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Author
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Topic: How many agree with this statement?
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corriee
Advanced Member
Member # 6705
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posted
I agree with you. There was a time in my life when I was backslidden and not really serving
my Lord. I went to Church and did that, but in
my heart I was into life, children, home, that
sort of thing. However, a good thirty years later, we met up with some of the people we lived by back then. Both these men said they were
saved (much later)one by something I had said, and one told me I had not been the witness I should have been. This is puzzling to me, but it
shows me that when one is saved, it shows even if
not on purpose by me. I was a witness by going to church, inviting the neighbor kids to go with me, my life was still involved in the outward things. Does this make sense? I hope it says what I am trying to. If you are saved, your life is different even if you are not fully aware of it. God has shown so much mercy to me, I have been where I should not be and He always brought me back. I thank God today that He has kept me. He gave me a husband that has kept me in Christ also. I am a follower type person, and I would have wandered far far away but for His love and grace. I am too old to wander now...lol...so I just praise the Lord for the my journey so far.
Posts: 53 | From: Close to the heart of Texas | Registered: Aug 2007
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Dave B.
Advanced Member
Member # 6710
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posted
Hello everyone,
The big question we must begin with is, what is salvation? The Bible teaches salvation is the action of God the Holy Spirit upon the soul of a sinner. This action occurs while the sinner is still "dead in trespasses and sins".
The evidence of salvation according to the Bible is 1. a transformed life 2. the witness of the spirit with our spirit that we are children of God.
A transformed life is evidence, because in salvation, the sinner has been given a new nature by God. That's why Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again. The new nature evidences itself in a transformed life through repentance, love, a desire to do the will of God, and confession of sin when we don't (and we all stumble in mnay ways).
Thus, a person who claims to have been born again, and who does not exhibit the transformed life, is not bearing fruit, is simply not a Christian. One can say "I have accepted Christ", but the Bible never gives the performance of the act of acceptance, no matter how sincere, as evidence they have been converted. Conversion requires an act of God and is permannent, transforming and evident. As an example, compare the reactions of King Saul with King David when each of them was confronted with sin.
Let us examine our lives and if there is no fruit, let us not rest on some religious act we may have performed. Let us look to Jesus and live.
Hope this helps,
Dave B.
Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007
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JLand
Community Member
Member # 6707
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posted
I think that God looks at each heart individually because everyones gifts are different, and everyone provides a different service to him, I highly doubt that someone would be truly saved and live their entire life no matter how many years and never again feel the call of the Lord, unless they accepted Jesus on their deathbed and were sincere. I believe its possible that God may have one key moment or one work that he may want us to perform, only he knows what that is and the time it will happen, I personally live for the moment that he calls me to serve him in the way that I can, and I know when that day comes I'll have no doubts and no fears, until then I do my best to live my life in a way that pleases him, I fail him in so many ways, but I think he knows what my heart desires, and as I grow as a christian I'l get there someday. Anyways I hope my personal feelings shed some light on the debate here.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Aug 2007
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corriee
Advanced Member
Member # 6705
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posted
I voted yes because the choice was a saved person. I believe if you are saved you will
go to heaven. The rest of the sentence made
it a trick question for me, but I answered
based on the first part, that he was saved.
Posts: 53 | From: Close to the heart of Texas | Registered: Aug 2007
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silas lane
Community Member
Member # 6626
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posted
Matt. 13:28,29,30,...The servants said, do you want us to go and gather them? 29,But He said, No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30,let them both grow together until the harvest... God alone knows each persons heart. He asks His children to love and care for all in this field we call the world. As a true child in Jesus Christ, God will always love and care for us. In Him we are free to care for others, especially the weaker. If we see a man wearing nothing but cowboy clothes daily because he likes being a cowboy, and if we ask him if he has ever rode a horse or roped a cow and he replied no. Would it be better to teach him to ride and rope that he may know the full joy of being a cowboy. Or allow him to continue in his way to no avail. Time in this old world gets shorter. Yet there is still time for us to tend to the souls of others before the harvest. Our blessed Lord Jesus will tend to the hearts.
Posts: 10 | From: texas | Registered: Jun 2007
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IAAFOTL
Advanced Member
Member # 6414
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posted
Well, not alone, but we decide and the Holy Spirit empowers us to transform as we renew our minds with the Word of God, but overall I understand and agree that we are not robots, we do have a part, God has done His part, and we have to align ourselves with His plan and do what is expected of us in order for the plan to come into fruition for us as individuals. God's plan in itself is complete, but if we do not partake as He has required, we then change the plan to suit ourselves and in essence create a new salvation plan for ourselves which in the end is not going to work.
I can have a nice cut of steak and a brand new barbecue, I can have all brand new utensils and some great bbq sauce, and a new propane tank freshly filled with propane. But if I never turn on the grill, I don't prepare the meat, and I don't put it on the grill, guess what? I am not going to eat that steak!
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, helpforhomeschoolers. You said:
”It is GOD alone who determines how long we have on this earth and consequently how much we will be transformed IN THIS LIFE into the image of the SON. “
Eden here:
The thief on the cross did not have time to read the Word and to listen much to the Holy Spirit, but because the Lord knew that the thief only had a few moments left, God saved the thief just on the basis of accepting Jesus as the Son of God and as Jesus dying for the thief’s sins.
The thief did not have time to read the Word, but what happens when a man or woman DOES HAVE THE TIME? For instance, a man accepts salvation and then lives 30 more years after accepting salvation. Will God JUDGE SUCH A MAN THE SAME AS THE THIEF, or not?
