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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Exposing False Teaching   » The Church is Not (Spiritual) Israel (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: The Church is Not (Spiritual) Israel
John Hale
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Galatians 3:24-28 (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV)
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

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John Hale
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You keep reverting back to physical Israel. And I am in complete agreement with you on this because it is Biblical. Physical Israel is not replaced by Spirit Israel.

Never said it was.

Physical Israel must become believers (Spirit Israel) in order to be saved. Just like anyone (physical Gentile) does.

Physical Israel has many covenants especially through Abraham land grants etc which Spirit Israel is not entitled to unless an Spirit Israel individual happens also to be born Jewish...

The physical was a vehicle to bring the world to the spiritual. The Old Covenant (the letter) kills but the spirit (New Covenant) gives life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV)
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

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Carol Swenson
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Galatians 4 (NLT)

24 These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them. 25 And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery to the law. 26 But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother.

28 And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac. 29 But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law, just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit.


Yes, followers of our Lord Jesus Christ are children of the promise. We are free from the Law of Moses.

That has nothing to do with the future of Israel.

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thywillbedone
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Jesus is the Christ.

I see you all wasting a lot of words in an attempt to prove the premise:

Isaac (is Not = to) Jacob.

Galatians 4:28 makes it very clear that "we brethren"(the church) are = to Isaac, and not Israel(Jacob).

This doctrine about promises to Israel, being fulfilled in the flesh, is the result of "carnal mindedness".

Isaac, never broke any of the Ten Commandments given to Moses.

Praise the Lord!

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by The Word:
Actually, Israel is the symbolic name for all God's created people as well as Jacob. The Remnant of Israel is the Word of God and all the flesh of the prophets, Jesus and saints that was used for writing and speaking the inspired words of God. This Word is the light energy that God created for his power.

The symbolic names of Joseph and Judah are also the Word but Joseph is symbolic for the sinless saints and Jesus who preached the gospel, which is the voice of God. Judah is symbolic for the prophets who died as sinners.

Jerusalem is symbolic for the new earth we'll be living on with our new bodies. The New Jerusalem are the new bodies that the Word will use in paradise and reign over the whole earth. They will be God on earth because they speak for him.

The flesh was never important to God during this age so the Jews don't have any special treatment from God. We all die in the flesh because they were made of atoms and the atoms will not be able to withstand the heat when the earth's crust is melted at the end of the age. This will eliminate the flesh of man that has been the tribulation against the Word of God.



You need to use some scripture.
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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by The Word:
Actually, Israel is the symbolic name for all God's created people as well as Jacob.

On this we mostly agree. I would mention also that in addition to specifying Ya'acov (Jacob) that Avram (Abram) was called a mighty prince / prince of God in Genesis 23:6... the basic definition of Yish Sarar Elohiym (Yisro'el) found in places like Hosea 12:3... but also Messiah himself is the ultimate Prince of God.

And Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6, Galatians 6:15-16, and the various allusions to the circumcision of heart versus that of the flesh (ultimately Philippians 3:3 / John 4:23-24) affirm there is a physical Israel and a spirit Israel distinct one from another.

One does not replace the other. One is distinct from the other. Physical Israel in the nation of God on earth. Spirit Israel is the kingdom of God of heaven. The promises regarding the physical land grants and inheritance and heritage belong to physical Israel.

Ezekiel 46:18 (NASB95)
18 “The prince shall not take from the people’s inheritance, thrusting them out of their possession; he shall give his sons inheritance from his own possession so that My people will not be scattered, anyone from his possession.” ’ ”

quote:
The Remnant of Israel is the Word of God and all the flesh of the prophets, Jesus and saints that was used for writing and speaking the inspired words of God. This Word is the light energy that God created for his power.
Here's where we part company. The Word IS God. John 1:1 who was WITH God in the beginning, and is in fact the Creator in the Godhead (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24). The one in the Godhead who became flesh (John 1:14) in addition to subsisting as God (Philippians 2:6-8).

The nation Israel (physical) ushered the Word of God into the world in written form and in the living form in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. And they remain to this day God's people (even if in unbelief) who by their unbelief do not obtain eternal life / salvation but can obtain it if they do not persist in unbelief (Romans 11:16-26). And they also serve as a prophetic calendar / time piece. You want to know what time it is in history look at physical Israel.

quote:
The symbolic names of Joseph and Judah are also the Word but Joseph is symbolic for the sinless saints and Jesus who preached the gospel, which is the voice of God. Judah is symbolic for the prophets who died as sinners.
I would disagree with this also.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NASB95)
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

My guess is you have read some of the prophetic judgments against the physical people of Judah and may not have taken into account that it was about the people of Judah (the nation) distinct from the northern kingdom (Israel)... both physical people rather than the spirit Israel and spirit Judah mentioned throughout and specifically above in Jeremiah 31.

quote:
Jerusalem is symbolic for the new earth we'll be living on with our new bodies. The New Jerusalem are the new bodies that the Word will use in paradise and reign over the whole earth. They will be God on earth because they speak for him.
Jerusalem is symbolic for the old world.

Galatians 4:19-31 (NASB95)
19 My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you—
20 but I could wish to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you.
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27 For it is written, “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more numerous are the children of the desolate Than of the one who has a husband.”
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

The New Jerusalem is of the new heaven-earth and is "our mother from above" Galatians 4:26.

Only those with perfected spirit-bodies will live there. For the old heaven and old earth will pass away and in their place the new heaven-earth.

Isaiah 65:15, Isaiah 66:22, 2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1.

quote:
The flesh was never important to God during this age
I disagree.

Romans 8:23 (NASB95)
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

If Jesus went to the trouble of taking upon himself a body and to sacrifice it to redeem our bodies and to be himself raised in a body which he will remain in forever... then I would say your statement disagrees with the Bible.

"The flesh counts for nothing" is in reference to the inabilities of mankind versus the abilities of God to save and to do the works of God.

quote:
so the Jews don't have any special treatment from God.
If by this you mean all who disbelieve Jesus are unsaved and will be condemned, this is true whether physical Jew or physical Gentile.

But the book of Romans tells how the people physical Israel are special to God for their having paid the price over the millennia for being his people for ushering the Word of God into the world.

Romans 11:28 (NASB95)
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Romans 9:1-5 (NASB95)
1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

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Betty Louise
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WRONG. God made promises to Israel and He will keep them. Jesus will reign a thousand years in Jerusalem on the throne of David. Israel is the apple of God's eye and God will during the tribulation once again turn His attention to Israel and He will bring her to repentance.
betty

http://heaven77.50webs.com/retisrael.html

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Carol Swenson
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I agree Betty. 12 tribes times 12,000 each tribe equals 144,000. This is what scripture says.
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Betty Louise
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There is no reason not to believe that there will be 144 thousand. The Bible says 144 thousand believe it.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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John Hale
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Here's a question. The 144,000. Are they literally 143,999+1 in number? Are they literally from the 12 tribes? What about the tribes that were omitted? Are there literally 11,999+1 in number from each tribe?

Getting back to the subject of this thread. I have heard preachers say that this is literal (I think they meant physical) Israel because the tribes are named. But... again I ask the above.

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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Of course it could be anyone but I believe it is the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 disciples.
Obviously they are important to God to be around the throne.
betty

Well, this is where I see it a bit differently believing myself that Spirit Israel includes the heroes of the faith from both NT and OT.

There have been some who mention the 24 courses of singers in the praise groups King David organized. I believe it is significant only in the prophetic aspect that there are 24 elders who worship God in heaven.

But we are agreed that there is too little information in scripture to determine who they actually are.

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John Hale
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I don't see why not.

I agree what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:9-15 is the ideal to aim for. And while I do not want to sound like one making excuses for not giving our service to God 110%... God has often stated in the Bible the ideal but dealt with man on a far lower basis.

Not to knock women. Quite the contrary, if men stepped up spiritually as we ought, then the ministry would be filled by them / us and then it would be a matter of 1 Timothy 2:9-15. But we are in a modern version of Judges 4-5 where men are too worldly or too fearful to step up.

