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Author Topic: Election
Carol Swenson
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That is a very interesting argument, but I can't agree on several points.

quote:
The angels that left their first estate were the sons of God who went after flesh that was strange to them:
Angels are spiritual beings; they are immortal and do not procreate. In Genesis 18, they ate food and touched people, but that does not prove that they are capable of procreating. Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit, but God can create life, Satan cannot create life. Angels cannot create life. Angels do not have genetic material to pass on to offspring - they are spiritual beings, not biological. It would be possible for a man who was possessed by a demon to procreate, but the genetic material would be the man's normal human genetics.

Matthew 22:30 (NASB)
30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

quote:
In fact, these half-Adams were no more savable than the chaff of the plant that produces wheat.
God does not discriminate because of race. We are saved by grace through faith. There is evidence of giants, and photos of modern day giants, but these people are anomalies the same as very small people are anomalies, and no more evil than anyone else. (See photos below)

Genesis

Though they bore the same name, Lamech in the line of Seth was radically different from Lamech in the line of Cain (4:18-24). Seth's Lamech fathered a son, Noah, who walked with God (6:9) and was used of God to save the human race and continue the messianic promise. Cain's Lamech murdered a young man who had wounded him and then boasted to his wives about his evil deed.

Hope (5:28-32). Lamech's great concern was that mankind find comfort and rest in the midst of a wicked world where it was necessary to toil and sweat just to stay alive. Life was difficult, and the only hope that true believers had was the coming of the promised Redeemer. Lamech named his son Noah, which sounds like the Hebrew word for "comfort." His prayer was that his son would somehow bring to the world the rest and comfort that people so sorely needed. Centuries later, weary people would hear the voice of Jesus say, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11:28, NKJV).

Lamech was 682 years old and Noah 500 years old when Noah's son Japheth was born. The listing in Genesis 5:32 is not the sons' birth order, because Ham was Noah's youngest son (9:20-24) and Japheth his eldest (10:21). The birth order would be Japheth, Shem, and Ham.

Compromise (6:1-7). After chapter 3, Satan isn't mentioned by name in Genesis, but he and his demonic hosts are at work doing their utmost to keep the promised Redeemer from being born. This was Satan's purpose throughout all of Old Testament history. After all, he didn't want to have his head crushed by the Savior! (3:15) God had declared war on Satan and the deceiver intended to fight back.

One of Satan's most successful devices is compromise. If he can delude God's people into abandoning their privileged position of separation from sin and communion with God, then he can corrupt them and lead them into sin. He did this to Israel in the land of Moab (Num. 25; Ps. 106:28-31) and also after they had conquered the land of Canaan (Judges 2; Ps. 106:34-48). The prophets warned the Jewish people not to compromise with the idolatrous worship of the pagans around them, but their warnings weren't heeded; and the nation experienced shameful defeat at the hands of their enemies.

What was Satan's plan for defeating God's people in Noah's day? To entice the godly line of Seth ("the sons of God") to mix with the ungodly line of Cain ("the daughters of men") and thus abandon their devotion to the Lord. It was the same temptation that Christians face today: be friendly with the world (James 4:4), love the world (1 John 2:15-17), and conform to the world (Rom. 12:2), rather than be separated from the world (2 Cor. 6:14-7:1). Of course, this could lead to being "condemned with the world" (1 Cor. 11:32). Lot is an example of this danger (Gen. 13; 19).

Some interpreters view 6:1-7 as an invasion of fallen angels who cohabited with women and produced a race of giants. But as interesting as the theory is, it creates more problems than it solves, not the least of which is the union of sexless spirit beings with flesh and blood humans. Even if such unions did occur, could there be offspring and why would they be giants? And how did these "giants" (Nephilim, "fallen ones") survive the Flood (v. 4; Num. 13:31-33), or was there a second invasion of fallen angels after the Flood?

The term "sons of God" does refer to angels in Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; but these are unfallen angels faithfully serving God. Even if fallen angels could make themselves appear in human bodies, why would they want to marry women and settle down on earth? Certainly their wives and neighbors would detect something different about them and this would create problems. Furthermore, the emphasis in Genesis 6 is on the sin of man and not the rebellion of angels. The word "man" is used nine times in verses 1-7, and God states clearly that the judgment was coming because of what humans had done. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth" (v. 5).

The 120-year limit expressed in verse 3 probably refers to the years until the Flood would come. God is long-suffering with lost sinners, but there comes a time when judgment must fall. During that "day of grace," Noah prepared the ark and gave witness that judgment was coming (2 Peter 2:5), the same message Enoch had given during his lifetime (Jude 14-15). God gave His message in the mouth of two witnesses, but the people wouldn't listen.

The word "giants" in Genesis 6:4 (KJV) is a translation of the Hebrew word nephilim which means "fallen ones."[Strong's Exhaustive Concordance = bully, tyrant]. Some who follow the "angel theory" of chapter 6 make the nephilim the fallen angels whose children became great leaders. As we've already seen, if these nephilim were angels with human bodies, then they either survived the Flood (because the Hebrew spies saw them in Canaan; Num. 13:31-33), or there was a second invasion of "fallen angels" after the Flood. Both ideas seem incredible.

The most likely interpretation of Genesis 6:4 is that God saw the people of that day as "fallen ones," while men saw these people as mighty leaders. Even today, much of what is admired by the world is rejected by the Lord (Luke 16:15). When the Sethites compromised by mingling with the Cainites, they fell from God's blessing. God was grieved that they married godless Cainites, choosing wives as they pleased without considering God's will (Gen. 6:2). In doing this, they endangered the fulfillment of the 3:15 promise; for how could God bring a Redeemer into the world through an unholy people? The people of that day "married and were given in marriage" (Matt. 24:37-39) and thought nothing of the warning that Enoch and Noah gave about the coming judgment. Human history was now at the place where only Noah and his family—eight people—believed God and obeyed His Word. God's Spirit was striving with lost people, but they resisted the call of God; and God was grieved at what man was doing.

Read Romans 1:17ff for a description of what civilization was like in those days. Man's wickedness was great, every imagination of all his thoughts was only evil continually, so it was no surprise that God chose to send judgment.

Grace (v. 8). The only way people can be saved from God's wrath is through God's grace (Eph. 2:8-9); but grace isn't God's reward for a good life: it's God's response to saving faith. "By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household" (Heb. 11:7, NKJV). True faith involves the whole of the inner person: the mind understands God's warning, the heart fears for what is coming, and the will acts in obedience to God's Word.

To understand God's truth but not act upon it is not biblical faith; it's only intellectual assent to religious truth. To be emotionally aroused without comprehending God's message isn't faith, because true faith is based on an understanding of the truth (Matt. 13:18-23). To have the mind enlightened and the heart stirred but not act in obedience to the message is not faith, for "faith without works is dead" (James 2:14-26). The mind, heart, and will are all involved in true biblical faith.

Everybody who has ever been saved from sin has been saved "by grace, through faith," and this includes the Old Testament worthies listed in Hebrews 11. Nobody was ever saved by bringing a sacrifice (Heb. 10:1-4; Ps. 51:16-17), by keeping the Law (Gal. 2:16), or by doing good works (Rom. 4:5). Salvation is a gracious gift that can be rejected or received by faith. Like Noah, we must all "find grace in the eyes of the Lord" (Gen. 6:8).


Jude

The fallen angels (v. 6). We studied this illustration in 2 Peter 2:4, but Jude seems to add a new dimension to it by associating the fall of the angels with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 7, "even as... in like manner"). Some Bible students believe that Jude was teaching not only a revolt of the angels against God, but also an invasion of earth by these fallen angels. They point to Genesis 6:1-4 and claim that "the sons of God" were fallen angels who assumed human bodies, cohabited with the daughters of men, and produced a race of giants on the earth. This was one reason that God sent the Flood.

As attractive and popular as this view is, I must confess that I have a difficult time accepting it. It is true that "the sons of God" is a title for angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), but always for unfallen angels. Would the Holy Spirit, writing through Moses, call rebellious angels "the sons of God"? I doubt it.

My second problem is that angels are spirits and do not have bodies. In the Old Testament record, we do read of angels who appeared in human form, but this was not incarnation. How could a spirit being have a physical relationship with a woman, even if that being assumed a temporary body of some kind? Our Lord taught that the angels were sexless (Matt. 22:30).

Third, it appears that God sent the Flood because of what man did, not what angels did. "My Spirit shall not always strive with man... . And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth.... And it repented [grieved] the Lord that He had made man on the earth" (Gen. 6:3, 5-6, italics mine). If this "fallen angel" view is correct, God should have repented that He created the angels!

Fourth, the phrases "even as" and "in like manner" in Genesis 6:7 need not be interpreted to say that the angels did what the Sodomites did, namely, "going after strange flesh." Notice the grammatical connections in the verse, and you will get the message: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah... in like manner ... are set forth for an example." The angels are an example of God's judgment and so are Sodom and Gomorrah.

I might add that Genesis 6:4 presents a strong argument against the view that fallen angels cohabited with women and produced a race of giants. "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that' (italics mine). This would mean that a second invasion of fallen angels had to take place! We have no record of this in Scripture.

Finally, both Peter and Jude state clearly that these rebellious angels are chained in darkness and reserved for judgment. They would have to have invaded the earth prior to being arrested and chained by God. We wonder why God would have permitted them to "run loose" long enough to get the women into sin and help to cause the great Flood. The whole explanation, though held by teachers whom I respect, to me seems a bit fantastic. The simplest explanation of Genesis 6 is that the godly line of Seth ("the sons of God") began to mingle with the ungodly line of Cain, and this broke down the walls of separation, resulting in compromise and eventually degrading sin. But regardless of which interpretation you accept, keep the main lesson in mind: the angels rebelled and were punished for their rebellion.

Sodom and Gomorrah (v. 7). Both Peter and Jude state that God made these cities an example to warn the ungodly that God does indeed judge sin (see 2 Peter 2:6). When you combine their descriptions, you discover that the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah (and the other cities involved) were: ungodly, filthy, wicked, unlawful, unjust, and given over to fornication. They did not occasionally commit unnatural sexual sins; they indulged in them and gave themselves over to the pursuit of lust. The Greek verb is intensive: "to indulge in excessive immorality." This was their way of life—and death!

