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Author
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Topic: Repentance and Grace
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
yahsway and I had a friendly talk on Facebook sometime back and made peace. I certainly have nothing against Jewish believers.
But like Betty, I think some people on this board teach Judaism as opposed to New Testament teaching. Most of those trying to teach it are not even Jewish. It doesn't matter if they are or not - it matters what they are teaching.
Legalism and Judaism are a gospel contrary to what we received.
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
11For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
There is only one gospel, the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation has always been by grace, but the revelation of God's plan for salvation has progressed over time. There have been a number of different covenants with different requirements. And there is more to come in the Millennial Kingdom.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
becauseHElives
quote:
the question still boils down to...are there two different Gospel?
No. There is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
But there have been different covenants and dispensations
Although every man at any time is saved by the grace of God through faith, the content of faith differs from one dispensation to the next.
That is, the message that is offered and believed for righteousness and salvation varies according to God’s progressive revelation.
This can be understood by a careful study of Scripture making sure to rightly divide according to what had been revealed (2 Tim 2:15).
Noah and righteousness
In Genesis, Noah was counted righteous because of his obedience to God and was saved through the building of the ark in a world without rain. His faith and obedience was not based upon the knowledge of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but in the living God and his promise of a flood.
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.” – Hebrews 11:7
While Peter explains that Noah’s salvation was a figure of the salvation found in the resurrection of Christ, there is no mention of Noah’s understanding of this truth. Peter reveals that no prophet understood such a salvation through Christ until after his death:
“Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.” – 1 Peter 1:11-12
Abraham and righteousness
It cannot be ignored that Abraham was counted righteous because of his faith in God’s word for a mighty nation, not the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Genesis 15:6). Although we now know that Abraham could be justified based upon the then-future propitiatory work of Christ, the message that counted him faithful was the promise of a mighty nation.
As Paul explains, Abraham was ‘strong in faith’ (Romans 4:20).
“And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.“ – Romans 4:21
The specific promise that God made to Abraham was not that a messiah would die for his sins, but that his wife would produce a son although she was barren and beyond her age.
“Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.” – Romans 4:18
Moses and righteousness
While Moses was able to have personal communion and conversation with God, he wrote about a righteousness gained from the obedience of faith in the law.
“And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.” – Deuteronomy 6:25
Paul expounds upon the understanding of Moses when he quotes Leviticus 18:5:
“For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.” – Romans 10:5
This righteousness and the faith that Moses and his followers had of God’s law was not faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 10:2-9).
John the Baptist and righteousness
After a four century silence in God’s plan with Israel, John the Baptist appears on the scene preaching the ‘baptism of repentance for the remission of sins’ (Mark 1:4).
The message he taught was the soon coming of the promised kingdom to Israel and the Messiah. Those who believed his message accepted his baptism, and those who were unfaithful to God’s promises rejected his testimony of faith.
“But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?” – Matt 3:7
The result of accepting John’s baptism was a remission of sins and righteousness by the obedience of faith. Jesus demonstrated this by taking part in the baptism, although John declared that he didn’t need it:
“But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.“ – Matt 3:14-15
Jesus and righteousness
During his earthly ministry Jesus also taught the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ as John did:
“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel”
However, Jesus also taught the righteousness of the new covenant law.
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” – Matthew 5:17
“For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” –Matthew 5:20
Although this standard of righteousness seemed to be stringent, there were abundant rewards for those who ‘endured to the end’ (Matt 10:22).
“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” – Matthew 6:33
It should be noted that even though Jesus taught the law, coming kingdom, and even his identity as the son of God, belief in his atoning death and resurrection was not required for righteousness or salvation during his earthly ministry.
In fact, when he did try to explain that he had to die to his disciples, they were ignorant of the matter:
“And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.“ – Luke 18:34
The Disciples and the New Covenant righteousness
After the institution of the New Covenant and empowerment by the Holy Ghost the disciples Peter and John wrote about a faith in Jesus as the Messiah and his resurrection.
Peter explains that remaining faithful to God and his Son through the immediate trials of tribulation would secure salvation and righteousness for believers in the end:
“That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: … Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.” – 1 Peter 1:7,9
The content of the faith that they had to believe was preached by Peter at his Pentecostal debut:
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” – Acts 2:36
John also writes that their faith rested in the message that Jesus was indeed the son of God, the promised Messiah.
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.“ – Jon 20:31
“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.” – 1 John 5:1
“He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.“ – 1 John 5:12
“If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.” – 1 John 2:29
This message of faith in the name of Jesus as Christ and Messiah was essential to entering the kingdom and achieving the righteousness as promised by God.
Conclusion
This list does not include the gospel of grace and imputed righteousness through Jesus Christ revealed to Paul.
http://graceambassadors.com/salvation/the-many-gospels-of-the-bible
Caretaker
quote:
Carol and Bill in your support for the Berean Bible Society and Pauline Dispensationalism you truly DO DIVIDE the Body of Christ and reject the Brethren from the Body of Christ who came to Christ PRIOR to the conversion of Paul.
Actually, I don't support the Berean Bible Society because I don't agree with their mid-Acts position (sorry WildB). The New Covenant church began at Pentecost with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
However, that does not mean that the 12 and all the Old Testament saints and everyone had the same message. They didn't! To try to force the idea that they all had to have the same message, and the same job, or else we are dividing Christ is just...proud and stubborn.
Those who reject Christians, those who reject Grace Ministers, are the ones who are dividing the Body of Christ.
Do I study the entire Bible? YES I DO! Do I believe that the Sermon On The Mount was meant for me? YES I DO! Not in the way of legalism, but because these are the things that please my Lord, and I love Him and want to please Him. I study everything He said. Was I baptized? YES I WAS! I was baptized by immersion, but not for the remission of sins. Do I believe in progressive revelation? YES.
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" (1 Corinthians 2:9)
There is much more to come!
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
the question still boils down to...are there two different Gospel?
Yes and dispensation wise no.
Yes that it was the Blood of our Christ always.
I would never call it a different Gospel, only that the knocking down of Paul and the setting aside of Israel, made all one in the body of Christ.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WildB
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I would be more concerned with those that teach these things on this board but I will take a prayerful look at your charge.
1That OSAS, is a license to SIN~~~!"
2That the Sabbath is to be kept on Saturday.
3That Yahushua must be used in the place of the name JESUS.
4That the Harpazo is a lie.
5That there is no BEMA.
6That there is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
7That THE MYSTERY is a lie.
8That retention of the Law will be the guarantee of everlasting life.
For the record. I support Stam who is a part of the Berean Bible Society, there is a difference.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Sorry Bill but this posted teaching comes directly from the Berean Bible Society website.
This is the slippery slope of the Pauline Dispensationalist. Very little degree of separation between the mid-acts and the Ultra.
