Christian Chat Network

This version of the message boards has closed.
Please click below to go to the new Christian BBS website.

New Message Boards - Click Here

You can still search for the old message here.

Christian Message Boards


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
| | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Exposing False Teaching   » Fallacy of Atonement

   
Author Topic: Fallacy of Atonement
Mark Elbing
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks for pointing out the problem with language! So many times words can have multiple meanings which can confuse people.

I mispelled the word canon. Canon can also be a standard or law. It is used many times with respect to Church Law.

A better statement might have been. Lay down the laws. I had used the word canon since Drew was using the Christian language to express his viewpoint.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 16 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -  -  -

2Ti 2:4 No one who wars tangles with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who chose him to be a soldier.

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mark Elbing
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Roll out the Cannons!!!
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1

Icon 1 posted      Profile for KnowHim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Amen Drew!!!

[thumbsup2]

--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox

Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The TRUE Church, the Body of Christ is not found within Cathedral walls, Mega sprawling complexs, glittery thronerooms of pomp and circumstance.

The Body of Christ is in the hearts and lives of His children, redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb, sojourners in an alien land, bound for Glory, with inheritence in the Father's House.

The Body of Christ loves the Lord thy God with all of their heart, their soul, their mind, and truly loves their neighbor as they would themselves. The Body of Christ walks the prisons corridors bringing hope to the hopeless, walks the back alleys of depravation bringing succor to the suffering, reaches out a hand of unconditional love to the destitute, and shows the pathway to the Cross of Christ and salvation for the lost.

What have the Brethren to do with the things of this world, for it is not our Home, merely a location of sojourn according to the will of the Master. The Brethren follow the perspective of our elder Brother Paul who declared that to live is Christ and to die is gain for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

If a cancer strikes our body we will be healed, if not presently, we will be healed when we get home. It is irrelevent what trails we face, what tribulations arise for we are only a fleeting instant in the fullness of eternity.

Our God reigns and the Brethren humble themselves and seek His Lordship in their hearts and lives. Irrelevent the whips, the abuse, the hatred and opinions of man for it is the Eternal and Perfect Will of God which has any relevence for the Believer.

In the Words of Brother Paul:

Romans 8:

32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mark Elbing
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not to be too long winded Drew, let me take up one simple point although I have many questions. Thank you for the material you offer for criticism! Are you a Roman by any chance?

Let me begin with your statement under the heading: Romans 3:10-12

"As it is written: "There is none
righteous, no, not one; There is none
who understands; There is none who
seeks after God. They have all turned
aside; They have together become
unprofitable; There is none who does
good, no, not one."

Several Questions to you Drew, personal questions:

What then of those who took your Christ's commandment of repentance, and took on the challenge of his order to keep the commandments?

My sins are 'breadcrumbs' anymore... I suffer terrible agony over the pressure and abandonment society places on me over this. The world is full of snares. Participation is society must be minimized. It's a narrow and difficult road but a way is made for me. Does Romans deny the making of the way for those who seek the way?

1. I can testify to this: there is one who seeks the way. As I walk my eyes are opened. I can't say I sought after God, but the spirit came to me in my grievous state. I have been molested by demons and cradled by loving spirits. I am simultaneouslly immersed in a partial spiritual and physical reality. I have been to death's doorstep many times and am still here to speak. The spirit has nested in me and is manifest in me always. The spirit leaves me mostly to my ways, but stands as witness over me. This has helped me to narrow my path.

As far as your Romans quote is concerned:

I wrote someting like that once Drew. I actually understand why that was spoken it anyone would care to hear I can tell you. There is one problem with it. That was my statement as I thought the world was dying. There is still life and hope. Christ did indeed demand that we abide in the righteous ways according to Christianity.

Let me present you with a writing that was done by my own hand, uncensored! here goes:


To every hypocrite:

you may not serve two masters. who you serve is your master. they'll never enter one of my physical worlds again. let them go to hell one and all. let them be off to the fantasy 'worlds' of their imaginations where everyone is entitled to their own truth. worlds where nothing coincides. worlds where some differing reality need be created for each and every soul. where everyone is right and noble in their own mind worlds where there are no consequences. worlds where nothing is touched, or felt physically. a hell where everyone lives in their own world. A place where everything is in their head and nothing is real. Let them live in a dream. But first let them collect the wages of their sins 1 and all. what they have enacted by their own hand and what is enacted by the systems they support Let them know who they are. let them receive their just due. let them understand what it is to pay taxes to satan, what it means to satan's victims. Let them find out what 'forgiveness' is in the physical world. let them see how often the dead actually rise in this world, let them see what justice is here, Let them know themselves. let them understand why angels have gone through perpetual agony for nothing. No progess, time to die. Judgement day.

Let me tell you something about forgiveness. It's a fantasy in the mind of every wicked proto-being, sub-human. This physical world does not support it. The god (power) of the fools preaches it. Thou shalt not most surely die? Go ahead and sin? get what you can? god surely will understand your sins are neccessary!? then... pretend that paradise is not lost? praise the devil for the apartheid you have mastered? thank the devil for your gifts you call blessings? ignore reality and put suffering out of your mind? blame the victims of your greed for their suffering rather than take action? celebrate the beauty of the ugliness of this world? Excuse the horrors of this world as god's will? accept the snakes offer of forgiveness which had no place in the garden and has no place here? The big lie is what you live! just keep saying amen and paradise will be yours in some fantasy world, not here? You have proven your faith already. Time to die. (to whomever this may apply)

I am the witness,and these are the things that I have seen with these eyes which are my own. I share the visions of my eyes with you for the sake of the chance of love's birth here in hell. Doubt me. See for yourselves. I have nothing left to prove.

what ever happened to: do unto others as you would have them do unto you? money over life?
what ever happened to: live by the sword, die by the sword? neccessity of killing?
what ever happened to: love your neighbor as you love yourself? starvation of children?
what ever happened to: thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven? faith in injustice?

