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Topic: The Body Is Raptured
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Carol Swenson
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I see. You believe that Satan's last rebellion is the Tribulation. What do you think about Revelation chapters 6-18?
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Chaplain Bob
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
[QB] What Bible verses show that the Millennial Kingdom comes before the Tribulation?
Rev 20:1-10.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
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Carol Swenson
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Okay, we will agree to disagree. May God bless you and all those you love.
But I will continue on my own because this topic has really captured my interest. A doctrine can’t be built on a single verse, and in fact the study of the Messianic Kingdom promised to Israel, and of Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah, is a huge study.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
For what it's worth, I appreciate the way you study and contend for the faith.
You too.
quote:
He didn't say that it was not here or there, but He said that people won't say 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!'
“What Jesus says to the Pharisees is that they, as others, are to look for the kingdom of God within themselves, not in outward displays and supernatural manifestations. It is not a localized display “Here” or “There.”
Word Pictures in the New Testament
That is how I understand it, so we will have to agree to disagree.
Have a nice weekend.
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Carol Swenson
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What Bible verses show that the Millennial Kingdom comes before the Tribulation?
In my Bible, chapters 1-3 in the Book of Revelation are the introduction and letters to the churches.
Chapter 4 John is taken to Heaven. (Rapture after the Church Age).
Chapter 5 is the Book with Seven Seals and the Lamb.
Chapters 6-18 are the Tribulation.
Chapter 19 is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, the Lord's return to Earth, and the doom of the Antichrist and False Prophet.
Chapter 20 Satan is bound and the Millennial Kingdom is established. After the 1000 years, Satan is freed and gathers an army. The army is destroyed and Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire. Then there is the Great White Throne Judgment.
Chapter 21 is The beginning of the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem.
And chapter 22 is the River and the Tree of Life, and the final message.
This verse makes it clear that the Millennial Kingdom comes after the Tribulation.
Revelation 20:4-6 (NASB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
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Chaplain Bob
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
What do you believe about the Pretribulation Rapture?
After the Millennial Kingdom the Believers will be removed from this Earth and the tribulation takes place.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
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Carol Swenson
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For what it's worth, I appreciate the way you study and contend for the faith.
quote:
I don’t see any reason why this group of Pharisees could not be saved since there is no respect of persons with God. But again I don’t know. I’m not prepared to force my opinion into the passage.
Maybe some of them were saved, but not until after Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit. We know that no one who rejects Christ is saved. Acts tells us that some Pharisees became believers, so maybe this group was among those who believed. The Bible doesn't say.
quote:
What we know is that Jesus made it clear that the kingdom of God was invisible, could not be observed, was not here or there, but was within you, i.e. within the Pharisees.
He never said it was invisible. The Jews expected the Messiah to come with a great show of glory and power, but Jesus came humbly during His first advent. Not with observation means "not obvious." He didn't say that it was not here or there, but He said that people won't say 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' The Greek means "careful observation", so some commentators think He was referring to those who make calculations, study the stars, and watch for signs.
The Geneva Study Bible states it this way:
With any outward pomp and show of majesty to be known by: for there were still many plain and evident tokens by which men might have understood that Christ was the Messiah, whose kingdom had been so long looked for: but he speaks in this place of those signs which the Pharisees dreamed of, who looked for an earthly Messianic kingdom.
quote:
I know Jesus was with them and they didn’t recognize Him, but if the Greek word ἐντὸς means among, what was it that was among them?
Jesus was among them. With all His miracles, and all His wisdom. The Messiah, the Christ, the King of Kings.
They should have recognized Him because He was fulfilling Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah.
quote:
I think the kingdom of God rules from within individuals, whither believers or unbelievers, causing them to carry out His purpose.
Only those who are born again have the kingdom of God within them. Unbelievers are spiritually dead.
I know you can't believe that all the crime and immorality are His purpose. But maybe you are talking about our conscience that is within all people. Everyone has the choice to do good or evil. And Romans 1 explains that everyone has a knowledge of God by the evidence of what God has created. That doesn't mean that God rules them from within and causes them to do His purpose.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)
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Bloodbought
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quote:
The Irish are known for taking stubborn to a new level. You sure do show your Irish here! [cool_shades]
I’m a staunch lover and defender of truth. I like to investigate everything before I accept anything. I don’t go with everything that’s said; I question everything until I am certain in my own mind that it’s right. That may necessitate changing my mind at times. You can call that “taking stubborn to a new level” if you wish.
I don’t see any reason why this group of Pharisees could not be saved since there is no respect of persons with God. But again I don’t know. I’m not prepared to force my opinion into the passage.
What we know is that Jesus made it clear that the kingdom of God was invisible, could not be observed, was not here or there, but was within you, i.e. within the Pharisees.
I know Jesus was with them and they didn’t recognize Him, but if the Greek word ἐντὸς means among, what was it that was among them?
Was it the invisible kingdom of God that was among them and if so, was it only among them and no others?
I think the kingdom of God rules from within individuals, whither believers or unbelievers, causing them to carry out His purpose.
After the resurrection, believers will serve the Lord in the kingdom of heaven and unbelievers will serve the devil in the kingdom of Satan.
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Carol Swenson
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What do you believe about the Pretribulation Rapture?
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Chaplain Bob
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Ah, Betty and Carol, it is not my propaganda it's God's word. Try reading it and see what it says. I too believe in a pre-trib "rapture" but as described in Revelation.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
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Carol Swenson
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A Tribulation Saint wannabe. Then even if he managed to survive those truly horrendous years, he would have to spend the next 1000 years in his natural body while the rest of us enjoyed eternal youth in perfect bodies. But, if that's what he wants...
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Betty Louise
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Thank you Carol. Bob comes around every once in awhile to spread his propaganda.
Betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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Amen Betty! Christ returns in chapter 19, not 20, after the Marriage Supper of the Lamb to His Bride. The church is the bride of Christ, and we are with Him in Heaven for the supper before He returns to Earth.
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Betty Louise
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Believe what you want Chaplain Bob,but I believe in a pre-trib rapture.
Betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Chaplain Bob
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I have seen these ridiculous arguments from Rapture Cult members time and again. If you want to really know what is going to happen when Jesus returns read the last part of Rev. 20 and the first part of 21. It's right there in black and white, no pulling verses from different books to try to make a case for the "Rapture". You can't deny what God has given us and what He has planned for us.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
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Carol Swenson
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Well, as I wrote, some Pharisees were saved, but not before Pentecost.
You want to insist that this one particular group of Pharisees had the kingdom of God within them before the coming of the Holy Spirit? Jesus said they had to be born again first, but you say that they had the kingdom of God within them at the time Christ spoke those words. And even though they had the kingdom within them, they still had to ask Jesus when the kingdom was going to come.
I still don't know why it's so very important to you that those particular Pharisees had the kingdom within them.
It was only five days ago that you wrote
quote:
The Kingdom of God was within the company of the Pharisees in the person of Christ, but they failed to recognize it and therefor they did not have the kingdom of God in their hearts.
Within also means
Internal to, involving members of (a group of people)
"they argued within themselves" (among)
quote:
Don’t tamper with the words Jesus actually used and you will actually be smarter than any Lexicon that says otherwise.
I don't know the words He actually used! I wasn't there! I depend on translations, lexicons, and the Holy Spirit. I'm not a Greek scholar, and I will never pretend to understand their language better than they do. If they say that ἐντὸς is defined "within, among", then who are we to say it means only within? If they say the grammar necessitates the use of "among" then who are we to argue with them? You said "who are we to judge anyway". Aren't you judging those Greek scholars when you say all of them are wrong, and only you are right?
Remember in this verse other Greek words were used to mean "within you".
Colossians 3:16 (NASB)
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
In this verse, the Greek for "within you" is εν ὑμῖν
Doesn't the meaning of scripture agree with other scripture even if they use Greek in ways we don't understand?
