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Author
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Topic: Was Jesus perfect?
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Amen Drew and thank you for that; These discusions are humbling because they make me to realize the real inability that I have in my human capacity to define God. I can see why the Messorets (sp?) feared to even write his name. We do walk on Holy Ground when we try to speak of these things and should proceed with great caution. It is one thing to understand in our inner most being that Jesus though he walked in human flesh never ceased to be God and yet to articulate it is quite another thing. And yet the desire to articulate it is there because to miss that point is to miss what God really did for us on that Cross and how truly beyond comprehension is his GREAT LOVE for us.
If God's will is perfect and we know that it is..we know that Jesus was perfect for HE is the very manifestation of that Perfect Will.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
For me Jesus was within and according to the perfect will of God from His incarnation within the womb of Mary, until His ascension to the right hand of the Father. At no time was He not within the will of God, and from this perspective comes my vote of yes.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eduardo Grequi
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Member # 3984
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posted
If Jesus would have sin, then he could not have been the Messiah. If Jesus had sin, then Christianity is based on a lie. If Jesus would had sin, then there is no peace within.
I am confident- the scripture declares, Jesus knew no sin. THere are those who believe he did sin, then their faith is built on themselves and believe in no Messiah.
If Jesus would have sin, then he could not die for my sin, for then he died for his sin. One committed sin, makes you a servent to sin. One sin makes you seperate from God.
I make no apologies for my faith Jesus my Lord is sinless. He died for mine. He did arose from death and became victorious of it.
PSALMS 118:19
I WILL NOT DIE BUT LIVE AND DECLARE THE WORKS OF THE LORD FOREVER.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Well, I dont think that you should shy from posting ever. I always find your posts well thought out and interesting and have learned from them!!!
This is an excellent discussion. I did believe that I understood where you were going, which is why I proceeded with such caution in my answers. I actually think that your idea is very deep.
quote:
Ultimately, what I was trying to flesh out with the poll is, what do people believe about Jesus' humanity. He was fully human, yet fully God. But, did He empty Himself of the "God things" to become fully human?
Good question. I would ask did he need to? And in what ways? What does the scripture say?
This is a mystery that men have for 2000 years tried to express with our limited human ability.
One scripture that comes to mind of course is this one:
Hebrews 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Now this is interesting because verse 6 above refersof course to the Psalm:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psalm 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Now note that this says man and the SON OF MAN. Then look at the words from this Psalm if they were in Greek...
4 What is man that Thou rememberest him? The son of man that Thou inspectest him?
5 And causest him to lack a little of Godhead, And with honour and majesty compassest him.
6 Thou dost cause him to rule Over the works of Thy hands, All Thou hast placed under his feet.
Now I know that this psalm was not written in Greek but Hebrew... and the hebrew words are "little lack elohim"... again this says the man and the son of man..
Now look here:
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
This tell me that in Jesus who is Christ, there was the Son of Man who was lacking some of the Godhead ( he was able to suffer death in the flesh) and yet at the very same time, he was also SON OF GOD and in HIM dwelled the fullness of the Godhead. Jesus was both son of man and son of God at the same time always.
The Son of Man did learn; did suffer temptation; did have a human will to be surrendered; did die a death in the flesh; did bear the sins of men in the flesh; did atone for the sin of the just and the unjust in the flesh.... but this was possible because he never ceased to be the SON OF GOD in whom the fullness of the Godhead did dwell bodily. Jesus had one nature and that nature was the nature of GOD!
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Could Jesus have errored? Only if he walked in the flesh of the Son of Man apart from the Son of God that he was also. Which he could not do because his nature was the nature of God.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
No think on thesse things as they apply to the Born again believer who is beggoten again of God and you can see why we must remain in the Spirit.
Jesus had a human substance,God was manifest in the flesh, and though the substance of his person was human Jesus had the nature of God.
If I am born again, then the body is dead because of sin in the flesh... but the Spirit is life because of Christ. I am being transformed into the image of The Son of God which is an image like sinful flesh, but that has no sin in the flesh and does not sin, and when I die and shed this body where sin lives, and my spiritual body is redeemed from this body of sin and death, that transformation will be complete... but in this life I am learning to walk in the Spirit which is the nature of my re-birth... the nature of the SON of God begotten again by God in me.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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redkermit
Advanced Member
Member # 4059
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posted
This is why I don't post much. I often struggle to find the words to express the ideas I'm trying to portray. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Ultimately, what I was trying to flesh out with the poll is, what do people believe about Jesus' humanity. He was fully human, yet fully God. But, did He empty Himself of the "God things" to become fully human? A preacher put it this way, I am a human. I am not a hand. I can cut off my hand, therefore no longer have that hand, but I am still human.