It divides the Body of Christ, declares that NONE prior to Paul were part of the Body of Christ and declares the Church founded upon Peter's declaration to Christ to be a different Church then the Body of Christ.
Sorry yourself, Carol and I are talking about the Dispensation of the Gospel of Grace committed unto Paul by out Lord Jesus Christ from Heaven...
Not PAULINE DISPENSATIONAL-ISUM.
If you cannot see the change/difference from what was committed to the 12 from the Lord while he was on earth to the Nation Israel then and to Paul later, it is you who divides by not understanding what a commission is.
Sign,
Viper Bill...
Ps luv ya and we did get the Niebuhr's log splitter back.
I am glad you got the log-splitter back.
Declaring a different Gospel given by Paul from that which was given by the 12 IS Pauline Dispensationalism, if what you give walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. Don't be pulling the tarp over the ball-field, when it ain't raining.
As long as you Bill post from and support Stam and the Berean Bible Society, then you are responsible for their published teaching.
Their published teaching declares that no Believer prior to Paul was a part of the Body of Christ. That the 12 were NOT a part of the Body of Christ. That the Church based upon the Apostolic Confession of faith was different than the Church of the Body of Christ.
This is false teaching.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Sorry Bill but this posted teaching comes directly from the Berean Bible Society website.
This is the slippery slope of the Pauline Dispensationalist. Very little degree of separation between the mid-acts and the Ultra.
It divides the Body of Christ, declares that NONE prior to Paul were part of the Body of Christ and declares the Church founded upon Peter's declaration to Christ to be a different Church then the Body of Christ.
Sorry yourself, Carol and I are talking about the Dispensation of the Gospel of Grace committed unto Paul by out Lord Jesus Christ from Heaven...
Not PAULINE DISPENSATIONAL-ISUM.
If you cannot see the change/difference from what was committed to the 12 from the Lord while he was on earth to the Nation Israel then and to Paul later, it is you who divides by not understanding what a commission is.
Sign,
Viper Bill...
Ps luv ya and we did get the Niebuhr's log splitter back.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
Sorry Bill but this posted teaching comes directly from the Berean Bible Society website.
This is the slippery slope of the Pauline Dispensationalist. Very little degree of separation between the mid-acts and the Ultra.
It divides the Body of Christ, declares that NONE prior to Paul were part of the Body of Christ and declares the Church founded upon Peter's declaration to Christ to be a different Church then the Body of Christ.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/Peter_Part_2.html
quote:
While we respect the views of others on the matter, we do not believe that the twelve apostles, nor the kingdom saints became members of the Body of Christ. In addition to being inconsistent with the text, this view confuses the two programs of God. Furthermore, there would have been no need for Paul’s apostleship if this were the case. But there is one question that some are sure to raise: "If those living during the dispensation of Promise were incorporated into the dispensation of the Law, why is it beyond reason that those ‘in Christ’ before Paul became members of the Body of Christ at the beginning of this present dispensation?"
First and foremost, the dispensation of Promise and the dispensation of the Law were both under the umbrella of the Prophetic Program. Those living under the Promise became the recipients of the law without an interruption in their program. The addition of the law was merely a further development in God’s plans and purposes for the earth. It was added to the Promise because of transgressions (Gal. 3:18,19).
Second, the Mystery has temporally interrupted the Prophetic Program. It is a new revelation that was committed to the Apostle Paul concerning God’s plans and purposes for the heavenlies. Hence, the answer to the question, why Paul? The Mystery introduces us for the first time to a new entity called the Church, the Body of Christ. Since this new entity is unrelated to prophecy, to teach that the kingdom saints became members of the Body of Christ only serves to muddy the waters.
Carol and Bill in your support for the Berean Bible Society and Pauline Dispensationalism you truly DO DIVIDE the Body of Christ and reject the Brethren from the Body of Christ who came to Christ PRIOR to the conversion of Paul.
This is wrongly dividing the Body of Christ!!!!!!
Sorry my friend but Carol has pointed out several things that the author of this info you post, by Paul M. Sadler has been in error with. To which I agreed.
Your posting of his opinions does not prove your point.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
The Berean Bible Society teaches two Churches:
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/Peter_Part_1.html
quote:
"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:17,18).
The eighth day after Peter was born his earthly father (Jona) named him Simon, which means hearing. He was as unstable as water, but divine grace was about to make a profound change in his life. Thus, he receives a "given name" from our Lord who was well pleased with his declaration. "Thou art Peter" (Gr. Petros) a little rock. He was to become a rock, sure and steadfast, that could be relied upon to hold fast to the truth through the coming storms.
We also have a fascinating Greek play upon words in this portion. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [Gr. Petros], and upon this rock [Gr. Petra} I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Our Lord did not say that He was going to build His Church upon Peter (Petros) as Catholicism teaches. They believe Peter was the first Pope, a claim that is unsubstantiated by Church history and more importantly the Scriptures.
Rather, it would be built upon the special revelation that Peter received from the Father, namely, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" "Upon this rock [Gr. Petra, a massive rock] I will build my church." In other words, the church would be built upon Christ. He was to be its foundation upon which the living stones will rest (I Peter 2:1-8). If we consistently rightly divide the Word of truth, the called out ones in this passage would be the kingdom church. Therefore, it is the kingdom saints who have received their Messiah that will be added to this foundation—the first of which was the little flock that included the twelve apostles (Luke 12:32).
So then, believing Israel is the New Testament church. Contrary to tradition, we are not the New Testament church; we are the Church, the Body of Christ. Both the Old and New Covenants were made with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah (Jer. 31:31,32). However, the Apostle Paul is clear that we are partakers of Israel’s spiritual things; consequently, we are the beneficiaries of the spiritual blessings of the New Testament by grace, and grace alone. Those who claim otherwise must crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame, since the blood of Christ was shed once for all in accordance with the New Testament (Rom 15:27 cf. Heb. 9:11-15).
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Several years ago I began to study and preach through the Gospel of Matthew. As I worked through the life and ministry of our Lord, a clear understanding of the message He proclaimed and the evangelistic method He used crystallized in my thinking. I came to see Jesus' Gospel as the foundation upon which all N. T. doctrine stands. Many difficult passages in the Epistles became clearer when I understood them in that light.
This book grew out of seven years of study in the Gospels. As I have immersed myself in the Gospel Jesus taught, I have become acutely aware that most of modern evangelism--both witnessing and preaching--falls short of presenting the biblical evangel in a balanced and biblical way. On a disturbing number of fronts, the message being proclaimed today is not the Gospel according to Jesus. (Introduction, p. 15)
DR. JOHN F. MacARTHUR -- The Gospel According to Jesus
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/Peter_Part_2.html
quote:
While we respect the views of others on the matter, we do not believe that the twelve apostles, nor the kingdom saints became members of the Body of Christ. In addition to being inconsistent with the text, this view confuses the two programs of God. Furthermore, there would have been no need for Paul’s apostleship if this were the case. But there is one question that some are sure to raise: "If those living during the dispensation of Promise were incorporated into the dispensation of the Law, why is it beyond reason that those ‘in Christ’ before Paul became members of the Body of Christ at the beginning of this present dispensation?"
