|
Author
|
Topic: Did the Protestant Reformation Movement fail?
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
The Church Before the Protestant Reformation
Question: Christ said that he would be with his church forever, and promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against her. So where was the church for fifteen hundred years before Protestantism came into the picture, since you claim that the Catholic Church had fallen into error?
Answer: Christ certainly fulfills His promises and protects His church to the very end. This blessed truth is often twisted to glorify the Roman Catholic Church as if it is the only, infallible and constant church of Christ since the days of the apostles. The argument is misleading because it falsely assumes that:
1.
The Catholic Church was the only church before the reformation.
2.
The Catholic Church could not have fallen into serious error.
3.
The teaching of the modern Catholic Church is identical to that of the old Catholic church.
All three propositions are false.
1. The Roman Catholic Church was not the only church before the reformation.
The Lord preserved His people before the Reformation. The early catholic churches were neither Roman nor Greek; the division into the western and eastern churches was not complete until in the eleventh century. Yet Catholic apologists conveniently forget the Greek Orthodox Church. They too claim a succession of bishops going back to the apostolic era. Moreover, there were other Christian churches such as the Donatists, Novatians, Waldenses, the Lollards and the Hussites, who were bitterly persecuted by Catholics.
Roman theology claims that the Church is composed of those churches in submission to the bishop of Rome. However this is not the mark of a true church of Jesus Christ. As a matter of historical fact, the catholic churches in the first centuries did not recognize the bishop of Rome as the universal and infallible leader of all churches. The churches in the east, of course, never accepted the papal claim. The church of Jesus Christ is composed of all those who are faithful to Him and His Word; any local assembly is a genuine Christian church as long as it remains loyal to the teaching of the Lord and abounds in love and good works.
It is wrong to equate 'the church of Christ' (which is made up of all true believers in the different churches) with a particular institution (the Church of Rome). The two are not the same. While some Catholics are genuinely saved and are true members of Jesus' church, yet the church of Christ is not limited by the boundaries of the Roman institution. All Christians in the various churches and movements form the body of Christ. Jesus' promise to build and protect His church refers to these dear people for whom He shed His blood, and not an institution which at times descended to the very pit of hell in corruption, greed, superstition, arrogance and crass immorality.
2. The Catholic Church had fallen into serious doctrinal error.
The promise of Jesus to build and protect His church cannot be used to cover up the mistakes and false doctrines that creep into the organized church. We cannot say that since this church is a true church of Christ, all its teaching must be correct. It is enough to look at some legitimate churches in the New Testament - Corinth and the churches in the region of Galatia for instance - to see that serious errors may creep into the church. These were not sectarian or heretical; these churches were genuinely Christian, and yet the apostle Paul wrote to them to correct their doctrinal and practical errors. So, in principle, it's perfectly acceptable to say that the Catholic Church before the Reformation included a large number of genuine Christians, but that does not mean that there weren't serious doctrinal errors in the church. The Reformation was, if you like, a spring cleaning of the house of God from some of the abuses and heresies that crept in during the centuries. It was not a starting from scratch. What was good and biblical was retained, what was in error was swept away.
“Where was the church before the Reformation?” is akin to asking, “Where were you before you took a bath?” Sadly most of the Roman authorities did not repent of their erroneous ways. They lost a golden opportunity at the Council of Trent, and ended up cursing those who believe the biblical Gospel. The modern Roman church remains obstinate to this day.
3. The teaching of the modern Catholic Church is different from that of the old Catholic church.
It is easy to be deceived by words. “The Catholic Church was the church before the Reformation..." is misleading because the doctrinal character of the modern Catholic Church is altogether different from the teaching of the old Catholic churches. We can mention the evolution of the hierarchy, papal supremacy and papal infallibility, the veneration of statues and praying to the saints, purgatory, the mass as a propitiatory sacrifice, transubstantiation, auricular confession, the rosary, the Marian dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. These doctrines and practices originated sooner or later in the history of the Catholic Church, but they were absent in apostolic churches and the early post-apostolic era. Rome’s latest theological novelty is the assurance that members of other religions can be saved - a theory that was flatly denied by previous popes and councils.
Things which were unknown and even condemned in the old Catholic churches are now essential and characteristic features of the modern Roman Catholic Church. There is historical continuity, of course, and the name is the same. But the substance is different!