The Irish are known for taking stubborn to a new level. You sure do show your Irish here! ![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
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Bloodbought
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In the same book, Luke 24:36 we read,
ο ιησους εστη εν μεσω αυτων, translated, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them.
The word εν μεσω is also translated among in Luke 22:27.
In Luke 17:21 if Jesus had wanted to say the kingdom of God is in the midst of you, He could easily have said, ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ εν μεσω ὑμῶν ἐστιν, the kingdom of God in the midst of you is. But no, He didn’t use the word εν μεσω meaning, in the midst; instead, He used the word ἐντὸς, meaning within. No matter how you slice it, the word He used is the word meaning within you. Don’t tamper with the words Jesus actually used and you will actually be smarter than any Lexicon that says otherwise.
Meaning of the word within,
1with•in \wi-ˈṯẖin, -ˈthin\ adverb
[Middle English withinne, from Old English withinnan, from with + innan inwardly, within, from in] before 12th century
1 : in or into the interior : INSIDE
2 : in one’s inner thought, disposition, or character : INWARDLY 〈search within for a creative impulse —Kingman Brewster †1988〉
Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary.
There it is, take your pick, what was Jesus saying when He said, “the kingdom of God is within you”?
Forget about what the spiritual condition of these Pharisees was. When you focus on that it may lead you to the wrong conclusion. who are we to judge anyway. You quote John 8, but they may or may not have been the same people, and if they were the same people, perhaps they had a change of heart and received the kingdom.
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Carol Swenson
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I'm glad you came back ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
How do those differences in Luke and Matthew alter the meaning of the word ἐντός?.
I can't explain it in Greek, but maybe these examples in English will help.
Clean that which is within the cup. (inside)
He is within the group. (among; in the midst of)
You're within an inch of understanding. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:
Those who translated the word ἐντός in Luke 17:21 as “among,” did so purely on the bases that they did not believe that the kingdom of God could be within the Pharisees.
No, they did it because of the GRAMMAR.
Strong's Concordance
entos: within, among
Original Word: ἐντός
Part of Speech: Adverb
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from en
Definition
within, among
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
ἐντός, adverb ((from ἐν, opposed to ἐκτός), within, inside: with the genitive ἐντός ὑμῶν, within you, i. e. in the midst of you, Luke 17:21
"The genitive" is a function of grammar. It was the grammar that determined whether "within" or "among" was the correct translation.
Do you think that Strong's Concordance, the NAS Exhaustive Concordance, and Thayer's Greek Lexicon are all wrong? Do you think that all the commentaries and Bible versions that say "among" are wrong? Do you really believe that all those people conspired together to insult you as you are insulting them?
No translator worth his PhD would dare to change the meaning of the Bible based on a personal opinion.
Also, the kingdom of God is only within born-again, (regenerated by the Holy Spirit), believers in Christ as the Lord and Savior who have REPENTED of their sins.
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)
Regeneration did not occur until Pentecost.
"But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27)
If the kingdom of God had been within the Pharisees then they would have recognized God standing right in front of them, but they didn't.
I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me (John 10:14)
Here Jesus clearly states that they are not of God:
39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40“But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41“You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45“But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46“Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.” (John 8)
Did the Pharisees have the opportunity to be saved? Nicodemus was, at least I think so. And Paul was a Pharisee - he was certainly saved.
There were others too:
Acts 6:7: Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.
Acts 18:8: “Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.”
Later on we see certain Pharisees that claimed to believe but thought the law continued in the new covenant of grace. Acts 15:5: “But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” A number of the Pharisees believed on Jesus but did not let go of the Old Testament law and made a mixture which Paul condemned. (Gal.2:16,21;3:2,10-11,19, 21-23; 4:4-5; 5:4; 6:13)
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Bloodbought
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quote:
In Luke it's ἐντός ὑμῶν
In Matthew it's τό ἐντός
They aren't the same, and they don't have the same meanings.
Hi again Carol, I thought I was finished with this, but I seem to have more question’s than answers.
How do those differences in Luke and Matthew alter the meaning of the word ἐντός?.
Those who translated the word ἐντός in Luke 17:21 as “within” didn’t care what Jesus meant and didn’t put any interpretive spin on it, they just used the word “within” in the same way as it is used in Matthew 23:26.
Those who translated the word ἐντός in Luke 17:21 as “among,” did so purely on the bases that they did not believe that the kingdom of God could be within the Pharisees.
The best reason they can come up with for preferring the word “among” as opposed to “within” is the fact that the noun “cup” and “platter” in Matthew 23:26 are singular, whereas the noun “you” in Luke 17:21 is plural. But if the noun “cup” and “platter” was plural and it said “cups” and “platters” the word within would still not be a problem unless one believed that the inside of the “cups” and “platters” could not be cleansed, that is, the Pharisees hearts could not be cleansed. In that case one would be compelled to use a word such as “among” instead of within. But no one believes that the hearts of the Pharisees could not be cleansed, so the word within in Matthew 23:26 is not a problem.
If the noun “you” in Luke 17:21 had been singular instead of plural would it have made any difference? I don’t think so. I think some would still insist that the kingdom of God could not be within the Pharisees and use the word “among” as opposed to “within.”
The Kingdom Within
http://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/harris/the_kingdom_within.htm
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Carol Swenson
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Biblical Greek is not only a foreign language, but also an ancient language. We have to understand that there are both cultural and language differences. (English didn't even exist 2000 years ago.)
In modern English, we define "there" as:
adverb
1.
in or at that place (opposed to here ): She is there now.
2.
at that point in an action, speech, etc.: He stopped there for applause.
3.
in that matter, particular, or respect: His anger was justified there.
4.
into or to that place; thither: We went there last year.
5.
(used by way of calling attention to something or someone): There they go.
pronoun
7.
(used to introduce a sentence or clause in which the verb comes before its subject or has no complement): There is no hope.
8.
that place: He comes from there, too.
9.
that point.
noun
10.
that state or condition: I'll introduce you to her, but you're on your own from there on.
adjective
11.
(used for emphasis, especially after a noun modified by a demonstrative adjective): Ask that man there.
interjection
12.
(used to express satisfaction, relief, encouragement, approval, consolation, etc.): There! It's done.
Idioms
13.
been there, done that,
A common English word can be defined in all these different ways depending on how it's used.
In the same way, Greek words have different meanings depending on how they're used and what words they're used with.
In Luke it's ἐντός ὑμῶν
In Matthew it's τό ἐντός
They aren't the same, and they don't have the same meanings.
We can’t just look at the English word “there” and say it means in or at that place because the grammar and context alter the meaning.
Likewise, we can’t just look at the Greek word ἐντός and say it means within because the grammar and context alter the meaning.
I'm not saying that Greek is like English. I'm just trying to show how a word can change meaning depending on how it's used.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
http://biblehub.com/ has numerous versions of the Bible, the interlinear, lexicons, and more. It's a great resource.
Great site, thanks
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Carol Swenson
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I wish I did help your understanding because you have helped me in the past, but I don't think I did help. I tried to though.
http://biblehub.com/ has numerous versions of the Bible, the interlinear, lexicons, and more. It's a great resource.
Sorry, but substituting a word from the dictionary for the actual Greek Bible manuscript is not a good thing to do.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Oh my goodness. You only read the last couple of lines in that post.
I did read the lexicon entry. It’s basically the same as BDAG I posted earlier.
quote:
I looked at Luke17:21 in 10 different versions of Greek, and not a single one reads ἐντός σύ. Not even the King James lexicon. Where did you get that?
I have shown the Lemma, dictionary form of the word. You have shown the manuscript text.
Isn’t it interesting that all those manuscripts read ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστιν, (the kingdom of God within you is) and yet some Bible translators think “among” or “in the midst” is better than “within.” More translations than the old KJV use the word “within,” others do not.
