Christian Chat Network

This version of the message boards has closed.
Please click below to go to the new Christian BBS website.

New Message Boards - Click Here

You can still search for the old message here.

Christian Message Boards


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
| | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Polls Only   » Church Fund-Raising (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Church Fund-Raising
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847

Icon 1 posted      Profile for TEXASGRANDMA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Good News,
I grew up in the Assembly of God Church. I do not really have the gift of tongues. I came close, but because of my OCD, I had a strong fear of offending the Holy Spirit. It is only in the last couple of years, that I realize that the Holy Spirit is not something I should fear but embrace. I know the Holy Spirit still works today. I have seen Him in action. I respect the Holy Spirit and I am so thankful to God that the Holy Spirit draws me to Christ.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
You haven't read TEXASGRANDMA's remarks? She and I seem to be on the same page. [thumbsup2]

If you would've read more carefully you would know that I agree with her as well. Aaron
[Confused] [Confused]

Ok you win Aaron. I best leave this one be, because it is starting to escalate into a kiddie's sandbox fight.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
You haven't read TEXASGRANDMA's remarks? She and I seem to be on the same page. [thumbsup2]

If you would've read more carefully you would know that I agree with her as well.

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You haven't read TEXASGRANDMA's remarks? She and I seem to be on the same page. [thumbsup2]

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Confused]
Could someone else clear this up?
Good NewsforAll, please don't post until this is cleared up.

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
]Sorry, we don't believe tongues are still active today.)

I don't believe 'we' - I believe the Bible.

quote:
(Sorry, there are no more prophetic words only teachings. Paul obviously made an error here and meant to write "teacher".
The scriptures tell me that some are given the gift of prophesy, so I believe the Bible. Besides, there are no errors in the Bible.
Every word is God-breathed.

Sorry, Aaron, all scripture is Truth and you are not going to convince me to doubt the Bible.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Good NewsforAll,

I still think you don't get it.

Let's try this from a different direction:

Which of these items, in bold, do you think properly represent the character of the church?

___________________________________________
Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm

(When we meet on Sundays the psalms and hymns will already be chosen. If you want a particular hymn sung please join the choir or speak to the Worship Committee chairman.)

has a teaching,

(What will be taught is also determined before you arrive. This will be furnished by the man we call "pastor" and will usually include three points and a poem. Only he will talk and you are not permitted to ask questions during his speech.)

has a tongue,

(Sorry, we don't believe tongues are still active today.)

has a revelation,

(Of course everyone "has a revelation", it's in the Bible. Anyone who claims to have a "Revelation from God" will be dismissed as "demon possessed".)

has an interpretation.

(Since there are no more tongues there is no need for interpretation. If you hope to discuss the relevancy of a particular scripture please do so with the pastor after you have spoken to his secretary. Don't wait too long :his appointments are already three weeks out!)

Let all things be done for edification.

(We like this sentence. No need to change it. Remember: this means "whatever you do don't offend anyone".)

If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

(We've already covered this. There will be no tongues. Besides, only the pastor speaks.)

But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

(This should simply read: let him keep silent. Except while singing, of course.)


Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.

(Sorry, there are no more prophetic words only teachings. Paul obviously made an error here and meant to write "teacher". Besides, only the pastor speaks and all judgement will be done by the elders whom you elected. The elders are competent professionals so they know how to judge a man. )

But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.

(We covered this already: no one is to speak save for the pastor and perhaps the person asked to "give a testimony". Don't you dare ask the pastor to be silent...we pay him too much!)


For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

( Of course this is not true)


Luke 15:4 "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

(But if the pastor, or shepherd, of the man is busy, he'll arrange for the Visitation Committee Chairman to see the man or woman when time permits. Thinking that your shepherd would leave his "flock" to restore you is selfish. He's an important man with important things to say. You should be thankful he even knows your last name!)
________________________________________________

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847

Icon 1 posted      Profile for TEXASGRANDMA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I often hear people say that they don't see a need for tongues in the Church today, I disagree. I heard recently on the radio, a lady said that she was knew to our Country and visited a Church. Even though she did not understand English very well. During the prayer, she heard a lady speaking in tongues in her own language. There was no interptation because this woman was just praying out loud during the prayer time. But the Holy Spirit used this as a way for the woman who was visiting the Church to know that God was with her even in a new Country. We may not always understand the reasons why the Holy Spirit works in us. Sometimes, it is just the Holy Spirit praying for us when we don't know what to pray for.

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Every word in the Bible, including lessons from Paul, are meant as a personal message to us. Because of manmade doctrine, we can't pick and choose what we will rip from its pages.