Did love die on the cross? Have a look at the church. Love left the church thousands of years ago. I have closely observed it's failure. Goodbye to every christian on earth who bands with these fallen institutions, I wouldn't associate myself which such a willful perversion of love as the these churchs represent, nor would any enlightened being in any world.. let every associated christian, one and all, be poured into the hells of their own creation! let the christian hordes cease and desist in their support of corrupt nations and false teachings! You may not serve two masters! It's not in a word, it's in a way, and there is no other way, but to do it right, and association with thousands of years of failure is obviously unacceptable to any advanced being or child.

Thou shalt not most surely die? surely your sins will be forgiven? go ahead and partake of the fruit? just do a mexican hat dance and a few hail mary's?! Maybe throw some salt over your shoulder and drink some holy water from the river jorden?!? Maybe rip the head off a dove and squirt it's blood on an alter?! Maybe leap into the air and with a twisting motion expell gas and declare: jesus loves me? surely you'll be saved? Get real folks! Time to wake up. This is a world of consequences!

(to the enemies of love) I'll see you all in hell. ...and I won't be at the receiving end of the whip this time!

I walk the walk to the extent understanding and support permits me, It's a fine line. may the spirit permit me to talk the talk. you don't like it? see you in hell. (expression of my outrage)

I've had it with the BULL ROAR! Enough is Enough. This entire world treads on the brink of eternal damnation..

Mark E.,

PS. Break the silence

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mark Elbing
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thank you for your suggestions! [Smile]

In the 'words' of Christianity the chain is simply a proposed method of bringing awareness to those whose disobedience to the suggestion: 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' has become a world wide problem. This problem is expanding with overpopulation.

You proposed that the chain is broken over holiness, wrath, sinner, and death.

The links of the chain represent the WAYS which are required by men in their lives in preparation for death. The chain acts as both an inventory for those refining their path and a builder of peace of mind for the compliant.

I left negative terms out such as wrath since men are warned against partaking in this. In Christianity wrath is to be a part of God's judgement and left to God exclusively. wrath is not to be a part of the way of men, since wrath is usuallly associated with the enactment of violence.

How could I add sinner to the chain of ways which fulfull 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. Christianity rejects the ancient code 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth'. Though sin is a part of the human experience, I don't encourage it! The chain is meant to be an encouragement to all things good in God's eyes.

This same argument I would apply to all other words describing things that are a part of life, but which are undesirable in the eyes of man and as I would imagine in the eyes of a loving God.

Holiness is a possible correct addition except for the negative history of the use of the term. When I constructed the chain I made it as an outreach to all the people rather than to one relilgion or sect. It is made as a net to bring in the harvest of those seeking the truth and a good life. I attempted not to use words that have negative connotations associated with them. Holy has been spoiled by the many divisions of religious hypocrites who engage to this day in holy war, which I detest, and as I imagine a loving God would also detest.

Death I didn't add since the chain represents ways to live our lives. The chain deals with what is in our hands, it leaves out what is in God's hands. We do our part, and God will do his.

The key point of the chain is to help increase the awareness that we can't pick and choose what ways we will abide and which ways we will not abide. In Christianity, we must be utterly transformed in our ways to satisfy Christ's demand for repentance.

I'm open to constructive substantive criticism. Please help me see the things beyond my understanding. Let my eyes be opened! Let us be bound in the honest seeking of truth. [Smile]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 16 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Elbing:
I observe too many into the technicalities of religious doctrine and the vanity of the spilling of innocent blood! You're making me sick! [Frown]

Let's come to the spirit of the law where salvation literally resides!

THE CHAIN: (The Faith)
truth+justice+love+kindness+sharing+mercy+honesty+
fairness+support+assistance+service+understanding+
tolerance+fidellity+unselfishness+communication+
doubt+reconcilliation+caring+compassion+
consistancy.

Your chain is broken and is of no use for is missing the most important links!

Holiness, Wrath, Sinner and Death...

This is what your GOD shows and is for mans word have no meaning unto Him, for all Power and Authority have He giving it to the Son. The Lord Jesus Christ is the One and only One that will judge this world with the Words of His mouth and every knee shall and will bow unto His glorious Sonship, Lordship, Mastership and Saviorship.

Even sinners can show all of your broken chain and yet not know what are they saved from..

Joh 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Admirable traits to feed the poor, provide for the needy. Many do such in the name of Jesus for His glory.

The question which you WILL be responsible for is what you did with the Lord Jesus Christ.

For there is nothing one can do on their own to merit salvation.

The righteousness of man is as filthy rags in the eyes of God. To be redeemed and clothed in righteousness one must receive Christ and His atonement. All the "good works" of a lifetime will come to nothing without God's redemption freely offered to ALL WHO WILL receive it.

Romans 3:10-12
As it is written: "There is none
righteous, no, not one; There is none
who understands; There is none who
seeks after God. They have all turned
aside; They have together become
unprofitable; There is none who does
good, no, not one."

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the
glory of God

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin
entered the world, and death through
sin, and thus death spread to all men,
because all sinned

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the
gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus
our Lord.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love
toward us, in that while we were still
sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 10:8-11
But what does it say? "The word is
near you, in your mouth and in your
heart" (that is, the word of faith which
we preach): that if you confess with
your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe
in your heart that God has raised Him
from the dead, you will be saved. For
with the heart one believes unto
righteousness, and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation. For
the Scripture says, "Whoever believes
on Him will not be put to shame."

Romans 2:4
Or do you despise the riches of His
goodness, forbearance, and
longsuffering, not knowing that the
goodness of God leads you to
repentance?