Luke 17:21 (1901 ASV)
21neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luke 17:21 (KJV 1900)
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luke 17:21 (NCV)
21 People will not say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ because God’s kingdom is within you.”
Luke 17:21 (NIV84)
21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”
Luke 17:21 (NLT)
21 You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is already among you.”
Luke 17:21 (NRSV)
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you.”
Luke 17:21 (RSV)
21 nor will they say, ‘Lo, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”
Luke 17:21 (TNIV)
21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
Luke 17:21 (ESV)
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”
I think this may be all I have to say on this topic.
Thanks for helping my understanding.
God bless.
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Carol Swenson
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Oh my goodness. You only read the last couple of lines in that post.
This topic has been a good study, but I think I'll move on to other things now.
Wait...hold on there a minute.
I looked at Luke17:21 in 10 different versions of Greek, and not a single one reads ἐντός σύ. Not even the King James lexicon. Where did you get that?
SBL Greek New Testament 2010
οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν· Ἰδοὺ ὧδε ἤ· Ἐκεῖ· ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστιν.
Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν Ἰδοὺ ὧδε ἤ Ἐκεῖ· ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστιν.
Westcott and Hort 1881
οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν Ἰδοὺ ὧδε ἤ Ἐκεῖ· ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστίν.
Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν Ἰδοὺ ὧδε ἤ Ἐκεῖ· ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστίν.
RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν, Ἰδοὺ ὧδε, ἤ, Ἰδοὺ ἐκεῖ. Ἰδοὺ γάρ, ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστίν.
Greek Orthodox Church 1904
οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν ἰδοὺ ὧδε ἤ ἰδοὺ ἐκεῖ· ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστιν.
Tischendorf 8th Edition
οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν· ἰδοὺ ὧδε ἤ, ἐκεῖ· ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστιν.
Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν, Ἰδοὺ ὧδε, ἤ, Ἰδοὺ ἐκεῖ. ἰδοὺ γάρ, ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστιν.
Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν Ἰδού, ὧδε ἤ ἰδού, Ἐκεῖ Ἰδού, γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστιν
UBS Greek New Testament
οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν, Ἰδοὺ ὧδε ἤ, Ἐκεῖ, ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστιν.
Oh, and look! The King James editors saw the error of their ways!
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) King James 2000 Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.
quote:
The intent of King James 2000 is to keep every KJV word the same, unless a misunderstanding or a gross word order "error" (in today's usage) must be averted. All punctuation is left the same, including omission of quotation marks, in order to keep the rhythm and pattern of KJV memorization intact.
http://life-equals-jesus.org/Couric/KJ2Khome.html
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Bloodbought
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The word εν ὑμῖν (in you) in Colossians 3:16 is not the same as ἐντός σύ (within you) in Luke 17 21.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Did you see my post from Thayer's Lexicon?
Yes, that’s a different word in Greek. That word is translated “in” in the KJV.
quote:
The Pharisees in Luke 16 were probably not the same ones as those who asked when the kingdom would come because in Luke 17:11 Jesus is on the way to Jerusalem. He's traveling.
Good observation.
Perhaps they were not the same, but the Pharisees were all the same religious sect and would have the same knowledge.
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Carol Swenson
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Did you see my post from Thayer's Lexicon?
The Pharisees in Luke 16 were probably not the same ones as those who asked when the kingdom would come because in Luke 17:11 Jesus is on the way to Jerusalem. He's traveling.
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Bloodbought
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I'm more concerned for now with what the Pharisees meant by "kingdom of God".
Back up to Luke 16:13–16
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
I believe it was this last phrase in Luke 16:16 “since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it” that prompted the Pharisees to ask the question, “when the kingdom of God should come” Luke 17:20. The Pharisees wanted to know when the kingdom of God was coming. Jesus said don’t look for a kingdom that you can see and observe because the kingdom of God is within you. They had received kingdom preaching for some time, around three years and in that sense the kingdom of God was within them. I think this interpretation has as much validity as any. If the good news of the kingdom that they had received and was within them did not convert them then nothing would.
Making the Greek word ἐντὸς meaning “within, inside” to mean “among” or “in the midst of” makes no sense.
If we try using the word “among” or “in the midst of” instead of the word” within” in Matthew 23:26, it doesn’t sound right.
All those commentaries and many more say “among” is better. That is because no one wants to say that the kingdom of God could be within the unbelieving Pharisees, but there is a difference in the kingdom being within them, and them being within the kingdom. The Pharisees were not translated from the kingdom of Satan into the kingdom of Gods dear Son, but the good news of the kingdom was within them and they refused to press into it.
I’m not a theologian, but I don’t like the idea of making the scripture fit a certain interpretation by changing word meaning. Rather all interpretation should fit the scripture.
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Carol Swenson
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Instead of a word war, which is fun and I enjoy it, I'm more concerned for now with what the Pharisees meant by "kingdom of God".
quote:
Of course the Pharisees did not believe the kingdom of God was within them, because they were unbelievers.
Then why, dear friend, is it so important to you that Jesus told them the kingdom of God was within them? The Lord would not say something untrue.
Were they even asking about the spiritual kingdom of God? No. They knew nothing about it. Remember when Jesus was trying to explain it to Nicodemus?
John 3:1-3 (NASB)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Those Pharisees in Luke 17 were asking about the Messianic Kingdom, the Millennial Kingdom.
17:20-21. Although Jewish people acknowledged that God ruled in the present, most especially longed for God’s unchallenged rule, or kingdom, in the future. Jewish teachers disputed when the kingdom would come: either at a set time unknown to mortals, or whenever all Israel repented. By teaching that the kingdom as God’s reign is somehow present, Jesus implies that something of the kingdom—such as the messianic king—is already among them.
Bible Background Commentary
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17:20-21. Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come. This was a logical question to ask, for He had been preaching for quite some time that the kingdom was at hand.
Jesus responded to the question in two ways. First, He said that the Pharisees would not be able to tell of the coming of the kingdom through their observations. Second, he told them that the kingdom was in their midst.
The term within you is often misunderstood. The Pharisees were rejecting Him as the Messiah and were not believers. (They were distinct from the disciples Jesus addressed beginning in v. 22.) Thus it would not make sense for Jesus to have told the Pharisees that the kingdom of God was within them as if it were the spiritual kingdom. It is better to translate the phrase “within you” (entos hymōn) as “in your midst.” Some feel that the force of the expression is “within your possession or within your reach.”
Jesus’ point was that He was standing right in their midst. All they needed to do was acknowledge that He is indeed the Messiah who could bring in the kingdom—and then the kingdom would come.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary
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17:20-21 Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There it is!' For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you." (NRSV)
Up to this point in the chapter, Jesus was explaining how his followers should live. From 17:20 to 18:8, as a response to a question brought by the Pharisees, Jesus discussed when the kingdom of God was coming. The Pharisees were expecting an altogether different kind of kingdom than what Jesus would bring. They may have thought, since Jesus had claimed to be the Messiah, that he would soon inaugurate his kingdom. They may also have been testing him since they had not seen him doing what a king would do to prepare himself for a takeover. They wondered when this kingdom he kept talking about was going to arrive.
The Pharisees did not understand that the kingdom of God had already arrived with Jesus. Jesus had made this clear in 11:20. In 19:11-27, he will explain that the full expression of God's kingdom is yet to come (and is still to come). These are the days "between"—the kingdom has arrived in Jesus Christ, yet it has not arrived in its fullness. Believers are waiting for it, as Jesus has already described (12:35-48), knowing that it could come at any moment. So Jesus' words here explain the nature of the kingdom now.
Jesus explained that the kingdom is not coming with things that can be observed; in other words, no one can project when it will come by looking for supernatural signs. Nor will anyone be able to point to anything that proves that the kingdom is here or there. The kingdom of God was among the people because Jesus was among them.