Cor. 12: 4 There are different kinds of spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit is the source of them all. 5 There are different kinds of service,
but we serve the same Lord. 6 God works in different ways, but it is the same God who does the work in all of us.

7 A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other. 8 To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge.

9 The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing.

10 He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said.

11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I believe the Holy Spirit still works in Churches today. I believe the Holy Spirit still has the same power that He had in New Testament Days. If this is how you believe, then we do agree.

Yes, we agree.

The bolded statements were examples of how the church has become institutional and, therefore, wrong.

Re bolded statements,Aaron, you don't agree if you say the following -

"(Sorry, we don't believe tongues are still active today.)"

"has a revelation,
(Of course everyone "has a revelation", it's in the Bible. Anyone who claims to have a "Revelation from God" will be dismissed as "demon possessed".)"

"has an interpretation.
(Since there are no more tongues there is no need for interpretation. If you hope to discuss the relevancy of a particular scripture please do so with the pastor after you have spoken to his secretary. Don't wait too long :his appointments are already three weeks out!)"

Aaron, I am still waiting for biblical proof to back up these statements.

As I said: "The bolded statements were examples of how the church has become institutional and, therefore, wrong."

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I believe the Holy Spirit still works in Churches today. I believe the Holy Spirit still has the same power that He had in New Testament Days. If this is how you believe, then we do agree.

Yes, we agree.

The bolded statements were examples of how the church has become institutional and, therefore, wrong.

Re bolded statements,Aaron, you don't agree if you say the following -

"(Sorry, we don't believe tongues are still active today.)"

"has a revelation,
(Of course everyone "has a revelation", it's in the Bible. Anyone who claims to have a "Revelation from God" will be dismissed as "demon possessed".)"

"has an interpretation.
(Since there are no more tongues there is no need for interpretation. If you hope to discuss the relevancy of a particular scripture please do so with the pastor after you have spoken to his secretary. Don't wait too long :his appointments are already three weeks out!)"

Aaron, I am still waiting for biblical proof to back up these statements.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
we agree.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I believe the Holy Spirit still works in Churches today. I believe the Holy Spirit still has the same power that He had in New Testament Days. If this is how you believe, then we do agree.

Yes, we agree.

The bolded statements were examples of how the church has become institutional and, therefore, wrong.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847

Icon 1 posted      Profile for TEXASGRANDMA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I believe the Holy Spirit still works in Churches today. I believe the Holy Spirit still has the same power that He had in New Testament Days. If this is how you believe, then we do agree.

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Was my delivery really that obtuse or are you two agreeing with me?

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 8 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If any part of the Gifts, Power, and Abilities given to the first century Church through the Holy Spirit, are not available for the Church today, the Bible is a fraud and Yahweh is not Eternal?

But Yahweh is the only living God Eternal, and He is the same Yesterday, Today and Forever.

No matter what any man may say!

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847

Icon 1 posted      Profile for TEXASGRANDMA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't see anything in the Bible saying that tongues is not active today. Nor do I see anywhere that the Holy Spirit no longer works in Churches today.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
The bolded comments are traditions and teachings in some church meetings/denominations today. They are, of course, wrong but accepted as truth among many church-goers.Aaron

"Tongues" and "revelation" are in the bolded comments, and are terms used in the Bible. Where do you get the authority to say they are wrong and untruthful for today, Aaron? You haven't provided any scripture to back up these ideas.
Maybe I wasn't clear. The statements in bold are incorrect. So this statement : (Sorry, we don't believe tongues are still active today.), although upheld as truth by some denominations, would be incorrect.

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
The bolded comments are traditions and teachings in some church meetings/denominations today. They are, of course, wrong but accepted as truth among many church-goers.Aaron

"Tongues" and "revelation" are in the bolded comments, and are terms used in the Bible. Where do you get the authority to say they are wrong and untruthful for today, Aaron? You haven't provided any scripture to back up these ideas.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The bolded comments are traditions and teachings in some church meetings/denominations today. They are, of course, wrong but accepted as truth among many church-goers.

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 16 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When Paul went around from town to town he was organizing churches the way Jesus would want them, emphazing the Good News. He had to teach them how to be keep the assembling respectful and in order, and not be chitchatting across the room to each other. Therefore, he had to remind them to be silent at the appropriate times and 'listen.' When we sit in a congregation to-day, we do so in silence, not interrupting the order of the service.


quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
(Sorry, we don't believe tongues are still active today.)

Who are 'we'? Notice 1 Cor. 12:26-31 is written in the present tense. Whenever you turn around the Word to suit your own beliefs, you better have scripture to back up these beliefs.

quote:
has a revelation,

(Of course everyone "has a revelation", it's in the Bible. Anyone who claims to have a "Revelation from God" will be dismissed as "demon possessed".)

