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Topic: Divorce and Deaconship
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Titus
Advanced Member
Member # 4394
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posted
Finally someone with some sense has responded. There is forgiveness for the divorced man or woman, just as there is forgiveness for the one who uses God's name in vain, or calls his neighbor a fool. I know because I have been a recipient of His forgiveness. He has shown me mercy, not judgment, He has demonstrated His grace toward me, and you!
Titus
Posts: 27 | From: Indiana | Registered: Feb 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
This is something that bothers me BUT my first wife committed adultery. So according to the scripture, I can still be a deacon. I ve prayed about this and now have some peace. I think each person would be different and needs to be discussed with the pastor or other deacons.
Brad
I am so thankful you have gotten victory over this matter.
Notice that peace is a fruit of the Spirit when we allow the Holy Spirit to control our lives. We shouldn't let the enemy rob us of our inner peace by trying to wrap us up in confusion and guilt.
Gal. 5:22 But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.
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shadowmaker
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This is something that bothers me BUT my first wife committed adultery. So according to the scripture, I can still be a deacon. I ve prayed about this and now have some peace. I think each person would be different and needs to be discussed with the pastor or other deacons.
Brad
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
Dale: I have to jump in here. I know that this subject is one that you stand on with much personal sacrifice; it is difficult because there are some you love that are divorced and so to make such statements come from true conviction else it would be much more comfortable to take another stance.
But I have to say this: I have heard the arguments that one cannot repent of the the sin of divorce and remain divorced... much less remarried. But in examining this issue with much soul searching and crying out to God when I became convicted of the sin of my own choice to divorce and remarry, here is what I find.
I had to look at what my sin was... I can tell you that for me personally, my sin was not trusting God; not being a Godly wife in spite of an ungodly husband; and choosing to deal with a problem my way and not God's way; and being self centered... wanting what I wanted when I wanted it no matter who it hurt or what God thought and lastly but not least failure to renew my mind with the scripture that I might prove the perfect will of God. I was ignorant and in error of the scriptures. Those were the real sins that underlay the action of divorce. It is of these things that I have repented. These are the sins that I confessed when I confessed the sin of divorce. Today, in my marriage divorce is not an option. Because I have repented of the sins of the heart that lead to divorce. I cannot change the consequences that my children suffered, or that their father suffered or that my own marriage now has suffered because of divorce, but I have no doubt that I am forgiven for divorce. I have no doubt that God does see this marriage as covenant and that God has blessed it in spite of the fact that it began in the place of HIS permissive will rather than HIS perfect will. I know that God does and has honored the committment that my husband and I have. The evidence of that is undeniable in so many ways.
So, I have to say that I am not of the belief that one cannot repent of the sin of divorce while remaining divorced and even while being remarried. God has used my divorce to teach us committment, and we are probably a louder voice against divorce in our church than many who have been married for 50 years to the same person. We know first hand that divorce has consequence; we know first hand that divorce is not about what he did or she did, but it is about our heart's condition toward GOD!!!
Today, my husband and I have been used of God to teach that divorce is not ok. We have gone knocking on doors in our church family and my husband has spoken to a man who was separated from his wife and told him point blank that he needed to get right and I spoke with his wife to say, girlfirend, put away your hardness of heart and trust God! I have been there and done that and you do not want to walk down that road.I can tell you that I can say those words with 10 times the authority of a woman in my church who has not divorced, lived the consequences and repented! I know that when the rubber hits the road that it is not about what he did... it is about our own hearts regarding ourselves and God and how they respond to what he did!
Yes, divorce is a cancer. Divorce is not God's way period. But praise GOD because HE does work all things for good in those who are called according to HIS purpose and walk in the flesh and not the spirit and HE does this when you walk in the spirit, no matter how long it takes you to begin walking in the spirit.
