrong. It rained for forty days and forty nights, and they were in the ark for over a year before it was dry enough for them to leave.
Genesis 7:11 - 12 (NASB)
11In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened. 12The rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights.
The rains started on the seventeenth day of the second month (Gen. 7:11). The rain stopped after 40 days, which would be on the twenty-seventh day of the third month (Gen. 7:12). However, the water continued to rise for another 110 days and reached its peak after 150 days (v. 24). At that time, the ark rested on a mountain peak of Ararat (8:4). It would take 150 days for the water to recede (v. 3), which takes us to the twelfth month, the seventeenth day. Two months and ten days later, Noah and his family left the ark and set the animals free (v. 14). From the day that God shut them in, they had been in the ark a year and ten days.
Genesis 8:1 - 5 (NASB)
1But God remembered Noah and all the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the ark; and God caused a wind to pass over the earth, and the water subsided. 2Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained; 3and the water receded steadily from the earth, and at the end of one hundred and fifty days the water decreased. 4In the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat. 5The water decreased steadily until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains became visible.
Genesis 8:13 - 17 (NASB)
13Now it came about in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the water was dried up from the earth. Then Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and behold, the surface of the ground was dried up. 14In the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dry. 15Then God spoke to Noah, saying, 16“Go out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and your sons’ wives with you. 17“Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, birds and animals and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, that they may breed abundantly on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth.”
quote:
If as those who hold to pre-trib rapture believe that Noah is a type of the rapture, where in the flood story does it suggest that there was another chance for some when the door of the ark was shut and it lifted off the ground?
To say he is a type for the Rapture does not mean he has to be a type for the entire book of Revelation!
quote:
Once Christ comes for His church the day of grace is ended.
If you think there is still hope after He takes His church you are deceived.
I agree that the Age of Grace ends with the Rapture of His church, but you think that there is no Tribulation and there is no Millennial Kingdom. Things will just continue, becoming steadily worse, until the Lord comes and removes His people before He destroys the Earth. To believe that, you must ignore hundreds of verses and all the prophecy about the end times, and all God's promises to Israel.
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Bloodbought
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It was on the same day that Noah entered the ark that it started to rain. Noah went into the ark because of the waters of the flood.
Gen 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
From the day Noah went into the ark it rained seven days and the water was on the earth for forty days.
Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
If as those who hold to pre-trib rapture believe that Noah is a type of the rapture, where in the flood story does it suggest that there was another chance for some when the door of the ark was shut and it lifted off the ground?
Once Christ comes for His church the day of grace is ended.
If you think there is still hope after He takes His church you are deceived.
Prepare to meet Him before He returns or you will be lost forever.
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Carol Swenson
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Pre Tribulation Rapture Types in Genesis
Enoch
Not much is said about Enoch in Scripture, but he has an interesting story, he was "taken", it does not say he died. There is "The book of Enoch" which is very interesting reading, but it is not considered inspired. Enoch lived 365 years, which is interesting as there are 365 days in a year...
Gen 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Enoch's testimony of the Second Coming
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
And when Enoch's son Methuselah died, then the flood came, in the same year.
Genesis 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Genesis 5:25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech.
Genesis 5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
Genesis 5:29 And he called his name Noah
Methuselah lived to the age of 969 years old.
When he was 187, Lamech was born and he lived another 182 years 'til Noah was born.
187 + 182 = 369. So, Noah was born when Methuselah was 369.
The Flood came when Noah was 600. 600+369 is 969, which is how old Methusalah was when he died, so scripture confirms that Methusalah died when the flood came...
Gen 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
So after Methuselah died at age 969, that was the same year the flood came.
Enoch walked with God, and Enoch could symbolize the Father.
Methuselah, the son of Enoch, could typify the Son of God?
Do both Enoch and Methuselah teach about the rapture?
Jesus was taken up to God in Acts 1, the first to be resurrected in an incorruptable body to immortality. Methuselah did not have immortality, and was not raptured as Enoch, but Methuselah did live longer than any man in the bible. Methuselah's death just before the flood could symbolize the pretribulation rapture. Enoch, was taken, which is like the rapture. Can we accept this if we realize that Jesus symbolized both the Father and the Son?
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Thus, Methuselah's death right before the flood, (through the type of his father Enoch's rapture, through the type of Jesus's rapture who symbolized both the Father and the Son) is a type of the rapture right before the tribulation.
Of course, we can simplify, and just look at Enoch, and say Enoch is a type of "rapture" prior to the tribulation of the flood. But through Methuselah, and Jesus, I believe we have a more clear understanding, that the rapture happens right before the tribulation, the same year.
Noah entering the ark
Scriptures in Matthew 24, Luke 17, and 2 Peter 2, indicate that the story of Noah teaches about the return of Jesus:
Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Those who deny the pretribulation rapture call attention to the fact that Noah "went through" the tribulation of the Flood. Also, they point out that as the wicked were destroyed in the flood, so too will the wicked be taken away at the end of the tribulation. I don't disagree with either point; that Noah survived the time of trouble, and that the wicked will be destoryed at the end of the tribulation. But those are NOT the only comparisons to be made.
The Bible emphasizes that the people are acting as if LIFE IS PERFECTLY NORMAL, "they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day" (Matt 24:28), that the world is taking NO NOTE of the COMING judgment.
But the great tribulation to come IS a time of judgment, and DURING that judgment, life will NOT be normal. Half the world will be killed as first a quarter of the people on the earth die, and then a remaining third die. Men will be tormented for five months with pain from the plague of the mark of the beast. Men will try to kill themselves, and not be able. There will be supernatural beings such as the antichrist and the two witnesses who both have the power to command fire to come down from heaven. This is NOT a description of life as normal.
Further, Peter speaks of deliverance; that God will "deliver the godly out of temptations" (2 Peter 2:9), and this is a statement about how Noah's experience is a comparison to how the pretribulation rapture will deliver the righteous before the tribulation.
What WAS Noah's experience? Was it like those saints of the tribulation who will face martyrdom and persecution? NO! Was Noah being persecuted by the wicked during the time of judgment? NO! Did Noah have to endure the tribulations of the judgment and swim hard or hold his breath underwater in the SAME ENVIRONMENT as the wicked? NO!
What WAS Noah's experience? As we will see, Noah went into the ark, the place where God was, and God shut the door behind him, and Noah floated above the waters which brought the judgment that came upon the world. Likewise, the pretribulation rapture will take believers up into heaven, through the "open door", to be in the place where Jesus Christ is, above the earth where the judgment will come upon the world.
Here are a few specific details of how Noah's example teaches about the pretribulation rapture.
God calls Noah into the ark, and 7 days later, the flood comes. So, Noah is a type of the rapture before the 7 year tribulation, at the end of which all of God's enemies are destroyed at Armageddon, like in the flood.
Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Genesis 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
I understand verse 4 & 5 to mean that Noah obeyed, and went in when the Lord told him to.
Controversy arrives when people forget that Noah was the type to obey God, and they assume the "selfsame" day in verse 13 refers to the same day the rain fell. The only way you can assume that Noah went into the ark late, is if you assume that Noah did not obey the Lord for a period of seven days. Do you think it is realistic that Noah, after spending 120 years to build an ark, would disobey a direct command from God for a period of 7 full days right before the world was destroyed, in direct contrast to the scripture in verse 5?
I think that the "selfsame day" in verse 13 refers to the action phrase at the end of verse 16, "as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in".
Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
...
Genesis 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
Note, back up in Gen 7:1, we saw that God calls to Noah from inside the ark, to come in, which is similar to "Come up hither" in Rev. And the door is also a strong symbol of the rapture.
