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Author
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Topic: Hi everyone :)
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opie90
Community Member
Member # 7344
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posted
I promise to read it, most likely tomorrow. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I've probably heard/seen most of it before, but its always useful anyway as there is generally a point or two or elaboration on a point(s) that I have not seen before.
Silliness?
I hope you read my insanely long response - that took a long time! If it is inadequate please bare in mind that I'm only 18 and by no means a theologian and feel free to reply if you see fit.
Much of my church history knowledge stems from the ancient church history class I am auditing at Westminster Theological Seminary on the recommendation of my youth pastor so my information source is actually biased against the position I would like to take.
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"May His wound both wound and heal me,
He enkindle, cleanse, anneal me
Be His Cross my hope and stay." - From the prayer Stabat Mater
Posts: 7 | From: pennsylvania, usa | Registered: Aug 2008
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by opie90:
edit: I just wanted to make it clear that I do regard Protestants as Christians, as does the Catholic Church. They are "separated brethren"
Stop your sillyness.
read this.
http://www.geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/ttd_chap1.html
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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opie90
Community Member
Member # 7344
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posted
edit: I just wanted to make it clear that I do regard Protestants as Christians, as does the Catholic Church. They are "separated brethren"
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"May His wound both wound and heal me,
He enkindle, cleanse, anneal me
Be His Cross my hope and stay." - From the prayer Stabat Mater
Posts: 7 | From: pennsylvania, usa | Registered: Aug 2008
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opie90
Community Member
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posted
"Both Scripture and church history teach that your friend is in error, though his argument is a common one. The Protestant Reformers sought to recover Biblical Christianity in its purest form and to remove the additions of the past."
Whether it is consistent with Scripture depends on you interpretation of Scripture. I would maintain that it is. Have you read Church history? While it is not entirely conclusive either way it certainly was more Catholic then Reformed. I have no doubt that the Protestant Reformers sought to recover what they thought was biblical Christianity. Just a reminder, every heresy in Church history has claimed to be going back to biblical truth when defending its position to the early orthodox church. Simply claiming that you are returning to a purer and more biblical form of Christianity does not make it so. If you are going to refer to church history please give me quotes with citations, preferably ones that can be found online.
"Many of the doctrines distinctive to Roman Catholicism have evolved over many centuries. In fact, many important Catholic doctrines were officially adopted by the Church after the Reformation. In 1854, for example, Pope Pius IX finalized the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. In 1950, Pope Pius XII established the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary."
First of all, ALL doctrine evolved. Our current understanding of the trinity for example must definitely evolved and was not officially defined until 325 a.d. at the council of Nicaea. I might also point out that you must maintain that the Protestant OT canon of the Bible was not defined until during the Reformation. Secondly, dogmas were not generally defined until there was a problem. Once again the trinity is a very good example of this. The doctrine of the trinity was defined in response to various heretical groups like the Modalists. The Marian dogmas were officially defined at the dates you state, but they were always held to by the Catholic Church. I must admit that since the Marian dogmas were not being disputed in the church, there was no real reason to define them. If you are are familiar with early church history you know that Mary was always very highly regarded. If you want. I can provide quotes and citations from early church fathers on Mary to show that these doctrines do have grounding in the early church.
"This belief, found nowhere in the Bible nor even suggested by it, asserts that Mary's body, like Christ's, never underwent decay and that she was resurrected in her earthly body before decay could set in. "
It is correct to say that the assumption of Mary is not explicitly in the Bible. Much of the following information is from the Catholic Theology Handbook - its getting really late and I'm starting to have trouble thinking straight. The only Scriptures we can point to are ones that make up this doctrine in its undeveloped form. It is based on the belief that God "is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (MK 12:27). Then there is the proclamation of the risen Christ, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. (1 Cor. 15:23). One's participation in Christ establishes immediately an identity with his death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven (see Eph 2:5f.; Col 3:3). The earthly union with Christ finds its fulfillment in beatific vision of God face-to-face. (1 Cor. 13:12). Mary being the mother of God contributed to the development of the assumption of Mary (LK 1:45, LK 1:48, etc.). Other texts recognize the intrinsic connection among election, blessedness, and glorification also play a part (Rom 8:30; Eph 1:3-6. LK 1:33 says that Mary's exalting praise will endure throughout the ages. These verses are a primitive echo of the churches high esteem for Mary; they do not yet have in view Mary's eschatological fulfillment.