Strange flesh means "different flesh." The bent of their life was constantly downward, indulging in unnatural acts (see Rom. 1:24-27). Those who hold the "fallen angel" interpretation of Genesis 6 make the "strange flesh" refer to angels in human form; but when did the angels invade Sodom and Gomorrah? And, if fallen angels are meant, how can their sin and the sin of the Sodomites apply to us today, for we have no fallen angels to tempt or seduce us? Indeed, the men at Lot's door did want to engage in homosexual activity with his angelic guests, but the Sodomites did not know they were angels. Another possibility is that the Sodomites were guilty not only of unnatural sex with each other, but also with animals, which would be "strange flesh." Both homosexuality and beastiality are condemned by God (Lev. 18:22-25).

Bible Exposition Commentary

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Robert Wadlow, Age 22, 8 feet 11 inches

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Jyoti Amge, Age 14, 1 foot 11 inches

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scythewieldor
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quote:
(5) That unconditional election also necessarily implies the determinate number of the elect, a point that Calvinists hold, though they admit that they have for it no explicit teaching of Scripture. To the contrary, the Scriptures not only generally but particularly teach that the number of the elect can be increased or diminished. This is the purport of all those passages in which sinners are exhorted to repent, or believers warned against becoming apostate, or to “make certain about His calling and choosing you” (Matthew 24:4, 13; 2 Peter 1:10; etc.).
One thing I wish both sides would take into account is that
quote:
Gen 6:1-4 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Jude 6&7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them committed a sin in like manner as the angels who left their first estate; they gave themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh.
The angels that left their first estate were the sons of God who went after flesh that was strange to them: Adam's daughters. In other words, children began to be born who were completely outside of Adam's predestined-for-dominion line: illegitimate half-Adams.
It is recorded of Noah that he was perfect in his generations. He was an Adam full-blood. The same is not said of his wife, his sons, or his sons wives. If any (or, all) of those who survived the flood with Noah were mixed-blood hominids, then mingled seed remained in the gene pool the salvation of which God was not obligated or interested.
In fact, these half-Adams were no more savable than the chaff of the plant that produces wheat.

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
The point I’m making is that the elect are bought, not the false prophets and false teachers.
To say that Christ only bought the elect is a misunderstanding of the situation.

Everything, and everyone, was created through Christ (John 1:1-3). The domain of darkness is Satan’s spiritual corruption of God’s creation. Satan cannot create, he only corrupts what God has already created.

Man was given dominion over the earth (Genesis 1:28). When Adam sinned against God, Adam no longer had dominion over the earth. He had given dominion over to Satan and corrupted human nature, so now we have the domain of darkness. But dominion is not ownership, dominion is only management.

God already owns everything and everyone, that’s why disobedience is a sin, and why God is the judge. Christ’s sacrifice satisfied God’s law concerning sin and death, and provided salvation for His entire world; He provided rescue from the domain of darkness. Christ’s sacrifice defeated sin, Satan, and death. Christ's sacrifice overcame Adam's sin.

But just as Adam was given a choice, so is everyone.

Man knows both good and evil. God tells man to do what is good, Satan tempts man to do what is evil. While Satan corrupts all he can, it is still God’s world. His plan of redemption continued in spite of Satan, and it continues today.

“The Light shines in the darkness” (John 1:5). Satan’s domain of darkness now has a Light shining in it, and man only needs to come to the Light to be forgiven and saved from Satan’s corruptive influences.

It's true that Satan endeavors to turn people away from the truth, but it's also true that the power of the Holy Spirit is in the Word and the Believers when the lost hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

quote:
This is speaking of temporal salvation, not eternal salvation.
The title "Savior of all men" does not imply that everybody will be saved (universalism), but it doesn’t just mean temporal salvation. It means that Christ was not Savior only of Jews, but of all men everywhere. Paul added "especially of believers" because it is grace through faith in Christ that saves us (Eph. 2:8-10). Since God "will have all men to be saved" (1 Tim. 2:4), and since Christ "gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim. 2:6), then any lost sinner can trust Christ and be saved. Christ is "the Savior of all men," so nobody need despair. He is the Light of life shining in the darkness that anyone can come to.
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Bloodbought
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Have a nice time. Talk to you again.

God bless.

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Carol Swenson
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1 John 4:14
We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Bloodbought, I'm going to be gone for a couple of days. Hope we can talk more when I get back. God bless.

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Bloodbought
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The point I’m making is that the elect are bought, not the false prophets and false teachers.

"The Lord who bought them" refers back to “the people” in 2 peter 2:1. These people were elect members of the church, but false prophets who were neither bought or elect were bringing in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

quote:
Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
This is speaking of temporal salvation, not eternal salvation. God saves unbelievers often times from death. He provides for them and sustains them and grants to them all the temporal privileges that believers enjoy.

But God saves those that believe in a special way,
Luke 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, And from the hand of all that hate us;

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Carol Swenson
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Bloodbought, I'm not sure what point you're making. ALL of the epistles were written to believers.

The Bible uses various names for believers:

The Elect, the Saints, the Church, Believers, Beloved, the Firstfruits, the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, the Lamb’s Wife, the Holy City and New Jerusalem.

1 Timothy 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 Peter and 2 Peter do not prove Unconditional Election, if that is your point. The false teachers were purchased, along with the rest of the world, but they rejected Christ and so were not regenerated believers.

The precious blood of Christ purchased salvation for everything, not just a small part of mankind. All of nature, all of mankind, the whole world, everything.

Colossians 1:19-20
19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

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WildB
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Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

--------------------
That is all.....

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Bloodbought
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The books of first and second Peter were written to the elect.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

There were false prophets also among the elect who were purchased by the blood of Christ.
The elect were purchased, but the false teachers denied the Lord who bought them. They tried, if possible, to draw the elect away from the faith but they belonged to the Lord because He bought them.

The elect were receiving this warning to encourage them in their faith.

2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
So Christ didn’t purchase salvation for the lost, He only made salvation a possibility?

Synonyms for salvation are:

Deliverance
Recovery
Rescue
Escape

If you pay for someone's rescue or escape but they refuse to go, that doesn't mean the payment wasn't made.

The kingdom of darkness is not a place that sinners are sent to. It's a spiritual condition where they already are. Christ provided the way out, the escape, the salvation for everyone. But if some people refuse to escape, refuse to come to the Light, then they will remain there both in this life and the hereafter.

Colossians 1:13
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Did Christ purpose by coming into the world to make provision for the salvation of all people, realizing that some would reject the provision made? Because some reject does not invalidate the provision or mean that the provision was not made for them. If we say that a father provides sufficient food for his family, we do not exclude the possibility that some members of that family may refuse to eat what has been provided. But their refusal does not mean that the provision was made only for those who actually do eat the food. Likewise, the death of Christ provided the payment for the sins of all people—those who accept that payment and those who do not. Refusal to accept does not limit the provision made. Providing and possessing are not the same.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

When it comes to application, our Lord's atonement is limited to those who believe. But when it comes to efficacy, His death is sufficient for the whole world. He purchased even those who reject Him and deny Him! This makes their condemnation even greater.

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Carol Swenson
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I did.
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Bloodbought
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I don’t think we said much about the atonement.
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Carol Swenson
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Did we not both post articles on Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility?
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Bloodbought
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quote:
If a Passover lamb was sacrificed and the Passover meal prepared, but a sinful son refused to attend the meal when his Father invited him, of what benefit was the sacrificed lamb to that son?

Our sins are forgiven when we repent and receive Christ as our Lord and Savior. We must come to the Light. We must accept the invitation and come to His feast.

So Christ didn’t purchase salvation for the lost, He only made salvation a possibility?

If Christ paid for the sins of all men, why do some sinners have to pay for their own sins?
That would be two payments for one debt.

How do you interpret these verses?
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

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Carol Swenson
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If a Passover lamb was sacrificed and the Passover meal prepared, but a sinful son refused to attend the meal when his Father invited him, of what benefit was the sacrificed lamb to that son?

The offer was made, but the son refused.

Our sins are forgiven when we repent and receive Christ as our Lord and Savior. We must come to the Light. We must accept the invitation and come to His feast.

Universal Salvation is a false doctrine.


Luke 14:16-24 (NASB)
16 But He said to him, "A man was giving a big dinner, and he invited many; 17 and at the dinner hour he sent his slave to say to those who had been invited, 'Come; for everything is ready now.' 18 "But they all alike began to make excuses. The first one said to him, 'I have bought a piece of land and I need to go out and look at it; please consider me excused.' 19 "Another one said, 'I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to try them out; please consider me excused.' 20 "Another one said, 'I have married a wife, and for that reason I cannot come.' 21 "And the slave came back and reported this to his master. Then the head of the household became angry and said to his slave, 'Go out at once into the streets and lanes of the city and bring in here the poor and crippled and blind and lame.' 22 "And the slave said, 'Master, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.' 23 "And the master said to the slave, 'Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled. 24 ~'For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste of my dinner.'"

2 Corinthians 5:20 (NASB)
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

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Bloodbought
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I see no difference in the moderate Calvinism chart you posted and Arminianism.
As in the moderate Calvinism chart Arminianism affirms that the atonement is unlimited in scope in that the offer of salvation is for all men.

You said,
“I know people like to ask the question that if Christ died to atone for the sins of all men, then does that mean that there are people in hell who had their sins atoned for?

But Jesus answered that question in John 3. Some will come to the Light, come to Him, and some will not, but the Light has come to the world for all. It shines, and does not suddenly go dim if someone "not elect" comes near.”

But if Christ atoned for all the sins of all men and rejecting Him is a sin, why are all not saved?

Did He not atone for the sin of rejecting Him?

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John 3:14-21 (NASB)
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."


I'm not an Arminian or a Calvinist. But I agree with the Moderate Calvinist beliefs on the chart I posted. It seems that everywhere I look different people have different definitions and different beliefs. That chart is just one definition, but those are the beliefs I hold no matter what label they fall under.

I know people like to ask the question that if Christ died to atone for the sins of all men, then does that mean that there are people in hell who had their sins atoned for?

But Jesus answered that question in John 3. Some will come to the Light, come to Him, and some will not, but the Light has come to the world for all. It shines, and does not suddenly go dim if someone "not elect" comes near.

Original sin brought judgment on all the world. Those who reject Christ are indeed judged already, from Eden, but by believing in Him we pass from death into life.

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Bloodbought
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Since you are an Arminian of sorts, let me ask you this.

Did Jesus pay the penalty for every single person who ever lived, or did He suffer for every single person, without actually paying his or her penalty?