Please back this up with scriptures.

The only time demons are mentioned in 1 Cor. is when speaking about sacrifices to idols by pagans, not mentioning worship services of professing believers.

1 Cor. 1:18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar?

19Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demonsrin!

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
1 Corinthians 12: 26-31
..Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.


Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm

(When we meet on Sundays the psalms and hymns will already be chosen. If you want a particular hymn sung please join the choir or speak to the Worship Committee chairman.)

has a teaching,

(What will be taught is also determined before you arrive. This will be furnished by the man we call "pastor" and will usually include three points and a poem. Only he will talk and you are not permitted to ask questions during his speech.)

has a tongue,

(Sorry, we don't believe tongues are still active today.)

has a revelation,

(Of course everyone "has a revelation", it's in the Bible. Anyone who claims to have a "Revelation from God" will be dismissed as "demon possessed".)

has an interpretation.

(Since there are no more tongues there is no need for interpretation. If you hope to discuss the relevancy of a particular scripture please do so with the pastor after you have spoken to his secretary. Don't wait too long :his appointments are already three weeks out!)

Let all things be done for edification.

(We like this sentence. No need to change it. Remember: this means "whatever you do don't offend anyone".)

If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

(We've already covered this. There will be no tongues. Besides, only the pastor speaks.)

But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

(This should simply read: let him keep silent. Except while singing, of course.)


Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.

(Sorry, there are no more prophetic words only teachings. Paul obviously made an error here and meant to write "teacher". Besides, only the pastor speaks and all judgement will be done by the elders whom you elected. The elders are competent professionals so they know how to judge a man. )

But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.

(We covered this already: no one is to speak save for the pastor and perhaps the person asked to "give a testimony". Don't you dare ask the pastor to be silent...we pay him too much!)


For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

( Of course this is not true)


Luke 15:4 "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

(But if the pastor, or shepherd, of the man is busy, he'll arrange for the Visitation Committee Chairman to see the man or woman when time permits. Thinking that your shepherd would leave his "flock" to restore you is selfish. He's an important man with important things to say. You should be thankful he even knows your last name!)

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
I still stand by my interpretation of Hebrews 10:25. Notice how it says we have to exhort one another. This would be typical of a gathering of believers, by having fellowship and giving each other encouragement.

Have you not read Ephesians 4?

but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--
from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

This is the assembling Paul was talking about.


These are not semantics. These issues are very important.

The first definition of "church" is a contemporary one. No such definition existed prior to the writing of the King James version of the Bible.

The church is Christ's Body but we call brick and stone "church". And yet we still pay our little "Moses" to go and hear from God for us. Although there is One mediator between God and man we have many. Although the Mosaic law has been completed we still pay "tithes" to priests. Although the apostles chose the elders of a church by the laying on of hands we do so now through seminary and voting.

The most dominant expression of what is called "church" is institutional.

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We're starting to get into semantics here Aaron.

Definition of assemble -
1. to bring together or gather into one place, company, body, or whole.
2. to put or fit together; put together the parts of: to assemble information for a report; to assemble a toy from a kit.
3. to come together; gather; meet: We assembled in the auditorium.

Definition of church - 1 : a building for public and especially Christian worship
2 : the clergy or officialdom of a religious body
3 often capitalized : a body or organization of religious believers: the whole body of Christians.

I have never heard of a church being referred to as being institutionalized. Makes it sound like some of sort of medical facility.

I still stand by my interpretation of Hebrews 10:25. Notice how it says we have to exhort one another. This would be typical of a gathering of believers, by having fellowship and giving each other encouragement.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
[QB]I hope you aren't saying that the organized church is unbiblical.

No, I'm not against the organized church. But I am against the institutional church.

quote:
Hebrews 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching

"Assembling" here means "to put together". This is a kin to the process by which a puzzle or machine is completed.

"of ourselves" tells us what is being assembled. Here the saints are being assembled.

This verse is often used to goad men and women into attending "church" but this is not what this verse means.

Assembling is the fitting together of each saint into his/her proper position. Much like the body, no, exactly like The Body, each saint has a particular function in the Body of Christ. When the saints are assembled each one performs the his/her part as the Lord leads.

We can assemble a bunch of car parts in a heap but we wouldn't call it a car. In fact such a gathering would be useless. Only when the parts are assembled are they of use and only then can the do what they were intended to do.

