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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Polls Only   » Is Israel doing the right thing? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Is Israel doing the right thing?
freddy05
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Actually Freddy it would be more accurate if the baby had dynamite strapped on and it was being rolled towards the Israeli.

Still haven´t addressed my point. Historically armies that are heavily outmatched resort to unorthadox (and often disgusting) tactics.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
The reasons the arab armies have resorted to such tactics has more to do with economics and war tactics than God vs Satan. Historically, anytime an army is greatly outmatched they resort to similar tactics. Look at Colombia specifically, or any conflict throughout the world where one side was outmatched by impossible odds.

Of course this doesn´t fit in to your nice little boxed view of the world, so you will reject it.

It does not fit with the Bible's view either... all things have to do with GOd vs Satan:

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
 -  -

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Caretaker
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Islamic Schools Indoctrination in Hate

School Books

1. Israel does not appear on any maps of the world in the new PA textbooks, while maps of Israel replace the name Israel with "Palestine" in all of the new Palestinian Authority school books.

2. The new Palestinian school books "annex" sites in Israel to Palestine. "Haifa is a Palestinian seaport." (Lughatuna Al-Jamila [Our Beautiful Language] Vol. 2, 5th grade textbook, p. 86) "Galilee, Nazareth and Beit She'an are regions in Palestine." (Al-Iqtisad Al-Manzili [Home Economy], 10th grade textbook, pp. 36-37)

3. The new Palestinian school books mention Israel only as an enemy, in reference to "occupation of lands" in 1948 and 1967: "There is no doubt that the Israeli occupation has a negative impact on [Palestinian] agriculture and its export." (Lughatuna Al-Jamila [Our Beautiful Language] Vol. 1, 10th grade textbook, p. 102)

4. The new Palestinian school books present Zionism only as an enemy movement: "The Palestinian people are under an oppressive siege, limiting their movement and way of life." (Al-Tarbiyah Al-Islamiyyah [Islamic Education], Vol. 1, 5th grade textbook, p. 49) Accusation against settlements (from 1948!) of damaging water sources, as in "the influence of settlement on sources of water in Palestine." (Ulum Al-Sihha Wal-B'ia [Health and Environmental Sciences], 10th grade textbook, p. 122) "The Palestinian family has problems...stemming from the occupation... it loses father, mother or son to death or imprisonment... endures the difficulties of life..." (Al-Tarbiyah Al-Wataniyya [National Education], 5th grade textbook, p. 23)

5. The new Palestinian school books make the false claim that an "extremist Zionist" set fire to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in 1969 (Tarikh Al-'Alam Al-Hadith Wal-Mu'asir [History of the New Modern World], 10th grade textbook, p. 106), when it was really a mentally unstable fundamentalist Christian Australian.

6. The new Palestinian school books teach that the First Zionist Congress at Basel fostered the Zionist State based on a secret decision of what came came to be known as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. (Tarikh Al-'Alam Al-Hadith Wal-Mu'asir [History of the New Modern World], 10th grade textbook, pp. 60-64)

7. The new Palestinian school books teach that the only ancient inhabitants of Israel were Arabs, ignoring any ancient Jewish presence: "Concentrated... in the land of Al-Sham [Greater Syria]... was the culture of the Canaanite and Aramaic peoples who migrated there from the Arab peninsula." (Tarikh al-Hadarat Al-Qadima [History of Ancient Civilizations], 5th grade textbook, Foreword)

8. The new Palestinian school books teach that Palestinians must use war and violence - especially martyrdom - to accomplish their goals: The heroic mother, "who incessantly presents one sacrifice [fida'] after another." (Lughatuna Al-Jamila [Our Beautiful Language], Vol 2, 5th grade textbook, p. 31) The warrior goes to war faced with one of the good options: victory or martyrdom in battle for the sake of Allah. (Ibid. Vol. 1, 5th grade textbook, p. 70). "Allah gave the people of this land [Al-Sham and Palestine] an important task: they must stand on the forefront of the Muslim campaign against their enemies, and only if they fulfill their duty to their religion, nation, and land will they be rewarded as stated in the scriptures." (Al-Tarbiya Al-Islamiyyah (Islamic Education), Vol 2, 10th grade textbook, p. 50)

9. The new Palestinian school books feature children with names such as Jihad (holy war) and Nidal (struggle). (Tarikh Al-Hadarat Al-Qadima [History of Ancient Civilizations], 5th grade textbook, p.6)

10. The new Palestinian school books stress the importance of "return" of refugees to all of Palestine - by violence: "The wrong must be made right by returning them to their homes: we returned to the homeland after a long absence." (Lughatuna Al-Jamila [Our Beautiful Language], Vol 2, 5th grade textbook, p. 43) "Returning to the homes, the plains and the mountains, under the banners of glory, jihad [holy war] and struggle." (Lughatuna Al-Jamila [Our Beautiful Language], Vol 1, 5th grade textbook, p.88)

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Caretaker
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Actually Freddy it would be more accurate if the baby had dynamite strapped on and it was being rolled towards the Israeli.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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freddy05
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
God bless you Walt;

The Duo of deception will look for any angle to attack and condemn Israel.

This is the reality which the liberals will continue to ignore:

 -


The Duo of Deception! I like that! [Smile]

I understand how one could agree with the rendition your cartoon of the Arab and Israel soldiers with baby carriages portrays...

However, thinking a bit more deeply, and putting things into a historical context... The reasons the arab armies have resorted to such tactics has more to do with economics and war tactics than God vs Satan. Historically, anytime an army is greatly outmatched they resort to similar tactics. Look at Colombia specifically, or any conflict throughout the world where one side was outmatched by impossible odds.

Of course this doesn´t fit in to your nice little boxed view of the world, so you will reject it.

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freddy05
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Well this ought to interesting. Can we also discuss how "liberal" the muslim nations are?