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
The parallel gets even stronger when we realize Noah's ark is a type of heaven.
Noah's ark is like the ark of the covenant, in that God's presence is in both. Remember, God told Noah to "come into" the ark, indicating that God was in the ark. (Genesis 7:1) God's presence was also in the ark of the covenant:
Exodus 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
Even the construction ratios are the same: 3 to 5. Noahs' ark is 30 to 50, The ark of the covenant is 1.5 to 2.5 cubits.
Gen 6:14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
Gen 6:15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
Exodus 25:10 And they shall make an ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof.
The ark of the covenant is a symbol of heavenly things.
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Thus, the ark that Noah went into, like the ark of the covenant, is also a symbol of heaven, like that heavenly bridal chamber of the wedding. And Noah, entering the ark seven days before the flood, to be in the place where God was, and God shutting the door behind him, is a symbol of the pre tribulation rapture.
Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
Ezek 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
Here is an interesting verse, if we consider that waters represent people from Rev 17:15.
Gen 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth:
Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the ***** sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
As the first day of the first month of the calandar year, it supports the Feast of Trumpets rapture, as the Feast of Trumpets takes place on the first day of the 7th religious month, which is the first calandar month of the new year.
Num 29:1 And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.
Thus, if the waters represent people, and the waters "were dried up from off the earth" on a certain day, then that indicates the rapture on "the Feast of Trumpets".
Further, Christians carry the waters of the Holy Spirit. At the rapture, the waters being dried up from off the earth is like the "removal of the restrainer" in 2 Thess 2.
Noah mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament:
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/rapturegenesis2.htm
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Carol Swenson
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On the very same day Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark, they and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, all sorts of birds. So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life. Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed it behind him.
Then the flood came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth. (Genesis 7:13-17)
It was the LORD who closed the door of the ark. Noah and his family were out of harm's way BEFORE the flood began. No, they weren't taken to Heaven - there is only one Rapture, (aside from Enoch), and that is still future. But it shows that the righteous were safe before the judgment began. And they stayed safe until the judgment was over. The fact that the ark did not rise until the water lifted it up is not relevant. The important thing is that the Lord shut the door to keep Noah safe before the flood began.
Note Mat 25:10:
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
And Revelation 4:1 - 2 (NASB)
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” 2Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.
The ark did not "come down" btw - it landed on a high mountain.
In the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat. (Genesis 8:4)
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Bloodbought
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In Noah’s time, which came first, the raising of the ark or the wrath of the rain poured out on the wicked? They came together. It makes no sense to say that the ark was lifted before judgment fell.
In the same way, it makes no sense to say that the saints will rapture before judgment falls. There was no pre-trib rapture before the flood; salvation and judgment came at the same time and on the same day and that is how it will be when Christ returns. The saints will be caught up while at the exact same time the wicked will experience the wrath of God,
Noah was not taken up to heaven, but he was in the ark, a picture of those who are in Christ and he was as it ware, lifted into the air just enough to be above the destruction of the wicked and where he could not even see their dilemma, He could only look up, because there was only a window in the top of the ark. After the judgment of the wicked the ark came back down, a picture of Christ coming with the church to set up His kingdom.
Once the ark began to rise there was no second chance for anyone, all who were not in the ark were destroyed. In the same way, all who are not in Christ when He returns will be destroyed.
Any second chance teaching is false.
The church will not be effected by the wrath of God, but they do experience tribulation, although they sorrow not as others which have no hope, because His grace is sufficient in every trial.
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Carol Swenson
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Amen Betty. They may not even survive the chaos caused by the Rapture...
...and tares can be deadly.
"...bind them in bundles to burn them."
Tares (Darnel)
A friend recently wrote to me about how prolific her garden was, but that the weeds were prospering as well. She said that because of the rains, the weeds would be easy to pull up. I thought how when we allow the rain of God's word into our life, the lies, untruths and deceptions are also easy to weed out. But if the word is not given its place of priority, then when those evils take root and the ground hardens, how hard it is to pull up the weeds! Have you ever tried to pull a weed out of a dry, caked, hardened piece of ground? What usually happens is you pull off the green foliage above the soil, but the root remains, only to quickly grow up again. Notice the word "quickly." Weeds don't grow slowly. But the trick in pulling them up successfully is to soak the ground with water, soften the soil and then weed-pulling becomes a pleasure again. I remember when I was a boy and I had to weed my Dad's garden. The tops of the weeds would come off and I would say to myself, "Oh, well, at least it LOOKS LIKE I got that weed out. Dad won't know," and I would leave it, being satisfied with that. In the spiritual realm, apathy towards the weeds in our life is just as deadly to us as the real weeds are to the future fruit of a vegetable garden. Water, or the word of God, plays a crucial part in both the natural realm and the spiritual in staying weed-free.
Jesus told the parable of the tares and the wheat in Matthew 13:24-30. The tares are a weed plant, but Jesus didn't say to pull up the tares. He said to let the wheat and the tares grow up together and the angels would deal with the tares at the end of the age. I sure would have liked to apply that to my Dad's idea of weeding. The difference between the garden I weeded and the wheat field Jesus spoke of is this: my garden was vegetables, planted and grown in rows with dirt paths between. The weeds were easy to get to and pulling them without harming the good plants was easy enough. Wheat is grown in fields, each sheaf next to another with no paths, creating a carpet effect when looked at from a distance. Pulling up the tares in this situation would endanger the wheat stocks as well. You just don't weed wheat.
Jesus said,
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Holman's Bible Dictionary defines TARES as follows:
"TARES KJV term for grassy weeds resembling wheat, generally identified as darnel (genus Lolium)"
It is pretty much accepted today that the tares Jesus spoke of are darnel of the genus Lolium. Cephalaria syriaca is also a possibility mentioned by some researchers, but based on archeological studies, its evident lack in Biblical times would seem to indicate it is not the tare of the Bible. Secular dictionaries also define the tare as most likely being darnel:
"Darnel is a weed grass (probably bearded darnel or Lolium temulentum) that looks very much like wheat until it is mature, when the seeds reveal a great difference. Darnel seeds aren't good for much except as chicken feed or to burn to prevent the spread of this weed" (World English Dictionary).
Easton's Bible Dictionary describes "tares" as follows:
"the bearded darnel, mentioned only in Matt. 13:25-30. It is the Lolium temulentum, a species of rye-grass, the seeds of which are a strong soporific poison. It bears the closest resemblance to wheat till the ear appears, and only then the difference is discovered. It grows plentifully in Syria and Palestine."
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition 2000 defines "soporific: as:
ADJECTIVE: 1. Inducing or tending to induce sleep. 2. Drowsy.
NOUN: A drug or other substance that induces sleep; a hypnotic.
Smith's Bible Dictionary offers these comments on the "tares":
"There can be little doubt that the zizania of the parable, Mt 13:25, denotes the weed called "darnel" (Lolium temulentum). . . . The grains of the L. temulentum, if eaten, produce convulsions, and even death."
A very interesting note I found on Botanical.com concerning darnel was this:
"The admixture of the grain with those of the nutritious cereals amongst which it is often found growing should be guarded against, as its properties are generally regarded as deleterious. Gerard tells us: 'the new bread wherein Darnel is eaten hot causeth drunkenness.' When Darnel has been given medicinally in a harmful quantity, it is recorded to have produced all the symptoms of drunkenness: a general trembling, followed by inability to walk, hindered speech and vomiting. For this reason the French call Darnel: 'Ivraie,' from Ivre (drunkenness); the word Darnel is itself of French origin and testifies to its intoxicating qualities, being derived from an old French word Darne, signifying stupefied. The ancients supposed it to cause blindness, hence with the Romans, lolio victitare, to live on Darnel, was a phrase applied to a dim-sighted person.
