|
Author
|
Topic: Apostacy
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gatekeeper:
Well, I'm new around here and saw the word apostacy which caught my attention. Based on the results of the poll here, people like discussing false teachings. I love debating them as well. I believe it is the responsiblity of every Christian to share the Good News and that means that we sometimes have to step on some toes. Alot of false teachers out there do bring people to Christ, but it is in such a muddled way that I think these people are set up to fall away. For instance, if someone comes to a saving faith in Christ in a "name it and claim it" church and they don't get any of the stuff they are claiming, they might start to think God isn't real or that He isn't faithful. If I know someone is caught up in this and I don't say something - I have God to answer to.
Hi Gatekeeper! Welcome to the BBS!! I'm glad you came to check it out ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I'm sure you'll find Plenty of threads here (in various sections) that deal with this issue... it seems to be quite the HOT topic.
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
|
posted
Apostasy apostasy - it's everywhere.
It's like a deadly spiritual virus spreading and infecting the church.
People and churches have come to be comfortable, accepting and even desirous of it.
They are passing it on to others, some unknowingly, others willingly and gladly as a gift.
The problem is not these false teachers being everywhere, that is but the symptom.
If the masses didn't accept, welcome, and seek after the false teachers and prophets, they wouldn't be so numerous.
Here are a couple of the root problems I see
PEOPLE DO NOT WANT A FIRST HAND RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD
Exodus 20:19-21
(19)Then they said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die."
(20) Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin."
(21) So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was.
People want to stand at a distance from God.
They want the relationship thru others, second-hand.
They want their pastor, their favorite authors, the tv/radio preachers to tell them about God rather than experience Him for themselves.
They want to listen to/watch others worship God rather than worship Him themselves.
They are busy reading books about God, about faith rather than reading God's Living, Active, life giving, heart changing Word.
They are busy reading books about prayer rather than spending time in prayer.
They are watching and reading about missions and evangelism rather than going out and doing.
We have to STOP settling for a second hand relationship.
PEOPLE LACK DISCERNMENT
People can't discern between what's OF God and what’s USED by God.
There is a difference, a big difference brothers and sisters.
Just because God uses something to accomplish Hill will and purpose, doesn't mean it's of Him.
God used Sept 11 to bring people to faith in Him but it wasn't OF Him.
God has used The Purpose Driven Life to grow people’s faith in Him, but that doesn't make the book OF God or good.
God used the movie The Passion to accomplish His will in some people’s lives, but the movie was definitely NOT OF God as there were too many scriptural errors and fabrications in it.
We need to seek discernment from God, and differentiate between what's OF God and what's USED by God.
Then seek and use only what's OF God
False teachers use to be my soap box issue.
But God has shown me that it is not the problem, but just a symptom.
Here me correctly brothers and sisters, you CAN NOT cure sickness by attacking the symptoms.
You have to treat the problem.
At the Chapel I get allot of drivers in that are sold on Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Rick Warren and the likes.
My function is not to point out the false teachings (they will just get defensive, and not see the truth) but to show them in God's Word where they are responsible for what they believe.
I try to get them to trust God's Word rather than man's teaching.
I encourage and equip them to seek God first hand so that He can reveal truth to them where they will accept and embrace it.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
LaurieFL
Advanced Member
Member # 3794
|
posted
I think our highest calling is to preach the Way, the Truth, and the Life. If we make certain we are preaching the true gospel at all times to our loved ones in both what we say and we do, and if we make sure we post the true, undiluted gospel on this board or wherever we go, then we can be certain we are lviing up to our main calling, the Great Commission.
Pointing out error in teachings is important. Gently guiding loved ones or people we know away from possibly dangerous teaching is good, but we must fill the vaccum that remains with the pure, SIMPLE gospel of Jesus Christ.
I have also met people who I blieve are Christians who love Jesus Christ but who are so far gone into word of faith teachings, that while I gently let my thoughts on matters of "prosperity" and "health" be known and how I related those to the Bible, I also knew that I alone could never break these people away from beliefs they held so closely and that all I could do was plant the seed and then pray for them.
It is never our jobs to save anyone or to convict anyone. It is simply not Biblical. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit convicts mankind of sin, righteousness, and judgement, and also says that we are not to spend too much time thinking on what we shall say but are to lean upon the Holy Spirit who will give us the words when we need them and not before.
Posts: 700 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Gramajo320
Advanced Member
Member # 4667
|
posted
God knows exactly who His annoited ministers are and He also knows exactly who His annoited lay people are and He will give them all their rewards in heaven and that's just the way it is!
--------------------
Gramajo320
Posts: 2385 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Gatekeeper
New Member
Member # 4882
|
posted
Well, I'm new around here and saw the word apostacy which caught my attention. Based on the results of the poll here, people like discussing false teachings. I love debating them as well. I believe it is the responsiblity of every Christian to share the Good News and that means that we sometimes have to step on some toes. Alot of false teachers out there do bring people to Christ, but it is in such a muddled way that I think these people are set up to fall away. For instance, if someone comes to a saving faith in Christ in a "name it and claim it" church and they don't get any of the stuff they are claiming, they might start to think God isn't real or that He isn't faithful. If I know someone is caught up in this and I don't say something - I have God to answer to.
Posts: 6 | From: Colorado | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
Amen Betty. We are responsible for each other, and if one sees danger, then it would be irresponsible for him/her to keep silent and not warn the others. Not to mention very unLoving as well. To Love the Brethern (to me) means to care enough to point out danger (just as Jesus and the Apostles did). Some folks don't see this as being a part of Love, but it really is.
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
peh
I believe God uses people to do His Work. Many Preachers started out on the right path, but got mislead by power, greed, and popularity. Too many surround themselves with yes-men who agree with anything they say. When a Christian stays silent when they see the Gospel watered down and sugar-coated, in essences they are agreeing with this behavior.
A Christian must stand up for the truth of God's Word. We must not enable satan to do his work. Yes, I believe the devil can use a Christian. Have you not ever done or said something that is so wrong you fell on your knees in tears asking for forgiveness? Unfortunately the more powerful and the more popular the Preacher becomes, the less he is to listen to the little voice that says to them that what they said was wrong. Soon the little voice stops talking all together.