Aaron

P.S. Dear Betty, why are you still calling a building "a church"? Don't you know by now that the "church" is the saints? We cannot go to what we are. And, while the Lord has pursued us even in our ignorance about such things how much longer do you think He will do so? The day of institutional church is coming to a close.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847

Icon 1 posted      Profile for TEXASGRANDMA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Many Christians today are against Churches. They seem to think that God no longer uses Churches for His work, but I disagree. Churches support Missionaries, they are a place for the lost to come and find out about God, and for Christians to learn about growing in your relationship with God.
My Christian life was developed by me growing up in Church and I still am learning through the Sunday School class, Bible Study and preaching.
A Church needs a building, lights and water. It is the responsability of the Churches to support her by their tithes and offerings. We all can't go to a faraway Country to be a Missionary but we can support Missionaries through our local Church.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
What is the sanctuary of the church?

Sanctuary is a holy place - temple,tabernacle, church.. Believers assemble in a sanctuary to worship.
quote:
So in the church the priests give tithes to the priests? Where is this teaching found?
I didn't say that. However, I have heard of evangelists giving to other evangelists when they have a special mission to fulfill.

quote:
From Good NewsforAll -If pastors are involved in fulltime spiritual service, how are they supposed to survive without tithes and offerings?

From Aaron - What do you mean by full-time spiritual service? Is there another kind of service in the church? Aren't all priests involved in the administration of the covenant and is this administration not spiritual?

I have never heard of a preacher taking a job at Wal-Mart or Home Depot. Most of us 'priests' have other means of income.

quote:
From Good NewsforAll - Who is going to take care of the maintenance of the building and supplies?

What building? Supplies for what?
Aaron

The church of course.I hope you aren't saying that the organized church is unbiblical. We are supposed to come together as one body. If we aren't organized and accountable to each other, we will become unorganized and unaccountable.

Hebrews 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Priests ministered in a sanctuary setting. Although we don't call them priests, today, pastors minister in a sanctuary setting

What is the sanctuary of the church?

quote:
and tithes and offerings are their only income.
So in the church the priests give tithes to the priests? Where is this teaching found?

quote:
If pastors are involved in fulltime spiritual service, how are they supposed to survive without tithes and offerings?
What do you mean by full-time spiritual service? Is there another kind of service in the church? Aren't all priests involved in the administration of the covenant and is this administration not spiritual?

quote:
Who is going to take care of the maintenance of the building and supplies?
What building? Supplies for what?

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
I have already agreed that we are kings and priests.

[Confused] But you pasted this:
quote:
Definition of priest -
"The priestly system in the OT was a shadow of which is the body of Christ. The priests all prefigured the great Priest who offered "one sacrifice for sins" "once for all" (Heb. 10:10, 12). There is now no human priesthood. (See Epistle to the Hebrews throughout.) The term "priest" is indeed applied to believers (1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6), but in these cases it implies no sacerdotal functions. All true believers are now "kings and priests unto God." As priests we have free access into the holiest of all, and offer up the sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving, and the sacrifices of grateful service from day to day."

So, I'm not sure what you are saying.
We seem to being going in circles, Aaron. The Easton definition, you and I all agree that we are no longer under the Mosaic law. We all also agree that we are kings and priests through the Holy Spirit, and have one great Priest who offered "one sacrifice for sins" "once for all. Also, we cannot deny that the sacerdotal rituals under the Mosaic law have ceased.

You hightlighted "there is no human priesthood", which was quoted by Easton. Again, they are referring to the old Mosaic law. Let's put it in its proper context as quoted in Hebrews 10: 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made).

9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."[b] have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


quote:
From Aaron -You seem to equate "leadership" with "priests". This is not right. Moses was in leadership, as were others, but they never received the tithes as their income because they were not priests. David and the other kings were in leadership but the tithes never went to them. And in the New Testament some gifts distributed to men are for the purpose of leadership (elders/pastors, evangelists, teachers, apostles, prophets, bishop, etc.) but the tithe is not mentioned. Giving to them is mentioned but the tithe is not because it was a part of the Mosaic law given at Sinai. Under that law only the priests received the tithe
David and other kings would have financial support through other means. Moses wasn't totally dependent in a priestly role. He lived off of the land.

Priests ministered in a sanctuary setting. Although we don't call them priests, today, pastors minister in a sanctuary setting, and tithes and offerings are their only income. If pastors are involved in fulltime spiritual service, how are they supposed to survive without tithes and offerings? Who is going to take care of the maintenance of the building and supplies?

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
I have already agreed that we are kings and priests.

[Confused]

But you pasted this:
quote:
Definition of priest -
"The priestly system in the OT was a shadow of which is the body of Christ. The priests all prefigured the great Priest who offered "one sacrifice for sins" "once for all" (Heb. 10:10, 12). There is now no human priesthood. (See Epistle to the Hebrews throughout.) The term "priest" is indeed applied to believers (1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6), but in these cases it implies no sacerdotal functions. All true believers are now "kings and priests unto God." As priests we have free access into the holiest of all, and offer up the sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving, and the sacrifices of grateful service from day to day."

