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Topic: Apostacy
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
That is the most difficult thing for me to grasp in this issue. Do you think that they started out for Christ or Did they start out for what they thought was Christ, but is not Christ? I cant say that I fully get that or understand that completely. Maybe some of both. David the other day talked about Saul being annointed but choosing to go bad.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
I was watching Rev. Hagee today. He said that the Churches involved in Apostacy will be used by the anit-Christ. This is scary to me. That a Church that started out for Christ can be used by satan.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Adv.Christian
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![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) Love and greetings to all. I do not know how many here have ever had the opportunity to work on a farm but please bear with me while I use this environment as an analogy. When you have a large field that you have to plow the rows into to prepare the soil to plant you need to keep those rows as straight as at all possible. Now the way to plow a field and keep those rows straight is you learn not to look at the ground as you plow but instead you look far down the field and chose a target to head for and plow the field keeping the tractor headed for the target at all times. If while plowing if you take your eyes off the target ahead of you and look away from it, even if you look at the previously plowed rows, you will inevitably skew the rows and lose the straight line you worked so hard to establish.
Why do I post this? I personally believe this applies to the very base of the subject being discussed in that only by keeping our eyes, mind and spirit focused on Jesus can we hope to maintain our straight walk in the Christian faith. If a teacher, any teacher teaches a belief that causes a person’s focus to come off Christ then it is a Christian’s duty to stand firm and call that teaching to bear. No this dose not mean that all teachings by that teacher is wrong however using the above analogy if you plow one of the rows in the field skewed you have one of two choices, either you work to straighten the rows back up or you lose the percentage of the usable field that the skewed row cost you.
Just as with Peter when he exited the boat to walk to Jesus on the water; if we allow our eyes to come off Jesus we will no longer be headed straight towards Him. If a teacher is teaching a false teaching; rather intentionally or not, (not a different possible interpretation of scripture, but actual false teaching which directly disagree with scripture) then Christians not only should avoid listening to the teacher but also vocally stand against those teachings. As always my love to all and May God Bless. ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
Posts: 299 | From: Raleigh/North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2004
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
If this is not your calling, then you need to examine if you are a born-again believer in Jesus Christ, as it is the calling of every believer to up hold the truth.
I agree.
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SoftTouch
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Amen David!
HisGrace, I'd rather not ingest the Poison that's served along with that meat you're talking about. As Linda has pointed out many times "A little leaven leavens the whole lump." And as I've said many times "A glass of pure water with a drop of poision in it will still kill you (or make you very sick at the very least!)."
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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KnowHim
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Member # 1
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posted
>>>> Because many feel as if their calling is to uproot heretical spirits in many of these televangelists, they may be missing out on some good meat in their messages, by dwelling on the negative instead of focusing on the positive.
If this is not your calling, then you need to examine if you are a born-again believer in Jesus Christ, as it is the calling of every believer to up hold the truth.
"Tolerance is a virtue of a man without convictions" - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
You can say the Bible says dont judge and I would have to agree with you; but you cannot build a doctrine out of that with out your doctrine also allowing for harmony of that scripture with all the scriptures that say to judge. This is because there are some things we are commanded to judge and some things that are not given to us to judge and never will be given to us to judge. Your doctrine that says we cannot judge the hearts of men does not negate my doctrine that says we must judge sin in the body of Christ. Nor does mine negate yours both are true. The fact that the Bible does say we cannot judge the hearts of men, does not negate the one that says we can and do hear the hearts of men at any given time, for out of the heart the mouth does speak and out of the evil treasure of the heart it does bring forth evil speaking.
Because many feel as if their calling is to uproot heretical spirits in many of these televangelists, they may be missing out on some good meat in their messages, by dwelling on the negative instead of focusing on the positive.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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HisGrace, I dont know what this is in response to as I have not this morning gone back to look at the other page and see where this thread went overnight, but I thought this was excellent:
quote:
Our version of the scriptures isn't always written in stone. The scriptures never change, but our perception can be different because of where we are in our own individual lives.
Take the Book of Job for example. If a single mom is going through a nasty divorce, seeing the terrible trials Job went through and how God brought him through the other end victoriously, will give her comfort and hope.
On the other hand, if the Lord is trying to do a work in me and I am having trouble with pride and resentment, reading the Book of Job will give me wisdom when I see how God dealt with Job.
The Bible is for everyone. It's deep secrets meet us at our own personal needs.