"The alleged poisonous properties of Darnel are now generally believed to be due to a fungus" (http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/g/grasse34.html#dar).
Interesting also is the fact that farmers in the modern wheatbelt of America have to take measures to control the effects of tares (in this case, lolium rigidum) on their cattle due to bacteria (ARGT, Annual Ryegrass Toxicity). In a 30 year study, 250,000 sheep and 600 cattle died because of ARGT, not to mention the effects of intoxification on a score of others.
Recapping the symptoms in the various definitions above concerning darnel and/or its fungus, they are:
1. Sleepiness, drowsiness
2. Hypnotic episodes
3. Convulsions
4. Drunkenness, intoxication
5. Trembling
6. Inability to walk
7. Hindered speech
8. Vomiting
9. Stupification
10. Dim-sightedness
Other sites I visited include giddiness, apathy and various abnormal sensations as effects of darnel.
In the early days of "the move of God," we saw all of these things and they are still happening today. Not only is there darnel in the Church, the darnel has apparently been affected by fungus. Not only that, but one must wonder how many cases of spiritual blindness and death have occurred.
Some say darnel in itself is not harmful, often being used for hay for livestock. They say that it's when the parasite fungus takes up residence within the seed head that it becomes deadly in the physical realm. But, in Jesus' parable, the analogy does not hold water. Spiritually, darnel has the destiny of being cast into the fire. Wheat is to be gathered into the barn. It may not appear that spiritual darnel is that dangerous, but when one looks at the end result, it is deadly:
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
There is a time to distinguish between darnel and wheat. The fruit of the darnel is smaller than the fruit produced by true wheat. They say the difference is very distinguishable and obvious, and the difference in the sizes of the seeds makes separating them an easy task. There are those who have convulsed, been made drunk, trembled uncontrollably, stammered in their speech, were stupified, turned giddy, etc., who have tried to tell us that that was wheat. There are also those who have not fallen into such things, but have brought confusion into the Church with darnel such as the non-trinitarian doctrine, a watered-down gospel, and agendas that lead the Church off into corporate efforts God never sanctioned. Are these things wheat or darnel? Some are obviously darnel, while with others, it takes time to make the distinction. This I know for sure: the One who planted the good seed which bears fruit will come back to harvest His wheat, and not one grain of darnel will be found in the barn.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/tares.html
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Betty Louise
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WildB,
Ezk. can't help it, he has invested all his hopes in weeds and is afraid not to use them. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I guess we just got to let him grow his weeds and let God deal with him, BUT I am not going to allow him to give people that they can wait until after the rapture to get saved. TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
You show your ignorance if you think tares are weeds.
I'm not a tare! Those who teach the ever popular pre-trib rapture have been deceived by tares.
There's a big difference between a weed and a tare.
I guess Biblical ignorance can be expected from NIV readers.
 WildB didn't say anything about tares.
But anyway...since you brought it up...
tare
–noun
1. any of various vetches, especially Vicia sativa.
2. the seed of a vetch.
3. Bible - a noxious weed, probably the darnel.
A noxious tare!!! Oh no no!!!  Icky. No no. Nope. Uh-uh. No no no no!
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Ezekiel 13:20
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
I see you & BL still have the sillyness weed seeders at bay,lol.
Keep up the Good and Faithful work my sisters,
BigC,
Maintain....
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
You show your ignorance if you think tares are weeds.
I'm not a tare! Those who teach the ever popular pre-trib rapture have been deceived by tares.
There's a big difference between a weed and a tare.
I guess Biblical ignorance can be expected from NIV readers.
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WildB
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I see you & BL still have the sillyness weed seeders at bay,lol.
Keep up the Good and Faithful work my sisters,
BigC,
Maintain....
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
There's only one Shepherd and there's only one fold. God does not have two plans of Salvation.
The woman is not the Jews,it is the True Church,the Bride of Christ.
Christ only returns once after the tribulation,not twice as some false teachers/preachers say.
There is only one Shepherd, our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 10:16
I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
The Good Shepherd unites the flock. And the unity does not come from the fact that we're all shoved into the same fold, it comes from the fact that we all love and serve the same Shepherd. It's not an ecumenical unity, it doesn't come about because of the good work of the council for Jews and Christians, or whatever it is. It doesn't come about because of some ecclesiastical structure, it's the unity of love and obedience to Christ. If you're a Jew and love and obey Christ, if you're a Gentile and love and obey Christ, that's the same flock with one Shepherd.
The woman is Israel who gave birth to Jesus the Christ.
Christ only returns once after the Tribulation. This is true. We are Raptured before the Tribulation, and He comes to Earth after the Tribulation. None of the Rapture passages say He comes to Earth - they say He calls and we go to Him. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Betty,
You're absolutely right. But, they think there is no Tribulation, or that it will be a time of peace and prosperity. They're living in denial.
Oh there will be tribulation alright. How would anti-christ come in peacefully and prosperously if the world has not gone through a terrible time of tribulation?
God will protect His own during that time. The woman flees into the wilderness. (Rev.12)He doesn't give her a pair of wings to fly away with!
Now you're saying Antichrist comes AFTER the Tribulation?
No, the Antichrist signs a seven year covenant with Israel, and that BEGINS the Tribulation because it is an unholy agreement between God's chosen people and the devil. The Antichrist promises peace and prosperity, but he is a LIAR. He brings war and slaughters millions of people (a multitude too great to number). And God pours out His wrath on the God-hating, devil-worshiping world during this "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7).
Betty is right - the woman is Israel.
Revelation 12:1-2
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Her crown of twelve stars are the 12 tribes. She is Israel who gave birth to Jesus the Christ.
During the last half of the Tribulation, Antichrist tries to destroy Israel, and he murders countless numbers of Jews around the world, but those Jews from Jerusalem who come to believe in Christ are protected from him in a place prepared by God. Most people think this refers to Petra.
The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. (Revelation 12:14-16)
This also corresponds to Jesus' warning in His Olivet Discourse.
So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. (Matthew 24:15-22)
The parallel passage in Luke 21 adds what Matthew does not tell us, that Jerusalem will be surrounded by hostile armies at the time of the end. The Jews who did not believe in Christ and escape to the place of protection in the middle of the Tribulation will be attacked by the Antichrist's army at the end of the Tribulation just before Christ comes to rescue them.
When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.
How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24)
Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. (Luke 21:27)
This same scene is depicted by the Old Testament prophet Zechariah.
Behold, a day of the LORD is coming, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in the midst of you. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. (Zechariah 14:1-3)
And the prophet Joel foresaw this calamity.
Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand--a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was of old nor ever will be in ages to come. Before them fire devours, behind them a flame blazes. Before them the land is like the garden of Eden, behind them, a desert waste--nothing escapes them. They have the appearance of horses; they gallop along like cavalry. With a noise like that of chariots they leap over the mountain tops, like a crackling fire consuming stubble, like a mighty army drawn up for battle.
At the sight of them, nations are in anguish; every face turns pale. They charge like warriors; they scale walls like soldiers. They all march in line, not swerving from their course. They do not jostle each other; each marches straight ahead. They plunge through defenses without breaking ranks. They rush upon the city; they run along the wall. They climb into the houses; like thieves they enter through the windows. Before them the earth shakes, the sky trembles, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.