Life Application Bible Commentary
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Faith provides certainty (Luke 17:20-37)
We live in a world where things are not always as they seem—where, in fact, reality is often hidden by illusion. It is faith that frees us to see through appearances, and know things as they really are.
The Pharisees were men without faith. They insisted on testing reality by sight and senses. What they could see and feel and understand—only that—would they take as real. So they plagued Jesus: "When will the kingdom of God come?" (see Luke 17:20)
They were thinking, of course, of the promised messianic glory, the outward pomp and show. The Lord knew this all too well. "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed," Jesus responded (Luke 17:20, NASB). Instead, "The kingdom of God is in your midst." Other versions offer various translations. The kingdom of God is "among" you. The old King James even says "within" you.
What Jesus meant, of course, was that God's kingdom was already present in the person of the King! The kingdom was there, then!
The Pharisees just couldn't see it. All they saw was a Carpenter from Galilee; a dusty fanatic who had attacked them and their position. All they saw was a hated enemy whose miracles of healing roused their enmity and fear, instead of their wonder and compassion. The King was there! But there were no outward signs of glory then. Only faith's eye could recognize Him, and believe.
The Teacher's Commentary
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Carol Swenson
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 Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1787: ἐντός
ἐντός, adverb (from ἐν, opposed to ἐκτός), within, inside: with the genitive ἐντός ὑμῶν, within you, i. e. in the midst of you, Luke 17:21; within you, i. e. in your souls, a meaning which the use of the word permits but not the context;
τό ἐντός, the inside, Matthew 23:26.
The modifiers alter the meaning of the adverb ἐντός, so Luke and Matthew do not have the same meaning.
Another example, ἐντός τούτων means thereinto.
Colossians 3:16 (NASB)
16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
In this verse, the Greek for "within you" is εν ὑμῖν
English uses the same words to mean different things, but Greek is much more specific. I'm only a layman, but I've learned that much about Greek.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
I don't think that He said "within". I think He said "among". I think He was telling the Pharisees that He was right there among them as the answer to their question.
Ok, I can see why you think that, but when we dig deeper we find that the KJV is absolutely correct in the translation of the Greek word ἐντὸς as within. This particular Greek word occurs only twice in the new testiment, once in Matthew and once in Luke.
Matthew 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is (within ἐντὸς)
the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is (within ἐντὸς) you.
To translate this Greek word ἐντὸς as among is forcing a preconceived interpretation into the text that isn’t there.
The word ἐντὸς means within, inside.
① pert. to a specific area inside someth., inside, within,
② pert. to what is inside an area, content τὸ ἐ. τοῦ ποτηρίου the inside of the cup=what is in the cup
BDAG
There are several Greek words meaning “among” but not the Greek word ἐντὸς.
There is much debate about the meaning of Luke 17:21, but whatever it means there is no justification for using another word instead of the word within, just because it dosn’d seem to make sense to say to a Pharisee (the kingdom of God is within you.)
Of course the Pharisees did not believe the kingdom of God was within them, because they were unbelievers.
Anyone who wishes to see the kingdom of God must have the kingdom within when Jesus comes or calls.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Bible Research,
http://bible-researcher.blogspot.ie/2011/11/kingdom-of-god-is-within-you.html
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Carol Swenson
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(This is more or less a second part to the post above)
What is the Kingdom of God?
The kingdom of God is the rule of an eternal sovereign God over all creatures and things (Psalm 103:19; Daniel 4:3). The kingdom of God is also the designation for the sphere of salvation entered into at the new birth (John 3:5-7), and is synonymous with the “kingdom of heaven” [in this sense].
The kingdom of God embraces all created intelligence, both in heaven and earth that are willingly subject to the Lord and are in fellowship with Him. The kingdom of God is, therefore, universal in that it includes created angels and men. It is eternal, as God is eternal, and it is spiritual—found within all born-again believers. We enter the kingdom of God when we are born again, and we are then part of that kingdom for eternity. It is a relationship "born of the spirit" (John 3:5), and we have confident assurance that it is so because the Spirit bears witness with our spirits (Romans 8:16).
God is sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient and the ruler over all of His creation. However, the designation "the kingdom of God" compasses that realm which is subject to God and will be for eternity. [See: What is the dispensation of the Millennial Kingdom?]. The rest of creation will be destroyed. Only that which is part of the "kingdom of God" will remain.
http://www.gotquestions.org/kingdom-of-God.html
What is Heaven like?
Heaven is a real place described in the Bible. The word “heaven” is found 276 times in the New Testament alone. Scripture refers to three heavens. The apostle Paul was “caught up to the third heaven,” but he was prohibited from revealing what he experienced there (2 Corinthians 12:1-9).
If a third heaven exists, there must also be two other heavens. The first is most frequently referred to in the Old Testament as the “sky” or the “firmament.” This is the heaven that contains clouds, the area that birds fly through. The second heaven is interstellar/outer space, which is the abode of the stars, planets, and other celestial objects (Genesis 1:14-18).
The third heaven, the location of which is not revealed, is the dwelling place of God. Jesus promised to prepare a place for true Christians in heaven (John 14:2). Heaven is also the destination of Old Testament saints who died trusting God's promise of the Redeemer (Ephesians 4:8). Whoever believes in Christ shall never perish but have eternal life (John 3:16).
The apostle John was privileged to see and report on the heavenly city (Revelation 21:10-27). John witnessed that heaven (the new earth) possesses the “glory of God” (Revelation 21:11), the very presence of God. Because heaven has no night and the Lord Himself is the light, the sun and moon are no longer needed (Revelation 22:5).
The city is filled with the brilliance of costly stones and crystal clear jasper. Heaven has twelve gates (Revelation 21:12) and twelve foundations (Revelation 21:14). The paradise of the Garden of Eden is restored: the river of the water of life flows freely and the tree of life is available once again, yielding fruit monthly with leaves that “heal the nations” (Revelation 22:1-2). However eloquent John was in his description of heaven, the reality of heaven is beyond the ability of finite man to describe (1 Corinthians 2:9).
Heaven is a place of “no mores.” There will be no more tears, no more pain, and no more sorrow (Revelation 21:4). There will be no more separation, because death will be conquered (Revelation 20:6). The best thing about heaven is the presence of our Lord and Savior (1 John 3:2). We will be face to face with the Lamb of God who loved us and sacrificed Himself so that we can enjoy His presence in heaven for eternity.
http://www.gotquestions.org/heaven-like.html
What is the dispensation of the Millennial Kingdom?
In classic dispensationalism, there are seven dispensations. It is important to remember that dispensationalism is a theology inferred from Scripture rather than an explicitly taught doctrine of God’s Word. The value of dispensationalism lies in its systematic view of history’s different eras and the various ways in which the Ancient of Days interacts with His creation.
The seventh and final dispensation brings about the culmination of life on Earth and the closest thing yet to how God really wanted to live with us on this planet. As its name suggests, the Millennial Kingdom of Christ will last for 1,000 years.
The Millennial Kingdom is the seventh dispensation (Revelation 20:1-10).
Stewards: The resurrected Old Testament saints, the glorified Church, and survivors of the Tribulation and their descendants
The Period: From the Second Coming of Jesus Christ until the final rebellion, a period of one thousand years
Responsibility: To be obedient, remain undefiled, and worship the Lord Jesus (Isaiah 11:3-5; Zechariah 14:9)
Failure: After Satan is loosed from the Abyss, sinful man rebels one more time (Revelation 20:7-9)
Judgment: Fire from God; the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:9-15)
Grace: Jesus Christ restores creation and rules righteously in Israel, with all saints assisting (Isaiah 11:1-5; Matthew 25:31-46; Revelation 20)
The Millennial Kingdom will be a time characterized by peace (Isaiah 11:6-7; Micah 4:3), justice (Isaiah 11:3-4), unity (Isaiah 11:10), abundance (Isaiah 35:1-2), healing (Isaiah 35:5-6), righteousness (Isaiah 35:8), joy (Isaiah 55:12), and the physical presence of Christ (Isaiah 16:5). Satan will be bound in the Abyss during this period (Revelation 20:1-3). Messiah Jesus will be the benevolent dictator ruling over the whole world (Isaiah 9:6-7; 11). The resurrected saints of all times will participate in the management of the government (Revelation 20:4-6).
