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Author
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Topic: Works Required for Salvation in Other Dispensations?
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Jerry Shugart
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Member # 9584
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posted
Cornelius Stam was the founder of the Berean Bible Society and in his book Things that Differ we can find Pastor Stam's basic teaching in regard to his ideas of how a sinner obtained salvation in other dispensations. He writes:
"We have no illusions as to man's utter inability to please God by works as such in any age. Man has always been saved essentially by the grace of God, through faith. There could be no other way to be saved" [emphasis added] (Stam, Things That Differ, [Berean Literature Foundation, Twelfth Printing, 1985], 15).
In other words, according to him the only thing that is "essential" in order to be saved is faith. But then he says:
"Note carefully that while God refuses works for salvation today, He required them under other dispensations" [emphasis added] (Ibid., p.21).
The word "require" means "to demand as necessary or essential" (Merriam-Webster Online).
Therefore Stam is saying that in other dispensations works were "essential" in order to be saved. That idea directly contradicts what he said earlier, that only "faith" is essential for salvation.
If "works" were essential for salvation during other dispensations then it cannot be said that salvation during those dispensations was "essentially by the grace of God through faith." That is because if "works" were essential then it is not of grace:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).
Stam himself recognized this principle, writing that "Grace is not grace if mingled with works. The two principles are mutually exclusive (Rom. 4:4,5)" (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, [Berean Literature Foundation, Second Printing, 1984], 87).
There is no doubt that the Jews of the past dispensation who believed were saved by grace, and if it is of grace then it cannot be of works (Ro.11:5-6). Peter understood that he was saved by grace, the same way that the Gentiles are saved. He said:
"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are" (Acts 15:11; NASB).
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Bloodbought
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posted
Hi Jerry and welcome,
I do not find in scripture where anyone in any dispensation as saved apart from by grace through faith.
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
The object of faith has always been Christ crucified. OT believers looked forward to the cross and NT believers look back to the cross.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
Therefore Stam is saying that in other dispensations works were "essential" in order to be saved. That idea directly contradicts what he said earlier, that only "faith" is essential for salvation.
If "works" were essential for salvation during other dispensations then it cannot be said that salvation during those dispensations was "essentially by the grace of God through faith." That is because if "works" were essential then it is not of grace:
Nice try.
Please explain this verse to the baseball fans with your theory.
Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him. and sought to kill him.
and try to reconcile it to this verse.
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
It was Graceful of the Lord to met Moses by the way in the inn and let his wife do a work and cut off the foreskin of her son.
Zipporah had the Faith in Gods word and kept the law here.
To which someones soul was saved that day.
Please read Hebrews 11 again.
http://www.justbible.com/bychapter.aspx?bookchap=B58C011.htm
God is not the author of confusion.
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
Nice try.
Please explain this verse to the baseball fans with your theory.
Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him. and sought to kill him.
Just because the Lord might kill someone who is saved does not mean that that person will lose his salvation. We can see that truth in regard to some in the Church who were partaking of the Lord's supper in a manner described as "unworthily":
"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:27-32).
quote:
and try to reconcile it to this verse.
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
There were some who falsely believed that circumcision was a work that was required for salvation. But even Stam recognized that that rite saved no one, saying "Circumcision did not justify Abraham. It was merely a 'sign,' a token; 'a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised' " (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, 91.
Stam also recognized that those who lived under the law were not justified by "works," writing that "David lived under the law. How was he justified? 'David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works' (Rom. 4:6)" [emphasis added] (Stam, Things That Differ, p.16).
If David was justified "without" works then it is certain that works were not "required" for his salvation. Stam also wrote that "In Rom. 4:1-8 the Apostle uses Abraham and David to demonstrate the validity of his argument for justification by faith, apart from works" [emphasis added] (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, p.87).
The Apostle Peter certainly undertsood that his salvation was by grace, saying the following:
"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are" (Acts 15:11; NASB).
quote:
God is not the author of confusion.
That is right and if works were required for salvation for those who lived during the dispensation of the law then common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus would not tell those people that faith was all that was required. However, that is exactly what He told them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodbought:
I do not find in scripture where anyone in any dispensation as saved apart from by grace through faith.
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all
Excellent passage. It is of faith that it might be by grace to the end that the promise might be sure to those who are of the law.