Or, will God say, “look, man or woman, you had PLENTY of years to PROVE your faith in Me, and YOU DID NOTHING. Therefore I consider you EQUAL TO AN UNBELIEVER.”
To repeat what helpforhomeschoolers said:
”It is GOD alone who determines how long we have on this earth and consequently how much we will be transformed IN THIS LIFE into the image of the SON.“
No, it is man or woman alone who can transform themselves into the image of God. It is NOT God alone anymore. It is now "man alone and woman alone" who can decide to be transformed IN THIS LIFE.
God already FINISHED His part: We have the Word of God, both the Old Testament and the New Testament (to make it easier), and God now has completely done HIS part.
The ENTIRE rest part is now up to the individual men and women whether they read the Word of God or whether they start to listen to the Holy Spirit to which they have now access. IT IS NO LONGER UP TO GOD AT ALL at this point.
helpforhomeschoolers said:
”It is GOD alone who determines how long we have on this earth and consequently how much we will be transformed IN THIS LIFE into the image of the SON.“
I think it is up to us instead.
With love, Eden
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Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
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Posts: 64 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2007
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IAAFOTL
Advanced Member
Member # 6414
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posted
So, the Bible has no references to backsliders, or those who have tasted of the heavenly gift (salvation) and the good Word of God and made partakers of the Holy Ghost who now have fallen away, and trample the Son of God under their feet and for which there is no way to redeem them again because they crucify for themselves, the Son of God afresh?
Why would Jesus even make mention of the need to remain in Him abiding in the vine, if it was a given, an autopilot of sorts?
Why the warning of being cut off and thrown into the fire?
You can't be cut off from something you were never a part of in the first place, can you?
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
and the rest of his life never picks up his Bible....and just continues his life unchanged He will get into Heaven....He will smell like smoke for all his works will burn up before the Lord...nevertheless...He will be there.
Wow, this thread is still alive and well. I tried to say this before and I don't know if I will have any better words this time but here goes:
If a man comes to Christ and IS Saved, there will be a change- that change may or may not be visible to us. BUT we can be sure that a change has occured- namely that his sins are forgiven and HIS slate wiped clean and the BLOOD oF Christ is accepted by GOD a propitiation for the man's sin and the man is born again- a NEW creature in Christ.
The remainder of said man's life may well be the next 5 minutes and in that time he may not pick up a Bible nor exhibit any change that the world or the Christians in the world can see- but like the thief on the cross - a change has occurred.
It is GOD alone who determines how long we have on this earth and consequently how much we will be transformed IN THIS LIFE into the image of the SON. (which is an image of a man IN the flesh- yet not OF the Flesh- a man who not only did not sin, but had no sin) and FOLKS- that part- the "have no sin" part will only come to us- come for us when this body of flesh is shed and returns to the earth.
It is so easy for us to look at another and see the sins that other does and think that we can know his salvation and we cannot not- because we cannot know what sin he does not do because Christ is in him and is changing him from glory to glory into the image of HIMSELF. God determines when we leave this earth and thus to what degree we are transformed at that moment of last breath as the work of transformation is that of the HOLY spirit and not of our flesh.
It is impossible that a man is saved and not changed- change occurs at the moment of our rebirth- if we are granted continuing days after that rebirth- changes continue to occur as we learn to walk in the word- learn to crucify the deeds of our flesh- learn to walk in the spirit and not the flesh- but this is a process that is part of the work of our Salvation. It is the work of Christ in us as we journey through this world. The new creature is a creature who HAS flesh and thus SIN in the flesh- but is a creature that is OF the spirit and NO more OF the flesh- though he is still for the time being still having flesh.
You cannot be saved and not also be abiding in the vine-its is the sap- the life of the christian is Christ is THE VINE. Without THE VINE there is no life period- we are alive only because Christ lives in us. The passing from death to life occurs IN THIS LIFE. It occurs while we are still sinners. The one who sees heaven in the end is the one who IN THIS LIFE gives his life and puts on the life that is CHRIST. The Christian who is saved and will see heaven does not die at the death of the body of sin and death- he is already dead before that- he died with Christ on the cross and realized it at his re-birth.
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Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
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My screen name stands for "I am a Friend of The Lord's"
Posts: 64 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hi, helpforhomeschoolers. You said:
”It is GOD alone who determines how long we have on this earth and consequently how much we will be transformed IN THIS LIFE into the image of the SON. “
Eden here:
The thief on the cross did not have time to read the Word and to listen much to the Holy Spirit, but because the Lord knew that the thief only had a few moments left, God saved the thief just on the basis of accepting Jesus as the Son of God and as Jesus dying for the thief’s sins.
The thief did not have time to read the Word, but what happens when a man or woman DOES HAVE THE TIME? For instance, a man accepts salvation and then lives 30 more years after accepting salvation. Will God JUDGE SUCH A MAN THE SAME AS THE THIEF, or not?
Or, will God say, “look, man or woman, you had PLENTY of years to PROVE your faith in Me, and YOU DID NOTHING. Therefore I consider you EQUAL TO AN UNBELIEVER.”
To repeat what helpforhomeschoolers said:
”It is GOD alone who determines how long we have on this earth and consequently how much we will be transformed IN THIS LIFE into the image of the SON.“
No, it is man or woman alone who can transform themselves into the image of God. It is NOT God alone anymore. It is now "man alone and woman alone" who can decide to be transformed IN THIS LIFE.
God already FINISHED His part: We have the Word of God, both the Old Testament and the New Testament (to make it easier), and God now has completely done HIS part.