It's a matter of taking all these things into consideration. I used to not do so. And I debated and argued to the nth degree in Greek and Hebrew and literally drove some dear sister pastors to rage for having stepped up. MY BAD!!!!!!!

I have shied away from the pastorate for years. I loathe politics with a purple passion and all I see pastors forced to go through is politics over every stupid thing that can be imagined. A sad excuse. One I am about to stop hiding behind... more on that when I feel it is right to speak publicly of it...

Yes there are women in the pulpit that have a chip on their shoulders and are doing the things of ministry for all the wrong reasons. But there are men who are too. I believe the Lord will sort all of this out.

And I would not be surprised in the least if there are women who are among the elders in heaven. The Eve factor dealt womankind a mighty painful blow, but it certainly did not make women nonredeemable or second class, and look at how Christ and Christianity elevated women from the jaws of unforgiving humankind (males and... females who are sometimes a woman's worst enemy aren't they...)

I personally believe the only thing about our genders we ought to remind ourselves of on a steady basis because we are still in the fallen flesh is to treat each other like brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers and respect the urges that can affect or mislead us all.

Billy Graham would not be in a room by himself with a woman who was not his wife or relative. He would not ride alone with one. And I am not among those who think he is second to Christ as some do but I admire the socks off of him for this wisdom.

So when I see a dear sister in Christ being bludgeoned by the Eve factor because she stepped up to ministry... I counter with the Deborah factor and then I lite into the perpetrator for being as coward as Barak (Judges 4:8) or to step up or shut up.

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Carol Swenson
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Don't think there will be any women on that list, but thanks for the vote John.
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Betty Louise
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Of course it could be anyone but I believe it is the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 disciples.
Obviously they are important to God to be around the throne.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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John Hale
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Abraham
Moses
Isaac
Jacob
David
Sarah
Ruth
Jehoshaphat
Job
Abel

perhaps many of prominence to God that did not get scriptural or traditional mention???

The elders could be anyone.

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Betty Louise
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Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.


Many believe that the 24 elders are representative of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 disciples.
I agree with this teaching. Even when God drove the children of Israel from their Country for punishment, He allowed them to go home again.
God will once again bring the 12 tribes home again.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Beware of preachers/teachers who do not know the fact that Israel and Juda are split.
They can't help you at all with Eschatology if they dump all 12 tribes into one and call them all Jews.
They show their Biblical ignorance when calling all 12 tribes Jews.

Isaiah 48:1 (KJV)
1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

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Thunderz7
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In this world there are people who are =

>>> natural seed of Abraham from before the covenant of circumcision whose mother is not Sarah

>>>natural seed of Abraham from after the covenant of circumcision whose mother is not Sarah

>>>natural seed of Abraham through Sarah = seed of the promise

>>>spiritual seed of Abraham = come to the promise by faith

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yahsway
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And Carol is right. The tribes are coming together even now.
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yahsway
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Betty, God did divide Israel.

1Kings 11:31

And he said to Jeroboam, "Take for yourseld ten pieces for thus says the Lord, The God of Israel, "Behold, I will Tera the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you, (but he shall have ONE tribe for the sake of My Servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of ALL the tribes of Israel)),

It was a God thing if you will. All "Jews" are Israel but not All Israel are Jews.

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Carol Swenson
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The name JEW actually comprises a nickname. Nicknames may eventually be incorporated as the primary name of an ethnic group. In the Bible and Hebrew language, the proper name for the people of the tribe of Judah was Yahudi or Judahite. Another variation is Judean, meaning resident of Judah or Judea. Over the years, the word Yahudi was corrupted and shortened to Jew. Remember that there is no ‘J’ sound in the Hebrew language, and the yod should be pronounced as a ‘Y.’

By the time of Jesus Christ, all Israelites were referred to as Jews. Paul called himself both an Israelite and a Jew. The term “Jew” came to refer to all descendents of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob.

[thumbsup2] [thumbsup2] [thumbsup2] You're right Betty. Jesus said there are twelve tribes.

And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel". (Matthew 19:28)

Ancient Israel is not understandable unless the tribes are taken into account, and Israel of the future also is not understandable unless the same twelve tribes are recognised; the tribes are eternal.

In the time of renewal to come, Israel’s tribes will be restored;

He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also make You a light of the nations
So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."
(Isaiah 49:6)

Most of the tribes are isolated and lost to Jewish tradition. The tribes are not lost however; God knows about them and He will return them to their heritage.

For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us
And Israel does not recognize us
You, O LORD, are our Father,
Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.

Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways
And harden our heart from fearing You?

Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
(Isaiah 63:16-17)

The tribal blessings from Moses (Deuteronomy 33) are for the Messianic age.
Prophecies of Israel’s restoration are for the last day and for the Messianic age.

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Betty Louise
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After the death of King Solomon the descendants divided Israel, but God did not divide Israel. There is nothing in the Bible that says God gave up on the 12 tribes of Israel.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Ezekiel 13:20
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Beware of preachers/teachers who do not know the fact that Israel and Juda are split.
They can't help you at all with Eschatology if they dump all 12 tribes into one and call them all Jews.
They show their Biblical ignorance when calling all 12 tribes Jews.

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

quote:
Third, the work of God in Israel was especially carried out by the Levitical priesthood while in the Church it is the anointed, spiritually gifted believer priest that carries out the work of God. The New Testament believer has been given "the ministry of reconciliation" (2 Corinthians 5:18-20). A believer in the Old Testament, from the tribe of Asher or Gad, could make no such claim.
I am gratified that this points out the priesthood of every believer (too few pulpits preach this or recognize this as being biblical)... BUT... this also indicates the author's / scholar's / expert's ignorance of scripture...

Exodus 19:6 (NIV)
6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

It was the failure of physical Israel to do so (and the failure in the wilderness with the calf idol) that prompted the Lord to set aside the Levis as priests and a priesthood within the tribe.

This is also prophetic of the kingdom of priests who would succeed at this in the New Covenant which this passage refers to as "Israelites."


Yes, in the Messianic Kingdom, Israel will be a blessing to all the nations.

I am born of the Holy Spirit of Christ. I am a Christian.

Until you can prove that the Holy Spirit is an Israelite, I will reject the idea that Christians are Israelites, (if that is what you are implying), or that the Body of Christ is spirit Israel.

The covenant here mentioned [Exodus 19:6] was the national covenant, by which the Israelites were a people under the government of Jehovah. As a nation they broke this covenant; therefore the Lord declared that he would make a new covenant with Israel, writing his law, not upon tables of stone, but in their hearts, Jer 31:33; Heb 8:7-10. The covenant spoken of in these places is the national covenant with Israel, which they forfeited by their sins. Unless we carefully attend to this, we shall fall into mistakes while reading the Old Testament.

(Matthew Henry)

"and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.” (Exodus 19:6 NASB)

Aaron and his sons would be consecrated later to serve as priests to the nation (Ex. 28–29), but it was God’s intent that all Israel live as priests, manifesting His truth and sharing His blessings with the world. Israel was to be God’s “showcase” to the Gentiles, proving to them that there is but one true and living God and that serving Him is the way to fullness of blessing (Isa. 42:6; 49:6). Unfortunately, instead of Israel influencing the nations to worship Jehovah, the nations influenced Israel to worship idols! The Jews adopted the religions and lifestyles of the Gentiles and so desecrated themselves, their land, and the temple, that God had to chasten them severely and send them into Babylonian Captivity. The day will come, however, when Israel will see her Messiah, be cleansed of her iniquities (Zech. 12:10–13:1), and become a nation of holy priests to serve the Lord (Isa. 61:6).

(Wiersbe)

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

quote:
Second, the two entities function under two different covenants. Israel functioned under the Old Covenant and the Church has been privileged to be "partakers" of some of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant.
Wow this is incredibly ignorant of the Bible and the facts. The New Covenant was intended for the Jew first and then the Gentile.