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WildB
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posted
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
In Eph. 1:13 the Apostle Paul declares that men are saved and sealed by hearing and believing "the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation." This declaration is substantiated by many other passages of Scripture. Our Lord said: "He that heareth... and believeth... hath everlasting life" (John 5:24). This at a time when sacrifices and baptism were still required for the remission of sins. Even then men had to hear and believe to be saved, for "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10:17).
Now, however, salvation is received by hearing and believing alone. Works for salvation are not merely unnecessary; they are forbidden. Today salvation is "to him that worketh not, but believeth" (Rom. 4:5). "For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9).
God has changed His dealings with men from time to time down through the ages, teaching one lesson at a time. This is why it is so important to note the dispensational distinctions in Scripture, "rightly dividing the Word of truth."
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation: "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21) and men are saved solely by faith in Christ, "being justified freely by [God's] grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24). We are saved, then, as we hear and believe what Paul calls, "the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation" (Eph. 1:13), and we are established in the faith as we obey II Tim. 2:15: "rightly dividing the Word of truth."
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WildB
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posted
Also...you say about
Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him. and sought to kill him.
That..
Just because the Lord might kill someone who is saved does not mean that that person will lose his salvation. We can see that truth in regard to some in the Church who were partaking of the Lord's supper in a manner described as "unworthily":
The verse is talking about circumcision not the Lords supper son.
The Lords supper is done in remembrance.
Circumcision was required by the Law of God.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
God is not the author of confusion.
That is right and if works were required for salvation for those who lived during the dispensation of the law then common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus would not tell those people that faith was all that was required. However, that is exactly what He told them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
How could the Lord Jesus tell those people this, as you say, when He had not been born of a virgin yet?
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
All you are doing is showing that Stam contradicts himself on this subject.
Let us examine Stam's own teaching in regard to the salvation of David, a man who lived under the Law, to see if "works" were required for salvation:
"Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden..." (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, p.17).
Stam then turns around and says the following:
"David lived under the law. How was he justified? "David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Rom. 4:6)" (Stam, Things That Differ, p.16).
If David was justified "without" works then it is certain that works were not "required" for his salvation. So we can see that Stam contradicts himself. At one place he says that "works" were "required" for David's salvation then he says that David was justified "without works".
Stam also wrote that "In Rom. 4:1-8 the Apostle uses Abraham and David to demonstrate the validity of his argument for justification by faith, apart from works" (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, p.87).
Let us look at what I said here:
If works were required for salvation for those who lived during the dispensation of the law then common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus would not tell those people that faith was all that was required. However, that is exactly what He told them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
You replied:
quote:
How could the Lord Jesus tell those people this, as you say, when He had not been born of a virgin yet?
He had already been born of a virgin when He spoke those words.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Obedience led to blessings and disobedience led to curses.
Deuteronomy 28:1 - 2 (NASB)
1“Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the LORD your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2“All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you obey the LORD your God:
Deuteronomy 28:15 (NASB)
15“But it shall come about, if you do not obey the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you.
But outward obedience is not enough.
Isaiah 29:13 - 14 (NASB)
13Then the Lord said, “Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote, 14 Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous; And the wisdom of their wise men will perish, And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed.”
Our Lord Jesus Christ taught us that outward obedience is not enough.
Matthew 23:23 (NASB)
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
We must have the Holy Spirit within us.
Galatians 5:22 - 23 (NASB)
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
No,no. Works were never required for salvation, never. Right from the first Adam salvation has been by grace through faith. Adam tried to produce his own covering of fig-leaves, but that didn't cut with God. It needed to be the covering of the sacrificial lamb produced by God Himself. In the OT works were produced by the faith of the believer, but works made no contribution to his/her salvation.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
That's right!
The regulations God gave his people begin with the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 and continue on-and-off through Numbers—and were repeated to the Israelites before they entered the Promised Land (...hence Deuteronomy, literally the "second law").
But even this law was given in the context of an already-established covenantal relationship. God begins, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt..." (Ex 20:2)—and THEN makes his demands. God didn't claim to belong to any other people on earth, but he had given himself to the family of Abraham, to be their God. The whole Mosaic code needs to be understood in this relational context of covenant grace. Though there were blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience (what we call fatherly discipline), the commandments were not a means of earning salvation. It's interesting to compare Hebrews 12 and its discussion of God's loving discipline, which follows his discussion of Old Testament saints who lived by faith (chapter 11).