The ENTIRE rest part is now up to the individual men and women whether they read the Word of God or whether they start to listen to the Holy Spirit to which they have now access. IT IS NO LONGER UP TO GOD AT ALL at this point.
helpforhomeschoolers said:
”It is GOD alone who determines how long we have on this earth and consequently how much we will be transformed IN THIS LIFE into the image of the SON.“
I think it is up to us instead.
With love, Eden
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
quote:
and the rest of his life never picks up his Bible....and just continues his life unchanged He will get into Heaven....He will smell like smoke for all his works will burn up before the Lord...nevertheless...He will be there.
Wow, this thread is still alive and well. I tried to say this before and I don't know if I will have any better words this time but here goes:
If a man comes to Christ and IS Saved, there will be a change- that change may or may not be visible to us. BUT we can be sure that a change has occured- namely that his sins are forgiven and HIS slate wiped clean and the BLOOD oF Christ is accepted by GOD a propitiation for the man's sin and the man is born again- a NEW creature in Christ.
The remainder of said man's life may well be the next 5 minutes and in that time he may not pick up a Bible nor exhibit any change that the world or the Christians in the world can see- but like the thief on the cross - a change has occurred.
It is GOD alone who determines how long we have on this earth and consequently how much we will be transformed IN THIS LIFE into the image of the SON. (which is an image of a man IN the flesh- yet not OF the Flesh- a man who not only did not sin, but had no sin) and FOLKS- that part- the "have no sin" part will only come to us- come for us when this body of flesh is shed and returns to the earth.
It is so easy for us to look at another and see the sins that other does and think that we can know his salvation and we cannot not- because we cannot know what sin he does not do because Christ is in him and is changing him from glory to glory into the image of HIMSELF. God determines when we leave this earth and thus to what degree we are transformed at that moment of last breath as the work of transformation is that of the HOLY spirit and not of our flesh.
It is impossible that a man is saved and not changed- change occurs at the moment of our rebirth- if we are granted continuing days after that rebirth- changes continue to occur as we learn to walk in the word- learn to crucify the deeds of our flesh- learn to walk in the spirit and not the flesh- but this is a process that is part of the work of our Salvation. It is the work of Christ in us as we journey through this world. The new creature is a creature who HAS flesh and thus SIN in the flesh- but is a creature that is OF the spirit and NO more OF the flesh- though he is still for the time being still having flesh.
You cannot be saved and not also be abiding in the vine-its is the sap- the life of the christian is Christ is THE VINE. Without THE VINE there is no life period- we are alive only because Christ lives in us. The passing from death to life occurs IN THIS LIFE. It occurs while we are still sinners. The one who sees heaven in the end is the one who IN THIS LIFE gives his life and puts on the life that is CHRIST. The Christian who is saved and will see heaven does not die at the death of the body of sin and death- he is already dead before that- he died with Christ on the cross and realized it at his re-birth.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Amen...
quote:
But that only means that at that point, every sin we have ever committed has been washed away and we stand clean. But we are required to abide in the vine thereafter, grow and produce fruit, and by the power of the Holy Spirit walk in our newfound freedom, no longer bondslaves to sin.
If we do not abide in the vine, we will die, as the branch cannot bear fruit unless it abides in the vine and so if it does not bear fruit because it did not abide in the vine, the vinedresser will cut the branch off and cast into the fire.
I wish all could grasp this thought.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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IAAFOTL
Advanced Member
Member # 6414
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posted
But that only means that at that point, every sin we have ever committed has been washed away and we stand clean. But we are required to abide in the vine thereafter, grow and produce fruit, and by the power of the Holy Spirit walk in our newfound freedom, no longer bondslaves to sin.
If we do not abide in the vine, we will die, as the branch cannot bear fruit unless it abides in the vine and so if it does not bear fruit because it did not abide in the vine, the vinedresser will cut the branch off and cast into the fire.
John 15:1-6
quote:
Originally posted by JackHowell:
If you are saved, there is going to be a change! Paul pointed this out when he stated that the person becomes a new creation in Christ, and that the old things have passed away, and all things have become new. If there's been no change, I'd say the person has not been born from above.
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Study to show yourself approved, a workman unto God who needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
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My screen name stands for "I am a Friend of The Lord's"
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JackHowell
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Member # 6507
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posted
If you are saved, there is going to be a change! Paul pointed this out when he stated that the person becomes a new creation in Christ, and that the old things have passed away, and all things have become new. If there's been no change, I'd say the person has not been born from above.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Apr 2007
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Kristy2007
Community Member
Member # 6488
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posted
If the Holy Spirit is working in you and through you there will be a change.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. - 2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
Posts: 20 | Registered: Apr 2007
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by InHisService:
To a follower of Christ this poll would seem to be non-essential, but 35% voted that the 'saved' person whose life remained unchanged would still get to Heaven. That is alarming!
Yes I totally agree with you. There are many, many people that are lost in Church and they don't even know it.
www.lostinchurch.com
.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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InHisService
New Member
Member # 6477
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posted
To a follower of Christ this poll would seem to be non-essential, but 35% voted that the 'saved' person whose life remained unchanged would still get to Heaven. That is alarming! I like to point to this scripture in John 10: 27-29. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. A follower of Christ is praying reading and meditating on God's Word and congregating for worship with other believers. In these ways one is able to hear Christ's voice and stay in His hand. His voice will guide us thru the many troubles of life and when we fall by the wayside, He will instruct us on how to get back on the road to Heaven. A good question to ask is: "are you in Christ's hand?"