First and foremost, the dispensation of Promise and the dispensation of the Law were both under the umbrella of the Prophetic Program. Those living under the Promise became the recipients of the law without an interruption in their program. The addition of the law was merely a further development in God’s plans and purposes for the earth. It was added to the Promise because of transgressions (Gal. 3:18,19).
Second, the Mystery has temporally interrupted the Prophetic Program. It is a new revelation that was committed to the Apostle Paul concerning God’s plans and purposes for the heavenlies. Hence, the answer to the question, why Paul? The Mystery introduces us for the first time to a new entity called the Church, the Body of Christ. Since this new entity is unrelated to prophecy, to teach that the kingdom saints became members of the Body of Christ only serves to muddy the waters.
Carol and Bill in your support for the Berean Bible Society and Pauline Dispensationalism you truly DO DIVIDE the Body of Christ and reject the Brethren from the Body of Christ who came to Christ PRIOR to the conversion of Paul.
This is wrongly dividing the Body of Christ!!!!!!
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Christ is Himself the Gospel; He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible is all about Christ. In that sense there is one Gospel.
Yet His revelation to us has been progressive. He has dealt with man through different dispensations and different covenants.
Pastors and teachers, and most of us here at this BBS, have talked about the atoning work of Christ and salvation issues. At other times we have talked about the future Rapture, Tribulation, and the Millennial Kingdom Christ will establish when He returns. We have NEVER said the two topics are the same thing.
But if we say, "Kingdom gospel" and "Grace gospel", look at the reaction!
The Berean Bible Society declares that the 12 Apostles WERE NOT a part of the Body of Christ:
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1068064419.html
quote:
The two positions regarding this question are known as the "twelve-in" and the "twelve-out" positions. In answering the question of whether the twelve apostles were added to the body of Christ we will present Scriptural evidence that they were not, and we will answer objections to the "twelve-out" position.
Perhaps the most striking distinction between God's plan and purpose for Israel and His plan and purpose for the church, the body of Christ, is the positions they occupy (and will occupy for all eternity). It has often been said that Israel's was an "earthly" hope. By this, we do not mean that their hope and destiny is unspiritual in any way. When Christ establishes His kingdom, it will be a very spiritual kingdom, but it will take place upon the earth. Zechariah prophesies that some day "the LORD shall go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives..." (Zechariah 14:3,4a). Then he goes on to say, "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one" (Zechariah 14:9). And who is the "LORD" who will do this? It is none other than Jesus Christ Himself! He speaks of this in Matthew 25:31, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." And to the twelve apostles He promises, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matthew 19:28). All of this is in accordance with God's great kingdom promises to Israel that "the meek shall inherit the earth" (Psalm 37:11a; cf. Matthew 5:5) and "the righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever" (Psalm 37:29).
But to "the church which is his body" (see Ephesians 1:22,23), Paul writes, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 2:6). And to the Philippian believers, "For our conversation (lit. `citizenship') is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ" (Philippians 3:20). And, of course, some day "the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17). Paul refers to all of this as our "blessed hope" (see Titus 2:13).
With all of this in mind, our question ought to be, how could the twelve apostles possibly be members of the body of Christ when they were promised to live on the earth forever, yet the "body" is promised to live in heaven?
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Christ is Himself the Gospel; He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible is all about Christ. There is one Gospel.
Yet His revelation to us has been progressive. He has dealt with man through different dispensations and different covenants.
Pastors and teachers, and most of us here at this BBS, have talked about the atoning work of Christ and salvation issues. At other times we have talked about the future Rapture, Tribulation, and the Millennial Kingdom Christ will establish when He returns. We have NEVER said the two topics are the same thing.
But if we say, "Kingdom gospel" and "Grace gospel", look at the reaction!
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
No one has divided the Body of Christ, made of both Jews and Gentiles. We divide the Body from Israel. So do you Caretaker!
WildB, do YOU divide the Body of Christ? I didn't think so. Me neither.
Nope not at all. I do see the difference in dispensation and how it divides responsibility.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
I see NO AND in the Gospel of Grace or SIGNS to follow committed unto Paul by the Lord.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
If I missed it please do post.
Sign, Viper Bill
I can take you to the scriptures which show Paul shaking off the serpent into the fire, laying hands upon the sick, even praying over and sending cloths to the sick, and where he says that he speaks in tongues more than any of the Corinthians.
But it will make no difference to you Bill, until you can lay aside the false teaching which wrongly divides the Body of Christ.
And I can take you to text where he left others sick and said he was not sent to baptize.And told another to take a little wine for his stomach.
Also where he said when that which is perfect has come these other things will cease.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Gospel
(Anglo-Saxon, godspel, “good story”). Good news, and employed as the equivalent of the Gk. euaggelion. This word in the earlier Gk. language signified “a present given to one who brought good tidings,” or “a sacrifice offered in thanksgiving for such good tidings having come.” In later Gk. it was employed for the good tidings themselves. It is used to signify:
1. The good news of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as provided by our Lord and preached by His disciples (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The gospel then is full and free deliverance from sin on the basis of simple faith in Jesus Christ, the vicarious sin-Bearer (Ephesians 2:8-10). In this aspect the gospel has two phases: one, to the unsaved—Christ died for me (John 3:16; Acts 16:30-31); second, to the saved—I died in Christ (Romans 6:2-10), with a key to the experiential realization of this fact in the life furnished by Romans 6:11.
2. Forms of the gospel to be differentiated. Many Bible teachers make a distinction in the following:
(1) The Gospel of the Kingdom. The good news that God’s purpose is to establish an earthly mediatorial kingdom in fulfillment of the Davidic covenant (2 Samuel 7:16). Two proclamations of the gospel of the kingdom are mentioned, one already past, beginning with the ministry of John the Baptist, carried on by our Lord and His disciples, and ending with the Jewish rejection of the Messiah. The other preaching is yet future (Matthew 24:14), during the Great Tribulation, and heralding the second advent of the King.
Closely connected, although perhaps not identical in its emphasis with the gospel of the kingdom, is the everlasting gospel (Revelation 14:6) preached to those on earth during the latter part of the Tribulation.
(2) The Gospel of God’s Grace (see no. 1 above). Paul calls this gospel of the grace of God “my gospel” (Romans 2:16) because the full doctrinal content based upon the gospel of the grace of God embraces the revelation of the result in the outcalling of the church, her relationship, position, privileges, and responsibility. This distinctive Pauline truth, honeycombing Ephesians and Colossians, is interwoven in all of the Pauline writings.