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
[QUOTE]Let us look at what I said here:
If works were required for salvation for those who lived during the dispensation of the law then common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus would not tell those people that faith was all that was required. However, that is exactly what He told them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
You replied:
quote:
How could the Lord Jesus tell those people this, as you say, when He had not been born of a virgin yet?
Then you replied.
He had already been born of a virgin when He spoke those words.
Not disputing that fact.
I again show you your error.
HE DID NOT SPEAK THOSE WORDS TO THE PEOPLE YOU SAY HE SPOKE THOSE WORDS TO. THEY LIVED AND DIED WAY BEFORE CHRIST WAS BREATHING AIR ON THIS EARTH AFTER BEING BORN OF A VIRGIN.
Please stop your sillyness.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
All you are doing is showing that Stam contradicts himself on this subject.
Let us examine Stam's own teaching in regard to the salvation of David, a man who lived under the Law, to see if "works" were required for salvation:
"Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden..." (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, p.17).
THE QUOTES YOU PUT FORWARD AS STAMS are EDITED OPINION FROM THIS WEB SITE?
http://www.twonewcovenants.com/works/works1.html
Here is" Things that Differ" in total , unedited.
http://www.dovhost.com/grace-books/StamI13.pdf
Now lets be Bereans and see if what you say is so.
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Then you replied.
He had already been born of a virgin when He spoke those words.
NOT TO THE PEOPLE YOU SAY HE SPOKE THOSE WORDS TO.
I said that the Lord Jesus spoke those words to the Jews who were under the law. And that is exactly the people to which He was speaking:
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them...Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:18-19,24).
quote:
THE QUOTES YOU PUT FORWARD AS STAMS are EDITED OPINION FROM THIS WEB SITE?
http://www.twonewcovenants.com/works/works1.html
Yes, that is my site.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Then you replied.
He had already been born of a virgin when He spoke those words.
NOT TO THE PEOPLE YOU SAY HE SPOKE THOSE WORDS TO.
I said that the Lord Jesus spoke those words to the Jews who were under the law. And that is exactly the people to which He was speaking:
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them...Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:18-19,24).
quote:
THE QUOTES YOU PUT FORWARD AS STAMS are EDITED OPINION FROM THIS WEB SITE?
http://www.twonewcovenants.com/works/works1.html
Yes, that is my site.
YOU DID NOT POST ,"I said that the Lord Jesus spoke those words to the Jews "
YOU POSTED, That is right and if works were required for salvation for those who lived during the dispensation of the law then common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus would not tell those people that faith was all that was required. However, that is exactly what He told them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"
No mention of Jews. You only mentioned Abraham and David ?
"In Rom. 4:1-8 the Apostle uses Abraham and David to demonstrate the validity of his argument for justification by faith, apart from works"
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
All you are doing is showing that Stam contradicts himself on this subject.
Let us examine Stam's own teaching in regard to the salvation of David, a man who lived under the Law, to see if "works" were required for salvation:
"Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden..." (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, p.17).
THE QUOTES YOU PUT FORWARD AS STAMS are EDITED OPINION FROM THIS WEB SITE?
http://www.twonewcovenants.com/works/works1.html
Here is" Things that Differ" in total , unedited.
http://www.dovhost.com/grace-books/StamI13.pdf
Now lets be Bereans and see if what you say is so.
Here is the full paragraph quoted from Stam's book "Things That Differ".
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value. (page 17)
 Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph.
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Here is the full paragraph quoted from Stam's book "Things That Differ".
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value. (page 17)
Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph. [/QB]
Isn't it still saying that "in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation,"?
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Here is the full paragraph quoted from Stam's book "Things That Differ".
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value. (page 17)
Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph.
Isn't it still saying that "in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation,"? [/QB]
Jerry is playing the old shell game with his razzle dazzle of moving the shells/text around then tricks one into trying to pick the shell with the pee under it. Only with this type of shell game, THE SOULS of the BASEBALL FANS are at stake.