The LORD utters His voice before His army; Surely His camp is very great, For strong is he who carries out His word. The day of the LORD is indeed great and very awesome, And who can endure it? (Joel 2:1-11)
And the passage from Daniel you quoted above.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Daniel 7:21-22
v.21 I beheld,and the same horn(anti-christ)made war with the saints,and prevailed against them:
v.22 Untill the Ancient of Days(True Christ)came(Second Coming not "bail out rapture)and judgement was given to the saints of the Most High;and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
II Thessalonians 2:1-4
v.1 Now we beseech you,brethern by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,and by our gathering together unto Him.
v.2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,or be troubled,neither by spirit,nor by word,nor by letter as from us,as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means;for that day SHALL NOT come,except there come a falling away first,(FALLING AWAY FROM THE TRUTH)and that man of sin be revealed,the son of perdition. (anti-christ)
v.4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,or that is worshipped;so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,shewing himself that he is God.
Daniel 7:21-22 describes the end of the Tribulation and the Second Coming (The Glorious Appearing) of Christ. The Rapture comes before the Tribulation.
We explained before about 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
The KJV says "falling away" translated from the Greek word apostasia.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).
This supports the notion that the word truly means "departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the word "discessio", meaning "departure."
Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"? Why does the King James say "falling away"?
Literally translated the word means the "departure" which of course could mean a departure from the faith, and thus, a rebellion (falling away, apostasy). But I think it means the departure Paul just talked about (2 Thessalonians 2:1)--the departure of the Church to be with the Lord.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal...and who shall be able to stand?
Can anyone see a bodily rapture of the saints in any of this portion of scripture? I don’t, unless by rapture you mean their body is killed and their soul goes to heaven.
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
THE FIFTH SEAL
The seal judgments come during The Tribulation. That means that the Rapture has already happened. The Rapture comes before The Tribulation begins. The fifth seal is about Tribulation saints who come to faith after the Rapture.
Just so I'm clear:
1. The Church Age happens, then
2. The Rapture happens, then
3. The seven year Tribulation happens, then
4. The 1000 year Millennial Kingdom happens, and then
5. The New Heavens, New Earth, and New Jerusalem happens
In fact, I'll go back to the beginning to give you a better perspective:
1. Dispensation of Innocence; Creation to the fall of Adam.
2. Dispensation of Conscience: From the fall of Adam to the Flood.
3. Dispensation of Human Government: From the Flood to Abraham.
4. Dispensation of Promise: Abraham to the Giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai by Moses.
5. Dispensation of Law: Moses to the time of Christ.
6. Dispensation of Grace, (the Church Age): Pentecost to the Rapture.
7. Dispensation of Tribulation: Rapture to the Millennium.
8. Dispensation of Millennium: One thousand year reign of Christ on Earth which ends with the Great White Throne judgment and the New Heavens and Earth followed by Eternity.
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Betty Louise
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Wrong Again. The Bible makes it clear that Israel will once again during the tribulation burn sacrifices in the Temple to God. The Church is not called to do that.
The Tribulation IS NOT ABOUT THE CHURCH. It is all about Israel, the anti-Christ and those who take the mark of the beast. Your false teaching is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Ezekiel 13:20
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There's only one Shepherd and there's only one fold. God does not have two plans of Salvation.
The woman is not the Jews,it is the True Church,the Bride of Christ.
Christ only returns once after the tribulation,not twice as some false teachers/preachers say.
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Betty Louise
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The woman is the Jewish people who accept Jesus during the tribulation. It is not the Church.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Ezekiel 13:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Betty,
You're absolutely right. But, they think there is no Tribulation, or that it will be a time of peace and prosperity. They're living in denial.
Oh there will be tribulation alright. How would anti-christ come in peacefully and prosperously if the world has not gone through a terrible time of tribulation?
God will protect His own during that time. The woman flees into the wilderness. (Rev.12)He doesn't give her a pair of wings to fly away with!
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Ezekiel 13:20
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Daniel 7:21-22
v.21 I beheld,and the same horn(anti-christ)made war with the saints,and prevailed against them:
v.22 Untill the Ancient of Days(True Christ)came(Second Coming not "bail out rapture)and judgement was given to the saints of the Most High;and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
II Thessalonians 2:1-4
v.1 Now we beseech you,brethern by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,and by our gathering together unto Him.
v.2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,or be troubled,neither by spirit,nor by word,nor by letter as from us,as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means;for that day SHALL NOT come,except there come a falling away first,(FALLING AWAY FROM THE TRUTH)and that man of sin be revealed,the son of perdition. (anti-christ)
v.4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,or that is worshipped;so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,shewing himself that he is God.
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Bloodbought
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Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Can anyone see a bodily rapture of the saints in any of this portion of scripture? I don’t, unless by rapture you mean their body is killed and their soul goes to heaven.
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
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Carol Swenson
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Betty,
You're absolutely right. But, they think there is no Tribulation, or that it will be a time of peace and prosperity. They're living in denial.
The funny part is that if they really are "super Christians" then they won't go through the Tribulation - they'll be Raptured!
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Betty Louise
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Carol,
Some people take pride in their desire to want to go through the tribulation. It is like they are super Christians because they are prepared to go through The Tribulation. Although the Bible said for Christians to be prepared to suffer tribulations and trials, no where does it say for Christians to prepare for The Tribulation. We as individuals do suffer and often periods of great distress, but the Tribulation is a specific time and it is a time for God to judge the world not the Church.
The false Gospel is teaching people that they have until the Second Coming to get saved. While there will be people who get saved during the tribulation, people who know the truth and miss the rapture, will mostly likely be taken in by the great delusion that God said He will bring on earth.
Today is the day of salvation. Don't wait until the rapture or God may hardened your heart.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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God's Purpose For The Tribulation
I have found that when a person is knowledgeable of what the Bible says is God' s purpose for the tribulation, or any issue for that matter, then a very high percentage of those people will come to believe that the church will be taken in the rapture before the tribulation. What is God' s purpose for the tribulation?
Start Of The Tribulation
First, we need to know that the tribulation in Bible prophecy is the period of time that begins with the signing of a covenant between Israel and the antichrist and ends seven years later at the second coming of Jesus Christ. The most extensive biblical comments on the tribulation are found in the writings of John, specifically in Revelation 6- 19. In these chapters, John provides a detailed exposition of the tribulation days. Daniel' s "70 weeks," prophesied in Daniel 9:24-27 are the framework within which the tribulation or the 70th week occurs. The seven-year period of Daniel's 70th week provides the time span with which a whole host of descriptives are associated. Some of those descriptive terms include: tribulation, great tribulation, day of the Lord, day of wrath, day of distress, day of trouble, time of Jacob's trouble, day of darkness and gloom, and wrath of the Lamb.
Judgment Nature Of The Tribulation
Second, God's basic purpose for the tribulation is that it be a time of judgment, while at the same time, He will hold forth the gospel of the kingdom. This will precede Christ's glorious 1,000 year reign from David's throne in Jerusalem. Judgment, or God' s wrath, is needed to put down the rebellion of mankind in preparation for Christ's reign of peace upon earth during the millennium.
The Goals Of The Tribulation
Third, while a number of goals for the tribulation could be given, there are a least three specific major purposes. Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum lists them as follows:
Gentile Judgment
Before the Lord can personally rule on earth in the Person of Jesus Christ He must first judge the world in order to prepare it for His righteous rule. Dr. Fruchtenbaum says that the first purpose for the tribulation is:
• To make an end of wickedness and wicked ones (Isaiah 13:9; 24:19-20)- The first purpose for the tribulation is seen to be a punishment in history upon the whole world for its sins against God, in a way similar to that of the global flood in Noah's days (Matthew 24:37-39).