We as Christians will not be able to change people like Benny Hinn, but we can protect innocent sheep from being led astray by the likes of him.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
peh
Advanced Member
Member # 4446
|
posted
I posted: quote:
What room does this leave for God? Is the eye to take care of the Body? Or is God? Is it Christ's Body or the "parts of the body" Body? What if the eye doesn't recognize that misshapen patch for what it really is?
This is a recurrent message in many posts which declare that if one sees "apostacy" or "false teaching" it is that one's clear and present duty to Name It, else someone may be deceived who would have been a brother or sister had it not been for the wicked ones so named.
Speaking of seeing and speaking of what is seen.
You responded with : quote:
If we are not to See these things, then why does the Bible warn us about them?
If we are Not to Warn the Brethern, then Why does the Bible tell us to do so?
Something is not right here, and it's not God's Word.
Speaking of seeing and speaking of what is seen.
You added: quote:
...it was not “Addressed” to any individual, but as a comment to all.
Silly of me to think it was.
--------------------
St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by peh:
The posts I recently added here were in response to SoftTouch's post in which she wrote:
quote:
"If we are not to See these things, then why does the Bible warn us about them?"
What part of my post said we are not to see "these things"?
quote:
If we are Not to Warn the Brethern, then Why does the Bible tell us to do so?
What part of my post said we are not to "Warn the Brethern"?
quote:
Something is not right here, and it's not God's Word.
What do you suppose is meant by "Something"?
Let’s look at my post again:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
If we are not to See these things, then why does the Bible warn us about them?
If we are Not to Warn the Brethern, then Why does the Bible tell us to do so?
Something is not right here, and it's not God's Word.
These were two questions and one statement, and it was not “Addressed” to any individual, but as a comment to all.
Peh, you ask:
quote:
What do you suppose is meant by "Something"?
I think Sister Linda answered that Beautifully (better then I ever could have) in the above post
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
It appeared to me that your comment over on the second page was to the forum and not to a specific person or in response to a specific person. You used my statement in your post and so I commented it was difficult for me to understand how you arrived at your position as expressed in that particular post.
Peh says: quote:
It sounds as if you perceived my post as an "attack" on SoftTouch. I don't see that.
Since I did not perceive that your post was directed at Deb in any way, but at the thread in general as an offering of opinion, I would you have perceived something of me incorrectly. In fact, I had not read Deb's post but was drawn to your because it used a quote from mine. And I had seen it when it was ontop yesterday but did not have time to respond.
Peh says: quote:
What part of my post said we are not to see "these things"?
Is this directed to me? If it is I would say you have not said that any is not to see these things.
Peh says: quote:
What part of my post said we are not to "Warn the Brethern"?
If this is directed at me, then I would say that in the post that I was responding to I felt that you implied this by saying this:
Peh said: quote:
There is an underlying message in this part of your post that points out, at least to my mind, why I cannot agree with most of the Apostacy, heresy, "false teaching" posts. I chose your statement, HFHS, because it does so in a clear way, but there have been many other such statements that I could have used as well.
Ok, the body has cancer and the eye is needed to see it, you say. And if the "eyes dont share with the rest of the body pretty soon the whole body will die".
What room does this leave for God? Is the eye to take care of the Body? Or is God? Is it Christ's Body or the "parts of the body" Body? What if the eye doesn't recognize that misshapen patch for what it really is?
This is a recurrent message in many posts which declare that if one sees "apostacy" or "false teaching" it is that one's clear and present duty to Name It, else someone may be deceived who would have been a brother or sister had it not been for the wicked ones so named.
There is a basic problem with such outlooks and it is that there is no room for God to be the One to lead His own children out of any deception they might encounter. Nor for the Holy Spirit to be the One Who leads those in Christ into all truth. It is also a kind of undervaluing of the power of Christ to draw all people to Himself in spite of the worst that the world, the flesh, whether in the church or out, and the devil can throw in their paths.
Which says to me that you feel that if one believes this: quote:
if one sees "apostacy" or "false teaching" it is that one's clear and present duty to Name It,
Then they do this:
quote:
It is also a kind of undervaluing of the power of Christ to draw all people to Himself in spite of the worst that the world, the flesh, whether in the church or out, and the devil can throw in their paths.
To which my post to you comments that it is difficult to understand that you see this in this regard, Peh.
I realize that this below is posted to Deb, but I would like to say something in this regard:
quote:
There is a stream of disagreement in the posts about the "teachers" and "ministers" as to whether they are, as one side proclaims, "false teachers" or as the other maintains, they are either not at all "false teachers" or that while they may occasionally say things that are hard to fit into some posters' reading of Scripture, that doesn't make them "false teachers".
Personally, I believe that if this had been the stream of disagreement, this would have been a positive thing - as this BBS is for the discussing of different opinions in this regard. This kind of disagreement would have likely sent all parties to the scripture to test what was being claimed as false - or why it was being claimed as false and all might have learned something. But I do not at all see that this was the discussion or the topic of disagreement;having read these threads going back to March, I find that the disagreement has been whether or not it was right to post them or not in the first place or question them or not in the first place, and in fact, this very thread began as an effort to show that their value was of no value to the majority of people here.
Peh says: quote:
But so far as I am concerned, any disagreement I have with such posts is entirely about the overemphasis on the need for "Warners" to protect God's people from being deceived and not seeing the Holy Spirit of God being given the proper respect for His duty and ability to "lead us into all truth". And no, I don't think He needs any human agency at all to do that, though He may choose to use some.
This "overemphasis" as you have called it IMO has come as a direct result of those who entered the threads for the purpose of questioning the posters correctness in speaking about what God had laid on their hearts to speak about. I do however agree with you that it is not necessary for one to defend himself as a poster of something God has laid upon his heart to post on, but I will also say that when the issue becomes then "is it right to speak against these things" then who is to say that the poster is not then led to show in the scripture why it is correct to speak about these things?
Which is what it now seems to me that you are doing when you call this an overemphasis.
I would also agree that God does not need a human agency, but it is very clear to me scripturally speaking that he does make a habit of choosing and using one.
Peh says: quote:
Nor do I see high regard for God's role in keeping our souls intact, Who proclaims not one of His own will be lost, nor snatched out of His Hand.
