Christian Chat Network

This version of the message boards has closed.
Please click below to go to the new Christian BBS website.

New Message Boards - Click Here

You can still search for the old message here.

Christian Message Boards


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
| | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Questions & Answers   » Matthew 28 versus John 20.

   
Author Topic: Matthew 28 versus John 20.
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 18 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Without the illumination of the Holy Spirit, they can't understand the written or the spoken Word. If they continue to resist Him then they will never understand the Truth that could set them free.

They were always trying to catch Jesus with trick questions too.

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Amen!!!!

It is critical to be able to say,"This we believe and from the Word this is why we believe it."

We must be as the Bereans.

Those who do not know the Word can be so vulnerable.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Paul

quote:
if the Lord can't entice you to live in sin he tries to keep you too busy to be of any good.
I think you meant to say "if Satan can't entice you..." lol

quote:
A lot of active Christians being evangelical in sharing Christ meet with issues like this and we should be able to come to our family to get answers and support so we can go back and help them understand but be careful of those who have motive of just trying to snare you.

Well said. The atheists' "Bible Ignorance List" is a waste of everybody's time.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Brother Paul   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Amen Carol, if the Lord can't entice you to live in sin he tries to keep you too busy to be of any good. But the Question was answered very completely. I deal with the "let me plague them with all 101 alleged contradictions" type of inquirer and after a short time I also say this is it...

Why waste days or months re-inventing the wheel..

Good work family, and Drew, glad to see you were getting equipped. A lot of active Christians being evangelical in sharing Christ meet with issues like this and we should be able to come to our family to get answers and support so we can go back and help them understand but be careful of those who have motive of just trying to snare you.

Love

Brother Paul

Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 18 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
He isn't ready. I pray God will persist and win him over in time.

Amen!!

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 6 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
He isn't ready. I pray God will persist and win him over in time.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
[pound]

Amen to that!

This could turn into a skeptics' annotated forum.

LOL!!!

I have seen them come-in over the years and use the same tired scenarios to try to yank the Xian "chains". The fruit is evident very quickly in their responses.

So often it plays out,"I am a christian but I now have so many doubts and am losing my faith",or "I just can't accept the brutal god of the old testament, and he seems so different than the god of the new, I just have too many doubts", or "I have been so abused and lied too by so many xians for so many years, I just can't be a christian".

One note is that its not about a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, (for to the atheist/agnostic Jesus is a myth or was killed-off on Calvary), but about being a christian or not.

If the query is legit then we need maximum patience, empathy, and the heart of Christ. If the fruit is rotten then we need the heart of Christ when He declared:

Matt. 7:
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 21 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[pound]

Amen to that!

This could turn into a skeptics' annotated forum.

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Originally posted by rstrats:
Carol Swenson,

re: “No, sorry.”


OK, so you don’t know how to explain the seeming contradiction. Perhaps someone else will know.

The explanation was given to you. But no, sorry, I am not willing to discuss it with you anymore than this. I do not see you as a sincere seeker.

You can read about it at Carm:

http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/who-saw-jesus-first

You should read Abednego's post too:

http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007254;p=1#000002

God bless you Sis;

I thought it needed an answer but it would be extremely wasteful to have to respond again to the Atheist Bible Contradictions list, when they have all been answered time and again.

Like an elder Brother in Christ, King's Son used to say, "I have better things to do then respond to this, like organizing my sock drawer".

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rstrats:
Carol Swenson,

re: “No, sorry.”


OK, so you don’t know how to explain the seeming contradiction. Perhaps someone else will know.

The explanation was given to you. But no, sorry, I am not willing to discuss it with you anymore than this. I do not see you as a sincere seeker.

You can read about it at Carm:

http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/who-saw-jesus-first

You should read Abednego's post too:

http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007254;p=1#000002

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The atheist with their hardened heart and superficial understanding of the Bible desire to substantiate contradictions and error.

One must understand that God's Word is a whole and not wrest scriptures out of that context. Especially the four Gospels are the testimonies of witnesses, absolutely true BUT NOT the complete picture when one Gospel is taken alone.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Caretaker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No contradiction.

quote:


An undisclosed group of women (we can only be sure that Mary Magdeline was one of them, maybe Mary of Nazerath, Joanna,and Salome, maybe others, we can't be sure) came to the tomb early un Sunday morning. They saw the stone moved, Mary Magdeline felt certain that the body had been moved, probably to desicrate it. She immidiately ran back to tell the others, while the rest of the women ventured into the tomb, where they encountered angels telling them that Jesus had risen. On their way out of the tomb they saw Jesus himself. Meanwhile, Mary arrived at the place where the disciples waited. She brought back with her Peter and John. While Peter and John went insdie and examined the emptyh tomb, Jesus appeared to Mary outside; while the other women were at this time arriving back at the place where the disciples were waiting.

This senerio hendges upon one assumption about a verse that is not stated explicitly in the text. One must assume that the angle and the earthquake and the rolling of the stone in Matt.28:2-4 are a "flash back" or sorts, an exlaiation of what happened the night before, and that the women did not see this event. For this reason, when the angels begins to speak to the women in v5 this is after a gap of undiscloed time, and it could be either before or after they went into the tomb. The text does no specify where the angle was in realtion to the women or the tomb when he begins to speak.

