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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Exposing False Teaching   » ARE THERE CARNAL CHRISTIANS? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: ARE THERE CARNAL CHRISTIANS?
WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I truly feel sorry for you WildB....I sincerely pray Yahweh open the eyes of your understanding.

As I do you.

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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I truly feel sorry for you WildB....I sincerely pray Yahweh open the eyes of your understanding.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
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If U don't like legal ham , then SPAM!

U R Cold Short Iron.


 -


My name Becausehelives and Berry ar bible Legalist ,we search grace people, send us messages LawisGrace@fordhx.com we send u info:)
bvkap zgfhj slnbm



—LOLWUT
Spam is a delicious processed luncheon meat product that your mom cooks with everything. Spam is also a legitimate form of advertising and a multi-million dollar industry that everyone loves to hate. Spam had its origin when authors like Alexandre Dumas were paid by the word to publish novels so they would be of superior quality. Most spammers make an honest living out of reposting the same quality content over and over again, ad infinitum, you know, until people really get the picture. Sadly, some people invoke actual wire, mail, and e-mail fraud laws to abuse these humble public servants simply trying to get the word out about their new methods of curing sinful dysfunction. Some, however, spam with malicious intent on forums and message boards. Those people are not from God.
Don't knock it. It's got its own key. Hormel Foods Corporation, the makers of spam, have revealed future revisions of their spam would use the latest in 128-bit public encryption technology for the cans, as the traditional key is insecure, especially as it is included with the can.
Three great characters to spam on board with character limits on their posts are the following : ፼ (U+137C), ₔ, and  (U+E366) (seriously, those are three single characters) because they are hueg liek Xbox and will allow you to cover more page area with the small character limit.

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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My contention is that the modern school of self-styled "grace teachers" have in reality "turned the grace of God into lasciviousness" (Jude 4). It is all a part of the age-end apostasy. It genders the antinomianism, which is going to cause a large part of professing Christendom as well as the world, to take the mark of the Beast when he appears.

It is difficult to account for the attitude of these ministers who claim themselves to be teaching that the Divine justification is "by grace through faith" aside and distinct from any work or merit of man. The fathers of the reformation did a very thorough work of rediscovering and setting forth this magnificent doctrine, yet without disparaging the principle of law, or reducing grace to a kind of divine sentimentality, or faith to an empty babble of "taking Jesus as personal Savior." In their zeal to displace the dead works of human righteousness as a cause of salvation, have they not, consciously or unconsciously, discounted the God-wrought righteousness, which is its inevitable effect and its immutable objective.

"For we (Christians) are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before prepared that we should walk in them." It is this class of teachers that have been the proponents of the "carnal Christian" doctrine. They have misused one passage of scripture to divert the whole course of New Testament teaching.

The use of the term "carnal Christian" unavoidably implies a habitual state of carnality, and it is from any such constant state that regeneration is represented as being the alternative, the antithesis. For carnality to be a habitual characteristic is a sure indication of the dominion of sin. But we are plainly told by the Apostle:

"For sin shall not have dominion over you. Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey: whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? . . . Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness" (Rom. 6:14, 16, 18).

It is a serious thing for any Christian teacher to water down the implications of regeneration. For in so doing he conveys a false hope: he comforts the self-deluded individual who thinks he is saved and is not: he condones sin and lowers the standards of discipleship: he does despite to the Spirit of Grace and even to the divine character, because he asserts (in effect) that one can be "a partaker of the Divine nature" and continue in a course of fleshliness: he implies that one can "eat his cake and have it too," or that he can successfully serve both God and Mammon. He sets forth the spiritual walk as preferable but the carnal as passable. Say they; that there are three classes of men, the natural man, the carnal man and the spiritual man. The natural man is, of course, the unsaved child of the world. The carnal man is a saved man who, however, still walks in the flesh. The spiritual man is the higher quality of saved man, who walks in the Spirit and in the course of obedience. (A book by Lewis Sperry Chafer called "He that is Spiritual" and the notes in the Scofield Bible on pages 1213-14 have been two great contributors to this widespread error. - ED.)

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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Its not surprising that becausehelives(moderator unqualified) Failed to read this by Brother Stam.

THE OLD NATURE NOT ERADICATED IN THIS LIFE

There are those who, with good motive, to be sure, strive to achieve the eradication of the old nature in this life. Such do not help, but hinder, the attainment of true spirituality.

First, the doctrine of eradication, far from taking a truly serious view of sin, takes a very shallow, superficial view of it. Those who teach it suppose that if we could get rid of the sins we recognize we should be perfect, not realizing that at our very best we all, having fallen into sin in Adam, constantly "come [present tense]2 short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23) and will continue to come short of it until we are changed to be "like Him." Thus "We, through the Spirit, WAIT for the hope of [perfect, personal] righteousness by faith" (Gal. 5:5).

Concerning those who feel that they have achieved the eradication of the old nature, the fact is that others can invariably testify that they have not! And generally those who claim to be without sin are guilty of one of the greatest of all sins—spiritual pride.



Question

"Is there such a thing as a Carnal Christian?"

Answer

Yes, in fact, there is no such thing as a Christian who is not at times carnal. Did you get that? And if you're saying to yourself, "I have never been carnal," then, "God have mercy on you."

But let me tell you what people mean by that. There was a definition of a Christian as a Carnal Christian, as if that was a permanent condition. The people in the Church used to teach that there were three kinds of people, Natural, Carnal, and Spiritual. And they would define the Natural person as unregenerate, unsaved, self on the throne, life in chaos, and sin everywhere.

Then there is the Carnal person. What's that? That's the Christian who still has self on the throne. Christ is still in there somewhere, running around, but He is not in charge, and the life is still in chaos. So the only difference between a natural and a carnal person is that Christ is in there somewhere, but the life hasn't changed.

And then thirdly, there is the Spiritual Christian. Self is off the throne, Christ is on it, and the life is all in order. And so people came up with the idea that you could be either a Carnal Christian or a Spiritual Christian. You know, once you are saved you could say, "Well, I am going to stay a Carnal Christian, I like it better."

And that brings in this whole idea of Lordship, because those are the people who accepted Jesus as Savior, but not as Lord. Those are the people who said, "I don't want to go to Hell, and I want you to save me from Hell and I want you to forgive my sins, but I just don't want you to run my life.

And the old definition of a Carnal Christian was a person who believed in Jesus for salvation, but didn't let Him be Lord, and didn't let Him run his life. That's not what a Carnal Christian is. That isn't at all what Paul had in mind in 1Corinthians 3, not at all. Let me show you what it is.

There is only two kinds of people in the world. My grandfather use to say the "saints" and the "ain’ts," that's it, Christians and Non-Christians, Believers and Unbelievers. Now listen, the Natural man is the unregenerate. The Spiritual man is the regenerate man. Read Romans 8, the Spiritual man is the regenerate. But the Spiritual man can act in a fleshly way. Anytime you disobey the Lord, you are carnal. Anytime you obey the Lord, you are Spiritual. Anytime you do what you ought not to do, you are carnal. That means fleshy, you're operating off the principle of sin. Anytime you do what the Lord wants you to do, you honor the Word.

So carnality is not a permanent state of Christians who have not given Christ Lordship. Carnality is simply a momentary experience of the Believer who is disobedient to God. So it is not a state, it is simply a kind of behavior. And all Christians at any given moment, right now, this moment here, are either Carnal or Spiritual, depending on whether you functioning in the Spirit or in the flesh. If you are sitting there and the Spirit of God is teaching you, and you are enjoying what's happening, then the Spirit of God is at work, you're a Spiritual person.

If you're sitting there saying, "I don't like what he is saying, I don't buy any of this stuff. I reject all this stuff. This stuff isn't true." And you have hostility in your heart, and you may be dealing with sin, and you don't like what I said, I don't know. Your flesh is reacting, that's Carnality. Understand?
Added to Bible Bulletin Board's "MacArthur’s Questions and Answers" by:

Tony Capoccia
Bible Bulletin Board
Box 119
Columbus, New Jersey, USA, 08022
Websites: www.biblebb.com and www.gospelgems.com
Email: tony@biblebb.com
Online since 1986

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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quote:
"The flesh," even as it remains in the believer after salvation, is that which was generated by a fallen begetter. It is the old Adamic nature. It is sinful in itself. It cannot be improved. It cannot be changed. "That which is born [begotten] of the flesh is flesh," said our Lord (John 3:6) and it is as impossible to improve the "old man" in the believer as it was to make him acceptable to God in the first place.
Mr. Stam in continuing his perverted Gospel missed the point of sanctification...taking up your cross and following Yahshua. Crucifying the flesh.

Controlling Your Flesh and Keeping it Under Subjection to Your Spirit

In order for us as Christians to Live the New Life of the Spirit, we must be led by the right leader. Who we obey becomes our master, so we must obey the leading of the spirit and not the lusts of the flesh. In a world controlled by lust, greed and covetousness, we must not be like them and follow our fleshly greeds. Instead we must follow the Spirit of God within us, He will guide our heart/spirit.

St. Paul had a lot to say about this, in one place he said "I buffet my body daily", No He did not go to his local all you can eat restaurant daily. To "buffet" means to constantly beat into subjection, and no he did not walk around physically beating himself like those crazy in Psych. wards. He used this word to describe the constant hard discipline he demanded of himself. Christianity takes discipline. The word "Disciple" comes from the same root word "to Discipline" and Christianity is not a easy walk in the park of blessings all the time. We must pick up the cross daily and follow Jesus, we must consider ourselves dead to sin and Alive unto Righteousness

Keeping the body under subjection

by: J. Doctor www.fofmc.net


1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.the word castaway mean unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate
in the Greek )


Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


Summary - Review
As we have learned from the Word of God, Man is a spirit, he has a soul (mind, will and emotions), and he lives in a physical body. Man’s spirit is his heart, and his heart must become recreated, regenerated, or be born again to enter into the Kingdom of God. The only way to experience the new birth is to receive Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, at that instance the Holy Spirit comes into you and changes your heart, (your spirit), and you were born again, born of the Spirit of God. Our minds must be renewed with the Word of God, and our flesh must be crucified, mortified and put to death; In other words our body must be kept under control, under subjection. This lesson focuses on what the Bible tells us to do with our body (the house you live in).

A. Paul said that he kept his body under subjection. (1 Co 9:27)

1. We can do the same. (Rom. 8:13-14)
2. We crucify our flesh (there is a war going on and we need to take the side of the spirit)


Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:



3. The reason why we mortify, and crucify our flesh, and bring our bodies into subjection is because our bodies were not changed like our heart, (our spirit). Our bodies will be redeemed in the future, but until then we must control our flesh.


B. The Word of God also tells us to present our bodies to God and live Holy.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

C. In Matt. 18:8,9 Jesus meant to rid of the things that cause us to sin.


Heb 12:1 … let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Jam 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

(BBE) For this reason, putting away all dirty behaviour and the overweight of evil, take into your souls without pride the word which, being planted there, is able to give you salvation.

1Pe 2:1 Having put aside, then, all evil, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envyings, and all evil speakings,

D. Controlling your tongue is the major way to control your body. (James 3:2,8)


Conclusion: We need to keep our bodies under control, so we can be led by the Spirit of God. We don’t want to be led by our feelings or emotions. If we listen to our spirit and are led by the Spirit of God we will never make a mistake. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. If we are doers of this Word of God we will live a victorious Christian life. [B][/B]

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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As we continue our series on True Spirituality, Pastor Stam effectively addresses the two natures in the believer. The conflict between these two natures explains the present warfare we experience within our members. The lesson that follows is a biblical guide on how to have victory over sin in your life.

The Two Natures in the Believer -

THE OLD MAN AND THE NEW

By Cornelius R. Stam

The believer who would be truly spiritual must recognize the fact that within him there are now two natures; that in addition to the fallen nature of Adam there is also the perfect nature of Christ, begotten of God through the Holy Spirit.

So real is the presence of both these natures in every child of God, that in Paul's references to the believer's experience, his personal pronouns refer sometimes to the one and sometimes to the other.

A good example of this is found in Romans 7, where the apostle says on the one hand: "I am carnal, sold under sin" (Ver. 14) and on the other: "I serve the law of God" (Ver. 25). Again he says, on the one hand: "In me...dwelleth no good thing" (Ver. 18) and on the other: "I delight in the law of God" (Ver. 22) referring on the one hand to the old nature, and on the other to the new. Surely the "I" who delights in the law of God is not the same "I" who is "carnal, sold under sin" (Ver. 14). Yet in both cases the apostle uses the first person pronoun, associating both conditions with himself.

That the apostle here refers to two natures in one person is clear from the qualifying clauses he employs. On the one hand he says: "In me [THAT IS IN MY FLESH] dwelleth no good thing" (Ver. 18) while on the other, he says: "I delight in the law of God AFTER THE INWARD MAN" (Ver. 22). Thus the "me" in Verse 18 refers to the old nature, while the "I" in Verse 22 refers to the new. In the former dwells no good thing, while the latter delights in the law of God.

THE OLD NATURE IN THE BELIEVER

The believer who would be truly spiritual must recognize the presence of the old nature within. It would be dangerous not to recognize a foe so near.

The old nature in the believer is that which is "begotten of the flesh." It is called, "the flesh," "the old man," "the natural man," "the carnal mind."

Just as "they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8) so that which is of the flesh, in the believer, cannot please God. "The flesh," as we have already seen, is totally depraved. God calls it "sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3),1 warns that it seeks "occasion" to do wrong (Gal. 5:13) and declares that "the works of the flesh" are all bad (Gal. 5:19-21).

Nor is the old nature in the believer one which improves by its contact with the new. It is with respect to "the flesh" in the believer, even in himself, that the apostle declares that in it "dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18), that it is "carnal, sold under sin" (Rom. 7:14), that it is "corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph. 4:22), that it is at "enmity against God," and is "not subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE" (Rom. 8:7).

"The flesh," even as it remains in the believer after salvation, is that which was generated by a fallen begetter. It is the old Adamic nature. It is sinful in itself. It cannot be improved. It cannot be changed. "That which is born [begotten] of the flesh is flesh," said our Lord (John 3:6) and it is as impossible to improve the "old man" in the believer as it was to make him acceptable to God in the first place.