Romans 1:16 (NIV)
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

I mean... just... wow... {shaking head}


Wow this is incredibly ignorant of what you just read. I’ll quote the WHOLE paragraph.

"Second, the two entities function under two different covenants. Israel functioned under the Old Covenant (this is true John, yes?) and the Church has been privileged to be "partakers" of some of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant." (Note: The New Covenant was made with Israel and Judah and must be fulfilled with them.) There is a stark contrast between these two covenants as taught in 2 Corinthians 3 and Hebrews 7-10 and the New Covenant is clearly superior to the Old. The New Covenant ministry is uniquely a broadened and expanded ministry of the Holy Spirit. The operating principles of the Church are significantly different from that of Israel."

I mean... just... wow... {shaking head}...you must have not read the bolded part.

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

For in Christ Jesus neither physical Jeiwshness availeth any thing, nor physical Gentile, but a new creature... the Israel of God.

You changed the wording of scripture to "prove" your point.

For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:15-16 NASB)

Here is Galatians 6:16 in several translations:


English Standard Version
And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

New American Standard Bible
And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

International Standard Version
Now may peace be on all those who live by this principle, and may mercy be on the Israel of God.

King James Bible
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

American King James Version
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and on the Israel of God.

American Standard Version
And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Bible in Basic English
And on all who are guided by this rule be peace and mercy, and on the Israel of God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And whosoever shall follow this rule, peace on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Darby Bible Translation
And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace upon them and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

English Revised Version
And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Webster's Bible Translation
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

World English Bible
As many as walk by this rule, peace and mercy be on them, and on God's Israel.

Young's Literal Translation
and as many as by this rule do walk -- peace upon them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God!

The new creation and the Israel of God are not the same.

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You both are patting each other and especially yourselves on the back for revealing the differences in the covenants and their effects.

So?

It has been a long drawn out diatribe to prove a point not in question by anyone. So the Holy Spirit before the cross did not dwell IN anyone but was rather WITH them?

Does that preclude that the people who believed and obeyed God as they were accountable to the portion of God's progressive revelation make them any less princes / princesses of God?

I am bemused by the way two people who know the word of God well enough to make such points about a side issue missed out on the Spiritual Israel element in the Bible and that when shown it as plainly as I can show you the texts of scripture... you still don't "get it."

It would not be so laughable if you just said "I don't see it" and then left it alone... but you set out to prove something biblical is not biblical, and that cracks me up because the more your try the more obvious it is you simply do not have a clue.

And you go on and on about a side issue / a different matter entirely.

Covenant A versus Covenant B and the fact that there are prophetic mysteries about Covenant B in Covenant A...

...has nothing to do with the simply stated facts:

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV)
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

For in Christ Jesus neither physical Jeiwshness availeth any thing, nor physical Gentile, but a new creature... the Israel of God.

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[roll on floor] - Check and Mate.

--------------------
That is all.....

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:


quote:
The apostle Paul is clear that this unknown truth related to the Church was something that was hidden from man and was hidden with God until "now" (the time of the apostles and New Testament prophets). The mystery included the facts that believing Jews and believing Gentiles would be united as equals in one body and that Christ Himself would indwell them. While Gentile salvation was seen in the Old Testament, this kind of relationship between Jews and Gentiles, and between God and the believer, was never true in the Old Testament. The Church was something new and significantly different from Israel
Nope. Not true. Based all on the misdiagnosis of what a mystery is.
John, you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know the New Testament well enough to critique it.

To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what [is] the fellowship of the MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly [places], 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. (Ephesians 3:8-12

Mystery No. 1

The Incarnation - Jesus Is God in the Flesh

The first part of the mystery was the appearance of God manifested in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the MYSTERY of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Mystery No. 2

The Holy Spirit - The Divine Indwelling of Christ in the Believer

The second part of the mystery was the filling of believers with the Holy Spirit. This is often referred to as having "Christ in you," being "in Christ," or "Christ lives in me."

Colossians 1:24-27 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the MYSTERY which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this MYSTERY among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the [life] which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain."

Acts 10:44-45 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Mystery No. 3

The Dispensation of Grace

The Body of Christ Which is the Union of Jew and Gentile in the Church Age

The third part of the mystery is the union of all believers, Jews and Gentiles, into one group called the Church or the Body of Christ. This is the Dispensation of Grace in which we now live. The gospel in the Dispensation of Grace is salvation by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and faith in the resurrection.

Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ephesians 3:1-7 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles-- 2 if indeed you have heard of the Dispensation of the Grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the MYSTERY (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the MYSTERY of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Acts 13:45-46 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 14:27 Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

Acts 15:7-9 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as [He] [did] to us, 9 "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith."

Acts 22:21 "Then He said to me, `Depart, for I will send you (Paul) far from here to the Gentiles.'"

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

quote:
"In the New Testament it denotes, not the mysterious … but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit" (W.E. Vine, Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).

LOL I love how "experts" and "scholars" can encyclopediate potty training... (in the words of Tony Campollo). ROFLOL

My answer to you and to Vine and to Fructenbaum and anyone else you can quote is that what the Bible teaches / indicates / reveals trumps all other so-called authorities / scholars / experts...

And the mystery of anything in the Bible is not an indication of when or where it existed but when or how it was revealed.

Your criticism only shows that you did not understand Vine's explanation at all.

"can be made known only by divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit"

This is absolutely correct. The term "mystery" in the Bible does not have the same meaning as it has in common American English.

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

quote:
The apostle Paul also declared that the Church is "one new man" …

Referring to how the physical Jew and the physical gentile in Christ are one new man (spirit Israel).
I think I understand now. You don't love Christ. You don't really know Him, you only know about Him. You would remove His name from "Christian", (Christ-like; follower of Christ), and call His church "spirit Israel." That explains why your understanding of all He did for us and does for us is so weak. Why your knowledge of the New Testament is so lacking.

This is the Christian BBS, not spirit Israel BBS.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

A Christian is a believer in and a follower of Jesus Christ. This name is more widely employed than any other designation of those who believe unto salvation. However, it occurs in the Scriptures only three times: “And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” (Acts 11:26); “and Agrippa replied to Paul, ‘In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian’” (Acts 26:28); “If anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed” (1 Peter 4:16). The term Christian is clearly a Gentile designation for believers because the word Christ, upon which the term was constructed, suggests recognition of the Messiah, which no unbelieving Jew was prepared to do. Becoming a Christian, according to the NT, is a definite act with significant results. According to Lewis Sperry Chafer, no fewer than thirty-three simultaneous and instantaneous divine undertakings and transformations, which collectively constitute the salvation of a soul, take place the moment one exercises faith in Christ and is saved. Among these is that a believer in Christ has the guilt of his sins removed. Second, he is taken out of Adam, the sphere of condemnation, and placed in Christ, the sphere of righteousness and justification. Third, he is given a new standing by virtue of his being placed “in Christ” by the Spirit’s baptizing work (1 Corinthians 12:13; Romans 6:3-4). A Christian then, as Chafer says, “Is not one who does certain things for God but … one for whom God has done certain things; he is not so much one who conforms to a certain manner of life as he is one who has received the gift of eternal life; he is not one who depends upon a hopelessly imperfect state but rather one who has reached a perfect standing before God as being in Christ” (Systematic Theology, 7:75)

(New Unger’s Bible Dictionary)

CHRISTIAN (khrihs' tyan) The Greek Christianos originally applied to the slaves belonging to a great household. It came to denote the adherents of an individual or party. A Christian is an adherent of Christ; one committed to Christ; a follower of Christ. The word is used three times in the New Testament. 1. Believers “were called Christians first in Antioch” because their behavior, activity, and speech were like Christ (Acts 11:26). 2. Agrippa responded to Paul’s witness, “Almost thou persuade me to be a Christian” (Acts 26:28). He spoke of becoming an adherent of Christ. 3. Peter stated that believers who “suffer as a Christian” are to do so for the glory of God (1 Pet. 4:16). A Christian is one who becomes an adherent of Christ, whose daily life and behavior facing adversity is like Christ.