The Millennial Kingdom is measurable and comes after the Kingdom of God (embodied in Jesus Christ) came to man during the dispensation of Grace. [The Millennial Kingdom was known as the Messianic kingdom or kingdom of God during Bible times based on Old Testament prophecies]. On Jesus’ first visit to the earth, He brought grace; at His Second Coming He will execute justice and usher in the Millennium. Jesus mentioned His glorious return at His trial before the Sanhedrin (Mark 14:62), and He was referring to the Millennial Kingdom when He taught His disciples to pray, “Thy kingdom come” (Matthew 6:10, KJV).
The rebellion at the end of the Millennial Kingdom seems almost incredible. Mankind will have been living in a perfect environment with every need cared for, overseen by a truly just government (Isaiah 11:1-5), yet they still try to do better. Man simply cannot maintain the perfection that God requires. Mankind follows Satan any chance he gets.
At the end of the Millennium, the final rebellion is crushed, and Satan will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10). Then comes the Great White Throne Judgment where all the unrighteous of all of the dispensations will be judged according to their works and also cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).
After the final judgment, God and His people live forever in the New Jerusalem on a new earth with a new heaven (Revelation 21). God’s plan of redemption will have been completely realized, and the redeemed will know God and enjoy Him forever.
http://www.gotquestions.org/dispensation-of-Millennial-Kingdom.html
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And God bless you too, Bloodbought. Please remember that I try to write (with feeble fingers) for guests and new believers, so I'm sure I cover things that you already know.
quote:
The kingdom is present wherever the King is. Those who have a personal relationship with the King and acknowledge His kingship have the kingdom in their hearts. Preaching Christ is the same as preaching the kingdom and those who receive Christ receive the kingdom.
The kingdom inherits our spirit, but we cannot inherit the kingdom of God in our flesh and blood bodies with the sin nature. Our resurrected body will be without a sin nature like Christ’s body.
The Kingdom of God was within the company of the Pharisees in the person of Christ, but they failed to recognize it and therefor they did not have the kingdom of God in their hearts. The Greek word has two meanings, it means “within” or “among” so the KJV is also correct. Jesus explained to the Pharisees, that if they understood the kingdom correctly they would realize that the kingdom is within true believers, not something external that comes with observation.
For this to be understood, we have to know what kingdom we’re talking about.
From the beginning of His ministry, Jesus had been saying that the kingdom of God was at hand, and making statements like “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." (Matthew 12:28).
The kingdom of God is explained in the next post. For now, it is spiritual and is found within all born-again believers.
The Pharisees already knew about the Old Testament concept of the kingdom of God to be all that He has created, and they were not asking about the spiritual kingdom of God. They knew nothing about being born-again of the Spirit.
Those who are resurrected or raptured are taken to the kingdom of Heaven in glorified bodies.
But the Pharisees were not asking about Heaven. In fact, before the crucifixion, everyone went to Sheol (or Hades in Greek), the saints to Paradise (Abraham’s Bosom) and the unsaved to Gehenna (the place of torment). No one ascended into Heaven until the sacrifice of Christ and His imputed righteousness. The Pharisees knew nothing about that, so they were not asking about Heaven, or even Abraham’s Bosom.
The Jew’s were hoping for the earthly kingdom that God promised to Israel. That is what we know as the Millennial Kingdom, and that is the kingdom the Pharisees were asking about. The Old Testament has numerous prophecies about this kingdom, and from what I understand it was often referred to by hopeful Jews as the kingdom of God or kingdom of Heaven. The Jews had been ruled by Gentiles for hundreds of years, and they were now under the rule of the Romans. They desperately wanted to be free.
Relation to the Old Testament (Daniel, etc.):
"Although, however, the phrase held this master position in the teaching of Jesus, it was not of His invention. It was employed before Him by John the Baptist, of whom we read, in Matthew 3:1f, "And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Indeed, the phrase is far older; for, on glancing toward the Old Testament, we come at once, in Daniel 2:44, to a passage where the young prophet, explaining to the monarch the image of gold, silver, iron and clay, which, in his dream, he had seen shattered by "a stone cut out without hands," interprets it as a succession of world-kingdoms, destined to be destroyed by "a kingdom of God," which shall last forever: and, in his famous vision of the "son of man" in Daniel 7:14, it is said, "There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." (The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.)
So, our Lord was not telling the Pharisees that God was within them. And He was not telling the Pharisees that Heaven was within them. And He was not telling them that Sheol was within them. And He was not telling them that the Millennial Kingdom was within them. He could only have been referring to Himself as the King of the promised kingdom and the embodiment of the kingdom of God, but He was not telling the Pharisees that He was within them either. Not them.
You said:
quote:
Jesus explained to the Pharisees, that if they understood the kingdom correctly they would realize that the kingdom is within true believers, not something external that comes with observation.
I respectfully disagree. Jesus did not explain anything to the Pharisees. And He did not say 'within true believers' or anything else except “you” according to this translation.
Luke 17:20–21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Then He turned to His disciples and immediately began telling them that He would be rejected by that generation, and telling them about His second coming. We know that His second coming will be the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom with Christ as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. But the Pharisees did not know that; the Pharisees rejected Him as their Messiah.
All that we know now about the indwelling Holy Spirit, about Jesus as God the Son, about His sacrificial death and His resurrection and the establishing of His church, about His mystery or spiritual kingdom, about the Rapture and Resurrection of His bride, and His future Millennial Kingdom followed by the eternal state…the Pharisees knew nothing about.
They wanted to know, as did all the Jews at that time including the apostles, when God was going to keep His promise to Israel. And in light of what Jesus immediately began telling His disciples, that is the question He was answering.
Unless we try to superimpose all that we know now onto the Pharisees of that time, for the Lord to tell them that the kingdom of God was within them simply makes no sense. In fact, because they were who they were, it would make no sense to tell them that at all.
I don't think that He said "within". I think He said "among". I think He was telling the Pharisees that He was right there among them as the answer to their question. And, of course, at His first advent He came as a humble servant, not with observation, that is, not obvious, except to those "with eyes to see and ears to hear".
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Bloodbought
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quote:
If you believe that the kingdom of God is within us, then why do you say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God?
The scripture says, “the kingdom of God is within us.” The scripture also says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
The kingdom is present wherever the King is. Those who have a personal relationship with the King and acknowledge His kingship have the kingdom in their hearts. Preaching Christ is the same as preaching the kingdom and those who receive Christ receive the kingdom.
The kingdom inherits our spirit, but we cannot inherit the kingdom of God in our flesh and blood bodies with the sin nature. Our resurrected body will be without a sin nature like Christ’s body.
The Kingdom of God was within the company of the Pharisees in the person of Christ, but they failed to recognize it and therefor they did not have the kingdom of God in their hearts. The Greek word has two meanings, it means “within” or “among” so the KJV is also correct. Jesus explained to the Pharisees, that if they understood the kingdom correctly they would realize that the kingdom is within true believers, not something external that comes with observation.
God bless.
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Carol Swenson
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I know the King James and some other versions translate the Greek word as "within", but most versions don't.
Our Lord was speaking to the Pharisees. He was not telling the Pharisees that God's Kingdom was something that existed within their hearts or minds—these are the same people He pronounced the woes on and called vipers.
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? (Matthew 23:33)
Rather than telling the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God was something in their hearts, Jesus was telling them that they were so spiritually blind they couldn't recognize the very personification of that Kingdom in Him. He is the King, and He was standing right there in front of them.