The "old man" was condemned and dealt with judicially at the Cross. Never once is the believer instructed to try to do anything with him or to make anything of him, but always to reckon him dead, and so "put him off." But more of this later.

THE OLD NATURE NOT ERADICATED IN THIS LIFE

There are those who, with good motive, to be sure, strive to achieve the eradication of the old nature in this life. Such do not help, but hinder, the attainment of true spirituality.

First, the doctrine of eradication, far from taking a truly serious view of sin, takes a very shallow, superficial view of it. Those who teach it suppose that if we could get rid of the sins we recognize we should be perfect, not realizing that at our very best we all, having fallen into sin in Adam, constantly "come [present tense]2 short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23) and will continue to come short of it until we are changed to be "like Him." Thus "We, through the Spirit, WAIT for the hope of [perfect, personal] righteousness by faith" (Gal. 5:5).

Concerning those who feel that they have achieved the eradication of the old nature, the fact is that others can invariably testify that they have not! And generally those who claim to be without sin are guilty of one of the greatest of all sins—spiritual pride.

Certainly the doctrine of eradication is a flat contradiction of Scripture. The first epistle of John emphatically declares:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (I John 1:8).

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us" (I John 1:10).

Paul also speaks of "the law of sin which is in my members" (Rom. 7:23) and urges constant reliance upon the Holy Spirit for overcoming power (Rom. 8:11-13; Gal. 5:16,25). Indeed, if the doctrine of eradication were Scripturally sound there would be no reason for Paul to instruct all believers to deal with the old nature, in such terms as: "reckon," "yield not," "put off," "mortify," etc.

But let us suppose for the moment that it were possible to achieve the eradication of the flesh; would that also dispose of our other two enemies, the world and the devil? Surely not, and having gotten rid only of the fallen nature of Adam, we would, like Adam before the fall, be as subject to temptation from without as he, and would as surely fall. But the Scriptures clearly teach that we all fell once in Adam:

"by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Rom. 5:12).

THE NEW NATURE IN THE BELIEVER

It has been well said that if there is anything good in any man it is because it was put there by God. And something good—a new, sinless nature—has been imparted by God to every believer.

While there is still within us "that which is begotten of the flesh," there is also "that which is begotten of the Spirit," and just as the one is totally depraved and "cannot please God," so the other is absolutely perfect and always pleases Him.

Adam was originally created in the image and likeness of God, but he fell into sin and later "begat a son in HIS OWN likeness, after HIS image" (Gen. 5:3). It could not be otherwise. Fallen Adam could generate and beget only fallen, sinful offspring, whom even the law could not change. But "what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH, and for sin," accomplished, "that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:3,4).

As Adam was made in the likeness of God, but fell, so Christ was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, to redeem us from the fall, that by grace, through the operation of the Spirit, a new creation might be brought into being, a "new man...renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him" (Col. 3:10) a "new man, which, after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24).

John, who does not go as far as the symbol of the new creation in this connection, nevertheless refers to the impartation of the new nature to believers, when he says:

"Whosoever is born [begotten] of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born [begotten] of God" (I John 3:9).

"We know that whosoever is born [begotten] of God sinneth not..." (I John 5:18).

It is evident that the "whosoever," here, does not refer to the individual as such, but to that part of the individual which Paul calls the "new man," for we have already seen that John, in this same epistle, declares that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and make God a liar. It is the new nature in the believer that cannot sin, for it is the new nature, not the old, that was begotten of God.

Thus in addition to our fallen Adamic nature we, through faith, have also become "partakers of the divine nature" (II Pet. 1:4). This is the "inner man" of which Paul speaks in Ephesians 3:16, and this "inward man" delights to do God's will (Rom. 7:22).

Let us thank God that the old nature is under the condemnation of death. Judicially it has already been dealt with. It was put to death representatively in Christ. Practically it will come to its end when our "earthly house...is dissolved" (II Cor. 5:1) or when we are "changed" (I Cor. 15:52) and "caught up...to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thes. 4:17), but the new nature—that which is begotten of God—will never die. In the first place it does not come under the condemnation of sin. In the second, it is that which is begotten, "not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever" (I Pet. 1:23).

Paul, by the Spirit, gives particular emphasis to this fact as it affects believers in this present dispensation, for we are not only "begotten" of the Spirit and given the resurrection life of Christ, but we belong to the "new creation" (II Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10) which God will glorify "in the ages to come," in order to "show the exceeding riches of His grace" (Eph. 2:7).

We have now cleared the way for a consideration of the conflict between the old nature and the new, and of the means placed at our disposal to overcome the old.

THE CONFLICT BETWEEN THE OLD AND NEW NATURES

The epistles of Paul have much to say about the conflict continually going on between the old and new natures in the believer. God has a gracious purpose in permitting this conflict and it has its real advantages to the believer; also, abundant provision has been made for spiritual victory in any given case, but before considering all this, let us deal first with the fact of the conflict itself.

Concerning this conflict, the Apostle Paul writes, by inspiration:

"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Gal. 5:17).

Regarding this conflict in his own personal experience, he writes:

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Rom. 7:19,22,23).

It has been taught by some that we need not experience this continual strife between the old nature and the new. They say: "Get out of the 7th of Romans into the 8th."

We would remind such that the Apostle Paul wrote Romans 7 and Romans 8 at the same sitting; that in the original the letter goes right on without interruption—without even a chapter division. Thus the same apostle who exclaims: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1) refers in the same letter, only a few sentences before, using the present tense, to "the law of sin which IS in my members," and freely acknowledges the present operation of that law in his members, as we have seen above. How then shall we get out of the 7th of Romans into the 8th? Paul experienced both at the same time, and so do we, for while we are free from the condemnation of sin, sin itself nevertheless continues to work within us.

It is true indeed that no amount of striving can improve the old Adamic nature, but it is not true that there should be no strife between the old and new natures, otherwise the exhortations not to "yield" to the dictates of the old nature, but to "put off" the deeds of the old man and "mortify," or put to death, our earthward inclinations, would all be meaningless.

It is a simple fact that the conflict described in Romans 7 is experienced in the life of every believer. Else let those who contend that we should get out of Romans 7 deny it. If they have come to the place where they can consistently do the things that they would;3 where "the law of sin" no longer operates in their members; if in their experience they have been wholly delivered from its captivity; if they need not—up to this very day in their experience—acknowledge: "The good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do"; if they need not cry with Paul: "O wretched man that I am!" if they need not "wait" with Paul "for the hope of [perfect, personal] righteousness by faith," they should take their stand with those who teach sinless perfection and the eradication of the old nature. If, however, they are not prepared to make these claims, they should acknowledge the naked truth of Galatians 5:17 and Romans 7:22,23.

Should it be asked how we are to be blamed if we "cannot" do the things that we would, we reply that Galatians 5:17 was not written to teach us our helplessness, but rather our utter depravity. The Spirit is always present and willing to bestow needed help, but we are so inherently bad by nature that we never consistently succeed in doing the things that we would. Indeed, the flesh wages constant, relentless war to prevent us from doing them.

It is true that the believer has been made "free from sin" by grace (Rom. 6:14,18); that is, he need not, yea, should not, yield to sin in any given case (Rom. 6:12,13). It is also true that the believer is "free from the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8:2) for Christ bore the death penalty for him. But no believer is free from the presence of what Paul calls "the law of sin which is in my members;" that is, from the old nature, with its inherent tendency to do wrong. Nor is he free from the conflict with the new nature, which this involves. If we would be truly spiritual and deal in a Scriptural way with the sin that indwells us, we must clearly recognize its presence; we must face the fact that while, praise God, we are no longer "in sin," sin is still in us, and that though the "old man" is counted as having died with Christ, he is still alive and very active as far as our experience is concerned.

THE BLESSINGS OF THE CONFLICT

But this conflict should not discourage us, for it is one of the sure signs of true salvation. It is unknown to the unbeliever, for only the additional presence of the new nature, along with the old, causes this conflict, for "these are contrary the one to the other."

If we did not experience this conflict at all it could only mean that we were not saved, for with two natures so utterly incompatible dwelling within, conflict would be inevitable. If we know little of this conflict it can only mean that the old nature, in any of its subtle, deceitful forms, has attained the upper hand, for when the new nature asserts itself, as it should, the old nature is sure to "war" against it all the more fiercely.

But not only is the conflict within us a sure sign of salvation; it also creates within us a deep and necessary sense of our inward corruption, and of the infinite grace of a holy God in saving us and ministering to us daily in helping us to overcome sin. And in turn this again gives us a more understanding approach as we proclaim to the lost the gospel of the grace of God.


Endnotes

1. Even though, as we have shown, it may express itself in an attempt at self-betterment, seeking to control the baser passions, and revelling in religious rites and ceremonies, in ascetic practices or in other substitutes for true spirituality.

2. The idea in Romans 3:23 is not, as might appear from the Authorized rendering: "All have sinned and have come short of the glory of God," but "All have sinned and do come short of the glory of God."

3. Granting that Galatians 5:17 might be rendered: "to prevent you from doing what you would," as in R.S.V., the fact still remains that "the law of sin" operates in our members and does hinder us from doing (consistently) what we would.

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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Easy Christianity
7. Carnal Christians?

The "Carnal Christian Theory" is another of the teachings of "Easy Christianity" designed to take the pressure off the average church-goer.. The "great" thing about this teaching is that it also takes pressure off the teachers of "Easy Christianity." Time was that if "converts" went on in or went back to their ungodly lifestyles, they were labeled hypocrites or apostates. Now they are called "Carnal Christians." This looks much better for the evangelists' statistics and avoids painful evaluation of his message and methods.

What is the "Carnal Christian Theory"? Let its advocated explain! "After you have invited Christ to come into your life, it is possible for you to take control of your life again. The New Testament, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3, identifies three kinds of people... These three kinds of people are "the natural man", "the carnal man", and "the spiritual man". The carnal man is the "Christian who has invited Christ into his life," but "is not trusting God" and in rebellion against the lordship of Christ has "taken control of his life again." This is the theory as it is taught in the notes of a popular study Bible and the tracts of a well-known evangelistic organization. Many regard themselves as Christians because of it who are nevertheless under the wrath of God. Like false prophets its teachers cry, "Peace, peace; where there is no peace" (Jeremiah. 6:14 and 8:11).

Don't you be deceived by them! Examine the Scriptures. The entire New Testament testifies against this theory. Read Romans 8:1-17, Ephesians 5:3-7, Galatians 5:19-26. Galatians. 5:24 epitomizes their teaching, "Those who belong to Christ have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires." If your sinful nature has not been crucified by the grace of Christ, you are not a carnal Christian. You are no Christian and need to become one.

The idea that a man may have Christ in his life but not on the throne of his life is the heart of the "Carnal Christian Theory." We noticed already that this dangerous doctrine is contradicted by the entire New Testament. What about 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, its supposed proof-text, does it teach this theory?

The Apostle Paul was not only divinely inspired, but also perfectly sane--not given to contradicting himself in the space of a few lines. In the same letter he made perfectly clear what he would have said about this modern theory. "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral not idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

All Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 is that Christians can and do sometimes in some areas of their lives act like unconverted, worldly men. "Are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? for when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos, " are you not mere men?" (1 Corinthians 3:3,4).

It is one thing in some areas at some times to act like unconverted men, it is something else to be a carnal man as to the dominant characteristic of one's life. Of such the Bible says, "their place will be the fiery lake of burning sulfur" (Revelation 21:8). May God deliver you from going to the place where all "Carnal Christians" will go!

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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Berry less force , more finesse.


[hug]

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That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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Barry, you are the one who is spewing venom. Good grief! Listen to yourself!
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:



Blind leaders of the blind! Wild Bill is a offense to the Gospel. A viper, spewing venom wherever he's allowed. Hardly ever having an idea of his own or from the LORD, Just a Stammer!
Giving excuse for sin and his "bad" angry sinning behavior!

He appears to "hope" carnal Christians are allowed; for if not he wont be there! (in heaven)

There is NO excuse for SIN whatsoever!

For if , if , if, if, we sin we have an advocate with the FATHER..YAHUSHUA (Jesus) CHRIST (MESSIAH) THE ANNOINTED ONE! The RIGHTEOUS!


This should be an occasional stumbling, a slip into sin...Not living like a "PIG" a heathen, like the Stam trash, and wild bill life style suggests!

Repent for defending such trash! Guilty....Drew, Carol, Betty.....Defense of such trash is offensive to the cause of Christ!



Man's natural righteousness is an offense to God. ...

Now it is very clear to all whats really on you and Dales heart.

Becausehelives should disqualify himself ASAP as moderator of this Grace BBS and you Berry, need to publicly apologize to those you have attacked and continuously bear false witness against or be stricken from membership until said time that you do repent.

And I strongly caution any of the baseball fans of a private tutoring from this person via e-mail. As said individual has put forward in this ranting post of his approved by Dale's silence.

Its best to keep all that he teaches in the open that all may learn of his great error in not rightfully dividing the word of Truth.

Most Respectfully,

WK GAINER,
USNR BT2
In service of God, Family, and Country.


[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Heres a card I got today in the mail Berry.

Its what real fruit looks like.


Its from a person I only met once,

Dears Mr Gainer,

I don't know if you remember me, but I am the lady that had the hit and run accident in my Drs parking lot. I wanted to write you much sooner, but did not have your address.
All I wanted to do is thank you so very much for what you did for me.
It is not every day that some stands up for someone and do the right thing, you are a hero in my book and I cant thank you enough.
I have a new found faith in humanity,

Thanks again, great fully yours,


Ma Casaroll.

A very precious "thank you" indeed Bro. Thank you for sharing, and it means so much to have touched another heart with Christ's love.
ThanX Drew.

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That is all.....

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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Heres a card I got today in the mail Berry.

Its what real fruit looks like.


Its from a person I only met once,

Dears Mr Gainer,

I don't know if you remember me, but I am the lady that had the hit and run accident in my Drs parking lot. I wanted to write you much sooner, but did not have your address.
All I wanted to do is thank you so very much for what you did for me.
It is not every day that some stands up for someone and do the right thing, you are a hero in my book and I cant thank you enough.
I have a new found faith in humanity,

Thanks again, great fully yours,


Ma Casaroll.

