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Topic: Nationalizing Christianity
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Isaiah
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Member # 6699
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posted
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Deu 14:2 For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Peter was referring back to what was spoken by God about ancient Israel. Christ's followers are
spiritually so -as with the new covenant came the availability of God's spirit -and spiritual "Israel" are not necessarily descended from the man called Israel.
In ancient Israel, the church was essentially the state -God was the leader -and beneath him was a system of judges, priests, etc...
...Until the people desired a king like the nations around them (1Sa 8).
God granted them this, but told them it would not be a good thing -which is how David and Saul and any other king over Israel came to rule in the first place. It was not the intended state. This pattern of rejection of God continued -the result being the state we see today. Most Israelites don't even know who they are.
In the near future, the church will be the world, so to speak. God has already planned it. His Son will reign on Earth and administer his government, and those in the first resurrection will rule under him (Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.)
It is not wrong to act in a righteous manner in whatever office or position one holds in today's world, but trying to essentially bring about the kingdom ourselves would probably go very wrong.
We should personally act as though we are citizens of God's kingdom already. Protecting the right to worship by interacting with government is one thing -but representation in government would get very tricky. We see from this site how many different views there are about any subject within "Christianity", so whose view should be represented? Would this nationalization be to protect the right to worship -or force others to act as we think they should?
I think morality should have a louder voice today -so our kids are not subject to harmful things caused by others' so-called "freedoms" -but a massive attempt at organization could hinder that cause due to personality and belief conflicts -even corruption -and cause uneccesary resistance to a good idea all could agree with by focusing on something others do not believe in. We should make knowledge acceptable to all -avoiding that which would drive them from discussion of the issue. Things are not right with the world -some don't want the commandments displayed -but every other type of thought or behavior is plastered all over the place -it isn't even fair or balanced from a worldly perspective -but some things are effective and others are not.
I'm not saying deny God, but too much bible thumping can drown out the issue and leave only one side at the table.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
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scythewieldor
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When The Revelation was written, it was not written in a vacuum.
At that time, Babylon was an inhabited city on the Euphrates which had been supported by several kings and their kingdoms. In fact, a very big portion of the Babylonian population at that time, and for a millennium to come, was Jewish. The resh galuta (king of the exiles), considered by the Jews to be a descendant of Jehoiachin of the house of David, kept his court there. Besides that, there were very many Old Testament prophecies that were yet unfulfilled.
In light of that information, to try to make the great ***** Rome or Jerusalem is to risk adding to or taking away from the book which holds curses for those who do such things.
Babylon was a literal place characterized by a lot of commerce. The commerce involved all the nations. The kings of those nations were sharing resources with the ***** that should have been reserved for their own nations (which were their wives).
At the end of the inhabitation of Babylon -it became empty in the tenth century AD, as far as my research has been able to reveal-, it appears that her global commercial network was sufficient to maintain those committed to the philosophy of Babylon in a way that our faith in Christ is sufficient to maintain our Christian association though we have no central city on earth.
Thus, their mystery competes with our mystery.
When Mystery Babylon is destroyed, from what I can tell, people absolutely stop buying from merchants. Commerce which involves merchants (those who buy in order to resale rather than to use) will never happen again.
This writer is still working on her identity, but the clues that emerge make this detective careful about the guesses he divulges, and the audience to which he makes those revelations.
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Bible, King James Version
2Thes.2
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The w~hore to come will be the apostate church.
Lets rightly divide the Word of truth.
Read Revelation prayerfully
The w~hore ia already here. But I think she likes democracy more than the Spirit of God.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light...
Ah, to take the Spirit's words so lightly... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Aaron
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
Bible, King James Version
2Thes.2
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The w~hore to come will be the apostate church.
Lets rightly divide the Word of truth.
Read Revelation prayerfully
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Aaron
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You know, shortly after you posted the above I wrote a response which said, in short, "no way Jose". After I wrote it and posted it the Lord told me to erase it. So I did believing it was His will to eliminate strife in the forum.