I so do aggree with you in this regard. But this is not in my understanding a "version" of the scriptures. The fact that today because you need the wisdom in job and by the power of the spirit are given this in reading Job - this in no way changes that there is also encouragement in the scriptures of Job. HE is in the Scripture and HE is the Great I AM.... what ever we need he is. But these are not iterpretations of scripture and they are not contradicted by another scripture and they do not exclude one another by the other's presence. If however, you had a doctrine that said the enemy has free reign in the earth, we could go to job and see that this is not so, and nothing you could show that looks like the enemy has free reign could contradict this that is found in Job, except that something wrong with one of your interpretations of those scriptures.
So in that I must say scripture interprets scripture.
You can say the Bible says dont judge and I would have to agree with you; but you cannot build a doctrine out of that with out your doctrine also allowing for harmony of that scripture with all the scriptures that say to judge. This is because there are some things we are commanded to judge and some things that are not given to us to judge and never will be given to us to judge. Your doctrine that says we cannot judge the hearts of men does not negate my doctrine that says we must judge sin in the body of Christ. Nor does mine negate yours both are true. The fact that the Bible does say we cannot judge the hearts of men, does not negate the one that says we can and do hear the hearts of men at any given time, for out of the heart the mouth does speak and out of the evil treasure of the heart it does bring forth evil speaking.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
I guess I'm not understanding what's being said here. It isn't clear as to what scripture or what the interpretation was, etc. so it's really difficult to understand the conclusion.
I guess I am not making myself clear, SoftTouch. It doesn't matter what scripture I am referring to. What I am trying to say is, just because we don't agree with a certain preacher's interpretation of any scripture, that doesn't make them to be a false prophet.
Maybe Linda sums it up by saying "By the way HisGrace, I have understood you point for quite some time; we just have different points."
Our version of the scriptures isn't always written in stone. The scriptures never change, but our perception can be different because of where we are in our own individual lives.
Take the Book of Job for example. If a single mom is going through a nasty divorce, seeing the terrible trials Job went through and how God brought him through the other end victoriously, will give her comfort and hope.
On the other hand, if the Lord is trying to do a work in me and I am having trouble with pride and resentment, reading the Book of Job will give me wisdom when I see how God dealt with Job.
The Bible is for everyone. It's deep secrets meet us at our own personal needs.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
By the way HisGrace, I have understood you point for quite some time; we just have different points.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
646 apostasia apostasia ap-os-tas-ee’-ah
feminine of the same as 647; TDNT-1:513,88; n f
AV-to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Apostasy is derived from this word:
868 afisthmi aphistemi af-is’-tay-mee
from 575 and 2476; TDNT-1:512,88; v
AV-depart 10, draw away 1, fall away 1, refrain 1, withdraw self 1, depart from 1; 15
1) to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
1a) to excite to revolt
2) to stand off, to stand aloof
2a) to go away, to depart from anyone
2b) to desert, withdraw from one
2c) to fall away, become faithless
2d) to shun, flee from
2e) to cease to vex one
2f) to withdraw one’s self from, to fall away
2g) to keep one’s self from, absent one’s self from
It can be to depart from sound doctrine; to depart from faith; to depart from a person, to depart from faith. The feminine of the word is to divorce.
In the last days we are told that men will depart from sound doctrine.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eduardo Grequi
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Member # 3984
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posted
apostasy, what is it? You first have to define what you mean by it!
Apostacy= desertion,abandonment,forsaking,forswearing, relinquishment; rejection, rejecting, renunciation, renouncement, abjuration, repudiation
withdrawl, secession; falling away, dropping out, copping out, turning one's back on; backsliding, recidivism, dereliction
In my Synonym Finder by J.L. Rodale there are alot more definition. Almost an entire page.
I voted no because to have apostacy, one has to deny his faith in Jesus or His relationship with Jesus.
For a moment in time Peter was an apostate, but Judas was more of an apostate. Peter went on to be an advocate of Jesus Christ, while Judas hung himself. At times christians becomes apostates when they backslide and deny Jesus.Are they saved? That is up to Jesus to decide and to know. Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments!
End times saints are apostates of the anti-christ!
Is that a true statement or not?
To be an apostate to someone, is to be the rival-oposite of the compared persona!
All good christians are an apostate to the anti-christ, while their allegiance is to the One and Only Son of God- Jesus the Christ!
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I remember one poster said she had discernment about a certain scripture, and I'm sure she was right, until someone else came along with added insight and somehow the original opinion took on another new faction to it.
