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Author Topic: Save Yourself Some Pain
lonlesol
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Thank you David, Caretaker and helpforhomeschoolers for your help and kindness...I do feel better about this now...I apologize, I have been getting easily emotional during the month of May since my son died...
I know, some will probably say that I shouldn't apologize for this, I have been told many times lately to stop apologizing but I can't help it... [Frown]

God Bless You... [Prayer]

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Caretaker
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Amen David and Linda!!!!!

Our Dear Sister lonlesol,

A surely as the Savior died for all who will come, He gave His life for the precious wee-ones who are not yet able to choose to come, and the precious words reverberate in our hearts this day, "suffer little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven."

You can rest in that blessed assurance that you will one day be reunited with you dear-ones in that glorious land of endless day, in the very presence of our Lord.

May our Lord bless your heart and heal the pain and loss and fill the emptiness with His peace which passes all human understanding. In the glorious name of Jesus.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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helpforhomeschoolers
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1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Jesus paid for the sin inherited by your son.. the sin of Adam...

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The blood of Jesus allows for God to not impute sin to those who do not know that sin is sin.

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Paul talks of this time in his own life:

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Infants and toddlers born HOLY to a believing parent are given grace made possible by the blood of Jesus and God does not impute to them sins. Jesus has paid for the sins of Adam in them. When they die as infants or toddlers the sin in the flesh remains in the grave and they are redeemed by the faith of their believing parents that sancitified them and made them Holy and the blood of Jesus that allowed God to give grace and mercy and not impute sin.

Psalms 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.


Not only does the Bible show us these things, but the Bible shows us that God is a JUST God and those who are damned know what God knows of them, that they are rightly damned:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

You can be very sure, that in the day of judgment, you nor your husband will stand before God saying..."if only my son had been allowed to live long enough to be baptised." And you can be sure that Gabriel will not either stand before God and say, "but God... I was too young.."

God is a JUST and HOLY and LOVING God.. Full of Mercy and Grace. AND it was GOD who gave Gabriel a mother who believes and sanctifies her unbelieving husband and made her children to be HOLY by her faith.

This is why the enemy wants your faith and your marriage so much Lonesol. He wants it because it is your faith that is standing in the gap for your husband and your son.

God does not want you to grieve and worry and doubt forever. Give HIM your ashes and accept HIS beauty. Give HIM your mounring and accept HIS oil of JOY. Rest in HIM sister Lonesol.

How do you think that Joshua could make such a bold claim?


Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[hug] Rest in HIM!

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lonlesol
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David, so I really DID understand correctly from the beginning!... [Smile]

It DOES mean that my little Gabriel was not guilty of sin since he was too young to know right from wrong!!!...The only proof that I Did find in the Bible was in fact 2 Samuel 12:21-23...

You have no idea how happy this makes me!!!...Thank you sooooo much David!...You too Caretaker... [hug] [hug] [hug]

Now if only my husband could believe this!!!... [Frown]

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KnowHim
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The Bible tells us that even if an infant or child has not committed personal sin, all people including infants and children are guilty before God because of inherited and imputed sin. Inherited sin is that which is passed on from our parents. In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, "I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." David recognized that even at conception, he was a sinner. The very sad fact that infants sometimes die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam's original sin.
Each person, infant or adult, stands guilty before God; each person has offended the holiness of God. The only way that God can be just and at the same time declare a person righteous is for that person to have received forgiveness by faith in Christ. Christ is the only way. John 14:6 records what Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." Also, Peter stated in Acts 4:12, "there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved." Salvation is an individual choice.