Deuteronomy 30:7 tells us that God will "inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you." This will take place during the tribulation and will be retribution to the nations for how they have treated the Jews during the last 2,000 years. This purpose does not encompass the church.
World-Wide Evangelism
The seven-year tribulation will be a time of phenomenal evangelistic outreach. It will be a time unlike any previous period of history. Dr. Fruchtenbaum explains:
• To bring about a world-wide revival- This purpose is given and fulfilled in Revelation 7:1-17. During the first half of the tribulation, God will evangelize the world by the means of the 144,000 Jews and thus fulfill the prophecy found in Matthew 24:14.
In addition to the 144,000 Jewish evangelists, there will be normal evangelism taking place like we see today. Further, the Two Witnesses will provide an evangelistic witness to Israel. Finally, at the mid-point of the tribulation Revelation 14 tells us that God Himself will use angels to preach the gospel and warn "earth dwellers" not to take the mark of the beast- 666.
The three angelic announcements are as follows: First, an angel will preach "an eternal gospel . . . to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people" (Revelation 14:6). Second, the next angel will make the following pronouncement: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality" (Revelation 14:8). Finally, the last angelic proclamation will specifically warn every person on earth not to take the mark of the beast, since doing so will result in their eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire. "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand . . . he will be tormented with fire and brimstone . . . forever and ever" (Revelation 14:9- 11). This tribulation purpose also does not include the church.
Conversion of Israel
One of the most glorious and important purposes of the tribulation will be the conversion of Israel. Dr. Fruchtenbaum tell us:
• To break the power of the holy people- Israel- Finally, the tribulation will be a time in which God, through evil agencies, prepares Israel for her conversion and acknowledgment that Jesus is their Messiah, resulting in the second coming of Christ.
The Bible teaches us that God will use the tribulation to bring His elect people to faith in Jesus as their Messiah. When we put together the biblical information it appears that God will accomplish this goal in the following way: First, the Lord will return Israel to the land before the tribulation, the time of God' s wrath. "I shall bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out" (Ezekiel 20:34). The regathering before the tribulation is what our Lord has been doing since 1948 with the modern state of Israel.
Once the tribulation begins He "shall make you pass under the rod, and I shall bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I shall purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I shall bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the Lord" (Ezekiel 20:37- 38). This tells us that the unbelieving Jews ("the rebels" ) will be removed during the tribulation.
In an interesting passage that speaks of "My Associate," which is an obvious prophetic reference to Jesus The Messiah (Zechariah 13:7- 9), Zechariah gives us a numeric ratio that will be purged. "And it will come about in all the land," Declares the Lord, "That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it. And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The Lord is my God.' " (Zechariah 13:8- 9) Therefore, we learn that two-thirds of Israel will be purged through the fire of the tribulation, leaving the one-third elect who will be converted to Jesus as their Messiah. Thus, "all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins'" (Romans 11:26- 27). What a glorious day that will be! Israel will be converted to Jesus as their Messiah resulting in the second coming, which will in turn give rise the millennial reign of Christ. The church is no where to be found in these tribulational activities.
Conclusion
While many people think the tribulation will involve the church, the Bible does not provide support for such a notion. Instead, Scripture informs us of at least a three-fold purpose for the coming tribulation, none of which involves the church. The New Testament teaches that the church will be taken at the rapture to be with the Lord before the tribulation begins, because God has not destined His bride for His wrath (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9; Revelation 3:10). Other groups of redeemed individuals will go through the tribulation, but not Christ' s bride, the church. Maranatha!
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/PurposeForTheTribulation.html
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Carol Swenson
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The Olivet Discourse
The Olivet Discourse is the name given to the orderly and extended teaching given by Christ on the Mount of Olives. This discourse is recorded in Matthew 24:1 - 25:46. Parallel passages are found in Mark 13:1-37 and Luke 21:5-36.
Though the discourse itself begins at Matthew 24:3, Mark 13:3 and Luke 21:7, Christ's discourse is in response to questions from the disciples, questions based on what Jesus told them in Matthew 24:1-2, Mark 13:1-2, and Luke 21:5-6. The record in Matthew is most extensive, so reference here will be to Matthew's Gospel.
Before discussing the teaching found in this discourse, it is important to recognize that the interpretation of this discourse must be with reference to Israel and not the Church. Christ was speaking of God's program concerning Israel, and the content of this discourse in large part has direct reference to Daniel 9:24-27, as well as Revelation 6:1 - 19:21, passages that refer to the future 7-year period called the tribulation. The completion of God's program for the Church is the rapture, which is not found in the Olivet Discourse, but instead is found in John 14:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
In Matthew 23, Jesus spoke to the Pharisees concerning judgment. This can be seen in the "woe" statements in that chapter. In chapter 24:1-2, Jesus is leaving the temple when the disciples ask Him about the temple buildings, seemingly so that Jesus could explain how the judgment of which He spoke related to the temple. Herod, who built the temple buildings that existed during the time of Christ's earthly ministry, built them to last. They were of limestone and would have lasted for thousands of years had the temple not been destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70. In Matthew 24:2, Jesus tells the disciples that not one stone of the temple would be left on top of another. This sets the stage for the Olivet Discourse.
Beginning in Matthew 24:3, we find Jesus and the disciples on the Mount of Olives. The disciples ask Jesus, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" When the disciples asked, "When will these things be?" it was with reference to the destruction of the temple. The destruction of the temple occurred in A.D. 70 when Rome, led by Titus, destroyed Jerusalem. The temple was burned. The things made of gold that resided in the temple melted as the temple burned and the gold ran down into the cracks between the stones. Every stone was toppled from its place as people searched for the gold. The destruction of Jerusalem is referenced in Matthew 24:15-22 and more clearly spoken of in Luke 21:20-24 as Christ taught that those in Jerusalem should flee for their lives. This first destruction of Jerusalem is a foreshadowing of what is in store for Jerusalem. It also should be noted that there will be a double fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem. While Titus did destroy the city in A.D. 70, he did not fulfill all that Christ spoke in the Olivet Discourse concerning the destruction of Jerusalem. It will be fulfilled in its entirety when the Beast or Antichrist first takes authority and sets up an image of himself in the future temple that will be in Jerusalem (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4; Revelation 13:1-18). He will rule from Jerusalem for 42 months (3 1/2 years), which is the last half of the tribulation.
The content of what Jesus taught in Matthew 24-25 primarily refers to the future tribulation period and the second coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation. In Matthew 24:4-26, Christ is answering the disciples' question, "what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" As stated earlier, the tribulation is a future 7-year period. During this time, God will complete His punishment of Israel and will judge the world (Daniel 9:24-27; Revelation 6–19).
The teaching in Matthew 24:4-8 refers to the first half of the tribulation. Daniel 9:27 indicates that the tribulation will be divided into two equal parts. The birth pangs refer to the sufferings that Israel will experience during the first 3 1/2 years. The signs with reference to Christ's return and the end of the age are 1) false messiahs (v.5); 2) reports of wars (v.6-7); and 3) natural catastrophes (v.7). A parallel passage to this is Revelation 6 where the Apostle John writes of the seal judgments. Revelation 6:2 speaks of a rider on a white horse, which could refer to a false messiah. Revelation 6:4 says that peace is taken from the earth (war). Revelation 6:6-8 speaks of famine and death. These are only the "beginning of birth pangs" (Matthew 24:8). With reference to Revelation, the last half of the tribulation does not seem to begin until Revelation 13 when the Beast sets up his rule for 42 months, the last half of the tribulation (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15). There is a reference to 1,260 days (42 months or 3 1/2 years) in 11:3 and 12:6, which could also refer to the beginning of the last half of the tribulation. Therefore, at least Revelation 6-10 can be considered the first half of the tribulation.