That´s a very interesting point. The muslim nations with the craziest laws are the most Conservative countries on earth.
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yahsway
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Well this ought to interesting. Can we also discuss how "liberal" the muslim nations are?
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:

WHERE is your comdemnation of the EVIL Islamists initiators of terror??

All the way through my posts in this thread actually. The main focus of my posts is on the actions of Israel as that was the topic for the thread, not a thread to post in ever greater and more flowery language that what Hezbollah do is evil. Start one on that topic and I'll post on that as well.

quote:
Originally posted by wparr:

You have NO NO NO credibility critisizing Israel if you don't condem the TRUE evil in the battle of Israel's survival.

I have condemned Hezbollah in most of my posts throughout this thread - have a read of them if you have time.

quote:
Originally posted by wparr:

NO ONE here has said Israel doesn't sin.

In fact this whole conflict is because of sin - Abraham's sin of trying to bring about Yahweh's promise in the flesh.

They are reaping now what Abraham sowed.

Then why do you not condemn this sin? Sin is sin is sin.


quote:
Originally posted by wparr:


And I don't watch Fox news (your liberal blinding bias is showing thru) because I don't get any tv programing.

Yes, it was a bit of a cheap shot and I apologise.

Yet again though, you call me a liberal as an insult but it is not such thing - liberalism has a far greater link with christianity than conservatism. However, that's out of scope of this thread - I'll start one in the political forum to cover it.

--------------------
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wparr
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ahar:

Israel is RESPONDING to Islamists who INITIATE genocidal terror.

WHERE is your comdemnation of the EVIL Islamists initiators of terror??

You have NO NO NO credibility critisizing Israel if you don't condem the TRUE evil in the battle of Israel's survival.

NO ONE here has said Israel doesn't sin.

In fact this whole conflict is because of sin - Abraham's sin of trying to bring about Yahweh's promise in the flesh.

They are reaping now what Abraham sowed.


Yahweh IS in control thru all this, and will bring Israel into His arms as they will FINALLY reconize Y'shua as Messiah. [clap2] [clap2] [clap2]

And I don't watch Fox news (your liberal blinding bias is showing thru) because I don't get any tv programing.
I get my news from multiple internet sites, and from Scripture (which tells me WHICH side is God's and which side is satan's - I PRAY you can discern that)

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Caretaker
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God bless you Walt;

The Duo of deception will look for any angle to attack and condemn Israel.

This is the reality which the liberals will continue to ignore:

 -

 -
Children wearing military camouflage uniforms and carrying Hezbollah flags in a parade. The educational institutions are raising the younger generation on the principles of violence and hatred for Israel.
Hizbullah´s Fundraising Network

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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ahar
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Hmm, I said that I wouldn't post again in this thread, but I can't ignore the last part:

You have posted your own answer wparr

Israel IS capable of sinning, as are we all. If you could go and see the horrendous damage cluster munitions do rather than sitting in your nice safe seat in the US and watching the Fox News sanitised version you would fall on your knees and weep at the horror of it. Cluster bombs are a weapon of terror, designed to leave lethal bomblets lying over a wide area and their effect particularly hits children.

You seem unable to grasp the concept of being able to critise the conduct of Israel while recognising the right to self defence and condemning the terrorists.

Why do you find this concept so difficult to grasp?

Critising Israel's actions is not an act of condemning the country - if a christian brother or sister does something wrong do you say something to them or ignore it? The same concept applies to Israel - if they do something wrong we are duty bound to condemn the action - this does not mean we are condemning the country.

I have plenty of things to repent for, but it seems from your last few posts Wparr, you have at least one today as well.

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Andy

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wparr
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Genesis 12:1-3
(1) Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you;
(2) And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;
(3) And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

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wparr
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Romans 11:1-36
(1) I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(2) God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
(3) "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
(4) But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
(5) In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
(6) But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
(7) What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
(8) just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
(9) And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
(10) "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."
(11) I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
(12) Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
(13) But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
(14) if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
(15) For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
(16) If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
(17) But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
(18) do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
(19) You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
(20) Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
(21) for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
(22) Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
(23) And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
(24) For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
(25) For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
(26) and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
(27) "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
(28) From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
(29) for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(30) For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
(31) so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
(32) For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
(33) Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
(34) For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
(35) Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
(36) For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.


Do you really grasp what Yahweh is saying here?

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wparr
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freddy, do you know HOW this is all going to end?

Yahweh HIMSELF will TOTALLY wipe out the muslims and Israel will be VICTORIOUS.

I know the begining, and I know the end, so as it all works out I know WHICH side to be on.

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wparr
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You, as a typical liberal you attack Israel.

What do you think the leaders is Israel ought to do to people who will stop at NOTHING to totally wipe them out.

And DON'T suggest peace negotiations, they have not nor WILL NOT work.

It's the MUSLIMS that send suicide bombers to PURPOSEFULLY target innocent civiilians.

The Muslims are the INITIATORS, and Israel RESPONDS.

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freddy05
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Your ignorance on the situation in southern lebanon is pure ignorance. You really think the leaflets justify the cluster bombs...

Yes I have been to Israel. I have visited with an open mind the west bank, jordan, and egypt as well. I count some jews and some arabs in the region as personal friends. I have seen first hand the destruction caused by Israel, as well as Israeli families torn apart by terrorism.

I spend more time condeming israel than arab terrorists on these boards because I see many ignorant comments about israel. I don´t see people making ignorant comments supporting terror. If people were, I would be debating them and I would probably appear very pro-israel.

Who started the aggression? Personally, I don´t think that really matters at this point... but I guess God did by commanding a group of people into an occupied land... or maybe the British with their actions post WW2... or the Israelis in the 6 day war... but the arabs were threatening so they did... but the Israelis did by holding land in the north... but Hezbollah did by capturing 2 Israeli soldiers...