Conclusion
The church can be compared to a vine. There are many branches connected to the main trunk, just as there are many local churches spiritually united to their head, Jesus. Over the years some branches have withered and were cut off - some churches have fallen in apostasy, just as Christ warned: “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lamp-stand from its place—unless you repent” (Revelation 2:5). Other churches were largely destroyed by persecution. Christ promises them, “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10). In either case, although these churches do not exist any longer, we would be wrong to say that they weren’t living branches of the vine. Moreover, when the vine is dressed, and branches are cut off, new branches sprout forth, and the vine remains alive. Though these branches are relatively new, they are nonetheless vitally united to the vine. The churches that arose at a later date in history are also churches of Christ if they are spiritually united to Him by the Spirit. Their vitality is shown by their faith in Christ, obedience to His Word and love for one another. On the other hand, an old branch may boast about its longevity, and yet it may be withering and produces little or no fruit. After all, there are some genuine Christians in Babylon (whom the Lord calls to come out of her), and yet Babylon itself will remain to the end until it is judged and destroyed by the Lord.
Copyright Dr Joe Mizzi. Permission to copy and distribute this article without textual changes. < BACK TO Q&A
http://www.justforcatholics.org/a180.htm
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
1 Corinthians 3:
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by bjhulk:
quote:
Not Biblical.
For Jesus said,
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
If you don't have the truth in you, you can't understand one verse and how it's applied to the whole story. The truth is the whole story and I can see clearly that you're totally lost without the story.
The only thing clearly seen here is your sillyness.
Repent while the day is yet called day.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by bjhulk:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by bjhulk:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Dude you need to be born again.
Romans 10:
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
This religion of yours has handy capped you Spiritually and impaired you mentally.
And I ashur you,
if you keep on trying to forwarded it here you will be banned by the owner.
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
You have no idea what being born again means. Not one Christian has ever been a chosen one of God's and become a born again sinless saint. You might as well toss your Bible into the fire because it isn't doing you any good. All it did was deceive you of the true God. You don't even know who you're talking to. That's how blind you are.
Dude you need some serious Spiritual help.
God doesn't need any help at all but you sure do. You're as blind as a door and deaf as a doorknob. You didn't even notice the door was locked.
Not Biblical.
For Jesus said,
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by bjhulk:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Dude you need to be born again.
Romans 10:
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
This religion of yours has handy capped you Spiritually and impaired you mentally.
And I ashur you,
if you keep on trying to forwarded it here you will be banned by the owner.
You have no idea what being born again means. Not one Christian has ever been a chosen one of God's and become a born again sinless saint. You might as well toss your Bible into the fire because it isn't doing you any good. All it did was deceive you of the true God. You don't even know who you're talking to. That's how blind you are.
Dude you need some serious Spiritual help.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Dude you need to be born again.
Romans 10:
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
This religion of yours has handy capped you Spiritually and impaired you mentally.
And I ashur you,
if you keep on trying to forwarded it here you will be banned by the owner.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by bjhulk:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Why don't read this? It will show you what Christianity is about and that it's not from God, even though he used this false religion to carry the scriptures to me 25 years ago. Now God is using those vocabulary words to inspire before he has me write and speak them. It's not the words that are the truth. He inspires them by arranging the words according to his knowledge, which is the truth. That's why the scriptures are no good for the truth unless God interprets them. All the words were changed by copying, translating and editing in lies and deleting out inspired words they didn't like. Not one person has ever been led to the truth through the scriptures.
John 5
37: And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;
38: and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent.
39: You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
40: yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
God is who you need to make you sinless and receive his knowledge, which is the truth. Without the truth, it's impossible to interpret the scriptures. Jesus knew the Pharisees couldn't interpret them.
The Lord Rebuke you again....
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Repent while the day is yet called day.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Ed wrote:
quote:
How can you call it a big success when is over 33,000 different denominations worldwide and more in the process of startig up ?
That number includes Catholics and others who are not Protestant.
_________________________________________________
The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"
by PhilVaz
Now for a few facts and stats from the actual source: World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001).
The source does refer to 33000+ total "Christian" denominations, but it defines the word "denomination" as an organized Christian group within a specific country:
“Denominations. A denomination is defined in this Encyclopedia as an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country; i.e. as an organized Christian church or tradition or religious group or community of believers, within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions. As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries, these denominations themselves being composed of over 3,400,000 worship centers, churches or congregations.” (Barrett et al, volume 1, page 16, Table 1-5, emphasis added)
So we have, according to Barrett's Encyclopedia:
- A denomination is defined as existing within a specific country
- There are 33,000+ total of these "Christian denominations" in 238 total countries
- These 33,000 are subdivided into "6 major ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs",
- And ordering them by denomination size we have (I am rounding up or down slightly for convenience, using year 2000 figures) :
Independents (about 22000)
Protestants (about 9000)
"Marginals" (about 1600)
Orthodox (781)
Roman Catholics (242)
Anglicans (168)
So the 33,000 number is from the total of these 6 mega-blocs:
22000 + 9000 + 1600 + 781 + 242 + 168 = 33,000+
That's where the 33,000 figure comes from. If you count the "mega-bloc" of "Protestants" only it is 9000 / 33000 or 27% of the total. However, if you combine Protestants with Independents and Anglicans ( [22000 + 9000 + 168] / 33000) it is 94% of the total or 31,000+ . We will see below that most (about 97%) of the "Independent" churches are indeed Protestants.
http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
God bless you Ed. I know you weren't trying to cause trouble.