I have to agree with you here because I do believe that the soul is kept in tact by the sealing of the Holy Spirit unto redemption.
I do however have great concern for the souls that sit in church pews every day that do not have this sealing though they think that they are saved. I have had the experience of knowing people that have sat on church pews for 20+ years looking, sounding and acting like Christians, professing to love the Lord Jesus and serve him, active in the church, who have come forward and confessed that though they had through that they were saved for a long time, they now realize that they had not been born again.
I also have a concern for what I see as those today who are being drawn to false gospels that cannot save them and told that they are saved... the apostasy that is rampant in the world of "church goers today is in my opinion creating those who are "lost in church" and for them it is in my opinion a matter of their eternal souls.
In reference to my comment: "then I cannot see how I have to information necessary to claim that it is not God's message or that Frank didn't hear it or wasn't doing exactly what God told him to do when he spoke it." in the above post, Peh says:
quote:
And where in any of my posts has this been "claimed"? And if it is "claimed" elsewhere, and that is what you are actually referring to, why do you put it in a post you head with reference to my post? It sounds as if you perceived my post as an "attack" on SoftTouch. I don't see that.
It was part of an general analogy in which I tried to illustrate what I see happening by those who have spoken against those who feel led to post on these issues of Apostasy. A summary or synopsis of how I see the situation. If the shoe does not fit then do not try to put it on Peh. In no place did I claim that you had said this. It was an illustration of how I see things to show why I have a difficult time understanding how you have come to the conclusion that you came to in the previous post of yours that I was responding to.
I am saying to you Peh, I have difficulty understanding that you see these things as "not leaving room for God or devaluing the Spirit's work because I see things this way:
Linda sees things this way: quote:
I see that the Holy Spirit is in each body part and does minister to each individual body part; but that HE also ministers through each individual body part to the other body parts.
None of us receives anything that is of God until God causes us to be able to receive it.
If God causes Frank to see something and tells Frank to share it, this is the working of the Holy Spirit in Frank and through Frank, when Frank is obedient.
If God should desire someone to hear and receive what Frank has in obedience seen and spoken, then God will put that someone in the place to hear and with the heart to hear.
At this point, I do not see that this is the devaluing of the Spirit the allowing of the Spirit to work how HE wills in whom He wills.
I see that each of us has responsibility to hear and obey as the spirit speaks to us.
If I happen to be one that hears Frank speak and I do not receive his message there may be many reasons for this, but unless Frank's message is contradictory to God's word, then I cannot see how I have to information necessary to claim that it is not God's message or that Frank didn't hear it or wasn't doing exactly what God told him to do when he spoke it.
Which causes Linda to not be able to see things this way:
Peh Sees things this way: quote:
There is a basic problem with such outlooks and it is that there is no room for God to be the One to lead His own children out of any deception they might encounter. Nor for the Holy Spirit to be the One Who leads those in Christ into all truth. It is also a kind of undervaluing of the power of Christ to draw all people to Himself in spite of the worst that the world, the flesh, whether in the church or out, and the devil can throw in their paths.
I do not know who said these things:
- too many in the Church want to tell Christians to shut up and let false preachers lead folks right to hell.
- God allows us to choose whether we will stand up for the truth of God's Word or if we will sit silent by while false preachers deceive thousands and thousands of people all for profit. I choose to raise the banner high ...
- If this is not your calling, then you need to examine if you are a born-again believer in Jesus Christ, as it is the calling of every believer to up hold the truth.
- I'd rather not ingest the Poison that's served along with that meat you're talking about.
But there is not one that I disagree with.
Peh says: quote:
Sounds like Rottwieler words to me!
I used to breed Rottwielers and know them to be very loyal, obedient, and loving animals who when trained and directed by a loving master are one of the best working dogs you could ever want to own. They will defend their master and their master's territory to their own death; they are one person dogs and are usually obedient to one person; they are jealous dogs and do not like anyone to try and harm their master or come between them and their master. They are not by nature aggressive toward people, but are extremely territorial.
They make excellent pets and I have a wonderful picture of one of our Rotties, a very large 140 lb animal named Oden, taking a single French fry from the hand of my 18 month old daughter with his lips so as not to nick her tiny fingers with his teeth.
But this same dog, if you walk into the room with the intention of harming that child, I guarantee you that that same animal would know it before you ever opened your mouth or walked near to my child and he would place himself between you and my child and remain there. If you tried pass by him to come near to my child, he would put you in fear of your person but not aggress against you, and if persisted and you raised your hand to her, he would have been on you like white on rice and you might not have a hand left to raise against someone else.
And yet in the frenzy of such an attack, at the sound of a single word from my mouth.... "Oden, ouse" he would release you. "Oden, Platz" he would lay down beside you as calmly as if you had been the one with French fry a few moments before.
Rottweilers are excellent animals. Rottweilers have a bad reputation because people buy them and own them and exploit them for their own egotistical reasons and then speak against them for having the traits that are theirs from birth, traits that make them to be fine loyal hard working reliable, predictable, and dependable animals under the training and direction of the right master.
So, if these words above sound like Rottweiler words to you, then I will take that as a compliment. I have raised 4 different breeds of working dogs and Schutzhund trained 2 breeds and I find Rottweilers to be the most excellent of them.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
Peh,
If you saw a person standing in the road, with a car speeding toward them, would you think it was none of your business? Or would you run screaming out to the person?
I think it is even more important for Christians to speak up when they see and hear preachers/teachers leading souls astray with false teachings. I think it is every Christian's responsibility to speak up for the truth of the Gospel. God gave us His Holy Word, to judge the teachings of today with. We are not working in the dark on this. If the person's words do not line up with the truth in God's Words, then he/she is a preaching falsely. It is the job of every Christian to stand up and expose false preachers/teachers.
Why have those of us that have stood up for the truth here on this board, been fought tooth and nail over this? It is because, it is the desire of the devil to stop the truth from getting out. Not everyone who preaches in the name of Jesus is a child of God. Am I second guessing who is a Christian? No, that is God’s job, BUT we can judge the words that come out of a preacher/teacher’s mouth. If the words do not line up with the Bible, the teaching is false, NOT the Bible.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
peh
Advanced Member
Member # 4446
|
posted
The posts I recently added here were in response to SoftTouch's post in which she wrote:
quote:
"If we are not to See these things, then why does the Bible warn us about them?"