We ought be teaching that divorce is sin; we ought teach that it is the condition of the heart against God that chooses divorce that is sin and we ought teach that you stay together come hell or high water and you do you part and God will do HIS marriage is a 3 poly cord! We ought be teaching these things before people get divorced. We ought be a church that stands behind couples and holds them accountible. We ought have elders in our churchs that are willing to go and knock on someone's door and and say "man what are you doing! Get right with God and your spouse!" But we cannot be teaching those that are already divorced that when a child of God repents of the heart condition that lead to divorce, God cannot and does not forgive, because HE can and HE does.
Having said all that, how would I respond to the original question? I would say it depends. Was the person a Christian when first married? If he was not then, the new creature in Christ that he is has only had one wife. If he was a Christian at the time he divorced and remarried 50 years ago, then I would probably lean to the no side of this and say that he is the husband of 2 wives. Of course then one died, and he is now the husband of one wife, so I would in that light say that he is free to be an elder provided that he is today of the mind that divorce is sin and not to be done in the church.
IMHO that is my 2 cents on the issue for what it is worth.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I ask in another tread...
What is repentance?
How does one repent?
If I say I repent can I continue doing the same thing?
If someone steals a watch from the local Wal-Mart, and later asks for forgiveness, that record has been totally wiped out. Nothing is showing in the Lamb's Book of Life that they even thought about stealing that watch.
In the same way, if a person gets a unwarranted divorce, that record is totally wiped out if the persons ask for forgiveness. Nothing is showing that there ever was a divorce.
Therefore, if that person has remarried and has a couple of children, they are legally bound to the new relationsip, according to the laws of the land. Nothing is showing on their heavenly record that they were ever married before.
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
What legalist said these words?
many I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
I am not saying all divorced people will go to hell. That is not my point.
There is a fatal mind set in the Church that everything goes.
Families and children are being destroyed by Satan at an unprecedented rate because the Church has quit teaching the Truth.
I feel your hurt and except for the Grace (grace meaning His keeping power) of Yahweh I could be in yours or someone else’s shoes.
But you don't correct a problem with wrong teaching.
We are in the time when people will not endure sound teaching.
Over 50% of all marriages in the Church end in divorce!
Divorce is a cancer in the Church, if anyone reading this doesn't see that I do really doubt you Faith in Yeshua.
I ask in another tread...
What is repentance?
How does one repent?
If I say I repent can I continue doing the same thing?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Titus:
consonant that follows the first vowel which means the passage REALLY reads "ALL" EXCEPT, those wicked and horrible unforgiven sinners known as divorcees.Titus
God forgive me for this nasty thought, but I am wondering if anyone has ever murdered someone so they wouldn't be committing a sin by divorcing. In that case they surely would have been forgiven. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Titus
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Yup, the legalists have spoken and their mind is made up. If you are divorced, you are doomed. You will not get to heaven period. God has spoken clearly that there is never forgiveness for divorce, and He even has a Baptist 'Doctor of Divinity' to help Him clear up the unfortunate misunderstanding about Christ's teaching that one can obtain a divorce as He clearly taught in Matt 19:8. Wow what would ever do without legalists telling us what God REALLY meant? I guess we could always follow the Holy Spirit's leading? Nah, we have the legalists to listen to so why listen the Holy Spirit, after all He may say something really controversial like, "I love you and I have removed ALL of your sins as far as the east is from the west, including the sin of divorce." OK I know ALL doesn't really mean 'ALL' because in this passage the present tense of the Greek verb when followed by a singular preposition of the noun that follows a question asked by Alex Trebec on Jeopardy means you must drop the second consonant that follows the first vowel which means the passage REALLY reads "ALL" EXCEPT, those wicked and horrible unforgiven sinners known as divorcees.
Titus
Posts: 27 | From: Indiana | Registered: Feb 2005
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WildB
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He cannot.
1 Timothy 3
[1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
[2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
[3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
[4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
[5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
[6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
[7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
[8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
[9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
[10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
[11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
[12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
[13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[14] These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
[15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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becauseHElives
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WHAT ABOUT MATTHEW 19:9-THE “EXCEPTION CLAUSE?”
“And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery”. [Matt: 19:9].