FYI: At the top of each post are some icons. If you click on the icon that looks like quotation marks  then it will copy that post for you so you can respond to it easily. If you only want to quote a part of someone's post then highlight what you want, right-click, copy, click the "Post Reply" button as usual, click the "QUOTE" button from the list under the window, then paste what you copied between the two "QUOTE" tags.
You can also change or add to your own posts by clicking the icon that looks like a piece of paper and a pencil. 
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Concerning the Protestant Reformation, here is an article that I think is very good:
Was the Protestant Reformation a Failure?
(This article by Dr. George Bartoli, a former Roman Catholic scholar, was given to the Knox Club in 1910, but despite the time which has elapsed since it was given it brings before us the picture of a Church and system which does not and indeed cannot change without becoming something entirely different. Some dated material has been deleted. - Ed.)
We are told that the Reformation of the sixteenth century attained none of the objects for which our forefathers rose in revolt against the tyranny of Rome. We, on the contrary, affirm that to the Protestant Reformation we owe:
Our present political liberties.
Our religious liberties.
Our world progress of the present day.
I affirm, and with reason, that we owe our political liberties to the Protestant Reformation of the sixteenth century. Of course, political liberty did not follow the Reformation at once. It was a fruit, which in different parts of Europe took a longer or shorter time to ripen, but the connection between the Reformation and the political liberties of Europe is undeniable. To prove this I am not going to quote dates and bring forth facts from European history. They are so well known to most of you that that is quite unnecessary. I shall merely make an observation. In the Vatican Archives a vast number of letters are preserved, which were written by the Popes to the various emperors, kings, and princes of Europe, between the years 1500 and 1700; i.e. during the whole period of the Reformation. Now, the Popes of Rome never tired of warning those rulers not to make any religious concessions to their people, because religious liberty necessarily brings with it political liberty; and the people, who today clamour for self-government in religious matters, will tomorrow demand self-government in politics. Today they rise against the Church; tomorrow they will rebel against the State. That those Popes were not in error in thus thinking, subsequent events eloquently demonstrated.
The Protestant Reformation made parliaments more general all over Europe; and the liberties of Protestant England became in course of time the liberties of nearly all the States of Europe. There were some exceptions, however. The religious movement, headed by Luther, was crushed in Spain, in Portugal, and in the States of the Church of Rome; those kingdoms and states had to wait for the French Revolution to set them free. What the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ could not do - because prevented by the low depravity of man - was done by the sword, the fire, and slaughter, at the hands of an infuriated mob. The princes and nobles of Europe would not listen to the gently voice of the Gospel. They heard the roar of the cannon, the din of battle, and had to yield to the bloody axe of the executioner. Peaceful, quiet, prosperous England, sheltering the French refugees at the time of Robespierre and Danton, is an object lesson of what we owe to Protestantism. In a Protestant country a French Revolution is impossible.
The Protestant Reformation did away with the "divine right of kings". What was that? It was a political and religious theory whereby kings and princes believed themselves to be seated on their thrones solely by Divine appointment and authority. Their people had nothing to do with it. Hence they were responsible for their conduct and deeds to none, save God alone, and to his supposed Vicar on earth, the Pope. The horrors, tragedies, and the carnival of blood which this infamous "Divine rights of Kings" has brought upon England, Scotland, Germany, France, Spain, Russia, Italy and generally throughout Europe, are beyond description, and will shame for ever the corrupt Christianity of the Middle Ages. For this fanciful divine right of kings was a distinct feature of Mediaeval Catholicism.
According to the conception of Roman theologians, Catholicism is a huge empire, a gigantic trust, a monopoly of divine things held by one man on earth - the Pope; and possessed by one Church only - the Roman Catholic Church. The Pope is the supreme ruler of Christendom. Emperors, kings, and princes receive, by him and through him alone, their authority. They govern their respective peoples in his stead. They recognise their authority to be derived from him, who, in his capacity of Vice-God on earth, can confer states and kingdoms, crowns and sceptres, on any man whom he is pleased with, and can dispossess at will the oldest dynasty in the world. It maintains that God has given to the Pope two swords; the spiritual and the temporal. The former he wields himself, the latter is handed by him to emperors and kings that they may use it on his behalf and at his command. In this system emperors, kings and princes are the Pope's executioners. So the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, in the imperialistic conception of the Church of Rome, was but her principal sword-bearer, her chief executioner, her first servant, her humble tool.
