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Author Topic: The Heart
WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I am a Christian...Christians do not have religion; they have a relationship with Jesus.

Yes yes of course. What religion were you before you had the law written on your heart? Was the Question, stop grand standing already. It is clear to all that your a supper duper saint.

[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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I am a Christian...Christians do not have religion; they have a relationship with Jesus.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
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becauseHElives what religion were you?

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That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
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Well your almost there.

You are still posting a mix of Physical return to that in the clouds and that after ,

"4. WHO will, (3.5 years later according to Dan 9:27) sit in the temple as God, as the abomination of desolation "

You seamed to have skip over the 1st three items on the list of your law/grace gospel.

[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
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here is a link to prove wildB a liar and a false witness...

WildB said I have posted
quote:
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004279#000024

here is what I have taught and believe about the Harpazo...

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/7/1135037192-8997.html

caught up=HARPAZO=Rapture

Many Scriptures on Rapture "catching away"

Rapture in: 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15:
There is no debate that 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15 teach on the rapture. Both chapters also teach the resurrection and of the trumpet blast. Neither chapter mentions anything about having to endure the tribulation before the rapture comes. There is no debate that Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 teach on the physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power after the tribulation. Neither of those chapters speak of the rapture, nor of a resurrection, nor of a trumpet blast.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

[caught up=HARPAZO=Rapture]

1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

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Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


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The Seven Churches; One is promised an Escape through the "open door" from the Great Tribulation

To Thyatira:
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

To Philadelphia:
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

To Laodiceans:
[Rev 3:16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. [out into tribulation as in Rev. 2:22]

[Revelation 4:1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

[Rev 8:13] And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth [those not raptured?] by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!


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Feast of Trumpets (Open Door)
The Open Door and Last Trump are on the Feast of Trumpets, which is on the new moon. The new moon feast (holyday) is a shadow/prophesy of the Rapture. The open door is prominantly seen in the rapture verses of Rev 3:10, 4:1 & Matt 25:1-13.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday [festival], or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Ezek 46:1 "Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days; but on the sabbath day it shall be opened and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

Pss 81:3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.

Isa 26:2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.

Pss 118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:
Pss 118:20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

The Feast of Trumpets, on the new moon, is when the moon is turned to darkness. It is also "on a day or hour that no man knows" --which is an expression referring to this feast (and to a Jewish Wedding)-- because the new moon happens 29.5 days after the previous one, creating uncertainty of whether it will fall on the 29th or 30th day after the previous new moon, which is the first day of the month, thus the festival is traditionally celebrated for two days just to be sure.

Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

Num 29:1 And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.

Just as the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled all the spring feasts, and on each day of each feast, so too, will the fall feasts be fulfilled when Christ comes the second time, and in order, and on each day of each feast. The Feast of Trumpets points to the rapture, the Day of Atonement points to Satan's defeat, Tabernacles points to establishing the 1000 year kingdom. Trumpets is on the first, and Atonement is on the tenth. Excluding the days of the Festivals themselves, there are "seven days of Awe" or tribulation between them...including, 10.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


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2 Thess 2: Falling Away / Departure
All of the rapture positions (whether pretrib, midtrib, prewrath, posttrib) agree that the rapture happens before the day of the Lord. In 2 Thessalonians 2, the false report that the Day of the Lord was present meant, therefore, that the resurrection and rapture (the departure) had come and gone and was in the past. That the resurrection was past was a common false report, and is mentioned in 2 Timothy:

2 Tim 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Although the day of the Lord starts with the rapture, the presence of the Day of the Lord is wrath, darkness, trouble, and the tribulation. (Zeph 1:15) The tribulations described in 2 Thess 1 were erroneously thought to be the tribulations of the day of the Lord.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [rapture]
2 Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [day of the Lord/tribulation] is at hand [present].
2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [tribulation] shall not come [be present], except there come a falling away [departure/rapture] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thess 2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this?
2 Thess 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [the Church at the rapture]
2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

In other words,

1. I beg you by our rapture hope,
2. That you don't worry if you hear that the Day of the Lord and the tribulation is present
3. (Don't be deceived) ...unless the departure (rapture) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition
4. WHO will, (3.5 years later according to Dan 9:27) sit in the temple as God, as the abomination of desolation
5. Remember I told you this?
6. Now you know that it is your presence that withholds the man of sin, so that he will be revealed in due time.
7. For the antichrist is working now only a little, because we restrain him as we are here and pray, until the rapture, when we will be taken out of the way.
8. And then the antichrist will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy with the arrival of his presence.

2Thess 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.


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Jewish Wedding (a theme of the Feast of Trumpets) Bridal Chamber = Heaven
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Our "many mansions" are in heaven (Rev 21:2). Jesus went away to heaven in Acts 1. The words in Italics above are an expression, used by the groom in a Jewish Wedding. A groom would say those words to his bride and then leave to build an addition onto his father's house before returning for his bride. He returns for his bride in the middle of the night, as a thief, at an hour she might not think, with a loud cry, and a procession of trumpet blast and his friends saying "Behold! The Bridegroom Comes!" Entering our "bridal chamber/heavenly mansion" will be the start of the bridal week. This is shown in Isaiah, and indicates that the tribulation will occur while we are "hid in the bridal chambers or heaven".

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Being "hid in the Lord's house, or heaven during tribulation" is also seen in Psalm 27, which is to be read daily in the 30 days prior to the Feast of Trumpets.

Pss 27:4 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the
LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
Pss 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Pss 27:6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.

Hiding, being hid, having a place to hide away are themes of being hidden away in the bridal chamber during the wedding, as we will be hidden in heaven during the tribulation.

Zeph 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.


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The Church is the Bride of Christ.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

The Rapture is likened to a wedding, and from the Bible, we know a wedding lasts a week, we know the rapture will be pre tribulation. The scriptures define a marriage as being a week long event. (Bridal week) = (Tribulation week)

Judges 14:1-18 ...And Samson made a feast there, as was customary for bridegrooms. ...If you can give me the answer within the seven days of the feast... She cried the whole seven days of the feast.

Genesis 29:22-28 So Laban brought together all the people of the place and gave a feast. ... Finish this daughter's bridal week

The time of intimacy (the bride being with the bridegroom sealed away in the bridal chamber) begins at the start of the bridal week, and this is what we look forward to in the pre tribulation rapture.