Yes it is true that one can gain added insight to certain scripture that was not clear before. However, that's not to say that the discernment that (which ever poster you're referring to) had was faulty in light of how that particular scripture had been being presented by certain teachers.
She had studied the scriptures for herself. I am agreeing that the discernment was not faulty, so therefore we have to be careful who we call false prophets. The discernment issue just needed further education.
I guess I'm not understanding what's being said here. It isn't clear as to what scripture or what the interpretation was, etc. so it's really difficult to understand the conclusion.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I remember one poster said she had discernment about a certain scripture, and I'm sure she was right, until someone else came along with added insight and somehow the original opinion took on another new faction to it.
Yes it is true that one can gain added insight to certain scripture that was not clear before. However, that's not to say that the discernment that (which ever poster you're referring to) had was faulty in light of how that particular scripture had been being presented by certain teachers.
She had studied the scriptures for herself. I am agreeing that the discernment was not faulty, so therefore we have to be careful who we call false prophets. The discernment issue just needed further education.
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
The point I am trying to make Linda is that just because we don't think their teachings line up with our interpretation of the scriptures, doesn't mean that we have to totally push them aside and call them false prophets.
A False Prophet is one who claims "Thus Saith The Lord" and the thing does not come to pass... This would include statements like the homosexual movement would be destroyed, or that Jesus would Physically appear at future crusades, among others. (These are not exact quotes, but they convey the idea behind what was actually said).
A False Teacher is one who teachings things that are Not found in Scripture and can not be backed up by the whole councel of the Lord. One can not take a verse of scripture and create an entire teaching on it that goes far beyond what was written.
A False Teacher might also be classified as one who recieves strange revelation knowledge like God is 6' (whatever ") or that the God Head exists of nine different parts. (Again, these are not word for word quotes. I don't have the time right now to go hunting for the exact words)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I remember one poster said she had discernment about a certain scripture, and I'm sure she was right, until someone else came along with added insight and somehow the original opinion took on another new faction to it.
Yes it is true that one can gain added insight to certain scripture that was not clear before. However, that's not to say that the discernment that (which ever poster you're referring to) had was faulty in light of how that particular scripture had been being presented by certain teachers.
As for me, I know that at one time I didn't understand that there is power in the spoken word, however, that doesn not change the fact that the way in which this is being taught by some teachers is out of Line with Scripture.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
If they do not stop teaching it then we as a body are to reject them as teachers.
The point I am trying to make Linda is that just because we don't think their teachings line up with our interpretation of the scriptures, doesn't mean that we have to totally push them aside and call them false prophets. They may see the scriptures in a different light.
How can anyone say that the way they see the scriptures is the definitive and final authority?
I remember one poster said she had discernment about a certain scripture, and I'm sure she was right, until someone else came along with added insight and somehow the original opinion took on another new faction to it.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
You have some doctrinal beliefs that I don't agree with, Linda, and I feel as if you interpret the scriptures different from what is written, and you probably believe the same about my views. Does that mean we should reject each other as teachers?
Well my first thought is we certainly could chose to do this.
My second thought is, I do not recall that either of us have every claimed any authority as Bible Teachers in the venue that we share on this BBS; it is my understanding that here we are all brothers and sisters sharing the word and none of us claims any authority or position as teachers holding the final word.
Though I do believe that there are many here with the gift of teacher and I suppose anytime we post am essay or article or study that we have done this could be said to be teaching. I think that the venue here is different than if you came to a Sunday School class or a seminar or something like this where one is clearly student and one is clearly teacher.
Any way to answer your question assuming that we could here be considered teachers, I suppose that either of us could say to the other, I think you teach thus and such in error and here is why and then the other could either say yes you are correct and see this and I will stop teaching it; or the other could say well I think you view this incorrectly and continue teaching the subject in question and the one who brought the claim of error could deside not to listen to the other and could claim them and false teacher on the board and say why.
My guess would be that neither of us has done this because we view this BBS as an open forum where there is no implied or perceived authority among us. But I could be wrong of course.
quote:
You have said before that Joyce Meyer has wrongly said that Jesus went to hell for the three days after his physical body died. I have learnt mountains of wisdom from her and I am not going to get hung up on this one view that may or may not be correct.
As I stated this is not my problem with her as she has stoped teaching this and her ministry no longer prints this material. This is not my personal issue with her.
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I'll defy anyone to give me 100% assurance on what happened to him during that three days. It is a matter of semantics and there's nothing wrong with that.