In the last few years there has been a decided movement within the Catholic Church to proclaim Mary as "Coredemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces, and Advocate for the people of God." Indeed, the evolutionary circle dogma seems complete. "Mary full of grace" has become "Mary giver of grace."
I know those terms sound really bad, but they don't mean what you think they mean...Sometimes I'm think some traditional Catholics like to come up with names for Mary that sound wrong but have definitions that are not. I hope you don't mind links: http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/coredemptrix.html http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/5thdogma/voxpopbk3.htm
Mary is NOT equal to Jesus nor does our grace come from her.
"The New Testament gives us the earliest forms of Christian worship. The pattern for worship found there consisted mainly of the teaching and preaching of Scripture, prayer and simple music. The service required no altar, no priest and no elaborate ritual. But by 325 AD the ordinances came to be viewed as having some intrinsic power."
We simply do not have enough information to draw conclusions as to whether a priest was needed or not everywhere as it may have varied in some places, but it certainly can be shown that there was a definite system in place way before 325 a.d.
Ignatius of Antioch
"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" (Letter to the Magnesians 2 [A.D. 110., 6:1).
Take care, therefore, to be confirmed in the decrees of the Lord and of the apostles, in order that in everything you do, you may prosper in body and in soul, in faith and in love, in Son and in Father and in Spirit, in beginning and in end, together with your most reverend bishop; and with that fittingly woven spiritual crown, the presbytery; and with the deacons, men of God. Be subject to the bishop and to one another as Jesus Christ was subject to the Father, and the apostles were subject to Christ and to the Father; so that there may be unity in both body and spirit" (ibid., 13:1–2).
In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a church. I am confident that you accept this, for I have received the exemplar of your love and have it with me in the person of your bishop. His very demeanor is a great lesson and his meekness is his strength. I believe that even the godless do respect him" (ibid., 3:1–2).
"He that is within the sanctuary is pure; but he that is outside the sanctuary is not pure. In other words, anyone who acts without the bishop and the presbytery and the deacons does not have a clear conscience" (ibid., 7:2).
Clement of Alexandria
"Even here in the Church the gradations of bishops, presbyters, and deacons happen to be imitations, in my opinion, of the angelic glory and of that arrangement which, the scriptures say, awaits those who have followed in the footsteps of the apostles and who have lived in complete righteousness according to the gospel" (Miscellanies 6:13:107:2 [A.D. 208]).
"instead of emphasizing the teaching-preaching ministry, the local presbyter began to function as a priest who made a sacrifice. This "magical" view of "the sacraments" took the emphasis away from the pure Word of God, and focused attention on the proper forms, words and materials used in administering those "sacraments."
Communion was present as a major part of the early church from the beginning.
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).
Ignatius of Antioch
"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
"God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).
"He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: ‘You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles" (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).
I would also like to note that the word of God is explicitly present throughout the Catholic mass and that Catholics do not believe the sacraments operate through some power of the priest, but through the power of God.
"By the fourth century the word "church" came to have a new meaning, one not found anywhere in the Scripture. No longer were the people of God "the church." Instead the word came to mean the totality of bishops. Salvation was viewed as coming through the bishop as the rightful custodian of the sacraments. Indeed with such a view, there can be "no salvation outside the church.""
Actually it meant both, the church visible and invisible (See St. Augustine's City of God). Slavation is through Jesus, the priests are only the tool he chose for the normative means of salvation. "no salvation outside the Church" means that those who are outside the visible Church are not saved by any means outside of the visible Church (which includes a great deal of the spiritual church), but are saved by the visible Church through their baptism in a church outside the Church or other such means. It is just saying that those saved outside of the Church are saved by an abundant overflow of God's grace outside of the normative means of salvation. If I am not making sense at this point it is because it is now 12:15 am.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
"Throughout the history of the church there have been attempts to dilute the Biblical faith and to introduce pagan corruptions. In the first and second centuries of the Christian era, for example, we see Gnosticism as an early attempt to wed Christianity to human philosophy. In the middle of the third century a Mesopotamian with the name of Mani, along with his followers, sought to combine elements of Persian religion with Judaism and Christianity producing what is known as Manichaenism."
Heresies that the Orthodox church, which even by your estimate of 325 a.d. was the Catholic church, defeated. Manicheanism was a bad citation on your part because that was after 325 a.d. If you are now going to imply that Catholicism incorporates pagan elements I warn you that the main proponent of that thesis, Alexander Hislop is widely acknowledged as engaging in extremly bad scholarship.