The teaching in Matthew 24:9-14 refers to the signs of the second half of the tribulation. The persecution and death (v.9) will be the result of the Beast's rise to power and the persecution of those that refuse to follow him (Revelation 13:1-18). Though there will be many false prophets (Matthew 24:11), Revelation 13:11-18 presents the ultimate false prophet, the one who will demand the worship of the Beast. The salvation promised in Matthew 24:13 is salvation or deliverance from the persecution of the Beast. The one who endures until Christ returns will be saved from the Beast. The preaching of the gospel of the kingdom refers to the good news that Christ will soon return in judgment, and then setup His earthly kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6). This will help people to realize their sinful state and receive the Savior during the tribulation.
The teaching in Matthew 24:15-26 gives further details concerning the tribulation. Matthew 24:15 refers specifically to the Beast who will establish his power during the last half of the tribulation (Daniel 9:27; Revelation 13:1-18) and to the persecution of those who refuse to worship him and take his number (666), the mark of the beast. In verses 16-20, Christ instructs that those in Jerusalem should flee for their lives when they see that Beast has taken his seat of authority. Verses 21-22 tell us that there never has been nor shall be again a time like this on the earth and that if those days were not cut short (ended) by the return of Christ, every person would be destroyed. Verses 23-26 tell us of the prominence of false christs and false prophets in those days and how those on earth at that time can identify and avoid them.
The teaching in Matthew 24:27-31 addresses the second coming of Christ. His second coming will be 1) openly done, perhaps even seen by all (v.27); 2) announced by the sun, moon and stars (v.29); and 3) followed by the gathering of the elect from all over the earth (v.31).
What follows Matthew 24:31 are illustrations, some in the form of parables. Matthew 24:32 is the parable of the fig tree. Jesus says that by the signs already given you can recognize His coming is soon, just like you can recognize the nearing of summer. Matthew 24:36-41 is the illustration of the days of Noah. It should be noted that verses 40-41 do not refer to the rapture but rather to the people who are taken in judgment during the tribulation. Matthew 24:42-44 is the parable of the faithful householder, and 24:45-51 is the parable of the wise servant. All of these are given that those who are living during that time can recognize the time in which they are alive and be prepared for Christ's return.
Matthew 25:1-13 is the parable of the ten virgins, and 25:14-30 is the parable of the talents. These are given specifically as a warning to Israel that they may be prepared for Christ's return. The last section is that of Matthew 25:31-46. This concerns the judgment of the Gentiles after Christ's return. The Lord will separate the Gentiles as a shepherd separates sheep and goats. They will be separated based on how they treated Israel, "these brothers of mine." Those individuals who did not treat Israel well during the tribulation (which marks them as unbelievers) will go to eternal punishment. Those who did treat Israel well (indicating belief in Christ) will inherit eternal life and be allowed to go into the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).
http://www.gotquestions.org/Olivet-discourse.html
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Carol Swenson
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God’s Purpose for Israel During the Tribulation
Dr. Thomas Ice
Purging Out the Rebels
One of the major divine purposes for the Tribulation in relation to Israel is the conversion of the Jewish remnant to faith in Jesus as their Messiah. This will take place throughout the Tribulation, but by the end of the seven-year period the entire number of the elect remnant will become converted to Jesus. That number is likely a third of the Jewish people as noted in Zechariah 13:9: “And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’” As part of the process of bringing the Jewish remnant to faith, Zechariah 13:8 speaks of a purging out of the non-elect Jewish element from the nation: “‘And it will come about in all the land,’ declares the LORD, ‘that two parts in it will be cut off and perish; but the third will be left in it.’” The Old Testament prophets speak frequently of the purging out of the Jewish non-elect during the Tribulation.
Ezekiel 20:33-38 is a major passage that speaks of a Jewish regathering to their ancient land, which must take place before the Tribulation, in preparation for the purging of the non-elect Israelites called in this passage “the rebels” (Ezekiel 20:38). “‘As I live,’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out, I shall be king over you. And I shall bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out; and I shall bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I shall enter into judgment with you face to face. As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you,’ declares the Lord GOD. ‘And I shall make you pass under the rod, and I shall bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I shall purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me’” (Ezekiel 20:33-38a). The phrase “to pass under the rod” is one of evaluation and separation. The purging process will result in removal of the rebel, leaving the believing remnant, who will then be brought “into the bond of the covenant” (Ezekiel 20:37).
In a similar vein, two chapters later, Ezekiel receives another revelation about a future regathering of national Israel (Ezekiel 22:17-22). This time, the Lord is “going to gather you into the midst of Jerusalem” (Ezekiel 22:19). Like the metallurgist, the Lord will use the fire of the Tribulation to purge out the unfaithful. The Lord is going to “gather you [Israel] and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you will be melted in the midst of it” (Ezekiel 22:21). In this passage, “My wrath” depicts the time of the Tribulation. It also follows here that the nation must be regathered before that event can take place. The outcome of this event will be that the nation “will know that I, the LORD, have poured out My wrath on you” (Ezekiel 22:22). Israel is back in the land, awaiting the purging fire of the Tribulation that will remove the non-elect and reveal the remnant.
Again we read of “the time of Jacob’s trouble” in Jeremiah 30:7. It is said to compare to the sorrows that one faces in childbirth (Jeremiah 30:6), “but he will be saved from it” (Jeremiah 30:7, 11). The remnant will be saved through this time of trouble, which is clearly the Tribulation. The Lord will chasten the nation of Israel during this time: “Only I will not destroy you completely. But I will chasten you justly, and will by no means leave you unpunished” (Jeremiah 30:11). This chastisement will result in Israel’s conversion: “And you shall be My people, And I will be your God” (Jeremiah 30:22). Jeremiah says that these things will occur “in the latter days” (Jeremiah 30:24)
The prophecies of Daniel 12 are set within the time frame of the Tribulation (Daniel 12:1). “Many will be purged, purified and refined; but the wicked will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand” (Daniel 12:10). We see in this passage the continued theme of purging out the non-elect Jews during the Tribulation but we also see the rescue or salvation of the elect. These events are said to occur during “the end time” (Daniel 12:9).
A number of other passages speak of the need to refine the Jewish people, often in association with the city of Jerusalem (Isaiah 1:22, 25; 48:10; Jeremiah 6:27-30; 9:7; Malachi 3:2-3). Arnold Fruchtenbaum tells us, “As a purified, believing nation, they will then turn to the Lord. Here again he speaks of worldwide regathering in unbelief in preparation for a specific future judgment, but the purpose of the judgment is to bring them to national repentance.”
The Condition for the Second Coming
Many Christians are surprised to learn that the Second Coming will be a rescue event. Jesus will return to planet Earth in order to rescue the believing Jewish remnant that is on the verge of being destroyed during the Campaign of Armageddon. I think this is what Paul speaks of in Romans 10 when he tell us, “‘Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.’ How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?” (Romans 10:13-14). In other words, the Jewish people are going to have to be believers in Jesus as their Messiah in order to be rescued by Him at the Second Advent. This is exactly what will happen.