When one defies another to give them assurance in anything I think it is pretty clear that one does not desire to receive assurance. That tells me that there is no point in discussing the importance or lack of importance in semantics with you. So I wont.
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I'm not going to get wrapped up on be becoming obsessed about proving this issue. It gets my focus off the message of Jesus.
This is certainly your perogative. If something takes your focus off Jesus then you probably should not do it.
My personal experience has been that such issues have actually led me to dilligently search the scriptures for the answers and this has increased my focus on Jesus as all of the scripture does speak of him and he does by the power of the Holy Spirit speak through them; I find that for me personally this is much more effective way to seek his wisdom and understanding than listening to someone preach the scriptures and I enjoy it more and find my walk with him is improved as he is a rewarder of those who seek; we do all have different approaches don't we?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Well, I do not think that it matters what we think is correct; I think it matters what the scripture says is correct.
Then secondly, the scripture I believe shows that when one who publically preaches or teaches teaches something that is different than what is written, they are to be personally confronted and given the opportunity to correct their error or stop preaching it.
If they do not stop teaching it then we as a body are to reject them as teachers.
You have some doctrinal beliefs that I don't agree with, Linda, and I feel as if you interpret the scriptures different from what is written, and you probably believe the same about my views. Does that mean we should reject each other as teachers? I'm sure we have learnt other good lessons from each other.
You have said before that Joyce Meyer has wrongly said that Jesus went to hell for the three days after his physical body died. I have learnt mountains of wisdom from her and I am not going to get hung up on this one view that may or may not be correct. I'll defy anyone to give me 100% assurance on what happened to him during that three days. It is a matter of semantics and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not going to get wrapped up on be becoming obsessed about proving this issue. It gets my focus off the message of Jesus.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by redkermit:
Mr. Graham has faithfully and clearly preached the Gospel for over 50 years, and since the interview he has reaffirmed his belief in Christ as the only way of salvation: "In all our Crusades we place a prominent banner with Jesus' words, 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.' There can be no true Christianity apart from Him. While some of the ethics and idealism of other religions may run parallel to Christian teachings, the fact remains, as stated by Jesus Christ, 'No man cometh unto the Father but by me' (John 14:6, KJV
I pray that we can accept this - case closed concerning confusion about Billy Graham as far as I am concerned.
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redkermit
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For anyone that may be interested, here was the Billy Graham Ministry's response to my question about the Schuller interview:
quote:
July 8, 2005Dear Matt,Thank you for your email. It is good to hear from you.We appreciate your interest and concern about the interview with Mr. Graham which was conducted by Rev. Robert Schuller. Mr. Graham has faithfully and clearly preached the Gospel for over 50 years, and since the interview he has reaffirmed his belief in Christ as the only way of salvation: "In all our Crusades we place a prominent banner with Jesus' words, 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.' We put that verse there because people live in a confused world, with so many competing religious voices calling men and women to follow them. But Christ is distinctive and exclusive about the way to God. There can be no true Christianity apart from Him. While some of the ethics and idealism of other religions may run parallel to Christian teachings, the fact remains, as stated by Jesus Christ, 'No man cometh unto the Father but by me' (John 14:6, KJV)."Over the years I have met people with many religious and philosophical views. Many of them have had deep commitment to their beliefs. But I have become even more convinced of the uniqueness and the truth of Christ and His Gospel. And I want to continue preaching it as long as possible."We trust that you will pray that Mr. Graham will always correctly interpret God's Word and be sensitive to the Spirit's leading in every situation.May God bless you and meet your every need.Sincerely,Nancy Wright-LeekAdministrative Services CorrespondentBilly Graham Evangelistic Association
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
And then again, just because public ministries have one particular area as being what we think is incorrect, we may be tempted to believe that everything they teach is incorrect.
…But who can believe that preacher, when everything they preach is suspect? And who would risk continuing listening to a preacher that preaches one particular area that is contrary to the Word of God? They would be toying with their own souls…
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If one particular part preached is tainted, ALL is tainted…and deadly.
God's Word is flawless.
Proverbs 30 5:6 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Well, I do not think that it matters what we think is correct; I think it matters what the scripture says is correct.
Then secondly, the scripture I believe shows that when one who publically preaches or teaches teaches something that is different than what is written, they are to be personally confronted and given the opportunity to correct their error or stop preaching it.
If they do not stop teaching it then we as a body are to reject them as teachers.
You have stated that you like Joyce Meyer. I too like Joyce Meyer. I however no longer will listen to her teach, though I believe that she does still teach today some things that are good.