3. “A different gospel” (Galatians 1:6; 2 Corinthians 11:4) “which you have not accepted.” This consists of any denial or perversion of the gospel of the grace of God. Its essential stamp is that it denies the full efficacy of God’s grace alone to save, keep, and perfect, and introduces some sort of human merit. In Galatia it was legalism. Its teachers are under God’s terrible anathema. The relation of the gospel to the law of Moses has been a source of much confusion. Under grace the Ten Commandments are all presented, except that involving the observance of the seventh day. However, they are to be operative not to find favor with God but because the redeemed one has already found favor and eternal life and possesses the indwelling Spirit to work them out in daily conduct.
4. The four stories of our Lord’s life published by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The writers are called evangelists. These accounts are “gospels” because they recite the events in the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of the Lord and predicted bestowment of the Spirit, making possible “the gospel.”
(THE NEW UNGER’S BIBLE DICTIONARY)
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Carol Swenson
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Are you saying, then, that we must be baptized first and then have hands laid on us before we receive the Holy Spirit?
The transition from Judaism to Jewish Christianity to Grace took time; it took years and years. Maybe that's part of the reason why God waited 40 years before He destroyed the Temple.
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Caretaker
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Paul preaches the Gospel and Baptizes, and teaches of the Kingdom:
Acts 19:
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Carol Swenson
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No one has divided the Body of Christ, made of both Jews and Gentiles. We divide the Body from Israel. So do you Caretaker!
WildB, do YOU divide the Body of Christ? I didn't think so. Me neither.
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Caretaker
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Eph. 2:
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16: And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18: For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19: Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20: And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21: In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
It is by faith alone in Christ alone that the lost are redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Caretaker
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Ephesians 2:
19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Rev. 21:
14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
This seems borne out by the fact that the words spoken unto Peter in Matt. 16:18, were spoken to all of the disciples in Matt. 18:
Matt. 18:
18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
The rock or foundation of the church is the confession (ultimately the doctrine) of the apostles, which became normative for the true church.
The word church (Greek ekklesia), means literally “ a chosen or called out assembly”. Thus the use of the word as a technical term for an assembly or group of believers in Christ was quite natural. It was not viewed as an external organization, denomination, or hierarchical system. The New Testament Church is a local autonomous congregation or an assembly which is a church in and of itself. John writes to 7 churches, in His Revelation, not to one.
Scofield commentary:
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Peter
There is the Greek a play upon the words, "thou art Peter petros-- literally 'a little rock', and upon this rock Petra I will build my church." He does not promise to build His church upon Peter, but upon Himself, as Peter is careful to tell us
(1 Peter 2:4-9)
2:4 Coming to Him, a living stone--rejected by men but chosen and valuable to God--
2:5 you yourselves, as living stones, are being built into a spiritual house for a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
2:6 For it stands in Scripture: Look! I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and valuable cornerstone, and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame!
2:7 So the honor is for you who believe; but for the unbelieving, The stone that the builders rejected-- this One has become the cornerstone, and
2:8 A stone that causes men to stumble, and a rock that trips them up. They stumble by disobeying the message; they were destined for this.
2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
church:
2 (Greek - ajpovllumi (ek=="out of," kaleo =="to call"), an assembly of called out ones). The word is used of any assembly; the word itself implies no more, as, e.g., the town-meeting at Ephesus Acts 19:39 and Israel, called out of Egypt and assembled in the wilderness Acts 7:38. Israel was a true "church," but not in any sense the N.T. church--the only point of similarity being that both were "called out" and by the same God. All else is contrast.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
I see NO AND in the Gospel of Grace or SIGNS to follow committed unto Paul by the Lord.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
If I missed it please do post.
Sign, Viper Bill
I can take you to the scriptures which show Paul shaking off the serpent into the fire, laying hands upon the sick, even praying over and sending cloths to the sick, and where he says that he speaks in tongues more than any of the Corinthians.
But it will make no difference to you Bill, until you can lay aside the false teaching which wrongly divides the Body of Christ.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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WildB
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I see NO AND in the Gospel of Grace or SIGNS to follow committed unto Paul by the Lord.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
If I missed it please do post.
Sign, Viper Bill
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That is all.....
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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
Galatians 1:11 - 12 (NASB)
For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
His plans for His church are different from His plans for Israel.
His message to His church is different from His message to Israel.
He appointed a different Apostle for His Gentiles than those he chose for Israel.
There is an obvious difference between being told to live by the Law of Moses, and being told we are saved by Grace apart from the Law!
We walk in the Spirit and live by the Law of CHRIST, not the Law of Moses.
but the Gospel to the Jew is the same Gospel to the Gentiles....One Gospel for the entire human race ....not two as the Berean Bible Society teaches....
Amen Dale!!!
Pauline Dispensationalism falsely divides the Body of Christ and separates it into two entirely new and different categories: the Apostolic Kingdom Church and the Church of Paul.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 "The body is one and has many members, but all the members, many though they are, are one body; and so it is with Christ. It was in one Spirit that all of us, whether Jew or Greek, slave or free, were baptized into one body." There is only one body, one Church, one Gospel. Those who hold to the two Churches/Gospels theory cannot overcome this fact.
1 Corinthians 15:1-11 Paul begins by stating, "Brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and in which you stand firm." He then relates how Christ died, was buried and rose in accordance with Scripture, "was seen by Cephas, then by the Twelve" and other witnesses, and how Paul was the least of the apostles because he persecuted the Church. Paul then concludes: "In any case, whether it be I or they, this is what we preach and this is what you believed." What WE preach! Paul clearly indicates that he and the other apostles preach the same Gospel.
Acts 10 - 11: Peter's Vision & Conversion of Gentiles Peter is the first to see that the Gospel is for Gentiles as well as Jews. In sum, "The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were surprised that the gift of the Holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also.... Peter put the question...'What can stop these people who have received the Holy Spirit, even as we have, from being baptized with water?' So he gave orders that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." Acts 10:44-48
Note that Peter only had the Gentile converts baptized - he didn't have them circumcised.
Note also that Gentiles were converting under Peter's preaching while Paul apparently was only preaching to Jews: first in the synagogues in Damascus (Acts 9:19-22) then to Greek-speaking Jews in Jerusalem (Acts 9:29)!
Acts 15: The Jerusalem Council "Some men came down to Antioch from Judea and began to teach the brothers, 'Unless you are circumcised according to Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.' " The Jerusalem Council is the slam-dunk which destroys forever the two Churches/Gospels theory. Paul took the controversy to Jerusalem and the one, true Gospel was vindicated by all: Peter, James and the whole Council and Jerusalem Church. It was NOT decided that there were two Gospels: one for Jews and one for Gentiles. Nor was it decided that Gentiles had to be circumcised in order to be saved.