So, with that concept in mind, Jesus being fully human, would he not make mistakes? For example, again, given by this preacher, growing up as a young boy, learning the language, wouldn't Jesus have at times used "is" instead of "are", so to speak. Or, learning to be a carpenter, did he form every piece of wood perfectly?
So, my idea is not so deep perhaps, but then again maybe it is deeper than it seems...
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
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Posts: 604 | From: Michigan | Registered: Nov 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
If that means that Jesus was a complete human, yes. I believe that Jesus was simultaneously 100% Human and 100% God manifest in the flesh.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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redkermit
Advanced Member
Member # 4059
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I would caution the use of "perfect" and "sinless" synonomously.
Actually that was NOT my intent. I apologize if it came across that way. The intent of the question was, putting aside the sinless factor, do you think Jesus was perfect as a human. That is why I pointed out taking the totality of His life from infancy to crucifixion.
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Listen Online:
www.wmuz.com
www.997flr.org
Posts: 604 | From: Michigan | Registered: Nov 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
I amswered your question yes, because you used perfect as without sin, but........
I would caution the use of "perfect" and "sinless" synonomously. Perfect is a word in the Bible that means whole or complete, brought to the fullness of....
Sinless is to be without sin. The Bible says that Jesus had in HIM no sin; and that HE did no sin.
Jesus was born sinless, but he was not perfect at his birth; he had to learn the things of God; he had to be annointed by the Spirit for HIS walk to the cross; he had to die in the flesh and be risen.... CHRIST - The CHRIST that we see in Revelation, and the CHRIST that is coming back the LION Of the TRIBE OF Judah is PERFECT. The GLORFIED CHIRST IS Perfect.
This is perfect:
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
But Jesus came in the image of sinful flesh and though his flesh was without sin... the image of Adam that he bore was not a perfect image.
This is the image of perfect:
Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
I voted yes, for as God is perfect, God manifest in the flesh, must necessarily be perfection, the maturity and highest ideal which man should seek after.
Main Entry: 1per·fect
Pronunciation: 'p&r-fikt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English parfit, from Old French, from Latin perfectus, from past participle of perficere to carry out, perfect, from per- thoroughly + facere to make, do -- more at DO
1 a : being entirely without fault or defect : FLAWLESS a perfect diamond> b : satisfying all requirements : ACCURATE c : corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept <a perfect gentleman> d : faithfully reproducing the original; specifically : LETTER-PERFECT e : legally valid
2 : EXPERT, PROFICIENT <practice makes perfect>
3 a : PURE, TOTAL b : lacking in no essential detail : COMPLETE c obsolete : SANE d : ABSOLUTE, UNEQUIVOCAL <enjoys perfect happiness> e : of an extreme kind : UNMITIGATED
4 obsolete : MATURE
5 : of, relating to, or constituting a verb form or verbal that expresses an action or state completed at the time of speaking or at a time spoken of
6 obsolete a : CERTAIN, SURE b : CONTENTED, SATISFIED
7 of a musical interval : belonging to the consonances unison, fourth, fifth, and octave which retain their character when inverted and when raised or lowered by a half step become augmented or diminished
8 a : sexually mature and fully differentiated <a perfect insect> b : having both stamens and pistils in the same flower <a perfect flower>
- per·fect·ness /-fik(t)-n&s/ noun
synonyms PERFECT, WHOLE, ENTIRE, INTACT mean not lacking or faulty in any particular. PERFECT implies the soundness and the excellence of every part, element, or quality of a thing frequently as an unattainable or theoretical state. WHOLE suggests a completeness or perfection that can be sought, gained, or regained. ENTIRE implies perfection deriving from integrity, soundness, or completeness of a thing. INTACT implies retention of perfection of a thing in its natural or original state
Mt 5:48 - Show ContextBe ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Mt 19:21 - Show ContextJesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Lu 1:3 - Show ContextIt seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Lu 6:40 - Show ContextThe disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Joh 17:23 - Show ContextI in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Greek word perfect:
Strong's Number: 5046 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
tevleioß from (5056)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Teleios 8:67,1161
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
tel'-i-os Adjective
Definition
1. brought to its end, finished
2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3. perfect
4. that which is perfect
1. consummate human integrity and virtue
2. of men
1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature
1 Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
John 17:
22: And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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redkermit
Advanced Member
Member # 4059
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posted
With this poll, we are beginning with the following assumption:
Jesus was the only human to live a totally sinless life.
With that assumption in mind, the question is based on the totality of Jesus’ human existence from birth to crucifixion. Was He perfect?
Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 23 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Listen Online:
www.wmuz.com
www.997flr.org
Posts: 604 | From: Michigan | Registered: Nov 2004
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