Is Islam EVIL? Depends what you mean I suppose. If you mean anything that is not going to heaven, then I suppose. If you are talking about terrorist who kill in the name of islam, yes. If you are talking about the camel hearder that saved me in the sahara desert (true story) then no.

Do you think blowing up kids via neglagence is EVIL? Do you think God would support that? Does it make a difference if they are evil muslim kids?

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wparr
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And also freddy WHY aren't you as condeming of the terrorists as you are on the people fighting back?

ALL I see you doing is attacking Israel.

When someone is trying to commit genocide on your country and people (and that's what Islam IS trying to do) don't you have the RIGHT to defend yourselves with whatever it takes?

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wparr
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Two direct questions freddy

Is Islam an evil religion?

Who started the aggresions?

I'm NOT ignorant - I've been to Israel twice (not as a tourist) have you been there?

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freddy05
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
When it comes to Islam - there is NO "grey" area.

They are COMPLETELY in the black.

And therefore any means of killing them is ok, including cluster bombs in residential areas? Did those leaflets Israel dropped also mention that cluster bombs would still be in their neighborhoods once the fighting was over?

One can be against Israel´s actions in a specific instance without supporting Islam.

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freddy05
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
Israel dropped leaflets BEFORE hand warning the population.

Your ignorance on these issues is amazing. You expect a family that earns less per day than you can make in 20 minutes at McDonalds to simply pack up and leave? You don´t have to answer that, more of a rhetorical question.
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wparr
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When it comes to Islam - there is NO "grey" area.

They are COMPLETELY in the black.

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wparr
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First get the WHOLE story:

Israel dropped leaflets BEFORE hand warning the population.

I'm NOT saying they are Christ like, because they are lost.

But they are STILL Yahweh's chosen people.

And on the secular side (which is the angle your debatng from) The Muslims want to COMPLETELY wipe out Israel and all jews (and YOU TOO by the way)
So how do you defend or make peace with an evilness like that?

ALL that land belongs to Israel - Yahweh GAVE it to them - they have the RIGHT to it.

Are you going to go AGAINST Yahweh's will on this issue?

That's MIGHTY dangerous ground to be on iff you do.

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freddy05
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Wparr, let me see if I understand you then... on this issue, you see supporting Israel´s use of cluster bombs in civilian is Christlike?

Is it not at all possible that Israel could be doing some wrong? (please note: accusing Israel of wrong doing in no way means one has to support Islam. Some issues are not as black and white as you like to think...)

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wparr
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Hey freddy, if you support or defend Islam in ANY way, you are supporting satan.

Islam is God's ENEMY which is why they want to kill ALL Jews.

If you are the christian you claim to be, HOW can you support or defend God's enemies???

Islam is a religion born of satan's lies and deceptions, and ALL who practice and follow it are at ODDS with God.

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freddy05
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
My feeling is that Israel has NOT crossed that line

Glad you support cluster bombs in civilian areas.
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
quote:
Originally posted by David:
But they have not, so you are worrying about something that has not happened.

You could say that God may say He really is not God. But that don't make it true.

I used that as an example of a line that you might draw in critism of Israel. Either Israel is immune to critism or it is not - if not then the decision is where you draw the line and how you balance critism of what might be called sinful actions, with risking 'cursing' Israel as described in Genesis.

My feeling is that Israel has crossed that line and deserves to be rebuked for some of its actions - clearly everyone else posting in the tread doesn't!

My feeling is that Israel has NOT crossed that line

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Caretaker
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God bless each of my Brothers and Sisters who honor Israel in their hearts and prayers. They say a picture is worth a thousand words and in this case many more:


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A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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helpforhomeschoolers
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Amen David:


quote:
There is no use to debate something that is not debateable.

Israel is doing the right thing!!!

That is why they are at war. The debate is over and they have taken action because they are in the right. Period.

So I am on their side and continue to stand there.

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Caretaker
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web page

“After one month of war against Lebanon's resistance, Israelis are the absolute losers and Hizbullah is the absolute winner of the war,” Iran's Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamida-Reza Asefi said Sunday. “The occupiers of Jerusalem failed, despite their military, economic, intelligence and diplomatic backings.”

The Iranian official said the Islamic Republic of Iran is “very pleased” with the ceasefire, according to state-run Iranian news agency IRNA. He warned, though, that attacks on Israel would continue as long as “occupation lingers.” He declined to outline whether occupation included retaining sovereignty in regions such as the Galilee – which Hizbullah chief Hassan Nasrallah has termed “settlements” in his wartime addresses. "Let us not forget that as long as there is occupation there is resistance," he added.

Hizbullah central council member Ahmed Barakat told Qatari newspaper al-Watan Sunday, "Today Arab and Muslim society is reasonably certain that the defeat of Israel is possible, and that countdown to the disappearance of the Zionist entity in the region has begun… If a mere organization succeeded in defeating Israel, why would Arab nations not succeed in doing so if they allied? Many Arabs and Muslims viewed Israel in a fictional way and the resistance has succeeded in changing this."

Barakat boasted that none of Hizbullah’s leadership were injured, and that the group still possesses thousands of rockets and other “surprises” for use in the days following the implementation of the UN ceasefire. He added that the remaining missiles and weapons allow Hizbullah to strike Israel from afar and do not require the group to be near Israel’s border.

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--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Caretaker
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http://directory.kol-israel.com/asites/?

European carriers canceled flights Thursday to Britain, where airports were experiencing massive delays after authorities thwarted a terrorist plot to blow up aircraft in flight.

Heathrow airport, the busiest airport in Europe, was closed to most European flights Thursday morning following a heightened terrorist alert, officials said. Flights from Tel Aviv to the UK were also cancelled, sources said.

All airlines stopped flights Thursday from Brussels to Heathrow, which was closed until 2 p.m. (1200GMT).