The reason this is important is because if Mary was with the women and if then had seen the angel roll the stone away and the risen Christ leave the tomb, then it makes no sense of Mary M. to run back to John and say "they've taken away the lord and we don't know where they have laid him!" That is a significant problem and it can only be resolved if Mary didn't see the angel roll back the stone.

The senerio described and the interpritation of Matt 28:2-4 as a flashback is justified based upon several facts:

(1) The most important is the Greek verb for "come down" in the v2 phrase "an angel of the Lord had come down." This verb is Katabas from the base from Kantabino which means to come down. The form it is in here is the inflected tense aroist. That tense is a description of past time, but it is different form the rebular past tense. The past tense in Greek is usually formed by the imperfect tense, which is continuous action in past time. "She was going to the store." But the Aorist is completed action in past time, "she went to the store." So the imperfect is like a film of the past, while aroist is like a snapshot of the past. Since this snap shot is place d in the middel of the "film" of the women's experince, it is clear that the angel had already come down, alredy moved the stone; this is an explaition of what happened the night before. Some English translations hint at this: NAS says "an angel of the Lord had come down" in other words, this has already happened.

Reasons supporting MM's Early Departure

(1)The Greek Text of Matt.28:2-4 supports "Flashback."

The Greek term Katabas (which means "an angel had come down") is aorist tense. This is completed action in past time. The angel had come, had rolled away the stone, there had been an earthquake, the guards had fallen like dead men. All of these events had already occurred when the women got there. Here is an inflection of the verb katabas.

Katabas from Katabaino , Tense is Aorist, its a verb, active, participle, nominative,singular,Masculine.

(2) All other accounts, including Peter, say that the stone was had been moved already when the women got there.

Mark 16:4

4 "Looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away."

Luke 24:2

2 "And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb..."

Peter 13:55

55 "And they went and found the sepulchre open."
(see John 20:1-2 below).


(3) John says that Mary departed as soon as she saw the stone had been moved.

John 20:

1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark,and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb. 2 So she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved,and said to them, "They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him."


(4) "We" don't know in John 20:2 indicates Mary was not alone.

One major apparent contradiction is that Mary seems to go alone in John, and with several different people in the other accounts.But what she says in John indiates that she was with other people, but John just chooses to focuss on her alone, for reasons explained below. Moreover, that is also added reason to assume the flashback-departure theory, since the text of John validates the idea that Mary left the others as soon as she saw that the stone had been moved.


http://www.doxa.ws/other/resharmony.html




--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rstrats
Advanced Member
Member # 7706

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rstrats     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Carol Swenson,

re: “No, sorry.”


OK, so you don’t know how to explain the seeming contradiction. Perhaps someone else will know.

Posts: 97 | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 6 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, sorry.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rstrats
Advanced Member
Member # 7706

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rstrats     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Carol Swenson,

re: “Jesus had already appeared to Mary Magdalene in the garden (John 20:11-18...”

I don’t see how that answers the apparent contradiction. Could you elaborate a bit?

Posts: 97 | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 7 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It is when we are obeying God’s Word that He comes to us. Jesus had already appeared to Mary Magdalene in the garden (John 20:11-18; Mark 16:9) . Notice that our Lord’s first two Resurrection appearances were to believing women. These faithful women were not only the last to leave Calvary, but they were also the first to come to the tomb. Their devotion to Jesus was rewarded.

“All hail!” can be translated, Grace. What a marvelous greeting for the Resurrection Day! The women fell at His feet, took hold of Him, and worshiped Him. There must have been some fear in their hearts, for He immediately assured them with His typical, “Be not afraid!”

Not only had the angel commissioned them, but the Lord also commissioned them. The phrase “My brethren” revealed the intimate relationship between Christ and His followers. Jesus had spoken similar words to Mary Magdalene earlier that morning (John 20:17). Jesus reinforced the instructions of the angel that the disciples meet Him in Galilee (see Matt. 28:7).

(Wiersbe)

In John 20, Mary saw the stone rolled away and left to report it to the disciples. The disciples and Mary returned to the tomb. The disciples looked in the tomb and left.

THEN Mary was alone at the tomb again, then the angels spoke to her, then she saw Jesus, and then she reported to the disciples again.

You need to read the Bible, not just copy and paste from some Bible contradictions site.

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rstrats
Advanced Member
Member # 7706

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rstrats     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Matthew 28:1-10 says that when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb that she was told by an angel that the Messiah had risen and would be seen in Galilee. Matthew then says that she ran "with great joy" to tell the disciples and while on the way that she met the Messiah (this occurred before she got to the disciples).

However, John 20:1 and 2 say that when she came to the tomb and didn’t find the Messiah there, that she ran to the disciples and told them that He had been taken away and that she didn’t know where He was. In Matthew she knew where He was (or at least had been) and where He would be, but in John she didn’t.

How can this be reconciled?

Posts: 97 | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator


 
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Christian Message Board | Privacy Statement



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

Christian Chat Network

New Message Boards - Click Here