The Greek word entos, translated "within," is better translated "in the midst of" or “among”.
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Greek Number: 1787
Greek Word: ἐντός
Transliterated Word: entos
Root: from 1722;
Definition: within, among:--
List of English Words and Number of Times Used
inside (1),
midst (1).
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(NASB)
20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
(NLT)
20 One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, “When will the Kingdom of God come?” Jesus replied, “The Kingdom of God can’t be detected by visible signs. 21 You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is already among you.”
The next verse says,
22 And He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. (Luke 17:22 NASB)
He was telling His disciples that even though He was right there with them then, He knew what was going to happen. This verse makes better sense if He had just told the Pharisees that the kingdom was among them.
The Holy Spirit is within us now, the Spirit of the King, not His kingdom. On the other hand, His mystery kingdom, the values of His kingdom, exist within all those who love Him as Lord and Savior...but not the Pharisees.
Paul wrote:
for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Romans 14:17)
We should be living by kingdom values now, led by the Holy Spirit of the King of Kings, but the earthly kingdom is a future reality. According to Matthew 24, The Glorious Appearing of the Lord will come at the end of the Tribulation.
29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:29-30)
Then the Lord will invite those faithful to Him into His kingdom.
31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.’ (Matthew 25:31-34)
To answer my question about the fulfillment of this verse...
Luke 22:14-16 (NASB)
14 When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him.
15 And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
...Wiersbe wrote:
"Our Lord's words in Luke 22:16 indicate that there would be no more Passover on God's calendar. The next feast would be the great "kingdom feast" when He would return to establish His rule on earth (Luke 22:28-30; 13:24-30; Matt. 8:11-12). He saw beyond the suffering to the glory, beyond the cross to the crown; and in His love, He reached out to include His friends."
Not only the Apostles, but the Tribulation Saints, and all of us who have been raptured or resurrected into our glorified bodies will be there with Him in His kingdom, including the Old Testament saints.
Daniel 7:18 (NASB)
'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'
Daniel 7:-27 (NASB)
'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Luke 17:20–21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
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If you believe that the kingdom of God is within us, then why do you say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God?
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Bloodbought
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I understand that the kingdom of God is (1)all created things, (2)all that are willingly submitted to the will of God, (3)present now within us, (4)Heaven, (5)and a future Earthly kingdom. But I don't know if the future Earthly kingdom is the Millennial Kingdom or the eternal state of the New Heavens and Earth.
Please listen to these two interesting sermons.
The Rapture,
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=71209234432
The Millennial,
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=72809182102
Luke 17:20–21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
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WildB
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Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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Thank you. What a nice thing to say. I look forward to meeting you too, Bloodbought.
John was on the island of Patmos when he wrote the Book of Revelation. Today, Patmos is beautiful. Forbes in a 2009 research has named Patmos as Europe's Most Idyllic Place to live, due to the fact that "Patmos has evolved over the centuries but has not lost its air of quiet tranquility, which is one reason why people that know it return again and again."
But in John's day it was a Roman penal colony. It was very likely not beautiful or hospitable like it is now. He was exiled there for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
“Patmos” means “my killing” (Dictionary of Scripture Proper Names by J.B. Jackson).
It was a sterile island. “Sterile” meaning “1. unable to produce offspring; infertile. 2. free from living . . . 3. (of plants or their parts) not producing or bearing seeds, fruit, spores, stamens, or pistils. 4. lacking inspiration or vitality; fruitless” ~ Collins).
I imagine that John was very hungry and thirsty, and burned by the sun. The words of the Lord would have been especially sweet to him as he wrote them for all of us.
Revelation 7:16
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Our Lord was hungry after His resurrection.
Luke 24:41-43 (NASB)
41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.
But as you said, we will not be hungry.
There will be the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven after the Rapture. The marriage supper can last as long as a week. That one week in Heaven could be the entire seven years of the Tribulation.
Revelation 19:7-9 (NASB)
7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are true words of God."
And there will be the anticipated Passover Feast.
Luke 22:14-18 (NASB)
14 When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him.
15 And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
17 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves;
18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."
I understand that the kingdom of God is (1)all created things, (2)all that are willingly submitted to the will of God, (3)present now within us, (4)Heaven, (5)and a future Earthly kingdom. But I don't know if the future Earthly kingdom is the Millennial Kingdom or the eternal state of the New Heavens and Earth.
During the Millennial Kingdom reign, Israel will practice the sacrifices and feasts, which will include Passover. The Bride will reign with Christ, so I suppose we will participate in the feasts.
But, during the Millennial Kingdom, people will be born who reject Christ. They won't deny His existence or authority since He will be right there on the Earth, but they will reject righteousness and desire to live in sin. At the end of the Millennial Age, Satan will be set loose to gather the rebels together as an army, but they will all be destroyed. With this in mind, can it be said that the Millennial Kingdom is the kingdom of God even though there are sinners?
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
So, when will we celebrate the anticipated Passover with the Lord? Or will we celebrate the Lord's Supper with Him?
What do you think?
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Bloodbought
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Apparently our resurrected bodies will still need to be fed, but we will never hunger.
Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Nice to meet you on this message board Carol, and look forward to meeting you in paradise.
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Carol Swenson
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I don’t know if Jesus had ever any sexual desires. He didn’t seem to have, and in His flesh He was sinless, so He didn’t require any change at His resurrection, but in our resurrection bodies, we would receive at least one change, where we would be sexless like the angels; and therefore marriage would no longer exist. In the eternal state there will be no need for marriage, and the continuance of the race.
That is true. But I think there is a lot more involved.
The body is sinless. It is an amazing, very complicated organism made of about 100 trillion cells in an average adult. It’s only desires are God given desires – air, food, water, etc. Sin is man’s moral decision to disobey God; the body is not capable of making decisions beyond its own basic functions.
The body is subject to corruption and death because of the moral decision made in Eden.
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22
Adam’s body was made from dust, so, because of his sin, our bodies return to dust. But Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and not a descendant of Adam. Through Him we are reborn of the Holy Spirit. For now the Spirit is given as an earnest - something of value given by one person to another to bind a contract. At the resurrection of believers, that contract will be fulfilled by God.
We are to be like Jesus Christ. We will NOT be deity like Him; we will NOT ever be a member of the Holy Trinity. But we will be like Jesus in every way pleasing to God.
It pleased God to resurrect the body of Jesus.
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 1 Corinthians 15:20
Resurrection doesn’t mean just to bring it back to life, as Jesus brought several people back to life who died again later on. And today medical technicians bring people back to life every day. Resurrection also doesn’t mean to create a new body, leaving the old one behind. I suppose that would be called “recreate.”
Resurrection is something unique, something that only God can do, and perhaps only God can understand. But what we do understand is that Jesus was resurrected in His same body as the firstfruits, and we will be resurrected to be like Him. Firstfruits means first of a kind. His same body was resurrected; our same bodies will be resurrected, only better. We were born and die in Adam. We are reborn (resurrected) by the power of God.
A spiritual body does not mean an immaterial body, made only of Spirit. We will not be ghosts, and we will not be angels. The angels were created before human beings. The angels are a different life form, a different species so to speak. They are the heavenly host.
Nehemiah 9:6 (NASB)
6 "You alone are the LORD. You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them. You give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You.
We were created to have physical bodies to live on and care for the Earth, the garden. We were created to have a close and loving relationship with God. So I imagine that to have spiritual bodies means that we will be restored to the state of perfection that Adam and Eve were in before the fall, except there will be no marriage. We will be perfect and close to God. I believe a spiritual body will walk by the Spirit, because the immoral nature of man will no longer exist. We will have perfect bodies suited to our perfect morality, our perfect souls, and our joyous service to our Lord Jesus Christ. We will have bodies suited to the indwelling Holy Spirit.