"For now, all flights to London Heathrow have been canceled," a Brussels international Airport official said, speaking on condition of anonymity in line with standing policy. He did not elaborate.

British police said they had arrested 21 people in connection with the plot which was "intended to be mass murder on an unimaginable scale," a senior official said Thursday.

Deputy Commissioner Paul Stephenson said the 21 had been arrested in London, its suburbs and in Birimingham, and that searches continued in a number of locations.

German carrier Lufthansa said its morning and early afternoon flights were canceled because of "logistical and not security" reasons. No other Lufthansa flights were affected.

Spain's Iberia said it had canceled four flights to Britain in total, and Italian carrier Alitalia stopped six flights through London _ four linking the city with Rome and two with Milan. Alitalia said it would decide later Thursday whether to continue the cancelations.

Heathrow's block on incoming traffic applied to flights of three hours or less, an airport spokesman said on condition of anonymity. Congestion was building up rapidly at the airport as authorities enforced strict new regulations banning most hand baggage.

Britain's Home Secretary John Reid said the alleged plot was significant and that terrorists aimed to "bring down a number of aircraft through mid-flight explosions, causing a considerable loss of life."

Police arrested a number of people in London after a major covert counterterrorism operation that had lasted several months, but did not immediately say how many.

The US government responded by raising its threat assessment to the highest level for commercial flights from Britain to the United States early Thursday.

"We believe that these arrests (in London) have significantly disrupted the threat, but we cannot be sure that the threat has been entirely eliminated or the plot completely thwarted," said US Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff.

Passengers faced delays as tighter security was hastily enforced at the country's airports and additional measures were put in place for all flights, and British Airways said some flights were likely to be canceled. Laptop computers, mobile phones, iPods, and remote controls were among the items banned from being carried on board.

"The police believe the alleged plot was a very significant one indeed," Reid said.

"At 2 a.m. this morning the Joint Terrorism Analysis Center raised the UK threat state to its highest level - critical."

The 'critical' level means authorities believed an imminent terrorist attack was likely.

Prime Minister Tony Blair, vacationing in the Caribbean, had brief US President George W. Bush on the situation overnight, Blair's office said.

The Department of Transport advised all passengers that they would not be permitted to carry any hand baggage on board any aircraft departing from any airport in the country.

Prescription medicines were OK; so were eyeglasses but not their cases, the department said. Contact lenses could be taken aboard in their cases, but bottles of solution were banned.

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--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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freddy05
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Wparr- looks like we´ve been taking over this thread on the compassion issue. Which I still do think is related insofar as having compassion for the suffer of those caught in the middle. (mainly arabs from Lebanon) I started a new thread to continue that discussion so we can get back to Israel here.
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wparr
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I won't begin to try to defend my level of compassion to you freddy because it would be pointless, you wouldn't listen or believe anyway.

If you think I'm saying don't feed poor or anything like that they you're not hearing what I'm saying.

Good works, independant of God, from an ETERNAL perspective is meaningless.

What does it benifit if a mormon feeds a hungry person if both end up in hell?

Answer that.

It's just your perspective is now and earthly, while mine is more kingdomly and eternal.

Meeting the physical needs has to be combined with the eternal needs if it's going to have any meaning.

Mother Theresa did a lot of "good" works, but she lost sight of the eternal and wasn't concerned about letting hindus and such know about Jesus, so WHAT does that accomplish?


Did you, in reading Scripture notice that Jesus DIDN'T heal all He came across?

He most definately hade the ability didn't He?

Was He lacking in compassion?

So I ask you why didn't He?

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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by freddy05:

I can guarantee you, that giving food (without bible) to starving person means a lot to the starving person.

And I can guarantee that if a "christian" feeds a starving person and DOESN'T care about the eternal condition of their soul that are LACKING Christ compassion.
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Eduardo Grequi
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You know, I dislike wars immensely, but it seems to me, when your choices are either the sea or an Arabian sword, there are not too many choices, and that is exactly what has confronted Israel since 1948. The world's media is not just of the left and for dictatorships, they are also afraid of the Hezbullahs of the world. Everything is about the Lebanese now, all the pictures are about bloody Lebanese people. I do feel immensely for them, especially the innocent who might not have been a participator on the hiding of arms and Hezbullah men. Those that hide them, I am sorry but they are as guilty as those shooting rockets. For six years they have been entrenching in Lebanon, and the Shias of Lebanon have allowed it to happen. So, if the world press would think a bit in an intelligent way, when they show pictures, they should say--This is what happens to people who hide terrorists. But no, its the poor defenseless people. They are not defenseless. Again I ask, why were so many women and children dying? Must have been planned to place them in harms way. They needed to show that the Israelis were killing their innocent women and children to get sympathizers, especially the Arab world for adherence, and for the Europeans to convince them a bit more. So, they got their opportunity with the worlds media. The media should be plain. They should tell them to come out and fight instead of hiding under the skirts of women or among children. I have no respect whatsoever for the media, neither has most of the American people according to the 'Polls". Why are the "media" entrenched in Lebanon? They want to get the Pulitzer prize. That is the major reason they are there for and risking limb. Of course, all networks are competing for prime time killing, to satiate the thirst of the new Roman audience.
People seem to want to see blood and guts splashed all over their TV screen. I am telling you, we should all be sending messages to the media networks and give them our opinion.
First there were the Jews, then the Christians, then they came for our neighbor and we said nothing, then they came for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And now its not the Otto Turks, no, now are those so full of even more hate for what we have and don't have, they kill, yes, they aim at innocent civilians.
I hope Israel goes at it now and ends it soon, otherwise it will just get too complicated. It has already taking too long. I know its hard to find the enemy, after all they hide without an army, amongst civilians. What cowards!
MariaV


I agree with Maria my Jewish sister on this post!