I was wrong.
He did it to correct me. Soon after I erased the post He told me not to dismiss what you wrote: to let it sit where it was. So I did, and since then the reality of our National identity as God's chosen people has been a reoccurring theme in my studies.
I'm so far from completely understanding the issue it would be reckless to comment too much on it now. Nevertheless, when I was studying tonight the Lord reminded me of this thread and the need for me to set the matter straight publicly.
So,scythewieldor, much of what you've said rings true. Lord willing, He will deepen my understanding on the matters and I may walk in the reality of God's holy nation.
Bless you,
Aaron
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scythewieldor
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When the community of Christians in Antioch was attacked by the false teachers who told them they needed to keep the Mosaic law, the elders of that community knew that they were facing a threat to their liberty.
They sent Saul of Tarsus and Barnabas to Jerusalem where they could find out what the mind of God was on that issue. The apostles and the elders and the brethren, there, received them and heard their cause.
Acts 15:6 ¶ And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Peter was involved in this deposition.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
It seems that this "centralized" government (that you seem to fear) had very much room for input by those who were concerned with the outcome.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
And, at the end, a pure, peaceable, heavenly wisdom came through James.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
James presented the word of God that guided his sentence.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
And the apostles, and elders, and the whole church was pleased.
22 ¶ Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
This is, by no means, comparable to a decision made by a Pope or an earthly king. In fact, when they were through, they were not ashamed to give credit to the Holy Ghost for the end result.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Now the writings of the apostles are with us, today, as the writings of the prophets were those old saints. Just as James let the words of the prophets make clear to the whole church what the mind of Christ was on that issue, we should promote holy men to keep speaking clearly about the faith once handed down to the saints by the apostles of Jesus Christ.
Remember, if our leadership is always borne by a plurality of agreeing voices which do not wrest scripture, we can have more peaceful resolutions to issues like those Christians at Antioch had.
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by scythewieldor:
You have no way of becoming a part of this, the will of God.
Come again?
Are you saying it's the will of God to establish centralized church governance?
Aaron
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scythewieldor
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Ro 15:5 ¶ Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7 ¶ Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Php 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
You have no way of becoming a part of this, the will of God.
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Aaron
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scythewieldor,
I agree with your assessment of the modern church: lost her way, priorities out of order, etc. But that's a far cry from condoning centralized governance of all the saints.
Aaron
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scythewieldor
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As Paul went through preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, congregations of believers arose and communities were established. The letters to Titus and Timothy were instructions for running those communities.
They were told how to choose elders and deacons. These roles were the roles of community leaders- ergo, Christian government.
They corresponded to the "judges and officers" which God told Moses to set up in every one of the cities given to Israel by the Lord.
Deut. 16:18 ¶ Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment.
19 Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.
20 That which is altogether just shalt thou follow, that thou mayest live, and inherit the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
It was by means of this machinery that Jesus and Paul expected the New Covenant people to keep the level of Christian example high.
Mat 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Christianity has become set up as businesses- licensed franchises, almost. This manner pitches the franchisees in competition with each other. Therefore, the love of money, through competition for customers, brings the level of Christian community to a, nearly, non-existent level. Come on. What kind of fellowship thrives on 1 hour of hymns and lectures per week?
That is a commitment of time more appropriate for entertainment.
The Acts 2 and Acts 4 Christians were the first to hear the things sent out by our Lord through the apostles. The Bible said that they were committed to the things the apostles taught.
In their obedience to our Lord, those saints did something the report of which, among the heathen, was along this line,"They turn the world upside down". They obtained that report in less than forty years following the resurrection of Jesus.
The power of the religion that they received was Kingdom as they brought forth the fruits of the Kingdom.
In our day, we have tried to present Christianity as not-for-profit businesses. Thus, we have created a form of religion, but denied the power of our religion (denied power to our religion?). We have, also, in my opinion, become a lot like salt that has lost it's savor.