The Popes of Rome have had a fair chance of turning the world into a paradise, by following up their system of pontifical government; but they have miserably failed. What the Popes could not achieve during at least ten long centuries, when they ruled supreme over emperors, kings, princes, bishops and Christians throughout Europe, they will not be able to do today. Let not the Protestants of Europe be beguiled into thinking that the Church of Rome has changed. Her rulers are certainly better; but her system is anti-Christian, corrupt, offending, damnable and ruinous as ever.
The second benefit which the Protestant Reformation bestowed upon the Christian people was religious liberty, or freedom of conscience. We are apt now to make little of this great gift of Almighty God; and this for two reasons: first, because we have long been enjoying it; secondly, because, unfortunately, we have grown indifferent to religious doctrines and divine things. Rationalism and false science have thrown a sad doubt over almost all the Christian truths that were dear to our forefathers; and our hearts, no longer glowing with an ardent love for the inspired Word of God, do not feel indignant at a priestly caste's endeavours to rob the Christian people of its most cherished treasure - the liberty of worshipping God according to the directions of the Gospel. Not so with our forefathers. They believed that Christianity rested on the Word of God and on it alone, and they asked for liberty to follow the teaching of the Gospel, and to mould their worship and creed on it.
Picture to your imagination what your ancestors suffered from the Roman Catholic authorities on behalf of their faith. Think of your Scottish Martyrs, and of the vastly greater number who suffered in each of the following countries - England, France, Germany, The Netherlands, Spain, and even Italy. It is true that Protestants also persecuted and shed the blood of their Roman Catholic brethren. But between the persecutions of the Protestant and Roman Catholic Churches, there is a very marked difference. The Romish Church protests even to this day, that she had a right to persecute heretics, and to put them to death; whereas Protestant Churches all over the world have abjured this diabolical doctrine, and have condemned it in their authoritative books, and in the consciences of their followers. Liberty of conscience has become a sacred thing with Protestants; it is pretty common among Roman Catholic infidels; but it is an exception amongst devout Roman Catholics; it is considered an error and a perverse doctrine by the Romish Church, and a damnable heresy by the Bishops of Rome. The fact is, that intolerance, persecution and oppression of all Churches but her own, is such an essential part of the Romish system, that it will exist as long as the Romish Church continues to exist; and were the Romish Church to obtain once more her old influence in the Christian world, we would again see in the Christian world all the horrors of the Spanish and Roman Inquisitions.
Nor is the right of worshipping God according to conscience the only right of a Christian. There are other rights besides; sacred rights brought down from heaven to each one of us by our Lord Jesus Christ - the right of studying the Scriptures, of reading the Gospel, and of preaching the Word of God. Rome has deprived her people of these rights. She has reserved the right of reading and preaching the Word of God to a caste of paid servants, who are slaves to her will, who are in spiritual bondage to her. The Church of Rome does not permit her children to read, study or comment on the Word of God; that is to say, they may do so, but only "ad mentem Ecclesiae" - according to the mind of the Church. What is the mind of the Church? No one really knows; because the Church does not exist as an abstract idea, but as a concrete body of men. In the Romish system, the Church does not comprise the Christian people at all. Properly so called, it is the ecclesiastical body and no one else. The clergy are the rulers, they form the Church. It is theirs to decide what is right or wrong; what false or true, what books may be safely read and what must be avoided. Thus again we come to the imperialistic conception of the Church of Rome. The Word of God is in bondage. The Word of God is not free. You cannot preach the Gospel without permission from man. In vain the Holy Ghost urges you to do so. In vain God has given you an enlightened mind and a warm heart for it. If you are not a priest, if you are not sent by the Church, you cannot preach. If you happen to be a woman you are commanded to hold your tongue. Women cannot evangelise, though Jesus bade Mary Magdalene go and proclaim her Risen Lord to her brethren. The Church of Rome forbids even the best Christian men to deliver the Message of Christ, unless authorised to do so by her. Is not this slavery? Is not this bondage? Is the Roman system Christianity? Is it not rather a pagan system of philosophy, studied by and divulged to a small secret circle, a chosen few, and hidden from the common people, lest the latter, becoming equally in knowledge with their teachers, should rebel against them?
Finally, the Protestant Reformation won for us the possibility of making progress towards civilisation, towards the goal of human perfection.