To fully appreciate the subject regarding “divorce and re-marriage” the above scripture must be studied and fully understood. There are a number of points we need to address. Most Christians, including theologians, agree that the book of Matthew was written “mainly” to/for the Jews. With this in mind we can expect to find some characteristics pertaining to Jewish customs. In studying this subject I am convinced the above scripture is one such example. Let us do some investigation.
In the gospel of Mark we read:
“And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery”. [Mark: 10:10-12].
In the gospel of Luke we read.
“Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery”. [Luke: 16:18].
On reading these scriptures in Mark and Luke we have no other choice but to conclude that, should a husband or wife put away/divorce their spouse and marry another, Jesus calls this adultery: period end of discussion. There are no exception clauses in these precious passages of scripture, and we need to recall that you can only commit adultery if you are married. We know that there are no mistakes or contradictions in the word of God, so why the exception clause in Matthew, that for many seems to contradict the scriptures in Mark and Luke.
Every good bible teacher will admit that the clear passages of scripture must be used to understand the not so clear passages. We have clearly seen in both the book of Mark and Luke what our Lord has to say regarding “putting away” and re-marrying, and that is; anyone engaging in this behaviour is committing adultery. So to clear this issue up, we go back to the fact Matthew was written mainly for a Jewish audience and begin to study the subject in greater detail.
In scripture we have illustrations whereby when a Jewish couple were espoused/betrothed [that is engaged to be married] they were referred to as husband and wife. The perfect example of this is in the book of Matthew with the case of Joseph and Mary. We read:
“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily”. [Matthew 1: 19-20].
From these verses of scripture we learn how the “except it be for fornication” clause neatly fits into place. When we read of Mary being espoused, it speaks of Mary being bound or betrothed to Joseph, even though they were not yet actually married. In Jewish custom, when a couple were betrothed they were expected to continue that relationship resulting in Marriage. They were called husband and wife as seen by the above scripture referring to Joseph as Mary’s husband even thou they were not yet married. In 1Corinthians 7:25-28 we read the following:
“Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. I suppose therefore this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be. Art thou bound unto a wife? Seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. But and if thou marry, thou has not sinned: and if a virgin marry she has not sinned. Nevertheless such will have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you”.
Once again we have the yet unmarried men and virgins, being seen as husband and wife. This betrothal period was to be taken very seriously, so seriously in fact, to break it, one had to get a divorce to be loosed from the situation, even thou they were NOT married. I trust you are now beginning to see the relevance of the “exception” clause, but let’s continue.
We have many bible translations, and translators will occasionally use different words to interpret the Greek. Our passage of scripture in Matthew 19:9 is one such example. In reading from various bibles we have the following words being used for the Greek word porneia. [fornication, sexual immorality, adultery, illicit sex, marital unfaithfulness, unchastity]. However which best fits the context and situation, as porneia is both used in a narrow sense and a broad sense through out scripture. I am persuaded fornication is the best. Using the example of Joseph and Mary we understand that Joseph thought Mary had broken their espousal/betrothal contract. Hence he thought she had committed fornication [had sex while not married], giving Joseph the right to divorce/ put her away privily. If this had been the case, he could have divorced her and found himself another bride to be, as they were not yet married.
This is why we have the “exception” clause in Matthew. It applies to the betrothal/espousal period only. This is why the disciples answered: “If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry”. They knew that Jesus was saying to them, that once married, you were married for life. It turned the focus back to the scriptures, these scriptures plainly stated that, Yahweh made man and woman, and a man was to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, whereby the “mystical” union of marriage took place making them one flesh in the eyes of Yahweh. No more two, but one flesh, and with this came a declaration: “What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder”.
With this in mind we have no confusion as regards the words of Jesus in Mark and Luke. In fact Jesus could say nothing else when challenged with this subject other than: “Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery”.
We are told in Genesis that marriage makes the two one, no more two but one. Yahweh has total authority over marriage, not man or the State, and only Yahweh can dissolve this union if He so pleases. Make no mistake; marriage is till death do us part; any efforts to distort or change this treasured truth should be challenged and rebuked. Jesus said in Matthew 5:37: “But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil”.