For one, she teaches repentance and I respect that. She teaches walking in the spirit and I respect that. She used to teach a doctrine of demons that some do still teach that when studied out very carefully, I believe denies the work of the cross and the sufficiency of the sacrifice. She was confronted with this error and to her credit, she has earned my respect in that matter because she stopped teaching this error and her ministry stopped printing the booklet that contained this teaching. But today, I believe that she is teaching something else that is contrary to scripture and she has been confronted with this error and she has not responded with repentance and she has not ceased to teach it and so, I knowing this cannot feel that I am obedient to God and HIS word and continue to listen to her teaching anything; Nor can I feel that I am edifying the body if I promote her as a doctrinally sound or "good" teacher; nor can I feel that I am being loving to her to accept her teaching or encourage others to do so. So I do not and I do speak against this teaching and I do pray and encourage others to pray that she would stop teaching this error. I feel that this is my obligation to God and to the Body of Christ.
When I look at this passage of Scripture, the words of Jesus, I notice this:
Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
I notice that Jesus does not talk about the good doctrines that the Nicolaitans do hold and teach. Surely they must have held some doctrines that were sound. But in this scripture, this churches are admonished for having in their assembly those that held the false doctrine that was held by the Nicolaitans.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I personally do not believe can allow those who teach a little leaven to teach period even if with the little leaven they teach a whole lot of good grain.... the little leaven will still leaven the bread.
I can however, know and keep the grain that they taught and throw out the leaven - this speaks to our own mind and what we do with what we have heard and testing all things is something that should be taught as part of discipleship.... but this is personal to my own walk.
Not allowing those who hold false doctrine or words of demons spirits to teach is about the whole body.... Jesus is admonishing a Church for allowing this in their congregation.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Amen Adv Christian, this is so very true!
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Speaking on a personal note I will admit that there have been times when I have found the discussions to show me where I had been interpreting certain aspects of scripture incorrectly and until we are willing to see our own ability to be wrong it is impossible to grow beyond our current place in knowledge of God’s Word.
Sometimes I think we can view those who have public ministries as being above error we think that because they have one particular area correct, every thing they teach is correct
And then again, just because public ministries have one particular area as being what we think is incorrect, we may be tempted to believe that everything they teach is incorrect.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Amen Adv Christian, this is so very true!
quote:
Speaking on a personal note I will admit that there have been times when I have found the discussions to show me where I had been interpreting certain aspects of scripture incorrectly and until we are willing to see our own ability to be wrong it is impossible to grow beyond our current place in knowledge of God’s Word.
Not just our ability to be wrong either but the ability of those who teach to be wrong. Sometimes I think we can view those who have public ministries as being above error we think that because they have one particular area correct, every thing they teach is correct, and this I think is hardly ever the case. Thus the scriptures that speak to trying all things and keeping the good, or not esteeming men above what is written. We are all human, we all see what we see in part.
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Adv.Christian
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Apostasy: renunciation of faith: the renunciation of a religious or political belief or allegiance.
Please forgive my ignorance; but is this not, however worded, exactly what a discussion of differing views is?
While I agree there are often some rather heated discussions of beliefs, there is now, and will be until Christ’s return, different interpretations of scripture and contentions over rather or not the teachings are correct. Steel sharpens steel and while the discussions can be heated they serve to increase the strength of all those involved by focusing study on the point being discussed.
Speaking on a personal note I will admit that there have been times when I have found the discussions to show me where I had been interpreting certain aspects of scripture incorrectly and until we are willing to see our own ability to be wrong it is impossible to grow beyond our current place in knowledge of God’s Word.
As always my love to all and May God Bless all.
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by whitesands777:
I've said this before and I'll say it again...satan is very good at being subtle...
And that's what apostacy is...It is subtle. You see a church with a steeple, a cross, a preacher, prayers, a nice clean haircut, smiling, nice suit, a Bible, and sermons about God that put a slight twist on the real meaning of His Word looks like "church" to people but what is being said does nothing more but relieve itchy ears by casting a shadow over the seriousness of our sin and the need for repentance and to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
That's absolutely right!!!
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whitesands777
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I've said this before and I'll say it again...satan is very good at being subtle...
And that's what apostacy is...It is subtle. You see a church with a steeple, a cross, a preacher, prayers, a nice clean haircut, smiling, nice suit, a Bible, and sermons about God that put a slight twist on the real meaning of His Word looks like "church" to people but what is being said does nothing more but relieve itchy ears by casting a shadow over the seriousness of our sin and the need for repentance and to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
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SoftTouch
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posted
Preach It Sista!!!! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) AMEN!