Romans 6:3-7
Or do you not know that as many of us
as were baptized into Christ Jesus were
baptized into His death? Therefore we
were buried with Him through baptism
into death, that just as Christ was raised
from the dead by the glory of the
Father, even so we also should walk in
newness of life. For if we have been
united together in the likeness of His
death, certainly we also shall be in the
likeness of His resurrection, knowing
this, that our old man was crucified
with Him, that the body of sin might be
done away with, that we should no
longer be slaves of sin. For he who has
died has been freed from sin.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mark Elbing
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So tell me Mr. Dives, does Lararus eat at your table as he does at mine? Many like to speak of the fruit, but what is your harvest? I'm a real world servant who has laid himself low and suffers the whips of corrupt society. My refusal to participate in society has led to my persecution. I can't by my way pay taxes to a nation state that openly engages in killing. That's only one example of the many crimes endorsed by the USA. On my meager allowance of $600 per month I feed many. I house many during the cold months to prevent the truely poor from freezing. Toleration is not a word for me, nor is love, nor is patience nor is kindness, nor is charity, nor is sharing, nor is suffering, nor is persecution,nor is service, nor is mercy, nor is honesty, nor is fairness, nor is compassion, nor is, unselfishness, nor is communication, nor is reconcilliation, nor is caring, nor is consistancy. These are the WAYS that define my soul. Take your words to the deaf, for they will find no fault with them, then might your pride swell, as you would have it. I'm trying to understand the feelings that you have that are your own. I'm not interested in the teachings of the dead! This is a world of living beings and rising beings. The word is a living thing, not a tool of contention used to play kiddie games. Show this witness some due respect. You need not know me to show me due respect that you would show any stranger. I have taught you how I would be treated. I have nothing to prove. I said doubt me. I asked you to teach me where you find an error, but all you have to proffer are the words of the dead. My question is to you, not to your idol! You have eyes to see, let them see! You have ears to hear let them hear! I'm a friend to everyone, but everyone is not a friend to me. On that day, things may change. Are we on the same page? Speak to me! I'll have nothing of your idols which you have created by your acceptance of the heresay testomonies of men in the name of God. What is God's work is not perfected in men. Men make their own choices and will come to judgement over these choices. Just so as the innocent victims have been judged by them, and so they will be judged by the God of all creations. Every man in his due time will perish and every man in his due time will face judgement for his acts.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mark Elbing:
...and a man who sees with anothers eyes is a fool in a world plagued by deception! He is a false withness, a gossip, and a liar?

...and Satan would be glad to receive you, but for a witness who has the courage and patience to stand your whip for your sake, as well as his own, for he loves the potential in all living beings, depite their foolish pride and abandonment of truth. But when the Judgement day comes, the proud ones will not speak so boastfully such heresay as you would, and so gladly as you do!


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Colossians 2:
8: Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9: For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
10: And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15: And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


If the witness is contrary to the Word of God then that witness is a false witness and a deceiver.

Matt. 7:
15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mark Elbing
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
...and a man who sees with anothers eyes is a fool in a world plagued by deception! He is a false withness, a gossip, and a liar?

...and Satan would be glad to receive you, but for a witness who has the courage and patience to stand your whip for your sake, as well as his own, for he loves the potential in all living beings, depite their foolish pride and abandonment of truth. But when the Judgement day comes, the proud ones will not speak so boastfully such heresay as you would, and so gladly as you do! [Smile]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wind without substance, wells without water. Testimony of nothing but seeking to validate the one who witnesses.

The Word of God is Truth and those who reject Christ Jesus our Lord, God manifest in the flesh are false witnesses.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mark Elbing
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Children, children...

A false witness is one who reports that he has seen what he has not actually seen.

Take the simple example of a man who reports an event that he did not witness. He reports it as if he has certain knowledge of what he did not see. He reports what another testifies to without having actually seen with his own eyes! Not only is the man a false witness. He is a gossip repeating heresay. He is also a liar!

Let's not play games with the truth. If you find fault in what I have witnessed then please address this specifically as I am not prideful, rather I am open to correction. Please refrain from heresay as evidence and show me who you are by reporting only what is within the realm of your own understanding.

I have not asked you to have faith in what I have witnessed. You have taken it upon yourself to bind yourself to what other's have reportedly witnessed. I make my stand on doubt. You would demand my faith in what you can't confess yourself in the light. If anyone is a false witness, it would not be one such as I.

You have eyes to see, let them see! You have ears to hear, let them hear! What a prophet of the land says is meaningless if it is beyond your experience and understanding. You may then take it only as a caution that may benefit you as it would widen the scope of possibilities of your conderations. That is to say it may expand your doubt! Doubt enables the mind of the seeker.

Seek and you may learn something. If you follow every dream, you might get lost. Best if a man accepts his limitation and trust God with what is beyond his ken, rather than hanging his hat beyond his own reach.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It is ALL about Jesus and He is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE.

ANY witness who denies the Lord Jesus Christ is a false witness.

1 John 4:
3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4: Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5: They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6: We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7: Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9: In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10: Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11: Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12: No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13: Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14: And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15: Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mark Elbing
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I observe too many into the technicalities of religious doctrine and the vanity of the spilling of innocent blood! You're making me sick! [Frown]

Let's come to the spirit of the law where salvation literally resides!

THE CHAIN: (The Faith)
truth+justice+love+kindness+sharing+mercy+honesty+
fairness+support+assistance+service+understanding+
tolerance+fidellity+unselfishness+communication+
doubt+reconcilliation+caring+compassion+
consistancy


'The chain' is made up of words that represent actions (ways) in our lives.

If you fail to uphold the way described by any link in the chain, then the whole chain crumbles.

Faith is a way rather than a state of mind. Each time the chain crumbles, the more difficult it may be to repair.

Hope begins with awareness, courage, commitment and change.

There is no other way. The steps must be taken, or else life is forsaken!

Take foundational inventory. You may ask yourself: Do I ever really benefit from sin? Does anybody? Why do I do things that hurt myself and others? Is there hope for me? Does anybody care? Be honest. The truth loves honesty.

LIFE is not in a word, LIFE is not in a thought, LIFE is not in a baptism, LIFE is not in the sacrifice of a dove. LIFE in not in the spilling of innocent blood. LIFE is not in a vain ritual. LIFE is real, play hard!

Water won't wash away your sins, nor will fire, nor will any Earthly power. On Earth, what is done is done.

The Earth is orderly. Jump off a cliff and it's unlilkely Angels will catch you, carry you to safety and reward you with a kingdom here on Earth. Jump off a cliff and you'll likely fall to your death or serious injury. Realilty is orderly rather than forgiving. There are consequences for actions we take here. How precious is your life to you here? The key to witnessing spirit is in keeping your mind sharply focused on Divine Law at all times. Otherwise you may represent a 'bad risk' since you may follow an evil spirit. Remember the spirit is divided? I'm a witness.