"The process of diluting the Christian faith is continuing to the present day. Popular preachers and televangelists are mixing Biblical Christianity with New Age beliefs and modern "Pop Psychology.""
I am aware of this. However, your statements here do not give me any reason to assume Catholicism is doing this.
"Because the Lord Jesus Christ, referred to in 1 Peter 1:7-8 as the chief cornerstone, knew that His church would face the constant danger of doctrinal perversion, the Bible instructs us to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3)."
Jesus is the chief cornerstone and we should earnestly contend for the faith. However, who holds the true Christian faith? How do you determine that you are not heretical? If you asked the Gnostics of the 2nd century or any of the other heresies they would have insisted they were true Christianity. Where not the Protestant Reformers in the same place as the Monophysites, the Manicheans, and others? In the words of John Henry Newman "I was a Monophysite". The difference is that the Protestants succeeded in breaking away from the Church.
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"May His wound both wound and heal me,
He enkindle, cleanse, anneal me
Be His Cross my hope and stay." - From the prayer Stabat Mater
Posts: 7 | From: pennsylvania, usa | Registered: Aug 2008
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
IS ROMAN CATHOLICISM THE MOST PRIMITIVE FORM OF CHRISTIANITY?
Question: I have a friend who is a Roman Catholic. He claims that the Roman Catholic Church teaches the doctrines of the early church, and that Catholicism is the most primitive form of Christianity. He says that the Protestant Reformation began 1,500 years after Christ and that it represents the doctrines of men. Is he correct?
Answer: Both Scripture and church history teach that your friend is in error, though his argument is a common one. The Protestant Reformers sought to recover Biblical Christianity in its purest form and to remove the additions of the past.
Many of the doctrines distinctive to Roman Catholicism have evolved over many centuries. In fact, many important Catholic doctrines were officially adopted by the Church after the Reformation. In 1854, for example, Pope Pius IX finalized the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. In 1950, Pope Pius XII established the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary.
This belief, found nowhere in the Bible nor even suggested by it, asserts that Mary's body, like Christ's, never underwent decay and that she was resurrected in her earthly body before decay could set in. In the last few years there has been a decided movement within the Catholic Church to proclaim Mary as "Coredemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces, and Advocate for the people of God." Indeed, the evolutionary circle dogma seems complete. "Mary full of grace" has become "Mary giver of grace."
The New Testament gives us the earliest forms of Christian worship. The pattern for worship found there consisted mainly of the teaching and preaching of Scripture, prayer and simple music. The service required no altar, no priest and no elaborate ritual. But by 325 AD the ordinances came to be viewed as having some intrinsic power.
Instead of emphasizing the teaching-preaching ministry, the local presbyter began to function as a priest who made a sacrifice. This "magical" view of "the sacraments" took the emphasis away from the pure Word of God, and focused attention on the proper forms, words and materials used in administering those "sacraments."
By the fourth century the word "church" came to have a new meaning, one not found anywhere in the Scripture. No longer were the people of God "the church." Instead the word came to mean the totality of bishops. Salvation was viewed as coming through the bishop as the rightful custodian of the sacraments. Indeed with such a view, there can be "no salvation outside the church."
Throughout the history of the church there have been attempts to dilute the Biblical faith and to introduce pagan corruptions. In the first and second centuries of the Christian era, for example, we see Gnosticism as an early attempt to wed Christianity to human philosophy. In the middle of the third century a Mesopotamian with the name of Mani, along with his followers, sought to combine elements of Persian religion with Judaism and Christianity producing what is known as Manichaenism.
The process of diluting the Christian faith is continuing to the present day. Popular preachers and televangelists are mixing Biblical Christianity with New Age beliefs and modern "Pop Psychology."
Because the Lord Jesus Christ, referred to in 1 Peter 1:7-8 as the chief cornerstone, knew that His church would face the constant danger of doctrinal perversion, the Bible instructs us to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3).
Politely tell your friend that you will have to disagree with him out of obedience to the Lord.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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opie90
Community Member
Member # 7344
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posted
edit: I'm sorry its called the sacrament of penance. Confession is part of the sacrament of penance.
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"May His wound both wound and heal me,
He enkindle, cleanse, anneal me
Be His Cross my hope and stay." - From the prayer Stabat Mater
Posts: 7 | From: pennsylvania, usa | Registered: Aug 2008
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opie90
Community Member
Member # 7344
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posted
Thank you for the welcome.