Secondly.
If Jesus did pay the penalty for every single person in the whole world, then why isn’t every single person saved?

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I hope you had a chance to read the post above this one. According to this chart, you are an Extreme Calvinist. Most Bible teachers, theology books, Bible handbooks, etc., teach Moderate Calvinism.

Concerning Irresistible Grace, saving faith results in regeneration, not the other way around.


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Thanks for fixing it.

Okay, so none of us can deny the fact that throughout the Old Testament and throughout the Gospels many people believed who were not yet regenerated, not born again spiritually. They did not have a new nature, yet they believed.

God spoke directly to the key people in His plan of redemption, but He spoke through those people to others.

In this Age of Grace, His word and His people are His voice, both of them empowered by the Holy Spirit.

John 16:7-11 (NASB)
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

It was necessary for Jesus to explain why it was important for them that He return to the Father.

The major reason, of course, is that the Holy Spirit might come to empower the church for life and witness. Also, the ascended Saviour would be able to intercede for His people at the heavenly throne of grace. With all of their faults, the disciples dearly loved their Master; and it was difficult for them to grasp these new truths.

It is important to note that the Spirit comes to the church and not to the world. This means that He works in and through the church. The Holy Spirit does not minister in a vacuum. Just as the Son of God had to have a body in order to do His work on earth, so the Spirit of God needs a body to accomplish His ministries; and that body is the church. Our bodies are His tools and temples, and He wants to use us to glorify Christ and to witness to a lost world.

Sometimes we hear people pray, "Lord, send Your Spirit to speak to the lost! May the Spirit go from heart to heart." Such praying is no doubt sincere, but is it biblical? The Spirit does not "float" in some ghostly way seeking to win the lost. The Holy Spirit works through the people in whom He lives. When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost, He empowered Peter to preach; and the preaching of the Word brought conviction to those who heard.


The key word here is reprove (John 16:8). It is a legal word that means "to bring to light, to expose, to refute, to convict and convince." It could be translated "pronounce the verdict." The world may think that it is judging Christians, but it is the Christians who are passing judgment on the world as they witness to Jesus Christ! Believers are the witnesses, the Holy Spirit is the "prosecuting attorney," and the unsaved are the guilty prisoners. However, the purpose of this indictment is not to condemn but to bring salvation.

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of one particular sin, the sin of unbelief. The law of God and the conscience of man will convict the sinner of his sins (plural) specifically; but it is the work of the Spirit, through the witness of the believers, to expose the unbelief of the lost world. After all, it is unbelief that condemns the lost sinner (John 3:18-21), not the committing of individual sins. A person could "clean up his life" and quit his or her bad habits and still be lost and go to hell.

The Spirit also convicts the sinner of righteousness, not unrighteousness. Whose righteousness? The righteousness of Jesus Christ, the perfect Lamb of God. The world would not receive the Son of God (John 1:10), so He has returned to the Father. When He was here on earth, He was accused by men of being a blasphemer, a lawbreaker, a deceiver, and even a demoniac. The Spirit of God reveals the Saviour in the Word and in this way glorifies Him (John 16:13-14). The Spirit also reveals Christ in the lives of believers. The world cannot receive or see the Spirit of God, but they can see what He does as they watch the lives of dedicated believers.

The Spirit convicts the lost sinner of judgment. Do not confuse this statement with Acts 24:25 ("of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come"). Jesus was referring to His judgment of Satan that was effected by His death on the cross (John 12:31). Satan is the prince of this world, but he is a defeated prince. Satan has already been judged and the verdict announced. All that must take place is the executing of the sentence, and that will occur when Jesus returns.

When a lost sinner is truly under conviction, he will see the folly and evil of unbelief; he will confess that he does not measure up to the righteousness of Christ; and he will realize that he is under condemnation because he belongs to the world and the devil (Eph. 2:1-3). The only person who can rescue him from such a horrible situation is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. There can be no conversion without conviction, and there can be no conviction apart from the Spirit of God using the Word of God and the witness of the child of God.

Witnessing is a great privilege, but it is also a serious responsibility. It is a matter of life or death! How we need to depend on the Holy Spirit to guide us to the right persons, give us the right words, and enable us patiently to glorify Jesus Christ.

Bible Exposition Commentary - Be Transformed (John 13-21).

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Bloodbought
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Thank you,
Sorry about that.

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Carol Swenson
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The link you used stretched this page out of shape.

Would you use this link instead?

http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0398.htm

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Bloodbought
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quote:
Mark 8:29
And He continued by questioning them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ."

The parallel passage in Matthew says,

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Just as we cannot communicate with our earthly father until we are born, neither can we communicate with our heavenly father until we are born-again.

The New Nature

June 30th, 1861
by
C. H. SPURGEON
First, we have said that every life is prefaced by rib birth. It is so naturally—we are born; it is so spiritually—we are born again. Except a man be born he cannot enter into the kingdom of nature; except a man be born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. Birth is the lowly gateway by which we enter into life, and the lofty portal by which we are admitted into the kingdom of heaven.

Now there is a comparison between the two births; in both there is a solemn mystery. I have read, I have even heard sermons, in which the minister seemed to me rather to play the part of a physician than of a divine, exposing and explaining the mysteries of our natural birth, across which both God in nature and the good man in delicacy must ever throw a veil. It is a hallowed thing to be born, as surely as it is a solemnity to die. Birthdays and deathdays are days of awe. Birth is very frequently used in Scripture as one of the most graphic pictures of solemn mystery. Into this, no man may idly pry, and Science herself, when she has dared to look within the veil, has turned back awestricken, from those "lower parts of the earth" in which David declares us to be "curiously wrought." Greater still is the mystery of the new birth. That we are born again we know, but how, we cannot tell. How the Spirit of God openeth upon the mind, how it is that he renews the faculties and imparts fresh desires by which those faculties shout be guided, how it is that he enlightens the understanding, subdues the will, purifies the intellect, reverses the desire, lifts up the hope, and puts the fear in its right channel, we cannot tell, we must leave this among the secret things which belong unto God. The Holy Ghost worketh, but the manner of his operation is not to be comprehended. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but thou canst not tell whence it cometh nor whither it goeth, so is every one that is born of the Spirit." Oh! my hearers, have you felt this mystery? Explain it you cannot, nor can I, nor ought we to attempt an explanation, for where God is silent it is perhaps profanity, and certainly impertinence for us to speak. The two births then are alike in their solemn mystery.

But, then, we know this much of our natural birth, that in birth there is a life created. Yonder infant is beginning his being, another creature has lifted up its feeble cry to heaven, another mortal has come to tread this theater of action, to breathe, to live, to die. And so in the new birth, there is an absolute creation, we are made new creatures in Christ Jesus, there is another spirit born to pray, to believe in Christ to love him here, and to rejoice in him hereafter. As no one doubts but that birth is the manifestation of a creation, so let no one doubt but that regeneration is the manifestation of a creation of God, as divine, as much beyond the power of man, as the creation of the human mind itself.

But we know also that in birth there is not only a life created, but a life communicated. Each child hath its parent. The very flowers trace themselves back to a parental seed. We spring, not from our own loins, we are not self-created, there is a life communicated. We have links between the son and the father, and back till we come to father Adam. So in regeneration there is a life, not merely created, but communicated, even the very life of God, who hath begotten us again unto a lively hope. As truly as the father lives in the child, so truly doth the every life and nature of God live in every Swiss born heir of heaven. We are as certainly partakers of the divine nature by the new birth as we were partakers of the human nature by the old birth: so far the comparison holds good.

Equally certain is it, that in the natural and in the spiritual birth there is life entailed. There are certain propensities which we inherit, from which this side the grave we shall not be free. Our temperament brave or gay, our passions slow or hasty, our propensities sensual or aspiring, our faculties contracted or expansive are to a great measure an entailed inheritance as much linked to our future portion as are wings to an eagle or a shed to a snail. No doubt much of our history is born within us, and the infant hath within himself germ of his future actions. If I may so speak, there are those qualities, that composition and disposition of nature which will naturally, if circumstances assist, work out in full development certain results. So is it with us when we are born again: a heavenly nature is entailed upon us. We cannot but be holy; the new nature cannot but serve God, it must, it will pant to be neater to Christ, and more like him. It hath aspirations which time cannot satisfy, desires which earth cannot surfeit, longings which heaven itself alone can gratify. There is a life entailed upon us in the moment when we pass from death unto life in the solemn mystery of regeneration.

In the old birth, and in the new birth also, a life is also brought forth which is complete in all its parts and only needs to be developed. Yon infant in the oracle shall never have another limb, or another eye. Its limb hardens, it grows, it gathers strength, its brain also enlarges its sphere, but the faculties are there already, they are not implanted afterward. Verily, so is it in the new-born child of God. Faith love, hope, and every grace are there the moment he believes in Christ. They grow 'tis true, but they were all there in the instant of regeneration. The babe in grace who is just now born to God, hath every part of the spiritual man, it only needs to grow till he becomes a perfect man in Christ Jesus.

Quote taken from,
http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0398.htm

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Carol Swenson
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There is no new nature until the Holy Spirit regenerates someone.

The Holy Spirit did not come to regenerate people until Pentecost after the resurrection.

The Apostles and many other people believed in Christ during His earthly ministry, long before Pentecost.

Therefore, people believe and accept Christ before they are regenerated and receive the new nature.

Mark 8:29
And He continued by questioning them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ."

It should be noted that there had been other confessions of faith prior to this one. Nathanael had confessed Christ as the Son of God (John 1:49), and the disciples had declared Him God's Son after He stilled the storm (Matt. 14:33). Peter had given a confession of faith when the crowds left Jesus after His sermon on the Bread of Life (John 6:68-69). In fact, when Andrew had brought his brother Simon to Jesus, it was on the basis of this belief (John 1:41).

John 12:42
Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;

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Bloodbought
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quote:
In some inexplicable way God has seen fit to incorporate human freedom and responsibility into His all-inclusive plan. Even though the Lord is in sovereign control of the details in His creation, He never forces any man to do anything against his will. The fact that He judges sin means that He is not responsible for the commission of the sins He judges. When a person sins it is because he has freely chosen to do so. Similarly, when someone is confronted with the terms of the gospel, he can freely choose to accept or reject Christ’s offer of forgiveness of sins. Because it is free choice, he will be held responsible for the decision he makes (see John 12:48).
I have very little quarrel with your post except to modify the last part of the above quote as follows.