Read the info below from a web site that Jerry already has played, before you feed into any more of this sillyness that takes away from the simplicity that is in Christ.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007823
Go to the actual site where the debate was done.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13451
Debate is good, but known deception and the twisting/corrupting of text to fix the shell game for SOULs is NOT EDIFYING NOR DOES IT MINISTER GRACE. All it ministers and maintains is confusion.
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication/(postings) proceed out of your mouth(keyboard), but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers(baseball fans).
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Carol Swenson
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posted
This is confusing. WildB knows we are saved by grace through faith, Bloodbought knows it, and I know it, and Jerry seems to know it too, and teach it. And he teaches that in past dispensations God's people were saved by grace through faith.
They were required to build an arc, or travel to a distant land and wait on God's promised child and then sacrifice that child (almost), or lead the children of Israel out of Egypt, or slay a giant and be a warrior and become a king. But all of these works were based on their faith and trust in God.
In this dispensation, the Apostles were chosen by Christ and appointed to certain "works". Paul was appointed by Christ to be the Apostle to the gentiles and appointed to certain "works". The works did not save them though; on the contrary, in this dispensation and in those past, the works were accomplished BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD.
So if we all agree, what are we debating exactly?
Judging by the OP, it looks like this whole debate is based on Jerry misquoting Stam's book to make it look as if Stam is contradicting himself.
Let's look at the whole section of Stam's book that this debate is based on.
THE PRINCIPLES OF GOD
A principle, as we have used the word above, is a settled rule of morality or conduct. We respect men with principles; men who stand for the right, whatever the cost. God, of course, has the very highest principles and never deviates from them. He always did and always will hate sin. Sin always was and always will be contrary to His holy nature. In no age has this been any less so than in any other age. In like manner, God always did and always will delight in righteousness, mercy and love. God never has and never will deviate in the slightest degree from these principles.
The principle of law or justice, for example, has continued unchanged through the ages. No matter what the dispensation, when wrong is done God's sense of justice is offended. This may be simply demonstrated by three Scriptural examples:
Cain lived before the dispensation of the law by Moses. Cain murdered his brother Abel. Was this right or wrong? Did he get into trouble over it? He did, although the written law had not yet been given.
David lived under the law of Moses. He also committed murder. Was this right or wrong? Wrong, of course, and he also got into trouble over it.
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. Suppose we should commit murder, would that be right or wrong? Would we get into trouble over it - with God? Would the fact that Christ bore our sins on Calvary, make murder any more right? Would God look upon it as less sinful because it took place under the dispensation of grace?
You say, in the case of the true believer today, the full legal penalty for the sin would still have been borne by Christ and, though he knew it not, David too was forgiven on this ground. But does not the very fact that David's sins and ours were paid for, rather than overlooked, prove that the principles of law and justice remain fixed?
The principle of grace is equally unchangeable. This may be simply demonstrated by one passage of Scripture: Rom. 4:1-6:
Abraham lived before the dispensation of the law. How was he justified? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom.4:3).
David lived under the law. How was he justified? "David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Rom. 4:6).
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. How are we justified? "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"(Rom. 4:5).
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value.
I think Jerry misunderstands what Stam wrote, and he certainly did not quote Stam fairly.
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Jerry Shugart
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quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
I think Jerry misunderstands what Stam wrote, and he certainly did not quote Stam fairly.
Please be specific and tell me exactly how I did not quote Stam fairly.
In my initial post on this thread I did in fact address what he said here:
"yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value."
Since Stam said that "works" were required for salvation then those works were "essential" for salvation. So it makes no sense to say that the works were essential but at the same time that they never had any saving value.
quote:
Judging by the OP, it looks like this whole debate is based on Jerry misquoting Stam's book to make it look as if Stam is contradicting himself.
Go back to my initial post and please tell me how I misquoted Stam and tell me what I said that is error when I proved that Stam did indeed contradict himself.
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
Carol,
You said:
"Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
I left that out but if you will go to the initial post on this thread his idea there is throughly refuted?
Did you even read that initial post?
Do you think that "works" in earlier dispensations are "essential" for salvation?
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
YOU DID NOT POST ,"I said that the Lord Jesus spoke those words to the Jews "
YOU POSTED, That is right and if works were required for salvation for those who lived during the dispensation of the law then common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus would not tell those people that faith was all that was required. However, that is exactly what He told them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"
No mention of Jews. You only mentioned Abraham and David ?