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Jesus: the Way,the Truth,the Life
Posts: 4 | From: Maynardville, TN | Registered: Apr 2007
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frater_nothing
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by frater_nothing:
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
Lars7 If anyone comes to Christ and is saved....and the rest of his life never picks up his Bible....and just continues his life unchanged He will get into Heaven....He will smell like smoke for all his works will burn up before the Lord...nevertheless...He will be there.
1. How long is the rest of his life? .50 miliseconds? 50 years? 500 years?
2. It is impossible to see the Kurios without Sanctification (the process of being purified and made Holistic in reality, not simply theory)
3. You need to ask Xristos, your Judge.
--Fra N.
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frater_nothing
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
Lars7 If anyone comes to Christ and is saved....and the rest of his life never picks up his Bible....and just continues his life unchanged He will get into Heaven....He will smell like smoke for all his works will burn up before the Lord...nevertheless...He will be there.
1. How long is the rest of his life? .50 miliseconds? 50 years? 500 years?
2. It is impossible to see the Kurios without Sanctification (the process of being purified and made Holistic in reality, not simply theory)
--Fra N.
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artm
Advanced Member
Member # 6243
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posted
Hi, It is " Impossible " to truly be saved and not change.
A songwriter said, " O,What a difference since Jesus came in."
To the one with the injured nephew,Even in that situation there will be a change. When we are truly Born Again, Even our thinking changes,Our talk changes, Our attitude changes.
Someone once said to me, " Salvation sure has changed since I was saved "
I said to him, " No, Genuine Salvation has not changed, People have changed,Standards have changed, But Christ and His Salvation have not changed."
2:Corinthians 5:17 declares, " Therefore if any man be in Christ, He is a new Creature,Old things are passed away,Behold,All things are become new."
We will not change completly over night,But there will be enough of a change to know that something has happened on the inside,That something is," Jesus came into my heart."
That is not judging,That is a Biblical truth.
there will be area's that still need to be changed,There we ought to pray and seek God for victory,And Brothers and Sisters in Christ ought to pray for our victory also,Not condemn.
God bless you all.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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cbou4668
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Member # 6280
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posted
Think of it like a riddle. The key statement is "If a man comes to Christ and is saved...". AND IS SAVED! Praise the Lord.
Posts: 99 | From: Rockledge, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Carmela ,
I apologies for being so long about answering,
I am sorry to hear about your nephew’s accident, but if there has been no change in his life, what do you base his Salvation.
The Scriptures declare when you become a “New Creature” in Yeshua, old things pass away, behold all thing become new. The things I once hated (the Gospel and the things of Yahweh) I now love. The things I once loved (the world and all its pleasures) I now hate.
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Jam 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
1Cr 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
Carmela & Joyce
I know you don’t like me, that is fine, I am not looking for popularity.
The flames of Hell are real and people have enough panty waist, user friendly preachers telling them what they want to hear, the truth is Godly fear is absent from the lives and preaching of our day.
The scriptures tells us to warn the wicked and the righteous to flee from the wickedness.
Ezek 33: 1-33.….
If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;…..
…Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. ….
…When I say unto the wicked, O wicked [man], thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand….
…Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul….
….When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. ….
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Pleasemaranatha
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Member # 5150
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posted
Carmela,
I agree with you and what you said made my spirit leap for joy.
When we point a finger at christians judging them to say which side of the fence they are on or whether they are hot or lukewarm 3 fingers point back to us.
I believe that jugement is God's. Not ours. He sees down the road who ends up in heaven.
Sure the on-fire Christian today are hot. Down the road trials could make them slip into being lukewarm.
I think I am soooooooooooo glad God is making the final decisions of all of us. We just have to encourage everyone to keep going on and run the race as best they can with His help towards the finish line.
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
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Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
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posted
I decided to add a story here.
I had joined a church for the very first time, the first church I ever attended, and a year later I became a youth leader. I was in my early 20's and I wondered why the youth pastor would allow me to be a leader when some of the youth were more spiritually mature then I was. At the same time, God still used me to minister love and understanding and acceptance into these teen's lives.
I felt as if the youth pastor took me under his wings and even though I didn't have a lot to offer the kids spiritually, the pastor never put me down or criticized me. I started to gain more confidence through this and I started to grow in my Christian walk. I knew that it didn't matter whether I was at the top of the spiritual ladder or the bottom, I still had something to offer. The pastor would always talk to me in private, his office had windows for accountability though, and during that time he encouraged me, showed me areas I needed to change, showed me love and acceptance, and created an atmosphere where I could spread my wings and learn to fly.
The same is true here. If we can lift each other up and encourage them, they will be more apt to grow. If we shoot each other down, it hinders growth.
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www.pinecrest.org
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Carmela
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Member # 4817
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posted
I certainly think there would be a change in a person but I also think it's wrong to publically chasen someone without first going to them and asking them to clarify. I mean, if someone were a new Christian and still growing, do you think Jesus would have publically humiliated them? I don't. I think this is something that should have been discussed with the person. Jesus did a one on one work, not public humiliation.
My nephew is a quad and also suffered a head injury so he was left paralyzed and with a brain injury. I took care of him and had some people from my church come in and do a bible study with him. He became a Christian but I didn't see a change in him. Does that mean he isn't saved by your standards?
I'm so thankful that I serve a kind, loving, compassionate, caring God that met the woman at the well when she was alone and not when she was in the streets in town. Jesus knew she would be there alone.