Because it is free choice, he will be held responsible for the decision he makes whither he chooses to reject Christ according to his old nature or, believe and accept Christ according to his new nature. (see John 12:48).

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
I believe that the two great doctrines of human responsibility and divine sovereignty have both been brought out more prominently in the Christian Church by the fact that there is a class of strong-minded, hard-headed men who magnify sovereignty at the expense of responsibility; and another earnest and useful class who uphold and maintain human responsibility oftentimes at the expense of divine sovereignty. I believe there is a need for this in the finite character of the human mind, for the natural lethargy of the Church requires a kind of healthy irritation to arouse her powers and to stimulate her actions.
Gotta love Spurgeon! He got into hot water more than once from his hyper-Calvinist peers.

Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility are both taught in God's Word. Any doctrine that emphasizes only one side of this mystery will be unbalanced. That's why Calvinism is unbalanced - it emphasizes only one side of this mystery. I should say hyper-Calvinists because the original doctrine has been modified many times, and moderate-Calvinists are not so extreme or unbalanced.

For what it's worth, I debate just as hard against legalists, and against people who think grace is a license to sin, and gnostic gospels, and any unbiblical extreme.

God has revealed to us in the Bible that He not only created all things but He also preplanned everything that would happen in His creation. He both knows everything that has happened and everything that is yet future. He actively decreed every detail of this reality, and He is sovereign over all.

But here is where the mystery comes in: even though God is sovereign, man still has real responsibility and freedom in the choices he makes. These choices are his; he cannot blame God for them. And they will genuinely affect and modify the rest of his life.

Thus the biblical doctrine of salvation perfectly combines divine sovereignty and human responsibility. God must call and men must respond willingly. This is a unique picture, for only in Christianity is God declared to be the initiator and author of salvation. The only thing we can do is respond by receiving Christ’s free offer.

A person standing outside the “gate of heaven” sees the inscription “Whosoever will may come!” Passing through and looking back he sees written on the other side, “Chosen before the foundation of the world!”

Because of the sovereignty of God in salvation, everyone who has trusted Christ for the forgiveness of sins can have assurance of salvation. This certainty comes from the fact that salvation is neither obtained nor maintained by human effort. Since no one deserves it or earns it, eternal life must come by grace through faith. Nevertheless, God will never force anyone to believe in His Son. Free will is still a reality, and all of us are responsible for accepting or rejecting the revelation we have received.

God’s complete control over His creation is based on His omniscience and omnipotence. Since God has knowledge of all things actual and possible, His eternal plan is not based upon blind choice. Instead, God has wisely chosen a plan in which all details will finally work together to bring about the greatest good (the glorification of God). Since God is the absolute of truth, goodness, and love, His plan is a reflection of His own being and nature.

In some inexplicable way God has seen fit to incorporate human freedom and responsibility into His all-inclusive plan. Even though the Lord is in sovereign control of the details in His creation, He never forces any man to do anything against his will. The fact that He judges sin means that He is not responsible for the commission of the sins He judges. When a person sins it is because he has freely chosen to do so. Similarly, when someone is confronted with the terms of the gospel, he can freely choose to accept or reject Christ’s offer of forgiveness of sins. Because it is free choice, he will be held responsible for the decision he makes (see John 12:48).

In biblical terms this whole mystery can be summed up by saying that God is both King and Judge. “Scripture teaches that, as King, He orders and controls all things, human action among them, in accordance with his own eternal purpose. Scripture also teaches that, as Judge, He holds every man responsible for the choices he makes and the courses of action he pursues.”

The general divine sovereignty/human responsibility mystery can be applied in a specific way to the nature of salvation. From the standpoint of God’s sovereignty, a person is saved because he is elected by God (chosen for salvation). But from the standpoint of our responsible freedom, a person is elected because he receives Christ.

The first truth finds support in a number of biblical passages. For instance, the apostle Paul writes of the power of God “… who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but on his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began …” (2 Tim. 1:9).

Paul also wrote, “… because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.” (Rom 8:29-30).

Here in Romans 8 the pattern is clearly seen: God foreknew who would believe, these He predestined, called, justified, and glorified.

The two truths of this mystery (one believes because he is elect and he is elect because he believes) are sometimes side by side in the same passage. John 6 is an example. Divine sovereignty is emphasized in verses 37, 44, and 65: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him …” (v. 44). Human responsibility is emphasized in verses 29, 35, 40, and 47: “For this is the will of my Father – for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life …” (v. 40).

In part from
https://bible.org/article/divine-sovereignty-vs-human-responsibility

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Bloodbought
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God's Will and Man's Will

March 30th, 1862

by

C. H. SPURGEON
1834-1892

“It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.”--Romans 9:16
“Whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.”--Revelation 22:17



The great controversy which for many ages has divided the Christian Church has hinged on the difficult question of “the will.” Without a doubt that conflict has done much harm to the Christian Church, but I will also say, that it has been loaded with immeasurable usefulness; for it has thrust forward before the minds of Christians, precious truths, which without it, might have been kept in the shade. I believe that the two great doctrines of human responsibility and divine sovereignty have both been brought out more prominently in the Christian Church by the fact that there is a class of strong-minded, hard-headed men who magnify sovereignty at the expense of responsibility; and another earnest and useful class who uphold and maintain human responsibility oftentimes at the expense of divine sovereignty. I believe there is a need for this in the finite character of the human mind, for the natural lethargy of the Church requires a kind of healthy irritation to arouse her powers and to stimulate her actions. The pebbles in the living stream of truth are worn smooth and round by friction. Who among us would wish to suspend a law of nature whose effects on the whole are good? I glory in that which at the present day is so much spoken against-sectarianism, for “sectarianism” is the jargon phrase which our enemies use for all firm religious belief. I find it applied to all sorts of Christians; no matter what views he may hold, if a man is earnest, he is quickly labeled a sectarian. Success to sectarianism, let it live and flourish, for the day it ceases then we can say farewell to the power of godliness.

When each of us cease to maintain our own views of truth, and to maintain those views firmly and strenuously, then truth will fly away, and only error will reign: this, indeed, is the objective of our foes: under the cover of attacking sects, they attack true religion, and would drive it, if they could, off the face of the earth. In the controversy which has raged-a controversy which, I again say, I believe to have been really healthy, and which has done us all a vast amount of good-in this controversy mistakes have arisen from two reasons. Some brethren have completely forgotten one category of truths, and then, in the next place, they have gone too far with others. We all have one blind eye, and too often we are like Admiral Nelson in the battle, we put the telescope to that blind eye, and then complain that we cannot see. I have heard of one man who said he had read the Bible through thirty-four times on his knees, but could not see a word about election in it; I think it very likely that he couldn’t; kneeling is a very uncomfortable posture for reading, and possibly the superstition which would make the poor man perform this penance would disqualify him for using his reason: moreover, to go through the Bible thirty-four times, he probably read in such a hurry that he did not know what he was reading, and might as well have been dreaming over “Robinson Crusoe” as the Bible. He put the telescope to the blind eye. Many of us do that; we do not want to see a truth, and therefore we say we cannot see it.

On the other hand, there are others who push a truth too far. “This is good; oh! this is precious!” they say, and then they think it is good for everything; that in fact it is the only truth in the world. You know how often things are injured by too much praise; how a good medicine, which really was a great treatment for a certain disease, comes to be utterly despised by the physician, because a certain quack has praised it as being a universal cure; so exaggerated praise in a specific doctrine leads to dishonor. Truth has thus suffered on all sides; on the one hand brethren refuse to see the truth, and on the other hand they magnified what they do see way out of proportion. Have you seen those mirrors, which when you walk up to them, you see your head ten times as large as your body, or you walk away and put yourself in another position, and then your feet are monstrous and the rest of your body is small; this is an ingenious toy, but I am sorry to say that many approach God's truth using the model of this toy; they magnify one basic truth until it becomes monstrous; they minimize and speak little of another truth till it becomes completely forgotten. In what I say this morning you will probably detect the failing to which I allude, the common fault of humanity, and suspect that I also am magnifying one truth at the expense of another; but I will say this, before I proceed further, that it will not be the case if I can help it, for I will honestly endeavor to bring out the truth as I have learned it, and if you believe that I am teaching you what is contrary to the Word of God, reject it; but be aware, if it is according to God's Word, then reject it at your peril; for once I have delivered it to you, if you do not receive it, then the responsibility lies with you.

Read more,
http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0442.htm

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Betty Louise
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I don't believe Calvisim is abandoning the faith.
To me abandoning the faith is preaching:
1. All roads lead to Heaven.
2. God and Allah are the same
3. Jesus is just a good teacher
4. God has changedn His mind about homosexuality
5. God wants us all to be rich
Just to mention a few.

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Carol Swenson
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When people actually read my posts, they know that isn't true. I don't agree with Total Depravity or Election or any of TULIP. That doesn't mean I ignore God.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
“COME TO ME, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and LEARN FROM ME” (Matthew 11:28)

Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. (John 7:37)

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. (John 6:35)

The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. (Revelation 22:17)

Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:13)

And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 2:29-31)

What you posted here is true, but again it is not all scripture taken together. It is unbalanced and not the full picture. If you won’t listen to the videos, that’s up to you. I listen to all scripture, everything. If you only listen to select verses, you end up with a distorted picture. We should approach scripture with an opened mind and with no preconceived ideas. Only then will the Holy Spirit reveal the truth. There are two players in the complete canon, God and man. You focus on man and what he is supposed to do by himself. What about what God does? You seem to completely ignore what God does, why?
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Carol Swenson
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All scripture is true. It is illuminated by the Holy Spirit as we study it.

I won't listen to the videos. Calvinism is based on certain scriptures, not all scripture taken together. It is unbalanced, and untrue. Like most dangerous doctrines, it contains enough truth to be convincing, but essentially it is false.

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Bloodbought
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Those videos are not by John Calvin. All they do is present scripture on the topic you started.
You should listen and judge for yourself whither it is true or false.

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John Calvin was just one man, a law student, born 1500 years after Christ. His theory is based on his personal interpretation of scripture. I have no reason or desire to listen.

God’s Spirit specifically tells us that in later days there will be men who abandon the true faith and allow themselves to be spiritually seduced by teachings of the devil, teachings given by men who are lying hypocrites, whose consciences are as dead as seared flesh. (1 Timothy 4:12)

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Bloodbought
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Please listen.