Thirteen is the most common number given for the age of accountability based on the Jewish custom that a child becomes an adult at the age of 13. However, the Bible gives no direct support to the age of 13 always being the age of accountability. It likely varies from child to child. A child has passed the age of accountability once he or she is capable of making a faith decision for or against Christ.
With the above in mind, also consider the following: Christ's death is presented as sufficient for all of mankind. First John 2:2 says Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." This verse is clear that Jesus' death was sufficient for all sins, not just the sins of those who specifically have come to Him in faith. The fact that Christ's death was sufficient for all sin would allow the possibility of God applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing.
The one passage that seems to identify with this topic more than any other is 2 Samuel 12:21-23. The context of these verses is that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, with a resulting pregnancy. The prophet Nathan was sent by the Lord to inform David that because of his sin, the Lord would take the child in death. David responded to this by grieving, mourning, and praying for the child. But, once the child was taken, David's mourning ended. David's servants were surprised to hear this. They said to King David, "What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." David's response was, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." David's response can be seen as an argument that those who cannot believe are safe in the Lord. David said that he could go to the child, but that he could not bring the child back to him. Also, and just as important, David seemed to be comforted over this. In other words, David seemed to be saying that he would once again see the child (in heaven), though he could not bring him back.

Though the Bible leaves open the possibility, the one problem with saying that God applies Christ's payment for sin to those who can't believe is that the Bible does not specifically say that He does this. Therefore, this is a subject for which we should not be adamant or dogmatic. We can, however, be dogmatic about the fact that God ALWAYS does what is right.
Knowing the love and grace of God, God applying Christ’s death to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His character. It is our position that God applies Christ's payment for sin to young children and those who are mentally handicapped, since they were not mentally capable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior. Of this I am certain, that God is loving, holy, merciful, just and gracious. Whatever He does, it is ALWAYS Right.

http://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f006.html

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KnowHim
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John 3:3-7, “Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.’”

When first considering this passage, it is important to note that nowhere in the context of the passage is baptism even mentioned. While baptism is mentioned later in this chapter (John 3:22-30) that is in a totally different setting (Judea instead of Jerusalem), and at a different time than the discussion with Nicodemus. This is not to say that Nicodemus was unfamiliar with baptism, either from the Jewish practice of baptizing Gentile converts to Judaism, or from John’s the Baptist’s ministry. However, simply reading these verses in context would give one no reason to assume that Jesus was speaking of baptism, unless they were looking to read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions “water” is unwarranted.

Those who hold baptism to be required for salvation point to “born of water” as evidence. As one person has put it, “Jesus describes it and tells him plainly how—by being born of water and the Spirit. This is a perfect description of baptism! Jesus could not have given a more detailed and accurate explanation of baptism.” However, had Jesus actually wanted to say that one must be baptized to be saved, He clearly could have simply stated, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9: Titus 3:5).

We should also not lose sight of the fact that when John was speaking to Nicodemus; the ordinance of Christian Baptism was not yet in effect. This important inconsistency in interpreting Scriptures is seen when one asks those who believe that baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question is: “The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.” So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was “under the Old Covenant,” will use John 3:5 as “proof” that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he also was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized?

If “being born of water and the Spirit” is not referring to baptism, then what does it mean? Traditionally, there have been two primary interpretations of this phrase. The first is that being “born of water” is being used by Jesus to refer to natural birth (with water referring to the amniotic fluid that surrounds the baby in the womb) and that being born of the “Spirit” indicates spiritual birth. While that is certainly a possible interpretation of the term “born of water” and would seem to fit the context of Nicodemus’ question about how a man could be born “when he is old,” it is not, in my opinion, the best interpretation given the context of this passage. After all, Jesus was not talking about the difference between natural birth and spiritual birth. What He was doing was explaining to Nicodemus his need to be “born from above” or “born again.”

The second common interpretation of this passage and the one that I believe best fits the overall context, not only of this passage but of the Bible as a whole, is the one that sees the phrase “born of water and the Spirit” as both describing different aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be “born again” or “born from above.” So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must “be born of water and the Sprit” He was not referring to literal water (i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb), but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Throughout the Old Testament (Psalm 51:2; Psalm 51:7; Ezekiel 36:25), and the New Testament (John 13:10; John 15:3; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:22), water is often used figuratively of spiritual cleansing or regeneration that is brought forth by the Holy Spirit, through the Word of God, at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5).