I thank God I serve a God who knows I'm not perfect and He still loves me, forgives me, uses me, corrects me in private and directs my path in the way I should go instead of hanging me before the people.
I am thankful that I serve a God that doesn't judge me by the same harsh standards I see used in this forum sometimes. I thank Him for His love, Grace, AND MERCY that I sometimes don't deserve yet He still offers it to me when I fall or when I'm walking in the wrong direction.
Instead, He leads me beside the still waters and restoreth my soul.
I disagree with the poster more than I disagree with the post and that isn't an option on the poll.
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www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
"Let no man beguile you of your reward."
-- Colossians 2:18
by C.H. SPURGEON,
June 16th, 1870
THERE is an allusion here to the prize which was offered to the runners in the Olympic games, and at the outset it is well for us to remark how very frequently the Apostle Paul conducts us by his metaphors to the racecourse. Over and over again he is telling us so to run that we may obtain, bidding us to strive, and at other times to agonize, and speaking of wrestling and contending. Ought not this to make us feel what an intense thing the Christian life is--not a thing of sleepiness or haphazard, not a thing to be left now and then to a little superficial consideration? It must be a matter which demands all our strength, so that when we are saved there is a living principle put within us which demands all our energies, and gives us energy over and above any that we ever had before. Those who dream that carelessness will find its way to heaven have made a great mistake. The way to hell is neglect, but the way to heaven is very different. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?" A little matter of neglect brings you to ruin, but our Master's words are "Strive to enter in at the straight gate, for many, I say unto you, shall seek"--merely seek--"to enter in, and shall not be able." Striving is wanted more than seeking. Let us pray that God the Holy Spirit would always enable us to be in downright, awful earnest about the salvation of our souls. May we never count this a matter of secondary importance, but may we seek first, and beyond everything else, the kingdom of God and his righteousness. May we lay hold on eternal life; may we so run that we may obtain.
I would press this upon your memories because I do observe, observe it in myself as well as in my fellow-Christians, that we are often more earnest about the things of this life than we are about the things of the life to come. We are all impressed with the fact that in these days of competition, if a man would not be run over and crushed beneath the wheels of the Juggernaut of poverty, he must exert himself. No man seems now able to keep his head above water with the faint-swimmer strokes which our forefathers used to give. We have to strive, and the bread that perisheth hath to be laboured for. Shall it be that this poor world shall engross our earliest thoughts and our latest cares, and shall the world to come have only now and then a consideration? No; may we love our God with all our heart, and all our soul, and all our strength, and may we lay our body, soul, and spirit upon the altar of Christ's service, for these are but our reasonable sacrifice to him.
Now the Apostle in the text before us gives us a warning, which comes to the same thing, however it is interpreted; but the passage is somewhat difficult of rendering, and there have been several meanings given to it. Out of these there are three meanings which have been given of the text before us which are worthy of notice. "Let no man beguile you of your reward." The Apostle, in the first place, may mean here:--
I. LET NO MAN BEGUILE ANY OF YOU who profess to be followers of Christ of the great reward that will await the faithful at the last.
Now, my brethren, we have, many of us, commenced the Christian race, or we profess to have done so, but the number of the starters is far greater than the number of the winners. "They that run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize." "Many are called, but few are chosen." Many commence, apparently, in the Christian career, but after a while, though they did run well, something hinders them that they do not obey the truth, and they go out from us because they were not of us, for if they had been of us, doubtless they would have continued with us. Now we may expect, now that we have commenced to run, that some will come and try to turn us out of the race course openly--not plausibly and with sophistry, but with an open and honest wickedness. Some will tell us plainly that there is no reward to run for, that our religion is all a mistake, that the pleasures of this world are the only things worth seeking, that there are delights of the flesh and the lusts thereof, and that we should do well to enjoy them. We shall meet the Atheist with his sneer and with his ringing laugh. We shall meet with all kinds of persons who will to our faces tell us to turn back, for there is no heaven, there is no Christ, or, if there be, it is not worth our while to take so much trouble to find him. Take heed of these people. Meet them face to face with dauntless courage. Mind not their sneers. If they persecute you only, reckon this to be an honour to you, for what is persecution but the tribute which wickedness pays to righteousness, and what is it, indeed, but the recognition of the seed of the woman when the seed of the serpent would fain bite his heel?
But the Apostle does not warn you so much against those people who openly come to you in this way. He knows that you will be on the alert against them. He gives a special warning against some others who would beguile you; that is to say, who will try to turn you out of the right road, but who will not tell you that they mean to do so. They pretend that they are going to show you something that you knew not before, some improvement upon what you have hitherto learned. In Paul's day there were some who took off the attention of the Christian from the worship of God to the worship of angels. "Angels," said they, "these are holy beings; they keep watch over you; you should speak of them with great respect"; and then when they grew bolder, they said, "You should ask their protection"; and then after a little while they said, "You should worship them; you should make them intermediate intercessors"; and so, step by step, they went on and established an old heresy which lasted for many years in the Christian church, and which is not dead even now, and thus the worship of angels crept in.
And nowadays you will meet with men who will say, "That bread upon the Table--why, it represents the body of Jesus Christ to you when you come to the Lord's Supper; therefore, you ought to treat that bread with great respect." By and bye they will get a little bolder, and then they say, "As it represents Christ, you may worship it, pay it respect as if it were Christ." By and bye it will come to this, that you must have a napkin under your chin, lest you should drop a crumb; or it will be very wicked if a drop of the sacred wine should cling to your moustache when you drink; and there will be the directions which are given in some of the papers coming out from the High Church party--absurdities which are only worthy of the nursery--about the way in which the holy bread is to be eaten, and the holy wine is to be drunk--bringing in idolatry, sheer, clear idolatry, under the pretence of improving upon the too bare simplicity of the worship of Christ. Have a care of the very first step, I pray you.