Shalom,

Eduardo


__._,_.___

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freddy05
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
You have NO IDEA of my attitude to the poor and suffering.

I DO have compassion, but the tempral MUST be tied to the eternal or it's wasted.

I've voluntered at a truck stop chapel for going on 4 years now - and I minister to the homeless and drunks there in the area.

I've been to Israel twice (not tourist)
To Ivory Coast twice and Haiti, so I've SEEN real suffering.
With Haiti, they root of the problem there is demonic as voodoo is well practiced and has a major stronhold.
Giving food WITHOUT trying to break the demonic strongholds is POINTLESS.

It sounds like when you´ve traveled, you´ve done so with your mind made up. Someone who is too closed minded cannot be moved even by seeing real suffering. It sounds like when you´ve seen suffering, you simply place in its place in your view of the great cosmic sporting event.

And you have made your attitude towards the poor and suffering VERY clear. And that is why I think you do have some business with God to take care of. (ie repentance)

And from pragmatic experience, I can tell you that shoving religion down the throats of the poor and suffering will often turn more people away from God than you actually end up helping. If I was a non-Christian, and all the Christians I met had your attitude towards helping the poor, I would run as far away from Christ as posssible. Fortunately, the people I knew in my life that were Christians lived out compassion and love towards all people with no strings attached. That is what drew me in.

I can guarantee you, that giving food (without bible) to starving person means a lot to the starving person.

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wparr
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quote:
Originally posted by freddy05:
The point of the comparison is to try to help you try to understand a bit more about what real people are going through in the middle east. I don´t know if its simply that you have a hard heart, or if its that your politics trump the message of compassion Jesus had, or what... but I do know the attitude that you have towards to poor and suffering is not Christ.

Think about how you would feel if the government tried to take a house from you for a freeway project. Real people are having their lives destroyed, without compensation, by a foreign government. I can´t rejoice in that because it fits into the "gameplan" of one view of how the end times will play out.

You have NO IDEA of my attitude to the poor and suffering.

I DO have compassion, but the tempral MUST be tied to the eternal or it's wasted.

I've voluntered at a truck stop chapel for going on 4 years now - and I minister to the homeless and drunks there in the area.

I've been to Israel twice (not tourist)
To Ivory Coast twice and Haiti, so I've SEEN real suffering.
With Haiti, they root of the problem there is demonic as voodoo is well practiced and has a major stronhold.
Giving food WITHOUT trying to break the demonic strongholds is POINTLESS.


quote:
Originally posted by freddy05:

Perhaps one day God will give the land to Israel by peaceful means. I can´t imangine that at this point in history, but I wouldn´t put it past God.

Do you even read Scripture??

If you did, you would realize THAT won't happen

When Yahweh delivers the land back to Israel it's going to be BLOODY with MAJOR suffering.

But in the end Yahweh's enemies will be CRUSHED.

My focus is to get people on the RIGHT team before it's TOO LATE.

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freddy05
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
Yahweh never promised this land to the Indians, so that comparison is meaningless.

The point of the comparison is to try to help you try to understand a bit more about what real people are going through in the middle east. I don´t know if its simply that you have a hard heart, or if its that your politics trump the message of compassion Jesus had, or what... but I do know the attitude that you have towards to poor and suffering is not Christ.

Think about how you would feel if the government tried to take a house from you for a freeway project. Real people are having their lives destroyed, without compensation, by a foreign government. I can´t rejoice in that because it fits into the "gameplan" of one view of how the end times will play out.

Perhaps one day God will give the land to Israel by peaceful means. I can´t imangine that at this point in history, but I wouldn´t put it past God.

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wparr
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Yahweh never promised this land to the Indians, so that comparison is meaningless.

Yahweh is the SAME as He was 3000 years ago.

His Covenant STILL stands.

Israel is STILL His chosen Nation and He WILL restore it.

The Jewish are STILL His chosen people (even though most are rejecting Him, but that WILL change)

The enemies of Israel are STILL Yahweh's enemies - are you are lining up with Yahweh's enemies.


The Church has NOT replaced Israel - that is a heritical false teaching - we were added; grafted in (read Romans 10&11)

Not as much has changed between OT and NT as you would like to think.
The NT explains and FULLFILLS the OT - not replaces it.
But thats for a different post.

Repent of siding with Yahweh's enemies before it's to late.
Get on the WINNING side of the war between good (Yahweh)and evil (satan and the world)

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freddy05
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Wparr- I definately appreciate your passion on the issues!

If we were in year 300BC, perhaps I would agree with you. But we are living after the time of Christ. After the time in which "the rules changed". Most people on the board seem to agree that we can´t take the OT as literal in the sense of following all the commands. (ie stoning people to death or condemning people for wearing clothes with two types of fabric, etc...) I view presant day action through the lens of Christ´s love first. And in the situation in the middle east and the response of Israel, I will not simply give them a blank check of support to take the land outlined in the old testement and killing innocents along the way.

I wonder what American´s response would be if Native Americans amassed power and started taking back that which their people owned for many years...

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wparr
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Feed on this Freddy.

Genesis 15:18-21
(18) On that day Yahweh made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:
(19) the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite
(20) and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim
(21) and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite."


Joshua 1:1-6
(1) Now it came about after the death of Moses the servant of Yahweh, that the LORD spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' servant, saying,
(2) "Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, cross this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel.
(3) "Every place on which the sole of your foot treads, I have given it to you, just as I spoke to Moses.
(4) "From the wilderness and this Lebanon, even as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and as far as the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun will be your territory.
(5) "No man will be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I have been with Moses, I will be with you; I will not fail you or forsake you.
(6) "Be strong and courageous, for you shall give this people possession of the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.


Freddy and ahar: with Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4 in mind, the land Yahweh gave to Israel included everything from the Nile river in Egypt to Lebanon (North to South) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (West to East).