(Holman Bible Dictionary)

We are followers of Christ, not followers of Israel

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

quote:
The Church, unlike Israel, is declared to be a "mystery" (see Ephesians 3:1-12; Colossians 1:26-27).

In the New Testament a "mystery" is a truth that was not revealed previously in the Old Testament.

Which does not mean it wasn't in existence in the OT. Just not revealed.
"Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." (John 3:1-3)

John, according to your beliefs, Nicodemus and Paul, both Pharisees, would already be members of "the Church". But Jesus said they needed to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit first.

So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." (Acts 9:17)

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
________________________________________
The unique character of the Church supports the distinction
________________________________________

The unique character of the Church from the cross onward is the new covenant not the church itself which has always consisted of those who believe (faith) and pursue the spirit over the flesh according to the revelation of the one true God.

"The church itself" is the Body of Christ that lives by the New Covenant because the Body of Christ is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

quote:
The Apostle Paul also tells us that the Church's foundation is the apostles and the prophets of the New Testament with Christ being the cornerstone (see Ephesians 2:20).
Prophets of the New Testament? Do you see this here? I don't. Maybe you could refer us to a translation that does?

The Prophets aside from being individuals of the Old Testament...

Matthew 11:13 (NIV)
13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied
until John.

also refers to a division of the old testament itself. So this attempt to tear apart NT and OT is in error and apparently under the mistake or dishonest attempt to add words to Ephesians 2:20 (i.e. New Testament).

I think Ephesians 2:20 refers to Old Testament prophets who spoke about the Messiah, still future to them. But that doesn't mean there were no New Testament prophets. There were!

"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy" (Acts 2:17-18).

Luke mentions in Acts 21:9 that Philip had four daughters who prophesied.

And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea, a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Pauls girdle, and bound his own hands and feet ,and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. (Acts 21:10-11)

The book of Acts depicts Prophets of exhortation; which means Prophets who fortify the faith of others: Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers.

Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. (1 Corinthians 11:4-5)

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
(1 Corinthians 12:7-11)

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul wrote this prophecy: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

And, of course, the entire Book of Revelation is a prophecy given through John.

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

________________________________________
Not even the apostles were in the body, but they would experience Spirit baptism shortly after Jesus' ascension.
________________________________________

Excuse me?

The disciples were in the body of believers. Peter made the good confession in Matthew 16 right before one of the verses you tried to use to say the Church was a future thing...

"You are the Christ the Son of the living God."

Romans 10:9 (NIV)
9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.



“But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.” (John 16:5-7)

When He was arrested, they all ran away. Peter denied knowing Him three times. They hid in the upper room, afraid and unbelieving until Christ appeared to them after His resurrection.

Being in the Body of Christ is more than just knowing who He is. A person must be indwelt by His Spirit to be in the Body of Christ. And His Spirit did not come until Pentecost.

Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." (Acts 1:4-5)

And He told them:

but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)

quote:
Even if there was some lingering unbelief on the parts of the disciples when the Holy Spirit came upon them it was belief that came on them and made the difference.
The Holy Spirit is much more than "belief". He is a Person.
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
________________________________________
Without Spirit baptism no one could enter the body of Christ
________________________________________

False conclusion arrived at by the fallacious reasoning that got you here. Wow. The body of Christ / body of believers in the one true God goes all the way back to at least Abel. Hebrews 11:4. It was before the cross and the price being paid for human sin so the dead in Christ (the body of faith) could not go to heaven until the cross but rather went to Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:19-31) and was the "captivity" referred to in Ephesians 4:8-10...

Again...

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Romans 8:9)

As you said, the Old Testament saints were in Abraham's Bosom until they were redeemed by Christ after His crucifixion, i.e., they were of Israel, but NOT of the Body of Christ.

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

_________________________________________________

But this vital ministry of the Spirit did not begin until the day of Pentecost.
_________________________________________________

Presumptive as all get out. Are you saying this means all who believed before the cross had nothing to do with the Spirit?

The Holy Spirit was very active in the Old Testament.

Nevertheless, there are a number of ways in which the Spirit’s work in the New Covenant era is greater than that of the Old.

(1) After Pentecost there is a more effective internal working upon the heart of the Spirit. “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people” (Jer. 31:33)

(2) After Pentecost the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit would be much more abundant. The prophet Joel in describing the day of Pentecost and its aftermath said that God’s Spirit would fall directly “on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions” (2:28). In the Old Testament the gifts were limited to only a small number of people. However, in the Messianic age many people, not just priests or elders or a few prophets, would be gifted.

(3) After Pentecost there is a greater, broader knowledge of God among the people. “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more” (Jer. 31:34). Because Christ fulfilled all the Old Testament ceremonial institutions and caused the Mosaic offerings to cease (Dan. 9:27; Mt. 27:51; Heb. 7:27; 8:7 ff.; 9:11 ff.), men now have direct access to God through Christ. The implications of this perfect and complete redemption are profound. Unlike the Mosaic covenant where priests and Levites mediated the knowledge of God to the people, under the New Covenant the knowledge of God will be the immediate possession of every true believer. This point, however, does not mean that we are personally inspired; nor does the prophet teach that we no longer need teachers. But rather the prophet teaches “that God would cause the truth to shine more fully under the Gospel."

(4) After Pentecost there is a greater endowment of power for the task of discipling the nations. Jesus said to the apostles: “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth” (Acts 1:8). Before Pentecost the disciples had preached the gospel and healed the sick (Lk. 10:1-2). However, a change occurred when our Lord poured out the Holy Spirit. A universal-everlasting kingdom (Dan. 7:14), where the Messiah is given total dominion over the earth, must be accompanied by a greater power or enablement of the Spirit. “[T]he Holy Spirit came in the fulness of his grace and power in world-wide activity for the fulfillment of the promise given to Abraham (Gen. 22:18) and that given to Christ (Psalm 2:8), in fulfillment of the world-wide redemptive design and accomplishment. There was the coming of the Son by a distinctive mode and for a distinct undertaking. This is also the coming of the Holy Spirit by a distinctive mode and for a distinctive function....We must not forget it. This the age of Pentecost....This is why we have the gospel. It is because the utmost part of the earth has come within the scope of the Holy Spirit’s activity.”57

The Old Testament expression of the kingdom was small and limited to a tiny nation; a nation that much of the time was rebellious and under judgment. In the new covenant era the church must herald Christ’s salvation to the world.

http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/Pentecost,%20part%204.htm

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
_________________________________________________
Furthermore, the Church (the body) could not be formed apart from the baptizing work of the Holy Spirit. This is so because a believer can enter the Church, the body of Christ, only by means of Holy Spirit baptism (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:13).
_________________________________________________

And belief itself is the gift of God and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I agree that faith is a gift from God, but the Holy Spirit is a PERSON, not just "belief". He is the third Person of the Holy Trinity. He is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ.

A man can believe in worshiping tree bark, but he won't be baptized by the Holy Spirit for that. It is faith in Christ and the baptism of the Holy Spirit of Christ that brings a man into the Body of Christ, the Church.

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

This giving of authority was prior to the cross and after the cross with a 33 year sabbatical while he lived this life as a man able from ability in his divine nature to do the things of God but unable to do so in his humanity until after the cross because it would alter his kinsman redeemership in the sacrifice for our sins. (John 5:19ff note his ability to do himself as he sees the Father doing so it is about restraint not incapability).

So now, I won't grant the erroneous premise that Jesus had no authority until after the cross... and further state that this authority granted him till his enemies are put under his feet began before there was a physical universe to the time when only the spirit realm existed.



It seems you don't comprehend the magnitude of the Incarnation. Yes, He came from Heaven and Glory and He returned to Heaven and Glory, but His life on Earth was far more important than you make it sound.
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
________________________________________
Jesus did not assume that role until after He had shed His blood on the cross, had been resurrected, and then ascended back into heaven. It was at that time, after those events, that the Father "put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him the head over all things to the Church, which is His body" (see 1:22).
________________________________________
You are mixing up events. Besides, it was that authority Jesus laid aside when he became a man...