A very precious "thank you" indeed Bro. Thank you for sharing, and it means so much to have touched another heart with Christ's love.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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WildB
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My my, I wonder if Dale approves of Berrys {FRUIT}

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That is all.....

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Nice Brother...Because He Lives!
You know this is probably one of the lasts posts ill make here... [Frown]

There is NO SUCH THING as a "carnal Christian"; the very term "Christian" was used mockingly at Antioch, toward those that "were little "Jesus‘"; those that were lost were making fun of the followers of Jesus (Yahushua)!

BECAUSE they were like "Jesus"!

That understood , to say "carnal" "of the flesh" is "Christ like” is absurd"
For Yahushua was never carnal, never in the flesh, and without sin!

So let the pigs wallow in the mud who believe this "excuse" to live ungodly!


Blind leaders of the blind! Wild Bill is a offense to the Gospel. A viper, spewing venom wherever he's allowed. Hardly ever having an idea of his own or from the LORD, Just a Stammer!
Giving excuse for sin and his "bad" angry sinning behavior!

He appears to "hope" carnal Christians are allowed; for if not he wont be there! (in heaven)

There is NO excuse for SIN whatsoever!

For if , if , if, if, we sin we have an advocate with the FATHER..YAHUSHUA (Jesus) CHRIST (MESSIAH) THE ANNOINTED ONE! The RIGHTEOUS!


This should be an occasional stumbling, a slip into sin...Not living like a "PIG" a heathen, like the Stam trash, and wild bill life style suggests!

Repent for defending such trash! Guilty....Drew, Carol, Betty.....Defense of such trash is offensive to the cause of Christ!

One can live a Holy, separated life apart from sin.....Not that i have attained but i press on...You cannot live a "carnal" life, a sinful life and say grace will cover every thing because i said the Roman road years ago....Let this statement be a warning to you who believe that "satan's" lie!

You must be HOLY as HE is HOLY...! Wake up you that are asleep, separate yourselves from that lie that “no matter what you do, nor what you say, nor what you live like” GRACE will cover everything, Grace will NOT COVER A ROTTEN HEART Bill!...

Grace when applied to ones life is all that is needed for that initial sanctification, but then you must walk the walk have {FRUIT}: Grace is what initially saves you yes; what then!

Why is the gate narrow, and the path straight???????? WHY be FEW that find it???????


If your right Drew, why not sell all you have buy gospel tracts in every language in the world and drop them from airplanes???? SAYING the ROMAN Road; and at the end of the tract tell them that no matter what you do now "GRACE" will cover it???

Pig talk, hogwash; lying statements originated from the father of lies...satan!


Why does the LORD tell us to be Holy, why does Paul warn, that we will not escape the damnation of hell if we do the things the world does...fornication, murder, stealing, etc??????

Why?

Blind leaders of the blind, not only are you hindered from entering the kingdom of Heaven, you stop others with your lying false gospel. Makes me sick...like unto vomiting!

Day after day; perpetrating your filth and lies from satan and trying to teach you can live like a PIG or be a PIG and grace will pull you through!

Garbage.......at least wildbill is consistently living the false gospel, but Drew you and Carol flip back and forth like a fish out of water; neither consistent nor correct. Like wind changing with the tempest!

I have posted some bold things I see in the gospel, I never said one would go to hell for not keeping the Sabbath (on Fri eve to sat eve).
I never said that to be saved one must keep the law!
I never said that Yahushua “must” be used instead of Jesus to be saved!
The mystery is NOT a lie, don’t think I ever said that either, but some things that are taught as the mystery is a lie!

Esp. the misinformation of #8 I never said that retention of the law will be the guarantee of everlasting life!

YHWH will Judge the HEART of man, what is in your heart????


Things Bill constantly posts:


1That OSAS, is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.

Granted I do not see (2) two judgments, I think that all will stand at THE Judgment Day.
So if im wrong does that make me a legalist, or not a brother?


Im constantly misquoted, about the law, the commandments, etc…

The law is good, the law is perfect and I meditate on it day and night……is that legalism?/

Is the law of YHWH gone? Is the Gospel of Yahushua HaMashiach now different because Yahushua talked with and saved Paul?


Pigs love to roll around in mud puddles, but lambs have no business being near mud puddles! Therefore, if you claim to be a lamb, do what lambs do. Don't act like a pig. Lambs are humble and they like to stay clean. Lambs are most comfortable when they are laying on clean straw in a clean stable. But a pig will always return to the mud puddle, because pigs love mud! The mud puddle is home to a pig. And a clean stable with fresh pasture is home to a lamb because a true lamb hates filth! No true lamb would willfully roll in a mud puddle and no pig would be satisfied without a mud puddle. Neither does a shepherd attend to pigs. A shepherd attends to lambs because lambs are dependent on the shepherd. But pigs are solitary in nature. They would never stay in a "herd" because pigs care only for themselves. Likewise a pig would never follow a shepherd, because pigs are not followers, rather they are roamers, and they roam wherever their own hearts lead them. But a lamb follows. A lamb is dependent on a shepherd. A lamb loves his shepherd and recognizes the shepherds voice. A lamb obeys the shepherd's call. Let us all follow our shepherd, YHWH, by striving to follow all of His Laws, without deviating to the left or to the right, without adding, subtracting, or changing His Laws in any way!


Does this offend you? All of it of the part about striving to follow all of YHWH’s laws?

What’s wrong with that? You’re a former deputy Drew? Do you now teach to steal, murder, etc; because of grace?

Surely not! Let us not now SIN that GRACE may abound!

Carol its not in your heart to please YHWH?, do you not strive to be Holy and SIN NOT? Do you not think about YHWH’s law and try to please HIM?

Betty is it in your heart to “lay your life down, take up your cross and follow Yahushua?”

What about covetousness, can we love YHWH and not steal, not murder, and covet?????

Will grace cove a covetous heart, without conviction and repentance???

Wildb , let the LORD Yahushua Judge this man!

If the part above about the PIGS bother you then, perhaps you need space to repent!

For a sheep will follow Yahushua the shepherd, and will repent upon conviction. Brother Paul stated follow me as “I FOLLOW” Christ, the Messiah…NOT a different gospel; the same!

The wonderful (part of the mystery) mystery is that the gentiles were also to be grafted in! To THE Gospel!

The only good news (GOSPEL) which is that Yahushua is EVERLASTING LIFE! Paying the price for even the gentiles SIN!;

Part of the mystery were that we were GRAFTED in contrary to the vine; BEWARE the natural branches (Jew) can be reattached easier than the unnatural branch (gentiles)

This is my heart, I do not know how I can help any of the “leaders” here , I post this as a witness against, Them; and also for the lambs seeking the truth and the right way…..

Unless the Master Yahushua HaMashiach leads I will no longer post here.

My email is: barrykind@yahoo.com

I will correspond with as many as would comment.

YHWH Bless and keep the lambs; convert the pigs that would repent and rebuke those otherwise!

Love
Barry
Bondservant of Yahushua the Messiah and my Master

It is clear to all your prideful working of the law and this continued arrogant use of Gods most holy name as a smoke screen for your deeds is just plain evil.

I assure you it is not a Biblical proof,

of Righteousness.

OR

Eternal salvation.

The Spirit works with each person in different ways, within Gods timing not yours, not mine.

Ephesians 4
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


Application is individual.....

So I guess to you seeing someone not at the pinnacle of greatness you have attained would consider them not babes or carnal but instead not even have been born of the Spirit at all.

This thinking is in great error on your part and very Pharisaical as it mater's to the present Dispensation of the Grace of God.

Father forgive him because he does know what hes doing..

I shall pray that the Spirit of God enlighten his Word to you and send correction your way post hast.

This will be done in Jesus name.

Amen.

For as of this day it is clear to all you just don't get it.

ENOUGH SAID!

[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

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Caretaker
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Barry the true nature of the redeemed is BOTH pig and sheep. This is the DUALITY which Paul speaks about in Romans 7.

It is not either or as you premise.

Although a Christian is a new creature in Christ, yet he continues to have an inward man and an outward man. So we may say with emphasis of each Christian that he is two persons in one. This dual nature of humankind is referred to often in Scripture. The Bible says, “But though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day” (2 Corinthians 4:16). The outward man refers to the physical body, and the inward man refers to the soul. Man and woman then have a soul and a body; they are spirit and flesh. But what actually is the soul? The clearest definition of the soul is found in the rendering of Luke on the great question of Jesus about the soul. In Mark 8:36 the Lord said, “For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” We learn from this verse that the soul of man is more valuable than all material possessions combined. In Luke 9:25 Jesus said, “For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?” Jesus reveals in this statement that your soul is yourself, that part of you that hopes, loves, prays, is tempted, sins, repents, and can be saved. Your soul is your higher spiritual self. By comparison the physical body is composed of a little iron, lime, water, sulphur, gluten, salt, and a few other ingredients. Our physical bodies cannot be saved; they are material, perishing, and corruptible. The Bible says that our bodies cannot enter into heaven by reason of their material and corruptible nature. The Bible says, “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption(I Corinthians 15:50).

Hence, we have two entirely different natures. The body is fleshly and interested in earthly things, but the soul is spiritual and interested in heavenly things. The result is that we have a split personality, a part of us can die and a part of us cannot die. Accordingly, we can be heavenly minded or earthly minded, according to which part of our nature is allowed to dominate our lives.

Within us dwells the Lamb and our Lamb nature desires the righteousness of Christ. It is our pig nature which so often takes us back to the mud. Praise God that we are redeemed and declared righteous because of the righteousness of Christ. As we mature, as we progress in the process of sanctification our Lamb nature leads us more often than our pig nature.

It will ONLY be fully Lamb when our imperfection puts on perfection as we are translated to Glory.

1 Cor. 15:

15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Caretaker
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Dear Barry I will continue to lift you up in heart and most fervent prayers. May you some day find the Truth in Christ Jesus our Lord, and are able to break the Yoke of Bondage to the obsolete Law of Moses.

Barry this is the "stink bomb in church", which you have thrown:

quote:

Let us all follow our shepherd, YHWH, by striving to follow all of His Laws, without deviating to the left or to the right, without adding, subtracting, or changing His Laws in any way!


Brother Paul had to stand against the Legalists time and again to protect the early Church from bondage, and we can do no different.

It is a New Testament which the Lord Jesus Christ has established, NOT the Old Covenant which the Lord made with Israel on Sinai.

One does NOT put new wine in an old wineskin.

The Law of Moses is DONE OBSOLETE, and we have the NEW written upon our hearts through Christ Jesus our Lord, and the LORD GOD indwelling our hearts.

Heb. 8:
8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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barrykind
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Nice Brother...Because He Lives!
You know this is probably one of the lasts posts ill make here... [Frown]

There is NO SUCH THING as a "carnal Christian"; the very term "Christian" was used mockingly at Antioch, toward those that "were little "Jesus‘"; those that were lost were making fun of the followers of Jesus (Yahushua)!

BECAUSE they were like "Jesus"!

That understood , to say "carnal" "of the flesh" is "Christ like” is absurd"
For Yahushua was never carnal, never in the flesh, and without sin!

So let the pigs wallow in the mud who believe this "excuse" to live ungodly!


Blind leaders of the blind! Wild Bill is a offense to the Gospel. A viper, spewing venom wherever he's allowed. Hardly ever having an idea of his own or from the LORD, Just a Stammer!
Giving excuse for sin and his "bad" angry sinning behavior!

He appears to "hope" carnal Christians are allowed; for if not he wont be there! (in heaven)

There is NO excuse for SIN whatsoever!

For if , if , if, if, we sin we have an advocate with the FATHER..YAHUSHUA (Jesus) CHRIST (MESSIAH) THE ANNOINTED ONE! The RIGHTEOUS!


This should be an occasional stumbling, a slip into sin...Not living like a "PIG" a heathen, like the Stam trash, and wild bill life style suggests!

Repent for defending such trash! Guilty....Drew, Carol, Betty.....Defense of such trash is offensive to the cause of Christ!

One can live a Holy, separated life apart from sin.....Not that i have attained but i press on...You cannot live a "carnal" life, a sinful life and say grace will cover every thing because i said the Roman road years ago....Let this statement be a warning to you who believe that "satan's" lie!

You must be HOLY as HE is HOLY...! Wake up you that are asleep, separate yourselves from that lie that “no matter what you do, nor what you say, nor what you live like” GRACE will cover everything, Grace will NOT COVER A ROTTEN HEART Bill!...

Grace when applied to ones life is all that is needed for that initial sanctification, but then you must walk the walk have {FRUIT}: Grace is what initially saves you yes; what then!

Why is the gate narrow, and the path straight???????? WHY be FEW that find it???????


If your right Drew, why not sell all you have buy gospel tracts in every language in the world and drop them from airplanes???? SAYING the ROMAN Road; and at the end of the tract tell them that no matter what you do now "GRACE" will cover it???

Pig talk, hogwash; lying statements originated from the father of lies...satan!


Why does the LORD tell us to be Holy, why does Paul warn, that we will not escape the damnation of hell if we do the things the world does...fornication, murder, stealing, etc??????

Why?

Blind leaders of the blind, not only are you hindered from entering the kingdom of Heaven, you stop others with your lying false gospel. Makes me sick...like unto vomiting!

Day after day; perpetrating your filth and lies from satan and trying to teach you can live like a PIG or be a PIG and grace will pull you through!

Garbage.......at least wildbill is consistently living the false gospel, but Drew you and Carol flip back and forth like a fish out of water; neither consistent nor correct. Like wind changing with the tempest!

I have posted some bold things I see in the gospel, I never said one would go to hell for not keeping the Sabbath (on Fri eve to sat eve).
I never said that to be saved one must keep the law!
I never said that Yahushua “must” be used instead of Jesus to be saved!
The mystery is NOT a lie, don’t think I ever said that either, but some things that are taught as the mystery is a lie!

Esp. the misinformation of #8 I never said that retention of the law will be the guarantee of everlasting life!

YHWH will Judge the HEART of man, what is in your heart????


Things Bill constantly posts:


1That OSAS, is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.

Granted I do not see (2) two judgments, I think that all will stand at THE Judgment Day.
So if im wrong does that make me a legalist, or not a brother?