So, what land has Yahwe stated belongs to Israel?

All of the land modern Israel currently possesses, plus all of the land of the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.


IF you belive Yahweh is the Creator, and IF you belive Scripture, that there can be NO debating that Israel has TOTAL right to ALL that land.


Has Israel sinned - YUP YUP - and one of thoses sins is their FAILURE to take and occupy the land Yahweh indisputably deeded to them.

And they have been reaping what that have sown in their failures.

But K N O W this, Yahweh WILL fullfill His promise - Israel WILL get ALL the land given to them by the Creator who has the UNQUESTIONABLE right to do so.


If you have ANY problem with any of that, then your problem is with Yahweh, and you need to repent of it.

The unrightful occupiers of the land that TRUELY and RIGHTFULLY belongs to Israel are ENEMIES of Yahweh, and to side and defend them is to aline yourself as an ENEMY of Yahweh.

That is NOT a wise thing to do.

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Caretaker
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Here is an indepth article:

http://www.foxven.com/s-self.html

He who fails to dress properly in freezing weather, claiming Jesus is his healer, is naive if not foolish. If God specifically tells him to go out without proper dress in a particular instance, that is a different matter. But to be presumptuous is to act foolishly. As Christians, we lock the doors of our homes. We keep our car keys in our pockets or purses, not in the ignition switch. Do these actions demonstrate lack of faith? No, they are prudent measures while living in a sinful world. Yet our confidence is ultimately in the Lord, not our prudent measures. If the government passes a law making household locks illegal, nothing really changes; our confidence ultimately is in the Lord. And under such a law, if anyone entered our house to take our property, whether a criminal or government representative, should the nature of our faith change? What if the person, either a criminal or government representative, intended us physical harm? Should our perspective change? My point is this: if our government strips us of any means to protect ourselves, whatever the motive might be, our perspective must not change. Christianity is relationship with God Almighty and is independent of the civil government under which we live. Civil government may influence the outward expression of our relationship with God, but can never take it away.

The Old Testament included a law regarding the use of deadly force against an intruder in your home, and the issue was the conditions under which the homeowner killed the intruder. Defending family and home was not the issue; use of weapons was not the issue; even killing the intruder at night was not an issue. The issue was whether the homeowner killed the intruder during the day, when he could better judge the intruder's intention and the intruder could see the homeowner was present and willing to protect his household. Displaying a weapon and being willing to use it can be and often is a deterrent. The right of the homeowner to defend his household was granted under specific conditions in the Old Testament. The New Testament does not clearly take away that right, which suggests it still exists.

Those totally opposed to weapons may cite the absence of swords or their use in the New Testament after the Day of Pentecost. Scripture also doesn't refer to sandals after the Book of Acts, but we can be certain believers continued to wear them. Swords were common in those days, so if it were wrong for believers to own or use swords, we can expect scripture to clearly say so; but it doesn't.

The New Testament includes incidents involving soldiers, which were perfect opportunities to oppose killing of any kind, but such opposition is absent. In Luke 3:14, soldiers asked John what they should do; this was a perfect opportunity for John to tell them to resign from the military or not to kill. But he responded by telling them not to extort money or accuse people falsely, and to be content with their pay. In Acts 10, we see Cornelius, a centurion in the Italian regiment, a devout and God-fearing man. An angel appeared to him in a vision, did not rebuke him for being a soldier, but instead indicated his prayers and gifts to the poor were special to God. The angel directed him to send for Peter. This lead to Peter overcoming his religious bias against non-Jews and to the first gentile believers being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Imagine: professional warriors being told to be content with their pay and being honored by God for their prayers and gifts to the poor!

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To permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong. To allow a rape when one could have hindered it is an evil. To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable. In brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission. Any man who refuses to protect his wife and children against a violent intruder fails them morally."

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Is it Biblically wrong for a policeman to use necessary force to stop a criminal?

Romans 13:
1: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2: Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3: For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5: Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6: For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7: Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.


I spray hornet's nests and remove the threat to my family and others.

I have shot a rabid cat on my front porch, eliminating the threat to others.

I have identified a fugitive who had stolen and crashed a truck and was on the loose overnight, called-in the Sheriff and he was arrested.

I confronted a man with a twelve gauge shotgun, in the middle of the night, who was at the end of his neighbor's driveway, intending to shoot the dogs who had just killed his. I turned him around and got him back home.

I have interposed myself between three fathers who were going to beat-up a young drunk who had been shooting bottle rockets into their children's tents, had the Sheriff's Officer called to the scene, and the young man taken into custody.

I have stood with firehose in hand, and stopped the wall of flame before it could reach the mobile home.

I have called-in aid and rendered assistance to the two young drunks who rolled their dune-buggy down a rocky hill.

I have administered cpr to a dead man.

I have certified with a .357 as part of my training with the local SO, just as I have trained for 100's of hours with the fire equipment with the local volunteer department.

On many occaisons I have responded with most fervent prayers to emegency situations. Many times we have faced a wall of flame racing across the hills, and we have knocked it down before it could get by. Our faith and trust in God, and doing what was prudent and needed at the time.

Is one to seek to have necessary force utilized in the stopping of criminal activity?

Is it right to call the policeman to stop the burglar who is breaking into your neighbor's home?

Is it right to call the police to stop the thugs from assaulting the victim in the street?

Are we to pass-by the wounded man by the roadside, or are we to be the Samaritan?

Is the Samaritan to intervene to stop the victim from being attacked?

Are we to be a Ten Boom and hide the Jews from the Nazis?

Was it wrong to defeat the Nazis and to free the prison camps?

When one is yeilded to our Lord then often He will place us into a position to use our training and expertisse to render aid to another. We extriceted the young man with the broken leg, using our skill and training.