What part of my post said we are not to see "these things"?
quote:
If we are Not to Warn the Brethern, then Why does the Bible tell us to do so?
What part of my post said we are not to "Warn the Brethern"?
quote:
Something is not right here, and it's not God's Word.
What do you suppose is meant by "Something"?
I tell you, "something is wrong" in our having to defend what we say as if we had to give account for it to other posters, particularly when the point of the post is either denigrated or ignored.
There is a stream of disagreement in the posts about the "teachers" and "ministers" as to whether they are, as one side proclaims, "false teachers" or as the other maintains, they are either not at all "false teachers" or that while they may occasionally say things that are hard to fit into some posters' reading of Scripture, that doesn't make them "false teachers".
But so far as I am concerned, any disagreement I have with such posts is entirely about the overemphasis on the need for "Warners" to protect God's people from being deceived and not seeing the Holy Spirit of God being given the proper respect for His duty and ability to "lead us into all truth". And no, I don't think He needs any human agency at all to do that, though He may choose to use some.
Nor do I see high regard for God's role in keeping our souls intact, Who proclaims not one of His own will be lost, nor snatched out of His Hand.
And of course He works through His people. His Body is for the supply of each member. And yes there is an eye, and a hand, and arms, etc. Our callings are different. But it is HE Who leads into all truth, and out of deception, just as it is HE Who saves, heals, and does all the other marvelous things He does.
You said quote:
I have to information necessary to claim that it is not God's message or that Frank didnt hear it or wasn't doing exactly what God told him to do when he spoke it.
And where in any of my posts has this been "claimed"? And if it is "claimed" elsewhere, and that is what you are actually referring to, why do you put it in a post you head with reference to my post? It sounds as if you perceived my post as an "attack" on SoftTouch. I don't see that.
What I do see is the following:
quote:
too many in the Church want to tell Christians to shut up and let false preachers lead folks right to hell.
And quote:
God allows us to choose whether we will stand up for the truth of God's Word or if we will sit silent by while false preachers deceive thousands and thousands of people all for profit. I choose to raise the banner high ...
And quote:
If this is not your calling, then you need to examine if you are a born-again believer in Jesus Christ, as it is the calling of every believer to up hold the truth.
And quote:
HisGrace, I'd rather not ingest the Poison that's served along with that meat you're talking about.
And quote:
(to SoftTouch) Probably why the devil was fighting you so.
Sounds like Rottweiler words to me!
--------------------
St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
Amen Sis and thank you I couldn't figure out how to put it into words. I think you said it quite well!
I hope that will help those who don't understand to see that we are Not denying God's Power in any way, but being Obedient to what the Lord has shown us and told us to do with it.
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
It is difficult for me to understand that you see this in this regard Peh. I see that the Holy SPirit is in each body part and does minister to each individual body part; but that HE also ministers through each individual body part to the other body parts.
None of us recevies anything that is of God until God causes us to be able to receive it.
If God causes Frank to see something and tells Frank to share it, this is the working of the Holy Spirit in Frank and through Frank, when Frank is obedient.
If God should desire someone to hear and receive what Frank has in obedience seen and spoken, then God will put that someone in the place to hear and with the heart to hear.
At this point, I do not see that this is the devaluing of the Spirit the allowing of the Spirit to work how HE wills in whom He wills.
I see that each of us has responsibility to hear and obey as the spirit speaks to us.
If I happen to be one that hears Frank speak and I do not receive his message there may be many reasons for this, but unless Frank's message is contradictory to God's word, then I cannot see how I have to information necessary to claim that it is not God's message or that Frank didnt hear it or wasn't doing exactly what God told him to do when he spoke it.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
peh
Advanced Member
Member # 4446
|
posted
The point is still missed. If a human "sees" a "cancer" the seeing still doesn't save the body. Only God is able to do that.
And you're right: It's not the Word, it's the undervaluing of the power of God and the Holy Spirit.
--------------------
St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
If we are not to See these things, then why does the Bible warn us about them?
If we are Not to Warn the Brethern, then Why does the Bible tell us to do so?
Something is not right here, and it's not God's Word.
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
True!, but God gives men and women free choice. We are not robots. God allows us to choose whether we will stand up for the truth of God's Word or if we will sit silent by while false preachers deceive thousands and thousands of people all for profit. I choose to raise the banner high and proclaim that God's Word is not to be sold as water-down and sugar-coated Gospel.
Much better to have a smaller Church then 100,000 people who are more interested in self than Jesus.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Gramajo320
Advanced Member
Member # 4667
|
posted
God is in control and He always will be in control.
--------------------
Gramajo320
Posts: 2385 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
There is a song that says "If we are the body, why aren't our arms moving?"
The Church is the body that God uses on earth. If God wanted to, He could do away with the body and preach Himself. But God chose to use the body. If the body sees a member preaching a false Gospel, we should speak up. No one thinks there is anything wrong when we speak up and warn people about bad food, air, etc., but too many in the Church want to tell Christians to shut up and let false preachers lead folks right to hell. ![[crying]](graemlins/crying.gif)
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
peh
Advanced Member
Member # 4446
|
posted
HFHS posted: quote:
We are a body and sin in the body is like cancer and if sin is seen by the eyes to be present in the arm and the eyes dont share with the rest of the body pretty soon the whole body will die,
There is an underlying message in this part of your post that points out, at least to my mind, why I cannot agree with most of the Apostacy, heresy, "false teaching" posts. I chose your statement, HFHS, because it does so in a clear way, but there have been many other such statements that I could have used as well.
Ok, the body has cancer and the eye is needed to see it, you say. And if the "eyes dont share with the rest of the body pretty soon the whole body will die".
What room does this leave for God? Is the eye to take care of the Body? Or is God? Is it Christ's Body or the "parts of the body" Body? What if the eye doesn't recognize that misshapen patch for what it really is?
This is a recurrent message in many posts which declare that if one sees "apostacy" or "false teaching" it is that one's clear and present duty to Name It, else someone may be deceived who would have been a brother or sister had it not been for the wicked ones so named.