Im constantly misquoted, about the law, the commandments, etc…

The law is good, the law is perfect and I meditate on it day and night……is that legalism?/

Is the law of YHWH gone? Is the Gospel of Yahushua HaMashiach now different because Yahushua talked with and saved Paul?


Pigs love to roll around in mud puddles, but lambs have no business being near mud puddles! Therefore, if you claim to be a lamb, do what lambs do. Don't act like a pig. Lambs are humble and they like to stay clean. Lambs are most comfortable when they are laying on clean straw in a clean stable. But a pig will always return to the mud puddle, because pigs love mud! The mud puddle is home to a pig. And a clean stable with fresh pasture is home to a lamb because a true lamb hates filth! No true lamb would willfully roll in a mud puddle and no pig would be satisfied without a mud puddle. Neither does a shepherd attend to pigs. A shepherd attends to lambs because lambs are dependent on the shepherd. But pigs are solitary in nature. They would never stay in a "herd" because pigs care only for themselves. Likewise a pig would never follow a shepherd, because pigs are not followers, rather they are roamers, and they roam wherever their own hearts lead them. But a lamb follows. A lamb is dependent on a shepherd. A lamb loves his shepherd and recognizes the shepherds voice. A lamb obeys the shepherd's call. Let us all follow our shepherd, YHWH, by striving to follow all of His Laws, without deviating to the left or to the right, without adding, subtracting, or changing His Laws in any way!


Does this offend you? All of it of the part about striving to follow all of YHWH’s laws?

What’s wrong with that? You’re a former deputy Drew? Do you now teach to steal, murder, etc; because of grace?

Surely not! Let us not now SIN that GRACE may abound!

Carol its not in your heart to please YHWH?, do you not strive to be Holy and SIN NOT? Do you not think about YHWH’s law and try to please HIM?

Betty is it in your heart to “lay your life down, take up your cross and follow Yahushua?”

What about covetousness, can we love YHWH and not steal, not murder, and covet?????

Will grace cove a covetous heart, without conviction and repentance???

Wildb , let the LORD Yahushua Judge this man!

If the part above about the PIGS bother you then, perhaps you need space to repent!

For a sheep will follow Yahushua the shepherd, and will repent upon conviction. Brother Paul stated follow me as “I FOLLOW” Christ, the Messiah…NOT a different gospel; the same!

The wonderful (part of the mystery) mystery is that the gentiles were also to be grafted in! To THE Gospel!

The only good news (GOSPEL) which is that Yahushua is EVERLASTING LIFE! Paying the price for even the gentiles SIN!;

Part of the mystery were that we were GRAFTED in contrary to the vine; BEWARE the natural branches (Jew) can be reattached easier than the unnatural branch (gentiles)

This is my heart, I do not know how I can help any of the “leaders” here , I post this as a witness against, Them; and also for the lambs seeking the truth and the right way…..

Unless the Master Yahushua HaMashiach leads I will no longer post here.

My email is: barrykind@yahoo.com

I will correspond with as many as would comment.

YHWH Bless and keep the lambs; convert the pigs that would repent and rebuke those otherwise!

Love
Barry
Bondservant of Yahushua the Messiah and my Master

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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mudAEAPuLk

Open Our Eyes Lord


Open our eyes, Lord
We want to see Jesus,
To reach out and touch Him,
And say that we love Him.
Open our ears, Lord
And help us to listen.
Open our eyes, Lord
We want to see Jesus.

--------------------
That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mudAEAPuLk

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.
9That Pushing is a must.

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That is all.....

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Betty Louise
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Add pushing that we can't use the Name: Jesus,to the list of things I am sick of hearing. I can't imagine any good coming to someone pushing their legalism agenda. We are NOT interested. Get it through your thick skulls!!!!! Enough is enough.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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WildB
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In Old English, the 'J' was still pronounced like the German 'J,' i.e

Ya think!

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That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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Yeshua not Yahshua

becauseHElives

"Yahshua" is a mistransliteration by Sacred Name advocates to fit an erroneous interpretation of John 5:43. "Yeshua" is far more accurate. You have the accurate name in your profile.

If you choose to honor our Lord by using His Hebrew name, don't use "Yahshua". That isn't even a name...it's made up.

Proponents of the Yahshua form claim that the Messiah’s name was the same as Joshua’s, written vwhy or wvwhy (Strong’s #3091). The only problem is that neither of these Hebrew spellings of Joshua’s name can possibly be pronounced "Yahshua." The third letter in Joshua’s name (reading from right to left) is the letter vav (w) and a vav cannot be silent. The letter vav must be pronounced as either a "v" or an "o" or an "u." (In the case of Joshua, it takes an "o" sound, giving us "Ye-ho-SHU-a." Strong’s confirms this pronunciation.) For a name to be pronounced "Yahshua," it would have to be spelled [wv--hy, and no such name exists anywhere in the Hebrew Bible. You don’t have to just take my word for it, though. Dr. Danny Ben-Gigi says of the Yahshua form that "there is no such name in Hebrew" and that "people invented it to fit their theology."[1] Dr. Ben-Gigi is an Israeli and the former head of Hebrew programs at Arizona State University. He is the author of the book First Steps in Hebrew Prayers, and he designed and produced the "Living Israeli Hebrew" language-learning course. Dr. David Bivin, a Christian, says that the Yahshua form "is rooted in a misunderstanding."[2] Dr. Bivin is a renowned Hebrew scholar and teacher and author of Fluent Biblical Hebrew.

The English form Jesus is derived from the New Testament Greek name Ihsouß, pronounced "Yesous." According to Strong’s, Yesous (Strong’s #2424) is "of Hebrew origin" and can be traced back to Joshua’s Hebrew name, Yehoshua (#3091, [wvwhy). But how do we get the Greek Yesous from the Hebrew Yehoshua? Someone armed with nothing more than a Strong’s Concordance may have difficulty answering that question. Someone who reads the Bible in Hebrew, though, knows that the name Joshua sometimes appears in its shortened form, Yeshua (wvy). In Neh. 8:17 it is apparent even in English: "Jeshua the son of Nun." (The letter J was pronounced like a Y in Old English.) Strong does not tell the reader that the Greek Yesous is actually transliterated from this shortened Hebrew form, Yeshua, and not directly from the longer form Yehoshua.

The process from "Yehoshua" to "Jesus" looks like this:

1. Hebrew Yehoshua to Hebrew Yeshua

2. Hebrew Yeshua to Greek Yesous (Iesous)

3. Greek Yesous to English Jesus

There is no "sh" sound in Greek, which accounts for the middle "s" sound in Yesous. The "s" at the end of the Greek name is a grammatical necessity, to make the word declinable.

So where did the transliteration Yahshua come from? This form of the name can be traced back to the beginnings of the Sacred Name movement, a movement that grew out of the Church of God, 7th Day, in the late 1930s. I have in my files an article entitled, "A Brief History of the Name Movement in America" by L.D. Snow, a Sacred Name believer.[5] According to this article, "John Briggs and Paul Penn were the FIRST to pronounce and use the name Yahshua" (emphasis Snow’s). This was in 1936 and in 1937, the article states. No information is given about how Briggs and Penn came up with this (mis)translation.

Later Sacred Name literature appeals to the Messiah’s statement in John 5:43 as "proof" of the Yahshua form: "I am come in My Father’s name," He said. In the minds of Sacred Name believers, this means that "Yah," a shortened form of Yahweh, must appear in the name of the Son. However, the Messiah did not say "My name contains My Father’s name" or "My Father’s name must appear inside My name" or any such statement. He said absolutely nothing here about His own name. The only "name" mentioned here was the Father’s name. He said, "I am come in My Father’s name," which simply means that He was coming by His Father’s authority, on His Father’s behalf. If we take Yeshua’s statement "I am come in My Father’s name" to mean that His own name must contain the Father’s name, then we ourselves cannot do anything "in the Father’s name" unless our own personal name happens to contain the syllable "Yah." The folly of this interpretation is also evident if the same line of reasoning is applied to the rest of Yeshua’s statement: "…if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." If the logic of Sacred Name believers is applied to this half of the verse, it would be saying "a person’s name must contain his own name," which is meaningless. If, on the other hand, "in his own name" means "by his own authority," then the statement makes sense.

Why is the Yahshua form used by no one but Sacred Name believers and people who have been influenced by Sacred Name believers? Probably because no such name exists in the Hebrew Bible and, to my knowledge, no such name exists in any extra-Biblical Hebrew literature. It appears that Dr. Ben-Gigi is correct when he says that people invented the name Yahshua to fit their theology.

http://www.yashanet.com/library/Yeshua_or_Yahshua.htm

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
That Yahshua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.

again I never said that...I said Yahshua is His name and Jesus is not His name but a mistranslation...could not be anything close to His name because the letter "J" didn't come into existence until the year 1520 CE. The letter j is less than 500 years old.

The New Testament was NOT translated into Greek; it was WRITTEN in Greek.

That at the name of Jesus (iEsous G2424) every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and[things]in earth, and [things] under the earth. (Philippians 2:10)

 - In Old English, the 'J' was still pronounced like the German 'J,' i.e. it had a 'Y' sound as 'J' still has in German to this day. After 1066, the 'J' sound began to be hardened to the French 'J' which is the origin of the Modern English 'J'.

No Scripture Identifies Yeshua as Messiah

Yeshua people are trying to build a case with no proof from the New Testament. Again, the New Testament was not written in Hebrew but rather in Greek and translated directly into English for our English speaking society to read. So Almighty God wanted the known Greek speaking inhabited world at that time of the first century to know the name of Messiah, which brings salvation, healing and power over demons, to be "Iesous" (or Jesus in English) and not "Yeshua." If God wanted the JEWISH writers of the New Testament to use "Yeshua" they would have, BUT THEY DIDN'T. To say Yeshua means "salvation" is not a clear connection to the Savior from Nazareth. It doesn't identify the one who shed his blood on the cross of Calvary, rose from the dead and is coming back again, as the NT identifies Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus has the name that is above every name (Phil. 2:9). It, therefore, should be used unashamedly in our English speaking society in spite of all the lies and fabrications being spread around. It is also noteworthy to consider that Paul was a Hebrew of Hebrews (Phil. 3:5), yet wasn't off on some strange fictional concept that Iesous (Greek for the English equivalent Jesus) was inferior or of pagan roots like some people of our day that claim to believe in the Messiah of Christianity.

No Bible Verse Tells Us Messiah's Name Is Yeshua

I like to ask the Yeshua people the following: Would you please give us a Bible verse from the Hebrew Scriptures that tells us Messiah's name is Yeshua? None have ever done so or ever will since Yeshua is never found in the OT or NT in reference to Messiah. Messiah is never identified by name in the Hebrew Old Testament Scriptures.

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WildB
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Again you reiterate,

"unlike you I have never in the 8 years on this board ever deleted one post"

It is clear to all of your prideful, lawful faith and I assure you it is not a proof,

of righteousness.

OR

Eternal salvation.

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That is all.....

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[QUOTE] when born as a baby out of the womb, man has a heart that is in total rebellion to the Law of Yahweh...hates and opposes Yahweh.....

this is a true statment!

yes it is true there is a age of accountability but when anyone comes out of the womb he or she has the Adamic nature. A heart born in rebellion.
[/Q]

Sorry rebellion is learned.

Jeremiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD.

But the Bible does say...

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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quote:
when born as a baby out of the womb, man has a heart that is in total rebellion to the Law of Yahweh...hates and opposes Yahweh.....
this is a true statment!

yes it is true there is a age of accountability but when anyone comes out of the womb he or she has the Adamic nature. A heart born in rebellion.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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becauseHElives
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quote:
when born as a baby out of the womb, man has a heart that is in total rebellion to the Law of Yahweh...hates and opposes Yahweh.....


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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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becauseHElives
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I shall address these charges.

quote:

1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.

1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"

no what I said and say now is grace is not a license to sin...16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;



2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.

I have never once said that...and unlike you I have never in the 8 years on this board ever deleted one post, so anyone wanting to verify what I have said in the past can check it out.

what I have said is the Sabbath has not been changed to Sunday. There is only one day Yahweh blessed and in His word has told those who are called His people are to remember ...see Genesis 2:2 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. and Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.


3That Yahshua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.

again I never said that...I said Yahshua is His name and Jesus is not His name but a mistranslation...could not be anything close to His name because the letter "J" didn't come into existence until the year 1520 CE. The letter j is less than 500 years old.

I just choose to use His given name not the name the Roman Catholic wh0re gave Him.

I once was ignorant of His true name but once I learned I had been lied to about His name, I changed.


4That the Harpazo is a lie.

never said that either...I am very intently waiting and watching for His soon coming, keeping myself unspotted from this world ...2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

now I am not sure who is right pretrib or midtrib...I'm just living like it might be today!


I will answer the other 4 charges against me later .....

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
changed heart....

when born as a baby out of the womb, man has a heart that is in total rebellion to the Law of Yahweh...hates and opposes Yahweh.....


This is not Biblical.

I think just inherited sin.

If not,

Then Why does the Law have a age of accountability?

Jonah doubts that their repentance is genuine, and believing it was only a matter of time before they rebelled against God, he determined to pitch a tent outside of town so as to wait and watch it happen (Jonah 4:5). Since Jonah refused to answer God's question about whether he is right to be angry (4:4), God gave him a little object lesson to prompt him to respond. The Lord supplied the prophet with a sun-blocking gourd, and then took it away from him. Sadly, Jonah's reaction was not the same as Job's (Job 1:21), but rather mirrored the attitude of the foolish women of Job 2:9,10.

Like all sin, sinful anger must be checked or it will worsen. Jonah was angry enough to die when God spared Nineveh, and now he is angry enough to die because God took away his shade! (Jonah 4:5-9). Likewise if we allow ourselves to be sinfully angry over big things, it won't be long before we are sinfully angry over little things.

Asking the same question in Jonah 4:9 that he asked in Verse 5, God provoked a response from Jonah, in which the prophet declared he had a perfect right to be angry about the gourd that at first had shielded him from the desert sun, but then was taken away. Now that Jonah has taken the bait, God springs the trap on His wayward prophet, pointing out how He had "laboured" much in Nineveh, while Jonah had not expended the least bit of energy to produce the gourd. And yet while Jonah had pity on the gourd, he did not want God to have pity on Nineveh! Once the incongruity of this was pointed out to the seer, Jonah is left with nothing to say in his own defense.