The Barclay Daily Study Bible describes this concept in this way: “There are two thoughts here. Water is the symbol of cleansing. When Jesus takes possession of our lives, when we love Him with all our heart, the sins of the past are forgiven and forgotten. The Spirit is the symbol of power. When Jesus takes possession of our lives it is not only that the past is forgotten and forgiven; if that were all, we might well proceed to make the same mess of life all over again; but into life there enters a new power which enables us to be what by ourselves we could never be and to do what by ourselves we could never do. Water and the Spirit stand for the cleansing and the strengthening power of Christ, which wipes out the past and gives victory in the future.”

Therefore ,the “water” mentioned in this verse is not literal physical water but is referring to the “living water” that Jesus promised the women at the well in John 4:10, and the people in Jerusalem in John 7:37-39. It is the inward purification and renewal that is produced by the Holy Spirit that brings forth spiritual life to a dead sinner (Ezekiel 36:25-27; Titus 3:5). John again reinforces this truth in John 3:7, when Jesus restates the fact that one must be born again, and that this newness of life can only be produced the Holy Spirit (John 3:8).

There are several reasons why I believe this to be the correct interpretation of the phrase “born of water and the Spirit.” First of all, we should note that the Greek word translated “again” has two possible meanings. The first one is “again” and the second one is “from above.” Nicodemus apparently assumed the first meaning “again” and found that idea incomprehensible. That is why he could not understand how as a grown man he could re-enter his mother’s womb and be “born again” physically. Therefore, Jesus restates what He had just told Nicodemus in a different way so that it would be clear that He was referring to being “born from above.” In other words, both “born from above” and “born of water and Spirit” are two ways of saying the same thing.

Secondly it is important to note that the Greek grammar in this verse would seem to indicate that “being born of water” and “being born of the Spirit” are thought of as one item, not two. Therefore, it is not speaking of two separate births, as Nicodemus incorrectly thought, but is speaking of one birth, that of being “born from above” or the spiritual birth that is necessary for anyone to “see the kingdom of God.” This need for one to be “born again,” or to experience spiritual birth, is so important that Jesus tells Nicodemus of its necessity three different times in this passage of Scripture (John 3:3, 3:5, 3:7).

Third, water is often used symbolically in the Bible to refer to the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctifying a believer, whereby God cleanses and purifies the believer’s heart or soul. In many places in both the Old and New Testaments, the work of the Holy Spirit is compared to water (Isaiah 44:3; John 7:38-39).

Jesus rebukes Nicodemus in John 3:10 by asking him: “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?” This infers that what Jesus had just told him was something Nicodemus should have known and understood from the Old Testament. What is it that Nicodemus, as a teacher of the Old Testament, should have known and understood? It is the fact that God had promised in the Old Testament that a time was coming in which He would: “sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” (Ezekiel 36:25-27). Jesus rebuked Nicodemus because he had failed to recall and understand one of the key Old Testament passages pertaining to the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33). Nicodemus should have been expecting this concept. Why would Jesus have rebuked Nicodemus for not understanding baptism considering the fact that baptism is nowhere mentioned in the Old Testament?

While this verse does not teach that baptism is required for salvation, we should be careful not neglect baptism’s importance. Baptism is the sign or the symbol for what takes place when one is born again. Baptism’s importance should not be downplayed or minimized. However, baptism does not save us. What saves us is the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit, when we are born again and regenerated by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).

http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html

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Caretaker
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God sends the children of the children of Israel into the land because
they did not have enough understanding to reject God. --

Deu 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shallpossess it.

There is a time in life when a person does not receive the FULL
measure of the consequences of wrong doing. It is in childhood, where
understanding is being developed.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall
know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou
abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Unborn children and yes aborted children are not capable of doing right or wrong and are there fore not culpable.