Note also Peter's words, "Brothers, you know well enough that from the early days God selected ME from your number to be the one from whose lips the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe." Acts 15:7 Nobody at the Council disagreed with Peter's statement, not even Paul who was sitting right there.
Note Peter's further words:
" 'God, who reads the hearts of men, showed his approval by granting the Holy Spirit to them just as he did to us. He made no distinction between them and us, but purified their hearts by means of faith also. Why, then, do you put God to the test by trying to place on the shoulders of these converts a yoke which neither we nor our fathers were able to bear? Our belief is rather that we are saved by the favor of the Lord Jesus and so are they.' At that the whole assembly fell silent." Acts 15:8-12
"WE are saved by the favor of the Lord Jesus and so are they."
This is the Gospel as taught by Peter (and approved by the Jerusalem Council) and it is the Gospel as taught by Paul (who was present at the Jerusalem Council and did not dissent from the Council).
Note that Peter clearly states that BOTH Jews and Gentiles are saved by the grace of Christ - not by works of the Law.
There is only ONE Gospel!
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
quote:
Galatians 1:11 - 12 (NASB)
For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
His plans for His church are different from His plans for Israel.
His message to His church is different from His message to Israel.
He appointed a different Apostle for His Gentiles than those he chose for Israel.
There is an obvious difference between being told to live by the Law of Moses, and being told we are saved by Grace apart from the Law!
We walk in the Spirit and live by the Law of CHRIST, not the Law of Moses.
but the Gospel to the Jew is the same Gospel to the Gentiles....One Gospel for the entire human race ....not two as the Berean Bible Society teaches....
It has been pointed out to you for years, that the Gospel of the kingdom preached to the circumcised required Grace PLUS WORKS evidenced by signs.
You no longer have a excuse to be ignorant.
Please stop your attempts to divide the Body of Christ.
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
but the Gospel to the Jew is the same Gospel to the Gentiles....One Gospel for the entire human race ....not two as the Berean Bible Society teaches....
Yes, there is one gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28
But ISRAEL and the Church are separate!
You seem to believe the teachings of Covenant Theology.
What is Covenant Theology?
Covenant Theology isn’t so much a ‘theology’ in the sense of a systematic set of doctrine as it is a framework for interpreting Scripture. It is usually contrasted with another interpretative framework for Scripture called ‘Dispensational Theology,’ or ‘Dispensationalism.’ Dispensationalism is currently the most popular scriptural interpretative method in American evangelicalism, and has been so from the latter half of the 19th century on through to the 21st century. Covenant Theology, however, remains the majority report for Protestantism since the time of the Reformation. Where dispensationalism sees the Scriptures unfolding in a series of (typically) seven ‘dispensations’ (a ‘dispensation’ can be defined as the particular means God uses to deal with man and creation during a given period in redemptive history), Covenant Theology looks at the Scriptures through the grid of the covenant. Covenant Theology defines two overriding covenants: the covenant of works (CW) and the covenant of grace (CG). A third covenant is sometimes mentioned; namely, the covenant of redemption (CR), which logically precedes the other two covenants. We will discuss these covenants in turn. The important thing to keep in mind is that all of the various covenants described in Scripture (e.g., the covenants made with Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and the New Covenant) are outworkings of either the covenant of works or the covenant of grace.
Let’s begin to examine the various covenants detailed in Covenant Theology beginning with the covenant of redemption, which logically precedes the other two covenants. According to Covenant Theology, the CR is a covenant made among the three Persons of the trinity to elect, atone for, and save a select group of individuals unto salvation and eternal life. As one popular pastor-theologian has said, in the covenant of redemption, “the Father chooses a bride for His Son.” While the CR is not explicitly stated in Scripture, Scripture does explicitly state the eternal nature of the plan of salvation (Ephesians 1:3-14; 3:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:9; James 2:5; 1 Peter 1:2). Moreover, Jesus often referred to His task as carrying out the Father’s will (John 5:3, 43; 6:38-40; 17:4-12). That the salvation of the elect was God’s intention from the very beginning of creation cannot be doubted; the CR just formalizes this eternal plan in the language of covenant.
From a redemptive historical perspective, the covenant of works is the first covenant we see in Scripture. When God created man, he placed him in the Garden of Eden and gave him one simple command: “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die” (Genesis 2:16-17). We can see the covenantal language implied in this command. God sets up Adam in the Garden and promises eternal life to him and his posterity as long as he is obedient to God’s commands. Life is the reward for obedience and death is the punishment for disobedience. This is covenant language.
Some scholars see in the covenant of works a form of what is called a Suzerain-Vassal covenant. In these types of covenants, the suzerain (i.e., king or ruler) would offer the terms of the covenant to the vassal (i.e., the subject). The suzerain would provide blessing and protection in return for the vassal’s tribute. In the case of the covenant of works, God (the suzerain) promises eternal life and blessing to mankind (the vassal represented by Adam as the head of the human race), in return for man’s obedience to the stipulations of the covenant (i.e., don’t eat from the tree). We see a similar structure in the giving of the Old Covenant through Moses to Israel. Israel made a covenant with God at Sinai. God would give the Promised Land, a reconstituted ‘Eden’ (“a land flowing with milk and honey”), and His blessing and protection against all enemies in return for Israel’s obedience to the stipulations of the covenant. The punishment for covenant violation was expulsion from the land (which occurred in the conquest of the Northern Kingdom in 722 BC and the Southern Kingdom in 586 BC).
When Adam failed in keeping the covenant of works, God instituted the third covenant, called the covenant of grace. In the CG, God freely offers to sinners (those who fail to live up to the CW) eternal life and salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. We see the provision for the CG right after the fall when God prophesies about the “seed of the woman” in Genesis 3:15. Whereas the covenant of works is conditional and promises blessing for obedience and cursing for disobedience, the covenant of grace is unconditional and is given freely on the basis of God’s grace. The CG takes the form of ancient land-grant treaties, in which a king would give land to a recipient as a gift, no strings attached. One can argue that faith is a condition of the covenant of grace. There are many exhortations in the Bible for the recipients of God’s unconditional grace to remain faithful to the end, so in a very real sense, maintaining faith is a condition of the CG. But the Bible clearly teaches that even saving faith is a gracious gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9).
We see the covenant of grace manifested in the various unconditional covenants God makes with individuals in the Bible. The covenant God makes with Abraham (to be his God and for Abraham and his descendants to be His people) is an extension of the CG. The Davidic covenant (that a descendant of David will always reign as king) is also an extension of the CG. Finally, the New Covenant is the final expression of the CG as God writes His law upon our hearts and completely forgives our sins. One thing that should be apparent as we look at these various OT covenants is that they all find their fulfillment in Jesus Christ. The promise to Abraham to bless all the nations was fulfilled in Christ. The Davidic king who will eternally rule over God’s people was also fulfilled in Christ, and the New Covenant was obviously fulfilled in Christ. Even in the Old Covenant there are hints of the CG as all of the OT sacrifices and rituals point forward to the saving work of Christ, our great High Priest (Hebrews 8–10). This is why Jesus can say in the Sermon on the Mount that He came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17).