Total Depravity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXBqXw8ChhI

Unconditional Election
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfyU1rF0Wcc

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RESPONDING TO THE GOSPEL

What kind of response does the gospel require?

To all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. (John 1:12)

The gospel requires a response of faith in Christ. All who welcome Jesus Christ as Lord of their lives are reborn spiritually, receiving new life from God. Through faith in Christ, this new birth changes us from the inside out—rearranging our attitudes, desires, and motives. Being born makes you physically alive and places you in your parents' family (John 1:13). Being born of God makes you spiritually alive and puts you in God's family (John 1:12). Have you asked Christ to make you a new person? This fresh start in life is available to all who believe in Christ.

Jesus replied, "People soon become thirsty again after drinking this water. But the water I give them takes away thirst altogether. It becomes a perpetual spring within them, giving them eternal life." (John 4:13-14)

The gospel requires a response of acceptance. The woman mistakenly believed that if she received the water Jesus offered, she would not have to return to the well each day. She was interested in Jesus' message because she thought it could make her life easier. But if that were always the case, people would accept Christ's message for the wrong reasons. Christ did not come to take away challenges, but to change us on the inside and to empower us to deal with problems from God's perspective.

The woman did not immediately understand what Jesus was talking about. It takes time to accept something that changes the very foundations of your life. Jesus allowed the woman time to ask questions and put pieces together for herself. Sharing the gospel will not always have immediate results. When you ask people to let Jesus change their lives, give them time to weigh the matter.

As [Paul] reasoned with them about righteousness and self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was terrified. "Go away for now," he replied. "When it is more convenient, I'll call for you again." (Acts 24:25)

The gospel requires a personal response. Paul's talk with Felix became so personal that Felix grew fearful. Felix, like Herod Antipas (Mark 6:17-18), had taken another man's wife. Paul's words were interesting until they focused on "righteousness and self-control and the judgment to come." Many people will be glad to discuss the gospel with you as long as it doesn't touch their lives too personally. When it does, some will resist or leave. But this is what the gospel is all about—God's power to change lives. The gospel is not effective until it moves from principles and doctrine into a life-changing dynamic. When someone resists or runs from your witness, you have made the gospel personal.

We know that God loves you, dear brothers and sisters, and that he chose you to be his own people. For when we brought you the Good News, it was not only with words but also with power, for the Holy Spirit gave you full assurance that what we said was true. And you know that the way we lived among you was further proof of the truth of our message. (1 Thes. 1:4-5)

The gospel requires a life-changing response. The gospel came "with power"; it had a powerful effect on the Thessalonians. Whenever the Bible is heard and obeyed, lives are changed! Christianity is more than a collection of interesting facts; it is the power of God to everyone who believes. What has God's power done in your life since you first believed?

The Holy Spirit changes people when they believe the gospel. When we tell others about Christ, we must depend on the Holy Spirit to open their eyes and convince them that they need salvation. God's power—not our cleverness or persuasion—changes people. Without the work of the Holy Spirit, our words are meaningless. The Holy Spirit not only convicts people of sin but also assures them of the truth of the gospel.

To whom is the gospel addressed?

Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah must suffer and die and rise again from the dead on the third day. With my authority, take this message of repentance to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: "There is forgiveness of sins for all who turn to me." (Luke 24:46-47)

The gospel is for all people. Luke wrote to the Greek-speaking world. He wanted them to know that Christ's message of God's love and forgiveness should go to all the world. We must never ignore the worldwide scope of Christ's gospel. God wants all the world to hear the Good News of salvation.

Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given complete authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 28:18-19)

Jesus commanded us to take the gospel around the world. God gave Jesus authority over heaven and earth. On the basis of that authority, Jesus told his disciples to make more disciples as they preached, baptized, and taught. With this same authority, Jesus still commands us to tell others the Good News and make them disciples for the kingdom.

When someone is dying or leaving us, his or her last words are very important. Jesus left the disciples with these last words of instruction: they were under his authority; they were to make more disciples; they were to baptize and teach these new disciples to obey Christ; Christ would be with them always. Whereas in previous missions Jesus had sent his disciples only to the Jews (Matthew 10:5-6), their mission from now on would be worldwide. Jesus is Lord of the earth, and he died for the sins of people from all nations.

Give my greetings to all the Christians there. The brothers who are with me here send you their greetings. And all the other Christians send their greetings, too, especially those who work in Caesar's palace. (Phil. 4:21-22)

The gospel speaks to the needs of all people. There were many Christians in Rome; some were even in Caesar's household. Perhaps Paul, while awaiting trial, was making converts of the Roman civil service! Paul sent greetings from these Roman Christians to the believers at Philippi. The gospel had spread to all strata of society, linking people who had no other bond but Christ. The Roman Christians and the Philippian Christians were brothers and sisters because of their unity in Christ. Believers today are also linked to others across cultural, economic, and social barriers. Because all believers are brothers and sisters in Christ, let us live like God's true family.

(Handbook of Bible Application)

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Bloodbought
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This is what I believe.

Predestination

If you're a Christian, you've heard of predestination. You must have because the Bible uses the word and teaches the idea. But what is predestination? How does free will fit in? What about man's sinfulness and God's sovereignty? Is predestination a fair doctrine or does it make God out to be dispassionate and tyrannical? In this paper, I will attempt to answer those questions.
Predestination is the doctrine that God alone chooses (elects) who is saved. He makes His choice independent of any quality or condition in sinful man. He does not look into a person and recognize something good nor does He look into the future to see who would choose Him. He elects people to salvation purely on the basis of His good pleasure. Those not elected are not saved. He does this because He is sovereign; that is, He has the absolute authority, right, and ability to do with His creation as He pleases. He has the right to elect some to salvation and let all the rest go their natural way: to hell. This is predestination.
In response to this definition, some will protest, "Unfair!" It may seem so at first, but you will see that it is quite fair. More importantly, it is biblical. To help you understand predestination, I would like to address several areas in order:

The Eternal Covenant
Man's Sinful Condition
The Result of Sinful Man's Condition
Man's Free Will
The Necessity of Predestination
God's Sovereign Election
Conclusion
Objections Answered

1) The Eternal Covenant
Usually, the best place to start a study is at the beginning, and in order to understand predestination better we need to start at its beginning. Its origin can be found in what is called the Eternal Covenant. Hebrews 13:20 says, "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep." If you have never heard of the eternal covenant, then you need to familiarize yourself with it because it is vital to a proper understanding of one of the ways God deals with His people. Essentially, God works covenantally.
A Covenant is a pact or agreement between two parties. It is a contract. The Old and New Testaments are really the Old and New Covenants. Testament comes from the Latin testamentum, which means covenant. In the O.T. the Hebrew word for covenant is always b'rith. In the N.T. it is always diatheke. There are OT covenants that God made with individuals, i.e. Adam (Gen. 2:15-17), Noah (Gen. 9:12-16), Abraham (Gen. 17), the Israelites at Mount Sinai (Ex. 34:28), and David (Sam. 7:12-16), etc., and in the NT there is the New Covenant (Luke 22:20; Matt. 26:28; Heb. 7:22) that was prophesied in Jer. 31:31-37.
The Eternal Covenant, then, is the covenant made between God the Father and the Son with regard to the elect. This covenant was made before the universe was created and it consisted of the Father promising to bring to the Son all whom the Father had given the Son. "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day...I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours...Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world" ( John 6:39;17:9,24, NIV).
In the Eternal Covenant, the Father would prepare the Son a body (Luke 1:35; Heb. 10:5); give the Son the Spirit without measure (Is. 43:1,2; 61:1); always support and comfort the Son (Is. 42:1-7; 49:8); deliver the Son from the power of death (Ps. 2); bring to the Son all whom the Father had given Him (John 6:39; 17:9,24); and give the Son a number of redeemed that no one could number (Ps. 22:27; 72:17). The Son's part was to assume human nature (Gal. 4:4,5; Heb. 2:10,11,14,15); be under the Law (Ps. 40:8; Gal. 4:4,5; Phil. 2:5-8); and to bear the sins of His people (Isaiah 53:12; John 10:11,15; 1 Pet. 2:24).
In the Eternal Covenant we see that God has given a certain number of people to the Son and that the Son came to redeem them, to "lose none of them" (John 6:39). We can conclude from this that God had in mind a certain people whom would be His elect. Since God knows all things, He knows those whom He has chosen. Hence, they are predestined from the very beginning of time.


2) Man's Sinful Condition
Man is sinful. He does not become a sinner by sinning. He sins because he is a sinner. He is depraved, which means that sin has corrupted all that he is: mind, soul, spirit, emotions, and body. Man is so engulfed in sin, so thoroughly touched by it, that there is nothing in him that merits or enables salvation. He, therefore, is born into a state of condemnation: "...and [we] were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Eph. 2:3). This is not to say that we are as evil as we can be, rather, that all of what we are is affected by sin.
The heart is often referred to in scripture as the deepest part of man and the center of his spiritual nature (Esther 7:5; 1 Cor. 7:37; Rom. 6:17; Deut. 29:4). From the heart man understands (Prov. 8:5), reflects (Luke 2:19), feels joy (Isa. 65:14), and experiences pain (Prov. 25:20). Because of his depravity (sinful condition), man's heart is not only impure but desperately sick: "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9). Also, it is out of the heart that we speak "...out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks" (Matt. 12:34), and what is in the heart of the person is what comes out of him: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man" (Mark 7:21-23). It follows then that man's understanding, reflection, feelings, and experiences are all stained by sin.
The unregenerate person is a slave of sin: "For when you were slaves of sin you were free in regard to righteousness" (Rom. 6:20). That means that doing good is not a concern or need of the unbeliever--and naturally so for a person with a sinful nature. The unregenerate is inherently against God: "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity...thus establishing peace" (Eph. 2:15). Enmity is hatred, bitterness, and malice toward an enemy. That was our relationship to God prior to salvation; there was enmity between us.
So, the Bible reveals the true nature of man. It is evil (Mark 7:21-23), sick (Jer. 17:9), a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20), at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15), and, of course, naturally belongs in hell (Eph. 2:3). It then follows that out of his utterly sinful condition, only sinful desires and effects will follow. The question must then be asked, "How can a sinful person ever desire God?"