There is a basic problem with such outlooks and it is that there is no room for God to be the One to lead His own children out of any deception they might encounter. Nor for the Holy Spirit to be the One Who leads those in Christ into all truth. It is also a kind of undervaluing of the power of Christ to draw all people to Himself in spite of the worst that the world, the flesh, whether in the church or out, and the devil can throw in their paths.
--------------------
St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
WOW! PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!
Watcher, Welcome to the BBS and THANK YOU for Expounding so well on God's Holy Word and it's Command for us to WARN the Brethern! That Was Excellent - I'm printing that one out!!!! Again - PRAISE GOD!!!!! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Amen Betty... Joel Osteen and Rick Warren need to be added to that list as well!
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
Sad to say, but you need to add Joel Osteen to that list. He has stopped preaching sin and started preaching self-improvement and self-empowerment. If man could have saved himself, then Jesus would not have died for our sins.
It breaks my heart to see preachers stop preaching the truth to attract bigger crowds.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Watcher
Advanced Member
Member # 3589
|
posted
Speaking Out Against False Teachers
Many think it is wrong to speak out against false teachers, or to warn Christians not to follow particular teachers because of their teachings. What does the Bible say about this?
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron...If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed" (1 Timothy 4:1-2,6).
Notice that Paul specifically exhorts that the brethren should be made aware of false teachings. Notice that he says "if you point these things out to the brethren, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus" (emphasis mine). So Paul is telling us that a "good minister of Christ Jesus" points out false teachings.
If that is not enough, how about "but there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovreign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping" (2 Peter 2:1-3). Here Peter warns us of the rise of false teachers within the church. But it is not without reason. Notice that the heresies they preach are "destructive" and that following them will "bring the way of truth into disrepute."
"But none of these verses mention specific teachers," you say? "Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to the faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme" (1 Timothy 1:18-20). "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth..." (2 Timothy 2:15-18).
Here Paul has mentioned false teachers by name, in order that they be warned, and others be warned of their false teachings, and with purpose. The men mentioned here, through their false teachings, have "blaspheme[d]" and "shipwrecked their faith." By their false teachings ("godless chatter"), they and those who follow them "become more and more ungodly." In order that they may become more godly, we must turn them away from these ungodly teachings.
How do we do this? Compare what the preachers teach to what the Bible says. Even Paul was not above having his teachings checked: "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true" (Acts 17:11). Who could teach the Scriptures more reliably than Paul?
Were the Bereans criticized for comparing his teachings to Scripture? No! On the contrary, they were commended for doing so. So why are those who question the teachings of some of the most popular preachers criticized?
Maybe this verse will help answer that question: "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths" (2 Timothy 4:3-4).
We cannot judge anyone's heart or their motives. We must be very careful in this matter. "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted" (Galatians 6:1). We must not be hypocritical or judgemental in our correction. We must, however, examine every teaching that comes from every teacher in light of Holy Scripture. Scripture itself exhorts us to do so when it says, "dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).
If I have not yet listed enough scripture warning against false teachers, then the following list of verses should help:
Matthew 7:15-23; Matthew 24:10; Mark 22:23; Acts 20:25-31; Romans 16:17-18; Galatians 1:6-9; Colossians 2:8,18-19; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1 Timothy 1:3-7; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 Timothy 4:1-8,16; 1 Timothy 5:3-10; 1 Timothy 6:20-21; 2 Timothy 2:14-18; 2 Timothy 3:1-9; 2 Timothy 4:1-5; Titus 1:9-16; 2 Peter 2:1-22; 2 Peter 3:14-18; 1 John 1:18-27; 1 John 4:1-6; 2 John 7-11; Jude 3-19
This is by no means a comprehensive list. Many others warnings exist in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Hopefully this has shown that, not only is it not wrong to confront and speak out against false teachers, but because of the spiritual devastation they cause, it is our obligation to Christ and the brethren to do so. Let me leave you with the words of the apostle Paul: "'I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears" (Acts 20:29-31).
Thank you for visiting
The Bible Page
http://www.thebiblepage.org/avoid/soaft.shtml
Teachers To Avoid
These teachers, preachers, and ministries all teach blasphemous and destructive heresies. Most have been told and/or warned, but continue to proclaim false teachings and promote others who do the same. Unfortunately, many sincere Christians are led astray by these teachers, and often suffer severe spiritual and emotional damage as a result. Not only should these teachers be avoided, but others, especially those who follow them, should be warned of their false teachings and "destructive heresies" as well.
(Partial listing)
For detailed list click on link:
http://www.myfortress.org/FALSETEACHERS.html
John Avanzini
Rodney Howard Browne
Charles Capps
Morris Cerullo
Kenneth and Gloria Copeland
Paul and Jan Crouch
Creflo Dollar
Jesse Duplantis
John Hagee
Kenneth Hagin
Marilyn Hickey
I. V. Hilliard
Benny Hinn
Bishop T. D. Jakes
Joyce Meyer
Frederick K. C. Price
Prophecy Club
Oral Roberts
Jerry Savelle
Robert Tilton
Trinity Broadcasting Network
Watcher ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
--------------------
Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
Excellent point Betty! Amen!
I worry especially for the New Believer who does not KNOW God's Word yet, or has only just begun reading it (or the person who can not read at all). How are they to be able to Discern if something a TV Preacher is saying is actually the truth? It takes a Long Time to truly Study the Bible and a Lot of Prayer for Discernment. You have to be Familiar with How to search the scriptures. The New Believer will not have acquired these skills. This is why it is So Important that there be "Watchers" who will Warn the Sheep when the Wolf is stalking them.
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
Speaking the truth about false Preachers and Teachers is not about changing them. Sadly most of them are so filled with pride that only a miracle from God can change them. Speaking the truth is all about protecting the innocent that can be mislead by them. There are those who's only Church is the internet and TV. If people do not reveal the truth, they will believe a person just because he has "Rev" in front of his name.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
Where does it say to look for someone preaching God's word and publicly drag them through the mud?
It does not, we do agree on something! I dont think anyone has advocated dragging any through the mud, just discussing issues and comparing what is popularly taught with scripture.