Something should be said, however, about the many people in Nineveh that could not discern between their right hand and their left (4:11). These would include young children and the mentally retarded. God was saying to Jonah, in effect, "You want Me to destroy Nineveh because of the atrocities committed by the adults. But remember, Jonah, there are one hundred and twenty thousand innocent people in Nineveh who would perish along with the guilty," something God found repugnant (cf. Gen. 19:23-33).

If the reader object that these people, having inherited sin from Adam, were not "innocent," we would tend to agree, in light of verses like Psalm 51:5 and Psalm 58:3. However, our text points up the truth that there is an "age of accountability," and children who die before reaching it, and adults whose limited mental capacity never allows them to reach it, are "covered under the Blood," as Pastor Stam used to say. We see a symbol of this very thing when Ezekiel 45:20 states that the sacrifice of the priest is offered "for him that is simple."

We see more evidence of an age of accountability when the people of Israel left Egypt. We read that there was an entire generation among them "which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil" (Deut. 1:39). God made it clear that these children would not be held responsible for the rebellion of the adults, but would be allowed to enter the Promised Land. And so it is just sound Biblical hermeneutics to extrapolate from this that God does not hold children and the mentally impaired responsible for their sins.

This precious doctrine is what enabled David to assert with confidence concerning the child that he had lost, "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" (II Sam. 12:23). This beloved truth also enabled this writer to preside recently at the funeral of a darling one-year-old little girl and comfort her parents from the Word of God that their hearts would ache only until they are caught up together with their daughter in the clouds.

The lessons to be learned from a wayward prophet are many and varied. May we take them to heart as things that were written "for our learning" (Rom. 15:4), as we determine as never before to obey the Lord without question, to the infinite blessing of our soul, and to the souls of those about us.

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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changed heart....

when born as a baby out of the womb, man has a heart that is in total rebellion to the Law of Yahweh...hates and opposes Yahweh.....

but when man is Born Again , the Spirit of Yahweh changes the rebellious heart to a heart that as the Old Testament prophesied would be changed....Yahweh Spirit would write His Law upon the heart, changing the desires of the heart....

where there was in the unregenerate man no conflict ...now because a man has been Born Again and the Law is on and in the heart there is conflict.... 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

but as Paul states because I am Born Again ....

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

and then again...

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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Again you say, "I will follow after what Yahshua taught about salvation because He alone is the author and finisher of my faith.."

Is He really the finisher of your faith if you fall away short in your walk? Can you find the foreskin and reattach it?

The Apostle Paul nor the Bearen Bible Society Cult have never said "Yahshua" is not your Savior.

Again you say, "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ” 1 Corinthians 11:1"

But what does the Bible say?

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Sorry Im not very impressed with your example and your interpretation of the example of Christ.

I will Follow the Gospel of the uncircumcised committed to Paul as I follow Christ.

Not your,

The law/grace gospel.


1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.

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That is all.....

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
if your heart has not been changed it is impossible to be saved!

WildB, for sure the Gospel you teach is another Gospel from the Gospel Yahshua preached so from your understanding I am accursed , I'm just glad Yahshua is my Savior....not the Apostle Paul or the Bearen Bible Society Cult....

I will follow after what Yahshua taught about salvation because He alone is the author and finisher of my faith...even the Apostle Paul said follow me as I follow Christ!

Yahshua is the same in every "Dispensation", He is the same yesterday, today, forever amen....

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ” 1 Corinthians 11:1

You were not talking about a changed heart but a heart with the law imprinted on it for proof of salvation.

My statement was, "If you are not born of the Spirit by a personal faith in what Christ did on the cross, it is his righteousnesses remember not ours, then the law cannot be made known or imprinted on ones heart."

Your statement was, "When men are restored to perfection, the law of God will be written in their hearts (Jer. 31:33), and its spirit of love will permeate their whole being, and its retention will be their guarantee of everlasting life."

Lets let the baseball fans decide who teaches a different gospel.

The law/grace gospel.


1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.


[rapture]

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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if your heart has not been changed it is impossible to be saved!

WildB, for sure the Gospel you teach is another Gospel from the Gospel Yahshua preached so from your understanding I am accursed , I'm just glad Yahshua is my Savior....not the Apostle Paul or the Bearen Bible Society Cult....

I will follow after what Yahshua taught about salvation because He alone is the author and finisher of my faith...even the Apostle Paul said follow me as I follow Christ!

Yahshua is the same in every "Dispensation", He is the same yesterday, today, forever amen....

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ” 1 Corinthians 11:1

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Remember there are some here that think it is a cult to repeat the "Roman Road" and tell someone they are saved because they quoted those scriptures...

ENOUGH SAID!

[wave3]

It is clear to all what is required by the legal/grace gospel.

Becausehelives states "When men are restored to perfection, the law of God will be written in their hearts (Jer. 31:33), and its spirit of love will permeate their whole being, and its retention will be their guarantee of everlasting life."


1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.

This is that other gospel that Paul warns about and says will be accursed.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Rules, Policies, and Disclaimers

You may not promote any cult or false religions such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Scientology, Wicca, etc... If you do there will be no warning and you will be removed from this message board. This is not debatable.

( This should be amended to add the legal/grace gospel )

This is not a Catholic message board. Don't promote Roman Catholicism on this board. One needs only to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. He alone can save you and nothing else.

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That is all.....

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

call me a legalist....but if the Law is not written on your heart you have not been born of the Spirit !

If you are not born of the Spirit by a personal faith in what Christ did on the cross, it is his righteousnesses remember not ours, then the law cannot be made known or imprinted on ones heart.

Abraham Believed first what was required of him by God in the Dispensation of Promise then received circumcision of the flesh.

It was his Faith that God Honored. Please read the next text prayerfully my friend.

Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And remember what Paul said concerning his own "personal sanctification"...

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.


The Spirit works with each person in different ways, within Gods timing not yours, not mine.

So I guess to you seeing someone not at the pinnacle of greatness you have attained would consider them not babes or carnal but instead not even have been born of the Spirit at all.

This thinking is in great error on your part and very Pharisaical as it mater's to the present Dispensation of the Grace of God.

Some cannot take the FULL truth all at once.

I shall pray that the Spirit of God enlighten his word to you in his timing.

This will be done in Jesus name.

For as of this day it is clear to all you just don't get it.

[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Since we have been freed from the letter of the law by the death of Christ, he having fulfilled and settled our obligation, we have a new offer of life on a new condition, viz., if we walk after or strive to keep the spirit of the law. To such there is no condemnation. They may thus have life through Christ. The spirit of God's law is love. As Jesus and Paul taught, "Love is the fulfilling of the law." (Matt. 22:37,40, and Rom. 13:10.) We are as unable to fully keep the spirit of the law as Israel was, but we are only required to walk after or strive to keep it, and in so far as in our weakness we fail, the merit of Jesus supplies our deficiency.

It is then the spirit of the law (love) manifested in us, which, through Christ, gives or guarantees life. Even though that spirit be not fully developed, "he that has begun the good work in us is able to complete it." Our desire and effort to keep the very spirit of the law is reckoned as a perfect keeping of it, while our inability to do so is compensated for by the sacrifice of Christ. When men are restored to perfection, the law of God will be written in their hearts (Jer. 31:33), and its spirit of love will permeate their whole being, and its retention will be their guarantee of everlasting life. The letter of the law killeth, but the spirit of the law giveth life. "Thanks be unto God who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Cor. 15:57.)

call me a legalist....but if the Law is not written on your heart you have not been born of the Spirit !

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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GRACIOUS LAW

http://www.contra-mundum.org/essays/theonomy/Gracious.pdf

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That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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ox·y·mo·ron   

–noun

a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.”

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
It's like saying "bad goodness". It's an oxymoron.

Being a moron that needs oxy scub, I thank MY Lord that He, "JESUS" will not leave me in enemy hands if I fail in my CODE of CONDUCT.

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That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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It's like saying "bad goodness". It's an oxymoron.
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WildB
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You know what Im a discerning with this tread is that both the legalistic members have no problem at all posing stuff that adds scandalous names before grace and cloak it as a teaching.

fleshly "Grace"
Slezzy "Grace"
Spurious "Grace"

Hum.

spu·ri·ous Adjective
Synonyms:
adjective: false, sham, counterfeit, bogus, mock, phony, phoney, dummy, supposititious, fake, artificial
Not being what it purports to be; false or fake
separating authentic and spurious claims
(of a line of reasoning) Apparently but not actually valid
this spurious reasoning results in nonsense
(of offspring) Illegitimate

slea·zy Adjective /ˈslēzē/
Synonyms:
adjective: thin
sleazier comparative; sleaziest superlative
(of a person or situation) Sordid, corrupt, or immoral
(of a place) Squalid and seedy
a sleazy all-night cafe
(of textiles and clothing) Flimsy

Who thinks like this? That their 1st fleshly thought of the day is to add to Grace? Personally, I find it Slezzy with a spurious overtone and not keeping with the mission of this Free will-Grace opperated Board.

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That is all.....

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WildB
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Remember there are some here that think it is a cult to repeat the "Roman Road" and tell someone they are saved because they quoted those scriptures...

ENOUGH SAID!

[wave3]

It is clear to all what is required by the legal/grace gospel.


1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.

--------------------
That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Charles Hodge, following the Scriptures, makes a clear distinction between the different kinds of faith, (1) Speculative or dead faith, (2) temporary faith, (3) saving faith.' Robert Dabney differentiates, (1) Temporary faith, (2) historical faith, (3) miraculous faith, (4) saving faith.' The 'carnal Christian' teaching makes no allowance for these distinctions, it gives little or no recognition to the possibility of a spurious belief, instead it implies or assumes that all who say they 'invite Jesus into their lives' are in possession of saving faith. If these professing believers do not live and act like Christians, their teachers may well say that it is because they are not 'spiritual Christians'. The fact is they may not be true believers at all!


Either someone is born again or he isn't. There is no such thing as a temporary birth. "Temporary faith" does not reside in a regenerated heart.

quote:
Charles Hodge (born Dec. 27, 1797, Philadelphia, Pa., U.S. died June 19, 1878, Princeton, N.J.) was the principal of Princeton Theological Seminary between 1851 and 1878. He is considered to be one of the greatest exponents and defenders of historical Calvinism in America during the 19th century.

Wikipedia

Why does becauseHElives quote a Calvinist? Calvinism is opposed to almost everything he believes.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I did not mention one word of legalism...WildB did you bother to read my post ....

here is one point.....

your post speak nothing to the topic in question.....

3. Saving faith and spurious faith are not distinguished


The third major error is that this teaching does not distinguish between true, saving belief and the spurious belief which is mentioned in the following Scriptures: 'Many believed in his name ... But Jesus did not commit himself to them' John 2:23,24. 'Many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him' John 12:42,43. 'These have no root, which for a while believe' Luke 8:13. Simon Magus 'believed' and was baptized but his heart was 'not right in the sight of God' Acts 8:12-22. In other words, it was 'belief' without a changed heart and because this was Simon's condition Peter says he would perish unless he came to true repentance: he was 'in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity' (vs. 23). And the evidence that Simon Magus was indeed unsaved can be seen in his prayer. He, like all unregenerate people, was only concerned with the consequence of sin and made no request to be pardoned and cleansed from the impurity of sin. 'Pray ye,' he says to Peter, 'to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me'. Like the so-called 'carnal Christian' he wanted Jesus as a kind of hell-insurance policy but he did not ask for deliverance from sin!


In all these scriptural instances men 'believed'; they had 'faith', but it was not saving faith. And all 'carnal Christians' profess their faith but it is not always saving faith.


Charles Hodge, following the Scriptures, makes a clear distinction between the different kinds of faith, (1) Speculative or dead faith, (2) temporary faith, (3) saving faith.' Robert Dabney differentiates, (1) Temporary faith, (2) historical faith, (3) miraculous faith, (4) saving faith.' The 'carnal Christian' teaching makes no allowance for these distinctions, it gives little or no recognition to the possibility of a spurious belief, instead it implies or assumes that all who say they 'invite Jesus into their lives' are in possession of saving faith. If these professing believers do not live and act like Christians, their teachers may well say that it is because they are not 'spiritual Christians'. The fact is they may not be true believers at all!

Your mixing of text taken out of context and dispensation is a great sadness and proves nothing what your opinion states.

Please learn how to rightfully divide the word.

Now carefully read....


Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


This twisting of text by you has nothing what soever to do with the Carnal Christian that Paul talks about in Corinthians.

Please stop your sillyness.

It is clear to all what is required by the legal/grace gospel.


1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.

--------------------
That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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I did not mention one word of legalism...WildB did you bother to read my post ....

here is one point.....

your post speak nothing to the topic in question.....

3. Saving faith and spurious faith are not distinguished


The third major error is that this teaching does not distinguish between true, saving belief and the spurious belief which is mentioned in the following Scriptures: 'Many believed in his name ... But Jesus did not commit himself to them' John 2:23,24. 'Many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him' John 12:42,43. 'These have no root, which for a while believe' Luke 8:13. Simon Magus 'believed' and was baptized but his heart was 'not right in the sight of God' Acts 8:12-22. In other words, it was 'belief' without a changed heart and because this was Simon's condition Peter says he would perish unless he came to true repentance: he was 'in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity' (vs. 23). And the evidence that Simon Magus was indeed unsaved can be seen in his prayer. He, like all unregenerate people, was only concerned with the consequence of sin and made no request to be pardoned and cleansed from the impurity of sin. 'Pray ye,' he says to Peter, 'to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me'. Like the so-called 'carnal Christian' he wanted Jesus as a kind of hell-insurance policy but he did not ask for deliverance from sin!


In all these scriptural instances men 'believed'; they had 'faith', but it was not saving faith. And all 'carnal Christians' profess their faith but it is not always saving faith.