We also see the CG in action in the OT when God spares His people the judgment that their repeated sin deserves. Even though the stipulations of the Mosaic Covenant (an application of the CW) promised God’s judgment upon Israel for their disobedience to His commands, God deals patiently with His covenant people. This is usually accompanied by the phrase “God remembered the covenant he made with Abraham” (2 Kings 13:23; Psalm 105; Isaiah 29:22; 41:8); God’s promise to fulfill the covenant of grace (which by definition is a one-sided covenant) oftentimes overrode his right to enforce the covenant of works.
That’s a brief description of covenant theology and how it interprets Scripture through the lens of the covenant. A question that sometimes arises regarding covenant theology is whether or not the CG supplants or supersedes the CW. In other words, is the CW obsolete since the Old Covenant is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13)? The Old (Mosaic) covenant, while an application of the CW, is not the CW. Again, the CW goes all the way back to Eden when God promised life for obedience and death for disobedience. The CW is further elaborated in the Ten Commandments, in which God again promises life and blessing for obedience and death and punishment for disobedience. The Old Covenant is more than just the moral law codified in the Ten Commandments. The Old Covenant includes the rules and regulations regarding the worship of God. It also includes the civil law that governed the nation of Israel during the theocracy and monarchy. With the coming of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah of the OT, many aspects of the Old Covenant become obsolete because Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant types and figures (again see Hebrews 8–10). The Old Covenant represented the “types and shadows,” whereas Christ represents the “substance” (Colossians 2:17). Again, Christ came to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17). As Paul says, “For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so through him the ‘Amen’ is spoken by us to the glory of God” (2 Corinthians 1:20).
However, this does not abrogate the covenant of works as codified in the moral law. God demanded holiness from His people in the OT (Leviticus 11:44) and still demands holiness from His people in the NT (1 Peter 1:16). As such, we are still obligated to fulfill the stipulations of the CW. The good news is that Jesus Christ, the last Adam and our covenant Head, perfectly fulfilled the demands of the CW and that perfect righteousness is the reason why God can extend the CG to the elect. Romans 5:12-21 describes the situation between the two ‘federal’ heads of the human race. Adam represented the human race in the Garden and failed to uphold the CW, thereby plunging him and his posterity into sin and death. Jesus Christ stood as man’s representative, from His temptation in the wilderness all the way to Calvary, and perfectly fulfilled the CW. That is why Paul can say, “As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22).
In conclusion, Covenant Theology views the Scriptures as manifestations of either the CW or the CG. The entire story of redemptive history can be seen as God unfolding the CG from its nascent stages (Genesis 3:15) all the way through its fruition in Christ. Covenant Theology is, therefore, a very Christocentric way of looking at Scripture because it sees the OT as the promise of Christ and the NT as the fulfillment in Christ. Some have accused Covenant Theology as teaching what is called “Replacement Theology” (i.e., the Church replaces Israel). This couldn’t be further from the truth. Unlike Dispensationalism, Covenant Theology does not see a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church. Israel constituted the people of the God in the OT, and the Church (which is made up of Jew and Gentile) constitutes the people of God in the NT; both just make up one people of God (Ephesians 2:11-20). The Church doesn’t replace Israel; the Church is Israel and Israel is the Church (Galatians 6:16). All people who exercise the same faith as Abraham are part of the covenant people of God (Galatians 3:25-29).
Many more things can be said regarding Covenant Theology, but the important thing to keep in mind is that Covenant Theology is an interpretive grid for understanding the Scriptures. As we have seen, it is not the only interpretive grid for reading Scripture. Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism have many differences, and sometimes lead to opposite conclusions regarding certain secondary doctrines
http://www.gotquestions.org/covenant-theology.html
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becauseHElives
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quote:
Galatians 1:11 - 12 (NASB)
For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
His plans for His church are different from His plans for Israel.
His message to His church is different from His message to Israel.
He appointed a different Apostle for His Gentiles than those he chose for Israel.
There is an obvious difference between being told to live by the Law of Moses, and being told we are saved by Grace apart from the Law!
We walk in the Spirit and live by the Law of CHRIST, not the Law of Moses.
but the Gospel to the Jew is the same Gospel to the Gentiles....One Gospel for the entire human race ....not two as the Berean Bible Society teaches....
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
I am re-reading my post verses your posts and the "heart" issue you speak of is certainly not coming from me.
I'm not the one getting mad.
To me it isn't about Jewish; it's about the Law. If a Chinese or a Native American or anyone else said we have to obey Torah for blessings, then I would disagree. We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ, and we are to walk in the Spirit and obey Him. Abide in Him, bear spiritual fruit to His glory, and do the good works He has prepared for us to do.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ
(Ephesians 1:3)
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Betty Louise
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I love you, too Carol. Thank you Carol, for posting that.
Messianic Jews see them selves different. They are prideful in that they think that they are step closer to Jesus because they were born Jewish. Of course they deny their pride, but their insistence in obeying Jewish laws and setting themselves apart from just "Christians" show that it is true. While I believe that the Jews are God's chosen people and during the tribulation God will focus His attention on Israel and Her people, God does not have two classes of Christian- Jewish Christians and Christians. But until the rapture there is no more value in being a Jewish Christian then saying you are a American Christian.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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Betty ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) Love ya gal
Adherents to Messianic Judaism are described as Messianic Jews, Messianic Believers, or Messianics for short. Although terms used to identify adherents of Messianic Judaism are frequently disputed, the terms used generally describe someone who holds to the belief that Jesus is the Messiah and who embraces "the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, and renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant." "Messianic Judaism" is a relatively new term, coined as recently as 1895 to help separate the practices of its followers from those of common Christianity as a whole, and in order to more closely align its practices with that of biblical and historical Judaism.
Despite the central theological importance accorded Jesus, Messianic Judaism sees itself as related to Judaism. Followers of Messianic Judaism call their religious leaders rabbis, they call their houses of worship synagogues, and their articles of faith emphasize what they call their Jewishness. Messianic Jews differ from Jews who are Christians in that they emphasize Judaism in orientation, practice and worship, rather than following Christian hierarchies, organizational forms and habits.
(Wikipedia)
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Betty Louise
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It is not because you are a Jewish believer it is because you are trying to turn Christians into Jews.
That is not Biblical.
You are wrong. You either cannot see that or you are too prideful to admit you are wrong.
Being a nurse is a great profession but it does not make you perfect. I worked in surgery for two years. Nurses and doctors are not perfect.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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yahsway
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Carol,why do you still insist on berating me? I have apologized for the 3 times i misspelled your name. I was trying to break the ice and bring a little bit of humor to the way you got so offended by my misspelling your name when i said "stone me", it was a joke.
