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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Polls Only   » Is Israel doing the right thing? (Page 4)

 
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Author Topic: Is Israel doing the right thing?
Caretaker
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Andy if you are geeting your perspective from British journalism, then it is hardly fair and balanced towards Israel.

It is not Israel which is hiding weapons in Mosques.

It is not Israel which is firng multitudes of rockets, adjacent to civilian populations, and indiscriminantly into populations of innocent men, women, and children.

You will want to ignore history, because it supports Israel.


http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/001204.html


This picture of a corrupted BBC culture that is ideologically skewed towards the left is blindingly obvious to anyone who does not share those assumptions. It is a far deeper problem than the political partisanship recently let slip by Today presenter Jim Naughtie when he inadvertently referred to the Labour Party as ‘we’.

With a few honourable exceptions, the BBC views every issue through the prism of left-wing, secular, anti-western thinking. It is the Guardian of the air. It has a knee-jerk antipathy to America, the free market, big business, religion, British institutions, the Conservative party and Israel; it supports the human rights culture, the Palestinians, Irish republicanism, European integration, multiculturalism and a liberal attitude towards drugs and a host of social issues.

Every day, its relentless bias rolls across the airwaves to shape the assumptions of our society. Who can be surprised at Britain’s current anti-Americanism when the BBC starts from the premise that President Bush is a dangerous extremist?

Thus it describes Republicans opposed to his controversial UN nominee John Bolton as ‘moderate’. On News 24 the other night, after scenes of ecstatic Georgians praising President Bush for supporting their quest for freedom, the presenter declared that America was interested in Georgia only in order to grab its oil.

Who can be surprised at Britain’s visceral hatred of Israel when, having all but ignored such atrocities as the two decades of genocide in southern Sudan or the systematic Muslim persecution of Christians worldwide, the BBC obsessively transmits a twisted view of the Arab war against the Jewish state which presents genocidal Hamas terrorists as heroic freedom fighters and Israeli attempts at self-defence as unwarranted aggression?

On issue after issue, the BBC throws impartiality to the winds. When abortion recently resurfaced as a controversy, TV’s Newsnight featured a discussion between two pro-abortion campaigners — Sir David Steel, the architect of the current Abortion Act, and the feminist writer Suzie Orbach — with no-one to put an anti-abortion view.

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A Servant of Christ,
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16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I don't think it's Israel that has a complete disregard for human life. I see it's Hezbollah and other Muslim extremists groups that do not seem to respect human life.

How many times does the Muslim world need to state they want Israel completely wiped off the map? They deserve the broad brush getting painted on all Muslims. I rarely hear any so called tolerant and peaceful Muslim folk come forth to really condemn the extremists.

Unless the so called peaceful Muslims start condemming this volence themselves it will not stop. That means Muslims in America as well as the Middle East and elsewhere.

Otherwise they are silently condoning the actions of their extremist brothers and silently saying they agree with them.

A little incident that neatly illustrates what is going on - this was witnessed by a couple of British Journalists working for Channel 4 News, and reported, with pictures, on the News this evening.

Israeli forces have dropped leaflets telling the civilians to get out of the areas around Tyre. There was a large convoy of civilians to the north leaving Tyre this afternoon when just south of Tyre Hezbollah terrorists launched several missles at Haifa, killing 2 Israeli civilians. Israel quickly pinpointed the launch site and attacked it using aircraft launched air to ground missles. After this, Israeli helicopter gunships also attacked the convoy of civilians moving north (a very great distance from where the rockets were launched from) and destroyed 12 cars, killing 4 civilians - this was a deliverate attack on civilians, when asked the Israeli military just said no comment.

This is unfortunately typical of incidents occurring currently. The view of the British reporters present in Lebanon is that it is carrying out parallel operations - those operations designed to neutralise Hezbollah and their ability to attack Israel, and operations designed to punish Lebanon and it's civilians generally.

These are not my words (sat safely at my PC in London), the are the opinions of independent and impartial British journalists currently working in Israel and Lebanon. This is NOT acceptable and is contrary to Christian values. We cannot sit by without condeming what is happening.