Rom 9:11 For the children
being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, ... Now,
here is the real crux of the matter: If the dead will be judged in Rev
20:11-15 according to "their works," how can those who have no
knowledge of good or evil (infants, young children) and those who have
not yet done any "good or evil" (the unborn) be held accountable for their
lack of understanding?
Understanding the w-o-r-d-s of the law was necessary in the giving
and teaching of the law. Neh 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law
before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could
hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
God does not require children to understand doctrine and doctrine is
necessary for redemption.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1. Background: The Basic Truths

a. God

(1) God is absolute, and whatever He says is true
(2) Whatever God does is right
(3) God’s will and justice may not be challenged by man—Rom 9:18-20
(4) God is merciful and loving: He defines what that means

b. Man and sin

(1) All are sinners from birth—Ps 58:3
(2) There is only one way to salvation, no exceptions, no excuses—Jn 14:6, Acts 4:12
(3) All human beings are incapable of acceptable moral or spiritual understanding, whatever our age or ability—1 Cor 2:14
(4) There is nothing in us or of us or from us which is acceptable to God – Rom 7:18
(5) Our spiritual and moral inability is no excuse before God

c. The problems:
(1) Well-meaning people who inject human ideas
(2) Mean-spirited people who inject human ideas
(3) Men who make doctrine without Bible warrant
(4) The Bible does not have a lot to say on this (but it has enough)

d. What are God’s ways of revealing Himself?

(1) Natural Revelation (Ps 19:1-6)
(2) Written Revelation (Ps 19:7-12)
(3) The ways of Providence—Acts 17:24-26—the acts of God in history
(4) Direct revelation—“thus saith the Lord”
(5) Through the convicting, comforting, witnessing, and leading of the Holy Spirit—John 14, 15, 16; Rom 8:14-17

2. What is accountability?

a. It consists of God holding a human being responsible before Him.
b. The Bible uniformly teaches that we will give an account to God.

(1) All will give account—Mat 12:36-37
(2) Believers will account to God for their Christian walk, at the Judgment Seat of Christ—Rom 14:10-12
(3) The Lost of the world give account at the Great White Throne—Rev 20:11-15.

3. What is a person accountable to God for?

a. Every person who is accountable is accountable in some way for The Law—Rom 3:19-20

(1) Define Law = God’s declared will for how we are to live and how we are to worship Him
(2) Several uses of Law in Romans

(a) Law as in Torah—Rom 7

Rom 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.""

(b) Law as in The Bible in general

(c) Law as the Gospel
Rom 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

(d) Law as in Conscience—Rom 2:16
(e) Law as a general principle, whether written or not—Rom 3:27 "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith."


(3) The Jews (and now the Christians) have God’s law written down
(4) The unreached (then and now) have the Law written on the table of the heart.

(a) You find the shadow of the Ten Commandments in the legal codes of most societies
(b) There is a sense of right and wrong in many societies that have never heard the Gospel

b. Every person is accountable for recognizing The Person of God as demonstrated by the natural realm—Rom 1:19-20—the marvelous complexity of nature, for instance.

c. Every person is accountable for the Gospel (if they have heard it).

4. When is a person accountable to God?

a. When they are old enough and sharp enough that God says they should be able to detect His Attributes in nature.

b. Rom 1:19-20

5. Questions that trouble people

a. What about those who die unaccountable (the unborn, the infant, the very young child, and those with serious mental developmental difficulties)?

(1) They do NOT fall under the category of those who are “without excuse.”
(2) God has saved the unborn and the very small in the past:
(a) John The Baptist—Luke 1:15
(b) Jeremiah—Jer 1:4-5
(c) David—Ps 22:10
(d) David’s first child by Bathsheba

(3) God will always do what is right—the unaccountable are safe.


b. What about those who have never heard the Gospel?

(1) If they are among those without excuse, they are without excuse—Rom 1:19-20
(2) Their responsibility will extend to what they did know: Luke 12:36-48
(3) Many cases have been cited of those ready to hear.