There is no growth and progress in science, in art, in literature, in politics, where there is no liberty of thought. Freedom from restraint is the first condition of growth. No plant, no animal, no created thing, nothing under the canopy of heaven can grow to perfection, can develop all its natural qualities and properties, without liberty. When powerful enough to do so, the Church of Rome, consistently with her own system, deprives man of liberty, and man sinks into degradation. Look at the countries which for centuries have been under the undisputed yoke of Rome: Spain, South Italy, Portugal, South America, and other parts of the world. They are the most backward, ignorant, and superstitious countries in the Christian world. Nor is this to be attributed to the want of talent or lack of genius in these people. Far from it! The reason is always the same. Those nations could not grow to a full manhood, because they were kept for centuries and centuries in political and spiritual bondage. They awake now to liberty; but in many cases, alas, not to liberty; but to disorder, anarchy, licentiousness. And thus it always is with man. The human pendulum swings continually from one extreme to the opposite, never resting for one moment in the golden mean.
If the Protestant Reformation did not transform the world, it was because in many nations it stopped short, and did not dare to introduce into the political life of those nations the teachings of the Gospel. It is easier to destroy than to build; to pull down than to raise up. The Reformation destroyed the power of the Church of Rome; so far, so good; but in some cases and in a few places, for one despotic Church another Church, equally despotic and tyrannical, was substituted; and above all, it neglected to put aside all human systems and inventions, and to embrace fully the glorious Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Let Protestant nations take heed. The Reformation of the sixteenth century is not merely an historical fact: it is a principle. The principle of Christian liberty against pagan slavery and thought-bondage. The nations which disparage and condemn the Protestant Reformation are ripe for slavery and bondage. It is not the body only which grows old, weak and infirm; the mind and the soul also grow spiritually feeble and decay. Death will pray on them - the death of freedom - by the unnatural bondage of peoples to one man!
Taken from 'The Bulwark'
http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/was-protestant-reformation-failure
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ed Fisher
unregistered
|
posted
Carol Swenson Stated
I think pedophiles are the epitome of evil. I'm just saying don't blame Ed for what other people have done. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greetings Carol:
Thank you for your words.i was just only trying to state what I know and somehow it got turned into a mud ball fight. I did not intend for that to happen. I will not deny that I am not Catholic,because, I am .I will not cut down any protestant Church / Denomination. We are here to lift up the body of Christ. When we engauge in language that promotes arguments and indvidualism , we only proceed in distorting the whole view of THE BODY OF CHRIST.
Again I say to you Carol, Thank You
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
I think pedophiles are the epitome of evil. I'm just saying don't blame Ed for what other people have done.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
crixus
Advanced Member
Member # 8527
|
posted
I don't care what you do Carol, or what Ed thinks. I told the truth and that's all that matters. The sources you sight are obviously biased. I could post opposing sources, but I'm bored with this board. *There's only one thing worse than a child molestor and that's people that make excuses for them and/or ignore the problem. But Satan sure loves them, that's for sure. And now that I know that he has influence on this board...I'm gone. I made my point and will follow Jesus to the end, and no one else.
Vaya con Dios. ![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
--------------------
Keepin' the faith!
Posts: 26 | From: California | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
crixus
Shall I bash you because of what some Protestants have done? Shall I hold you accountable for what Protestants did a long time ago? How about the Salem Witch Trials where so many women were murdered? Was that your fault?
In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
This is not a Catholic message board. Ed knows that and I hope he will respect it, but don't blame him for things he didn't do.
Perspective
As the platoons of political correctness pile on regarding priestly pedophilia, it's important to keep in mind another "p" word: perspective.
An objective analysis of the situation suggests, first, that the Catholic church is no worse than others when it comes to the incidence of child molesters in its ranks. Second, whatever the failings of the Catholic hierarchy in dealing with this appalling problem (and they are legion), those sins pale in comparison to the blatant hypocrisy of the Church's enemies on this issue.
In fact, some of those adversaries inadvertently assist the process of placing the scandal in context. Sylvia Demarest, a Texas lawyer, won a $119 million jury award on behalf of former altar boys abused in Dallas, and tracked allegations against priests in every part of the country. She told the Washington Post that her updated list of priests who stand accused of molesting children will reach 1,500 names – representing about 2 percent of the 60,000 priests who have served in the United States since 1984. Even this modest percentage may overstate the problem, since no one would suggest that every member of clergy who stands accused of pedophilia is actually guilty of the crime.
Ms. Demarest's numbers conform with estimates by Thomas Plante, a California psychologist at Santa Clara University who treats priests who have molested minors. "The best data we have is that approximately 5 percent of priests have a predilection toward minors," he declared. "That seems consistent with other clergy who are not priests (such as Protestant ministers or rabbis)." Moreover, Plante cites research suggesting that among the general population, 8 percent feel sexually attracted to children – a higher percentage than among priests or other clergy. Such numbers, or course, reflect those who feel sexually drawn to contact with kids, rather than indicating the percentage who actually act upon this inclination.