So, I'm not sure what you are saying.

quote:
By sacerdotal the Easton definition is referring to the priestly rituals, as in Numbers 8. We certainly don't get involved in such legalistic religious practices today.
The term "legalistic" is read as "works-based theology" today. That definition is inaccurate. We are under a law, but we are not under the Mosaic law we are under the law of our Lord. The priesthood's work is an extension of the law they are under...unlawful work is not permitted. In the true sense of the word we are legalistic but are not "works based", for the law we are under is different.

You seem to equate "leadership" with "priests". This is not right. Moses was in leadership, as were others, but they never received the tithes as their income because they were not priests. David and the other kings were in leadership but the tithes never went to them. And in the New Testament some gifts distributed to men are for the purpose of leadership (elders/pastors, evangelists, teachers, apostles, prophets, bishop, etc.) but the tithe is not mentioned. Giving to them is mentioned but the tithe is not because it was a part of the Mosaic law given at Sinai. Under that law only the priests received the tithe.

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Now, if you are not convinced that there *are* priest then I can go no further...the rest of the explanation hinges upon that fact: those in Christ ARE priests and He, Christ, is the High Priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.
So? Shall I continue?
Aaron

I have already agreed that we are kings and priests.

By sacerdotal the Easton definition is referring to the priestly rituals, as in Numbers 8. We certainly don't get involved in such legalistic religious practices today.

Setting Up the Lamps
Numbers 8: 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to Aaron and say to him, 'When you set up the seven lamps, they are to light the area in front of the lampstand.' "
3 Aaron did so; he set up the lamps so that they faced forward on the lampstand, just as the LORD commanded Moses. 4 This is how the lampstand was made: It was made of hammered gold—from its base to its blossoms. The lampstand was made exactly like the pattern the LORD had shown Moses.

The Setting Apart of the Levites
5 The LORD said to Moses: 6 "Take the Levites from among the other Israelites and make them ceremonially clean. 7 To purify them, do this: Sprinkle the water of cleansing on them; then have them shave their whole bodies and wash their clothes, and so purify themselves. 8 Have them take a young bull with its grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil; then you are to take a second young bull for a sin offering. 9 Bring the Levites to the front of the Tent of Meeting and assemble the whole Israelite community. 10 You are to bring the Levites before the LORD, and the Israelites are to lay their hands on them. 11 Aaron is to present the Levites before the LORD as a wave offering from the Israelites, so that they may be ready to do the work of the LORD. 12 "After the Levites lay their hands on the heads of the bulls, use the one for a sin offering to the LORD and the other for a burnt offering, to make atonement for the Levites.

... and the chapter goes on for another 14 verses.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well you pasted the pertinent part, imo.


I'd like to hi-light a couple parts:

quote:
There is now no human priesthood. (See Epistle to the Hebrews throughout.) The term "priest" is indeed applied to believers (1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6), but in these cases it implies no sacerdotal functions.
"Saceradotal functions" simply means "what a priest does". Here, he uses it loosely to mean "the actions of the Levitical priesthood". And, because the Levitical priests are now obsolete, he concludes that there are no more priests. This is where he goes too far.

The Holy Spirit, through Peter and John, declared all in Christ "a royal priesthood" and kings and priests".

quote:
Revelation 1:5-6 To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever.

And

quote:
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people...
Peter is quoting the words God spoke to Moses to give to the children of Israel

quote:
Exodus 9:5-6 'Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.
'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.

Peter declares, and John confirms, that the promises of the covenant God intended to give the children of Israel at Sinai rested fully on all those in Christ.

These are not simply poetic words of a couple of writers, this is fact: all who are in Christ are royal priests.

Hebrews does not say there are no more priests. It says that the priesthood has changed and consequently, the law has changed.

quote:
Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

While the old law meant sin and death to the people the new law brings life.

quote:
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
So, while the Levites were charged with the "sacerdotal functions" of the Mosaic covenant the current priests, all believers in Christ, are charged with the "sacerdotal functions" of the law of the Spirit of life.

So, my point, there are priests. AND, they have a function that is defined by the current covenant under which they serve.

Now, if you are not convinced that there *are* priest then I can go no further...the rest of the explanation hinges upon that fact: those in Christ ARE priests and He, Christ, is the High Priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.

So? Shall I continue?

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This was a definition of priest given under the Easton Bible link.