I am reminded of Seargent York:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York

York eventually was drafted into the United States Army and assigned to the 82nd Infantry Division in 1917.

At some point he experienced a change of heart and decided he would fight, but would never be proud of his war-time exploits.

As a corporal in the 328th Infantry, in the Battle of Meuse River-Argonne Forest on 1918 October 8, he assumed command of his detachment after three other NCOs fell. While he is sometimes described as acting single-handedly, his official citation says he led seven others in a charge on an active machine-gun nest. They killed 32 German soldiers and captured 132, including four officers. (He is said to have explained this feat by saying to the enemy that they were surrounded.)

Initially, York's chain of command honored this accomplishment by awarding him the Distinguished Service Cross. France, whose forces he was directly aiding and whose territory was involved, added its Croix de Guerre and Legion of Honor. Italy and Montenegro, also allies, awarded him their Croce di Guerra and War Medal, respectively. The Distinguished Service Cross was upgraded to the Medal of Honor, which was presented to York by the commanding general of the American Expeditionary Force, John J. Pershing.

At the time of his heroics, York was in fact still a corporal. His promotion to sergeant was part of the honor that he received for his valor but resulted in his becoming known to the United States (and much of the world) as "Sergeant York".


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Self-defense for me is a generic term which describes the training and ability to neutralize an attack. The use of self-defense techniques can neutralize the attack upon others. If we love our neighbors then we are willing to assist with our skills and abilities.

For myself I have no fear, for to live is Christ, and to die is gain for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. My fear as I respond to the fireline, as I respond to the rollover accident, as I respond to the phyusical threat to my neighbors, is that I might fail to act suficently, might let the threat get past me and subsequent harm to others might result. The others in our department know that I will step forward, place my hand on their shoulder, and handle my share of the firehose. When dispatch calls they know that I will go out into the night to stand-in for the officer until he can arrive. When I am called at 4:00 AM, the caller knows that I will be there for them.

Failure to act, to stand aside and allow predation, when one is in a position and has the ability to act, is a facilitation of the predator.

Israel must stand and act against the predators.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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freddy05
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
There is no use to debate something that is not debateable.

Well.... it is debatable... you just have chosen to ignore the counter points.

Again...

In the Bible, Israel sinned. Many times. God was against that sin. I think so far, this point is undebatable...

Israel can and probably will sin again! So don´t just take everything they do as something with God´s blessing. You may be supporting sin! Patriotism is usually more a psycological response than a locical or biblical one... When you look at two people... at the very essence of who they are, they are people. American, Canadian, British, Chinese, Saudi, Brazilian, Kenyan.... people...

That is why I´m dissappointed with nothing deeper than a patriotic flag waving response to what I feel are valid points worth debating.

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freddy05
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quote:
Originally posted by WKUHilltopper:

And what if some rogue outfit in Canada were lobbing a 1,000 missiles into our country? I guess we'd just sit by and do nothing.

NUKE 'EM I say! Toronto, Vancouver, Ottowa! After all 3000 American lives are worth more than a 100,000 homosexual-supporting-Canadians anyday!

(Sarcasm)

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WKUHilltopper
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If'n y'all wanna blame someone, blame Lebanon. If they hadn't harbored these thugs in their country for years, then their citizens wouldn't be going thru this. They are reaping what they sow.

And what if some rogue outfit in Canada were lobbing a 1,000 missiles into our country? I guess we'd just sit by and do nothing.

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Kindgo
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God "chose" his people in the Old Testament


Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
Ah, a flag graphic - It seems we've run out of debate and gone to animated GIF files. I salute your cunning argument sir [Wink]

There is no use to debate something that is not debateable.

Israel is doing the right thing!!!

That is why they are at war. The debate is over and they have taken action because they are in the right. Period.

So I am on their side and continue to stand there.

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Caretaker
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Article


Jewish institutions and individuals have been discussing how they are affected by media reporting. Last week, the Community Security Trust, which advises and represents the Jewish community on security and anti-Semitism, asked me to tell the Church Times that:

"It frequently appears that there are no limits to the hatred and bias that can be expressed against Israel or Zionism. Anti-Semites take comfort from this hatred, and regard it as a cue to attack Jews at random here in Britain. Anti-Semitic incidents’ levels since the year 2000 have been the worst recorded in decades. The rise in incidents is appalling. This would have been unthinkable just a few years ago."

The Board of Deputies described its concern at the fact that "In 2004, there were 532 anti-Semitic incidents in the UK, which was a 42 per cent increase on the figures for 2003, which was a substantial increase on the figures for 2002."


THE BBC apologised when the Scottish hymn-writer, the Revd Dr John Bell of the Iona Community, "made two factual mistakes" about the Israeli army on the Radio 4’s Thought for the Day in February.

This was a wake-up call for the Jewish community, even though Christian aid agencies and "peace groups" have for a long time appeared to us to be attacking Israel, and ignoring attempts to hear other points of view. Individual Jews have reported experiencing violent verbal attacks during public pro-Palestinian meetings held in church buildings.

Joanne Green, a Jewish journalist, said: "Despite the BBC charter, I can’t think of any programmes that are critical of the Palestinians, despite their kangaroo courts, public hangings, threats to journalists, incitement to racial and religious hatred, corruption, and threats to destroy Israel.

"Also, as an active member of the Council of Christians and Jews, I feel betrayed by the Anglican Church. All those receptions at St James’s Palace and earnest tributes from church leaders regretting their millennia-long persecution of the Jews don’t mean anything any more. When Jews need real recognition of the danger they are in, where is the Church? Aligning themselves with those who want to wipe Israel from the face of the earth, after it was they who were responsible for the Holocaust. Forgive them, Lord, for they probably do know exactly what they do. How dare the Church lecture Jews on morality."