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The Parable of the 10 virgins contains many themes of the rapture, the marriage, and the feast of trumpets.
[Mat 25:1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
[Mat 25:2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
[Mat 25:3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
[Mat 25:4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
[Mat 25:5] While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
[Mat 25:6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
[Mat 25:7] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
[Mat 25:8] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
[Mat 25:9] But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
[Mat 25:10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
[Mat 25:11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
[Mat 25:12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
[Mat 25:13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


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At the end of the tribulation, people are in heaven (the bride, the Church),
and coming down out of heaven, because they have been there for 7 years.
[Luke 12:36] And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

[Rev 19:1] And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven [the raptured], saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

[Rev 19:7] Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
[Rev 19:8] it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure"--for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
[Rev 19:9] And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are true words of God."

[Rev 19:14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him [the raptured] upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

[Mat 24:29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[Mat 24:30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[Mat 24:31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[Zech 14:5] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

[Jud 1:14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

[Col 3:4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Interesting verse number: 12:12 12 is written all over New Jerusalem, and there are 24 elders in heaven after the rapture in Rev. 4:1.

[Rev 12:12] Rejoice then, O heaven and you that dwell therein! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"

Yes, the Bride is in heaven, coming down out of heaven at the end of the tribulation:

[Rev 21:2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

[Rev 21:9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

[Rev 21:10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


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Mt. Zion & New Jerusalem: God's bride.
[Heb 12:22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[Isa 51:16] And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.


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Daniel's 70th Week [/B]
The 70th week of Daniel, which becomes the 7-year Tribulation, is a judgement and curse determined upon Isreal, not the Church.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


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The Church's sins are taken care of by Jesus' death, and we are not under the curse of the law, nor is the 70th week "to make an end for sins" determined for the Church.
[Gal 3:13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[Gal 5:18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[Rom 6:14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[1Cor 6:12] All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

There is no need for the tribulation to purge or cleanse the Church. The blood of Christ, and the Word of God, sanctifies and cleans the Church, and makes us spotless, and ready for the rapture now.

Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


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[B]Who has dominion? Satan or the Lord Jesus Christ's Church?
Satan will be given dominion for 42 months on earth, the second half of Daniel's 70th week, and the Church will not be put under Satan's dominion. The Church, given power by the Almighty Father in heaven, in the name of the Lord Jesus Chist, by the power of the Holy Spirit, restrains Satan, as was shown in 2 Thess 2. We know that Satan has not had full dominion over the Church, even though there are many Christian brothers dying still today, for if Satan did have this power, the Word of God would have been extinguished from the face of the earth by now. History alone proves that the Church is more powerful than Satan in this age, but the scriptures speak for themselves:

[Mark 3:14] And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
[Mark 3:15] And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
[Mark 6:7] And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
[Mark 6:13.4] And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
[Luke 9:1] Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
[Luke 10:19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
[Mat 10:8] Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Casting out Devils was not "just for the disciples only". Anyone can do this in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Mark 9:38.11] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[Mark 9:39] But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
[Mark 9:40] For he that is not against us is on our part.

Sucessfully casting out devils, does not make one "saved". Hence, if "unsaved" can cast out devils, then the Church surely has the power to restrain Satan.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

But Satan will be given dominion and power to dominate the other way around!

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So the Church must be raptured, "caught up", & Satan fights whoever is left over, the tribulation saints; those of the 7 churches who were spewed out into the time of testing, and repent and keep the commandments, and those foolish virgins in Matthew 25 who were expecting Christ's return, but were too busy with the world and caught unprepared.


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The man child ruler Raptured in Rev 12
...is Christ and the Church (Christ is the head, the Church is the Body)
The woman giving birth is not the Bride. Jesus comes for a virgin bride. The woman is Isreal (who gave birth to Christ and Christians), who Satan turns to persecute after the rapture. But she is protected by God, so Satan turns toward new believers who are the "remnant of her seed" --tribulation saints, people repent in the tribulation, after the rapture. The man child, the woman's first child, which is caught up [harpazo] to God, is the Church in the pretribulation rapture.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

All three charactistics of the man child (1, ruling over the nations, 2, with a rod of iron, 3 sitting on his throne), apply to both Christ AND the Church. Christ rules, and we rule as his bride:

Rev 2:26 He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations,
Rev 2:27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

That these characteristics apply to the Church, and that the man child represents the Church does not deny that the man child is Christ. Christ is an essential part of the Church, the HEAD!

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Since the other "seed" of the woman represents believers (Saints of the Tribulation), the man child also represents the many believers of the Church.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The man child nation is delivered, or caught up to God, before the travail, (the time of trouble, the tribulation, the Day of the Lord).

Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Christianity is a "nation".
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


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"Lights/Christians" are not in "Darkness/Day of Lord/tribulation!"

[Mat 5:14] Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
[Phil 2:15] That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

[John 8:12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

[Amos 5:18] Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
[Amos 5:20] Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

[Joel 2:1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
[Joel 2:2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
[Joel 2:31] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

[Mat 24:21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[Zeph 1:15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

[1Thess 5:4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[1Thess 5:5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

[Col 1:12] Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[Col 1:13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

So, another reason why Christians of the present age are not in that darkness, when Satan will have dominion, is:

[Mat 12:25] And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
[Mark 3:24] And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

We cannot effectively pray against Satan taking power, when God gives Satan power. It will be tough for the tribulation saints, God lets them be killed.

[Rev 13:10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

[Rev 14:12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
[Rev 14:13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


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Noah and Lot as examples of deliverance!
The Rapture is compared to Noah's and Lot's time when people are caught unaware going about their daily lives. Peter describes Noah and Lot as examples of the rapture, stressing deliverance.

2Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pet 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pet 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pet 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
2Pet 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

(The day of judgment is the day of the Lord, the time of trouble, the tribulation, the time of wrath, the time of testing, the time of temptation.)


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Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

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Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [Noah] were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The wicked people will be taking no notice, eating and drinking, before the rapture happens. People eathing, drinking, and feasting at marriage parties does not describe the tribulation, when famine will come upon the earth. See Rev 6:5-8, 18:8

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Not knowing the day or the hour.
The Feast of Trumpets happens on the "new moon", which is 29.5 days after the last one, meaning it might
occur on the 29th or 30th day, nobody knows for sure. "Of that day or hour no man knows" is an expression
referring to this feast, and thus, the rapture.