[God] seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. (Ephesians 1:20-23)

You're the one who is mixed up. You don't know your Bible.

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

________________________________________
It is clear that the Church (the body) could not exist and function without its head, the Lord Jesus.
________________________________________

I am beginning to get the picture here that you or the one you are quoting here does not believe the preincarnate Jesus is the LORD (YHVH) of the Old Testament whom the faithful believed in and served. They did not have enough revealed scripture to know he was the preincarnate Jesus... but nevertheless he was and was the head of the body (assembly) of believers...

The Triune God created the universe. The Triune God raised up the nation of Israel. The Triune God was, and is, their God.

He is also the God of the Christian Church.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)

In the Old Testament, God lived with His people.

“And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.” (Exodus 29:45)

In the New Testament, His Holy Spirit dwells in us.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? (1 Corinthians 6:19)

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

If what you said were true the disciples (note their Apostleship began with the anointing of tongues of fire at Pentecost)would not have had a clue about this ekklesia he was going to build on this rock... thing... and would they not have questioned this? What meaneth he this "church" building?

Their apostleship began when Jesus chose them.

Luke 6:12-13
It was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer to God. And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:

They would have understood ecclesia to mean an assembly of believers in Christ. Matthew 16:18 was a prophecy.

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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:

No, I said there is no "will" in the Greek text of Matthew 16:18.

You are incorrect.


 -

I will build
g3618 οἰκοδομέω oikodomeō
Tense: Future
Voice: Active
Mood: Indicative
* The Future Active Indicative verb form occurs 814 times in the New Testament.

Church: this word (Greek ekklesia) occurs in the gospels only here and in Matthew 18:17 (twice). Jesus' church means the community that He will gather and that, like a building, will have Peter as its solid foundation.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
...continued:

quote:
You are mixing up events. Besides, it was that authority Jesus laid aside when he became a man...


You mean A Child in a manger, visited by Shepard's directed by angels.

[cool_shades]

--------------------
That is all.....

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Revelation 2:9 (KJV)
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 (KJV)
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


So who are this synagogue of Satan?

And before you say me... I do not go to synagogue.

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"SPIRITUAL ISRAEL," "SPIRITUAL JEW"



Following on the heels of believing that the church has replaced Israel as God's covenant people are the beliefs that the church is spiritual Israel and its members are spiritual Jews. The reasoning is thus: Since Israel is a people by natural generation, then the church, which is a people by regeneration of human spirits by the Holy Spirit, it may validly be referred to as spiritual Israel, the true Israel, the New Israel, the Israel of God, or some similar title, and its members as inward Jews, spiritual Jews, Israelites of God, or some similar title.

Since, according to Paul, the church has absolutely not replaced Israel, then none of these designations are valid. Nevertheless, scriptures that are used to support this contrary claim must be examined.

As a preliminary concern, let us see whether or not Scripture uses the word "spiritual" in reference to a believing Gentile being a spiritual Jew.

We will examine all the phrases in the entire Bible in which "spiritual" is used, and then draw some observations:

spiritual gift or spiritual gifts (Romans 1:11; 1 Corinthians 12:1; 1 Corinthians 14:1,12; 1 Timothy 4:14); the Law is spiritual (Romans 7:14); spiritual service of worship (Romans 12:1); spiritual things (Romans 15:27; 1 Corinthians 19:11); spiritual thoughts (1 Corinthians 2:13); spiritual words (1 Corinthians 2:13); he who is spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:15); spiritual men (1 Corinthians 3:1); spiritual food (1 Corinthians 10:3); spiritual rock, spiritual drink (1 Corinthians 10:4); if anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual (1 Corinthians 14:37); spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44); the spiritual [body] is not first (1 Corinthians 15:46); you who are spiritual (Galatians 6:1); every spiritual blessing (Ephesians 1:3); spiritual songs (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16); spiritual forces (Ephesians 6:12); spiritual wisdom (Colossians 1:9); spiritual house (1 Peter 2:5).

OBSERVATIONS:

1. "Spiritual" is never used in conjunction with one's race.
2. "Spiritual" is never used in reference to a believing Gentile being a spiritual Jew.
3. In reference to people, "spiritual" is used only of one who has a mature walk in the Lord irregardless of whether he or she is a Jew or Gentile: he who is spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:15); spiritual men (1 Corinthians 3:1); if anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual (1 Corinthians 14:37); you who are spiritual (Galatians 6:1).

According to scriptural usage, even a believing Jew whose walk is not mature should be not called a spiritual Jew. How then can the church be called spiritual Israel and all of its members spiritual Jews?

We are dealing with terms here, but the concepts underlying the terms will be examined further.

2. ROMANS 2:23-29



23. You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24. For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written. 25. For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26. So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27. And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28. For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

29. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly. Does the passage indicate that a believing Gentile is an inward Jew?

There are three keys to understanding verses 23-29:

1. The passage is a continuation of a major theme in the chapter, that blessings and cursing from God fall upon people irregardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile, but are contingent upon the state of their hearts before God.
2. Verses 23-25 show that Paul is addressing Jews who did not believe.
3. According to Pharisaic Judaism, the dominant Judaism of the day, all Jews who were circumcised would enter the prophesied Messianic Kingdom, and those who were not would not.

Verses 25-27 is a refutation of that Pharisaic belief. What Paul is saying is that Jews and Gentiles who conform to God's requirements will enter the Kingdom, and Jews as well as Gentiles who do not conform to God's requirements will not, because it is inner circumcision, the circumcision of the heart, that determines entry, not outward.

What he is saying in verses 28 and 29 is, "Jews were called out by God to be a people circumcised in heart; but though you are Jews by birth, you are not Jews who are true to your calling because you are not circumcised in heart. To be a true Jew, you must be one inwardly."

Verses 23-29 may be summed up as follows:

1. It is the inward circumcision that counts, not the outward, for entry into God's Kingdom.
2. Neither Jew nor Gentile whose heart is not circumcised will enter God's Kingdom.
3. Both Jews and Gentiles whose hearts are circumcised will enter God's Kingdom.
4. To be a Jew who is true to his calling as a Jew he must be circumcised inwardly.

There is no reference in the passage to Gentile believers being inward Jews. The circumcision of the heart renders one inwardly righteous, not inwardly Jewish. This is consistent with what we've already seen in Part 1: Nicolas, who was a proselyte to Judaism and was outwardly circumcised, and had come to believe and was inwardly circumcised, was still not called a Jew in any sense, but a proselyte (Acts 6:5).

3. ROMANS 4:11-17



11. and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12. and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15. for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16. For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17. (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

As has been shown, it was the covenant that God made with Abraham that laid the foundation for the New Covenant, which is applicable today and by which all who have faith in Christ are counted righteous before God: So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham (Galatians 3:9). In this sense Abraham is the father of all Jews and Gentiles who have faith in Christ; but verse 12 says that Abraham was the father of circumcision to both Jews and Gentiles who follow in the steps of Abraham's faith, and also contains the phrase our father Abraham. This again raises the question: Does a Gentile's faith make him an inward Jew?

The passage is addressing the matter of Abraham's being the father of all who have faith, an inward matter, and is summed up by the quote, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU." Now, if Paul was concerned about a matter of the heart, why did he refer to MANY NATIONS if he was trying to convey that all who are of faith are inward Jews: one nation? The only way his reference could make sense is if he meant that Abraham was the father of faithful Jews, Arabs, Chinese, etc. He was not even thinking of a believing Gentile being an inward Jew.

Paul explained that Abraham's outward circumcision was a sign and a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised. He didn't say that it changed Abraham's race inwardly or outwardly. To be the father of circumcision, then, means to be the fountainhead of those who bear the sign and seal of the righteousness of. . . faith, which is the circumcision of the heart, which Paul didn't say changes one's race inwardly or outwardly.