Or, perhaps, it may come to you in another shape. One will say to you, "The place in which you worship--is it not very dear to you? That seat where you have been accustomed to sit and listen, is it not dear?"; and your natural instincts will say, "Yes." Then it will go a little farther. "That place is holy; it ought never to be used for anything but worship." Then a little farther it will be, "Oh! that is the house of God," and you will come to believe that, contrary to the words which you know are given to you of the Holy Ghost, that God dwells not in temples made with hands; that is to say, in these buildings, and you will get by degrees to have a worship of places, and a worship of days, and a worship of bread, and a worship of wine. And then it will be said to you, "Your minister, has he not often cheered you? Well then, you should reverence him; call him 'Reverend.'" Go a little farther, and you will call him "Father"; yet a little farther, and he will be your confessor; get a little farther and he will be your infallible Pope. It is all step by step it is done. The first step seems to be very harmless indeed. Indeed, it is a kind of voluntary humility. You look as if you were humbling yourselves, and were paying reverence to these things for God's sake, whereas the object is to get you to pay reverence to them, instead of to God, and here the Apostle's words come in, "Let no man beguile you of your reward." They will often attack you in that insidious manner by setting up other objects of reverence besides those which spiritual men worship.
So, too, they will by slow degrees try to insinuate a different way of living from that which is the true life of the Christian. You who have believed in Jesus are saved; your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. You are accustomed to go to Jesus Christ constantly to receive that washing of the feet of which he spake to Peter when he said, "He that is washed needeth not except to wash his feet, for he is clean every whit." You go to him with "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us." But there will be some who will come in and tell you that to live in that way by a simple faith in Jesus Christ is not, perhaps, the best way. Could you not get a little farther? Could you not lead the life of those recluses who mortify the flesh in such a way that at last they come to have no sins, but commence to be perfect in themselves? Could you not begin, at least in some degree, to commit your soul's care to some priest, or to some friend, and instead of making every place holy and every day a holy day, would it not be well to fast on such and such days in the week, to scrupulously observe this rule and the other rule, and walk by the general opinion of the ancient Church, or by some one of those books which profess to show how they used to do it a thousand years ago? All this may have a great show of wisdom, and antiquity, and beauty; there may be a semblance of everything that is holy about it, and names that should never be mentioned without reverence may be appended to it all, but listen to the Apostle as he saith, "Beware lest any man beguile you of your reward," for if they get you away from living upon Christ as a poor sinner from day to day by simple confidence in him, they will beguile you of your reward.
There is another party who will seek to beguile you of your reward by bringing in speculative notions, instead of the simple truths of God's Word. There is a certain class of persons who think that a sermon must be a good one when they cannot understand it, and who are always impressed with a man whose words are long; and if his sentences are involved they feel, poor souls, that because they do not know what he is talking about, there is no doubt that he is a very wise and learned man; and after a while when he does propound something that they can catch at, though it may be quite contrary to what they have learned at their mother's knee or from their father's Bible, yet they are ready to be led off by it. There are many men nowadays who seem to spend their time in nothing else but in spinning new theories, and inventing new systems, gutting the gospel, taking the very soul and bowels out of it, and leaving there nothing but the mere skin and outward bones. The life and marrow of the gospel is being taken away by their learning, by their philosophies, by their refinements, by their bringing everything down to the test of this wonderfully enlightened nineteenth century, to which we are all, I suppose, bound to defer. But a voice comes to us, "Let no man beguile you of your reward." Stand fast to the old truths; they will outlast all these philosophies. Stand fast to the old way of living; it will outlast all the inventions of men. Stand fast by Christ, for you want no other object of worship but himself.
The Apostle gives us this warning, "Let no man beguile you of your reward," reminding us that these persons are very likely to beguile us. They will beguile us by their character. Have I not often heard young people say of such and such a preacher who preaches error, "But he is so good a man." That is nothing to the point. "Though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." If the life of the man should be blameless as the life of Christ, yet if he preach to you other than the gospel of Jesus Christ, take no heed of him; he weareth but the sheep's clothing, and is a wolf after all. Some will plead, "But such and such a man is so eloquent." Ah! brethren, may the day never come when your faith shall stand in the words of men. What is a ready orator, after all, that he should convince your hearts? Are there not ready orators caught any day for everything? Men speak, speak fluently, and speak well in the cause of evil, and there are some that can speak much more fluently and more eloquently for evil than any of our poor tongues are ever likely to do for the right. But words, words, words, flowers of rhetoric, oratory--are these the things that saved you? Are ye so foolish that having begun in the spirit by being convinced of your sins, having begun by being led simply to Christ, and putting your trust in him--are you now to be led astray by these poetic utterances and flowery periods of men? God forbid! Let nothing of this kind beguile you.
Then there will be added to these remarks that the man is not only very good and very eloquent, but that he is very earnest--he seems very humble-minded. Yes, and of old they wore rough garments to deceive, and in the connection of the text we find that those persons were noted for their voluntary humility and their worship of angels. Satan knows very well that if he comes in black he will be discovered, but if he puts on the garb of an angel of light, then men will think he comes from God, and so will be deceived. "By their fruits ye shall know them." If they give you not the gospel, if they exalt not Christ, if they bear not witness to salvation through the precious blood, if they do not lift up Jesus Christ as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, have nothing to do with them, speak as they may. "Let no man beguile you of your reward." Though it should happen to be your relative, one whom you love, one who may have many claims on your respect otherwise--let no man, let no man, however plausible may be his speech, or eminent his character, beguile you of your reward.