"Of that day or hour no man knows, but my Father only" is an expression used by a groom when asked
when he will go and steal away his bride like a thief in the night. He says this because it is his Father that will tell him when his preparations on the bridal chamber are completed and it is time.

Since the Feast of Trumpets is the "wedding of the Messiah", then this expression about "not knowing the day or the hour" refers to the rapture, and means that the rapture must take place on a Feast of Trumpets.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Mar 13:34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Thus, not knowing the day or the hour is a parable, and, as all parables, is designed to prevent unbelievers from understanding the meaning. See Matthew 13:10-17.

The reality is that believers WILL and CAN know the time, because this phrase indicates the Feast of Trumpets. Other verses on this topic plainly declare that not knowing is a punishment for the wicked servant:

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Since "not knowing what hour" is the punishment for not watching and a punishment for the unfaithful servant, it does not apply to faithful believers. And other scriptures confirm that we will know the hour:

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


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The Lord comes for his bride as a thief in the night to take her away in the marriage.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Luk 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Luk 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
Luk 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
Luk 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Because the "day or hour no man knows" refers to the marriage at the Feast of Trumpets, and because not knowing is a punishment for the evil servant, and because we are to "know perfectly", and because "we are not in darkness", then we can watch and be ready, because we DO KNOW when the thief will come. Like the goodman of the house, we should "be therefore ready".

Those who deny the pretribulation rapture are like the evil servant, they say something else; they say the master will delay his coming until after the tribulation. (Luke 12:45, Mat 24:48) and they are NOT watching for him now (Rev 3:3).

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


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We look forward to Christ's appearing and return.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Titus 2:13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 12:1 ...let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith...

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

We do not look for, nor are told to look for, Satan's appearing, nor the tribulation to appear.

In fact, we are told to specifically avoid looking for Jesus' physical appearing or return. The reason to avoid looking for Christ's physical appearing is because the AntiChrist will appear physically and claim to be Christ, from 2 Thess 2.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Thus, we have a paradox. We look for Christ's return, but are told not to believe it if we hear he has returned, or someone claims to be Him. This mystery is solved through the pre tribulation rapture, which preceeds the appearance of the antichrist in the seven year tribulation. By the time the Lord Jesus Christ arrives at the end of the seven year tribulation, everyone on earth will suddenly know who the Lord is without question, because he will destroy the antichrist with the "brightness of his coming" (2 Thess 2:8), and every person will "look upon the one whom they pierced" (Zechariah 12:10, Revelation 1:7, John 19:37).

We know that Jesus will appear physically at the second coming (Rev. 19 & Zech 14), despite the warnings against believing a physical appearing of a false christ in Matthew.

Zech 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zech 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

More scriptures emphasizing Christians wait for and look to Christ's return and not the appearance of the AntiChrist.

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. [In Aramaic the expression Come, O Lord is Marana tha.]

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


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Will Christians REALLY be spared the Tribulation?
[Pss 97:10] Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

[Rom 5:8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[Rom 5:9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
[Rom 5:10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

[Isa 57:1] The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

Mic 7:2 The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.

[Mal 3:16] Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
[Mal 3:17] And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
[Mal 3:18] Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
[Mal 4:1] For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

[2Tim 4:18] And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


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More "Rapture" verses:

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Philipians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, (NIV)
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (KJV)

2 Corinthians 5:1-21, full chapter.
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1 Peter 1:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by themthat have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
...

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
WildB
1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.

1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!" yes I have said this and in context, I said it about men like Charles Stanley, yourself and other that teach there is no way a Christian can lose their salivation.

2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday ...I have never aid that, I have said continually , you just don't listen...the Law is wrote on the heart, the Sabbath has not been changed, " Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, that’s what the scriptures say. " They accused Jesus of not keeping the Law but He kept it perfectly because He kept the Spirit of the Law but the religious of His day couldn’t see either.


3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS…. I have never said that, it is just that I prefer to use His given name, even if I may misspell it

4That the Harpazo is a lie….I challenge you to produce one instance where I said or implied that. In fact I lean on the side of the pretrib and my post will verify that!

5That there is no BEMA….I have never said this either, no not once!

6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian. … Yes I have said this and I think scriptures not taken out of context prove it. I am aware of the scripture where Paul referrers to Carnal Christians

7That THE MYSTERY is a lie. … this is only true as you teach it

8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life….never said this…but I have said along with C. H. Spurgeon the Law is not done away with, that the Law is perpetual for all generations till the end of time.

If your are going to say I post something, get what I say right…other wise you are bearing false witness

Not necessary.

This is just a straw-man post and you know it.

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

The only false witness here is you .

Give it up your religious deodorant is wearing off.


[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
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quote:
WildB
1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.

1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!" yes I have said this and in context, I said it about men like Charles Stanley, yourself and other that teach there is no way a Christian can lose their salivation.

2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday ...I have never aid that, I have said continually , you just don't listen...the Law is wrote on the heart, the Sabbath has not been changed, " Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, that’s what the scriptures say. " They accused Jesus of not keeping the Law but He kept it perfectly because He kept the Spirit of the Law but the religious of His day couldn’t see either.


3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS…. I have never said that, it is just that I prefer to use His given name, even if I may misspell it

4That the Harpazo is a lie….I challenge you to produce one instance where I said or implied that. In fact I lean on the side of the pretrib and my post will verify that!

5That there is no BEMA….I have never said this either, no not once!

6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian. … Yes I have said this and I think scriptures not taken out of context prove it. I am aware of the scripture where Paul referrers to Carnal Christians

7That THE MYSTERY is a lie. … this is only true as you teach it

8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life….never said this…but I have said along with C. H. Spurgeon the Law is not done away with, that the Law is perpetual for all generations till the end of time.

If your are going to say I post something, get what I say right…other wise you are bearing false witness

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Twisting… you is good at twisting and taking out of context....

You know well and good the perquisite for God to give the new heart is trusting in the shed blood of Jesus.

You are more legalistic than the Sadducees and the Pharisees,

No its NEW Birth not NEW heart with the law written on it.

Sorry I just don't follow you thinking.

No child is born fully grown.

Sanctification is a growing thang in the Spirit by the Word that contains some law.

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That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
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Twisting… you is good at twisting and taking out of context....

You know well and good the perquisite for God to give the new heart is trusting in the shed blood of Jesus.