Actually I do agree with a great deal of what you have said, as I believe that it is the Holy Spirit that brings people to repentance and belief in Christ and not men. I believe that the spoken word of the true Gospel of Christ could be spoken from the mouth of a purple eguana (sp?)and it would bring slavation if that person were first drawn by the Father through the Spirit.
None of that however keeps me from believing that we should not practice all the other things that are part of this walk.
I also do agree that it is just fine to disagree on things. And I also agree that this board is an awesome place to learn.
I think however that the only one that has any intrest in our believing that who are born again Children of the Living God, filled with HIS Holy Spirit and possessing the mind of Christ, and the written word cannot hear, know, and clearly understand God's word exactly as God intends it to be understood, is the Devil himself. I cannot buy any part of that.
Sorry Homes, but I can get the last paragraph! Does the devil can or can’t understand Gods word.
--------------------
Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
quote:
Where does it say to look for someone preaching God's word and publicly drag them through the mud?
It does not, we do agree on something! I dont think anyone has advocated dragging any through the mud, just discussing issues and comparing what is popularly taught with scripture.
Actually I do agree with a great deal of what you have said, as I believe that it is the Holy Spirit that brings people to repentance and belief in Christ and not men. I believe that the spoken word of the true Gospel of Christ could be spoken from the mouth of a purple eguana (sp?)and it would bring slavation if that person were first drawn by the Father through the Spirit.
None of that however keeps me from believing that we should not practice all the other things that are part of this walk.
I also do agree that it is just fine to disagree on things. And I also agree that this board is an awesome place to learn.
I think however that the only one that has any intrest in our believing that who are born again Children of the Living God, filled with HIS Holy Spirit and possessing the mind of Christ, and the written word cannot hear, know, and clearly understand God's word exactly as God intends it to be understood, is the Devil himself. I cannot buy any part of that.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
I was just excited that I finally found that scripture lol
Where does it say to look for someone preaching God's word and publicly drag them through the mud?
I don't want to get into a discussion though because we disagree which is fine.
God's word brings life. No word spoken in the name of Jesus falls to the ground. As we have learned here in this forum, it's easy to misinterpret something that someone says, especially if it's found online on a site that could have twisted it which was already spoken.
See, I believe in power of the cross. I believe that God can and will use anyone that preaches his word whether it be Catholics (although few actually use the bible) or any other belief. God has the power to touch someone's life through any ministry. Even those we disagree with. Look at me, I wasn't taught anything about God I was only told He existed. Then I went to HIm in prayer and He started talking to me. So, if someone preaches a sermon God can use it to touch their lives and as that person grows I believe God can and will guide that person to the truth if they search for it. Look and ye shall find.
Just because you disagree with someone, who is to say that everything you believe is actually correct? Who is to say everything I believe is totally correct? Yet if we spend all of our time picking on each other because we disagree then we are wasting time that should be spent on God.
Anyway, either way I will go back to posting where I was because I find that there my focus is directed more toward learning and growing. I have learned quite a bit from people on this board already. I even learned a lot more about Apostasy since it's an area I choose to stay away from so this is good.
Love, Carmela
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Where does it say that these were feeding the sheep, building the church, preaching the Gospel, making disciples?
Where does it say that these were wolves dressed like sheep that sought to devour the sheep?
This were simply men that understood the power of the name of Jesus to cast out demons. Jesus does not care if someone uses the power of his name to cast out demons; deliverence is the childrens bread. You can use the name of Jesus to cast out demons any day of the week and that will be a good thing. It wont save you, but it wont either hurt the kingdom any.
These were like those that preached the gospel for personal fame - Paul said he did not care their motives were their own reputations - the Gospel was preached.
But you cannot fleece the flock to do it. You cannot lead the flock astray, or devour the flock; you cannot draw people to something that is not Christ, you cannot preach a false gospel, you cannot build a church that is not the church that Christ is building......if you do these things you are not for the flock. And if you are not for the flock, well then you are against the flock.
These are not for us......
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
The teachers that men who do not endure sound doctrine seek are not for us. And these below that bring Heresy into the church are not for us.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 ¶ And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
It is not for us to know who will be saved and who will not be saved.....we are not to even try and think about such a thing as this.
But we are supposed to judge sin in the body, call it sin, confront our brother with his sin that he might repent, apply church discipline if he does not.
We are supposed put sin out of the body and we are supposed to repent of our allowing those who hold doctrines of demons, doctrines of the Nicolaitans, and Doctines of Baalam to remain in the assembly; we are supposed to repent of allowing the spirit of Jezebel to teach, we are supposed to uphold sound doctrine ourselves, we are supposed to contend for the faith that was given to the spostles, we are supposed to speak those things that become sound doctrine, we are supposed to Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine, we are supposed to make disciples, we are supposed to build HIS church HIS way, keep his commands, love the brethren, feed the sheep, walk in the spirit, crucify the deeds of the flesh, live in covenant and not forsake the assembling of the body.
PS AMEN MAC! Good word brother!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
quote:
2 Corinthians 11:13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Regarding this verse:
quote:
Luke 9:49-50
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not : for he that is not against us is for us.
It does not say that this person who was casting out demons in Jesus' name was a False Teacher or False Prophet.
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
OH I got it. Wooooo Whhhooooooo Carmy dances around the room, shouting for joy, and gets all of you to join in the dance with her. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I have been looking for this on and off for a while now.
Luke 9:49-50
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not : for he that is not against us is for us.
(KJV)
I hope you don't mean to say that this one scripture cancels out all the others that have been referenced on False Teachers/Prophets etc.?
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
OH I got it. Wooooo Whhhooooooo Carmy dances around the room, shouting for joy, and gets all of you to join in the dance with her. I have been looking for this on and off for a while now.
Luke 9:49-50
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not : for he that is not against us is for us.
(KJV)
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
quote:
We are in a time that we most compare every teaching to the Word of GOD.
I do agree, I just don't agree with how it's done but it's ok to disagree sometimes.
quote:
Plus, no one ministries saved or give any person salvation!