The Old and New Testaments teach that before Christ can return to earth for His millennial kingdom, the nation of Israel must be converted to Jesus as Messiah and call on Him to save them. This is taught throughout the Bible (Leviticus 26:40-42; Jeremiah 3:11-18; Hosea 5:15; Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 23:37-39; Acts 3:19-21).
Hosea 5:15 tells us, “I will go away and return to My place until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face; in their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.” “Until” tells us that the nation will one day turn to the Lord, as does the following context. Jesus Himself spoke an important “until” to the nation in Matthew 23:39 when He said, “For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” The Apostle Peter tells the Jewish nation that it will not see Jesus again until its people: “Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time” (Acts 3:19- 21). “This, then, is the twofold basis of the Second Coming; Israel must confess her national sin,” explains Fruchtenbaum, “and then plead for Messiah to return, to mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son.”
The National Conversion of Israel
The Bible teaches that one day the nation of Israel will return to the Lord their God. This will occur by the end of the Tribulation and is the purpose for the time of Jacob’s trouble. Many passages teach the future conversion of the Jews to Jesus as their Messiah (Psalm 79:1-13; 80:1-19; Isaiah 53:1-9; 59:20-21; 61:8-9; 64:1-12; Jeremiah 30:3-24; 31:31-40; 32:37-40; 50:4-5; Ezekiel 11:19-20; 16:60-63; 34:25-26; 36:24-32; 37:21-28; Hosea 6:1-3; Joel 2:28-32; Zechariah 9:11; 12:10-13:9; Romans 11:25-27). Hosea 6:1-2 is one of the most interesting passages on the future conversion of the nation of Israel: “Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us. He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day that we may live before Him.”
Conclusion
The Bible clearly teaches that the time of Jacob’s trouble (the Tribulation), in which the non-elect Jews are to be purged out and removed while the remaining believing remnant will the saved (both spiritually and physically), did not occur through events relating to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Sorry ... but try as you might, through your naturalist interpretations, you cannot ram, cram and jam these supernatural events into the first century. These texts of Scripture just do not fit! Instead, they require a future fulfillment for a literal nation of Israel. Fruchtenbaum says, “Only by faith in the Son of Man can Israel be regenerated. Only by calling upon the Name of the Lord can Israel be saved spiritually. Only by the return of the Son of Man can Israel be saved physically.” Yet, that is exactly what will occur in the future in the Tribulation. The Lord is setting the stage for these future events since He has brought His chosen people back to their land in anticipation of both the purging of the non-elect and the redemption of the elect. Maranatha!
http://www.midnightcall.com/articles/prophetic/israel_tribulation.html
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Carol Swenson
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You offer nothing but opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
How do you know that one great tribulation is different from another great tribulation? Scripture makes no distinction between them other than they will become more severe as the end draws near. There has been great tribulation from 2000 years ago until now. All we have to do is look around us and listen to the news and we find great tribulation all around the globe. Things will not get better, they will grow steadily worse and worse until there is little or no faith on the earth as it was in the days of Noah. Those of us who trust Christ have no need to panic, because He is our shield in the day of trouble.
How do I know that one great tribulation is different from another great tribulation?
Zechariah
Ezekiel
Jeremiah
Daniel
Malachi
Hosea
Jesus Christ
Revelation
quote:
You asked,
"Who is going to populate the Millennial Kingdom?"
A thousand years may represent the totality of the church age. Who knows. Christ reigns today and one day He will purge the earth by fire and set up an everlasting kingdom.
When the many prophecies relating to the millennial Kingdom are taken in their natural sense, they describe a dispensation that is different from that of the law and also from the present age of grace. The physical presence of Christ will bring about major changes as His rule and authority extend over the entire earth as King of kings and Lord of lords and as He assumes the throne of David as the Son of David and reigns over Israel.
The Millennium will be the occasion of the final restoration of Israel. At the beginning of the millennial kingdom Israel will experience her final and permanent regathering (Ezek 39:25-29; Amos 9:15). Christ’s reign over Israel will be glorious and will be a complete and literal fulfillment of all that God promised David (Jer. 23:5-8).
Amillennialism - which denies such a future millennial Kingdom - is beset with many problems as it tries to explain away hundreds of verses that describe this kingdom on earth. Accordingly, the premillennial point of view – that as a result of Christ’s coming, the millennial kingdom unfolds for one thousand years – is preferable by far, giving to the Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testaments the attention and normal interpretation they require.
http://www.centralfloridafellowship.com/scripturallyyours/millenialreign.htm
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
While the Spirit intended what He said to be sent to the Pastor of the church inThyatira, it was intended as a lesson to all churches in a similar spiritual condition down to this present time in which we live.
Do you mean to say that when the Spirit said He would cast them into great tribulation if they didn’t repent that it didn’t happen?
I agree it was intended as a lesson to all churches in a similar spiritual condition. And those who say they are Christian, but are not, will not be Raptured.
I said they suffered for their sins –tribulation, disease, death – but that it was not The Great Tribulation. The Tribulation is a special 7 year period of time that comes just before the Millennial Kingdom, and the last 3½ years are called The Great Tribulation.
Those who repent and receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior before the Rapture will not face The Tribulation.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Poor,folks deceived by ear tickling pre-trib preachers/teachers of the modern day "bail out" false doctrine of pre-trib.
Totally unprepared for what's coming,so sad.
According to what you've said before, the only things coming are peace and prosperity.
quote:
THE SECRET RAPTURE - IS IT SCRIPTURAL? (Page 4)
Ezekiel 13:20
posted February 18, 2011 19:19
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Anti-christ comes in Peacefully and Prosperously saying he is God.
The death he causes is spititual death.
The death spoken of in Revelation for the most part is spiritual death. Satan is spiritual death,he ain't to concerned with killing someone physically.
Anti-christ pretends to be Christ. A better name for anti-christ would be Facsimile-christ.
Those who have watched the death and destrution movies,will be in for quite a surprise when anti-christ does appear,they will think he is Jesus here to rapture them away.
What would a man give in exchange for his soul?
You are the one who is "Totally unprepared for what's coming,so sad."
I pray for your sake that you will be Raptured before the slaughter and judgments begin.
Today we are living in a day of GRACE. God is being kind to men even though they do not deserve it. God is offering His gift of salvation to all men (John 3:16; Romans 6:23; 1 John 5:11-12). God is not judging the world; rather He is giving people time to be saved.
When men reject God’s grace then there is nothing left but God’s judgment. If men reject God’s love then they must face God’s wrath and anger.
In the days of Noah, God was gracious to men for 120 years (Genesis 6:3 and 1 Peter 3:20). During these years Noah was building the ark and men, women, and children were given an opportunity to be saved. People refused to believe God. Finally the 120 years came to an end and the door of the ark closed. The day of grace was over, and the day of judgment began.
Two by two they came into the boat, representing every living thing that breathes. 16 A male and female of each kind entered, just as God had commanded Noah. Then the Lord closed the door behind them. (Genesis 7:15-16 NLT)
And the flood began.
For about 2000 years God has been gracious to this world, inviting men to be saved. But soon God’s day of grace will be over and God will pour out His anger upon this world.
For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. (Matthew 24:21 NLT)
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Marlene
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Isaiah 43:15
Fear not for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze. For I am the LORD, your God...you are precious and honored in my sight....Do not be afraid for I am with you.
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Ezekiel 13:20
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Poor,folks deceived by ear tickling pre-trib preachers/teachers of the modern day "bail out" false doctrine of pre-trib.
Totally unprepared for what's coming,so sad.
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Betty Louise
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There have always been eathquakes and they are on the rise. But we are only seeing the birth pains. After the rapture there will be an earthquaked that will effect every place on earth at the same time.