You are more legalistic than the Sadducees and the Pharisees,

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
only God can

And only He can give a new heart a heart with His Law written upon it, and only with that new heart can you walk in the Spirit not to fulfill the lust of the old stony heart!
[thumbsup2] [Prayer] [Cross] [Bible] [wave3]

And here I thought it was placing ones faith in the Shed Blood of Christ that ones heart was circumcised with the Spirit to not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

My Bad.

[hug]

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
only God can

And only He can give a new heart a heart with His Law written upon it, and only with that new heart can you walk in the Spirit not to fulfill the lust of the old stony heart!
[thumbsup2] [Prayer] [Cross] [Bible] [wave3]

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I know becauseHElives can,

Please stop it.

Your really starting to smell of religious deodorant.

[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Dear WildB...

I agree with ever word Spurgeon wrote can you say the same?

And IN YOUR OWN WORDS,
what does what you just posted mean?
No really for the baseball fans understanding.

Are you posting,
That.....
You agree,

That C. H. Spurgeon does not SUBSCRIBE to none of the below, Right!

1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.

If not please post where He does agree with any of YOUR above Law/Grace other gospel that you have been weed seeding this Grace Board with for years..

[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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Dear WildB...

I agree with ever word Spurgeon wrote can you say the same?

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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And IN YOUR OWN WORDS,

what does what you just posted mean?

Here are some things gleaned from your past post is this what you mean?

1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.

C. H. Spurgeon SUBSCRIBES to none of the above.


AND

what does that have to do with your other gospel that your trying to sell on a GRACE BOARD?

The Law curses "every one that continueth not in all things…of the law" (Gal. 3:10 ). The words "continueth" and "ALL" here tell us the Law demands 100% ... really now are you 100%?

[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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Daniel ...


“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:18)

It has been said that he who understands the two covenants is a theologian, and this is, no doubt, true. I may also say that the man who knows the relative positions of the Law and the Gospel has the keys of the situation in the matter of doctrine. The relationship of the Law to myself, and how it condemns me; the relationship of the Gospel to myself, and how if I be a believer it justifies me--these are two points which every Christian man should clearly understand. He should not “see men as trees walking” in this department, or else he may cause himself great sorrow, and fall into errors which will be grievous to his heart and injurious to his life. To form a mingle-mangle of law and gospel is to teach that which is neither law or gospel, but the opposite of both. May the Spirit of God be our teacher, and the Word of God be our lesson-book, and then we shall not err.

Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it. Alas, we have met with authors who have gone much further than this, and have railed at the law. Oh, the hard words that I have sometimes read against the holy law of God! How very unlike to those which the apostle used when he said, “The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.” How different from the reverent spirit which made him say, “I delight in the law of God after the inward man.” You know how David loved the law of God, and sang its praises all through the longest of the Psalms. The heart of every real Christian is most reverent towards the law of the Lord. It is perfect, nay, it is perfection itself. We believe that we shall never have reached perfection till we are perfectly conformed to it. A sanctification which stops short of perfect conformity to the law cannot truthfully be called perfect sanctification, for every want of exact conformity to the perfect law is sin. May the Spirit of God help us while, in imitation of our Lord Jesus, we endeavor to magnify the law.

I gather from our text two things upon which I shall speak at this time. The first is that the Law of God is perpetual: “Til heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.” The meaning is that even in the least point it must abide till all be fulfilled. Secondly, we perceive that the law must be fulfilled. He who came to bring in the gospel dispensation here asserts that he has not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.

I. First: THE LAW OF GOD MUST BE PERPETUAL. There is no abrogation of it, nor amendment of it. It is not to be toned down or adjusted to our fallen condition; but every one of the Lord's righteous judgments abideth forever. I would urge three reasons which will establish this teaching.

In the first place our Lord Jesus declares that he did not come to abolish it. His words are most express: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” And Paul tells us with regard to the gospel, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law” (Romans 3:31). The gospel is the means of the firm establishment and vindication of the law of God.

Jesus did not come to change the law, but he came to explain it, and that very fact shows that it remains, for there is no need to explain that which is abrogated. Upon one particular point in which there happened to be a little ceremonialism involved, namely, the keeping of the Sabbath, our Lord enlarged, and showed that the Jewish idea was not the true one. The Pharisees forbade even the doing of works of necessity and mercy, such as rubbing ears of corn to satisfy hunger, and healing the sick. Our Lord Jesus showed that it was not at all according to the mind of God to forbid these things. In straining over the letter, and carrying an outward observance to excess, they had missed the spirit of the Sabbath law, which suggested works of piety such as truly hallow the day. He showed that Sabbatic rest was not mere inaction, and he said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” He pointed to the priests who labored hard at offering sacrifices, and said of them, “the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless.” They were doing divine service, and were within the law. To meet the popular error he took care to do some of his grandest miracles upon the Sabbath-day; and though this excited great wrath against him, as though he were a law-breaker, yet he did it on purpose that they might see that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath, and that it is meant to be a day for doing that which honors God and blesses men. O that men knew how to keep the spiritual Sabbath by a easing from all servile work, and from all work done for self, The rest of faith is the true Sabbath, and the service of God is the most acceptable hallowing of the day. Oh that the day were wholly spent in serving God and doing good! The sum of our Lord’s teaching was that works of necessity, works of mercy, and works of piety are lawful on the Sabbath. He did explain the law in that point and in others, yet that explanation did not alter the command, but only removed the rust of tradition which had settled upon it. By thus explaining the law he confirmed it; he could not have meant to abolish it or he would not have needed to expound it.