After the fall, Adam and Eve were sent out of Eden to live on a cursed Earth. We will be made suitable to live on an Eden-like Earth once again, living in the presence of God.
I don't know about you, but I find this thrilling. I love God's creation; I am constantly in awe and delighted by the work of His hands. I think I could happily spend eternity learning all about what He has made. And besides, I want to pet the tigers, and play with baby bears...
Revelation 21:1-4 (NASB)
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
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Bloodbought
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I don’t know if Jesus had ever any sexual desires. He didn’t seem to have, and in His flesh He was sinless, so He didn’t require any change at His resurrection, but in our resurrection bodies, we would receive at least one change, where we would be sexless like the angels; and therefore marriage would no longer exist. In the eternal state there will be no need for marriage, and the continuance of the race.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
I believe our existing body is only the seed that will produce our spiritual body that will be fitted for the eternal state.
1 Corinthians 15:35–38
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
2 Corinthians 5:1–6
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
"Our resurrection
Paul tells us that we will be changed — metamorphosized (1 Cor. 15:51). The body will then be imperishable, immortal, glorious, powerful and spiritual (vs. 42-44, 53). But yet it will be a body, and it will have some continuity with the old body.
Paul compares this change to the sprouting of a seed (v. 37). A tree does not look at all like an acorn, but it has physical continuity with the acorn. A butterfly looks nothing like a caterpillar, but it has physical continuity with it. Our metamorphosis may involve an even more dramatic change in what we are like. We cannot predict what it will be like any more than we can predict whether some unfamiliar seed will grow into a tree, or a flower.
The point is that there is continuity as well as change. It is not like the old body is totally abandoned, nor is it totally kept. We do not worry about reassembling all of the atoms that were once part of our bodies (that would be impossible, for bodies decompose after death and their atoms become atoms of other things, sometimes of other people's bodies). But Paul still talks about the resurrection of the body."
Read more,
http://www.gci.org/prophecy/resbody
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
1Cr 15:50
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does [fn]the perishable inherit [fn]the imperishable.
1 Corinthians 15:50
15:50. What about those who are not dead at Christ’s coming? Paul now turned to answer that unexpressed question. With all that had preceded about the need for the natural body to give way to the spiritual, it followed that flesh and blood, the natural body, could not enter the eternal state (cf. vv. 24–28).
The Bible Knowledge Commentary
"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." Luke 24:39
Our Lord had His own body. It was not in the tomb. It was flesh and bones. It was Him, Himself. It was transformed, but not something completely different. It's interesting that He had the wounds of the crucifixion, but apparently not the wounds of the scourging or the crown of thorns.
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Carol Swenson
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Amen Caretaker! I also agree with Kindgo!
The commentary Bloodbought posted from the Believer's Bible Commentary states:
quote:
15:43 The present body is sown in dishonor. There is nothing very majestic or glorious about a dead body. However, this same body will be raised in glory. It will be free from wrinkles, scars, the marks of age, overweight, and the traces of sin.
It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. With the coming of old age, weakness increases until death itself strips a man of all strength whatever. In eternity, the body will not be subject to these sad limitations, but will be possessed of powers that it does not have at the present time. For instance, the Lord Jesus Christ in resurrection was able to enter a room where the doors were locked.
I bolded a different part than he did to make my point. The same body is changed.
Here are Scriptures with the Strong's Greek Number, definitions, and some commentary to illustrate the fact that our same bodies are resurrected. The body is transformed, but it's the same body. Just as a new believer is changed when he becomes spiritually regenerated and his friends see a difference in him. He is the same person, but different, transformed.
Scripture
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (NASB)
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
1 Corinthians 15:20 (NASB)
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (NASB)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
The same Greek word is used to describe the resurrection of Christ and our future resurrection.
Greek NASB Number: 1453
Greek Word: ἐγείρω
Transliterated Word: egeirô
Root: a prim. vb.;
Definition: to waken, to raise up:--
(New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible)
Definitions of Resurrection:
RESURRECTION OF THE BODY (Gk. anastasis, “to make to stand,” or “rise up”). The reunion of the bodies and souls of men that have been separated by death.
The teaching of the Scriptures sums up as follows: (1) The body shall rise again. The integrity of man’s being, a creature of soul and body, shall be restored. (2) In some sense the identity of the body shall be preserved. (3) The body is to be changed and refined to fit it for the new surroundings of the future life. For the saints it is to be a “glorified body.” (4) The resurrection of the righteous will take place at the coming of Christ (1 Thes. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:53), of the unsaved at the great white throne judgment after the Kingdom age (Rev. 2:11-15). (5) The power is of God in Christ, who said, “I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25).
(The New Unger's Bible Dictionary.)
Jesus’ preaching presupposed a doctrine of resurrection. Opposition by the Sadducees, who denied the resurrection, gave Jesus the opportunity to assert His own thought on the matter (Mark 12:18-27; Matt. 22:23-33; Luke 20:27-38; compare Deut. 25:5-10).
The greatest biblical exponent of resurrection was Paul. For him, resurrection was the final event which would usher Christians out of the bodily struggle of the present age into the bodily glory which will accompany Jesus’ second coming (Phil. 3:20-21). In resurrection, God’s new creation will reach completion (2 Cor. 5:17-21). The bedrock of hope for Christian resurrection is the resurrection of Christ, the foundation of gospel preaching (1 Cor. 15:12-20). Those who follow Christ are organically related to Christ in His resurrection from the dead; Christ is the first fruits of an upcoming harvest (1 Cor. 15:20-23). Destruction awaits those who do not follow Christ (Phil. 3:19).
Paul’s discourses on the nature of the resurrected body broadens the Old Testament idea of a restored Israel to include the redemption of persons complete with bodies. Paul viewed the human person as a psychosomatic unity. He recognizes no truth in the Greek idea of a separation of body and soul. Persons live beyond time not because of any inherent immortality but because God gives them life (2 Cor. 5:1-10). Those united to Christ in faith become not only one with Him in spirit but also one with Him in body (1 Cor. 6:15). The resurrected body will be a spiritual body, different from the present physical body (1 Cor. 15:35-50); but it will have continuity with the present body because Christ redeems the whole person (Rom. 8:23).
(Holman Bible Dictionary)
Resurrection of the dead
The qualities of the resurrection body will be different from those of the body laid in the grave (1Co 15:53, 54; Php 3:21); but its identity will nevertheless be preserved. It will still be the same body (1Co 15:42-44) which rises again.
As to the nature of the resurrection body, (1) it will be spiritual (1Co 15:44), i.e., a body adapted to the use of the soul in its glorified state, and to all the conditions of the heavenly state; (2) glorious, incorruptible, and powerful (1Co 15:54); (3) like unto the glorified body of Christ (Php 3:21); and (4) immortal (Rev 21:4).
Christ's resurrection secures and illustrates that of his people."
(1.) Because his resurrection seals and consummates his redemptive power; and the redemption of our persons involves the redemption of our bodies (Rom 8:23).
(2.) Because of our federal and vital union with Christ (1Co 15:21, 22; 1Th 4:14).
(3.) Because of his Spirit which dwells in us making our bodies his members (1Co 6:15; Rom 8:11).
(4.) Because Christ by covenant is Lord both of the living and the dead (Rom 14:9). This same federal and vital union of the Christian with Christ likewise causes the resurrection of the believer to be similar to as well as consequent upon that of Christ (1Co 15:49; Php 3:21; 1Jn 3:2)." Hodge's Outlines of Theology.
(Illustrated Bible Dictionary: And Treasury of Biblical History, Biography, Geography, Doctrine, and Literature)
Commentary
Because the idea of resurrection was foreign to Greek thought, there existed no technical words in Greek to describe it. The Bible uses two common words, one meaning "to raise, to arouse" and the other "to awaken."
Christ promised the believer an inner transformation. And there was transformation.
Believers found striking changes were taking place—within themselves, and in one another.