The Washington Post, an establishment liberal journal with no reason to whitewash the church, approvingly cites Gary Schoener, a psychologist in Minneapolis whose Walk-In Counseling Center has consulted with more than 1,000 victims of sexual abuse by clergy. He also affirms that the percentage of abusers among Catholic priests is no higher than among Protestant ministers.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=13263
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
crixus
Advanced Member
Member # 8527
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Fisher:
crixus stated :
Regarding the Protestant Reformation. I suggest that all Christians take the time read Fox's Book of Martyrs. When you think back on all the sacrifices that our brothers and sisters made in the past, it's hard not to conclude that the Reformation has been a big success. Prior to that time Protestants lived in fear and couldn't practice their faith publicly. We all face some sort of persecution, but it's nothing compared to what our predecessors went through. And thank's to their sacrifices (and the blood of Jesus), we Protestants don't have to meet secretly or worry about being burned at the stake by Catholics anymore. We have it pretty easy in comparison and I am very thankful. Praise the Lord! *The church I go to (Calvary Chapel) has alot of Ex-Catholics attending. They finally got tired of all the lies & cover ups regarding Pedophile Priests, etc.
--------------------
Keepin' the faith!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greetings Friend:
You Stated that "Regarding the Protestant Reformation. I suggest that all Christians take the time read Fox's Book of Martyrs. When you think back on all the sacrifices that our brothers and sisters made in the past, it's hard not to conclude that the Reformation has been a big success."
How can you call it a big success when is over 33,000 different denominations worldwide and more in the process of startig up ?
You had mentioned something about Pedophile Priests.I did the math , only 2% of all Catholic Priest were convicted this discusting crime.
I use to attend Calavary Chapel ,I did not feel fulfilled there . I attend a Roman Catholic Church , I feel like I am back at home with Jesus.
Unfortunately your church puts Jesus in the backseat when they pray to their false idols like Mary and the Saints, and believe in superstitions. And that 2% is what the Catholic church (finally) admits to, but it's not the real number. Just the fact that they would lie about it and move around Pedophile Priests for decades to try to cover it up (should) tell you something, unless you have blinders on like alot of you Catholics do. It's called denial my friend. Praying the rosary, rubbing your beads and confessing to man won't get you into Heaven. And yes it's been a huge success because were (Protestants) still here, several hundred years later. Your Catholic church tried in vain to destroy us, but couldn't. Lastly, there was never just one Protestant denomination. It's a movement, not a lone denomination. The more the merrier, thank's be 2 Jesus! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
--------------------
Keepin' the faith!
Posts: 26 | From: California | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ed Fisher
unregistered
|
posted
crixus stated :
Regarding the Protestant Reformation. I suggest that all Christians take the time read Fox's Book of Martyrs. When you think back on all the sacrifices that our brothers and sisters made in the past, it's hard not to conclude that the Reformation has been a big success. Prior to that time Protestants lived in fear and couldn't practice their faith publicly. We all face some sort of persecution, but it's nothing compared to what our predecessors went through. And thank's to their sacrifices (and the blood of Jesus), we Protestants don't have to meet secretly or worry about being burned at the stake by Catholics anymore. We have it pretty easy in comparison and I am very thankful. Praise the Lord! *The church I go to (Calvary Chapel) has alot of Ex-Catholics attending. They finally got tired of all the lies & cover ups regarding Pedophile Priests, etc.
--------------------
Keepin' the faith!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greetings Friend:
You Stated that "Regarding the Protestant Reformation. I suggest that all Christians take the time read Fox's Book of Martyrs. When you think back on all the sacrifices that our brothers and sisters made in the past, it's hard not to conclude that the Reformation has been a big success."
How can you call it a big success when is over 33,000 different denominations worldwide and more in the process of startig up ?
You had mentioned something about Pedophile Priests.I did the math , only 2% of all Catholic Priest were convicted this discusting crime.
I use to attend Calavary Chapel ,I did not feel fulfilled there . I attend a Roman Catholic Church , I feel like I am back at home with Jesus.
IP: Logged |
|
|
crixus
Advanced Member
Member # 8527
|
posted
Regarding the Protestant Reformation. I suggest that all Christians take the time read Fox's Book of Martyrs. When you think back on all the sacrifices that our brothers and sisters made in the past, it's hard not to conclude that the Reformation has been a big success. Prior to that time Protestants lived in fear and couldn't practice their faith publicly. We all face some sort of persecution, but it's nothing compared to what our predecessors went through. And thank's to their sacrifices (and the blood of Jesus), we Protestants don't have to meet secretly or worry about being burned at the stake by Catholics anymore. We have it pretty easy in comparison and I am very thankful. Praise the Lord! *The church I go to (Calvary Chapel) has alot of Ex-Catholics attending. They finally got tired of all the lies & cover ups regarding Pedophile Priests, etc.