(I thought I had gone into the twilight zone for a moment LOL, but then again, I don't think my first question was really clear enough ![[Wink]](wink.gif) sorry)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
I think I misread your post. I agree with you. I thought you were asking about those who teach the world's wisdom and call it God's. I thought you were asking about them knowing what it is they teach.
I am sorry. I absolutely agree with your concerns. I think that this recent thing with Osteen is a perfect example. He made a wonderful confession and apology for his not having made clear that Jesus is the ONLY way.
But that came in response to an outrage. This is because most people get that message from Christianity....at least until recently.
But there is no outrage over these teachings because many have already been conditioned to them by the world.... Anthony Robbins taught this stuff in the 70's and 80's; Napolean Hill and Peale taught this stuff in a generation before him. Most of what is being taught today in these mega churches and by most of these big name prosperity preachers has been taught in the secular realm by entrpreneurs from Andrew Carnigie to Charles Givens and every one in between.
Underlying it all is humanism...man can create his own destiny, be the captain of his ship....this is the inborn desire of all men. This is the original sin....I can do it MY way; own my own, I dont need a God I am one.
All Chrisitiandom has done is repackaged it and called it faith....but a little analyzation shows it amounts to having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.
Seeking the world's goods through what you believe is God is still seeking the world's goods. We are supposed to be seeking the Kingdom of God. Which is a people living in covenant.
It is the age old religion of Babylon that worships the creation and not the creator.
Prosperity has become a god; healing has become a god; power of mind has become a god; the world's view of happiness is become a god; these things are what men seek and when man learns to manipulate them, man himself has become the god of his gods.
The problem is the thing that is missing IS GOD ALmighty. And when this life passes none of those gods or the man who made them gods will be there in Eternity.... But God Almighty will be.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
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posted
Well, yes I do get what you're saying, but I'm still having a problem with one issue.
What about a New Believer who has heard, believed, and accepted the Gospel, Repented of their Sin and asked Jesus to forgive them and be Lord of their life; but has not read the Bible yet? (Or maybe has read it, but hasn't studied it?) Someone in this position needs to rely on Elders until they are able to search the scriptures for themselves. These New Believers are Easy Marks for the False Teachers and could easily be taught that these practices (which are really Occultic) are Biblical. The New Believer would not know how to search the scriptures to see if what's being said is indeed true. Herein lies my Concern.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I think that if it is not Biblical it is of the other side period; there really are two world views...the Bible and the other - all the others amount to one - that which is not of God.
There really are two Kingdoms God's and the other.
There really are two wills - God's and the other.
There really are to ways of walking - in faith and spirit or in sin and flesh.
There really are two ways - Man's way, which is the world's way, which is Satan's way - OR God's way which is Christ.
There really are two paths - one is straight and narrow and leads to life - this is God's path, and there is a broad path that leads to destruction this is Satan's path - it is also man's path. Man must get on God's path to get to life.
I could be wrong, but I dont think you have to be unwittingly taught majick, I think that all things evil are in the world and of the world and those of the world will know them; I think that you have to be taught what is not of the world. I think you have to die that you can be re-born so that you are not of the world. I think that once this happens you have to learn to live in this body that is still of the world with out listening to the mind of the world that goes with it;
I dont think that we understand that the mind of the flesh is not our mind - we are children of God with the mind of Christ, but minding the things of the flesh and of the world, we are listening to the mind of the flesh and the mind of the world and that is not our mind so guess whose mind it is?
Why did Jesus say to Peter Get behind me Satan? I believe that it was because Peter spoke from the mind of his flesh and that voice is the voice of Satan.
Again, we see the absoulte imperative that we must renew our minds with the word, that we may "prove" "demonstrate" that which is the PERFECT will of God.
All we see in these false teaching is the demonstration of the will of Satan coming forth out of unrenewed minds. The evil is already there unless it is purged.
Do you get what I am saying?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The Worldly church says keep what you have of this world's do some majick and get some more; then borrow the things God has for your temporary walk in the world.
The trouble with the latter is when the end of this world and this life comes - there will not be anything stored for the next.
This is the part that's got me really concerned right now. The Bible says:
quote:
Rev. 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
What does this mean for all these people who are being taught Visualization/Confession (which is sorcery), but they don't know it?