6. The Real Question: What about YOU?

a. If you are capable of understanding any of the things we have spoken of today, YOU are accountable to God!
b. You are accountable for the revelation of God in nature
c. You are accountable for the revelation of God’s Law in your conscience
d. You are accountable for the revelation of God’s Law in the Bible
e. You are accountable for the revelation of the Gospel

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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lonlesol
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I have been a Christian for almost two years...
I had a son in 1994 on May 8th and he died on May 28th of the same year...he would have been 12 years old today...


I am still having a hard time even today with the Baptism...
And to make things easier for me (Ha! Was that done on purpose or what???...Why does this have to happen especially this week hein???!!...this is enough to drive me crazy!!!... [crying] ), this week for Church, we are doing a study on John 3:1-21...I have to finish it for Wednesday evening...


In the verses of John 3:5.6...I have been trying to find some information about that on the internet, but it only brings me more confusion. I try to find it in the Bible but I can't find anything, I don't know where to look!...

I know that baptism isn't necessary for salvation, I also know that baptism is only a proclamation of faith...but Jesus clearly said that one has to be born of the spirit and not of the flesh to see the kingdom of God!...What happens then???...that really bothers me you know!... [Frown]

I know that Gabriel was wayyyy too young to understand these things, one needs to truly believe before he can be baptized, no one can do it for someone else!...I find this soooo confusing...I say that I have hope, but that is the only thing that I can really have, isn't it!...


''Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.''...


Someone Please, give me some meat!!!... [crying]

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Good information to give to new Christian's:

Becoming a Christian is the most incredible event that will ever take place in your life. You have found peace with your Creator. You have found everlasting life! Be assured--God will never leave you nor forsake you. He has brought you this far and He will complete the wonderful work He has begun in you. God knows your every thought, your every care and your deepest concerns.

Let's now look at some of those possible concerns. First, and of primary concern -- do you have "assurance" of your salvation? The Bible says to "make your calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10, italics added), so, let's go through a short "checklist" to make sure that you are truly saved:

Are you aware that God became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ (John 1:14, KJV), and that he died for the sins of the world?
Did you come to the Savior because you had sinned?
Did you "repent" and put your faith in Jesus?
Are you convinced that He suffered and died on the Cross and that He rose again on the third day?

God acquits us from the Courtroom of Eternal Justice on the grounds that Jesus Christ paid our fine. We are "justified" (made right with God) by His suffering death. The resurrection of Jesus Christ was God's seal of approval of the fact that His precious blood was sufficient to pay the fine.
Think of it this way... You have violated the law and face a $50,000 fine. You tell the judge that you are truly sorry for your crime, but he answers, "So you should be -- you have broken the law! Now, can you pay this fine?" He can only acquit you if the fine is paid. If someone else pays your fine, then he can let you go, but he must have "grounds" on which to release you.

The reason we need a substitute (a savior) to pay our moral "fine," is because we have broken God's Law. To see how much we have transgressed this Law (the Ten Commandments), we will go through some of them -- Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen something? Have you ever lusted after another person? If you answered "Yes" to these questions, you admit that you are a lying, thieving, adulterer at heart, and you have to face God on Judgment Day! If you have used His name in vain, then you are guilty of "blasphemy" -- you've substituted God's holy Name for a curse word. Perhaps you've hated someone, then the Bible says that you are a murderer. You have violated God's holy Law, and you're in BIG trouble. On Judgment Day, you will be found guilty and end up in Hell. That's why you need the Savior. Merely being sorry for your sins, or confessing them to God won't help you. You must turn from sin (repent), and your faith must be in Jesus Christ alone. He is the only "grounds" for God to grant mercy towards you. If you're not sure of your salvation, make Psalm 51 your own prayer.

Let's now look at some more important principles that can save you a great deal of pain...

Read on Click the below link:

http://www.livingwaters.com/articles_growth.shtml

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