Americans say, "George Washington is the father of our country," but I'm an American and my name is not Washington. As Americans are recipients of the heritage of which Washington is considered the fountainhead, so all those who are of the faith of Abraham are recipients of the heritage of the faith of which Abraham, humanly speaking, is considered the fountainhead. This is the sense in which the passage uses father, and it is still a commonly used expression in the Hebrew language today. There is therefore no basis in the passage for referring to a believing Gentile as an inward Jew.

Again we'll draw a parallel from the natural realm: Abraham was the father of eight sons (Genesis 16:1-16; 21:1-3; 25:1-2), but only one, Isaac, was in the covenant line. Furthermore, Isaac fathered two sons, Jacob and Esau (Genesis 25:19-26), but only one was in the covenant line: Jacob, whose name became Israel; and none of the sons of Abraham's other seven sons were in the covenant line. It's plain to see, then, that not all whom Abraham fathered physically are Israelites or Jews. In a parallel manner, not all whom Abraham fathered by virtue of the faith of Abraham are inward Jews. Paul makes just this kind of comparison in Romans 9:7, as we'll see right now.

4. ROMANS 9:1-8



1. I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2. that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4. who are Israelites. . . . 6. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7. nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." 8. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Such translations as For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel (New American Standard) and For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel (American Standard Version) seem to say that those who are of the nation of Israel do not constitute the entire nation, but that there are those who are not of the nation who are also part of the nation. But consider these literal translations: all the [ones] of Israel, these [are] not Israel (Analytical-Literal Translation); not all those of Israel are Israel (Literal Translation of the Holy Bible); not all who are of Israel are these Israel (Young's Literal Translation). They start out with the entire nation then eliminate some. They speak of subtraction, not of addition or replacement. Well, is Paul saying that Israel is added to, or subtracted from? If one needed to judge on the basis of translations, he should lean toward literal ones; yet, this is not conclusive. Another thing that needs to be considered is this: Is the statement speaking of people being added or subtracted physically or inwardly?

Paul's dissertation begins with verse 1, and verses 1-5 show that Paul's focus is on the salvation of literal Israelites. His dissertation continues on through the end of the chapter where he reiterates the same concern, and then carries it over to chapter 10. Paul's overriding concern in 9:1-8 is the salvation of Israelites.

In verse 7, Paul tells us that not all of Abraham's physical descendants will be in the covenant line, and uses that as a parallel to the situation within Israel, that not all Israelites are children of God by means of salvation (verse 8). The point is strengthened by verse 31-33:

31. but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33. just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

In verse 31, Paul is speaking of literal Israel, which Mt. Zion in Jerusalem represents. HE in Israel WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED, and he in Israel who does not believe in Him will be disappointed. Again, he is distinguishing between Jews who believe and Jews who do not. They are not all Israel who are descended from Israel means that not all who are physical Israelites are true to the nation's call to have faith in God.

The unbroken focus since verse 1 has been on Israelites, and it continues unbroken through verse 13. Gentiles who are saved are not brought into the picture until verse 23. They are called MY PEOPLE in verse 25, but no mention is made of their being Israelites in any sense. We know that the church is a people of God: for you are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28). They are MY PEOPLE as members of the church, not as members of Israel.

There is no support in the passage for thinking that believing Gentiles are inward Jews or that the church is the new Israel.

5. ROMANS 11:15-29



We've covered the relevant points of Romans 11:1-5 and 11-15, and we'll begin with verse 15 here so we can see the flow of Paul's thoughts in an unbroken manner:

15. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16. If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18. do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21. for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? 25. For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26. and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27. "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." 28. From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29. for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Many hold that believing Gentiles, being the wild olive branches, are grafted into Israel, being the olive tree. Based on that premise, they also hold that believing Gentiles are joined to Israel on the basis of their faith and are therefore inward Jews; and extrapolated to the church, the church is Israel inwardly, the New Israel, etc. Can these claims validly be derived from the passage?

The key question we need to answer is, Is the tree Israel?

Let us consider:

1. Paul is speaking to Gentiles: But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles (verse 13).
2. He is speaking about literal Israel (verses 15, 25-27).
3. He identifies his Gentile audience as being cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and [being] grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree (verse 24).
4. Israel is the owner of the cultivated olive tree. Verse 24: their own olive tree.
5. Believing Jews (verse 17) and believing Gentiles (verse 20) are presently attached to the cultivated olive tree. (Per verse 17, some Jewish branches were broken off, not all.)
6. Gentile believers are partakers with believing Jews of the rich root of the olive tree (verse 17).
7. The tree is a place of blessing, providing nourishment to those who are attached (verse 17).

Is the tree Israel?

It cannot be for the simple reason that Israel owns the tree, and Israel is not owned by itself in any sense.

a. If Israel is taken to be physical Israel as the passage calls for it to be taken, Israel does not own physical Israel; God owns physical Israel: My people and My inheritance, Israel (Joel 3:2).
b. If Israel is taken to represent believers as some take it, Israel does not own believers; God owns believers: 1 Peter 1:18-19. 18. knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19. but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. (Also 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; 7:22-23.)

Since the tree is not Israel in any sense, the passage does not state or imply that believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel in any sense, and it cannot be said on the basis of the passage that they have been added to Israel in any sense, or that they are physical or inward Jews, or that the church is Israel physically or inwardly, or the New Israel, or some similar entity, or that it has replaced Israel.

Not only can the tree not be Israel, it cannot be Christ, the Gospel, or the church either, because Israel does not own any of them either.

What, then, is the cultivated olive tree?

It is something that Israel owns that can bring great blessing to Jews and Gentiles alike. Now, Israel owns the unconditional covenants that God has made with them: to whom belongs. . . the covenants (Romans 9:4); yet, it cannot be the covenants per se because Israelites cannot be broken off from the covenants as the covenants are unconditional. God's covenants with Israel as a nation are still in effect though blessings are presently withheld from the nation as a whole until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and. . . all Israel will be saved (verses 25-26). What can be derived from the passage without contradicting any Bible fact is that the cultivated olive tree is the place of spiritual blessing of which both Jewish and Gentile believers are partaker on the basis of their faith (Ephesians 3:6), and which is rooted in the unconditional covenants that God has made with Israel.

Another element in the passage also refutes the idea that the church has replaced Israel.

Consider verse 26, All Israel will be saved. If Israel is taken literally as context calls for it to be taken, then God has not rejected Israel and the church could not have replaced her; but if Israel is taken as the church, then the statement could read, "All the church will be saved," which would be an absurdity because the church is composed solely of people who are already saved, and Paul had gotten writer's cramp over a three chapter span to climax with an absurdity.

6. GALATIANS 3:6-9,29



6. Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9. So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. . . 29. And if you belong to Messiah, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

And if you belong to Messiah, then you are Abraham's descendants. With this passage, Replacement theologians visit a line of thinking that we have addressed before, that believing Gentiles are inward Jews by virtue of their faith; but as we have pointed out,

1. In the physical realm, a believing Gentile was never called a Jew except in the single instance of Esther 8:17, and never by Jesus or His apostles.
2. Not even all of Abraham's physical descendants are Jews.
3. "Descendant" never carries the meaning of a change of race of one's body or spirit.
4. As in other languages, "descendant" or "son" is often used in Hebrew to designate a follower of someone or some cause, or of one who bears the characteristics of someone or something. In Mark 3:17, Jesus called James and John "Sons of Thunder." He didn't mean that thunder had fathered their bodies or their temperaments, but that their temperaments were like thunder. In Matthew 23:31, Jesus told the scribes and Pharisees, You are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. He was not saying that they were direct physical descendants of those who murdered the prophets, but that they had the unbelieving and murderous attitude of those who murdered the prophets. Some other instances in which Scripture uses "sons" in like manner are: the sons of the Kingdom (Matthew 8:12);the sons of this age (Luke 20:34); sons of Light (John 12:36); sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2); sons of the day (1 Thessalonians 5:5).In none of these instances was "sons" used to denote an outward or inward change of race.
5. In Romans 4:16-17, which deals with the centrality of the believer's faith in salvation, Paul's quotation of A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU militates against the claim that all believers are inward Jews, which would make them one nation inwardly.