Charles Hodge, following the Scriptures, makes a clear distinction between the different kinds of faith, (1) Speculative or dead faith, (2) temporary faith, (3) saving faith.' Robert Dabney differentiates, (1) Temporary faith, (2) historical faith, (3) miraculous faith, (4) saving faith.' The 'carnal Christian' teaching makes no allowance for these distinctions, it gives little or no recognition to the possibility of a spurious belief, instead it implies or assumes that all who say they 'invite Jesus into their lives' are in possession of saving faith. If these professing believers do not live and act like Christians, their teachers may well say that it is because they are not 'spiritual Christians'. The fact is they may not be true believers at all!

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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Carnal ordinances make carnal Christians

It is clear to all what is required by the legal/grace gospel.


1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.

Think of the presumptuous, egotism of any man who thinks he can make the redemptive work of Christ more efficacious by his carnal ordinance. It is not always true, but generally it is, that carnal ordinances make carnal Christians.

THE TWENTY-EIGHTH CHAPTER OF ACTS . . .
THE GREAT COMMISSION . . . AND THE MYSTERY
AND SOME CONFUSED THEOLOGIANS
WE MIGHT WELL GIVE TO THIS MESSAGE THE INTERESTING TITLE
“SOME SAY THIS . . . AND . . . SOME THAT . . . WHO IS RIGHT?”

If you have not read the pamphlet of A. E. Bishop, entitled, “Tongues-Visions-Signs, Not God’s Order For Today”, by all means write to the Moody Bible Institute and procure a copy; for in that printed message you will find some valuable and helpful truth. Perhaps, like many sincere Christians, you have been puzzled and perplexed as you have read I Corinthians 12:28 and I Corinthians 12:8 to 11, that God put into the Church miracle-workers, healings, diversities of tongues, discerning of spirits and other gifts of the Holy Spirit, and you have asked the question, “where are they?” Those Corinthians were carnal, divided, puffed up, gluttons at the Lord’s Table, some of them said there was no resurrection of the dead, they defrauded one another. But they exercised all of those sign-gifts mentioned in the twelfth chapter of I Corinthians. How many Christians have wondered why the most carnal saints of Paul’s day exercised these miraculous gifts, whereas not even the most faithful, spiritual saint to-day exercises any one of these gifts?

There must be an explanation. Have you not asked yourself the question, why Christians to-day are not to follow the order in Acts 19:3 to 8, where we learn that believers were baptized with water then hands were laid on them, then they received the Holy Spirit, then they spoke with tongues; then Paul healed with handkerchiefs and aprons, sick people? There we have the last Scripture Record of water baptism. Why is it that Christians are holding on to water baptism to-day and have given up the imposition of hands for Holy Spirit baptism, speaking with tongues, healing, visions and jail deliverances, angelic visitations and raising the dead, as we find recorded all through the Book of Acts?

Do you know of any sound Bible exegesis that will explain the absence of tongues, visions, signs and healings from God’s spiritual program to-day that will not relegate the water ceremony to the same former period? Can you answer this question, “which one of the six or more baptisms of the Four Gospels and Acts is the one baptism of Ephesians 4:5?” When the outstanding Fundamentalist of Minneapolis gave over his auditorium for a fellow-preacher to bless handkerchiefs to apply to the sick for their physical healing, was he not consistent? Was he not just as Scriptural as when he baptized believers? Have I not just as much right to lay hands on the sick and raise the dead as any other preacher has to bury people in a tank of water? Do not answer by tradition, but by the Word of God rightly divided. Now referring to Mr. Bishop’s printed message, it has been published and distributed by the Moody Colportage Association for years. They have printed six or seven editions, and they never did a better work to help set Christians straight. In order that they might increase the sales of this pamphlet they have printed on the front page the unreserved endorsement of Dr. C. I. Scofield. You “Scofield Bible men” take note of this teaching of Dr. Scofield concerning a most radical change that took place in God’s spiritual program after Acts 28:28, and when you hear other preachers speak against Dr. Scofield’s teaching, go to Dr. Scofield’s defense, inasmuch as he is not here to defend himself. Note his teaching, to which we refer:
“The sign-gifts of I Corinthians 12 were operative only during the Book of Acts period.

“A careful study of the Epistles, especially of the latest Epistles of Paul, WHICH GIVE
THE NORMAL COURSE OF THE CHURCH DURING THE PRESENT DISPENSATION, would dismount all from their hobbies, eliminate the last vestige of Judaism from their lives.”
“After repeated study of the EPISTLES WRITTEN AFTER PAUL’S ARRIVAL AT ROME, I am convinced that in them is found a curative teaching for all of the present day delusions and fanaticisms found among many of the most sincere saints in the Church.” “There is no foundation in the Word of God for the prevailing popular doctrine of Divine
healing.”

Some one has said, it is as difficult to take the last vestige of Judaism, hobbies, fanaticisms and delusions away from religious Christians as it is to take an all-day sucker from a baby. But Dr. Scofield offers to Christians the only sane, sensible principle of Bible study that will give us the normal course of the Church in this present dispensation, the only answer to the
wild fanaticism of the Pentecostalists. But many Christians find the remedy worse than the disease, because they know that with the last vestige of Judaism must go the religious water baptism of the same period during which signs, visions, tongues and healings were in order.

MR. WILLIAM R. NEWELL VERSUS DR. C. I. SCOFIELD
One of Chicago’s pastors is inviting to his pulpit for a series of Bible messages Mr. William R. Newell, beginning June 7, 1942. He is bringing Mr. Newell here to oppose the teaching of Dr. Scofield, as outlined above. In the pastor’s invitation letter he has written: “During the opening days of his visit, Mr. Newell will discuss the fallacy and danger of the No-Baptism and Ultra-Dispensational teaching as well as the teaching that Paul’s real ministry to the Gentiles did not fully materialize until after the event of Acts 28:28. Mr. Newell has had a burden on his heart to set believer’s straight, and to warn against this dangerous doctrine.”

I do not know of any man who needs to be set straight on these very things any more than
does William R. Newell, and I would like to have an opportunity in company with a number of
Christians to go into the Scriptures with Mr. Newell. In the Town-Hall meetings and other
similar gatherings where interesting and important subjects are discussed, the presiding officer
permits the audience to hear both sides of the question. How profitable it would prove, for the
edification of saints, if the pastor, who has invited Mr. Newell, would permit the people to hear the answer to Mr. Newell’s faulty dispensationalism, and faulty it is.

We have recently printed two books, one entitled, “Bullingerism, The Preacher’s Scarecrow”, and the other “Why Did Not The Twelve Apostles Do What The Lord Jesus Told Them To Do . . . Or Did They?” Many of our outstanding Fundamentalists will surely give an account to the Lord for keeping the younger preachers in darkness concerning the most blessed truth for saints in all the Bible. They bluff, and intimidate, and silence them, and even drive them away from the study of the blessed Pauline truth with the cry of “Bullingerism.” Then to think of the unjust and ungracious accusations they bring against the twelve apostles, who they declare did not do what they were told to do because of their prejudice, indifference, ignorance or disobedience. What an indictment against those Spirit-filled men of God, and the indictment is true, if these confused theologians are Scripturally correct concerning their teaching that the dispensation of the mystery began with the twelve apostles and Pentecost.

THE RECOVERY OF TRUTH

Some time ago a speaker at the Moody Founder’s Week Bible Conference declared that three great Bible truths were lost before the apostle John died. First, the truth concerning the mystery and the Divine unity of Ephesians, chapters three and four, was lost.Second the blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ, was lost. Third, the great, foundation truth, “Justification by faith”, was lost. Then, said the speaker, “two of these great truths have been recovered, Justification by faith’, by Martin Luther and others: ‘the blessed hope’, by John Darby and others.” “But”, said the speaker, “the wonderful truth of Ephesians concerning ‘the mystery and the Divine unity’ has not yet been recovered.” Sad to say, this dear man of God, since that time has done little or nothing to help in the important task of recovering, or uncovering, this most wonderful truth for saints in all of the Bible.

Paul suffered untold agony, even as an evil doer in jail for making known this glorious and blessed truth. He was hated and persecuted even unto death by his religious enemies, because the truth that was revealed to him and by him to others was the deathblow to their undispensational religion and Judaism in the program of grace. The same devil, who caused Paul’s imprisonment by the hands of religious men, is still viciously and unceasingly opposed to the truth for which Paul was Christ’s prisoner for the Gentiles. It was in connection with Satan’s hatred for this Divine truth that Paul declared that Christians wrestle not against flesh and blood. Ephesians 6:12 to 20.
Note Ephesians 6:19 and 20:
“And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL, for which I am an ambassador IN BONDS; that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.” Paul was in jail for telling a SECRET; God’s SECRET, “which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God.” Ephesians 3:9. “The MYSTERY, which hath been hid from ages and from generations.” Colossians 1:26.
Note again Paul’s sincere desire that this wonderful MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL be made known to others. We quote Colossians 4:3 and 4: “Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance to speak the MYSTERY OF CHRIST, for which I am also IN BONDS: That I may make it manifest as I ought to speak.” In Ephesians 3:1 and Ephesians 3:9 we read: “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles.”
“And to make all see what is the dispensation of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God.” The Lord’s servants, who are messengers of grace, are supposed to be stewards of the mysteries of God. I Corinthians 4:1 to 4. They may disagree among themselves in their dispensational divisions of the Scriptures, but there is absolutely not a single excuse for one single dissenting voice, that the apostle Paul was in the jail at Rome for disclosing to others a distinctive message and spiritual program, which the Lord in heaven revealed to Paul, a message and program which had never been revealed to any servant of the Lord before it was revealed to Paul. This leads to the positive and dogmatic statement, that Paul was not in jail for preaching the gospel, recorded in I Corinthians 15:1 to 4. We learn that that gospel was “according to theScriptures.” All of that was in fulfillment of prophecy. Acts 13:29 and 30. But Paul was in prison for a ministry concerning which all of Israel’s prophets were silent. Note the words of Dr. H. A. Ironside: “The Mystery of the Church, as the Body of Christ, was never made known in Old Testament times, nor yet in the days when our Lord was on the earth. The Divine method of making it known was by a special revelation to the apostle Paul. It was a ministry committed unto Paul to pass on to the saints.”
Many harsh and ungracious accusations and much unpleasant controversy would have been avoided, had the servants of the Lord prayed the prayer of Ephesians 1:16 to 23 and learned a very important fact, the fact that there is a great difference between the saving GOSPEL for sinners, ‘according to the Scriptures’ and the “Mystery of the Gospel” for saints, which is not ‘according to the Scriptures’, but was hid from the holy men who were moved by the Holy Spirit to give us the more sure Word of Prophecy. Let us not follow the erring brethren who do not know the difference between the gospel for the sinners and the gospel for the saints. When the believer is saved by the gospel, “Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, was buried, and was raised again according to the Scriptures”, he immediately becomes a saint and a member of the only true Bible Church which God recognizes for this present age of grace, the Joint-Body of Ephesians 3:6. When the believer is saved God has on deposit for him unlimited spiritual blessings in the heavenlies. As we inventory or itemize the blessings of Ephesians 1:3, for the
saints, we know that the gospel means every spiritual benefit and blessing which the believer has in Christ. Therefore, no sane, spiritual, intelligent student of the Scriptures will be so foolish as to say, there is only one gospel. The gospel of I Corinthians 15:1 to 4 differs from the
Mystery of the gospel in Ephesians 6:19 and 20.
Perhaps, you have read the monthly magazine, “The Revelation”, published by an outstanding Fundamentalist in Philadelphia. Some time ago he confessed that after years of Bible study he had just been taught by the Holy Spirit, from the study of Romans 15:8, Romans 15:16 and Romans 16:25 and 26, that the risen Christ gave to the apostle Paul a message different from the message which Christ on earth had preached.

SOME FUNDAMENTALISTS AND THE MYSTERY

Some time ago a preacher asked one of the outstanding Fundamentalists in Chicago why he did not obey Ephesians 3:9 and preach the mystery. His answer was, that he did not know what “The MYSTERY” is. In a sense he is the workman who needs to be ashamed, but if he had made the confession of his ignorance and disobedience in humility and would cease his condemnation of men of God who are doing what he, as a steward of the mysteries of God, should be doing, the Holy Spirit might reveal to him the most blessed truth for saints in all the Scriptures. His confession should make him very humble and cause him to ask his people and other Christian workers to pray that the eyes of his understanding might be enlightened that he might understand the hope of His calling, the one hope of Ephesians 4:4 and 5. And right here I throw out this challenge, show me one Christian worker or Bible teacher, who understands the One Hope and the One Body until he understands the One Baptism of the same verses. No man contends for the One Faith of Ephesians 4:4 and 5, who does not contend for the One Body and the One Baptism. No one, who substitutes human baptism for the Divine baptism of Ephesians 4:5, is doing one thing, or can do one thing, to obey Ephesians 3:9.

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That is all.....

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"If you read 1 Corinthians, Paul is rebuking them for being carnal, not condoning it."

Many who regularly occupy church pews, fill church rolls, and are intellectually acquainted with the facts of the gospel never strike one blow for Christ. They seem to be at peace with his enemies. They have no quarrel with sin and, apart from a few sentimental expressions about Christ, there is no biblical evidence that they have experienced anything of the power of the gospel in their lives. Yet in spite of the evidence against them, they consider themselves to be just what their teachers teach them -- that they are 'Carnal Christians'. And as carnal Christians they believe they will go to heaven, though perhaps not first-class, and with few rewards.


That something is seriously wrong in lives which reveal such features will readily be admitted by most readers of these pages; no argument is needed to prove it. But the most serious aspect of this situation is too often not recognized at all. The chief mistake is not the carelessness of these church-goers, it is the error of their teachers who, by preaching the theory of 'the carnal Christian', have led them to believe that there are three groups of men, -- the unconverted man, the 'carnal Christian' and the 'spiritual Christian'.


My purpose in this booklet is to argue that this classification is wrong and to set out the positive, historic, and biblical answer to this 'carnal Christian' teaching. The argument from Church history is not unimportant, for it is a fact that less than two- hundred years ago this teaching was unknown in the churches of North America, but I am concerned to rest my case on an honest statement of the teaching of the Bible. I have written after study, private meditation and prayer, and after using many of the old respected commentaries of another day, but my appeal is to the Word of God and it is in the light of that authority that I ask the reader to consider all that follows.