3) The Result of Man's Sinful Condition
Because of man's sinfulness, he is unable to understand God, seek God, or do any thing good: "...both Jews and Greeks are all under sin as it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one'" (Rom. 3:9-12).
Because of his sinfulness, he loves darkness rather than light; he loves evil rather than good: "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil" (John 3:19).
Because of his depravity, he is incapable of accepting the things of God or understanding them: "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Cor. 2:14). The natural man is the unregenerate man. The natural man cannot understand the things of God. Notice it does not say, "has trouble understanding," or "can if he's sincere," or "will be able to if he chooses God." It says he cannot understand. Salvation is one of those "things of God," and so is the understanding of being lost, of being a sinner, of needing repentance, etc. All of these are out of reach of the natural man. He cannot understand them.
So, in light of these scriptures, how can an unbeliever come to an understanding that he needs salvation if the Bible teaches that he cannot understand his need (1 Cor. 2:14), that his nature is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and that he does not seek God (Rom. 3:11)? It would seem that man's sinful condition does not permit him to desire, understand, or want God. What effect, then, does this condition have upon his free will?


4) Man's Free Will
Many believe that man, by his free will, by something that resides in him, is completely able to independently accept or reject God. But this belief is not supported in scripture. As I stated above, man's will by nature is sinful. What then will a sinful free will choose? It will choose sin. His free will, then, would never allow Him to reach out to God.
But we must ask, "What is free will?". Generally it is accepted to mean the freedom to choose according to one's desires. This seems true. But someone is only as free as his nature is free. His will is limited to that which is within his nature. The unregenerate can only choose what his nature allows him to choose. Since he is full of sin, not goodness, his choices can only be sinful.
In other words, a person can choose to do only that which his nature allows him to do. He cannot simply will to suddenly vanish into thin air or fly like Superman because he is incapable of such feats; his nature limits him. So too with the nature of fallen man. He is severely limited by what he can and cannot do.
The sinful man:

cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11).
is lawless, rebellious, unholy, and profane (1 Tim. 1:9).
How then can the good desire to want God come out of the unsaved's evil heart? It cannot! How is he able, in his sinful free will, to desire God when his inclinations are always to reject Him? He cannot. How can he, with his blind and sinful will that is deadened, hardened, and enslaved by sin (Rom. 6:20) ever choose God? He cannot! It is impossible. That's why Jesus said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26, NIV).
But some still maintain that God works on a person and slowly teaches and guides him or her into believing. Others say that there is something in a person's free will that enables him to choose God. They maintain that everyone is equally able to accept or reject. But if they are equally free and equally able, then why don't they all equally accept God, or why don't they all equally choose to reject Him? Why are there variations in choice? Are the variations a result of a tendency that God gave them? But God made them that way. Is it because of their environment? But God put them there. Is it because of some physical inclination? But God gave them their bodies. Is it because of their parents' influence? But God gave them their parents.
The fact remains, man is not entirely free; he is sinfully free. The unsaved can act freely, but only within the limits of their sinful nature which cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11), hates God, and is in slavery to sin (Rom. 6:17,20), etc. That is why Jesus said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him..." (John 6:44), and, "No one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65). These are not the statements one would hope to find if the sinner were so free to choose to accept or reject God.


5) The Necessity of Predestination
I've laid the foundation: Man is completely a sinner who is incapable of understanding and coming to God and has a sinful free will capable only of rejecting God. Therefore, in order for salvation to occur, God must predestine. It can be no other way. If this is so, then there should be verses supporting it. There are:

Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.
John 1:12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, WHO WERE BORN NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.
Philippians 1:29: FOR TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for his sake.
Romans 8:29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5: HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.
Ephesians 1:11 Also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE who works all things after the counsel of His will.
The preceding scriptures clearly show that the Lord is very active in salvation. He did not simply provide the means of salvation, the cross, but He also ensured the application of the blood of Christ through predestination.

Please consider that it is God who:

- draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65).
- creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10).
- appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48).
- works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).
- chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4).
- chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14).
- grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29).
- grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26).
- calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9).
- causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3).
- predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30).
- predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5).
- predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11).
- makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).
It is man who:

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).
How can it be any other way than God's loving predestination to make our salvation not only possible, but also a reality? Left to man, salvation is impossible: "When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, ‘Who then can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, ‘With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible'" (Matthew 19:25-26). That is why it must be God who opens the heart: "And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14).
This is what truly glorifies God, that in His infinite mercy He is gracious enough to save those who would always reject Him, always hate Him, and always malign Him. Praise Him and His love!


6) God's Sovereign Election

God is sovereign. Sovereignty means that God is supreme in power and authority, that He answers to no one, and that He may do as He pleases for whatever reason He chooses. "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure'" (Isaiah 46:10); "...to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:28); "...this Man [Jesus], delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross..." (Acts 2:23).
Out of a people of utter sinfulness and inability, God has chosen, by His sovereign grace, to elect some into salvation and not others. Remember, there is nothing in man that merits any favor, blessing, or mercy whatsoever. For there is no favoritism with God (Rom. 2:11). Each and every person is entirely worthy of wrath and incapable of saving himself. That is why God has chosen a people to Himself out of the good pleasure of His heart. Because without His choosing, none would ever come to Him. Therefore, predestination is a loving doctrine: "...In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ..." (Eph. 1:4,5).
He chooses some and ignores others not because of what the person has done, or what is foreknown that he would do, but simply because of God's sovereign choice: "[God] who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim. 1:9); and, "for though the twins had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated'" (Rom. 9:11-13; see also, Psalm 11:5).

Sovereignty is why God has mercy on whom He desires and hardens whom He desires: "For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy...So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Rom. 9:15,16,18). This is sovereignty! It is God who is in control.
Some He has elected to salvation, others He has not: "...for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed" (1 Pet. 2:8); And, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Rom. 9:22-23). It seems quite clear that God prepares some for mercy and not others. That is sovereignty.


7) CONCLUSION

With a better understanding of scripture, predestination is not the tyrannical doctrine that so many make it out to be. Predestination is really the manifestation of God's mercy and love. It ensures the salvation of the ones He has called. It properly reveals the true nature of man to be utterly sinful, rebellious, and antagonistic to God. It puts God in total sovereign control, where He rightfully belongs. It removes man's ability to take any credit at all for salvation, because even the act of believing could not be self-authored in a sinful free will. And, finally, it reveals the greatness of God's mercy and love and causes the saved to rest in the knowledge that it was God who made their salvation sure, and not their own faulty, sinful wills.

8) Objections Answered


1) How does this doctrine of predestination fit in with a loving God?
But predestination is loving. Without the loving predestination of God (Eph. 1:4,5) no one would ever be saved. All would go to hell.

2) If God predestines us, and our sinful wills would never allow us to seek God, then wouldn't God be violating the wills of those He calls?
No, because He doesn't violate their wills when He regenerates them first. Since God calls (Rom. 8:28-30), He first regenerates the nature of the person called. Since the person is then regenerate, with a new nature (2 Cor. 5:17), he is then able to desire God. Therefore, God does not violate his will.
But some say that faith brings regeneration. Again I ask: How can an unregenerate person have faith in the true God? He cannot. It is regeneration that brings faith.

3) Does this mean that even if you wanted to be saved you couldn't if you're not predestined?
This question doesn't reflect a proper understanding of the condition of man. The unsaved don't want salvation or the true God, so they wouldn't ever seek salvation. Also, anyone who truly desires salvation is only wanting it because the Lord is drawing him.

4) Doesn't Romans 8:29 prove that God looked into the future and foreknew who would accept Him?: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called."
There are two reasons why these verses cannot be used to support that idea. First, if you read the verse, there is a key word that is often missed: "also." The verse says that the ones foreknown are ALSO predestined. In other words, the same ones foreknown are the ones predestined. It does not say that He foreknew all and predestined some; otherwise it would say, "Of those He foreknew, some He predestined." It says He ALSO predestined those whom He foreknew. The foreknown are the group He has predestined to be saved.
Second, God only "knows" believers. He does not "know" unbelievers. Matt. 7:22-23 says, "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'"
John 10:27 says, "My sheep hear My voice, and I KNOW THEM, and they follow Me";
John 13:18 says, "I do not speak of all of you, I KNOW THE ONES I HAVE CHOSEN..."
Gal. 4:9 says, "But now that you have come to know God, or rather TO BE KNOWN by Him..."
2 Tim. 2:19 says, "...The Lord KNOWS those who are His..."
These verses show a "knowing" that is related to salvation. Only Christians are "known." Only the foreKNOWN are predestined. God foreknew; that is, He foreloved His chosen ones and predestined them into salvation. God knows believers, hence the word "foreknown." Therefore, Rom. 8:29 doesn't support the idea that God looked into the future to see who would pick Him.
In addition, God would not look into a person to see if he would pick Him, because if that were so, then God's choice would depend upon Man's choice and God would not be sovereign.

5) What about the verses that suggest you choose God?
"Whosoever will believe...He who receives... etc." We see in Scripture both God's and Man's hands in salvation. God elects, predestines, draws, and saves. Man chooses, but only after God has saved him (see objection number 2). We experience and understand the act of choosing, but this is because we do so after we're regenerate. If someone says that he freely chose to accept God and that predestination is untrue, then he is establishing doctrine by his experience. This is something that is to be avoided.
Acts 13:48 describes the "whosoever." They are the ones who are appointed to believe: "...and all who were appointed for eternal life believed." It is obvious from this verse that the ones who believe are the ones who are appointed by God to believe. Remember also Philippians 1:29: "For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake." God grants that the elect believe. That is why we are born again not of our wills but of the will of God (John 1:12-13).

6) But it isn't fair to only choose some.
Fairness is that we all go to hell. ALL people deserve damnation (Eph. 2:3). God would be perfectly just to let all slide into the eternal abyss of damnation--and He would still be just as loving, because that is His nature. God doesn't owe us anything. The question isn't "Why would He only choose SOME?"; but rather, "Why did He choose ANY?"