The subject under discussion was how the Jews who lived under the law were saved. That is why I quoted what Stam wrote here and how David entered the discussion:
"David lived under the law. How was he justified? "David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Rom. 4:6)" (Stam, [I]Things That Differ, p.16).
Since the subject is in regard to how the Jews who lived under the law were saved then perhaps you will finally address the following words of the Lord Jesus which were spoken to the Jews who lived under the law?:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
If "works" of one kind or another were required for salvation for those who lived under the law then why did the Lord Jesus make it plain that only faith was required?
quote:
Jerry is playing the old shell game with his razzle dazzle of moving the shells/text around then tricks one into trying to pick the shell with the pee under it. Only with this type of shell game, THE SOULS of the BASEBALL FANS are at stake.
It is you who is playing games as evidenced by just how far you are willing to go in order to avoid actually addressing the words of the Lord Jesus at John 5:24.
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Jerry,
I've already done that.
Jerry is playing the old shell game with his razzle dazzle of moving the shells/text around then tricks one into trying to pick the shell with the pee under it. Only with this type of shell game, THE SOULS of the BASEBALL FANS are at stake.
Read the info below from a web site that Jerry already has played, before you feed into any more of this sillyness that takes away from the simplicity that is in Christ.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007823
Go to the actual site where the debate was done.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13451
Debate is good, but known deception and the twisting/corrupting of text to fix the shell game for SOULs is NOT EDIFYING NOR DOES IT MINISTER GRACE. All it ministers and maintains is confusion.
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication/(postings) proceed out of your mouth(keyboard), but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers(baseball fans).
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
Carol,
You said:
"Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
I left that out but if you will go to the initial post on this thread his idea there is throughly refuted?
Did you even read that initial post?
Do you think that "works" in earlier dispensations are "essential" for salvation?
Yes I did read the OP, thus my comments. If you had read all of my posts on this thread then you would not be asking me that question.
I think the problem is a misunderstanding of the word "essentially" in Stam's quote. The word means basically or fundamentally. And of course it's true, mankind from it's creation has been basically saved by the grace of God, not by anything we can do.
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
Yes I did read the OP, thus my comments. If you had read all of my posts on this thread then you would not be asking me that question.
Yes, but here is what you said about my opening post:
quote:
Judging by the OP, it looks like this whole debate is based on Jerry misquoting Stam's book to make it look as if Stam is contradicting himself.
First of all, if you are going to make an accusation like that against me then back it up. Tell me exactly where I misquoted Stam's book.
Next, after you do that let us look at what Stam did write to see if he contradicted himself or not:
At one place he wrote:
David lived under the law. How was he justified? 'David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works' (Rom. 4:6)"
Here we can see that Stam quotes a verse which shows that a person (David) who lived under the law was justified "without works."
But he contradicts himself here when he says that works were "required" for salvation for those under other dispensations which would include the dispensation of the law:
Note carefully that while God refuses works for salvation today, He required them under other dispensations."
If "works" were required or essential for salvation for those who lived under the law then how could it be said that David's salvation was "without works"?
If you do not think that Stam contradicted himself then please answer my question.
Thanks!
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
[QUOTE]
If "works" were required or essential for salvation for those who lived under the law then how could it be said that David's salvation was "without works"?
If you do not think that Stam contradicted himself then please answer my question.
Thanks!
Answer your own sillyness.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
First of all, if you are going to make an accusation like that against me then back it up. Tell me exactly where I misquoted Stam's book.
 MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! "Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
I posted the whole section of Stam's book that you quoted from. If taken in context, there are no contradictions. If you insist on taking things out of context, then you can make almost anything contradict itself.
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
Can you expound what Mr Stam means? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
Can you expound what Mr Stam means?
Big C already did ,
Let's look at the whole section of Stam's book that this debate is based on.
THE PRINCIPLES OF GOD
A principle, as we have used the word above, is a settled rule of morality or conduct. We respect men with principles; men who stand for the right, whatever the cost. God, of course, has the very highest principles and never deviates from them. He always did and always will hate sin. Sin always was and always will be contrary to His holy nature. In no age has this been any less so than in any other age. In like manner, God always did and always will delight in righteousness, mercy and love. God never has and never will deviate in the slightest degree from these principles.