I must also confess that I am writing as one who, for many years, held and taught the teaching which I am now convinced is erroneous and which has many dangerous implications. As one who has deep respect for many who hold this position, I am not going to attack personalities, but to deal with principles, and with the interpretation of the particular passages of Scripture on which the teaching is built.


In matters of controversy it must ever be kept in mind that a Christian's experience may be genuine even though his understanding of divine truth is tainted with error or ignorance. The opposite is also possible -- a man's intellectual understanding may be good and his experience poor. I pray that if I am in error on this or any other doctrine I shall be corrected before I leave this world. I trust I am willing ever to be a learner of divine truth.


I know that one of my motives is the same as that of many who hold this erroneous view, namely, to advance biblical holiness and to seek to 'adorn the doctrine of God our Savior'.


To accomplish my purpose it is of the greatest importance that the whole subject should be set on a proper foundation. I do not want to make a caricature of the view of others and then demonstrate success by tearing it apart. I shall also seek to avoid disproportionate and one-sided statements. The danger that we may 'darken counsel by words without knowledge' is still with us. I pray that this effort will elicit truth and that the existence of varied opinions will lead us all to search the Scriptures more, to pray more, and to be diligent in our endeavors to learn what is 'the mind of the Spirit'.


My greatest difficulty will be to achieve brevity because this subject is so closely related to, and interwoven with the main doctrine of the Bible, particularly with justification and sanctification, the chief blessings of the new covenant. The subject therefore involves a right understanding of what the gospel really is and what it does to a person when applied efficaciously by the Spirit. Our view of this matter will also affect our judgment of the relationship of the Ten Commandments to the Christian in the area of sanctification, and of the biblical doctrine of assurance.


Some of the fundamental questions which need to be faced are these:


1. Are we sanctified passively, that is, 'by faith' only, without obedience to the law of God and Christ? If sanctification is passive -- a view represented by the slogan 'Let go and let God' -- then how do we understand such apostolic statements as 'I fight', 'I run', 'I keep under my body', 'let us cleanse ourselves', 'let us labor', 'let us lay aside every weight'? Surely these statements do not express a passive condition, nor do they indicate that by one single act we may possess the experience of 'victory' and thus become spiritual and mature Christians.


2. Does an appeal to the so-called 'carnal Christian' to become a 'spiritual Christian' minimize the real conversion experience by magnifying a supposed second experience, by whatever name it may be called -- 'higher life', 'deeper life', 'Spirit-filled life', 'triumphant living', 'receiving Christ as Lord, and not merely as Savior', and so on? The words we read in 2 Corinthians 5:17, 'Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new', do not refer to a second experience but rather to what happens when any real conversion occurs.


3. Has the 'spiritual Christian' finished growing in grace? If not, what is he to be called as he continues to grow in grace? Do we need to make yet another class whose members are the 'super-spiritual Christians'?


4. Who is to decide who the carnal Christians are, and exactly what standard is to be used in determining this? Do the 'spiritual Christians' decide who the 'carnal Christians' are? Does a church or preacher decide where the line is to be drawn that divides the two classes or categories? Since all Christians have sin remaining in them, and since they sin every day, what degree of sin or what particular sins classify a person as a 'carnal Christian'?


5. Do not all Christians sometimes act like natural men in some area of their lives?


6. Do not the inward sins, such as envy, malice, covetousness, lasciviousness (which includes immorality on the mental level) demonstrate carnality as much as do the outward and visible manifestations of certain other sins?


In Romans 8:1-9 there is a division stated, but it is not between carnal and spiritual Christians. It is a division between those who walk after the flesh (the unregenerate) and those who walk after the Spirit (they that are Christ's). There is no third category.


Again, in Galatians 5:17-24 we have only two classes or categories -- those that do the works of the flesh and those that are led by the Spirit. There is no third or fourth class or group.


My purpose, then, in these pages is to contend that the division of Christians into two groups or classes is unbiblical. I want also to show the dangerous implications and present-day results of this teaching.


The interpretation that I will seek to establish is a result of studying the proven and respected commentators of former days, such as, Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, John Gill, and John Calvin; and theologians such as Charles Hodge (of the old Princeton Seminary), James P. Boyce (founder of the first Southern Baptist Seminary), Robert L. Dabney (the great theologian of old Union Seminary, Virginia) and James H. Thornwell (distinguished Southern theologian who was Professor of Theology at Columbia, South Carolina). I have also examined the writings of John Bunyan and searched the old Confessions and Catechisms, such as The Heidelberg Catechism, and Westminster Confession (that mother of all Confessions), the Baptist Confession of 1689 (The London Confession, later known as the Philadelphia Confession), and the Declaration of Faith of the Southern Baptist Church.


In all these sources there is not one trace of the belief that there are three classes of men. All of them have much to say about carnality in Christians, and about the biblical doctrine of sanctification and its relationship to justification, but there is no hint of the possibility of dividing men into 'unregenerate', 'carnal' and 'spiritual' categories. If the sources I have named had come across the 'carnal Christian' theory, I believe that with one voice they would have warned their readers, 'Be not carried away with divers and strange doctrines' (Hebrews 13: 9).


I confess that I take up my pen in this controversy with deep sorrow. Although the teaching that I wish to expose is so relatively new in the church, it is held by so many fine Christians, and taught by so many able and respected schools of the present day, that I can only approach my present undertaking with caution and anxiety.


We live in a day when there are so many books and such a variety of teaching on the subject of the Christian life that Christians are 'tossed to and fro', and liable to be 'carried about by every wind of doctrine' (Ephesians 4:14). There is also the Athenian love of novelty and a distaste for the old, well-tested, and beaten paths of our forefathers. This excessive love of the new leads to an insatiable craving after any teaching which is sensational and exciting, especially to the feelings. But the old paths lead to a 'meek and quiet spirit' which the apostle Peter commends: 'But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price' (I Peter 3: 4).

The Issue in Controversy

At a church service that I attended recently, the preacher, a sincere minister, was expounding 1 Corinthians chapter 3, and he said to a large congregation, 'Now after you become a Christian you have another choice -- either to grow in grace, follow the Lord and become a spiritual Christian, or to remain a babe in Christ and live like natural men.' He used 1 Corinthians 3: 1 -- 4 to state that there were three categories of men -- the natural man, the spiritual man, and the carnal man. He described the carnal man as being like the natural man who was unconverted.


This is the essence of the 'carnal Christian' teaching. One reason why it is so widespread is that it has been popularized for many years in the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible. A statement from these notes will indicate the precise nature of the teaching: 'Paul divides men into three classes: "Natural" i.e. the Adamic Man, unrenewed through the new birth; "Spiritual" i.e. the renewed man as Spirit-filled and walking in the Spirit in full communion with God; "Carnal", "fleshly", i.e. the renewed man who, walking "after the flesh", remains a babe in Christ." (Scofield Reference Bible, pp. 1213, 1214.)


It is very important to observe the two main things in this Scofield note. First, the division of men into three classes; second, we are told that one of these classes of men comprises the 'carnal', the 'fleshly', 'the babe(s) in Christ', 'who walk after the flesh'. To 'walk' implies the bent of their lives; their leaning or bias is in one direction, that is, towards carnality.


We ought not to miss three very salient and important facts about the teaching:


First, we note again that it divides all men into three classes or categories. With this fact none of its proponents disagree, though they may present it differently and apply it differently.


Second, one class or category is set out as containing the 'Christian' who 'walks after the flesh'. The centre of his life is self, and he is the same as the unrenewed man as far as the bent of his life is concerned.


Third, all those who accept this view use 1 Corinthians 3: 1-4 to support it. Consequently, if it can be established that the preponderance of Scripture teaches only two classes or categories of men -- regenerate and unregenerate, converted and unconverted, those in Christ and those outside of Christ -- the 'carnal Christian' teaching would be confronted with an insurmountable objection. It would be in conflict with the whole emphasis of Scripture and of the New Testament in particular.
Before I turn to some of the errors and dangers of the 'carnal Christian' teaching it may be wise to indicate what I am not saying.


In this discussion of the 'carnal Christian' theory I am not overlooking the teaching of the Bible about sin in Christians, about babes in Christ, about growth in grace, about Christians who back-slide grievously, and about the divine chastisement which all Christians receive.


I acknowledge that there are babes in Christ. In fact there are not only babes in Christ, but there are different stages of 'babyhood' in understanding divine truth and in spiritual growth.


I also recognize that there is a sense in which Christians may be said to be carnal but I must add that there are different degrees of carnality. Every Christian is carnal in some area of his life at many times in his life. And in every Christian 'the flesh lusteth against the Spirit' (Gal. 5:17).


All the marks of Christianity are not equally apparent in all Christians. Nor are any of these marks manifest to the same degree in every period of any Christian's life. Love, faith, obedience, and devotion will vary in the same Christian in different periods of his Christian experience; in other words, there are many degrees of sanctification.


The Christian's progress in growth is not constant and undisturbed. There are many hills and valleys in the process of sanctification; and there are many stumblings, falls and crooked steps in the process of growth in grace.


There are examples in the Bible of grievous falls and carnality in the lives of true believers. Thus we have the warnings and the promises of temporal judgment and of chastisement by our heavenly Father.


These truths are all acknowledged and are not the point of this present discussion. The question we have to consider is: Does the Bible divide men into three categories? This is the issue at the heart of the 'carnal Christian' teaching.

The teaching that I am opposing involves nine serious errors:


1. The misuse of I Corinthians 3


First: This 'carnal Christian' doctrine depends upon a wrong interpretation and application of 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, 'And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ... are ye not carnal?' To understand the true meaning of these words it should be remembered that 1 Corinthians is not primarily a doctrinal epistle. Like all Scripture it contains doctrine, but it was not written -- as was the Epistle to the Romans -- to lay doctrinal foundations. Paul's immediate concern in writing this Epistle was to deal with practical problems in a young church. In the third chapter, and earlier, he is dealing with the danger of division arising out of a wrong esteem for those from whom they heard the gospel. They were looking at second causes and forgetting the God to whom alone all glory belongs. Instead of saying, 'We are Christ's disciples' and recognizing their union in him, they were forming parties and saying, 'We are Paul's for he founded the church in our city'; or 'Apollos is more eloquent than Paul and he edifies us more'; or, 'We are of Peter'. Thus opposing parties were set up.


It is important to see that the whole context is dealing principally with this one problem of unwholesome division. However, it has a common root with all the other problems in 1 Corinthians -- the defrauding of one by another, the disorder at the Lord's Table, and so on. All the problems were the result of carnality, the outcome of that remaining principle of sin in all believers which Paul describes in Romans 7:2I-23: "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."


In endeavoring to understand how Paul thinks of those he addresses in 1 Corinthians 3 we must bear in mind the designation he gives to them in chapter 1. He says they are 'sanctified in Christ Jesus', they are recipients of 'the grace of God', enriched by Christ 'in all utterance, and in all knowledge' (1:2-5). They are rebuked in chapter 3, not for failing to attain to privileges which some Christians attain to, but for acting, despite their privileges, like babes and like the unregenerate in one area of their lives.


This is very different from saying that the Apostle here recognizes the existence of a distinct group of Christians who can be called 'carnal'. When Paul comes to speak of classes, he knows only two, as is clear in chapter 2 of this same Epistle where he divides men into 'natural' and 'spiritual', and says, 'But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man' (1 Cor. 2:14-15). Under the term natural the Apostle includes all those persons who are not partakers of the Spirit of God. If the Spirit of God has not given to them a new and higher nature then they remain what they are by their natural birth, namely, natural men.


The spiritual may be but babes in grace and babes in knowledge. Their faith may be weak. Their love may be in its early bud, their spiritual senses may be but little exercised, their faults may be many; but if 'the root of the matter' is in them and if they have passed from death unto life -- passed out of the region of nature into that which is beyond nature -- Paul puts them in another class. They are all spiritual men although in some aspects of their behavior they may temporarily fail to appear as such.


Certainly these Christians at Corinth were imperfectly sanctified, as indeed are all Christians to a greater or lesser degree. But Paul is not saying that they were characterized by carnality in every area of their lives. He is not expounding a general doctrine of carnality but reproving a specific out-cropping of carnality in one certain respect. When Paul does state a foundational truth respecting the position of all Christians it is in such words as, 'If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature', and for all who are 'in Christ' it is also true that, 'old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new' (2 Cor. 5:17). There is no place for two classes of Christians in Paul's letter to the church at Corinth, and indeed no place for it anywhere in the teaching of Scripture. To interpret 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 in such a way as to divide men into three classes is to violate a cardinal rule for the interpretation of Scripture, namely, that each single passage must be interpreted in the light of the whole. It was a wise saying of one of the church fathers, 'If you have one Scripture only on which to base an important doctrine or teaching you are most likely to find, on close examination, that you have none'.


2. New covenant blessings are separated


Second: The 'carnal Christian' teaching divides the two basic blessings of the new covenant because it denies that one of them is experienced by all true Christians. Let me point out how basic the covenant is to Christianity. Jesus was the mediator of the new covenant -- Hebrews 8:6-10: 'But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises'. The New Testament preachers were ministers of the new covenant -- 1 Corinthians 3:5, 6: 'Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament (A.S.V. new covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.'


Every time we come to the Lord's table we are reminded of the blessings of the new covenant -- Luke 22: 20, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood...'


These facts are enough to establish the importance of the new covenant. But what are the two blessings of the new covenant? The answer is clearly seen in many scriptural statements:
'Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah ... I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts ... I will forgive their iniquity, and will remember their sin no more'(Jeremiah 31:31-34).


'For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them' (Ezekiel. 36: 24-27).


'Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more' (Hebrews 10:15-17).


It is important to note that this is one covenant with two inseparable parts -- the forgiveness of sins and a changed heart. When a sinner is reconciled to God something happens in the record of heaven, the blood of Christ covers his sins. Thus, the first blessing is the forgiveness of sins. But at the same time something happens on earth in the heart, a new nature is given.


From the above Scriptures we also learn that Christ purchased the benefits and blessings of the new covenant. And the Epistle to the Hebrews reminds us that the gospel which the apostles preached as the gospel of Christ was the gospel of the new covenant. Therefore, whatever else sinners may receive when they are savingly called by the gospel, they must come into the primary blessings of the new covenant, namely, the forgiveness of sins and a new heart.