The state of Earth is hideous. The loss is ours. Cry for us always. We are the children.

What brings the healing?

Healing is in our positive ways. Healing is in our positive actions. Healing is in our positive changes. We must do our part. Take the steps that lead to our healing! When one rises we all rise together!

Emerge from the shadows. Come into the light of
understanding. Help to mend our fallen ways and allow the unbroken chain (our mended faith) to keep us together.

Hypocrisy is negative in the eyes of truth. Avoid it. It is of epidemic proportions!

PS. c'mon kiddies! let's drop all the big words and failed doctirne of the centuries and bring it right down to simple facts in plain English. We all know what's going on. Couldn't be more simple. It's all about right and wrong. Time to get naked. Stop hiding.

PSPS. I am a witness, and these are the things that I have seen with these eyes which are my own. I share the visions of my eyes with you as a warning to hypocrites and others. Doubt me! You have eyes to see, let them see. You have ears to hear, let them hear. I refuse to take the blame for your misinterpretations. I have nothing to prove. If you observe a fault in my observations, please teach me. Let the TRUTH be our guide. In our confessed ignorance LET DOUBT BIND US IN THE SEEKING rather than let rote doctrinaire FAITH divide us in misunderstanding.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 21 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Cross] Pro 30:4 Who has gone up to Heaven and has come down? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in His garments? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name? Surely you know. [Cross]

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Know that we have read this teachings "doctrines" my questian to you is; where is the Lord Jesus Christ in all this teachings?

Mat_28:2-15; Mar_16:1-11; Luk_24:1-12; John 20:1-18

Mar_16:19-20; Luk_24:50-53; Act_1:9-12

Joh_1:3; Joh_1:10; 1Co_8:6; Eph_3:9; Col_1:16-17; Heb_1:2; Heb_1:10; Rev_3:14

Psa_102:24-27; Heb_1:8; Heb_1:10-12

Tit_2:13 Act_20:28 Mat_26:63-67

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 16 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sorry for not been a little more clear on the post, but my thoughts where that once you read it you will understand this kind of message that is around us concerning Christ. Thank you Linda for bringing some light to the post. I my self belong to a church that is Calvinistic in Salvation (That is why I am a student of the Doctrines of Grace) but yet they are pre-mills in there view. It is something that God have been working in my heart for quit some time concerning this issues that are so vital for us to learn. Doctrine is very important for without doctrine you and I will not know about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. When people sometimes here the word “doctrine” they get defensive not knowing that doctrine is teaching, the teachings of the Word of God, Divinity of Christ and who is the Holy Spirit and so on.

I will provide this information that it may cause you to know about what is that they teach, not only that but who is The Lord Jesus Christ in there view and teaching “doctrine”.

Keep in mind that all that is in the world and out side the world was and is for the Glory of Christ Jesus alone.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.
Heb 2:10 For it became Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons into glory, to perfect the Captain of their salvation through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers,
Heb 2:12 saying, "I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You."
Heb 2:13 And again, "I will put My trust in Him." And again, "Behold Me and the children whom God has given Me."
Heb 2:14 Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil),
Heb 2:15 and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For truly He did not take the nature of angels, but He took hold of the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Therefore in all things it behoved him to be made like His brothers, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of His people.


quote:
Introduction to Islamic Beliefs and Practices

Introduction

The approach to the presentation of Islamic beliefs and practices depends upon the addressee's religion and culture. A reference point of commonalty or contrast is useful. For example, the Christians believe in the "original sin"; the connotation is that a human being has the stigma of being born as a sinner and is dirty filthy by nature. What has a newborn done to be a sinner or to be a filthy person? Contrast this with the Islamic teaching that every human being is born in nature, meaning good with no stigma of any kind and, if left alone without any brain washing will do no wrong. Such a person has a natural ability to distinguish between right and wrong and his tendency is to do right. In the society which raises a person brain washed, many times when he reaches puberty he is all confused – good has become bad and bad has become good under the influence of the society. He was not dirty by birth but the society has made him dirty in beliefs and practices.

Purification

When clothes get dirty, they are washed; when the body gets dirty, a bath or a shower is in order. Similarly, when beliefs and practices have become dirty, a purification job is in order and this purification is the entry into Islam through the door of witnessing or shahadah. Once a person has entered Islam he is purified as a newborn and has a second chance to start over again. His past sins are washed away while keeping his good works as assets.

Analogy of a Building

There are two aspects of purification: (a) physical, and (b) spiritual. Physical purification consists of purifying the body, clothes and environment. Spiritual purification consists of purifying beliefs and practices (works or deeds). The analogy of Islam is that of a building. A building has its foundation, pillars, roof, walls and other components. The foundation of a building is underground and not visible; similarly, the foundation of Islam consists of beliefs and remains invisible. The pillars, walls, roof and other parts of a building are visible. Similarly, what a Muslim says and does is visible and becomes the pillars, roof and walls of Islam. Frequently, Muslims talk about the five pillars of Islam without thinking that five pillars cannot stand without a foundation and only pillars standing on the ground are not called a building. It is, therefore, necessary that Islam be presented in its totality not just five pillars. Five pillars are a necessary but small part of a Muslim's life.

Beliefs as the Foundation of Islam

As the foundation of a building consists of many components, such as, steel, cement, rocks, etc., the foundation of Islam consists of seven components.

1. Allah, the Only True God

Nothing is made without its planner and maker. Similarly, this universe, the earth and life on it, did not happen by itself - the first cause is the Creator, Allah or the God. Allah is the Creator of life and death, hence He is free of death and is Ever Living or Eternal. He created males and females for procreation, hence He is free of gender. Whatever He created He knows in its minutest detail, hence He is All-Knowing. Similarly, He is All-Seeing, All-Hearing, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful, Forgiving, Just; He has many attributes or good names – Muslims are told that He has ninety-nine names. All of His names are not abstract words but they have relevance in every Muslim's life. He created everything and humankind for a purpose: to serve Him. The God, in Islam, is the bedrock of the foundation of Islam.