I didn't give the full definition because I personally don't like very lengthy posts.

http://www.ccel.org/e/easton/ebd/ebd/T0003000.html#T0003001

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:

Definition of priest -
"The priestly system in the OT was a shadow of which is the body of Christ. The priests all prefigured the great Priest who offered "one sacrifice for sins" "once for all" (Heb. 10:10, 12). There is now no human priesthood. (See Epistle to the Hebrews throughout.) The term "priest" is indeed applied to believers (1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6), but in these cases it implies no sacerdotal functions. All true believers are now "kings and priests unto God." As priests we have free access into the holiest of all, and offer up the sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving, and the sacrifices of grateful service from day to day."

This explanation is truncated at best but possibly wrong. His/her assumptions seem too closely attached to the contemporary idea of "priest".

Could you please provide the link to this quote?

Before I comment further I'd like to see if the author had more to say.

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
The 'kings and priests' of to-day are not involved in taking care of the sanctuary and being part religious rituals.

Can you define "sanctuary" and "rituals" as you've used them here? Perhaps give me an example of both?
Aaron

Any church of today that would practice the following, would be very legalistic. Believers aren't involved in religion and rituals. Our walk is a personal relationship, influenced by the Holy Spirit from within.

Numbers 18:5 “You yourselves must perform the sacred duties inside the sanctuary and at the altar. If you follow these instructions, the Lord’s anger will never again blaze against the people of Israel. 6 I myself have chosen your fellow Levites from among the Israelites to be your special assistants. They are a gift to you, dedicated to the Lord for service in the Tabernacle.

7 But you and your sons, the priests, must personally handle all the priestly rituals associated with the altar and with everything behind the inner curtain. I am giving you the priesthood as your special privilege of service. Any unauthorized person who comes too near the sanctuary will be put to death.”

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
The 'kings and priests' of to-day are not involved in taking care of the sanctuary and being part religious rituals.

Can you define "sanctuary" and "rituals" as you've used them here? Perhaps give me an example of both?

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
The point was the Levites could not have a job apart from being a priest. What they received from tithes and offerings was 100% of their income.

Much like spiritual leaders to-day.

quote:
Now, all in Christ are priests, royal priests in fact. And if the law of tithes is in effect then we should expect who to pay tithes and offerings to us? The "non-priest" Christians? There's no such thing.
The priests in the OT had a different role than when Jesus became our own High Priest. The 'kings and priests' of to-day are not involved in taking care of the sanctuary and being part religious rituals.

Definition of priest -
"The priestly system in the OT was a shadow of which is the body of Christ. The priests all prefigured the great Priest who offered "one sacrifice for sins" "once for all" (Heb. 10:10, 12). There is now no human priesthood. (See Epistle to the Hebrews throughout.) The term "priest" is indeed applied to believers (1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6), but in these cases it implies no sacerdotal functions. All true believers are now "kings and priests unto God." As priests we have free access into the holiest of all, and offer up the sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving, and the sacrifices of grateful service from day to day."

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The point was the Levites could not have a job apart from being a priest. What they received from tithes and offerings was 100% of their income.

Now, all in Christ are priests, royal priests in fact. And if the law of tithes is in effect then we should expect who to pay tithes and offerings to us? The "non-priest" Christians? There's no such thing.

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
to minister,

This is precisely: "to perform the duties of the current covenant of which you are priest" As far as I know the Levites were never referred to as "shepherds" of the Israelites. In fact the scriptures record many times, that the Israelites are like "sheep without a shepherd".

Perhaps you did not know pastor = shepherd?

Spiritual leaders go by different names. Just because they weren't called shepherds, doesn't mean they were not spiritual leaders. They were appointed to take care of the Tabernacle under Moses' command.

Exodus 38:21 These are the amounts of the materials used for the tabernacle, the tabernacle of the Testimony, which were recorded at Moses' command by the Levites under the direction of Ithamar son of Aaron, the priest

1 Chronicles 23:28
The duty of the Levites was to help Aaron's descendants in the service of the temple of the LORD : to be in charge of the courtyards, the side rooms, the purification of all sacred things and the performance of other duties at the house of God.

Numbers 3:9 Give the Levites to Aaron and his sons; they are the Israelites who are to be given wholly to him. 10 Appoint Aaron and his sons to serve as priests; anyone else who approaches the sanctuary must be put to death."
(Aaron was also from the tribe of Levi)

quote:
From GoodNews -The point is that the Bible tells us to give tithes and offerings to our spiritual leaders, which would include pastors, evangelists, etc.so that they can
continue their ministry.
Response from Aaron Only in the OT. Now, it specifically it says to give to those in leadership. The "tithes and offering" stuff you, or someone else (probably someone who's position depended upon the money), added later.