It appears to me, and i maybe wrong because i don't know you that well, but appears you are very insensitive towards people who do not agree with you.
I am re-reading my post verses your posts and the "heart" issue you speak of is certainly not coming from me.
Yes, I am a nurse, i work with Alzheimers patients, i take care of 44 of them on my unit by myself with 2 techs. I have not killed anyone yet, but how and why did my job come up into the issue, why would you be so insensitive to someone who takes care of others.
I see i as a Jewish believer in Yeshua am not welcome here. Sorry Carol for offending you. Just wanted to put in what i have been learning at theology school and sorry its not important enough to at least learn from one another. Shalom all, will be going back to Worthyboards. At least they are a little more respectful there.
Shalom Chavarim
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Betty, if you use the King James version then you do have the Torah for its the 1st 5 books Genesis, Exodus, Lev. Numbers, Duet. or do you just neglect that part of the word of God?
Carol, one of my best friends, an RN at work spells her name CAROLE, this is how i have been used to spelling that name, I did NOT do this on purpose as you say I did. You really are an arrogant person aren't you? I have apologized to you, would you have me burned at the stake for misspelling your name? I mean, what else can i say, i am sorry for misspelling your name. If thats not enough, stone me then, Lol!
Burned at the stake? Stone you? I'm arrogant because I pointed out that you've been misspelling this for months? I really just wanted our readers to see your true heart. Thank you for showing them so clearly.
It is interesting that the issue the Jerusalem Council was dealing with is still very much an issue in the church today. There are groups still teaching that Christians must obey the Old Testament Law. Whether it is the Sabbath day, or the food laws, or all of the Old Testament Law outside of the sacrificial system – there are groups which declare observance of the Law is either required for salvation, or at least a crucially important aspect of the Christian life. Sadly, these groups either completely ignore, or grossly misinterpret, the decision of the Jerusalem Council. The specific goal of the Jerusalem Council was to decide what aspects, if any, of the Old Testament Law, Christians must observe. The Jerusalem Council chose two of the food laws (strangling and blood) and two laws that were aspects of the Ten Commandments (idolatry and sexual immorality). (See Noahide Law following). There was no mention of the Sabbath whatsoever. Further, the Jerusalem Council made it abundantly clear that these rules were not requirements for salvation by reaffirming that salvation is by grace for both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 15:11). How many arguments would be solved if the church today would simply follow the decision of the Jerusalem Council?
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The Seven Laws of Noah listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are:
Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
Establishment of law courts
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Carol Swenson
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WildB, I don't know what to say. Thank you. But you made me spill my coffee.
Despite similarities with contemporary Jewish use(s) of the Old Testament, the New Testament writers interpreted the Old Testament in a radically new way. New Testament writers did not deliberately use a different exegetical method. They wrote from a different theological perspective. The writers of the New Testament were convinced that the true meaning of the Old Testament is Jesus Christ and that He alone provides the means of understanding it. True interpretation of the Old Testament is achieved by reading Old Testament passages or incidents in light of the event of Christ. While many of the Old Testament texts quoted in the New Testament had already been accepted as messianic (for example, Psalms 110:1) or could in light of Jesus' actual life claim to be messianic (Psalms 22:1; Isaiah 53:1), for the early Christians, all Scripture was to be interpreted by the fact of Christ because it is to Him that the Old Testament Scripture points (John 5:39). In summary, the New Testament writer quoted or alluded to the Old Testament in order to demonstrate how God's purposes have been fulfilled and are being fulfilled in Jesus.
(Holman Bible Dictionary)
Dispensationalism is the result of the consistent literal interpretation of Scripture. It is not an artificial system to be superimposed over God’s Word. When people interpret God’s Word in a literal manner and do so with consistency, dispensational distinctives are recognized. When there is a deviation from literal interpretation, dispensational distinctives are missed or abandoned.
When the Dispensation of Grace began, there already existed a canon of Scripture. This Old Testament canon had been completed about 400 years prior to Jesus’ birth. That canon did not contain the truths necessary for the conduct of the Grace believer. For this reason, God the Holy Spirit bore along the New Testament writers to record precisely the revelation necessary for the Grace Believer. Thus, the canon, having been closed for 400 years, was expanded.
When the Spirit bore these men along, He made use of the Old Testament scriptures. He did so by means of quotations and paraphrased references. These quotations and references uphold the Old Testament scriptures as God’s Word. There are places in which the Holy Spirit brings out a whole new understanding of a Scripture. However the Holy Spirit employed the Old Testament Scriptures in the New, He did not twist or allegorize those Scriptures.
Both dispensationalists and non-dispensationalists can easily read and agree that the Old Testament Scriptures are quoted within the New. The non-dispensationalist frequently refers to this as an application. This is also repeated by some inconsistent dispensationalists. Yet, when the interpreter misapplies the Old Testament Scriptures, he in reality reinterprets those very Scriptures to fit the present circumstances. This undermines literal interpretation and the clear distinctions which result.
The writers of the New Testament, as was the case with the Old Testament writers, wrote Scripture as the Holy Spirit bore them along (cp 2 Peter 1:21). The Biblical truth of inspiration is sometimes misstated, “The writers were inspired men who wrote Scripture.” The Scriptures do not apply inspiration to the writers but to the writings (2 Timothy 3:16). The truths which they recorded were recorded precisely. Every thought which God desired to reveal, God the Holy Spirit revealed by matching that thought with the exact words which would communicate it accurately (1 Corinthians 2:9-13). It is important to understand that the writers of Scripture were not writing independently of the Spirit, nor were they merely helped. The Spirit bore them along so that everything was written down exactly as God desired it to be stated. This allowed the Spirit to bear individually each writer, so that Paul sounds like Paul, Peter like Peter and so on. The Spirit allows the character and concerns of the writers to show, even using these to accomplish His will. As a result the Bible is a book authored by God and men with every word of the original autographs being precisely those God desired.
When the New Testament writers were being borne along by the Spirit to record this truth, they did quote the Old Testament. Their writings express their understanding of those Old Testament Scriptures. Because of the work of the Holy Spirit, they were able to understand those Old Testament Scriptures as perhaps they had not previously been understood. However, their writings still express an interpretation which is consistent with literalism.
Paul employs over 62 quotations of Old Testament passages in Romans. This is only a sample of the total number of quotations which he uses in all his letters. This sample does provide a good representation of how Paul makes use of the Old Testament. Paul was a pharisee of the pharisees. Paul thoroughly knew the Old Testament. Paul was also the receipient of the mystery of the dispensation of grace (Ephesians 3:9). He knew that the believer no longer lives under law but under grace. Paul wrote 2 Timothy 3:16 in which he expressed his complete confidence in all Scripture. Yet that confidence did not extend to the applicability of all Scripture. This is demonstrated by Paul quoting the Old Testament 62 times in Romans without applying even one quotation to the Grace believer. This is consistent with the proper use of Old Testament Scriptures.