2. Prophets and Messengers

Only Allah can tell the purpose of the creation of humankind which He does through his chosen human beings called prophets and messengers. Islam recognizes many prophets of the Bible, such as, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and many in between them. Muhammad Ibn Abd-Allah Ibn Abd-al Muttalib was the last prophet-messenger of Allah who lived fourteen centuries ago. He received guidance from Allah, gave its meaning in words and deeds, thus becoming the role model for humankind.

3. The Guidance from Allah

When one accepts a new job he is given a job description and someone shows him how to do various tasks. Similarly, Allah gives the job description in His revelations and the Prophet shows the meaning and implementation of what and how. All the prophets of the Bible fulfilled their duties and the last prophet, Muhammad, did also. He left behind the Word of Allah, the Qur'an, and his teachings, Hadith, were collected by his companions. The Qur'an and the Hadith are the textual sources of Islamic teachings and will remain so as long as there is life on earth. Allah Himself has taken the responsibility for their preservation.

4. The Angels

Another creation of Allah, scattered all over the universe doing the work for Him, is angels. Human beings have been given very little knowledge about angels. One much honored angel, Gabriel or Jibrail, brought Allah's guidance to the prophets. Along with other angels mentioned in the Qur'an there are two angels with each human being writing his deeds.

5. The Last Day

Allah has created everything with a preset life span. Everything and everyone, from the moment of creation, are running towards its destruction or death. Modern sciences have arrived at the same conclusion. Science tells us that the solar system is middle-aged; when sun arrives at the moment of its death, that will be the end of its planets, including the earth. Similarly, the whole universe has its life span and there will be a Big Crush, the opposite of the Big Bang.

The last day for each human being is the day of his/her death, as there is a last day for life on earth. On the last day of the earth, there will be earthquakes, mountains will either be rendered to sand or will float in space like carded wool, water of the oceans will either be sucked into the earth or will boil away and the valleys thus created will be filled with earth or rocks. The earth will become smooth without mountains or valleys with no life on it. However, this is not the end of human beings. There is life hereafter or the after life.

6. The Life Hereafter

Allah is Just but there is much injustice on earth. Murderers are getting away with murders, embezzlers are getting away with their loot, dictators are getting away with their oppression and injustices, and other criminals are getting away with their crimes. Are they really getting away with their crimes? No, it only appears that way. Everyone will be accountable for his deeds to Allah on the Day of Judgment and will receive reward or punishment. The life of the earth is the life of trials, not the place of real reward or punishment. This leads to the reality of Life Hereafter. After destruction of life on earth Allah will command human beings to come back to life with body and soul, their resurrection. Resurrection is followed by the judgment by Allah. No judgment is complete without reward for good doers and punishment for evil livers. The reward is the life of paradise and punishment is the life of hell. Both are believed to be eternal.

7. Al Qadr (Measure, Destiny, Decree)

People are created as males and females, short or tall, black, white, brown, yellow, smart or not so smart, with appointed parents, having a given time and place of birth and death and so on. All this is decreed by Allah. However, human beings have choices and enjoy limited freedom. The result of their activities depends upon their level of knowledge, level of effort and permission of Allah to succeed. Since human beings do not have perfect knowledge, sometimes they succeed and other times they fail in their pursuits. The admission that only Allah has perfect knowledge and human knowledge is imperfect and practical implications of this admission is Qadr.

Works and Deeds as the Building of Islam Above Ground

The visible part of a building is whatever exists above ground built on a stable foundation. Similarly, a Muslim's life, his talk and his activities must represent his beliefs. They are summarized below.

Five Rites (Acts) of Worship

The term worship has two aspects: (a) Love for Allah more than the love for anyone or anything in life, including the love of one's own life. It simply means that one is willing to give up anyone or anything for the love for Allah. (b) Obedience of Allah and His Messenger for the love of them. If one looks for worldly benefits in obedience of Allah or desires to avoid worldly harm by obeying, then it is for business not for the love of Allah. Five rites of worship are given below.

1. Shahadah, Witnessing

If one believes in the seven aspects of beliefs and is willing to live his life accordingly, he declares his intention voluntarily and publicly or at least in front of two or more witnesses. Such declaration consists of pronouncing, "La Ilaha illa-Allah wa Muhammadur-Rasool-Allah" meaning there is no deity but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger. This pronouncement has the connotation that my Creator, Provider and Sustainer Lord is Allah and I have been brought to this world by Allah to serve Him for which I will be accountable on the Day of Judgment. The Messenger of Allah, Muhammad(S), brought the guidance from Allah, delivered to me and became a role model for me, therefore, I am going to live by the Qur'an and Sunnah (the way of the Messenger of Allah, Muhammad(S)).

2. Salah, Prescribed Prayers

Once a person takes shahadah, he is a Muslim and is required to perform the five daily prescribed prayers. In prayers a person addresses Allah directly without any intermediary or intercessor. Islam is the only religion in the world which has removed all kinds of intermediaries and intercessors between man and Allah.

3. Zakah, Wealth Cleansing Tax

The basic principle is that Allah is the owner of heavens and the earth, therefore, He is my owner and everything in my possession belongs to Him. I am only a trustee of Allah for anything in my possession. I must do whatever Allah requires me to do. Allah demands that when a certain amount of money is in one's possession for a year, a small percentage (typically 2.5%) must be spent for Allah's causes. In general, collection of Zakah is spent to help the poor and needy and other Islamic causes.

4. Sawm, Fasting in the Month of Ramadan

Ramadan is the ninth month of Islamic lunar calendar. During this month Muslims are required to fast from dawn to dusk, meaning not to eat, drink, smoke or indulge in sex. After sunset all lawful food, drink and sex are allowed. However, one must implement the moral code of Islam very strictly because non-adherence has double jeopardy, namely, violating the moral code and nullification of the fast. The fast is a test of one's sincerity to Allah.