Peaceful muslims ARE condeming the actions of Hezbollah - I'm afraid to say that my experience of the media in the US is that they are not very good at showing a full picture of what is happening. I bet they haven't even covered the attack on the cars travelling north from Tyre.

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Cheers

Andy

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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
ahar:

While in a perfect war it would be wonderful, if innocent people didn't get killed, we do not live in a perfect world.

Why don't you care to mention all the Palestine suicide bombers that have haunted Israel over the past decades. They even train their children it's a way to get into paradise.

Israel is dealing with an irrational enemy.

This is exactly the issue that I mentioned - instead of debating their tactics the answer generally comes back "what about what they have done to use" as if that in some way absolves any debate and gives Israel carte blanche to do as it pleases.
It's not about "what they have done to us(ie Israel)"

It's about they fact they do these tactics and there is no way of negociating peacefully or reasonably with the Islamic extremist as they appear to be and have stated their single-mindedness and rigid views and seem to prefer death to any kind of peace negociation, that includes Israel as a nation.

Their terms are simple: Israel must be destroyed for Islam to be satisfied.

One can't negociate for any kind of peace with the other party only wanting your death.

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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
The other situation is the attacks by Hezbollah - while subjecting civilians areas to heavy bombing may be a short term tactical move, it is strategic suicide and just perpetuates the cycle of violence. Israel could claim the moral hgih ground given the constant attacks it is under and no one would deny its right to fight back - but it shoots itself in the foot every time with its own complete disregard for human life.

I don't think it's Israel that has a complete disregard for human life. I see it's Hezbollah and other Muslim extremists groups that do not seem to respect human life.

How many times does the Muslim world need to state they want Israel completely wiped off the map? They deserve the broad brush getting painted on all Muslims. I rarely hear any so called tolerant and peaceful Muslim folk come forth to really condemn the extremists.

Unless the so called peaceful Muslims start condemming this volence themselves it will not stop. That means Muslims in America as well as the Middle East and elsewhere.

Otherwise they are silently condoning the actions of their extremist brothers and silently saying they agree with them.

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KnowHim
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.
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Israel is doing the right thing.
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:


Israel has two choices - fight or be pushed into the sea. I say that that means they MUST fight. The lines have been drawn and Israel did not draw them. All Israel has ever asked is to remain peaceably in the land that was first given them by God, and later regiven them by Britain.

Again, we come back to the same point - you can be against the manner in which Israel is undertaking its defence without being against its right to self defence.

As with many endemic problems around the world, British finger prints are all over it - take a look at the mess with India, Pakistan and Kashmir to get an idea of how we Brits have truly screwed things up in the past. About the only place we haven't done much damage is South America, and that's because the Spanish and Portugese got there first - working over eight million locals and imported slaves to death in the silver mines in Potosi in Bolivia was one of their worst crimes.

Anyway, I digress. I will reiterate that the issue I see it is not Israel's right to protect itself, but the manner in which it conducts itself that is wrong. You can't just indiscriminately bomb the hell out of a country and tell the people to blame their own Government.

Of course the Lebanese government is at fault for allowing Hezbollah to continue, but what could they do? For 20 years they were occupied by Israel who smashed their military and as soon as they left Syria moved in and only left 8 months ago - that's a very short amount of time to rebuild your country.

Israel continues to operate with very little regard to Arab civilians - in Lebanon, in Gaza and in the West Bank. You only need look at the (very few) military personnel that have actually been brought to justice for killing civilians - the overwhelming majority of them are Israeli arabs, not Jews.

I am not going to go into the history of the holy land, as it is murky and shrouded in claim and counter claim by all sides - nothing can be achieved in this situation by looking backwards as all sides have historical and religous claims to the land - just look at the Wailing Wall - its just underneath one of the most revered mosques in Islam.