We would do well to adhere to the scriptures whenever preaching or teaching the word of Yahweh, as only the Word can change evil hearts, resulting in repentance and the salvation of souls.
Friends let us not be guilty of changing the words of the Christ. Let us be faithful servants of Yahweh, teaching others to be faithful to the scriptures and not looking for ways to tickle the itching ears of man. I understand compassion must be shown when dealing with this subject; however we Christians must submit to the ways and commandments of our Lord and saviour as they are perfect in every aspect.
We must stand strong on the word of the living God, trust that He knows what is needed in our lives, give Him the chance to heal broken hearts, allow Him to bring people to repentance. Yahweh will judge all deeds correctly and fairly in His time; let us not fall into the snare of trying to do that which only Yahweh has the right to do.
In summary, we have no exception clauses in the book of Matthew, nothing that gives a license from Yahweh for a married couple to divorce and re-marry. We see once again the wonderful harmony of Yahweh’s precious word, no contradictions, no confusion and if confusion appears to be in the word of Yahweh, rest assured that confusion totally rests with us.
May our Lord continue to bestow His amazing grace and mercy on us, and may we praise Him in word and action worshipping Him in spirit and truth.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Christ's answer to the Pharisees was two-fold: marriage was for life and divorce was only for the betrothal period (cf. Lk. 16:18). The Bible allows for divorce only before physical consummation and not after physical consummation (i.e., not after marriage).
Luke 16:18Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
It distinctly says 'wife'/'husband', nothing about being bethroned.??.
quote:
Also the Scripture say nothing at all about a woman divorcing a husband
Common sense would tell you that it works both ways, as in I Cor. 7: 15.
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becauseHElives
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The Bible, Marriage, and Divorce
by Thomas M. Strouse, Prof. of Theology
717 N. Whitehurst Landing Road, Virginia Beach, Virginia 23464
Introduction
The major social unit of society, the family, is being devastated by social aberrations such as divorce. God has a clear plan for families as set forth in the Bible. For the American society to be strengthened, Christians need to know and need to obey the Bible teaching with regard to marriage and divorce. This essay will show what the Bible says about marriage, what Christ says about divorce and what Paul says about divorce and remarriage.
The Bible and Marriage
God instituted marriage with the first man and woman, Adam and Eve (Gen. 2:20-24). The Bible formula for marriage is "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh" (v.24). There are three factors delineated for a marriage union. The "leaving" delineates the social factor, the "cleaving" delineates the spiritual factor, and the "weaving" delineates the sexual factor. All three factors are necessary to constitute a Biblical marriage. The social factor involves a public awareness that the couple is married. This awareness is usually conveyed by a public ceremony or document. The spiritual factor involves a unity of mind and heart on the major matters of life. The sexual factor involves an intimate relationship which is monogamous and permanent. These factors are foundational and prerequisite for strong family units for any society. It is true that some Bible characters violated God's plan for marriage and were polygamous, but God's plan is nevertheless binding for all who desire the Lord's blessing for strong families. In the New Testament, Christ reaffirmed this marriage formula for His audience (Mt. 19:4-6).
Christ and Divorce
When questioned by the major religious leaders of His day concerning the popular plan for divorce, the Lord Jesus Christ reaffirmed the Bible plan for marriage by citing Gen. 2:24 (Mt. 19:4-6; Mk. 10:11, 12; Lk. 16:18). The Pharisees attempted to force Christ to choose between the two popular plans for divorce, the Hillel position which was very liberal (divorce for anything) and Shammai position which was very conservative (divorce for infidelity). Christ did not concede to either position, but rather He cited the teaching given to Adam and Eve and declared "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder" (literally this verse means "stop severing what God has permanently put together") in Mt. 19:16. Furthermore, the Lord said "Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery" (Mt. 19:9).