5. Hajj, Pilgrimage to Makkah

A Muslim must perform Hajj once in a life time provided expenses can be met without borrowing or owing any money to anyone, health is good and the way is safe. Hajj is the re-creation of some of the trials and tribulations of Prophets Abraham and Ishmael, and Hagar, the wife of Abraham, with a few additional rituals. The Hajj lasts for five days from the 8th to 12th of Dhul Hijjah. Approximately two million people perform Hajj every year.

Significance of the Pillars

The above mentioned five rites of worship are also called the five pillars of Islam. Pillars are supporters of roofs and walls. If the pillars fall down there is no building left. Similarly, if a Muslim is not doing his five daily salah, this pillar is absent from his building of Islam and part of the building is destroyed. He may claim to be a Muslim but in practice he is a hypocrite. The same analogy is applied to other pillars.

Excellence in Knowledge and Conduct

A good believing and practicing Muslim is a role model for the people and the Muslim Ummah is the role model for all other societies. A Muslim scientist must be the best among his peers, a doctor must be the best, a car mechanic must be the best and so on. A role model must excel in all aspects of his life, that is, in knowledge, profession, on the job, in his moral character and honoring other people's rights. Most importantly he must excel in his service to his Lord, Allah.

Islamic Moral Code, Enjoining Good and Forbidding Evil

Islam requires Muslims to be righteous, truthful, fulfill their promises, be courteous, gentle in disagreements, have humility, keep the trust and keep all other well known virtues. Naturally, Islam condemns the immoral and criminal acts of lying, cheating, backbiting, slandering, breaking promises, breaching the trust, arrogance, haughtiness, and all other well known vices. It is not enough to stay away from vices and adopt all virtues but he has a duty to promote the same good in the society and do everything possible to stop evil and vice.

Fulfill the Duty to Others

There are mutual rights and duties. However, Allah will not ask on the Day of Judgment if you have received all your rights but He will ask if you have done all your duties. Human duties fall under four categories:

1. Duty to Allah

The first and foremost duty is to Allah. There are three duties to Allah, (a) not to associate partners with Him, (b) not to worship anyone but Allah, and (c) not to depend upon anyone for help but Allah.

2. Duty to Other Human Beings

Whenever there is interaction with another person there are mutual rights and duties. One person's rights are other person's duties. There are duties to parents, spouse, children, relatives, neighbors, buyers, sellers, ruler, ruled, boss, subordinates and so on.

3. Community Duty

There is a duty to defend the family, the country and the community as a whole. In addition there are people who cannot provide for themselves, such as, the poor, orphans, widows, handicapped, refugees and others whom a single person cannot support fully but the community as a whole can. Every Muslim should be a part of such a support system. Every human being has five basic rights, namely, food, clothing, shelter, education and health maintenance; every Muslim should be part of the system providing basic rights to all those who cannot provide for themselves.

4. Duty to Manage the Earth

Allah has appointed man Khalifah on the earth, meaning that man is a trustee or manager of the earth for the owner, Allah. Humankind, in general, and Muslims, in particular, have the duty to see that the resources of the earth are not abused: air and water are not polluted, animals are not killed for fun or for greedy people, trees are not cut down unnecessarily and so on. Use resources of the earth but do not abuse them.

Lawful (Halal) and Unlawful (Haram)

This is a part of Islamic Shari'ah, civil and criminal law. Every Muslim is not going to be an Islamic lawyer or a judge, but he should know about a few unlawful things. The basic principle is that everything is lawful except those things which are explicitly unlawful. A few things are doubtful therefore it is advisable to avoid them. The unlawful things fall under four categories.

1. Food and Drink

There are a number of things which have been forbidden as food and drink, such as, flesh of swine, blood, anything offered in the name of anyone other than Allah, flesh of dead animals, carnivorous animals, birds of prey, all intoxicants including alcoholic liquor and drugs of abuse and anything poisonous to humans.

2. Sources of Income

Any business involving production, distribution or sale of unlawful food or drinks is unlawful. In addition, all trades of exploitation or taking others rights away are unlawful, such as, prostitution, gambling, usury and interest, stealing, robbery, embezzlement, monopolizing and hoarding to raise prices and others.

3. Spending the Wealth

It has been mentioned that all wealth is owned by Allah and human beings are trustees for whatever they possess. It is, therefore, necessary that Allah's wealth not be spent wherever Allah does not desire it to be spent. A few examples of such unlawful areas are already given above. One person's spending is another person's source of income. Additional unlawful areas are spending money on unlawful food and drinks to serve others.

4. Sexual Relations

A simple principle is no sex without marriage. An engagement is a social custom not a religious rite. A person closest in blood relation lawful to marry is a first cousin. There is no permission for homosexuality or such "marriages" in Islam.

Conveying the Message of Islam

A duty of every Muslim, male and female, individually and collectively, is to present Islam to the non-Muslims. A Muslim, by the Grace and Mercy of Allah, may go to paradise but a non-Muslim has no such chance. At least, a person must convey the message of Islam to his loved ones, giving them a chance to save themselves from the hell fire.

Implementation of the Rule of Allah

Every aspect of a Muslim's life should be guided by Allah, including personal, family, social, economic and political life. None of the aspects of human life are outside the domain of Allah.

In summary, there are seven essential components of beliefs and seven essentials of good works required of every sane adult Muslim, male and female. The Qur'an and Hadith are essentially explanations of beliefs (Iman) and good works ('Amal-us-Salihat) and learning them in detail could be a life long pursuit.



--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15

Icon 1 posted      Profile for helpforhomeschoolers   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dont yell at Mac... Mac is our brother! Mac has not gone off the deep end. Mac has posted this in false teaching. This is a false teaching. Read Mac's signature! Then read Mac's following comment in the next post!

Mac is saying that our views on end times (eschatology)may differ.. you may believe one thing about the last days and I another... we may belive differently about the body itself (ecclesiology) some of us think the church began early acts, some at pentecost.. another late acts...etc... BUT when it comes to our view of SALVATION (soteriology) there can be only ONE WAY.. the NArrow way... the Cross of Christ and HIS atoning sacrifice!