Many people mention the Church’s apparent silence in the face of the growing attacks on the British Jewish community. For one seasoned American journalist and Episcopalian cleric: "In Britain, there is a degree of open anti-Semitism that would be unthinkable in the USA. The C of E has been complicit in this, both by keeping silent, and by not cracking down on its members who cross the line in their advocacy of the Palestinian cause, and fall into Jew-baiting."

Canon Andrew White, CEO of the Foundation for Reconciliation in the Middle East, agrees. "Is there a new anti-Semitism?" he asks. "For Jews, disinvestment [in Israel] is not just anti-Zionism, but anti-Semitism. Christians defend their position by saying they are against Israel, not the Jews. Yet there is no call by the Christians to disinvest from countries where Christians are persecuted, or banned. Israel is viewed as the evil nation, that evil democratic nation — that just happens to be the only homeland for the Jewish people in the world.

"Now that there is an acute awareness of the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism, the Christian world needs to wake up to the fact that more Jews have been killed by Christians than by Muslims. It is no longer sufficient for the Church to blame Israel for its own anti-Semitism. The replacement theology that laid the ground for nearly two millennia of anti-Judaic polemic is on its way back. This time, it is dressed up as concern for the Palestinians."

Benjamin, a 32-year-old Jew, who stayed at my house last Shabbat, en route to an International Council of Christians and Jews convention, said: "Christians are encouraged to love their enemies. We are no longer the enemy, just irrelevant; no longer the enemy, just the object of hate and vilification."

For, as the Holocaust author Raoul Hillberg has said: "There is a straight line from ‘You have no right to live among us as Jews’ to ‘You have no right to live among us’ to ‘You have no right to live.’"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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wparr
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Why would I want to listen to sermons from the CoE when the head supports druids and homosexuality?

When the leader is Godless, what happens to the rest??

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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Andy you have been indoctrinated with anti-Israel prejudice from your media, and especially from the pulpits of the Church of England. Your intial posts in this thread, showed your intrinsic bias as you reiterated the liberal catch-phrases, in sweeping condemnation:

Why don't you come on over and actually listen to the sermons from the pulpit of CoE churches. As someone who actually listens to them, as opposed to you who selects a few articles from the internet that reinforce your current views, I can tell you the only time the middle east comes up is in prayers for the suffering across everyone there.

I love the way that you use the word 'liberal' as an insult. I regard christianity as going beyond liberal - it is a radical religion. I've always thought that it is very difficult to reconcile religion and politics if you are a conservative. Calling me a liberal is, to me, a compliment!

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:


This is the same liberal bottom-line which the doctored photos and false reports from Lebenan seeks to reinforce.

The truth of the matter is that Israel practices great restraint in its responses, and has utilized surgical strikes rather than blanket decimation, which would more effectively clear the areas, and keep their troops much safer. It is Israel which has a high regard for human life, unlike their enemy.

I have never argued that Hizbollah is in the right, or that they are not a terrorist organisation.

However, Israel has a long history of undertaking military operations without much regard to civilians. A good example is the assasination operations against members of different terrorist organisations witin the west bank and Gaza. They get intelligence that the people they are after are driving along streets in their cars and they send helicopter gunships in to fire missles at the car - in crowded city streets. The people they are after die, but what of all the people just walking around the streets, unaware of who may be driving around. Imagine you are walking down the street and the USAF suddenly bomb a car near you because they want to get the person in the car. You've lost you arm and your daughter in the attack, but he hoh, such is life. Oh, I forgot, the difference is that they are Arab muslims and are exempt from the rules in christianity. They don't deserve the same protection everyone else gets.

As for saying they use surgical strikes, it is you that has been seduced by the pictures on TV. Cluster bombs are not surgical. Artilery shells are not surgical. Most bombs are not surgical. They will always be a few civilians killed in war - it is inevitable. But the way that Israel has gone about it's attacks is sometimes criminally negligent.

Israel is STILL bombing appartment blocks in Beiruit, saying that they are bombing Hizbollah offices. Offices???? Is is right to put so many civilians at high risk just to make Hizbollah hold meetings in a place without a proper desk????


quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:

You have been indoctrinated by your culture with an intrinsic animosity towards Israel. It is the perspective which you bring to the table, and a very real reflection of the European attitude in general.

You have no idea about European culture - I doubt you've even been here (maybe for a week's holiday). You just stick to your little web sites which reinforce you views and make you feel good wihtout having to think about the big issues that may uncomfortably clash with you're incredibly entrenched prejudiced views.

You profess christianity and closeness with Christ yet you still have not said what you think Jesus would think about this. Do you really believe he would look at the destruction being caused and say "Yes, given the balance of the situation this is unaviodable. Forget what I said about love your neighbour and turn the other cheek, what we really need are more precision guided bombs".

This is my last post in this thread - reply to my points if you want but I think we are heading towards an implementation of Godwin's law.

--------------------
Cheers

Andy

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Caretaker
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Letter To Tony Blair

Here in Britain, support for terrorism among large sections of the Muslim population is an alarming trend that must surely be cut off before it grows to unmanageable proportions. I believe you are right to call for the glorification of terrorism to become an offence, but I also believe you have been taking advice from sections within the Muslim community that are committed to an anti-Western, anti-British, and anti-Semitic view of the world.

If Hizbullah should proclaim even a partial victory, I would expect to see more young Muslims here flock to the banner of jihad, whether to fight abroad or here in the UK.

In the Middle East, force alone will not solve a deeply embedded problem.

But one thing I am certain of and that is so long as its neighbors do not recognize Israel and its right to exist, there will never be peace.

With a terrorist organization in control of Gaza and dominant in the West Bank, with a terrorist army on its borders, and with an apocalyptic Iranian president determined to wipe it from the map, Israel is faced with the greatest threat ever suffered by any nation since these islands faced the armies of the Third Reich.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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