7) What about verses like "I will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32)?
The "all" are only the Christians. This may sound absurd at first. The Bible says that Jesus is the only way to the Father (John 14:6) and that there is no other name under heaven by which a man may be saved (Acts 4:12). Can the "all" here mean everyone? What about those who never heard the gospel, like the Aborigines 100 years before Christ? Does the gospel message apply to them? I ask this because how can anyone be saved apart from Jesus, especially when they haven't had the opportunity to hear the gospel? It seems to me that the "all" of this verse must apply to the elect.
Incidentally, a discussion of Romans 5:18 sheds light on the biblical usage of "all" when it says, "...there resulted justification of life to all men" (NASB). The "all" there obviously cannot mean everyone, but only a select group, i.e., "the many" spoken of in the following verse.
In addition, other verses worth examining in this context are 1 Cor. 15:22 and 2 Cor. 5:14. It says in 1 Cor. 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." Adam represented everyone in his death. Christ represented the elect in His death as is evidenced by the fact that the only ones who are made alive in Christ (Rom. 6:11; 8:10) are the Christians. The "all" can only be the elect.
2 Cor. 5:14 says, "For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died." The only ones who die in Christ (Rom. 6:8) are the Christians. The "all" can only be the elect.
If you are interested in a more thorough analysis of verses that say things like "God wants all men to be saved" then click on "All Men Saved."

8) But I actually did choose to accept God.
That is right. You did. But only because God first regenerated you, freed your will from sin, and thereby allowed you to be able to choose Him. Regeneration precedes faith. The regenerated person is no longer the slave of sin (Rom. 6:6) and is therefore able to desire God. He then DOES choose God.
This act of regeneration is what God does. Remember, your believing is something God has given you: "For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29); Also, "Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent'" (John 6:29); And, "...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).
This is also why we are born again not by our own wills, but the will of God: "But as many as received Him...[these] were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12,13).
http://www.mslick.com/predestination.htm

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Calvinism's Unconditional Election

This Calvinistic doctrine states that God, in eternity past, chose certain individuals for salvation. This election was not based on any merit of those chosen, and not due to anything God foreknew about them. The Calvinist points to the many scriptures that use words such as chosen, elected, and predestined to make his point.

No reasonable person would argue that the Bible doesn’t say that Christians have been chosen, elected or predestined by God. The debate between Calvinists and non-Calvinists is what those terms specifically mean. Calvinists argue that God’s election is unconditional, while non-Calvinists argue that election is conditional. Calvinists sometimes respond by saying that the term, “conditional election,” is an oxymoron and that non-Calvinists force a meaning upon the term “election.” Yet every election ever known to man has been conditional. We elect, or choose, a spouse based on criteria we have established. We elect politicians based on their voting records and promises. We elect, or choose, jobs based on benefits we will receive. Why then must the term “conditional election” be an oxymoron? When people use the word “election” in speaking of any subject other than theology, they are always speaking of a conditional election. Who has ever heard of any “unconditional election” outside of Calvinistic theology? Thus the phrase “unconditional election” is much more of an oxymoron.

Non-Calvinists maintain that before the foundation of the world, God elected to save those, and only those, who believe. Thus our election is conditioned upon our faith. Those who believe make up the group of people whom the Bible refers to as the elect or chosen of God. And because God is all knowing, He foreknew those who would believe. We have been, as Peter writes, “chosen according to the foreknowledge of God” (1 Pet. 1:1-2, emphasis added). This view is the only one that is consistent with all of Scripture, as we will soon see.

The Calvinist, who believes in man’s total depravity and God’s irresistible grace, has no choice but to believe in God’s supposed unconditional election. His foundational theology leaves him no other alternative, and that is why Calvinists often begin, like John Piper, citing those two foundations as they begin to defend their concept of unconditional election (see Piper, p. 19, par. 1). If man is totally depraved and unable to repent, and salvation is all the work of God and none of man, then those who are saved must be so only because of God’s choosing them. There is, however, no need for me to respond to this typical initial argument, since we’ve found that the two foundational assumptions are fatally flawed. God doesn’t save people by bestowing on them irresistible grace, and no saved person was ever totally depraved by the Calvinistic definition.

Obviously, the idea of God predestining some to salvation means that He also predestined some to eternal damnation, what is called reprobation. Calvin wrote in his Institutes,


All men are not created for the same end; but some are fore-ordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation. So according as every man was created for the one end or the other, we say, he was elected, that is, predestined to life, or reprobated, that is, predestined to damnation (Calv. Inst., book 3, chapter 21, section 1).

Some Calvinists who assert election foolishly deny reprobation, but there is no escape from the fact that it is impossible to hold one without holding the other. People who are not chosen to be saved are chosen to be damned. Calvin himself asserts this undeniable fact:


Many indeed (thinking to excuse God) own election, and yet deny reprobation; but this is quite silly and childish. For without reprobation, election itself cannot stand; whom God passes by, those he reprobates. It is one and the same thing (Calv. Inst., book 3, chapter 23, section 1).

Calvin was absolutely right on this point. “Without reprobation, election itself cannot stand.” Make no mistake about this: God wants certain people to go to hell, otherwise He would have predestined them to go to heaven and bestowed upon them His “irresistible grace.” And this is what makes the doctrine of unconditional election so repugnant to lovers of God, for it makes their God into a monster who creates people for the express purpose of tormenting them eternally in hell. From before the time they were born, they were doomed, with no hope of escaping eternal fires. It would have been better if such people had never been born. And some Calvinists say that this actually glorifies God.

Dear Calvinist, what would you say if you discovered that people were saying of you and your newly-wedded spouse, “I hear they are planning on having six children, five of whom they plan to cruelly torture all their lives, and one of whom they plan to treat kindly”? Would you not be greatly offended that anyone would even entertain such an awful rumor? Yet that is what you are saying about God! You nullify His great attributes of love and justice with your doctrine!

How is it possible to reconcile unconditional election/damnation with the scores of scriptures that clearly state that God desires for all to be saved? Here is just a small sampling:


“Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast” (Matt. 22:9).

And [Jesus] said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation” (Mark 16:15).

“I say these things that you [those who persecuted Him and wanted to kill Him; see John 5:16-18] may be saved (John 5:34, emphasis added). [And why were they not saved? Jesus explains in 5:40:] “And you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life”.

“And [God] made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us (Acts 17:26-27).

“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent (Acts 17:30).

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time (1 Tim. 2:3-6).

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9).

And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14).

Anyone who believes these scriptures at face value must abandon the idea of unconditional election/damnation.

How is it possible to reconcile the idea of unconditional election with God’s many universal invitations to salvation? How could He be considered anything less than a cruel deceiver if He invites people to receive His gift when He Himself has sovereignly decreed that they shall never receive it? What would we think of someone who holds a rope thirty feet above a man at the bottom of well and pleads with him to take hold of it so he can pull him out? We would think the rope-holder was deranged at best and a cruel demon at worst. Consider the following utterances from the lips of God’s Son; if God has unconditionally elected some to salvation and the rest to damnation, could Christ have been sincere in saying the following?


Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest (Matt. 11:28).

And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me” (Luke 9:23).

For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it (Matt. 16:25).

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him (John 3:16-17).

And if anyone hears My sayings, and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world (John 12:47).

If God has unalterably decreed some to salvation and the rest to damnation, then all the above scriptures are very misleading and Christ is a deceiver. Moreover, why does God plead with people to repent if they are incapable of doing so by His sovereign decree? Read the following small sampling of scriptures below and ask how they can possibly be reconciled with unconditional election/damnation without making God insincere at best and a cruel deceiver at worst:


Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever! (Deut. 5:29).

But My people did not listen to My voice; and Israel did not obey Me. So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart, to walk in their own devices. Oh that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! I would quickly subdue their enemies, and turn My hand against their adversaries (Ps. 18:11-14).

Say to them, “As I live!” declares the Lord God, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?” (Ezek. 33:11)

Hundreds of scriptures like these could be cited. Why would God lament that His people would not change their hearts and plead with them to do so if they were unable to do so by His own sovereign decree? If that were actually the case, God is a fool. (Neither must He understand, as Calvinists do, that people are totally depraved and are incapable of turning from sin.)

How is it possible to reconcile the ideas of unconditional election and damnation with the many scriptures that declare that Jesus came to save all by dying for all, atoning for everyone’s sins, even those who ultimately perish in hell? Scripture says,


All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him (Is. 53:6).

For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost (Matt. 18:11)

The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29).

For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him (John 3:17).

I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world (John 12:47).

For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all (Rom. 11:32).

For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf (2 Cor. 5:14-15).

For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time (1 Tim. 2:5-6).

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men (Tit. 2:11)

But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (Heb. 2:9).

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves (2 Pet. 2:1).

He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

In the last two scriptures quoted, we plainly see that Jesus paid for the sins of those who are not saved, including even false prophets.

How can the idea of unconditional election/damnation be reconciled with God’s perfect justice? Even a child knows that such an idea holds intrinsic unfairness. “Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?”(Gen. 18:25).

How will God judge the world in justice if unconditional election/damnation is true? When He says to the goats on His left, “Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink” and so on, might they not rightly say, “But we could not help but sin, because You created us totally depraved, and because we were not among the elect, You never did bestow upon us Your irresistible grace! We never had a chance to be saved, because our damnation You predestined before we were born! How can you righteously condemn us?”

Will God condemn them for what it was impossible for them not to do? Will He punish them everlastingly for not escaping what they could not escape? He might as justly punish people because their hearts beat within them! So do Calvinists nullify God’s justice by elevating His sovereignty to unbiblical proportions.

How can the idea of unconditional election/damnation be reconciled with the many scriptures that speak of God’s love? We are told in Scripture that “God is love” (1 John 4:8) and that He “is kind to ungrateful and evil men” (Luke 6:35). “The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works” (Ps. 145:9). How could it be said that God is good to those whom He creates and predestines to damnation?

Calvinists often speak of a “common grace” that is enjoyed by all, contrasting it with “saving grace” that is extended only to those who are predestined to salvation. In His common grace, they say, everyone experiences God’s goodness and love, even those not predestined to salvation, in that they enjoy His goodness to them while on earth. He supplies them with food, covering, pleasures, and so on, all temporal manifestations of His kindness.