--------------------
Keepin' the faith!
Posts: 26 | From: California | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Do Protestants of the old/new america trouble you so?
Explain.
A. As it matters to then.
B. As it matters to now.
But less than 57 words.
I think that should give your ability challenge.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
If I did not make clear my point that God still can and does save individuals even when the collective body is on a false track...
So long as that individual believes in the true Jesus...
The failed Reformation does not mean no one has been saved during that time.
Ancient Israel is our example all through the failures in the wilderness and the book of Judges and even in 1 Samuel 8 when the people wanted a king like the pagans had. This is true also about the Temple in 2 Samuel 7:12-13 which for the record was supposed to be built by:
Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJV)
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
And that Temple is not a physical building but us:
1 Corinthians 3:16-18 (KJV)
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1 Peter 2:3-9 (KJV)
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
But God dealt with ancient Israel through the failures in the monarchy and the Temple.
BTW God did ordain Moses to build the tent tabernacle
Hebrews 8:5 (KJV)
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
But no such provision was made for Solomon (who is a prefiguring of the antichrist).
IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
No conclusion was jumped to. I haven't made one yet. That's why I asked...
There is a group whose name escapes me that places particular emphasis on "YAHshua." So I asked.
BTW... a Roman Catholic who believes in the Triune God is at least on the right track. Oneness Pentecostals (Modalists) aren't even on the right track. Unless the one you go to is not part of UPC... then you might ask them about their view of the Trinity.
IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
I belong to no denomination!
I attend churches of many back grounds and have the respect and friendship of many Pastors....the list includes ....
Baptist
Assemble of God
Amish
German Baptist
Mennonite
Oneness Pentecost
Disciples of Yahshua
Wesleyan Holiness
one good brother in Fort Collins, Co who practiced closed communion...the Lord allowed me to show him from scripture that closed communion was an unholy practice and praise Yahweh he changed.
I may have posted some pages that lead you to a false conclusion about me ....many people are guilty of jumping to decision before they gather all the facts....
I address error where ever I find it and I enjoy Truth with whoever and where-ever I find it.
But there is no Truth to be found in the Roman Catholic Church...none!
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
John, There is ...was... and always will be "the True Church" that was born after Yahshua's death,burial and resurrection and the sending of the Holy Spirit....
Please refresh my memory... what church denomination do you belong to?
I seem to recall the "Yahshua" emphasis with the huge tapestry artistry and the teacher using pointing sticks to highlight areas of that tapestry on which they taught...
is that your church or am I getting it confused with something else?
IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
It was not a failure. Only God knows the number of people reached in the world by Missionaries taught from pulpits in America. Without the Protestant Movement, we would still believe that we could save our loved ones by paying for an expensive Mass after their death, or that we are saved because we were Baptized as an infant.
No it has not failed.
betty
I did not say the Protestant Movement was an aberration... I said it did not go far enough to reform from Catholicism. And that despite both Proestantism and Catholicism God managed to save the remnant (those he foreknew / predestined for salvation) all these years.
I am not a calvinist or armenian but I believe that no one who God foreknew would believe in Jesus falls through the cracks of human ineptness in witnessing or church organization.
My only point is that the divisions and the post-Christian eventuality of the Protestant movement comes from not reforming enough to the 4th Century CE church...
IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
John, There is ...was... and always will be "the True Church" that was born after Yahshua's death,burial and resurrection and the sending of the Holy Spirit....
Satan has always been active trying to thwart the plan of Yahweh....
if you study Church history you will find in the period after Constantine had brought paganism into the Church and the Reformation began ....and the Roman Wh!ore was killing Protestants and the Protestants were killing Roman Wh!ores ...you had a group that both the Roman Wh!ores and the Protestants were killing ....they were called the anti Baptist....
now in the day we live The Reformation is still in progress... that which has been stolen from the Body of Yahshua is being restored...
those that have ears to hear the Spirit of Yahweh do not / will not bow at the alter of pagan beliefs...
What happen to a house built on sand?
Yahweh has a voice in every generation... preaching all the Truth they have received..
quote:
I am saying the Protestant Movement did not reform far enough
I am in full agreement
and Betty in your heart, do you feel the Church today is the same Glorious organism it was it the book of Acts... or does your heart burn to see the Glory of Yahweh return to His Church?