I once had a christian councelor who encouraged me to do visualization. When I read what that really is, it broke my heart! I had to immediately repent and ask forgiveness once I realized it.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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That is a question worthy of its own thread Drew! When I have thought about it, I think that God could have chosen to manifest Christ to the world in this century with all the mass media availability that we have. But God chose to manifest Christ in the first century AD, in exactly the time and culture that he chose and since I do not think that God does things by happenstance, I am sure there was a purpose in this. I think that the Gospel was supposed to be taken personally. I think that the way that the Apostles took the Gospel was exactly what God intended. Additionally, I think that they were commissioned to go and make disciples. I do not think that the gathering of the assembly was ever intended to be the place where people were brought in to "get saved".
I believe that local congregations were to elect and SEND out, those who world go into the world.
Further, I dont think that it was ever taught in the scriptures that "we" lead people to Christ or "get people saved" GOD draws people to Christ and God saves people; If CHRIST be lifted up not men and bands, but if CHRIST be lifted up HE will draw men to HIMself.
When I look at the church in the world, I see the greatest faith in the villiage churches of the third world. I see the greatest faith in remote villiages of India, where God has brought freedom and healing from demonic opression through the love of a brother who knows and lives a life that is just like theirs and has risked all and traveled for days on foot or on bycicle to bring them the truth of Christ. I see the greatest faith in the jungles of remote China where people gather with leaves of scripture to worship and praise and learn of our Father God. These are the places where the church was founded in the tradition of the Apostles and in this setting we see the faith of the church of the apostles that is willing to endure all things with Joy and thanksgiving because they know what awaits them at the end of the journey.
I read the book by Yohannan, founder of Gosepel for Asia, and he talks about his excitement of coming to America and when he arrived his host was anxious to show him what God was doing they took this man from the backcountry of india in to the city and they pointed out to him their huge church buildings and all their denominational office buildings and they had such pride in these things...and all he could think of was where are the people? Where are the souls that God has changed their lives? This was what he was anxious to see.
Well todays mega churches in america proudly speak of their numbers. But how different are those lives than the lives in the world? Not very that I can see. Not very that the polls and the statistics do show.
These things ought to speak to us, but sadly they do not speak what we want to hear and so we do not listen.
We want to keep our lives and have HIS life too. We are live the rich man who will live by the Golden rule, but we will not sell all we have.
Mega churches and the Gospel that is being taught today is a gospel of how to keep all you have and get more; so you can justify your self and pat yourself on the back for the good works that you do and still have plenty left over; stick God's name on it and claim that it is blessing.
But the blessings of God bring no sorrow and are incorruptible and will not pass with this life and this earth - they like the ONE who gives them are eternal. But if we will seek HIM, we will have his blessing and we will borrow from Pharoah all that we need for this life and Pharaoh will deliver it to us because we have favor.
God says sell all that you have of this world and buy what I have and this world will let you borrow what you need for your temporary walk in the wilderness.
The Worldly church says keep what you have of this world's do some majick and get some more; then borrow the things God has for your temporary walk in the world.
The trouble with the latter is when the end of this world and this life comes - there will not be anything stored for the next.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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redkermit
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
home-visit those who become bed-ridden or even notice their absence?
Great points, but I like this one in particular. I was dating this girl a few years ago who went to a Baptist church. They had a ministry where EVERY week, they visited all of the church in their homes. I really respected this, and think it is a great ministry that more churches should take up.
My church just recently started a ministry like this, but will be phone calls and/or cards.
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Listen Online:
www.wmuz.com
www.997flr.org
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Caretaker
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posted
One consideration in regards to the "mega-churches", and media ministries, is can they minister Biblically to the individual?
Can an "assembly-line" Christianity, with a buffet-style serve-yourself presentation, administer church discipline, disciple on an individual basis, home-visit those who become bed-ridden or even notice their absence?
With Madison Avenue flair and theatrical presentation, has cotton-candy-sweet-fluff, replaced the Gospel for the sake of financial expediency and mass appeal?
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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redkermit
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posted
Generally speaking, I think it's a good thing to have the information out there. Do I think it has gotten carried away at times? Maybe, but there was a pastor's wife from my childhood that had a saying that has stuck with me my whole life: "It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" (of course she was referring to an umbrella, but still... ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ).
To me, the most damaging information is that which is hard proof, such as the interviews some have witnessed themselves. I just think we do need to be careful when pulling information from all different kinds of web sites, as it is very easy to have your own web site and put whatever you want on it.