Well, what is the forgiveness of sins? It is an essential part of the justification of a man before God. And what is a new heart? It is nothing less than sanctification begun. But the 'carnal Christian' teaching appeals to those who are supposed to be justified, as though a new heart and life are optional. Sanctification is spoken of as though it can be subsequent to the forgiveness of sins and so people are led to believe that they are justified even though they are not being sanctified!
The truth is that we have no reason to believe that Christ's blood covers our sins in the record of heaven if the Spirit has not changed our hearts on earth. These two great blessings are joined together in the one covenant. The working of the Spirit and the cleansing of Christ's blood are inseparably joined in the application of God's salvation. Hence the teaching which calls for an act of submission or surrender (or whatever else it may be called) subsequent to conversion in order that the convert may live the spiritual life, cuts the living nerve of the new covenant. It separates what God has joined together.


3. Saving faith and spurious faith are not distinguished


The third major error is that this teaching does not distinguish between true, saving belief and the spurious belief which is mentioned in the following Scriptures: 'Many believed in his name ... But Jesus did not commit himself to them' John 2:23,24. 'Many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him' John 12:42,43. 'These have no root, which for a while believe' Luke 8:13. Simon Magus 'believed' and was baptized but his heart was 'not right in the sight of God' Acts 8:12-22. In other words, it was 'belief' without a changed heart and because this was Simon's condition Peter says he would perish unless he came to true repentance: he was 'in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity' (vs. 23). And the evidence that Simon Magus was indeed unsaved can be seen in his prayer. He, like all unregenerate people, was only concerned with the consequence of sin and made no request to be pardoned and cleansed from the impurity of sin. 'Pray ye,' he says to Peter, 'to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me'. Like the so-called 'carnal Christian' he wanted Jesus as a kind of hell-insurance policy but he did not ask for deliverance from sin!


In all these scriptural instances men 'believed'; they had 'faith', but it was not saving faith. And all 'carnal Christians' profess their faith but it is not always saving faith.


Charles Hodge, following the Scriptures, makes a clear distinction between the different kinds of faith, (1) Speculative or dead faith, (2) temporary faith, (3) saving faith.' Robert Dabney differentiates, (1) Temporary faith, (2) historical faith, (3) miraculous faith, (4) saving faith.' The 'carnal Christian' teaching makes no allowance for these distinctions, it gives little or no recognition to the possibility of a spurious belief, instead it implies or assumes that all who say they 'invite Jesus into their lives' are in possession of saving faith. If these professing believers do not live and act like Christians, their teachers may well say that it is because they are not 'spiritual Christians'. The fact is they may not be true believers at all!


4. The omission of repentance


A fourth flaw in the 'carnal Christian' teaching lies in its virtual exclusion of repentance from the conversion experience. This is implied by the suggestion that the 'carnal Christian' has not changed in practice but lives and acts just like the natural man. This teaching is obviously set forth in the diagram given above where self is still on the throne in the case of those in the second group. But thus to suggest that repentance, including a changed attitude to sin, is not an essential part of conversion is a very grave error. It is to depart from the apostolic gospel. No one who so minimizes the necessity of repentance can say with Paul, 'I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ' (Acts 20: 20, 21).


John Cotton, one of the Puritan leaders of New England, was right when he wrote: 'There is none under a covenant of grace that dare allow himself in any sin; for if a man should negligently commit any sin, the Lord will school him thoroughly and make him sadly to apprehend how he has made bold with the treasures of the grace of God. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid: None that has a portion in the grace of God dareth therefore allow himself in sin; but if through strength of temptation he be at any time carried aside, it is his greatest burden'.
5. Wrong teaching on assurance


In the fifth place the three-class theory is prone to give assurance to those who were never really converted. When a person professes to belong to Christ and yet lives like the world, how do we know that his profession is genuine? How do we know it is not genuine? We don't! There are always two possibilities: he may be a true Christian in a condition of back-sliding, or it is quite possible he was never savingly united to Christ. Only God knows. Therefore when we speak of a back-slider two errors must be avoided: (1) Saying unequivocally that he is not a Christian; (2) Saying unequivocally that he is a Christian. The fact is that we do not know, we cannot know
The Bible certainly teaches that to make men consider they are Christians when in reality they are not is a great evil, and insofar as the 'carnal Christian' theory allows for a whole category of 'Christians' whose hearts are not surrendered in obedience to Christ, its tendency is to promote that very evil. Nothing could be more dangerous. Lost, self-deceived souls who should be crying out to God for that supernatural change which is made known to themselves and to the world by a changed heart and life are often found hiding comfortably behind this very theory. As long as they believe it they will never seek a real salvation. Although they profess to hold evangelical truth their position is far worse than that of natural men who know that they are not converted!


The 'carnal Christian' teaching ignores much biblical teaching on the doctrine of assurance, especially those Scriptures which show that Christian character and conduct have a bearing on our assurance. The short First Epistle of John was written in order that those who believe may know that they have eternal life; that is, may know that they are born of God (5.13). Throughout the Epistle John stresses the marks that accompany the new birth (3:9; 5:18). He shows that a man born again is not at home in the realm of sin, and that disobedience to God's commandments cannot be the bent of a Christian's life, as the 'carnal Christian' teaching would lead us to believe. 'For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world; and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith (5:4). 'And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him (2:3-5).
From such texts it is clear that obedience is intimately related to assurance; if we do not live and practice righteousness we have no reason to think that we are 'born of God'.


Again, Jesus said, 'If you love me, keep my commandments,' (John 15.10) not, 'To be a spiritual Christian keep my commandments', for obedience is for all disciples. 'Follow holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord' (Hebrews 12:14). 'Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him' (Hebrews 5:8, 9). 'But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation, because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy'(1 Peter 1:15, 16).


The Bible makes it crystal clear that there is a close relationship between assurance and obedience; but the 'carnal Christian' teaching gives assurance to those who are at home in the realm of sin. They are classed as Christians. Many times this is a false and damning assurance because such have no biblical reason to believe that they are Christians at all.


6. A low view of sin.


Sixth: The fruits of this teaching are not new to Christianity even though the teaching appears on the present scene under a new mask. It is the old doctrine of Antinomianism. Paul attacks this in Romans 6:1, 2 when he asks, 'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid...' By implication, the answer of the three-category teaching to Paul's question is, 'Yes, you can continue in sin and be a carnal Christian'. And that is Antinomianism!


7. A second work-of-grace made necessary


Seventh: 'carnal Christian' teaching is the mother of many second work-of-grace errors in that it depreciates the biblical conversion experience by implying that the change in the converted sinner may amount to little or nothing. It goes on to say that the important change which affects a man's character and conduct is the second step which makes him a 'spiritual Christian'.


8. A wrong view of Christ


Eighth: The 'carnal Christian' teaching is also the mother of one of the most soul-destroying teachings of our day. It suggests that you can take Jesus as your Savior and yet treat obedience to his lordship as optional. How often is the appeal made to the so-called 'carnal Christians' to put Jesus on the throne and 'make him Lord'! When they accept Jesus as Lord, they are told, they will cease to be 'carnal Christians'. But such teaching is foreign to the New Testament. When our Lord appeared in human form in history the angel announced his coming in the words, 'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord' (Luke 2:11). He cannot be divided. The Savior and Lord are one. When the apostles preached they proclaimed Christ to be Lord. To bow to his rule was never presented in the Bible as a second step of consecration. 'For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake' (2 Corinthians 4:5).


When sinners truly receive him they do receive him as Lord. 'As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him' (Colossians 2:6).


Matthew Henry, in his Introduction to the Gospel according to Matthew said: 'All the grace contained in this book is owing to Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior; and, unless we consent to him as our Lord we cannot expect any benefit by him as our Savior.'


Charles Haddon Spurgeon warned his students: 'If the professed convert distinctly and deliberately declares that he knows the Lord's will but does not mean to attend to it, you are not to pamper his presumption, but it is your duty to assure him that he is not saved. Do not suppose that the Gospel is magnified or God glorified by going to the worldlings and telling them that they may be saved at this moment by simply accepting Christ as their Savior, while they are wedded to their idols, and their hearts are still in love with sin. If I do so I tell them a lie, pervert the Gospel, insult Christ, and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness.'


It is vital in this connection to notice how the apostles preached the lordship of Christ. The word 'Savior' occurs only twice in the Acts of the Apostles (5:31; 13:23), on the other hand the title 'Lord' is mentioned 92 times, 'Lord Jesus' 13 times, and 'The Lord Jesus Christ' 6 times in the same book! The gospel is: 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.'


It is the 'carnal Christian' teaching that has given rise to this erroneous teaching of the divided Christ. When Peter preached what we might call the first sermon after our Lord's ascension he made it abundantly clear that we do not make Christ Lord at all: 'Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ' (Acts 2:36). God has made him Lord! 'For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord of the dead and living' (Romans 14: 9). And the same grace which saves brings sinners to recognize this. But the three-category teaching invites 'carnal Christians' to make Christ Lord and thus become spiritual Christians. Again, we see that this is treating our acceptance of his lordship as something additional to salvation, when, in fact, recognition of him as Lord is an integral and necessary part of conversion. A. A. Hodge has written:

'You cannot take Christ for justification unless you take him for sanctification. Think of the sinner coming to Christ and saying, "I do not want to be holy;" "I do not want to be saved from sin;" "I would like to be saved in my sins;" "Do not sanctify me now, but justify me now." What would be the answer? Could he be accepted by God? You can no more separate justification from sanctification than you can separate the circulation of the blood from the inhalation of the air. Breathing and circulation are two different things, but you cannot have the one without the other; they go together, and they constitute one life. So you have justification and sanctification; they go together, and they constitute one life. If there was ever one who attempted to receive Christ with justification and not with sanctification, he missed it, thank God! He was no more justified than he was sanctified."


9. False spirituality


Ninth: This teaching breeds Pharisaism in the so-called 'spiritual Christians' who have measured up to some man-made standard of spirituality. There ought to be no professed 'spiritual Christians', much less 'super-spiritual' ones! George Whitefield, a man who lived very close to his Savior, prayed all his days, 'Let me begin to be a Christian'. And another Christian has truly said: 'In the life of the most perfect Christian there is every day renewed occasion for self-abhorrence, for repentance, for renewed application to the blood of Christ, for application of the rekindling of the Holy Spirit'.

Conclusion


The effect of believing the truth set out in these pages ought to be that we long to see more true evangelism.


The 'carnal Christian' teaching is, after all, the consequence of a shallow, man-centered evangelism in which decisions are sought at any price and with any methods. When those pronounced to be converts do not act like Christians, do not love what Christians love, and hate what Christians hate, and do not willingly serve Christ in his church, some explanation must be found other than calling upon them to 'decide' for Christ. They have already done that and have already been pronounced by the preacher or personal worker to be 'Christians'. But when they don't act like Christians something is wrong. What is it? The teaching I have sought to answer says that the trouble is that they are just 'carnal Christians'; they have not made Christ 'Lord' of their lives; they have not let him occupy the throne of their hearts. Once this explanation is seen to be unscriptural it will also be seen to be closely connected with an initial error over evangelism itself. Too often, modern evangelism has substituted a 'decision' in the place of repentance and saving faith. Forgiveness is preached without the equally important truth that the Spirit of God must change the heart. As a result decisions are treated as conversions even though there is no evidence of a supernatural work of God in the life.


Surely the best way to end this evil is to pray and labor for the restoration of New Testament evangelism! Whenever such evangelism exists it is certain that men will learn that it is not enough to profess to be a Christian, and not enough to call Jesus 'Lord, Lord' (Luke 6:46). The gospel preached in awakening power will summon men not to rest without biblical evidence that they are born of God. It will disturb those who, without good reason, have believed that they are already Christians. It will arouse backsliders by telling them that as long as they remain in that condition the possibility exists that they never were genuine believers at all. And to understand this will bring new depths of compassion and urgency to the hearts of God's people in this fallen world.
One of the greatest hindrances to the recovery of such preaching is the theory we have considered. To reject that theory is to be brought back to a new starting-point in evangelism and in the understanding of the Christian life. It is to bring God's work into the center of our thinking. It is to see afresh that there are only two alternatives -- the natural life or the spiritual life, the broad way or the narrow way, the gospel 'in word only' or the gospel 'in power and in the Holy Ghost' (1 Thessalonians 1:5), the house on the sand or the house on the rock.
There is no surer certainty than the fact that an unchanged heart and a worldly life will bring men to hell. 'Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience' (Ephesians 5: 6)


It is not only in the world today that evangelism is needed. It is needed in the church.

steward@peacemakers.net

The Carnal Christian
Ernest C Reisinger

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
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FOUR KINDS OF MEN
by Cornelius R. Stam

becauseHElives what kind of man R U?

According to St. Paul's inspired epistles, the human race is divided into four categories:
1. The natural man, i.e., the fallen son of Adam, as he is, without God. Of him the Apostle says: "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (ICor.2:14).

2. The babe in Christ. When a person sees himself as a sinner and trusts Christ as his Saviour, he is "born again" and becomes a "babe in Christ". But babes can and should grow, so these are exhorted: "As newborn babes, desire the sincere [pure] milk of the Word, that ye may grow thereby" (IPet.2:2).

3. The carnal Christian is one who, though perhaps a Christian for years, has not grown, due to indifference and neglect of the Word of God. He still has to be treated as a babe in Christ. The Corinthian believers were examples of this. Paul had to write them: "I...could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear [digest] it, neither yet now are ye able" (ICor.3:1,2). Everybody loves a baby, but the joy that fills the hearts of loving parents turns to bitterest sorrow if their baby fails to grow.

4. The spiritual Christian is one who, through prayerful study of the Word of God, has grown to spiritual maturity. He is no longer merely a child of God; he is a "man of God". We should all "desire the sincere [pure] milk of the Word that ye may grow thereby" (IPet.2:2) -- "THAT WE HENCEFORTH BE NO MORE CHILDREN, TOSSED TO AND FRO, AND CARRIED ABOUT WITH EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE" (Eph.4:14). Let us then heed St. Peter's inspired exhortation: "BUT GROW IN GRACE, AND IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST" (IIPet. 3:18).

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That is all.....

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