We have to deal with the current situation - there are millions of people living in extreme poverty in the occupied territories and they want the chance for self government. They do not want to become Israeli citizens, and who can blame them given the way that Israeli Arabs are treated by their own country. They also do not want to be citizens of the surrounding countries - apart from the fact that no-one actually wants them, they'll be badly treated there as well (certainly worse than in Israel). These people need a viable state before there can be any semblance of peace. Issues in the middle east keep coming back to Palestinians - without this rallying call, terrorists would find it much harder to recruit people and Israel's security would increase dramatically.

The other situation is the attacks by Hezbollah - while subjecting civilians areas to heavy bombing may be a short term tactical move, it is strategic suicide and just perpetuates the cycle of violence. Israel could claim the moral hgih ground given the constant attacks it is under and no one would deny its right to fight back - but it shoots itself in the foot every time with its own complete disregard for human life.

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Cheers

Andy

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helpforhomeschoolers
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My personal opinion is that Israel should not have given back one inch of the land that was taken in the 6 day war in the first place. Isreal was given all this land and so much more for a HOMELAND by Britain who controlled it at the time of the Balfour Declaration. The Arab Palestinians have been offered full citizenship in Israel and they did not want it.. they wanted to be seen as a displaced people.

The Arab Palestinians have vowed that there will be no peace until there is no Israel. But GOD has said that there will always be an Israel! What else can Israel do when these peope have vowed to eliminate Israel?

Because of not wanting to alienate the US, Israel shows much more restraint than I think that they should. No one would expect any other nation to accept the things that Israel has been edxpected to accept. No other nation would be told to give back land legitiamtely taken in a legitimate war. Especially if that land were theirs in the first place!

Israel has two choices - fight or be pushed into the sea. I say that that means they MUST fight. The lines have been drawn and Israel did not draw them. All Israel has ever asked is to remain peaceably in the land that was first given them by God, and later regiven them by Britain.

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HE LIVES
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quote:
Look at the figures for the death toll - the number of Lebanese killed so far is at least 10 times the number of Israelies and at least half of these are civilians.
I feel for the Lebanese people, but that's even more of a reason for the Lebanese government to get rid of Hezoballah. If you allow another country to send rockets to a terrorist group in your country, and let them shoot them at another country, and then blame the other country when they retaliate, that's just crazy!

The Lebanese people shouldn't be blaming Israel, they should be blaming their own government for harboring Hezoballah.

What if the KKK started shooting rockets at Cuba from Florida and we just set back and watched it happen, should Cuba just set there and take it? NO! they shouldn't, but that wouldn't happen here because we would go down to florida and tell them idiots to stop and take their rockets away from them and throw their butts in prison.

The Lebanses government needs to step up and quit turnning a blind eye to what is happening in their country. If you allow this kind of thing to happen in your country then don't act shocked when someone retaliates.

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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
ahar:

While in a perfect war it would be wonderful, if innocent people didn't get killed, we do not live in a perfect world.

Why don't you care to mention all the Palestine suicide bombers that have haunted Israel over the past decades. They even train their children it's a way to get into paradise.

Israel is dealing with an irrational enemy.

This is exactly the issue that I mentioned - instead of debating their tactics the answer generally comes back "what about what they have done to use" as if that in some way absolves any debate and gives Israel carte blanche to do as it pleases.

Using the epithet 'they' regarding the indoctrination of suicide bombers presumes that this happens to all Palestinian children and is part of the culture. This tars everyone with the same brush and is the kind of prejudice that can lead down a very dangerous path.

Anyway, back to the point, I don't see the actions of Palestinian suicide bombers (abhorrent though it is) as particularly relevant to the debate on the tactics used to stop Hezbollah launching rockets at Israeli civillians. Israel has a responsibility as a nation state to act in a measured way to achieve it's objectives with the minimum amount of cilivian deaths. Bombing the central TV station in the middle of the day for example, is not consistent with this.

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Cheers

Andy

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WhiteEagle
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ahar:

While in a perfect war it would be wonderful, if innocent people didn't get killed, we do not live in a perfect world.

Why don't you care to mention all the Palestine suicide bombers that have haunted Israel over the past decades. They even train their children it's a way to get into paradise.

Israel is dealing with an irrational enemy.