But, the bottom line is, we are each individually responsible for searching these things out for ourselves. For example, with the most recent information about Billy Graham, I went to his web site and sent them an email questioning them. I have yet to get a response, but ultimately, it is up to each individual to research and hold these teachers and their teachings up to the only infallible source, which is the Word of God.
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Listen Online:
www.wmuz.com
www.997flr.org
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SoftTouch
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posted
Yes, God will indeed show the truth and when He does, I'm afraid a whole lot of people are going to be unpleasantly surprised and my heart Breaks for them! ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Gramajo320
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posted
Relying on articles that are written and put on the internet, particularly the ones who tear down are not always the best ones to accept as gospel truth. One should always remember that and be extremely careful before believing every word they read in the articles and accept it as being totally true. God will show the truth and it's not in those articles. He always does.
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Gramajo320
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
I think as Christians we are all equiped to reconize false Preachers. They are those that Preach different from God's Word. If it is contrary to the Bible it is wrong.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Gramajo320
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One must have a great deal of discernment before declaring that others are wrong and calling them false prophets. So much false information has been put out on the internet and that is why having discernment is so very important
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Gramajo320
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Caretaker
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posted
One needs to be informed as to the false prophets leading so many astray, especially the glitz and glitter beggin-for-bucks apostles of the WOF.
2 Tim 3:
1: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3: Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4: Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6: For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8: Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9: But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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yahsway
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posted
I for one believe we are in the last days spoken of in the apostolic scriptures.
I also believe that it is helpful to know what is taking place right now concerning the falling away and apostacy that is most certainly occuring before our eyes.
We need information and discussions like this because many do come here from all walks of life and from different denominational backgrounds and many are being decieved and need to read and understand what is happening.Of course no one is under any obligation to read the apostacy posts or even to answer them, so it in no way hurts to have these discussions.
I have never took it as being someones own personal agenda to post on the apostacy that is taking place today but some of us could possibly be called as Yahwehs Watchmen to sound the alarm on such issues.
So please do not quit posting on the apostacy on my account. I for one believe it is a sound and valid warning for the church body today. Shalom and Blessings.
TG, Sure hope you have a better day tomorrow and may the rest of your day be blessed. Cindy
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SoftTouch
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
The problem here is not too much information, but people getting their feelings hurt when something is said about their fav Preacher. People take things way to personally.
Sister Betty, you are an Absolute GEM and I just Love you So Much!
I knew how much you admired Billy Graham and I was so afraid when I posted those things about him that it was going to hurt you. I can't tell you how Inspirational your response has been to me! You handled that with Such Grace and Maturity that I was awe struck! I pray that others will see your example and learn from it!
I'm very sorry to hear that you're having a bad day Ian and I will talk to our Father about that now! ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
Like I said:
Way to go HisGrace. ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
I may think that games are overdone on this board, but this board has always been for discusing what people felt led to discuss. If you dont like what is being discussed, no one bends your arm and makes you participate in any discussions and you are welcomed to start as many discussions as your heart desires.
Maybe things have changed around here I just was not aware.
I still think that it is anything but sensitive to another to try and say that what he feels led to post or talk about it unworthy of posting or talking about.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
I believe we need to hear this. My mom gets alot of her Preacing from T.V. She does not have a computer. If I do not stay informed, how will I protect her.
The problem here is not too much information, but people getting their feelings hurt when something is said about their fav Preacher. People take things way to personally.
I am trying so hard to be patient with people because I know it is hard to hear your fav Preacher is not perfect. But good grief, even Paul said he was not perfect. And I have yet to meet anyone as good as Paul, in my entire life.
Okay I am having a very bad day in my real life so I am leaving this post, but I wish that people would stop being mad at us. We did not go on T.V. and say all those things.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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HisGrace
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posted
Personally I believe it is way overdone for such a small board. We have been made well aware that Apostacy is about and have all of the necessary accessible tools to study it for ourselves.
However, in a democratic way, you have been given the option to disagree, and this is a golden opportunity to tell me I am wrong if that is your opinion.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I can hardly think of something in the name of sensitivity to members that could be any more insensitive than to try and rally a consensus to say that those who post on the apostacy feel that the Lord God calls them to post and talk about is not worthy of posting.
Way to Go HisGrace!
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HisGrace
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Considering that we should be sensitive to other members of the Board and that our own personal agenda shouldn't overtake the whole Board, do you think that perhaps we are being over-saturated with too much 'Apostacy?'
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