The principle of law or justice, for example, has continued unchanged through the ages. No matter what the dispensation, when wrong is done God's sense of justice is offended. This may be simply demonstrated by three Scriptural examples:
Cain lived before the dispensation of the law by Moses. Cain murdered his brother Abel. Was this right or wrong? Did he get into trouble over it? He did, although the written law had not yet been given.
David lived under the law of Moses. He also committed murder. Was this right or wrong? Wrong, of course, and he also got into trouble over it.
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. Suppose we should commit murder, would that be right or wrong? Would we get into trouble over it - with God? Would the fact that Christ bore our sins on Calvary, make murder any more right? Would God look upon it as less sinful because it took place under the dispensation of grace?
You say, in the case of the true believer today, the full legal penalty for the sin would still have been borne by Christ and, though he knew it not, David too was forgiven on this ground. But does not the very fact that David's sins and ours were paid for, rather than overlooked, prove that the principles of law and justice remain fixed?
The principle of grace is equally unchangeable. This may be simply demonstrated by one passage of Scripture: Rom. 4:1-6:
Abraham lived before the dispensation of the law. How was he justified? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom.4:3).
David lived under the law. How was he justified? "David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Rom. 4:6).
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. How are we justified? "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"(Rom. 4:5).
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value.
--------------------
That is all.....
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
Answer your own sillyness.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
You continue to play games by avoiding addressing the words of the Lord Jesus at John 5:24. To show that I am not playing games I will address the verse which you quoted:
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).
Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:
"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).
Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved. Those who believe will submit to the rite of water baptism and those who do not believe will not submit to that rite:
"And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him" (Lk.7:29-30).
John D. Grassmick writes, "Though the New Testament writers generally assume that under normal circumstances each believer will be baptized, 16:16 does not mean that baptism is a necessary requirement for personal salvation. The second half of the verse indicates by contrast that one who does not believe the gospel will be condemned by God (implied) in the day of final judgment (cf. 9:43-48). The basis for condemnation is unbelief, not the lack of any ritual observance...Thus the only requirement for personally appropriating God's salvation is faith in Him" (Walvoord & Zuck, The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], p.196).
Now that I have answered the verse which you quoted then please answer what the Lord Jesus said here which demonstrates that "works" were not required for salvation for those who lived under the law:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
If "works" of one kind or another were required for salvation for those who lived under the law then why did the Lord Jesus make it plain that only faith was required?
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Jerry Shugart
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quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! "Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
you said nothing that demonstrates that the part which I did not quote changed the meaning of what Stam wrote.
You have said nothing that supports your accusation. Where I grew up if someone makes accusations against someone else then that person must give the evidence to support that accusation.
You haver provided nothing but an unsupported accusation.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
If "works" of one kind or another were required for salvation for those who lived under the law then why did the Lord Jesus make it plain that only faith was required?
John 5:18 - 24 (NASB)
18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22“For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
What He made plain, at least to some of us, is that works depend on faith. He certainly never taught faith without works.
James 2:26 (NASB)
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! "Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
you said nothing that demonstrates that the part which I did not quote changed the meaning of what Stam wrote.
You have said nothing that supports your accusation. Where I grew up if someone makes accusations against someone else then that person must give the evidence to support that accusation.
You haver provided nothing but an unsupported accusation.
You're in denial. You should have that looked at.
quote:
You haver provided nothing but an unsupported accusation.
Prove it. LOL
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Jerry Shugart
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
What He made plain, at least to some of us, is that works depend on faith. He certainly never taught faith without works.
No one said anything that even hints that works do not depend on faith. The subject is whether or not "works" were required for salvation in other dispensations.
quote:
You're in denial. You should have that looked at.
Is that all you can say in response to my request for you to support your accusations against me?
How did the part which I did not quote change the meaning of what Stam wrote?
Your refusal to answer demonstrates that all you did was to make a false accusation against me even though you had no evidence to support that false accusation.
It is easy to make accusations against those with whom you do not agree but it is an entirely different thing to back up that accusation with facts.