In addition to explaining it the Master went further: he pointed out its spiritual character. This the Jews had not observed. They thought, for instance, that the command “Thou shalt not kill” simply forbade murder and manslaughter: but the Savior showed that anger without cause violates the law, and that hard words and cursing, and all other displays of enmity and malice, are forbidden by the commandment. They knew that they might not commit adultery, but it did not enter into their minds that a lascivious desire would be an offense against the precept till the Savior said, “He that looketh upon a woman to lust after her committeth adultery with her already in his heart.” He showed that the thought of evil is sin, that an unclean imagination pollutes the heart, that a wanton wish is guilt in the eyes of the Most High. Assuredly this was no abrogation of law: it was a wonderful exhibition of its far-reaching sovereignty and of its searching character. The Pharisees fancied that if they kept their hands, and their feet, and their tongues, all was done, but Jesus showed that thought, imagination, desire, memory, everything, must be brought into subjection to the will of God, or else the law was not fulfilled. What a searching and humbling doctrine is this! If the law of the Lord reaches to the inward parts who among us can by nature abide its judgment? Who can understand his errors? Cleanse thou me from secret faults. The ten commands are full of meaning--meaning which many seem to ignore. For instance, many a man will allow in and around his house inattention to the rules of health and sanitary precaution, but it does not occur to him that he is trampling on the command-- “Thou shalt not kill,” yet this rule forbids our doing anything which may cause injury to our neighbor’s health, and so deprive him of life. Many a deadly manufactured article, many an ill-ventilated shop, many a business with hours of excessive length, is a standing breach of this command. Shall I say less of drinks, which lead so speedily to disease and death, and crowd our cemeteries with untimely graves? So, too, in reference to another precept: some persons will repeat songs and stories which are suggestive of uncleanness--I wish that this were not so common as it is. Do they not know that an unchaste word, a double meaning, a sly hint of lust all come under the command, “Thou shalt not commit adultery”? It is so according to the teaching of our Lord Jesus. Oh, talk not to me about our Lord’s having brought in a milder law because man could not keep the Decalogue, for he has done nothing of the kind. “His fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor.” “Who may abide the day of his coining? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap.” Let us not dare to dream that God had given us a perfect law which we poor creatures could not keep, and that therefore he has corrected his legislature, and sent his Son to put us under a relaxed discipline. Nothing of the sort. The Lord Jesus Christ has, on the contrary, shown how intimately the law surrounds and enters into our inward parts, so as to convict us of sin within even if we seem clear without. Ah me, this law is high; I cannot attain to it. It everywhere surrounds me; it tracks me to my bed and my board; it follows my steps and marks my ways wherever I may be. No moment does it cease to govern and demand obedience. O God, I am everywhere condemned, for everywhere thy law reveals to me my serious deviations from the way of righteousness and shows me how far short I come of thy glory. Have thou pity on thy servant, for I fly to the gospel which has done for me what the law could never do.

“To see the law by Christ fulfill’d,
And hear his pardoning voice,
Changes a slave into a child,
And duty into choice.”

Our Lord Jesus Christ, in addition to explaining the law and pointing out its spiritual character, also unveiled its living essence, for when one asked him “Which is the great commandment in the law?” he said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” In other words, he has told us, “All the law is fulfilled in this: thou shalt love.” There is the pith and marrow of it. Does any man say to me, “You see, then, instead of the ten commandments we have received the two commandments, and these are much easier.” I answer that this reading of the law is not in the least easier. Such a remark implies a want of thought and experience. Those two precepts comprehend the ten at their fullest extent, and cannot be regarded as the erasure of a jot or tittle of them. Whatever difficulties surround the ten commands are equally found in the two, which are their sum and substance. If you love God with all your heart you must keep the first table; and if you love your neighbor as yourself you must keep the second table. If any suppose that the law of love is an adaptation of the moral law to man’s fallen condition they greatly err. I can only say that the supposed adaptation is no more adapted to us than the original law. If there could be conceived to be any difference in difficulty it might be easier to keep the ten than the two; for if we go no deeper than tile letter, the two are the more exacting, since they deal with the heart, and soul, and mind. The ten commands mean all that the two express; but if we forget this, and only look at the wording of them, I say, it is harder for a man to love God with all his heart, with all his soul, with all his mind, and with all his strength, and his neighbor as himself than it would be merely to abstain from killing, stealing, and false witness. Christ has not, therefore, abrogated or at all moderated the law to meet our helplessness; he has left it in all its sublime perfection, as it always must be left, and he has pointed out how deep are its foundations, how elevated are its heights, how measureless are its length and breadth. Like the laws of the Medes and Persians, God’s commands cannot be altered; we are saved by another method.

To show that he never meant to abrogate the law, our Lord Jesus has embodied all its commands in his own life. In his own person there was a nature which was perfectly conformed to the law of God; and as was his nature such was his life. He could say, “Which of you convinceth me of sin?” and again “I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.” I may not say that he was scrupulously careful to keep the law: I will not put it so, for there was no tendency in him to do otherwise: he was so perfect and pure, so infinitely good, and so complete in his agreement and communion with the Father, that he in all things carried out the Father’s will. The Father said of him, “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.” Point out, if you possibly can, any way in which Christ has violated the law or left it unfulfilled. There was never an unclean thought or rebellious desire in his soul; he had nothing to regret or to retract: it could not be that he should err. He was thrice tempted in the wilderness, and the enemy had the impertinence even to suggest idolatry, but he instantly overthrew the adversary. The prince of this world came to him, but he found nothing in him.

“My dear Redeemer and my Lord,
I read my duty in thy Word;
But in thy life the law appears
Drawn out in living characters.”

Now, if that law had been too high and too hard, Christ would not have exhibited it in his life, but as our exemplar he would have set forth that milder form of law which it is supposed by some theologians he came to introduce. Inasmuch as our Leader and Exemplar has exhibited to us in his life a perfect obedience to the sacred commands in their undiminished grandeur, I gather that he means it to be the model of our conversation. Our Lord has not taken off a single point or pinnacle from that up-towering alp of perfection. He said at the first, “Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God; yea, thy law is within my heart,” and well has he justified the writing of the volume of the book. “God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law”; and being for our sakes under the law he obeyed it to the full, so that now “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.”

Once more, that the Master did not come to alter the law is clear, because after having embodied it in his life he willingly gave himself up to bear its penalty, though he had never broken it, bearing the penalty for us, even as it is written, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.” “All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way, and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” If the law had demanded more of us than it ought to have done, would the Lord Jesus have rendered to it the penalty which resulted from its too severe demands? I am sure he would not. But because the law asked only what it ought to ask--namely perfect obedience; and exacted of the transgressor only what it ought to exact, namely, death, as the penalty for sin--death under divine wrath, therefore the Savior went to the tree, and there bore our sins and purged them once for all. He was crushed beneath the load of our guilt, and cried, “My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death,” and at last when he had borne--

“All that incarnate God could bear,
With strength enough, but none to spare,”

he bowed his head and said, “It is finished.” Our Lord Jesus Christ gave a greater vindication to the law by dying, because it had been broken, than all the lost in hell can ever give by their miseries, for their suffering is never complete, their debt is never paid; but he has borne all that was due from his people, and the law is defrauded of nothing. By his death he has vindicated the honor of God’s moral government, and made it just for him to be merciful. When the lawgiver himself submits to the law, when the sovereign himself bears the extreme penalty of that law, then is the justice of God set upon such a glorious high throne that all admiring worlds must wonder at it. If therefore it is clearly proven that Jesus was obedient to the law, even to the extent of death, he certainly did not come to abolish or abrogate it; and if he did not remove it, who can do so? If he declares that he came to establish it, who shall overthrow it?