"I honestly cannot understand why a person who grew up knowing that we can go directly to God, can change to a Church that requires a person to go through a earthly Priest. Jesus is our Priest."
Jesus is our high priest, our advocate and mediator. Catholics believe that confession is a sacrament - that God chose it as a vehicle of his forgiveness which was gained through Christ's birth, life, death, and resurrection. In confession the priest acts "in persona Christi". It is Jesus forgiving your sins, it is not the priest forgiving them. Catholics do not believe forgiveness comes from a power the priest has in himself, but from God. The only reason Catholics believe that confession forgives sin is because they believe that God instituted it as a means of conferring the grace that is available to us through Jesus' death on the cross. If you are interested in the Catholic defense of confession, I don't mind attempting to explain it or giving links to such defenses. It may take awhile though because it is a very complex subject and I have not studied it thoroughly in a while. In addition, I have a lot of school work.
Now of course, if confession was not instituted by God then it is a horrendous distortion and is attempting to gain forgiveness through a human person. Thus from your point of view, it is indeed wrong.
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"May His wound both wound and heal me,
He enkindle, cleanse, anneal me
Be His Cross my hope and stay." - From the prayer Stabat Mater
Posts: 7 | From: pennsylvania, usa | Registered: Aug 2008
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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
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posted
Hello.
I too was raised in the Assembly of God Church but now attend the Baptist Church. I honestly cannot understand why a person who grew up knowing that we can go directly to God, can change to a Church that requires a person to go through a earthly Priest. Jesus is our Priest.
Welcome to the board.
Betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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opie90
Community Member
Member # 7344
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posted
I have been seeking guidance from God in prayer and will continue to do so. Thank you for your concern. I respect your right to that opinion and I am aware that there is a constituency of both Protestants and Catholics who feel this way about each other. Both sides include people who can be very uncharitable and are not careful to avoid straw man fallacies, who are un-knowledgeable about the others faith, or simply feel very strongly on certain issues. I acknowledge that there are some valid and important differences that exist between the two.
You say that it is not Christian, yet for 1500 years it was the only existing form of orthodox Christianity other then the Orthodox Church, which differs only on matters of authority. In addition, I'd like to point out that Catholicism does indeed fall under the Christian religion. Look it up in a dictionary. Also, they both believe that Jesus was born, died, and rose again for our salvation - What differs is how they each believe this is accomplished. Both of them hold to the nicene and apostle creeds which were defined at Catholic councils, which I am sure you are aware of and agree that they are orthodox in belief. Protestantism and Catholicism are both sub groups of Christianity.
Just so you know, it is incorrect to refer to the Catholic church as a whole as "Roman Catholic". There are 19 non-Latin rites that every bit as Catholic as the Latin ones. They are in communion with the pope and hold to the same beliefs. They only differ slightly in construction of the liturgy and certain disciplines. Many Eastern Catholics get offended when people refer to the Catholic church as a whole and "Roman Catholic" because they feel the individual is implying that they are less Catholic then Roman Catholics, which is not true.
Thank you for the prayers, I appreciate them
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"May His wound both wound and heal me,
He enkindle, cleanse, anneal me
Be His Cross my hope and stay." - From the prayer Stabat Mater
Posts: 7 | From: pennsylvania, usa | Registered: Aug 2008
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
glad to have you on the bbs Elena, ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
i hope you pray to the Heavenly Father for guidance
before converting to the wh0re Church... Roman Catholicism is not Christian in any aspect of its teaching...The Roman Catholic Church is worse than a cult if that is possible.
I will pray for you.
in Yahshua's name dale
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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opie90
Community Member
Member # 7344
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posted
My name is Elena, I am homeschooled (its my last year), and I am 18 years old. I've been a Christian since I was little. Denomination wise, I attend an assembly of God church, but I plan to convert from Protestantism to Catholicism after I graduate this year. I am waiting out of respect to my parents wishes.
I am very interested in theology and church history, but I am relatively new to studying both. I have some knowledge, but its nothing compared with the vast amount of theological subjects I do not know in depth. I have just recently started attempting to seriously study them starting with the definition of spirit, etc. Therefore, be patient with me if you can.
I am very busy with school, piano and many other activities, but I hopefully will manage to post once in a while. It's nice meet everyone and hopefully I will have the time to engage in some respectful and beneficial discussions.
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"May His wound both wound and heal me,
He enkindle, cleanse, anneal me
Be His Cross my hope and stay." - From the prayer Stabat Mater
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