Recollect, you professors, you lose the reward if you lose the road to the reward. He that runs may run very fast, but if he does not run in the course, he wins not the prize. You may believe false doctrine with great earnestness, but you will find it false for all that. You may give yourself up indefatigably to the pursuit of the wrong religion, but it will ruin your souls. A notion is abroad that if you are but earnest and sincere, you will be all right. Permit me to remind you that if you travel never so earnestly to the north, you will never reach the south, and if you earnestly take prussic acid you will die, and if you earnestly cut off a limb you will be wounded. You must not only be earnest, but you must be right in it. Hence is it necessary to say, "Let no man beguile you of your reward." "I bear them witness," said the Apostle, "that they had a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge, but went about to establish their own righteousness, and have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God." Oh! may we not be beguiled, then, so as to miss the reward of heaven at the last!
But I must pass on, especially as the light fails us this evening; I hope it is prognostic of a coming shower. Here is a second rendering which may be given to the text:--
II. LET NO MAN DOMINEER OVER YOU.
This rendering, or something analogous to it, is in the French translation. One of the great expositors in his commentary upon this passage refers it to the judges at the end of the course, who sometime would give the reward to the wrong person, and the person who had really run well might thus be deprived of his reward. Now, however close a man may be to Christ, the world, instead of honouring him for it, will, on the contrary, censure and condemn him, and hence the Apostle's exhortation is, "Let no man domineer over you."
And, my brethren, I would earnestly ask you to remember this first as to your course of action. If you conscientiously believe that you are right in what you are doing, study very little who is pleased or who is displeased. If you are persuaded in your own soul that what you believe and what you do are acceptable to God, whether they are acceptable to man or not is of very small consequence. You are not man's servant, you do not look to man for your reward, and, therefore, you need not care what man's opinion may be in this matter. Be just and fear not. Tread in the footsteps of Christ, follow what may. Live not on the breath of men. Let not their applause make you feel great, for perhaps then their censure will make you faint. Let no man in this respect domineer over you, but let Christ be your Master, and look to his smile.
So not only with regard to your course of action, but also with reference to your confidence, let no man domineer over you. If you put your trust in Jesus Christ, there are some who will say it is presumption. Let them say it is presumption. "Wisdom is justified of all her children," and so shall faith be. If you take the promise of God and rest upon it, there will be some who will say that you are hare-brained fanatics. Let them say it. They that trust in him shall never be confounded. The result will honour your faith. You have but to wait a little while, and, perhaps, they that now censure you will have to hold up their hands in astonishment, and say with you, "What hath God wrought?" Your confidence in Christ, especially, my dear young friend, I trust does not depend upon the smile of your relatives. If it did, then their frown might crush it. Walk with your Saviour in the lowly walk of holy confidence, and let not your faith rest in man, but in the smile of God.
Let no man domineer over you, again, by judging your motives. Men will always give as bad a reason as they can for a good man's actions. It seems to be innate in human nature never to give a man credit for being right if you can help it, and often tender minds have been greatly wounded when they have been misrepresented, and their actions have been imputed to sinister and selfish motives, when they have really desired to serve Christ. But do not let your heart be broken about that. You will appear before the judgment-seat of Christ: do not care about these petty judgments-seats of men. Go on with your Master's work dauntlessly and fearlessly. Let them say, as David's brethren said of him, "Because of thy pride and the naughtiness of thy heart to see the battle, art thou come." Go you and get Goliath's head, and bring it back, and that shall be the best answer to these sneering ones. When they see that God is with you, and that he has given you the triumph, you shall have honour, even in the eyes of those who now ridicule you. I think sometimes the Christian should have very much the same bravado against the judgment of men as David had when Michal, the daughter of Saul, came out and said, "How glorious was the king of Israel today, who uncovered himself today in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants," and he said, "It was before the Lord, and I will yet be more vile than thus." Let your eye be to God, and forget the eyes of men. Live so that, whether they know what you do, or do not know, you will not care, for your conduct will bear the blaze of the great Judgment Day, and, therefore, the criticisms of earth do not affect you. Let no man domineer over you.
So may I put it in another light--let no man sway your conscience so as to lead you. I am always anxious, my dear hearers, that, whatever respect I may ever win from you--and I trust I may have your esteem and your affection--yet that you will never believe a doctrine simply because I utter it, but unless I can confirm it from the Word of God, away with it. If it be not according to the teaching of the Lord and Master, I beseech you follow me not. Follow me only as far as I follow Christ. And so with every other man. Let it be God's truth, God's Word, the Holy Spirit's witness to that Word in your soul, that you are seeking after, but rest, I pray you, never short of that, for if you do your faith must stand merely in the wisdom of men, and when the man who helped you to believe is gone, perhaps your faith may be gone too, when most you need its comforting power. No; let no man domineer over you, but press forward in the Christian race, looking unto Jesus, and looking unto Jesus only.