You are right in a way. However, God sends them out to reap the harvest. It's our job to disciple them not cause doubt in their minds when someone they trust is being torn apart. I know I can't seem to get my point across which is probably my fault but I think publically putting others down is wrong. However, I also understand that you are all in agreement and are discussing what you believe. I respect that, I just hate to see people led away from God because they are confused by the message that led them to salvation in the first place and then the message they see here.
Either way, I love and respect you all as brothers and sisters so I choose not to let these topics hinder a Godly relationship with you. First love God, then your neighbor. The 2 greatest commandments.
Mark 12:30-31
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
(KJV)
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
Amen Miguel ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
We can do this without public slander.
Can someone please help me? See, I remember there is a scripture that says something about the disciples or someone going to Jesus and saying they are teaching in your name but not sent by you and He said something about, if the word is being taught, it won't be in vein. I only vaguely remember the scripture and I have been looking for it but I can't seem to find it.
I would really appreciate your help and I thank you in advance.
Love, Carmela
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
|
posted
We are in a time that we most compare every teaching to the Word of GOD. Plus, no one ministries saved or give any person salvation! That is only entirely of God alone.
Heb 4:12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
God indicates to us; actually He tells us to prove all things, that man in his nature goes saying many things? Yes that is his nature to corrupt and be a god unto it self. But God have by the Lord Jesus Christ have given us that which teach us about Apostasy.
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, saying to abstain from foods which God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
Not everyone that read the Word of God is bless by God or directed by God. The devil knows very well the Word of God and we know what is his end, so it is by the grace of God that we are not consume made partaker of the heavenly blessing having been inputted that which the Father have given to the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------
Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
Great post Carmela. I have done some soul-searching about how to handle such situations in the future. In the past I have given my opinion to protect certain preachers. However, everyone now knows how I feel about these preachers, so it is no longer necessary for me to provide input into those threads.
The Lord keeps reminding not to be part of an argumentive spirit, so in order to avoid any misunderstanding, it is best that I say nothing.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
|
posted
Personally, I think both sides have taken it too far.
As I said before, if someone is saved by a Joyce Meyers or BIlly Graham teaching them comes searching online for discipleship, the will start to question Christianity as a whole if they came and saw all of these put downs. So, in my opinion more harm has been done then good.
It is important to expose lies, but what is a lie? Only God knows for sure. We all differ so who are we to say that what God shows one person is definitely wrong? We don't know definitely, we only know according to what we believe.
However, I don't feel it's my place to keep criticizing other people's posts so to keep from getting upset, I choose to avoid those posts completely. I don't want that garbage cluttering my head and to me, it's merely garbage. To others, it's valuable. I heard this saying once: If you can't be a part of the solution, don't become a part of the problem...or something like that.
I don't have any favorite evangelists although I will some day be studying Joyce Meyer's more because God specifically told me I would have a ministry like hers. Actually, He said the day will come when she can't minister anymore and I will take her place. That is all the proof I need. I still don't know much about her but the times I have heard her speak I really liked it.
So my take is this. We need to all push this aside, avoid the posts we don't like and learn to love and accept others as they are. I don't feel it's my place to defend Billy Graham or anyone because God will do that. it isn't my place to drag them through the mud either. If people are wrong for running them down, only God can show them. Nothing we say will matter. We just need to take it to God and pray for each other, not verbally attack each other.
I feel it's time we all, both sides of the equation, put this to rest and focus where God would have us. For me, I want my focus to be on God alone and not worrying about Billy or others. It's God's place to deal with them not mine, and He will.
--------------------
www.pinecrest.org
Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
|
posted
Maybe this will say it better;
2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the eternal times.
--------------------
Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
WEll, I would not see that scripture as saying that Mac, but let me share with you a conversation I was having with God one day....
I was thinking on the this scripture:
Roman's 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
And I was thinking about this and about God, and about those who will say to him Lord Lord only to hear "I never Knew You." and I was telling him that if I were one who was chosen and molded by him to be a vessel of destruction, then I would just have to be that which he had molded me to be because I know that HE is God and I know that being GOd everything he does is perfect and there can be nothing better and so, I find that I just have to have faith that what ever it is that I am, I am because of HIS perfect wisdom and knowledge and way and I would have to trust in that even if this is what my lump of clay was molded to be. Even now this is hard for me to write, because none of us wants to be a vessel of Dishonour, but this is where I am. There is no other place for me to be because I know that HE is the only thing... the only one that I can trust, but I know that I know that I know that I can trust HIM.
And you know what he said to me, when I had finshed saying that to him?
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
I thought that was pretty awesome of HIM.
Man caan think himself saved and that will not save him, we are not saved by thinking.
Man can work his own work in the name of Jesus all day long for his whole life; but works even in the name of Jesus does not make us Children of the Living God. We are not saved by working.
Living and belieiving by faith in and of Christ makes us to be children of the Living God. We are saved by believing.
Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Amen?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
MAC I dont think that this is true that we know not who we are the wheat or the tares.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
I think that we better know who we are MAC; if we do not we are his sheep there is no way that we can know him and hear his voice.
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Remember what Jesus said of those that are born, Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Not that He have not show us in His word the fruits of a child of God but that not everyone that confesses Jesus Christ is born from above and that is where my point was we really don’t know. We can’t see the heart! But yet He gives us assurance in our spirit when we are born from above. There is a desire to do His will and sin grieves us when we sin, this grieve is different from the one the world have. One brings life the other destruction!
--------------------
Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
Good post, softouch! Probably why the devil was fighting you so.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
The Word of God (The Bible) was given to us that we may Know God/Jesus and Know what He approves of and disapproves of. It is our Sure and Straight Ruler which everything must be measured by.
In God’s Word there are many instructions on watching out for False Teachers and False Prophets and we’re told to Expose (Reprove) the False (Wicked, Evil).
The Body of Messiah (The Church) has many parts. All parts do not have the same function. There are those who are called to be watchers, those who are sensitive to Falsehoods. In this function they have an obligation to Warn the rest of the Body when they see Danger. I have to ask: Why does the Hand despise the Eye? The Eye has a different function then the Hand does, but both need each other to function fully. The Hand may not understand Why the Eye needs to constantly watch, but if the Eye does not Watch then the Hand may pick up something dangerous. Being that we are all part of One Body, are we not responsible for all the parts of the Body?
quote:
Romans 16: 17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Colossians 2:8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
2 Peter 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2 Timothy 4: 2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Ephesians 5: 6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
Ezekiel 3: 17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
(Boy I had a hard time getting this to post! For some reason I couldn't get the BBS to come up for quite a while?)