Powerful message Miguel! God bless and keep you and your house brother! [hug] Your example here of this flase teaching shows just how currupt the mind of carnal man can be and yes, you are right, God extends to all at this time HIS hand of Mercy and Grace, but we should make no mistake, if we refuse that Mercy and Grace, GOD will indeed let man be destroyed by their own corrupt nature!

Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Eduardo Grequi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Miguel are you advocaTING THAT jESUS DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS FOR THE WORLD. JESUS SAID, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.

IT SEEMS THAT THE AUTHOR OF SUCH, "AISHA BROWN", IS TWISTING THINGS.

The gospels do declare the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus. I have read similar things debated by Orthodox Rabbi's. Their stand on this is that Jesus was not completely Jewish because only His mother was Jewish and that His father that Jesus acknowledges was God. And they used a small g- for god. Anyone who declares a different gospel other than Jesus the Christ, is in danger of hell-fire.

JESUS EVEN SAID IN HIS OWN WORDS, HE THAT BELIEVES AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED. AND HE THAT BELIEVES NOT IS ALREADY CONDEMN.

Miguel do you believe this writing or disertation of Aisha Brown?

Without the shedding of blood their is no atonement of sin. And the one sheds its blood is to be spotless and without blemish. JESUS SAYS, he that does the will of the Father, is the same as my sister and my brother.

And I myself, Eduardo Grequi has been taught the Torah, Talmud, Mishnah etc.... I am a Jew, who have come to realize that Jesus is the Messiah and he will come agaim.

Jesus said that the two golden rules, were to LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART. SOUL. MIND AND BODY AND THE SECOND IS LIKE THE FIRST and that is to love thy neighbor as thyself. All the other commandments hinge on these.

So where are you coming from.

Shalom lem goiy,
Eduardo

Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847

Icon 1 posted      Profile for TEXASGRANDMA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I was confused myself. Though maybe he was advertising for the Muslum relgion [Big Grin]
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I see! Thank you Brother Drew.. [hug]

Thank you for the topic Brother Mac.. [hug]

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
God bless you;

I believe that Mac is posting the teaching which is blatant error, for us to consider contrasted with the TRUTH which is that one is only saved through faith alone in Christ alone and that Jesus IS our Passover Lamb, our propitiation, that we have atonement through the Blood of Jesus.

John 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Matthew 26:
26: And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27: And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28: For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Romans 3:
24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:
1: But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13: For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15: And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16: For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17: For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18: Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19: For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20: Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21: Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22: And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23: It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24: For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26: For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2

Icon 20 posted      Profile for Kindgo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mac, I am missing the point you are trying to make with this post? [Confused]

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Pray about this things for even do we are in a time of great distress spiritualy, God in due season will let man be distroy with there own nature. (corrupt)

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Miguel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The Historical Fallacy of Atonement

by Aisha Brown

Salvation can be defined as the deliverance from sin and its penalties; the path to salvation, however, varies from one religion to another. In Christianity, salvation is found through the Doctrine of Vicarious Atonement. Since human nature is considered in Christianity to be wayward and sinful, this doctrine states that Jesus "rendered full satisfaction" to God for the sins of man through his death and resurrection. In a nutshell, Jesus took our place, and his death absolves us of our sins.

This is contrary to what is found in the Torah where God says: " ...every man shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deut. 24:16)

The matter of Jesus, as savior of mankind, is refuted in the Quran, wherein God says that He

"... has stamped them with their disbelief... for their saying 'We killed God's Messenger, Christ Jesus, the son of Mary' They neither killed nor crucified him, even though it seemed so to them..." (4:155, 157).

Salvation According to Jesus

Nowhere in the four gospels did Jesus explicitly state that he would die to save mankind from sin. When approached by a man who asked what he could do to gain eternal life, Jesus told him to keep the Commandments (Mat. 19: 16,17); in other words, to obey God's Law. To a similar question put to him by a lawyer, as recorded in the gospel of Luke, Jesus told him to love God and his fellow man (Luke 10:25-28).

The role of Jesus is made clear in the Quran where God says:

"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him...see how God doth make His Signs clear to them, yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth" (5:75).

The mission of Jesus was not, therefore, to set up a new method of achieving salvation, much less the founding of a new system of belief; as even the Bible points out, Jesus sought only to take the Jews from their emphasis on ritual back to that of righteousness (Mat. 6:1-8).

Paul of Tarsus

For the origin of the doctrine of atonement, one does not go to the teachings of Jesus, but instead to the words of Paul, the true founder of Christianity; in teachings of present Christian terms and practices.

Like many Jews, Paul had no use for the teachings of Jesus, and he himself persecuted the followers of Jesus for their unorthodox beliefs. This zealous persecutor was turned into an ardent preacher, however, through a sudden conversion around 35 CE. Paul claimed that a resurrected Jesus appeared to him in a vision, thereby, choosing Paul as his instrument for carrying his teachings to the Gentiles (Gal. 1:11; 12:15,16).

Paul's credibility in any capacity is questionable, however, when considering that: (1) there are four contradictory versions of his so-called "conversion" (Acts 9:3-8; 22:6-10; 26:13-18; Gal. 1:15-17); (2) God says, in passages such as Num. 12:6, Deut. 18:20 and Ez. 13:8-9, that revelations come ONLY from Him, and (3) accounts of numerous disagreements between the other disciples and Paul regarding his teachings are recorded in Acts.

Experience and observation had taught Paul that preaching among the Jews was not feasible; he, therefore, chose to go to the non-Jews. By doing so, however, Paul disregarded a direct command from Jesus against preaching to other than a Jew (Mat. 10:5-6). In short, Paul set aside the actual teachings of Jesus in his desire to be a success.

The Pagan Influence

Among the pagans of Paul's time, a wide variety of gods existed. Although these gods had different names and were embraced by people from different areas of the world – Adonis from Syria, Dionysus from Thrace, Attis from Phrygia, for instance – the basic concept in each cult was the same: these sons of gods died violent deaths and then rose again to save their people.

Since the pagans had tangible savior-gods in their old religions, they wanted nothing less from the new; they were not able to accept any sort of an invisible Deity. Paul was quite accommodating, preaching therefore of a savior named Jesus Christ, the son of God, who died and then rose again to save mankind from sin (Rom. 5:8-11; 6:8-9).