In light of these observations, it cannot rationally be concluded that the passage supports the idea that all who are Abraham's descendants by virtue of faith are inward Jews.

7. GALATIANS 6:15-16



15. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

The claim that we are addressing here is that the believing church is the Israel of God, which claim is based on the presupposition that them and the Israel of God refer to the same group, the church. Is the claim valid?

A reading of the letter shows that the issue that Paul was addressing is that some Galatian Gentiles were being influenced by certain Jewish teachers who taught that placing oneself under the Law of Moses, which was accomplished by the rite of circumcision, was a necessary prerequisite for salvation by faith in Jesus. Paul's response in verse 15 may therefore be paraphrased, "Whether you are a Jew or a Gentile, or whether or not you put yourself under the Law, is irrelevant. What counts for salvation is being made a new creation" which, he says repeatedly in the same letter, is by faith apart from the Law (2:16; 3:2,5,11, etc.). 2:16: knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus. He then follows 6:15 by saying, 16. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and [kai] upon the Israel of God.

Dr. Fruchtenbaum writes:4

Covenant Theologians1 must ignore the primary meaning of kai which separates the two groups in the verse in order to make them both the same group. . . .


In a recent work, Dr. S. Lewis Johnson, former professor of Greek and New Testament Exegesis at Dallas Theological Seminary, . . . makes the following observation: "[T]he least likely view among several alternatives is the view that the Israel of God is the church."2

Johnson rejects [that view] on three grounds.

The first is for grammatical and syntactical reasons for which there are two.3 The first is that this view must resort to a secondary or lesser meaning of kai. . . .

An extremely rare usage has been made to replace the common usage, even in spite of the fact that the common and frequent usage of "and" makes perfectly good sense in Galatians 6:16.4

Second, Johnson points out that if Paul’s intention was to identify the "them" as being the Israel of God, then the best way of showing this was to eliminate the kai altogether. . . . The very presence of the kai argues against the "them" being the Israel of God. As Johnson notes, “Paul, however, did not eliminate the kai.”5

The second ground for rejecting this view is for exegetical considerations, which deals with context and usage. Concerning usage, Johnson states:

There is no instance in biblical literature of the term Israel being used in the sense of the church, or the people of God as composed of both believing ethnic Jews and Gentiles. Nor, on the other hand, as one might expect if there were such usage, does the phrase ta ethné (KJV, “the Gentiles”) ever mean the non-Christian world specifically, but only the non-Jewish peoples, although such are generally non-Christians. Thus, the usage of the term Israel stands overwhelmingly opposed to the [view that the Israel of God is the church].

The usage of the terms Israel and the church in the early chapters of the book of Acts is in complete harmony, for Israel exists there alongside the newly formed church, and the two entities are kept separate in terminology.6


. . . . As for context, Johnson observes:

[In Galatians,] the apostle makes no attempt whatsoever to deny that there is a legitimate distinction of race between Gentile and Jewish believers in the church. . . . There is a remnant of Jewish believers in the church according to the election of grace. . . . Paul does not say there is neither Jew nor Greek within the church. He speaks of those who are “in Christ." . . . Paul also says there is neither male nor female, nor slave nor free man in Christ. Would he then deny sexual differences within the church? Or the social differences in Paul’s day? Is it not plain that Paul is not speaking of national or ethnic difference in Christ, but of spiritual status? In that sense there is no difference in Christ.7


The third ground for rejecting this view is theological:

. . . there is no historical evidence that the term Israel was identified with the church before A.D. 160. Further, at that date there was no characterization of the church as “the Israel of God.” In other words, for more than a century after Paul there was no evidence of the identification.8


Johnson’s summary concerning the rejection of the view [that the Israel of God is the church] is:

. . . it seems clear that there is little evidence - grammatical, exegetical, or theological - that supports it. On the other hand, there is sound historical evidence against the identification of Israel with believing or unbelieving Gentiles. The grammatical usage of kai is not favorable to the view, nor is the Pauline or New Testament usage of Israel. Finally, . . . the Pauline teaching in Galatians contains a recognition of national distinctions in the one people of God.9


Another significant point: In Galatians 2:7-9, the circumcision and the uncircumcision are twice identified as the Jews and the Gentiles respectively, and verse 15 of Galatians 6 uses exactly the same terms, providing rather strong evidence that the blessing pronounced is upon two groups: "them", being believing Gentiles, and "the Israel of God", being believing Jews.

Conclusion:

1. The church is not the Israel of God.
2. "Them" refers to believing Gentiles.
3. "The Israel of God" refers to believing Jews.

8. PHILIPPIANS 3:3



3. for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

Here again we are faced with the question: Since the circumcision refers to the Jews (Romans 15:8, Galatians 2:12, etc.), and the true circumcision is said to glory in Messiah, can we not conclude that, since the church glories in Messiah, she is the true Israel?

As always, we need to look at the verse in context:

2. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; 3. for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

A reading of the chapter shows that the evil workers are the same group that troubled the Galatians: Judaizers, Jewish teachers who taught that adherence to the Law was a necessary prerequisite to salvation. They are the false circumcision, which does not mean that they are not Jews, but means "mutilators,"5 whose end is destruction (v. 19).

Writing to Gentiles, Paul says, we are the true circumcision. All Jews and Gentiles who have undergone that circumcision. . . which is of the heart (Romans 2:29), a circumcision made without hands (Colossians 2:11), that is, have been crucified with Messiah (Galatians 2:20), regenerated, are the true circumcision.

Consistent with what we have seen in part 1 of Part 3, being circumcised in heart does not render a Gentile an inward Jew, nor the church the new Israel. It renders such individuals and the church inwardly righteous, that is, in standing before God, as it says in Colossians 1:30: But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption.

Philippians 3:3 lends no support to the idea that the true circumcision refers to the church.

9. HEBREWS 12:22-24



22. But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23. to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24. and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

By equating Mount Zion with the church in verse 23, this passage has been used by at least one influential theologian6 to conclude that the church is Israel. In other words,
you = Mount Zion = Israel = the church.

Is his conclusion valid? Both context and syntax demand that it is not.

As to context:
1. You have come to would have to mean, "You have become." That's quite a leap linguistically, and context demonstrates that it is groundless. The writer was telling his readers not to return to the bondage of the Law because they had come to the glorious liberty and present and future blessing of being in Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
2. You does not refer to the entire church, but to the writer's audience, Jewish believers. (Note the continuous and concentrated references to the Hebrew Scriptures throughout the letter.)

As to syntax: Note how the passage is cleanly divided between place names and persons or groups of persons. The first division contains place names only: Mount Zion, the city of the living God, and the heavenly Jerusalem, and they are one and the same: the holy city, new Jerusalem, which will come down out of heaven from God to rest upon the new Earth (Revelation 21:1-22:5). Then comes the second division, which contains the names of persons or groups of persons only: the church, God, the spirits of the righteous made perfect (the Old Testament saints), and Jesus.

The first division names the place, the second division names the persons or groups of persons who will dwell in the place. This makes three things clear:

1. [They] have come, figuratively speaking, to the place where the named persons will dwell, the new Jerusalem that is still in Heaven and will not touch down to Earth for at least for another thousand years.
2. Mount Zion cannot be a metaphor for the church because the church will be among those who will dwell in it.
3. If one equates Mount Zion with the church, then he must also equate it with God, the Judge of all - which would equate the church with God!
The notion that the church has become Israel cannot be squeezed out of the passage.

10. 1 PETER 2:9-10



9. But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10. for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.

Many who read this passage conclude that Peter is saying that the church is now Israel. Their conclusion is based on this line of thinking:

1. In Deuteronomy 7:6 and other Old Testament passages, God referred to Israel as chosen, a people for His own possession, and similar terms.
2. Peter is now referring to the church in the same terms.
3. Therefore, the church is now the true Israel or the new Israel.

Is this line of thinking valid?