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Well I believe that we are given his written word because through it God has revealed himself to us through HIS Son.
So I guess HIS purpose in giving it would be the revelation of himself to us.
The purpose of it having been given in writing is so that when the enemy tempts us as he did Eve in the garden with a 1/2 truth, we can do what Jesus did and say "it is written." the fact that it is written helps to keep the enemy from being able to beguille us.
Additionally the writing of them makes them to become a legal document; the enemy Satan is not going to stand before God on judgement day and say I did not know... or you dis not say this you said that... it is written and it will stand over time.
Goats usually refer to the nations that are not sheep nations. God has given the opportunity for those who are not part of those who are called to covenant to find blessing through blessing His Covenant People; we see the sheep- Goat nations being judged and those who have blessed the brothers of Christ being given an opportunity in the Millennial reign to learn HIS statutes and come to eternal life.
The written word does enable us to recognize wolves and bad shepherds and not be led astray.
quote:
Still going with the above analogy, the bank teller who detects the counterfeit is not the one who arrests, tries, judges, and sentences the one "passing" the counterfeit currency.
The teller is the one to say that it is counterfeit however.
But Honestly, the above analogy is a little weak because the Teller in a bank is not a body. We are a body and sin in the body is like cancer and if sin is seen by the eyes to be present in the arm and the eyes dont share with the rest of the body pretty soon the whole body will die, because a. the cancer will spread to the other parts or b. the cancer will destroy the arm and the arm wont be able to get food to the mouth and the body will starve.
I am of the mind that our human nature causes us to think and act as if we can live and operate as we choose and have no effect on the body as a whole and this is not true.
We are not supposed to shoot the cyotes here in God's country, but I dont think that we can either leave them with the flock and call them Shetlands .
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
peh
Advanced Member
Member # 4446
|
posted
This was stated, "God has given us His Word in the Bible so that we can recognize the sheep from the goats. If we do not seek to tell the difference we will be led astray."
Question: Is that the central purpose of His giving His Word to us in writing? Or is it His purpose at all? This statement and others like it by other posters sound as if it is but on what is the statement based?
Is the purpose of our search of Scriptures to see if "it be so" in order that we can tell a false teacher from a truth teacher? Is it the Holy Spirit's task to lead us into all truth or ours?
Or is the purpose of our search to come to know the Reality for ourselves?
There is a story I've heard several times, and believe it to be true, that bank tellers are not given "false" money to handle in order to learn the difference between the real and the counterfeit but instead are trained by repeated handling of legitimate currency to discern the real, and therefore the counterfeit won't fool them since it won't "feel" right.
Nowdays, the pen and light are used which do an even better job than the human eye and hand. This is interesting since it involves "light" and the "light" of understanding is what we receive as we seek to know God.
Still going with the above analogy, the bank teller who detects the counterfeit is not the one who arrests, tries, judges, and sentences the one "passing" the counterfeit currency.
That is the job of those to whom the authority to do so belongs.
--------------------
St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
God has given us His Word in the Bible so that we can recognize the sheep from the goats. If we do not seek to tell the difference we will be led astray.
In my paper this morning, they bragged about an Episcopal that has "Queer Bingo" for those who are gay and bi-sexual. If you go by what the writer of this article said, you would think how wonderful. A church reaching out to gays and bi-sexuals and making them feel at home. The problem is not only do make them feel at home but they make them "comfortable" staying in there sins. Let's someone think I am prejudice, it is not only this sin that some preachers can make you comfortable with. There are preachers who know that a board member, who pays big tithes, sells cars and makes it a habit to cheat and lies to buyers. So the preacher doesn't preach on this for fear of losing that tithe money. Everyone should feel welcome in a Church but no one should be led to believe that they should be comfortable with choosing a lifestyle that is contrary to the Bible. The Church should be a hospital for the soul. You would not go to a doctor and he tell you that your leg is filled with gangrene, so I am going to give you a lot of pain medication so you can learn to live with this leg. No, he would say we got to remove this leg, or you will die. To often preacher see a person living in sin, and seek to make them feel good about it. This is wrong, period!
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
MAC I dont think that this is true that we know not who we are the wheat or the tares.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
I think that we better know who we are MAC; if we do not we are his sheep there is no way that we can know him and hear his voice.
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
|
posted
What we need to remember is that the body of believer is not a building but a group of people professing that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior. In this body the Lord tells us that there is wheat and tares it is no surprise that this gathering have the attributes of Apostasy! We read in Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. We need to see this thing with spiritual eyes for the times are increasing with sin as God is permitting them. This verse reflects our brother in the past (OT) but it is more at this present time, Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. This is because God is giving man what he really wants (sin)(lust)(greed)ect.. The Lord tells us that judgment (will) begging with the house of God and if it beggings with us what hope the rest shall have? Many of you can relate with this verse, Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Is it not that the life of many are according to this verse? Or should we protect that which He have said it will destroy first. Can we comprehend when God tells us that His judgement will begging with His people! And why? You and I know the answer to this according to what He has teach us in His word.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
I pray to God that I my self am ready with His wonderful grace for we know not who really are the wheats and who are the tares.
May the Lord have mercy with our souls!
--------------------
Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Well I am 100% a believer in the eternal security of the born again child of God, but I see that there are many that have belief that does not set down roots that can "fall away"; those roots I see as the sealing and indwelling of the Holy Spirit that only occurs in re-generation. Many have what I call head and not heart belief. But I wonder of those is it really Christ that the belief was in in the first place or what they or someone else made Christ to be in their minds.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
I have a hard time grasping it myself. Simply because, I am somewhere in the middle of once saved always saved. Is it possible to get saved and lose your salvation? I honestly don't know. I do know it is possible to go in the ministry when you are not called by God. My son's best friend's mom made him preach as a child even though he tried to tell her over and over that he was not called by God. Is it possible for a Christian preacher to be saved themselves and lead people astray? I honestly don't know.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