The culminating experience in our personal transformation is to be resurrection. Yet, some in Corinth denied this completion. They carried over into their new faith the typical Greek attitude toward life after death; they could not accept the idea of a bodily resurrection.
It is our destiny to be like Jesus. What is more, the Good News of Jesus rests on the fact of our Lord's own resurrection. Christ was raised bodily from the dead. His resurrection both demonstrates the power of God, and is the ultimate proof of His ability to provide forgiveness. Jesus' resurrection and our own are so intimately intertwined that to doubt either constitutes a denial of the Gospel message itself!
Paul linked the resurrection of the believer to the resurrection of Jesus. If Jesus was raised, how can some say, "There is no resurrection of the dead"? If there is no resurrection, then Christ could not have been raised, and in that case "your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."
It was only natural that in the debate over resurrection some should inquire, "Well, what will this resurrection body be like, anyway?" Others challenged, "How can men rise when their bodies have decayed?" Paul replied that the objection is foolish. A dead-looking seed is planted in the ground, and a vital, living plant appears. Just as God gives the planted seed a form appropriate for its new life, so the resurrected saint will have a glorious body appropriate to full transformation.
(Excerpts from The Teacher's Commentary)
15:52 The change will take place instantly, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. The last trumpet here does not mean the end of the world, or even the last trumpet mentioned in Revelation. Rather, it refers to the trumpet of God which will sound when Christ comes into the air for His saints (1 Thess. 4:16). When the trumpet sounds, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. What a tremendous moment that will be, when the earth and the sea will yield up the dust of all those who have died trusting in Christ down through the centuries! It is almost impossible for the human mind to take in the magnitude of such an event; yet the humble believer can accept it by faith.
(From the Believer’s Bible Commentary)
Even Christ’s own earthly body was “flesh and blood” (Heb. 2:14) and had to be transformed before He could return to the Father. The human body is renewed every seven years, but that does not prevent its aging, deterioration, and eventual death. The human body is perishable. It is not suited for and cannot inherit the imperishable. It must be made different in order to inherit heaven, and it will be made different. “It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body” (1 Cor. 15:42–44). Like the seed that is planted, it continues its identity, but in a radically and wonderfully different form.
But what about believers who are living when Christ returns? Anticipating that question, Paul continues, Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep. As pointed out several times before, in the New Testament mystery always refers to that which had before been hidden and unknown but which is now revealed. The apostle now reveals that Christians who are alive when the Lord returns will not have to die (sleep) in order for their bodies to be changed. Those “who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:17). As believers are resurrected or caught up they shall all be changed.
(From 1 Corinthians. MacArthur New Testament Commentary)
15:57. The victory meant here, of course, is the victory over death and the grave. Thanks be to God, who delivers us from the power of death, redeeming even our bodies from the grave, and making us share in everlasting life. This is done through Jesus Christ our Lord, that is, our divine possessor and absolute ruler. It is through him, and through him alone.
(From A Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians. CHARLES HODGE)
THIS passage begins with the triumphant ringing out of the great fact which changes all the darkness of an earthly life without a heavenly hope into a blaze of light. All the dreariness for humanity, and all the vanity for Christian faith and preaching, vanish, like ghosts at **** -crow, when the Resurrection of Jesus rises sun-like on the world's night. It is a historical fact, established by the evidence proper for such,—namely, the credible testimony of eye-witnesses. They could attest His rising, but the knowledge of the worldwide significance of it comes, not from testimony, but from revelation. Those who saw Him risen join to declare: 'Now is Christ risen from the dead,' but it is a higher Voice that goes on to say, 'and become the first-fruits of them that slept.'
That one Man risen from the grave was like the solitary sheaf of paschal first-fruits, prophesying of many more, a gathered harvest that will fill the great Husbandman's barns. The Resurrection of Jesus is not only a prophecy, showing, as it and it alone does, that death is not the end of man, but that life persists through death and emerges from it, like a buried river coming again flashing into the light of day, but it is the source or cause of the Christian's resurrection. The oneness of the race necessitated the diffusion through all its members of sin and of its consequence—physical death. If the fountain is poisoned, all the stream will be tainted. If men are to be redeemed from the power of the grave, there must be a new personal centre of life; and union with Him, which can only be effected by faith, is the condition of receiving life from Him, which gradually conquers the death of sin now, and will triumph over bodily death in the final resurrection.
(From Expositions of Holy Scripture - 1 Corinthians)
Today, we have a "natural body," that is, a body suited to an earthly environment. We received this body from our first parent, Adam: he was made of dust, and so are we (Gen. 2:7). But the resurrection body is suited to a spiritual environment. In His resurrection body, Jesus was able to move quickly from place to place, and even walk through locked doors; yet He was also able to eat food, and His disciples were able to touch Him and feel Him (Luke 24:33-43; John 20:19-29).
The point Paul was making was simply this: The resurrection body completes the work of redemption and gives to us the image of the Savior. We are made in the image of God as far as personality is concerned, but in the image of Adam as far as the body is concerned. One day we shall bear the image of the Savior when we share in His glory.
(From the Bible Exposition Commentary - Be Wise (1 Corinthians - Wiersbe)
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Caretaker
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I agree with Sis Kathy, for in 1 Thessalonians we that are alive and remain will be caught with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air.
Christ was the first resurrected the first fruits to show the way. Some of the tombs were emptied and the dead came forth.
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/will-the-resurrection-of-the-body-be-a-physical-resurrection-from-the-dead
quote:
First, simply to speak of a "resurrection" of the dead (Matthew 22:30-31; Luke 14:14; 1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) is to imply physicality. That is what a resurrection is. The Bible has no categories for the concept of a resurrected body that remains dead and physically lying in a grave.
Second, Philippians 3:20-21 teaches us that Christ's resurrection body is the pattern of our resurrection body: "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory." We know that Christ was raised in a physical body because the disciples ate with Him after the resurrection (Acts 10:41) and touched Him (Matthew 28:9; see also John 20:27). Also, Jesus outright declared that His resurrection body was physical and touchable: "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have" (Luke 24:39; see also Acts 13:33-37). Since Christ's resurrection is the pattern of our resurrection, we will therefore be raised in a physical body as well.
Third, Romans 8:21-23 speaks of waiting for "the redemption of our bodies" (v. 23). Our bodies are not going to be thrown away. They are going to be renewed, restored, revitalized.
Fourth, Jesus speaks of the resurrection as involving the coming forth of individuals out of their tombs, which clearly indicates a physical concept of the resurrection: "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29).
Fifth, the Old Testament speaks of the resurrection as being physical: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2). Likewise, we read in Job: "I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, yet from my flesh I shall see God; Whom I myself shall behold, and whom my eyes shall see and not another. My heart faints within Me" (Job 19:25-27).
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Kindgo
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1Cr 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [fn]imperishable, and we will be changed.
the dead will be raised
What is raised if not the bodies, the spirits are already in Heaven:
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
1Cr 15:50
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does [fn]the perishable inherit [fn]the imperishable.
1 Corinthians 15:50
15:50. What about those who are not dead at Christ’s coming? Paul now turned to answer that unexpressed question. With all that had preceded about the need for the natural body to give way to the spiritual, it followed that flesh and blood, the natural body, could not enter the eternal state (cf. vv. 24–28).
The Bible Knowledge Commentary
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Kindgo
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1Cr 15:45
So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cr 15:46
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Cr 15:47
The first man is from the earth, [fn]earthy; the second man is from heaven.
1Cr 15:48
As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49
Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, [fn]we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Cr 15:50
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does [fn]the perishable inherit [fn]the imperishable.
1Cr 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cr 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [fn]imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cr 15:53
For this [fn]perishable must put on [fn]the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54
But when this [fn]perishable will have put on [fn]the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
1Cr 15:55
“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?”
1Cr 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
1Cr 15:57
but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
Job 19:26
And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
How do you interpret the following?
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
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