This verse has already been interpreted by Matthew in his first chapter of the Gospel of Matthew (Mt. 1:18-25). The Jews had the custom of betrothal for approximately one year before the wedding. This meant that the Jewish man and woman entered into a betrothal covenant (Mal. 2:14) which could only be broken by divorce for unfaithfulness. The classic example of this is Joseph and Mary; Joseph thought Mary had committed fornication and had become pregnant and consequently he was going to divorce her ("put her away privily") during the betrothal period and before Joseph and Mary had become married through physical consummation. Although Joseph and Mary knew by divine revelation that Jesus was the virgin born Son of God, the Lord Jesus lived with the stigma of being a child of fornication (Jn. 8:41).
Christ's answer to the Pharisees was two-fold: marriage was for life and divorce was only for the betrothal period (cf. Lk. 16:18). The Bible allows for divorce only before physical consummation and not after physical consummation (i.e., not after marriage).
Paul and Divorce and Remarriage
The Corinthian church wrote the Apostle Paul about some questions they had about the married state. Paul's answers include what Christ said about marriage and additional apostolic teaching as well (I Cor. 7:1-40). Paul's clearest statement is "but and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife" (v. 11). In this context, the Apostle allows for temporary separation and no remarriage. Furthermore, the goal of all marital conflicts is reconciliation, and divorce is never an option for Christians. Paul makes it clear that remarriage is only possible when the marriage union is dissolved by death: "The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth: but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord" (v.40).
Some misunderstand Paul, thinking that he is allowing for divorce when he states "art thou loosed from a wife" (v. 28). The "loosed" is a perfect verb and refers to the permanent state of bachelorhood. All Paul is stating is that in a time of persecution ("present distress," v.26) bachelors should remain unmarried.
Conclusion
The Bible is God's guide for mankind in general and especially for Christians. The Bible teaches that marriage is permanent and monogamous. The Bible teaches that divorce is only for the betrothal period prior to physical consummation. The Bible teaches that reconciliation, not divorce is the solution to marital difficulties, and that remarriage is only allowable when the marriage union has been broken by death. May Christians and mankind follow the Bible's guidance for strong family units by realizing marriage is for life and that the Lord God of Israel hates divorce (Mal. 2:16).
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Also the Scripture say nothing at all about a woman divorcing a husband
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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I came across this scripture!! Looks that this means that there is always forgiveness, not only for murder, but even for a wrongful divorce?( BTW, as the scriptures say above - all divorces aren't wrongful.}
Jeremiah 3:11-15
The LORD said to me, "Faithless Israel is more righteous than unfaithful Judah. Go, proclaim this message toward the north: " 'Return, faithless Israel,' declares the LORD, 'I will frown on you no longer, for I am merciful,' declares the LORD, 'I will not be angry forever.
Only acknowledge your guilt— you have rebelled against the LORD your God, you have scattered your favors to foreign gods under every spreading tree, and have not obeyed me,' " declares the LORD. "Return, faithless people," declares the LORD, "for I am your husband. I will choose you—one from a town and two from a clan—and bring you to Zion. Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will lead you with knowledge and understanding.
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HisGrace
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Jeremiah 3:6-8 During the reign of King Josiah, the LORD said to me, "Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it.
I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.
Matthew 19:7-9"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
I Cor. 7:15 But if the husband or wife who isn't a Christian insists on leaving, let them go. In such cases the Christian husband or wife is not required to stay with them, for God wants his children to live in peace.
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becauseHElives
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Divorce
It is a reproach on the Name and Character of the Lord Jesus Christ and a distortion of the greatest type and shadow in Scripture.
Christ and His Bride
Moses distorted a type and shadow and was not allowed into the promise land when he struck the rock when he had been told to speak to the rock.
Obedience is better than sacrifice
The so called Church needs to learn Yahweh God means what he says!
I don’t think it’s wrong to be a deacon and divorced, I know it’s wrong, it’s against the very nature of Yahweh
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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dondi
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What do you think of a man becoming a deacon if he has had a divorce in his past?
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Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and sup with him, and him with Me. Rev. 3:20
Posts: 33 | From: Ceres,Ca | Registered: Aug 2005
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