The Bible itself points out the error of Paul's thinking. While each of the four gospels contain an account of the crucifixion of Jesus, these accounts are strictly hearsay; none of the disciples of Jesus were witness to such, having fled his side in the Garden (Mark 14:50).

In the Torah, God says that one who is "hanged upon a tree" – crucified – is "accursed" (Deut. 21:23). Paul side-stepped this by saying that Jesus became accursed in order to take on the sins of man (Gal. 3:13); in so doing, however, Paul set aside the very Law of God.

The resurrection, wherein Paul says that Jesus "conquered" death and sin for mankind (Rom. 6:9,10), plays such an important part that one who does not believe in it is not considered a good Christian (1 Cor. 15:14).

Here, too, the Bible lends little support to Paul's notions; first of all, not only was there no eyewitness to the actual resurrection, but all post-resurrection accounts are in contradiction with each other as to who went to the gravesite, what happened there, and even where and to whom Jesus appeared (Mat. 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20).

Secondly, although Christianity states that the body following resurrection will be in a spiritual form (1 Cor. 15:44), Jesus had obviously not changed, for he both ate with his disciples (Luke 24:30,41-43), and allowed them to touch his wounds (John 20:27). Finally, as the divine son of God in Christianity, Jesus is said to share in God's attributes; one cannot fail to wonder, however, just how it can be possible for God to die...

In his desire to win souls among the pagans, Paul simply reworked a number of major pagan beliefs to come up with the Christian scheme of salvation. No prophet – including Jesus himself – taught such concepts; they were authored entirely by Paul.

The Ultimate Sacrifice

Long accustomed to making sacrifices to their gods, the pagans easily grasped Paul's notion that Jesus was the "ultimate sacrifice" whose blood washed away sin. A common ceremony during this time in various Middle Eastern cults, such as those of Attis and Mithras, was that of the "taurobolium": a person descended into a pit covered over with grillwork upon which a bull (or ram), said to represent the pagan deity himself, was then ceremoniously slain. By covering himself with the blood, the person in the pit below was said to have been "born again" with his sins washed away.

It is worth noting that the Jews had given up sacrifice back in 590 BCE following the destruction of their Temple. Paul's notions, therefore, were in direct contradiction to both Old Testament teaching (Hosea 6:6) and even to the teaching of Jesus himself (Mat. 9:13) which stressed how God desired good virtues, not sacrifice.

While Paul stressed that God's "love" was behind the sacrifice of Jesus (Rom. 5:8), the Doctrine of Atonement instead shows a harsh Deity satisfied only by the murder of his own innocent son. Paul was way off base here, for the Old Testament is full of references to the love and mercy of God to man (Ps. 36:5-10; Ps. 103:8-17) revealed through His forgiveness (Ex. 34:6,7; Ps. 86:5-7), of which even Jesus spoke (Mat. 6:12).

Pagan influence in Christianity even extends to its sacred symbol. Although Paul calls the cross of Jesus "the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18), reference works, such as the Encyclopedia Britannica, Dictionary of Symbols, and The Cross in Ritual, Architecture, and Art point out that the cross was used as a religious symbol centuries before the birth of Jesus. Bacchus of Greece, Tammuz of Tyre, Bel of Chaldea, and Odin of Norway are just a few examples of ancient pagan gods whose sacred symbol was that of a cross.

Original Sin

Central to the Doctrine of Atonement is Paul's notion that mankind is a race of wrong-doers, having inherited from Adam his sin in eating of the forbidden fruit. As a result of this Original Sin, man cannot serve as his own redeemer; good works are to no avail, says Paul, for even these cannot satisfy the justice of God (Gal. 2:16).

As a result of Adam's sin, man is doomed to die. By his death, however, Jesus took on the punishment due man; through his resurrection, Jesus conquered death, and righteousness was restored. To earn salvation, a Christian need only have faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom. 6:23).

Despite its prominent place in Christianity, the notion of an "original sin" is not found among the teachings of any prophet, Jesus included. In the Old Testament, God says: "... the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ez.18:20-22). Personal responsibility is also stressed in the Qur'an where God says: "... no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another... man can have nothing but what he strives for" (53:38,39).

The doctrine of original sin gave Paul the means to justify pagan influence in his scheme of salvation. Irresponsibility became the hallmark of Christianity through this doctrine, however, for by "transferring" sins onto Jesus, Christians assume no responsibility for their actions.

Salvation in Islam

By the seventh century, the doctrines conceived by Paul had been embellished to the point where Christianity was not almost entirely a man-made religion. At this time, God chose to send Muhammad as His Final Messenger in order to set things straight once and for all for mankind.

Since God is Almighty, He doesn't need the charade concocted by Christians in order to forgive man. In the Qur'an, God says we are all created in a state of goodness (30:30); He has not burdened man with any "original sin", having forgiven Adam and Eve (2:36-38; 7:23,24) as He forgives us (11:90; 39:53-56).

As we are all personally responsible for our actions (2:286; 6:164) there is no need for a humanly concocted savior in Islam; salvation comes from God alone (28:67).

Thus did Islam seek to restore the true meaning to monotheism, for in the Qur'an God asks:

"Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in faith?" (4:125; 41:33).

The Religion of Man

The evidence is overwhelming that the concept of salvation in Christianity – its Doctrine of Vicarious Atonement – came not from God but from man via pagan rituals and beliefs.

Paul effectively shifted the center of worship away from God by saying that Jesus was the divine agent of their salvation (Gal. 2:20). In so doing, however, Paul set aside all teachings of God's prophets, and even the concept of monotheism itself, since God in Christianity needs Jesus for His divine "helper".

Take a Closer Look

With his very salvation at stake here, the Christian should take a closer look at what he believes in and why. God says in the Qur'an:

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger of God... for God is One God; glory be to Him: far exalted is He above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of Affairs." (4:171)



--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator


 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Christian Message Board | Privacy Statement



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

Christian Chat Network

New Message Boards - Click Here