To begin with, there is overwhelming evidence that Peters letters are not addressed to the church, but to Jewish believers:
• Peter was the apostle to the Jews, not the Gentiles (Galatians 2:8), who were Paul's field of ministry (Romans 11:13).
• He wrote to the dispersion (1 Peter 1:1. Young's Literal Translation). Israel was scattered into the Gentile world. The Greek term for the dispersion is diaspora, "the Diaspora" being the technical term for the Jews outside the Land that is still in common use today.
• In 1 Peter 2:12 and 4:3-4, he contrasts the recipients of the letter with the Gentiles.
• 1 Peter 2:9 addresses a nation. Many other passages call Israel a nation, but no passage refers to the church as a nation. The church is a people called out from many nations.
• Peter quotes the Old Testament copiously as in the passage at hand, which contains references to Exodus 19:6; Deuteronomy 7:6, 10:15; Isaiah 42:16, 43:20, and 61:6. Matthew and the author of Hebrews did the same because they wrote specifically to Jews.
• 1 Peter was written in 63 AD, just before the Roman siege of Jerusalem. 4:17-18 is consistent with the Book of Hebrews, which warns Jewish believers to get out of Jerusalem and be physically saved.

1 Peter was not written to the church, but to Jewish believers. Therefore, the passage does not teach that the church is Israel in any sense.

C. SUMMARY AND CONCLUSION

Of the key passages that we have examined that are used by many to conclude that the church has replaced Israel as God's covenant people, or is Israel in some sense, or that all believers are Jews in some sense, we have not found one that passes the test of careful scrutiny. None provide any justification for believing that God has rejected Israel as His covenant nation, or that the church has replaced or been added to Israel in any sense. Therefore, the church cannot validly be called inward Israel, spiritual Israel, New Israel or any such entity, nor can its members be considered inward Jews or some similar entity. Nor can any of its members be called a spiritual Jew unless that member is a physical Jew who has a mature walk in the Lord.

http://www.biblestudyproject.org/israel3.1-replacement-theology-messianic.htm#1._SPIRITUAL_ISRAEL,_SPIRITUAL_JEW

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John Hale
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LOL.

Let the fruit of our posts determine who these apply to and who they do not.

But I will say I am ever a student of the Word of The Lord.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:


WildB... if you had done any Bible study of your own rather than what appears to be simple filling your mind with what others say about the Bible and obviously have no clue themselves... you would discover these things.

And I am not trying to ridicule you as you do me... I WANT you to know the TRUTH which is between the pages of your underused Bible.

Read it for yourself, WildB. Pray the Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible and who dwells in us as believers in Jesus to illuminate the scriptures to you... and go at it with a vengeance...!!!

Hum, ok then back @ you.
[cool_shades]

--------------------
That is all.....

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John Hale
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No, I said there is no "will" in the Greek text of Matthew 16:18. The traditional interpretation includes will. And that is reflected in the example given in Strong's input on ekklesia. Just as the insertion of traditional "he" or "it" in various other scriptures weher it does not exist in the original Greek text (like John 8:24 for example:

John 8:24 (NIV)
24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am {the one I claim to be,} you will indeed die in your sins.”

John 8:24 (KJV)
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am {he}, ye shall die in your sins.

The highlighted do not appear in the Greek. It simply says "if you believe not that I AM, yo will die in you sins.

It is an I AM statement covered over by well meaning interpreters trying to smooth out the readable English but actually do us a disservice as is the case of "will" in Matthew 16:18.

WildB... if you had done any Bible study of your own rather than what appears to be simple filling your mind with what others say about the Bible and obviously have no clue themselves... you would discover these things.

And I am not trying to ridicule you as you do me... I WANT you to know the TRUTH which is between the pages of your underused Bible.

Read it for yourself, WildB. Pray the Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible and who dwells in us as believers in Jesus to illuminate the scriptures to you... and go at it with a vengeance...!!!

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
"Not true. The assembly / ekklesia / church is mentioned by name as far back as Exodus 12:6 and the Hall of Faith passage (Hebrews 11) lists those who walked by the spirit rather than the flesh as far back as Abel. "

“EKKLESIA” means
“CALLED-OUT.”

"
The King James Version
Selected Text
Strong's Greek #1577 ...I will build my church; and the gates of ...
1577 ekklesia { ek-klay-see’-ah}
from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; TDNT - 3:501,394; n f
AV - church 115, assembly 3; 118
GK - 1711 { ἐκκλησία }
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
1b) the assembly of the Israelites
1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
1d) in a Christian sense
1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
1d2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s sake
1d3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
1d4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
1d5) "

WildB, do you just make things up as you go along?

Lol.

And you change your mind when it supports your opinion.

Thought YOU SAID there is no , "WILL"

quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
In the Greek the word "will" does not appear.

quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
"Not true. The assembly / ekklesia / church is mentioned by name as far back as Exodus 12:6 and the Hall of Faith passage (Hebrews 11) lists those who walked by the spirit rather than the flesh as far back as Abel. "

“EKKLESIA” means
“CALLED-OUT.”

Therefore, your interjection of "walked by the spirit" is personal opinion mixed in what "faith" is being explained in the text.

For the Bible clearly states we WALK BY FAITH.

Your being a very bad boy.

The word Church (Gr. ekklesia) is a general term and is interdispensational in scope. It means simply a called-out group, or assembly, and God has had His called-out people in every dispensation. Israel under Moses was called "the church in the wilderness" by Stephen (Acts 7:38). Our Lord instructed those of His day how, if a sinning brother could not be reasoned with, they might, as a last resort, "tell it unto the Church" (Matt. 18:17). At Pentecost "there were added...about three thousand souls" and "the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved" (Acts 2:41,47).

The word ekklesia is not, of course, found in the Old Testament since the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, but it is significant that it is found in reference to Israel some sixty times in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament.

The word Church, then, is a general term for God's called-out people in every age.

The word body (Gr. soma) is an entirely different word in the original. It may refer to any physical body, but when applied to "the Body of Christ," that Body of believers of which we are members, it is a particular term and is distinctly dispensational in character.

But where in the Old Testament is there any prediction of the formation of a joint Body of Jewish and Gentile believers with a position at God's right hand in the heavenlies?

The supposition that the words Church and body are synonymous in Scripture has lead to great confusion. Some, seeing Israel referred to as the Church in the Old Testament, have concluded that the Body of Christ had its historical beginning with Abel or Adam.

Let us be careful, then, about our terminology. The word Church is a general term and is interdispensational in scope, while "the Body of Christ" is a particular term and is distinctly dispensational in scope, since it is the product of "the dispensation of the grace of God."


THE FORMATION OF THE BODY

Probably more "church members" today are interested in the establishment of Christ's kingdom than are interested in the completion of the Body. This is because they have not been instructed in Pauline truth, the truth concerning the present dispensation.

God is not establishing Christ's kingdom on earth today. The King and His kingdom were rejected 2000 years ago. Christ is seated at the Father's right hand as a royal Exile from earth. Believers today are translated "into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Col. 1:13); and "our citizenship is in heaven" (Phil. 3:20).

Indeed, the Church which is Christ's Body came into existence as a result of Israel's rejection of Christ and the postponement of the establishment of the kingdom on earth. It was when Israel had rejected Christ both in incarnation and in resurrection; when she had closed her eyes and ears to all the overwhelming evidences of His Messiahship and had begun to wage war against Him, that "grace did much more abound" (Rom. 5:20). Gradually setting Israel aside as a nation along with the other nations, God now began to form "the Body of Christ," composed of individual Jews and Gentiles reconciled to God by faith in His rejected Son.

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rom. 11:32).

"And that He might reconcile both unto God in one Body by the Cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph. 2:16).

(Cornelius R. Stam)

PS Me thinks you best stick to your original plan.

quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
To maintain peace in the valley, WildB, I believe it is wise to simply put you on ignore. And I'll leave it at that.

Oh thats right this one is a pride thang.

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.


[cool_shades]

--------------------
That is all.....

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