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Carol Swenson
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JERRY MISQUOTED STAM BY LEAVING OFF HALF OF STAM'S PARAGRAPH AND THEREBY CHANGED THE MEANING OF WHAT STAM SAID!
Do I need to "demonstrate" that 2 + 2 = 4?
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
THE WORD OF TRUTH
by Cornelius R. Stam
Once the works of the Law were required for salvation:
Can you expound what Mr Stam means?
Big C already did ,
Let's look at the whole section of Stam's book that this debate is based on.
THE PRINCIPLES OF GOD
A principle, as we have used the word above, is a settled rule of morality or conduct. We respect men with principles; men who stand for the right, whatever the cost. God, of course, has the very highest principles and never deviates from them. He always did and always will hate sin. Sin always was and always will be contrary to His holy nature. In no age has this been any less so than in any other age. In like manner, God always did and always will delight in righteousness, mercy and love. God never has and never will deviate in the slightest degree from these principles.
The principle of law or justice, for example, has continued unchanged through the ages. No matter what the dispensation, when wrong is done God's sense of justice is offended. This may be simply demonstrated by three Scriptural examples:
Cain lived before the dispensation of the law by Moses. Cain murdered his brother Abel. Was this right or wrong? Did he get into trouble over it? He did, although the written law had not yet been given.
David lived under the law of Moses. He also committed murder. Was this right or wrong? Wrong, of course, and he also got into trouble over it.
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. Suppose we should commit murder, would that be right or wrong? Would we get into trouble over it - with God? Would the fact that Christ bore our sins on Calvary, make murder any more right? Would God look upon it as less sinful because it took place under the dispensation of grace?
You say, in the case of the true believer today, the full legal penalty for the sin would still have been borne by Christ and, though he knew it not, David too was forgiven on this ground. But does not the very fact that David's sins and ours were paid for, rather than overlooked, prove that the principles of law and justice remain fixed?
The principle of grace is equally unchangeable. This may be simply demonstrated by one passage of Scripture: Rom. 4:1-6:
Abraham lived before the dispensation of the law. How was he justified? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom.4:3).
David lived under the law. How was he justified? "David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Rom. 4:6).
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. How are we justified? "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"(Rom. 4:5).
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value.
Thank you,
We seem to be going round this in circles for clarification.
However, why does he say, "Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation," when it is clear that works were not required for salvation?
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Carol Swenson
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posted
The only way people can be saved from God’s wrath is through God’s grace (Eph. 2:8-9); but grace isn’t God’s reward for a good life: it’s God’s response to saving faith. “By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household” (Heb. 11:7, NKJV). True faith involves the whole of the inner person: the mind understands God’s warning, the heart fears for what is coming, and the will acts in obedience to God’s Word.
To understand God’s truth but not act upon it is not biblical faith; it’s only intellectual assent to religious truth. To be emotionally aroused without comprehending God’s message isn’t faith, because true faith is based on an understanding of the truth (Matt. 13:18-23). To have the mind enlightened and the heart stirred but not act in obedience to the message is not faith, for “faith without works is dead” (James 2:14-26). The mind, heart, and will are all involved in true biblical faith.
Everybody who has ever been saved from sin has been saved “by grace, through faith,” and this includes the Old Testament worthies listed in Hebrews 11. Nobody was ever saved by bringing a sacrifice (Heb. 10:1-4; Ps. 51:16-17), by keeping the Law (Gal. 2:16), or by doing good works (Rom. 4:5). Salvation is a gracious gift that can be rejected or received by faith. Like Noah, we must all “find grace in the eyes of the Lord” (Gen. 6:8).
(Wiersbe)
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! MISQUOTE! "Jerry left out the bolded part that completely changes the meaning of the paragraph."
you said nothing that demonstrates that the part which I did not quote changed the meaning of what Stam wrote.
You have said nothing that supports your accusation. Where I grew up if someone makes accusations against someone else then that person must give the evidence to support that accusation.
You haver provided nothing but an unsupported accusation.
You're in denial. You should have that looked at.
quote:
You haver provided nothing but an unsupported accusation.
Prove it. LOL
Ditto! Big C this one is not here to fellowship or learn but try to lord over with his shell game.
He has already moved the pee from the part quote from Stam to the middle shell of the verily verily?
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That is all.....
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