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BrianGrass1234
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I think all christians should give all they can to those that need. Should never expect payment of a loan back. Should never hold a debt over another's head. Should not have an excess of stuff when there are others who could use that wasted money much more than you getting to have a big screen TV. Should be diligent in the work and income you can make, not so you can have a bigger house or nicer stuff, but that you can better help out those that do not have the ability to do as well as you.
What I don't get is how these ideas have anything to do with a christian government?
I get scared at the idea of government getting mixed with these values. Then it becomes force and violence being used against others to make them do these things.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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scythewieldor
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Our Lord told the apostles that they were to teach the nations to observe the things whatsoever He had commanded them. You would be amazed how far short of that we have come.
One of the things that Jesus commanded His apostles would make a huge impact upon the world system.
Lu 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Lend hoping for nothing, again. Don't expect principle nor interest. Since the borrower is the slave of the lender, according to Proverbs, lending the way Jesus said to lend would serve liberty to men without using guns.
Here is another.
Lu 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
Jesus told His apostles to sell what they had, and give to the poor. If Christians sold the things they made to the rich, only, but gave to the poor, that would make for liberty, as well. The high places would be brought lower and the low places would be brought higher.
Here is another one.
John 13:4-16 (only the last will I place here)
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
The serving of Christ was the most menial of tasks. In other words, every kind of serving is included as part of our recognition of the example of our Lord. So we have a very practical application of the Golden Rule.
Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Lu 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
In Jesus' reference to "all things whatsoever", He makes it clear that, if you want others to make food for you, make food. You want clothes made for you? Make clothes. You want houses built for you? Make houses.
Very clearly, this is the way Paul received the doctrine to work with your hands that he repeated so many times.
1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
Tit 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Ac 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
If we become a people who produce the things everyone needs, and,
If we sell them to the people who can afford to buy, but give to the people who can't, and,
If, out of our receipts, we lend to the poor expecting nothing again, then,
We become more like the bride of the Lamb who has prepared herself for the wedding.
These are just a few things which would sound like strange doctrine to the world. However, since we are not of the world, to us, it is the wisdom of God which will make the world hate us.
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Aaron
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This discussion brought these verses to mind:
quote:
Isa 2:2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD's house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
Isa 2:3 Many people shall come and say,
"Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths."
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.
Certainly, it seems that our Lord's rule and judgement will prompt the nations of men to put down their weapons.
I'm not sure if the geography noted above is literal or figurative. If I had to decide I'd say "figurative" due to the use of "top of the mountains" and the references to nations "flowing".
Anyway, in my mind, the people of God *should* have a national identity and an accompanying allegiance to the King who rules us.
But what of war? Do God's people fight? Do we have a standing army? Yes, but not like the standing armies of the world. And our weapons are spiritual, for the enemies of our nation are not "flesh and blood".
And what of ruling over others? Is it permitted? Absolutely.
1Ti 3:5 ..for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.
Hbr 13:7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.
Hbr 13:17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.
Hbr 13:24 Greet all those who rule over you, and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.
Certainly, ruling in the nation of God is not marked by coercion and force. Nevertheless, some are called to rule within the house of God. And, if we rule as our Lord ruled ("Lord" denotes rulership) we will rule well and be honored for it.
Aaron
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BrianGrass1234
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So what will this christian nation do? Is it just a mechanism for a central power to control churches? Don't like that idea either. Also how are they going to govern? All the nations I know do it with armed men and threats of force and violence.
I do like what you said at the end. I like the idea of people understand the force and violence that used by government and that their votes are responsible for the actions of force and violence the state carries out. I hope christians realize that next time they decide to vote for the lessor of two evils.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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scythewieldor
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To Aaron, You are right about elders. The Nicolaitainism of the Catholic church would not be the model of the Holy Nation. Elders are the governing machinery at every level of Christian influence in the world. Deacon (the five-fold ministers) are drafted by the congregation when the elders declare that a man needs to be taken from secular occupation for kingdom business. As that draftee is proven, the Holy Spirit may tell the elders to promote that deacon for some other business.