The tribulation will be far different then any time in history.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Bloodbought
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God is already shaking the earth before our eyes.
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Betty Louise
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the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls of wrath have not happened nor will they happen until after the rapture.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Betty Louise
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The Bible makes it clear that there is one Tribulation where the world will be judged by God. There have always been trouble but not since the flood has God judged the whole world as a whole. He will during the tribulation.
The Seven Trumpets
1 Land there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. 8:7
2 Sea something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. 8:8
3 Rivers &
Springs a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water-- the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter. 8:10
4 Sun a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night. 8:12
5 Abyss
(First Woe)
I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 9:1
6 Great river Euphrates
(Second Woe)
It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." The four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.
9:13
# Interlude The little scroll - tasted sweet, but turned bitter.
# Measuring the temple
# The two witnesses
(10:8-11)
(11:1-2)
(11:3-14)
7
Air
(Third Woe)
there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Bloodbought
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Hi Carol,
While the Spirit intended what He said to be sent to the Pastor of the church inThyatira, it was intended as a lesson to all churches in a similar spiritual condition down to this present time in which we live.
Do you mean to say that when the Spirit said He would cast them into great tribulation if they didn’t repent that it didn’t happen? How do you know that one great tribulation is different from another great tribulation? Scripture makes no distinction between them other than they will become more severe as the end draws near. There has been great tribulation from 2000 years ago until now. All we have to do is look around us and listen to the news and we find great tribulation all around the globe. Things will not get better, they will grow steadily worse and worse until there is little or no faith on the earth as it was in the days of Noah. Those of us who trust Christ have no need to panic, because He is our shield in the day of trouble.
You asked,
"Who is going to populate the Millennial Kingdom?"
A thousand years may represent the totality of the church age. Who knows. Christ reigns today and one day He will purge the earth by fire and set up an everlasting kingdom.
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Carol Swenson
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Bloodbought & Ezekiel 13:20,
Who is going to populate the Millennial Kingdom?
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
believe what you want but the Bible supports a pre-trib rapture.
betty
I respect your belief, but there were those in the church in Thyatira who were about to be cast into great tribulation and there was no pre-trib rapture.
Unless you choose not to believe this truth.
That was 2000 years ago. Did they go through The Great Tribulation? Of course not. It hasn't even happened yet. The tribulation they suffered was not THE GREAT TRIBULATION that will come on the whole world. It was punishment for their sins.
Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
So if we repent then we don't have to go through The Great Tribulation?
Revelation 2:25
Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.
Did the Lord come during their lifetime? If He was talking about The Great Tribulation before, then this would refer to the Second Coming (for post-trib). Did He come?
If these seven churches represent church ages, then Thyatira is said to represent the Dark Ages.
If these seven churches represent church types, then I'll agree with you. There are people, and groups of people, who call themselves Christian but they aren't. They will be left behind when the Rapture comes; they will go through The Tribulation.
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Betty Louise
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yes but while we can learn from those Churches they do not exist today. they are no proof of the rapture not being a trib rapture.
I sure want to be around the throne when you complain to God for having a pre trib rapture because of course you think you know more then God does. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Ezekiel 13:20
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
I do not believe that verse is about the Church Age and I am not alone.
betty
Thyatira as well as the other 6 existed after Pentecost. Only 2 of those 7 Churches did Christ not find fault with.
Pre-tribbers don't read and understand Revelation,because they don't think they are going to be here anyway. What a rude awakening will be in store for the last generation,whenever that comes.
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Betty Louise
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I do not believe that verse is about the Church Age and I am not alone.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
believe what you want but the Bible supports a pre-trib rapture.
betty
I respect your belief, but there were those in the church in Thyatira who were about to be cast into great tribulation and there was no pre-trib rapture.
Unless you choose not to believe this truth.
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Betty Louise
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Eduardo,
I pray ever day for the rapture.
May God bless you and all of us, as we serve until the day our Redeemer comes for us.
Betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Eduardo Grequi
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Amen Betty! Look to the east for redemption draweth nigh!
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crixus
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
believe what you want but the Bible supports a pre-trib rapture.
betty
I agree, but sadly not everyone understands the scriptures. Alot of times that's due to ego and wanting to have things their own way. Which is never a good path to wander down. ![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif)
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Keepin' the faith!
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
True believers are not raptured out of great tribulation. They live in the midst of those who go through great tribulation, but they are protected according to the mercy of the Lord.
Millions of people will come to faith during the Tribulation. These are the Tribulation Saints - they are not the Church. Many of them will be martyred during the Tribulation (Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 7:9-17).
Tribulation Saint Wannabes
The most disturbing error I find with the pro-tribulation crowd is the belief that Christians are promised special protection from the tribulation horrors. Some people try to use pre-trib Scriptures like Revelation 3:10 to claim God will protect Christians, but most use their own logic to conclude God's grace will allow us to stay perfectly safe those seven long years.
The Bible repeatedly states that tribulation saints will face a strong likelihood of being martyred under the Antichrist's demonic rule. Many so-called scholars are able to read the following Scriptures and conclude the passages only suggest that a mild level of persecution will occur during the tribulation
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Rev 13:7).
"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Rev 13:10).
"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Rev 13:15).
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev 14:12-13).
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev 20:4).
Jesus made His own prediction about how bad the global persecution of believers will be during the tribulation. He added an ominous warning that some people will betray one another.
"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another" (Mat 24:9-10).
"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be" (Mark 13:19).
During the tribulation period, the Jews will suffer horrendous persecution. The prophet Zechariah predicted that two-thirds of the Jewish people will perish. If 66% of Israel is wiped out, where does that leave the poor Gentile Christians?
"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zec 13:8-9).
I've read tens of thousands of messages over the years and I've searched through numerous post-trib and pre-wrath web sites, and I can only recall finding maybe one or two people who realized they would likely be martyred for their faith. The majority of these folks have the bizarre, joyous view of the coming tribulation that simply makes a mockery of the Bible's dire warnings. They also seem to think they're going to be able to walk up to the Antichrist, poke him in the nose, and say, "OK buster, I've got you all figured out."
Clearly, we have an overabundance of the type of bravery Peter and the other disciples briefly displayed in the Garden of Gethsemane before they all betrayed Jesus. The Roman soldiers displayed no desire to apprehend Jesus’ disciples, but when the soldiers slapped the cuffs on Jesus, the disciples ran like the devil was chasing them.
Without a doubt, people who generally make the boldest statements are often also the first to run. Because they've never fully counted the cost, they're able to make valiant declarations to which they could never live up. I would be a liar if I said I could boldly and easily make a life-and-death decision.
Unlike these people who feign bravery, I have considered what it would take to lay down my life for the cause of Christ. I think it would take many hours of prayer to reach the point at which I would be able to face starvation or an executioner's ax. Jesus prayed many times for an alternative to the cross, but when He realized there was no other way, He chose to follow God's perfect will.
One of the most glorious benefits the pre-trib rapture offers is the chance to be delivered from the seven-year tribulation. The only bad thing about it is the fact that millions of people continue to pass up the amazing opportunity to escape God's judgment of the earth. It's a far better choice to be able to avoid the King of Terror and instead stand in the presence of the King of Kings.
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36).
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-tribulation-saint.html
The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God's wrath. Romans 5:9 says that "we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus]." 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting "for His Son from heaven... who will deliver us from the wrath to come." The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 — "God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Rev. 7:1-8).
But God's promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would "escape" the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:36). Paul says Jesus is coming to "deliver" us from God's wrath (1 Thess. 1:10).
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