Did the Protestant Reformation Movement fail?
no it has not failed...it is not over!
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
It was not a failure. Only God knows the number of people reached in the world by Missionaries taught from pulpits in America. Without the Protestant Movement, we would still believe that we could save our loved ones by paying for an expensive Mass after their death, or that we are saved because we were Baptized as an infant.
No it has not failed.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
Does than not tell you that we must at the very least rethink the thing?
That maybe we are going about it the wrong way somehow?
Reminder: Catholicism is worse and the source of the problem... so I am reminding all that I am not arguing for Roman Catholicism. I am saying the Protestant Movement did not reform far enough and I am getting at the goal it ought to have reformed towards but did not even have on its agenda... the conditions of the pre-4th Century CE Church organism in the image of God (versus the Church organization behemoth it became in the image of man).
IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
the Reformation movement has never been over for True Believers...True believers are never content with their knowledge of Yahweh or their relationship with Yahshua....True believers are always digging deeper and reaching higher...
Are you then saying there is no substantial difference in the Church since Constantine legalized Christianity than before? Or are you indicating you believe it is better than it was then?
And what of the evidence I cited? The post-Christian era where in all cases the Reformation went from evangelical outreach to retreat into its buildings to what amounts to be (in Revelation terminology) removed lampstands and rubble.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Amen becauseHElives...and reaching out to others.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
the Reformation movement has never been over for True Believers...True believers are never content with their knowledge of Yahweh or their relationship with Yahshua....True believers are always digging deeper and reaching higher...
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
Just what I have been saying.
Christianity was infiltrated / taken over by man through tradition and structure. Hence the blank expression on most faces when they are shown that the priesthood is not exclusively of the seminary graduate nor of the governmental structure of the church organization... but of every believer who is the Church organism.
So, most Christian duties / ministry is neglected or passed along to the professional Christians making the numbers of believers in actual ministry very small (in other words manageable / containable for the enemy)... and the fields white unto harvest for 2000 years have been reaped only by less than a skeleton crew of believers who are burdened with the duties passed onto them by the inactive believers as well as being burdened with maintaining the tradition and structure...
Evangelism suffers a major hit here.
Church congregations should be spiritual hospitals or spiritual universities cranking out healed souls / educated souls to join or return to the spiritual front lines to do battle with the enemy and to win souls to Christ and seed new congregations...
The effect was to infest, infect, overcome and conquer this putrefying and dark world with the salt of healing and the light of truth for the goal of saving souls.
IP: Logged |
|
|
TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
|
posted
What specific standards do you apply to the reformation in your evaluation of its effects? Being "salt" is not a clear enough standard to understand the effects that you are apparently seeking.
--------------------
Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
And the post-Christian eras that follow in all cases (with a garrison Catholicism lingering behind where it did not exist or was much smaller before)... tells you what?
Protestantism is just another kind of catholicism (since it did not reform near enough... back to the Hebraic roots of the faith)... most early Protestant denominations are so much like Roman Catholicism they are simply Pope-less.
IP: Logged |
|
|
TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
|
posted
John,
I think that in order to evaluate the "success" of the reformation one should look at the world-wide history of Christianity and not just the statistics for its records in the US. I think that one significant accomplishment of the reformation is the modern missionary movement into Asia and Africa. One of its initial leaders was William Carey who went to India in 1793 from England, and Adoniram Judson was another missionary who went from America to Burma in 1812. There are other leaders of note-worthy ministries before and after these as the effects of the reformation spread throughout the Catholic and Protestant churches of Europe. A good review of church history should give you a better evaluation of the effects of the reformation throughout the world.
--------------------
Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
Be ye salt... salt that loses its savor is worth nothing but to be thrown out onto the dung heap or the path to be tread under the feet of man...
IP: Logged |
|
|
TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
|
posted
John,
You ask, quote:
So, has the Reformation movement failed?
The answer depends upon what standard of success that you apply to the movement. I don't think that numbers have ever been an important standard of success for any of God's operations. What standard would you apply to evaluate the Reformation?
--------------------
Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
Take America for example. Protestants came to evangelize the new world. By the America Revolution Protestant Christianity was in the majority... of 13 small colonies... and very small populations by today's standards.
I am quite rusty on the precise stats but the percentages of Roman Catholics in 1776 America was under 5%, Jews under 3% and atheists / agnostics under 1% (if memory serves).
Today the Roman Catholics are the largest "denomination" with Southern Baptists running a distant second place. Atheism and agnosticism have run amok. It runs the market place the schools entertainment and news...
And the Jewish population and religion has increased in this country outnumbering the Jews who live in the Holy Land...
So, has the Reformation movement failed?
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