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ahar
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I'll qualify and expand my statement a little. I think you have to seperate the principle of defending their citizens from a critical assessment of the acion that Israel is undertaking. The debate regarding the actions of Israel, certainly in the UK, has become very muddied recently - a critism of Israels actions does not imply a lack of support for the country or it's people. Look at the figures for the death toll - the number of Lebanese killed so far is at least 10 times the number of Israelies and at least half of these are civilians.

Israel's military has never given real regard to civilians in it's operations - their counter argument to accusations of civilian caualties has always been "they're killing our people, so we'll fight back, and if a few random innocent people are killed along the way then that's regretable". This is no way for a nation state to behave.

Israel is an institutionally racist state. Fully a fifth of it's citizens are Arabs but they are treated as second class citizens. Do they control a proportionate amount of the countries' wealth, political power, jobs etc ? They do not. You need look no further than the treatment of the setllers in Gaza compared to an Israeli Arab protest march in 1999. The march got a little rowdy and the police weighed in with batons, water cannon, rubber bullets and APCs - there were many injuries and I seem to recall a few deaths. When the Gaza settlers protested in a FAR more violent manner, the police and army went out of their way to ensure none of them were hurt. Gaza settlers throw stones, Police tackle them and take the stones away - Palestinian children throw stones, they get shots fired at them.

I understand Israel is surrounded by hostile states, their memory resounds with times such as the 1967 war and they cannot sit by while Hezbollah rain rockets down upon them while the Arab nations stay silent on the issue. But the nature of the response, not whether there should be a response, is the basis for my objection.

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Cheers

Andy

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Eduardo Grequi
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Is Isreal doing the right thing?

Yes! The Muslims has always had it out with the Isreal. No other country on this earth have MORE enemies than Isreal. The Hezoballahs are just one of twenty facist group that would have Isreal anilated.

This is where I believe that the uniqueness of Isreal stands out. Personally speaking I would rather have the lion lay down with the lamb, but being pratical about it. The lion would rather devour LAMB.

There is no other country that came into existence over night, unless you think about Liberia. Liberia was a country whose main purpose was to allow fomer slaves a place of recognition and acceptance, Isreal if left alone would had been in existence for ten lifetimes and more. The ancient Egyptians would place the Jews back in bondage, Hitler would have every Jew killed, with his allies. Neo Nazis would kill the Jews. For the longest time the Roman Catholic Church would kill the Jews and some still would rather have Isreal killed.

Thank God! Isreal exist. I often wonder how would it be like to have been born in Isreal. Isreal (The Jews) has always remained alive in the hearts of the Jwish people by their culture and somewhat of the culture who circumspect it in various areas where they live today. The language Hebrew never died out because it was always the language of the Jews even in the Synagouges abroad in the world.
Isreal like the bible have been equally scorned and tried to wipe out.

There is a saying that Jewish people not living in Isreal say every year during Yom Kimpur and that is - " MAYBE THIS YEAR JERUSALEM WILL BE MINE"

THY WORD HAVE I HID IN MY HEART THAT I MAY NOT SIN AGAINST THEE.

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NLP
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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Israel is doing the right thing. Israelis are practical people and they know that the Muslims' groups whether Hezbollah or Syria, or Iran want Israel destroyed completely.

It's self-defense. Israel will not ***** foot around, as it's a case of their survival.

Israel is doing the only practical thing. It's the right thing.

WhiteEagle: You sound EXACTLY like my dad, I almost thought he got the internet and posted this! LOL. [roll on floor]

I agree with you 100%.

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WhiteEagle
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Israel is doing the right thing. Israelis are practical people and they know that the Muslims' groups whether Hezbollah or Syria, or Iran want Israel destroyed completely.

It's self-defense. Israel will not ***** foot around, as it's a case of their survival.

Israel is doing the only practical thing. It's the right thing.

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ahar
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It's a difficult one this, as I agree with the fact that Israel cannot sit by and have rockets rain down on it, but I certainly don't agree with the way that they have undertaken the action. On balance, I would say no.

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Andy

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KnowHim
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Is Israel doing the right thing by going after Hezballah?

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