But, secondly, the law of God must be perpetual from its very nature, for does it not strike you the moment you think of it that right must always be right, truth must always be true, and purity must always be purity? Before the ten commandments were published at Sinai there was still that same law of right and wrong laid upon men by the necessity of their being God’s creatures. Right was always right before a single command had been committed to words. When Adam was in the garden it was always right that he should love his Maker, and it would always have been wrong that he should have been at cross-purposes with his God; and it does not matter what happens in this world, or what changes take place in the universe, it never can be right to lie, or to commit adultery, or murder, or theft, or to worship an idol God. I will not say that the principles of right and wrong are as absolutely self-existent as God, but I do say that I cannot grasp the idea of God himself as existing apart from his being always holy and always true; so that the very idea of right and wrong seems to me to be necessarily permanent, and cannot possibly be shifted. You cannot bring right down to a lower level; it must be where it always is: right is right eternally, and cannot be wrong. You cannot lift up wrong and make it somewhat right; it must be wrong while the world standeth. Heaven and earth may pass away, but not the smallest letter or accent of the moral law can possibly change. In spirit the law is eternal.

Suppose for a moment that it were possible to temper and tone down the law, wherein would it be? I confess I do not know and cannot imagine. If it be perfectly holy, how can it be altered except by being made imperfect. Would you wish for that? Could you worship the God of an imperfect law? Can it ever be true that God, by way of favoring us, has put us under an imperfect law? Would that be a blessing or a curse? It is said by some that man cannot keep a perfect law, and God does not demand that he should. Certain modern theologians have taught this, 1 hope, by inadvertence. Has God issued an imperfect law? It is the first imperfect thing I ever heard of his making. Does it come to this that, after all, the gospel is a proclamation that God is going to be satisfied with obedience to a mutilated law? God forbid. I say, better that we perish than that his perfect law perish. Terrible as it is, it lies at the foundation of the peace of the universe. and must be honored at all hazards. That gone, all goes. When the power of the Holy Ghost convinced me of sin I felt such a solemn awe of the law of God, that I remember well, when I lay crashed beneath it as a condemned sinner, I yet admired and glorified the law. I could not have wished that perfect law to be altered for me. Rather did I feel that, if my soul were sent to the lowest hell, yet God was to be extolled for his justice and his law held in honor for its perfectness. I would not have had it altered even to save my soul. Brethren, the law of the Lord must stand, for it is perfect, and therefore has in it no element of decay or change.

The law of God is no more than God might most righteously ask of us. If God were about to give us a more tolerant law, it would be an admission on his part that he asked too much at first. Can that be supposed? Was there, after all, some justification for the statement of the wicked and slothful servant when he said, “I feared thee, because thou art an austere man”? It cannot be. For God to alter his law would be an admission that he made a mistake at first, that he put poor imperfect man (we are often hearing that said) under too rigorous a regime, and therefore he is now prepared to abate his claims, and make them more reasonable. It has been said that man’s moral inability to keep the perfect law exempts him from the duty of doing so. This is very specious, but it is utterly false. Man’s inability is not of the kind which removes responsibility: it is moral, not physical. Never fall into the error that moral inability will be an excuse for sin. What, when a man becomes such a liar that he cannot speak the truth, is he thereby exempted from the duty of truthfulness? If your servant owes you a day’s labor, is he free from the duty because he has made himself so drunk that he cannot serve you? Is a man freed from a debt by the fact that he has squandered the money, and therefore cannot pay it? Is a lustful man free to indulge his passions because he cannot understand the beauty of chastity? This is dangerous doctrine. The law is a just one, and man is bound by it though his sin has rendered him incapable of doing so.

The law moreover demands no more than is good for us. There is not a single commandment of God’s law but what is meant to be a kind of danger signal such as we put up upon the ice when it is too thin to bear. Each commandment does as it were say to us, “Dangerous” It is never for a man’s good to do what God forbids him; it is never for man’s real and ultimate happiness to leave undone anything that God commands him. The wisest directions for spiritual health, and for the avoidance of evil, are those directions which are given us concerning right and wrong in the law of God. Therefore it is not possible that there should be any alteration thereof, for it would not be for our good.

I should like to say to any brother who thinks that God has put us under an altered rule: “Which particular part of the law is it that God has relaxed?” Which precept do you feel free to break? Are you delivered from the command which forbids stealing? My dear sir, you may be a capital theologian, but I should lock up my spoons when you call at my house. Is it the command about adultery which you think is removed? Then I could not recommend your being admitted into any decent society. Is the law as to killing softened down? Then I had rather have your room than your company. Which law is it that God has exempted you from? That law of worshipping him only? Do you propose to have another God? Do you intend to make graven images? The fact is that when we come to detail we cannot afford to lose a single link of this wonderful golden chain, which is perfect in every part as well as perfect as a whole. The law is absolutely complete, and you can neither add to it nor take from it. “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.” If, then, no part of it can be taken down, it must stand, and stand for ever.

A third reason I will give why the law must be perpetual is that to suppose it altered is most dangerous. To take away from the law its perpetuity is first of all to take away from it its power to convince of sin. Is it so, that I, being an imperfect creature, am not expected to keep a perfect law? Then it follows that I do not sin when I break the law; and if all that is required of me is that I am to do according to the best of my knowledge and ability, then I have a very convenient rule indeed, and most men will take care to adjust it so as to give themselves as much latitude as possible. By removing the law you have done away with sin, for sin is the transgression of the law, and where there is no law there is no transgression. When you have done away with sin you may as well have done away with the Savior and with salvation, for they are by no means needful. When you have reduced sin to a minimum, what need is there of that great and glorious salvation which Jesus Christ has come to bring into the world? Brethren, we must have none of this: it is evidently a way of mischief.

