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Author Topic: Sin and Salvation ! ?
wincam
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is Rmns.5:12 really true and should and must be accepted - wincam
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Carol Swenson
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Yes. I think of it this way: Adam was like a pure, clean glass of water. His sin was like black ink poured into that water, staining both the water and the glass. When any of that stained water is poured into another clean glass, that water and that new glass are also stained. So Adam's sin was like that black ink, staining human nature, and everyone born since Adam and Eve are stained with sin.

But verse 15 is also true

But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

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wincam
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Carol - Rmns 5:12 is not really true or correct - the correct answer is as at Gen 2:6 and 1Timothy2:14 - wincam
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Carol Swenson
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Of course it is true and correct. We can't pick and choose what to believe in the Bible. All of it is the Word of God.

Adam was formed immediately by God, as was the human nature of Christ; in each the nature was holy; both were invested with dominion over the earth and its creatures ( Psalm 8).

In contrast, Adam and Christ were each a federal head to the whole race of mankind, but the one was the fountain of sin and death, the other of righteousness and life (Romans 5:14-19)

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wincam
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Carol - it seems you have not understood what I am saying - wincam
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Carol Swenson
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Okay, what are you saying? You referenced Genesis 2:6, a verse about mist rising from the ground.

I am assuming you meant 3:6. That verse and 1 Timothy 2:14 are about Eve being deceived and committing the first sin.

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wincam
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sorry - indeed that was my mistake and it has not helped - it should have been 3:6 - wincam
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Carol Swenson
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[hug]

But you still need to say what you started to say about 3:6 and all.

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wincam
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Carol - the devil quick as a flash realised Man,s fatal flaw and Achilles heel and took advantage of it - later the woman said yes to God and not the devil which was very good - wincam
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Carol Swenson
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Among all the trees in the Garden of Eden, there were two very special trees. The Tree of Life, and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God warned Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, saying he would die. Eve was created after God's warning to Adam.

Genesis 2:15-18 (NASB)
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." 18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

Now, God did not have to put that tree in His garden. God did not have to allow Satan, as a serpent, to be there. God is omniscient so He KNEW that the tree and the serpent would mean that He would one day be crucified as a man born under the Law.

God created us to share a loving relationship with us. He is our Father. But love by it's very nature cannot be compelled, it must be freely given and received. So he gave Adam a free choice. Eve was deceived, but Adam chose freely and knowingly to disobey God.

You seem to be suggesting that Eve was Adam's weakness. Was it love? Was it lust? Was it trust? Did he heroically sacrifice himself so Eve would not be alone in her doom?

When God questioned him about it, Adam said

Genesis 3:12 (NASB)
12 The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.

He blamed her. It was Adam's free choice to listen to Eve instead of God. When he chose to eat that fruit, he was still an unfallen pure creation. But afterwards, the fallen man blamed her.

God didn't let him get away with it.

Genesis 3:17 (NASB)
17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.

If only Adam had said "NO". If only Eve had begged for forgiveness. If only people would accept responsibility for their own behavior and stop blaming others...

When Paul wrote Romans he knew what he was talking about.

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wincam
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so when Paul wrote 1Timothy2:14 he didn't know what he was talking about - wincam
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by wincam:
so when Paul wrote 1Timothy2:14 he didn't know what he was talking about - wincam

Sure he knew what he was talking about. You need to read the entire bible and study it. Not just pull out a verse and try and twist it.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. ~ 1 Timothy 2:14

Adam was not deceived, he knew what he was doing wrong but followed Eve in her sin, and plunged the human race into sinfulness. Eve was the one that was deceived.


A woman's subordinate role did not result after the Fall as a cultural, chauvinistic corruption of God's perfect design; rather, God established her role as part of His original creation (1Ti_2:13). God made woman after man to be his suitable helper (see note on Gen_2:18; cf. 1Co_11:8-9). The Fall actually corroborates God's divine plan of creation (see notes on Gen_3:1-7). By nature Eve was not suited to assume the position of ultimate responsibility. By leaving Adam's protection and usurping his headship, she was vulnerable and fell, thus confirming how important it was for her to stay under the protection and leadership of her husband (see notes on 1Ti_5:11-12; 2Ti_3:6-7).

Adam then violated his leadership role, followed Eve in her sin, and plunged the human race into sinfulness—all connected with violating God's planned roles for the sexes. Ultimately, the responsibility for the Fall still rests with Adam, since he chose to disobey God apart from being deceived (Rom_5:12-21; 1Co_15:21-22).


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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by wincam:
is Rmns.5:12 really true and should and must be accepted - wincam

YES it is really true. The entire bible is true. Some just like to twist what it is saying by taking it out of context.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: ~ Romans 5:12

The statement is so true and one best believe it and act upon it. Asking Jesus Christ to pay your sin dept, if not you will be judged GUILTY on judgement day. No other way can your sin dept be paid but by Jesus.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. ~ John 14:6


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wincam
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sin entered the world through one woman[EVE]and salvation through one woman[MARY] - wincam
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Carol Swenson
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wincam, maybe this is what you are thinking.

Early Christians taught that the Annunciation marks the reversal of the temptation of the first Eve. In the Garden, Eve believed the lies of a fallen angel, disobeyed God and so became the cause of Adam's Fall (Genesis 3:1-7). At the Annunciation, Mary believed the words spoken by a holy angel, obeyed God and so became the Mother of the One who would save us from Adam's Fall. Mary's obedience reversed Eve's disobedience; thus Mary is the New Eve for the New Creation in Christ.

This should not be confused with Adam's deliberate sin, or Christ providing salvation to mankind.

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Ablorba
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Speaking of Mary. St. Bernard de Clairvaux in the 1200s instigated Mary worship for the Catholic Church. This guy started the 2nd crusade for which he is blamed. He was very austere and many people followed him because they were impressed with his long fasts, long hours praying and studying alone, etc. He actually became pope and king of France for a short time. This guy was unloving, and he was not above twisting Mary's reputation into a goddess for his own political machinations. This is but one of many examples when men took advantage of their mixed-up ideas about women to gain advantage.

--Sacramento Pine

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wincam
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Sacremento Pine - I am not at all certain you are praising since it sounds more like castigating the Christian crusades and that he was the first to show that it is not in the bible and it is a later day Protestant addition, innovation and heresy about Mary - rely on facts and do not be carried away by falsity and your own opinion and imagination - wincam
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Carol Swenson
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We can all admire Mary for her devotion and her strength, and for her role in God's plan for salvation. But Mary was human and we do not worship humans, or pray to them.

It is our Lord Jesus Christ who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, who is the only begotten Son of God, who died for our sins, and it is Him we worship.

Ephesians 2:4-7 (NASB)
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

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