But now a third meaning belongs to the text. A happy circumstance it is, this dark night, that the preacher does not need to use his manuscript, for if he did his sermon must certainly come to an end now. But here is this point, "Let no man beguile you of your reward." It may mean this:--
III. LET NO MAN ROB YOU OF THE PRESENT REWARD WHICH YOU HAVE IN BEING A CHRISTIAN.
Let no man deprive you of the present comfort which your faith should bring to you. Let me just for a few minutes have your attention while I speak upon this. Dear brethren, you and I, if we are believers in Christ, are this day completely pardoned. There is no sin in God's book against us. We are wholly and completely justified. The righteousness of Jesus Christ covers us from head to foot, and we stand before God as if we had never sinned. Now let no man rob you of this reward. Do not be tempted by anything that is said to doubt the completeness of a believer in Christ. Hold this, and, as you hold it, enjoy it. Do not let the man, yourself, whom you have most to fear, beguile you. Even though conscience should upbraid you, and you should have many grave reasons for doubt, as you imagine, yet if you believe in Jesus, stand to it--"There is, therefore, now no condemnation to me, for I am in Christ Jesus; he that believeth on him is not condemned; I have believed,and I am not condemned, neither will he permit condemnation to be thundered against me, for Christ has borne my sin for me, and I am clear in him." Let no man beguile you of the reward of feeling that you are complete in Christ.
Further, you who have believed in Jesus Christ are safe in Christ. Because he lives, you shall live also. Who shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord? He has said, "I give unto my sheep eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand." Now there are some who will tell you that you are not safe, and that it is dangerous for you to believe that you are. Let no man beguile you of this reward. You are saved. If you are believing on him, he will keep you, and you may sing, "Now unto him that is able to keep us from falling, and to present us faultless before his presence with exceeding great joy, unto him be glory." Hold to that blessed truth that you are in Jesus--safe in Jesus Christ.
There is a third blessed truth, that not only are you pardoned and safe in Christ, but you are accepted at this moment, in the Beloved. Your acceptance with God does not rest upon anything in you. You are accepted because you are in Christ, accepted for Christ's sake. Now sometimes you will get robbed of this reward if you listen to the voice which says, "Why, there is sin in you still; your prayers are imperfect; your actions are stained." Yes, but let no man beguile you of this conviction that, sinner as you are, you are still accepted in Christ Jesus.
The Lord grant that you may feel this within, and let no man beguile you of your reward as long as you live. May you live and die in the enjoyment of it, beloved, for Christ's sake. Amen.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eduardo Grequi
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Member # 3984
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I truly believe if a person is born again, he or she will walk with the Lord! The mere mentioning Jesus name casts out demons! If A person even calls on Jesus in their death bed, then we as people have to accept that. Jesus accepted the theif on the cross next to him on that day of sorrows! There are those who call out to the Lord, but their heart have never yielded over to Him, That is why
"NOT EVERYONE WHO SAITH UNTO ME LORD,LORD, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN."
Matt 7:21
People believe they can wavier like an indecisive fool. They keep one foot in the narrow and the other foot in the wide; however he is just foooling himself! REV 3: 14-22. GOD DOES NOT WANT US LUKEWARM!
He wants us to be either cold or hot! Moses beesched his people that day in the Sinai "Chose this day whom you belong to, the Lord or mammon!"
AN INDECISIVE PERSON/MASTER LEADS OTHERS ASTRAY!
Its any old Jewish proverb my Grandfather would say! Grandpa would say, Walk with God with a sure foot and an established faith on His statues!
I do not know if he were quoting the bible, but he was a strong Orthodox Jew!. I hope he knew the Messiah before he died in 1972!
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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Linda quote:
How could anyone answer this poll Dale; How could anyone believe that one could be saved and born again by the Holy Spirit of God and never change?
I did not make that statement up, Lars7 wrote it on another thread
It is easy to answer, you either agree ao disagree
that was a simple question
I agree with you though, Yahweh can not come into a life and that life not change!
5 people voted so far, one agreed / four disagreed
I was one of the disagree votes
any one care to identify themselves as to which way they voted
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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wparr
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Member # 891
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Don't judge salvation by other peoples behavior.
Am I secure in my ETERNAL salvation?
YOU BET YA
When you judge salvation, eternal security, sanctification by how OTHER people act, then you end up like the lost muslims who point to the crusades as a reason to NOT believe.
When you look at and compare yourself to other, you can ALWAYS find somebody worse.
We are to compare ourselves TO CHRIST ALONE.
I'm sure I could follow ANYONE around, and comparing them to Christ, find times to say
That wasn't how a little Christ is suppose to behave.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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Watcher
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Thank You! helpforhomeschoolers I agree and could not have said it better.
No vote here. ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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How could anyone answer this poll Dale; How could anyone believe that one could be saved and born again by the Holy Spirit of God and never change?
How could any believe that a Holy and Righteous God would begin the work of transforming man into his image and allow that man a ceertain number of years, controling that number of years to the second, and cause no change in him?
I believe that a man could be saved and die that day and be saved as was the theif on the cross.
But I do not believe that a born again man can live a liftime and undergo no change. This life is a life of being transformed - it might not happen the way you or I or anyone else thinks it will or look like any of us think that is should look, but God is forever working in the Children of God to change the will and the want and transform us.
So I could not possibly answer this question because I do not believe that God operates this way.
It is like saying if a man sits in a completely sealed lead lined room and is exposed repeatedly to radiation, will exposure to radiation kill him. He wont be exposed to raditation if he sits in the lead lined room.
God will not re-generate someone and not work in them to change them.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
quote:
Lars7 If anyone comes to Christ and is saved....and the rest of his life never picks up his Bible....and just continues his life unchanged He will get into Heaven....He will smell like smoke for all his works will burn up before the Lord...nevertheless...He will be there.
Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 41 user(s) have voted.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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