By lowering the law you weaken its power in the hands of God as a convincer of sin. “By the law is the knowledge of sin.” It is the looking-glass which shows us our spots, and that is a most useful thing, though nothing but the gospel can wash them away.

“My hopes of heaven were firm and bright,
But since the precept came
With a convincing power and light,
I find how vile I am.

“My guilt appear’d but small before,
Till terribly I saw
How perfect, holy, just, and pure,
Was thine eternal law.

“Then felt my soul the heavy load,
My sins reviv’d again,
I had provok’d a dreadful God,
And all my hopes were slain.”

It is only a pure and perfect law that the Holy Spirit can use in order to show to us our depravity and sinfulness. Lower the law and you dim the light by which man perceives his guilt. This is a very serious loss to the sinner rather than a gain, for it lessens the likelihood of his conviction and conversion.

You have also taken away from the law its power to shut us up to the faith of Christ. What is the law of God for? For us to keep in order to be saved by it? Not at all. It is sent in order to show us that we cannot be saved by works, and to shut us up to be saved by grace; but if you make out that the law is altered so that a man can keep it, you have left him his old legal hope, and he is sure to cling to it. You need a perfect law that shuts man right up to hopelessness apart from Jesus, puts him into an iron cage and locks him up, and offers him no escape but by faith in Jesus; then he begins to cry, “Lord, save me by grace, for I perceive that I cannot be saved by my own works.” This is how Paul describes it to the Galatians: “The Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” I say you have deprived the gospel of its ablest auxiliary when you have set aside the law. You have taken away from it the schoolmaster that is to bring men to Christ. No, it must stand, and stand in all its terrors, to drive men away from self-righteousness and constrain them to fly to Christ. They will never accept grace till they tremble before a just and holy law; therefore the law serves a most necessary and blessed purpose, and it must not be removed from its place.

To alter the law is to leave us without any law at all. A sliding-scale of duty is an immoral invention, fatal to the principles of law. If each man is to be accepted because he does his best, we are all doing our best. Is there anybody that is not? If we take their words for it, all our fellow-men are doing as well as they can, considering their imperfect natures. Even the harlot in the streets has some righteousness,- she is not quite so far gone as others. Have you never heard of the bandit who committed many murders, but who felt that he had been doing his best because he never killed anybody on a Friday? Self-righteousness builds itself a nest even in the worst character. This is the man’s talk: “Really, if you knew me, you would say, I have been a good fellow to do as well as I have. Consider what a poor, fallen creature I am; what strong passions were born in me; what temptations to vice beset me, and you will not blame me much. After all, I dare say God is as satisfied with me as with many who are a great deal better, because I had so few advantages.” Yes, you have shifted the standard, and every man will now do that which is right in his own eyes and claim to be doing his best. If you shift the standard pound weight or the bushel measure, you will certainly never get full weight or measurement again. There will be no standard to go by, and each man will do his best with his own pounds and bushels. If the standard be tampered with you have taken away the foundation upon which trade is conducted; and it is the same in soul matters--abolish the best rule that ever can be, even God’s own law, and there is no rule left worthy of the name. What a fine opening this leaves for vain glory. No wonder that men talk of perfect sanctification if the law has been lowered. There is nothing at all remarkable in our getting up to the rule if it is conveniently lowered for us. I believe I shall be perfectly sanctified when I keep God’s law without omission or transgression, but not till then. If any man says that he is perfectly sanctified because he has come up to a modified law of his own, I am glad to know what he means, for I have no longer any discussion with him: I see nothing wonderful in his attainment. Sin is my want of conformity to the law of God, and until we are perfectly conformed to that law in all its spiritual length and breadth it is idle for us to talk about perfect sanctification: no man is perfectly clean till he accepts absolute purity as the standard by which he is to be judged. So long as there is in us any coming short of the perfect law we are not perfect. What a humbling truth this is! The law shall not pass away, but it must be fulfilled. This truth must be maintained, for if it goes, our tacklings are loose, we cannot well strengthen the mast; the ship goes all to pieces; she becomes a total wreck. The gospel itself would be destroyed could you destroy the law. To tamper with the law is to trifle with the gospel. “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

II. I come to show, secondly, that THE LAW MUST BE FULFILLED. I hope there are some in this place who are saying, “We cannot fulfill it.” That is exactly where I want to bring you. Salvation by the works of the law must be felt to be impossible by every man who would be saved. We must learn that salvation is of grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord, and not by our own doings or feelings; but this is a doctrine no one will receive till he has learned the previous truth, that salvation by the works of the law can never come to any man of woman born. Yet the law must be fulfilled. Many will say with Nicodemus “How can these things be?” I answer, the law is fulfilled in Christ, and by faith we receive the fruit thereof.

First, as I have already said, the law is fulfilled in the matchless sacrifice of Jesus Christ. If a man has broken a law, what does the law do with him? It says, “I must be honored. You have broken my command which was sanctioned by the penalty of death. Inasmuch as you did not honor me by obedience, but dishonored me by transgression, you must die.” Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the great covenant representative of his people, their second Adam, stood forward on the behalf of all who are in him, and presented himself as a victim to divine justice. Since his people were guilty of death, he, as their covenant head, came under death, in their place and stead. It was a glorious thing that such representative death was possible, and it was only so because of the original constitution of the race as springing from a common father, and placed under a single head. Inasmuch as our fall was by one Adam, it was possible for us to be raised by another Adam. “As in Adam all died, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” It became possible for God, upon the principle of representation, to allow of substitution. Our first fall was not by our personal fault, but through the failure of our representative; and now in comes our second and grander representative, the Son of God, and he sets us free, not by our honoring the law, but by his doing so. He came under the law by his birth, and being found as a man loaded with the guilt of all his people, he was visited with its penalty. The law lifts its bloody axe, and it smites our glorious Head that we may go free. It is the Son of God that keeps the law by dying, the just for the unjust. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die,”--there is death demanded, and in Christ death is presented. Life for life is rendered: an infinitely precious life instead of the poor lives of men. Jesus has died, and so the law has been fulfilled by the endurance of its penalty, and being fulfilled, its power to condemn and punish the believer has passed away.