Meanwhile, the elders who are not, themselves, deacons maintain themselves by working with their hands.
All this is scriptural.
To BrianGrass, Earthly governments which are guided by the wisdom that is earthy rely upon earthy, demonic, sensual reasoning. However, when we speak of the Kingdom of God which, Jesus says, is within us, we are speaking of a government the reasoning of which is pure, peaceable, gentle, easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
As Aaron stated, Christian government is constituted by elders. This kind of governance does not give one man enough authority to ruin the lives of many.
I can not find scripture that supports the idea of all men being created equal. Some are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. Some are not.
However, all who have sinned need a Saviour. And, those who believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh, receive the power to become the sons of God.
In other words, they receive the power, by the spirit of adoption, to make ruling class decisions on earth where they pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven".
As these believers submit to the discipleship authorized by the Lord, Himself, when He commanded His apostles to "teach the gentiles to observe all the things I have commanded you", they will be changed from glory to glory into the Lord's image by His Spirit. They will not have hearts exercised in covetous practices. They WILL be servants. They will be meek even as their Lord is meek.
Nevertheless, they will judge angels. They will pull down strongholds, cast down imaginations and every high thing which raises itself against the knowledge of God, and bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. When this has occurred in the House of God, then God will judge those who are outside.
The thing that I have proposed will allow us to be iron sharpening iron on a global scale- brothers training each other to stop regarding the futile ways of living inherited from earthly fathers, and to prefer the mind of Christ.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Until we do that, the crown which is ours as joint-heirs with Christ, will be taken by men.
Re 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
To all, When you go to vote for earthly governance, you are, most likely, yoking yourselves together with unbelievers. If they force people to do anything (like stop preaching in public places), your endorsement of the system that puts them in place makes you a partaker in their sins. This statement may apply to such:
Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
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BrianGrass1234
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Earthly government are instruments of force and coercion. Not a tool Christians should be using. Our nation is not of this world but the one to come, where Christ alone rules, not men ruling over men. Remember, we are all created equal in the eyes of God so who am I to lord over another. I am not better. I cannot own another. Therefore I have to right to initiate force against another to control them or take from them. Also remember Christ came to the earth to give and serve with leadership out of humbleness. It is not Christ like to hold the sword over your brothers head, but to serve when called upon and give what is asked, not to control others and take.
As far as the poll goes, I vote NO.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by scythewieldor:
..maybe it is time to convene congresses of Christians for the purpose of ironing out regional governments which will represent all Christians in a national government with a global footprint.
Isn't that what the Romans did: establish a "church" government that mirrored the earthly Roman hierarchy? The emperor became "Pope", the senate became "cardinals", the governors became "bishops", etc. Never mind that such offices are never found in scripture.
In short, no thank you. The highest level of church government within a location is occupied by the elders. This was God's design from the beginning. We have no permission to change it now.
Aaron
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scythewieldor
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St. Peter tells the Christians that they are a holy nation in this manner:
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
It being that the worldly nations are so contrary to Christianity, maybe it is time to convene congresses of Christians for the purpose of ironing out regional governments which will represent all Christians in a national government with a global footprint.
This would simulate the manner in which the people of the house of Judah operated in order to get a home in Palestine. We, however, would be operating as the people of the house of Joseph which Zechariah (after the Babylonian captivity) says will move into Lebanon and Gilead.
Since Paul tells us that we who are in Christ are the seed of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise, and
Since the promise to Abraham was that his seed would inherit everyplace where he put his foot, and,
Since Paul says that God's promise to Israel through Osee (Hosea) was kept through the salvation of people from among the gentiles, and,
Since the House of Joseph was just another way the prophets spoke of Israel when they were making a distinction between the two houses into which the descendants of Jacob were divided,
Then, we who are in Christ can look forward to being moved to Lebanon and Gilead as the Israel of God.
(When we do go back, it is prophesied that we will say,"This place is to small for us. Give us more room." So, if you thought that, God said you would say that.
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