The Levites were in leadership. So you want the scripture in Deut.26 to take out the Levites, and say that tithing is for the OT only, Does that mean we can also forget about the strangers, fatherless, widows and the oppressed?
quote:
The priests under the Mosaic Law were completely committed to the ministry of God and they could gain nothing on their own apart from the priesthood. As a priest they relied 100% upon God and His provision. But you say you give 10% maybe a little more.
I don't understand your reasoning Aaron.. I know I rely on God for on 100% for my provision. Where did they get their 100% - it was from tithes and offerings from different givers, not all from one source.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Amen Betty,
quote:
I don't have a problem with the youth washing cars to go to camp, or the women selling pies and cakes to buy a new appliances for the Church. But the Church day to day finaces should come through tithes and offerings.

Amen Good NewsforAll,
quote:
I agree. If a church is struggling financially, it shows that the congregation isn't pulling its weight in financial support. No Bible-believing church should be suffering to meet its financial responsibilities. It's not Biblical.




--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
to minister,

This is precisely: "to perform the duties of the current covenant of which you are priest" As far as I know the Levites were never referred to as "shepherds" of the Israelites. In fact the scriptures record many times, that the Israelites are like "sheep without a shepherd".

Perhaps you did not know pastor = shepherd?

quote:

The point is that the Bible tells us to give tithes and offerings to our spiritual leaders, which would include pastors, evangelists, etc.so that they can continue their ministry.

Only in the OT. Now, it specifically it says to give to those in leadership. The "tithes and offering" stuff you, or someone else (probably someone who's position depended upon the money), added later.

Here's the passage I'm thinking of:
quote:
Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.
For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

The priests under the Mosaic Law were completely committed to the ministry of God and they could gain nothing on their own apart from the priesthood. As a priest they relied 100% upon God and His provision. But you say you give 10% maybe a little more.

That would be ok...if you are not a priest. But Peter says that the saints are (now) "a royal priesthood...a holy nation, a peculiar people". Now, under the present covenant all who are in Christ are priests. And, if you are saying that the requirements for tithing, established in the OT, are in effect today then you will need to give 100%...10% won't do.

Are you in Christ OR do you give tithes to priests? One cannot have it both ways.

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847

Icon 1 posted      Profile for TEXASGRANDMA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You have indeed been blessed. We pay our tithes, also. We need a miracle to be able to buy a house, but we are trusting God.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 15 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:

I don't believe that list has changed for to-day's living. Notice the Levite is included on that list. Levites were keepers of the sanctuary.(pastors)

The Levites were not pastors...they were priests.

Have you not learned that God has saved us to be a nation of royal priests and that the sanctuary of God, or temple, is in fact our own bodies?

Aaron

P.S. Since you quoted the scriptures I'll ask you directly: How much of your budget goes to the apostles?

2 Chronicles 31:2
And Hezekiah appointed the courses of the priests and the Levites after their courses, every man according to his service, the priests and Levites for burnt offerings and for peace offerings, to minister, and to give thanks, and to praise in the gates of the tents of the LORD.

The point is that the Bible tells us to give tithes and offerings to our spiritual leaders, which would include pastors, evangelists, etc.so that they can continue their ministry.

I give 10% of my earnings to the church, plus a generous portion to charities. This is extremely important to me, because I would not want to be in danger of robbing God. It all belongs God, and he has allowed me to keep a major portion. The Bible is overflowing with scriptures regarding offerings and giving.

Financially I do not want for anything. Always have adequate to meet all of my needs and pay the bills. We have had major upgrades and repairs to our home, and I didn't have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to pay these bills.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:

I don't believe that list has changed for to-day's living. Notice the Levite is included on that list. Levites were keepers of the sanctuary.(pastors)

The Levites were not pastors...they were priests.

Have you not learned that God has saved us to be a nation of royal priests and that the sanctuary of God, or temple, is in fact our own bodies?

Aaron

P.S. Since you quoted the scriptures I'll ask you directly: How much of your budget goes to the apostles?

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:

expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then to us in keeping with God's will.

Nice passage. But I don't think it has anything to do with tithing. Sure, its been used as a catalyst for tithing but only insofar as the audience is willingly coersed.

Perhaps a more precise question: what should the finances of the ekklesia support?

And, before anyone says "pastor's salary" I'll remind them of the above passage wherein the church gave to the apostles. Hey, that's a good question: how much should the church give to the apostles of the Lord? Aaron

Giving is giving. We can't sidestep the scriptues to avoid that they mean that we have to provide funds for the Lord's work.

Jesus had a bag of money meant only for the Lord's treasury. In Matthew 17:24-27, when the matter came up concerning paying the temple tax, he didn't dip into those funds, but had Peter go to the lake and throw in a line and take the coin provided in a fish's mouth, and pay the tax with that coin.