I would beg to differ however, that such “common grace” can rightfully be considered an expression of God’s love towards one who is predestined to be damned. In light of what he must suffer for eternity, it would have been better for him to never have been born! At the price he must pay for his temporal, earthly blessings, every such “blessing” is really a curse. Every kindness from God that he enjoys on earth will cost him millions of years of hellish agony. During his life he is only being fattened for the slaughter that awaits him, and better if he had been born an animal to be slaughtered! Perhaps the “kindest” thing God did for him while he was on earth was to hide from him his unalterable destiny. This kind of “love” is enough to make one’s blood run cold. What sentence would any earthly judge bestow upon a person who displayed such “love”?

http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/calvinism/calvinism-unconditional-election

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“COME TO ME, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and LEARN FROM ME” (Matthew 11:28)

Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. (John 7:37)

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. (John 6:35)

The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. (Revelation 22:17)

Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:13)

And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 2:29-31)

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1 Timothy 2:14

And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Eve was deceived, but Adam sinned willfully with his eyes wide open (1 Tim. 2:14). This is why Paul points to Adam, not Eve, as the one who brought sin and death into the human race (Rom. 5:12-21). "For as in Adam all die" (1 Cor. 15:22).

Eve sinned because she was attracted to the fruit of the forbidden tree. She was walking by sight and not by faith in God's Word. Genesis 3:6 parallels 1 John 2:16: "good for food"—"the lust of the flesh"; "pleasant to the eyes"—"the lust of the eyes"; "desirable for gaining wisdom" (NIV)—"the pride of life."

We know why Eve succumbed to the temptation, but why did Adam willingly sin when he knew it was contrary to God's will? Did he see a change in Eve and realize that his wife wasn't in the same sphere of life as she had been? Did he have to make a choice between obeying God and staying with the wife he undoubtedly loved? These are questions the Bible neither raises nor answers, and it's unwise for us to speculate. Adam made a choice, the wrong choice, and humanity has suffered ever since.

Wiersbe

Romans 5:14

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

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If it’s exclusively the will to choose God you want to talk about, then no, Adam did not have the will to choose or obey God. Satan influenced him. His will was persuaded so that he was free to eat the forbidden fruit. As far as I know that is Calvin’s position. I have said and I will say again no one has the will to choose Christ and His offer of mercy without the influence of the Holy Spirit. Satan’s influence has to be reversed and finite man has no ability to reverse his deception. If man is to be saved the Holy Spirit must do a work of grace in his heart before he can reject the devils deception and accept Christ. Man is no match for Satan, the more he tries to save himself the more deceived he becomes, but when the Holy Spirit opens and prepares his heart to receive the good seed of the word, he chooses and accepts Christ as Lord and Savor.

No man is able to come to Christ without being drawn by the Father.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The ESV Study Bible John 6:37
6:37 Whoever comes to me I will never cast out implies that people should never think, “Maybe I am not chosen by God, and therefore maybe Jesus will reject me when I come to him.” Jesus promises to receive everyone who comes to him and trusts him for salvation. Yet, a few verses later (v. 44) Jesus states the paradoxical and corresponding truth that once people come to Jesus, they will realize that behind their willing decision to come and believe lies the mysterious, invisible work of the Father who all along was drawing them to Christ. See Romans 9; Eph. 1:3–6.

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Adam was not deprived of anything at all until after the fall.

Obviously we aren't talking about what to eat or other daily activities. We were talking about man's free will to choose God.

You said Calvin did not teach loss of free will. Calvin did teach loss of free will. Why do you deny it?

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Bloodbought
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Yes, but Adam was only deprived of obeying God. He wasn’t deprived of making a choice to eat the fruit.
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Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin

Book Second

Chapter 2. Man Now Deprived of Freedom of Will, and Miserably Enslaved.

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Bloodbought
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Calvin didn’t say man had no free will.
He said,
“Because of the bondage of sin by which the will is held bound, it cannot move toward good.”

Adam had free will, but Satan bound his will from obeying God’s command, by throwing doubt into his mind. By his own free will then, he chose to eat the forbidden fruit.

It’s not that man has no free will at all.
All of us have free will, we make choices every day, but our will is influenced by circumstances.

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quote:
Adam and Eve had to decide whether God or Satan was lying. They decided that God was lying. Their knowledge of good and evil had made them not wise, but foolish.
They didn't have the knowledge of good and evil until AFTER they made their decision and ate the fruit.

quote:
Calvin never believed that man has no free will. Man is free to choose as he pleases, no one forces him to choose,
Calvin DID believe that man has no free will. He actually wrote about it.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Because of the bondage of sin by which the will is held bound, it cannot move toward good, much less apply itself thereto
quote:
For this reason, I have said that all parts of the soul were possessed by sin after Adam deserted the fountain of righteousness.
Those are quotes of Calvin. Bondage...possession.

Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin

Book Second
Chapter 2. Man Now Deprived of Freedom of Will, and Miserably Enslaved.

quote:
Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;

That is a quote from God.

Adam and Eve had to decide whether God or Satan was lying. They decided that God was lying. Their knowledge of good and evil had made them not wise, but foolish. You could say they were in bondage by Satan because of his subtlety, but they made a choice, which was the wrong choice. I can see why Calvin said what he said. Satan is still lying and causing people to believe they are good enough without Christ and salvation. Without a work of grace in the heart, They will not come to Him that they might have life.
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quote:
Can you point out one verse of scripture, where man chose God without the influence of His word?
Every godly person who lived before Moses wrote the Word?
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You think that Calvin never believed that man has no free will?

quote:
Because of the bondage of sin by which the will is held bound, it cannot move toward good, much less apply itself thereto
quote:
For this reason, I have said that all parts of the soul were possessed by sin after Adam deserted the fountain of righteousness.
Those are quotes of Calvin. Bondage...possession.

Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin

Book Second
Chapter 2. Man Now Deprived of Freedom of Will, and Miserably Enslaved.

quote:
Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;

That is a quote from God.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Total depravity DOES mean that man has no free will.
Not at all, Calvin never believed that man has no free will. Man is free to choose as he pleases, no one forces him to choose, if they did, he wood be a robot without a mind of his own. Man has free will, no doubt about it, but left to his freedom of choice, just like Adam he will make the wrong choice. How then is he going to be able to make the right choice? He makes the right choice by the influence of the Holy Spirit. But you may say, if he is influenced his will is no longer free. Not so, it’s no different than you going to a clothes shop to choose a new outfit. You choose the one that appeals to you, you try it on and suddenly your father who has been in the clothes trade for years steps in and points out a defect in the outfit. You then reject that outfit and choose another. What has happened? Well, you changed your mind. You could have taken the faulty outfit, but you didn’t want to, you wanted an outfit without any flaws.

Sin is the flawed garment that Adam acquired and has been passed down through the generations. Once we have an encounter with the Holy Spirit and He points out the flaw and offers us the perfect garment of the righteousness of Christ, we choose to accept it.
Without the influence of the Holy Spirit we cannot see the flaw.

Can you point out one verse of scripture, where man chose God without the influence of His word?

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Total depravity doesn’t mean loss of free will. It means to be without the ability to new-birth one’s self and bring one’s self into a right relationship with God. When Paul was converted he didn’t know to believe in Jesus. He didn’t even know whom it was that was speaking to him, until he asked the question “who art thou Lord.”

So man did not become totally depraved until after Pentecost?

Actually, total depravity would have begun on the day of the fall of man in Eden, centuries before the new birth began on the day of Pentecost. While I agree that man is unable to save himself through acts of self-righteousness and sacrifice, and that our sin natures taint every good thing we try to do on our own, I don't agree that man is totally depraved in the Calvinistic sense.

There was a man named Job who lived in the land of Uz. He was blameless, a man of complete integrity. He feared God and stayed away from evil. (Job 1:1)

But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. (Genesis 6:8-9)

Jesus told a story of a sinful man praying for forgiveness. Man can turn to God.

Luke 18:9-14 9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

One definition of total depravity is that all parts of us are affected by sin - mind, emotions, will, body - and that all people are affected by sin. I agree with this definition. But Calvin's total depravity teaches that man is completely corrupt and has no free will.

Total depravity DOES mean that man has no free will.

Calvin's total depravity says man’s will is bound by sin and Satan so that we do not have the ability to choose God. Calvinism believes man cannot perceive the Truth to be saved; God does it all for us. But if we could not perceive the Truth, then why did Jesus preach it to us? Calvinism also believes that man cannot choose God to be saved; again, God does it all – He chooses us but we do not choose Him. But if sinners cannot choose God, then why did God tell them to choose Him?

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve ; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions ? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him . And the people answered him not a word.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life , that both thou and thy seed may live:

The above verses show that man can choose God. To deny that is to deny the Bible. Israel chose God:

Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

You mentioned Paul. Paul was totally devoted to God. He just did not understand that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah. After he understood, he repented. But it wasn't until three days later that he received the Holy Spirit and was regenerated.

Mankind can choose if presented with the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why else would Jesus tell people to repent? The word “repent” would have absolutely no meaning if we do not have the ability to do so. Why would Jesus call people to come to Him if they were unable to do so?

Other commands that God gave us like obey Me, seek Me, and follow Me would have no meaning if man was totally depraved.

Calvinism believes that the will of man is controlled by Satan so that we cannot make a choice for God. However, the will of man must remain under our control for if it is controlled by Satan then we would only do what Satan wants. Our wills are not under Satan’s control or else all men would ONLY act just like devils, full of hatred, murder, and destruction. There would be no love and no good on the earth whatsoever among unbelievers. But unbelievers do love and do good, except like Paul, they just don't understand that Jesus is the Christ. We need to help them understand.

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. (Matt 12:35)

If total depravity were true, there would be no justification for God to reward or judge man. All reward is just God rewarding Himself and all punishment is God only punishing Satan. If it is just God versus Satan, you must ask yourself, what do we have to do with it? Are we nothing but automatons doing as we are forced to do with no power to choose? Why would God have given the Ten Commandments to people who were controlled by Satan and totally unable to obey Him?

Without free-will, man cannot love God. And we know that God says for us to love Him with all our heart (Matt 22:37). For a man to love God, he must have the freedom to love. Love cannot be forced or compelled.

We cannot save ourselves, but every person has the freedom and the ability to ask God to save him. Every person has the right to receive Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. To deny people that right is to deny all the love and compassion Jesus taught us. Election denies people that right. Total depravity denies people the ability.

quote:
We learn from this that God causes his elect to become convicted and irritated about their sin and that in turn causes them to do as He says and accept Christ as Lord and Savior and then they can see clearly where they are going.

Some people are convicted and irritated by their sins. Other people come to faith for other reasons. Simon Greenleaf and Lee Strobel did a great deal of research and were convinced by the truth. Charles Spurgeon was inspired by something he heard. John Newton, who wrote the song "Amazing Grace", was terrified by a storm at sea and cried out to God. Some people simply fall in love with God. Different people have different reasons.
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