Secondly, the law has been fulfilled again for us by Christ in his life. I have already gone over this, but I want to establish you in it. Jesus Christ as our head and representative came into the world for the double purpose of bearing the penalty and at the same time keeping the law. One of his main designs in coming to earth was “to bring in perfect righteousness.” “As by the disobedience of one many were made sinners, so by the righteousness of one shall many be made righteous.” The law requires a perfect life, and he that believeth in Jesus Christ presents to the law a perfect life, which he has made his own by faith. It is not his own life, but Christ is made of God unto us righteousness, even to us who are one with him. “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” That which Jesus did is counted as though we did it, and because he was righteous God sees us in him and counts us righteous upon the principle of substitution and representation. Oh, how blessed it is to put on this robe and to wear it, and so to stand before the Most High in a better righteousness than ever his law demanded, for that demanded the perfect righteousness of a creature, but we put on the absolute righteousness of the Creator himself:, and what can the law ask more? It is written, “In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely, and this is tile name wherewith he shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.” “The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake: he will magnify the law and make it honorable.”

Ay, but that is not all. The law has to be fulfilled in us personally in a spiritual and gospel sense. “Well,” say you, “but how can that be?” I reply in the words of our apostle: “What the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,” Christ has done and is doing by the Holy Spirit, “that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.” Regeneration is a work by which the law is fulfilled; for when a man is born again there is placed in him a new nature, which loves the law of God and is perfectly conformed thereto. The new nature which God implants in every believer at the time he is born again is incapable of sin: it cannot sin, for it is born of God. That new nature is the offspring of the eternal Father, and the Spirit of God dwells in it, and with it, and strengthens it. It is light, it is purity, it is according to the Scripture the “living and incorruptible seed which liveth and abideth for ever.” If incorruptible, it is sinless, for sin is corruption, and corrupts everything that it touches. The apostle Paul, when describing his inward conflicts, showed that he himself, his real and best self, did keep the law, for he says, “So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God.” Romans 7:25. He consented to the law that it was good, which showed that he was on the side of the law, and though sin that dwelt in his members led him into transgression, yet his new nature did not allow it, but hated and loathed it, and cried out against it as one in bondage. The newborn soul delights in the law of the Lord, and there is within it a quenchless life which aspires after absolute perfection, and will never rest till it pays to God perfect obedience and comes to be like God himself.

This which is begun in regeneration is continued and grows till it ultimately arrives at absolute perfection. That will be seen in the world to come; and oh, what a fulfillment of the law will be there! The law will admit no man to heaven till he is perfectly conformed to it, but every believer shall be in that perfect condition. Our nature shall be refined from all its dross and be as pure gold. It will be our delight in heaven to be holy. There will be nothing about us then to kick against a single commandment. We shall there know in our own hearts the glory and excellency of’ the divine will, and our will shall run in the same channel. We shall not imagine that the precepts are rigorous; they will be our own will as truly as they are God’s will. Nothing which God has commanded, however much of self-denial it requires now, will require any self-denial from us then. Holiness will be our element, our delight. Our nature will be entirely conformed to the nature and mind of God as to holiness and goodness, and then the law will be fulfilled in us, and we shall stand before God, having washed our robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, and at the same time being ourselves without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing. Then shall the law of the Lord have eternal honor from our immortal being. Oh. how we shall rejoice in it! We delight in it after the inward man now, but then we shall delight in it as to our risen bodies which shall be charmed to be instruments of righteousness unto God for ever and ever. No appetite of those risen bodies, no want and no necessity of them shall then lead the soul astray, but our whole body, soul, and spirit shall be perfectly conformed unto the Divine mind. Let us long and pant for this. We shall never attain it except by believing in Jesus. Perfect holiness will never be reached by the works of the law, for works cannot change the nature, but by faith in Jesus, and the blessed work of his Holy Spirit, we shall have it, and then I believe it will be among our songs of glory that heaven and earth pass away, but the word of God and the law of God shall stand fast for ever and ever. Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Amen.

“THE PERPETUITY OF THE LAW OF GOD,” by C. H. Spurgeon

http://www.angelfire.com/va/sovereigngrace/perpetuity.spurgeon.html

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hello Dale,
In the book of Jeremiah (and also quoted in Hebrews) we are promised by God Himself that He writes His law into the hearts of those who enter into His New Covenant.

Who would be willing to call God a liar?

I think that if there was a debate around these verses, it would center around what is/are the law/laws that God writes into the hearts of men?

This would be a good study.

With love in Jesus, Daniel

You lawyers never cease to amaze me,lol.

Where is the NEW Testament in Jeremiah?

(more opinion)

The verse you twist is concerning the Nation of Israel in the FUTURE.

The baseball fans don't care what you think and as a study by you two on this GRACE BOARD would be a sneaky way of planting weed seed of ANOTHER GOSPEL.

Your personal veil threats of one calling God a liar is not Biblical.

TRUTH NEED NO DEBATE it simply just is.

Now I put a real BIBLICAL to you Law/grace lads.


Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now go and get your hearts be circumcised by the Spirit of Grace while the day is yet called day.





[wave3]

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That is all.....

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WildB
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THE POLL

God writes His Law on the heart of the Born Again Believer...
God does not writes His Law on the heart.of the Born Again Believer..

NONE OF THE ABOVE.

The Spirit of Grace writes His Love from within the Heart.

NO LAW CAN DO THIS! NO LAW!

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That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
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This is a misleading poll, to only serve the law/grace gospel, that other gospel.

1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.

The key word to this poll is " Hebrews " and the law of works.


GRACE


When you see it, its so simple that it makes ya feel stupid but at the same time binds the SIMPLICITY of Christ into the mind of those who search with a whole Heart and not a heart just submerged in law.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Notice the division..

NOT OF THE LETTER, but OF THE SPIRIT.

Same testament, different commission.

Paul's commission IS NOT the same as that given to the 12.

Its so Spiritually simple that it makes the flesh stupid.

When you get it you will never follow this other gospel again.

THE OTHER GOSPEL

1That OSAS,is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.


[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

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oneinchrist
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Hello Dale,
In the book of Jeremiah (and also quoted in Hebrews) we are promised by God Himself that He writes His law into the hearts of those who enter into His New Covenant.

Who would be willing to call God a liar?

I think that if there was a debate around these verses, it would center around what is/are the law/laws that God writes into the hearts of men?

This would be a good study.

With love in Jesus, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
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Is there anyone that believes God does not write His Law on your heart when you are Born Again?

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 5 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Vote Now     View Poll Results


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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator


 
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