Where are the tithes and offerings supposed to go - to people.

Deut. 26: 12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

13Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them.

Nehemiah 13:5 And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests.

Isaiah 58 speaks about how if we provide for the oppressed, we will be greatly blessed.

I don't believe that list has changed for to-day's living. Notice the Levite is included on that list. Levites were keepers of the sanctuary. What portion should be given to them? (pastors). Whatever the Lord leads you to give. Personally I give to charities, plus a good portion to the church. I believe that is why one tenth isn't mentioned in the NT. We now have the Holy Spirit to guide us and it has to come from the heart and not be done in a legalistic way. However, we are robbing honour to God, if we don't follow his command to care for His children.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:

And another question: could you define "financial support" please? I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I guess I was avoiding that nasty word that a lot of people don't like - tithing. They try to avoid using it in the context of the NT.

If the people in the Old Testament were constantly making sacrifices and offerings of their richest harvest to give back to the Lord, why would it stop all of the sudden in the New Testament?

Everything we have belongs to God, why should we resist giving back at least 10%, when he allows us to keep the rest?

Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, "Wherein have we robbed thee?" In tithes and offerings.

Paul encouraged generosity in 2 Cor. 8. If a church is generous there is no way it will not be able to meet their financial needs.

2 Chron. 8:1And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. 2Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity.

3For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, 4they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints. 5And they did not do as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then to us in keeping with God's will.

6So we urged Titus, since he had earlier made a beginning, to bring also to completion this act of grace on your part. 7But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us[a]—see that you also excel in this grace of giving.

Verse 12For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.

Nice passage. But I don't think it has anything to do with tithing. Sure, its been used as a catalyst for tithing but only insofar as the audience is willingly coersed.

Perhaps a more precise question: what should the finances of the ekklesia support?

And, before anyone says "pastor's salary" I'll remind them of the above passage wherein the church gave to the apostles. Hey, that's a good question: how much should the church give to the apostles of the Lord?

Aaron

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:

And another question: could you define "financial support" please? I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I guess I was avoiding that nasty word that a lot of people don't like - tithing. They try to avoid using it in the context of the NT.

If the people in the Old Testament were constantly making sacrifices and offerings of their richest harvest to give back to the Lord, why would it stop all of the sudden in the New Testament?

Everything we have belongs to God, why should we resist giving back at least 10%, when he allows us to keep the rest?

Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, "Wherein have we robbed thee?" In tithes and offerings.

Paul encouraged generosity in 2 Cor. 8. If a church is generous there is no way it will not be able to meet their financial needs.

2 Chron. 8:1And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. 2Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity.

3For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, 4they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints. 5And they did not do as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then to us in keeping with God's will.

6So we urged Titus, since he had earlier made a beginning, to bring also to completion this act of grace on your part. 7But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us[a]—see that you also excel in this grace of giving.

Verse 12For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847

Icon 1 posted      Profile for TEXASGRANDMA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Does a Church ever suffer financial setbacks? Of course it happens. It happened three years ago at the Church I attend. The Pastor told our congregation to pray about one month giving a little extra. We did some revamping of our paid staff. Most of us felt led by God to give extra financially that month.
We got back in the black and we are now in the process of growing and doing some rebuilding to get some buildings that have mold redone.
But if a Church month after month is not supported by the congregation, there should be some prayer and thought going into what is going on.
I have been in Church since I was 2 weeks old and have never seen a Church that I attended go bankrupt. If a Church does, something is wrong.
Either the people are not paying their tithes, are there is a spiritual problem with the Church.
But a Church should not be supported by fund raisers month after month. The Church is supposed to be supported by her members not the general public.

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aaron
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
[QUOTE]I agree. If a church is struggling financially, it shows that the congregation isn't pulling its weight in financial support. No Bible-believing church should be suffering to meet its financial responsibilities. It's not Biblical.

What...God never permits financial trials?

And another question: could you define "financial support" please? I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Aaron

I suppose I should comment on the question. It seems odd to me to make a distinction between "the public" and "the church". We are the church among the public...and we are the public as well. Our distinction is that we are of the "called out" of God...yet we still live on the earth.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Good NewsforAll     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I don't have a problem with the youth washing cars to go to camp, or the women selling pies and cakes to buy a new appliances for the Church. But the Church day to day finaces should come through tithes and offerings.

I agree. If a church is struggling financially, it shows that the congregation isn't pulling its weight in financial support. No Bible-believing church should be suffering to meet its financial responsibilities. It's not Biblical.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator



This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Christian Message Board | Privacy Statement



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

Christian Chat Network

New Message Boards - Click Here