The Grace believer can learn from Paul. If Paul, borne along by the Holy Spirit did not misuse Scripture, then it would be a fitting example for the Grace believer to also approach all Scripture in this manner. Not only are the Old Testament Scriptures misused. Frequently New Testament Scriptures are quoted out of context and misused. All Scripture is indeed profitable. It is only profitable when it is properly understood. Misused and misquoted Scripture is not profitable for it leads one astray from properly understanding what God is doing and will do. Scripture profitable for different things, but it is not all profitable in the same way. This is demonstrated by Paul’s use of those writings which already existed as Scripture when the Spirit bore him along to pen his letters. It is a use which is consistent with the original context and does not violate a literal interpretation of Scripture and results in the recognition of dispensational distinctions.
http://www.graceteaching.com/notes/paulsuseofot.pdf
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Betty Louise
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posted
While the Old Testament contains books that are in the Torah there is a difference. Go and buy a Torah and you will see there is a difference. We are not to become Jewish to be saved. NO ONE keeps the law of Leviticus. Trying to live under the law is wrong, Paul said so.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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yahsway
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Amen becauseHeLives, there is only One gospel, one people of God and One Kingdom. Dual theology is to seperate Gods people into 2 different camps and Yeshua has only ONE.
Yeshua blasted the Pharisees and Sadusees for their teaching their Man-made Laws which was the Oral Torah(teachings) which was their interpretations of Gods laws in our King James Version of the Scriptures)
Even Yeshua asked them "Why do you transgress the Commandments of God because of your traditions?"
They were following their laws which were fences put around Gods original laws in the Scriptures.
One more thing for Betty, you know that Apostle Paul quoted from the Torah and the Tenach in his epistles dont you? And you do know there is a difference of "being under the law" AND "works of the Law" dont you? They are 2 different things.
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yahsway
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Betty, if you use the King James version then you do have the Torah for its the 1st 5 books Genesis, Exodus, Lev. Numbers, Duet. or do you just neglect that part of the word of God?
Carol, one of my best friends, an RN at work spells her name CAROLE, this is how i have been used to spelling that name, I did NOT do this on purpose as you say I did. You really are an arrogant person aren't you? I have apologized to you, would you have me burned at the stake for misspelling your name? I mean, what else can i say, i am sorry for misspelling your name. If thats not enough, stone me then, Lol!
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Yahshua is not a name.
It IS our Lord Jesus Christ speaking through Paul.
Galatians 1:11 - 12 (NASB)
For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
His plans for His church are different from His plans for Israel.
His message to His church is different from His message to Israel.
He appointed a different Apostle for His Gentiles than those he chose for Israel.
There is an obvious difference between being told to live by the Law of Moses, and being told we are saved by Grace apart from the Law!
Becausehelives should really stop acting like he is the moderator of this section of the board.
I have full confidence in your understanding of the rightful division of the Word as it matters to correct Dispensation.
It is clear to all why you are this sections Moderator and not Becausehelives.
Thankyou for the hours of prayer and study that you have faithfully done on your own time over the years to maintain the integrity of this Grace BBS.
I have come to know you and love you with great respect as a great sister in the Lord, who unlike some, is deserving the title of Moderator.
Keep up the Good fight for The Gospel of Grace committed unto Paul by our Lord Jesus Christ.
MostRespectfully,
In service of God and Country.
WKG USNR BT2
![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
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That is all.....
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
If you agree with the Berean Bible Society's position Yahshua / Jesus's message is only a by line to the real message of the Apostle Paul.
It IS our Lord Jesus Christ speaking THROUGH Paul.
Galatians 1:11 - 12 (NASB)
For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
His plans for His Church are different from His plans for Israel.
His message to His Church is different from His message to Israel.
He appointed a different Apostle for His Gentiles than those he chose for Israel.
There is an obvious difference between being told to live by the Law of Moses, and being told we are saved by Grace apart from the Law.
We walk in the Spirit and live by the Law of CHRIST, not the Law of Moses.
Gospel means good news. There are not two different good news. The only gospel is the gospel of Jesus the Christ. But the message, the instructions if you will, to Israel and to the Church are different.
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
the question still boils down to...are there two different Gospel?
If you agree with the Berean Bible Society's position Yahshua / Jesus's message is only a by line to the real message of the Apostle Paul.
If I'm not mistaken Yahshua is the main character of the scriptures...New and Old Testament....
John 5:39,
You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
John was referring to Old Testament scriptures....
And here Paul is referring to Old Testament scripture as well....
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 3:14-17
there is only one Gospel, one good news message...
Yahweh has come into the earth through His only begotten Son, Yahshua to become the prophetic Passover Lamb. That all that would accept that Blood would never have to fear death. It was implied at the very first Passover Jew and Gentile would be saved if the Blood was applied...Joshua was a Jew / Caleb was a Gentile. They were both saved that first Passover night.
All Israel new Caleb was a Gentile and that he was one with them...so don't tell me Paul was the first with the revelation....
Paul was the first to be called to preach to the Gentiles the message of Grace....
Grace is displayed all through the New And Old Testament....
no one has ever been saved by law....everyone ever saved new or old testament was saved by Grace...
when Yahweh's True Grace appears,true repentance is right there to be received and acted upon!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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The 12 Apostles, and other Jewish Christians, were living under the Law. They recognized Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, and they hoped He would establish the Kingdom of Israel in all its glory. He will do that when He returns. The 12 Apostles will have 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.
God has always kept some part of Israel alive to preserve and fulfill the blessing and prophecy of the Messiah coming to the world through the bloodline of King David. During second temple Jewish life, there was more than one sect of Judaism. A Jew had a choice of which group to associate with. Among those choices were Zealots, those who would consider fighting for their beliefs; Sadducees, those who accepted only the five books of Moses as divinely inspired; Pharisees, those who accepted the five books of Moses and the writing of the prophets as being divinely inspired; and Messianic Jews, those who believed what the Pharisees did but saw that God had fulfilled messianic prophecy through the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
Some of these Jewish believers still exist today. Whether they refer to themselves as Hebrew Christians, Completed Jews, or Messianic Jews, they all share the same common ground. That shared belief is an understanding and love for the Messiah and a desire to be obedient to His will.
The Church is different from Israel.
Paul taught that Jesus is reigning now from Heaven, His Holy Spirit is within us, and we are under Grace, not Law. The promise to the Church, the Body and Bride of Christ, made of both Gentiles and Jews, is Heaven, not the Messianic Kingdom of Israel. However, the Bride will return from Heaven with Christ and will reign with Him for the 1000 years of the Messianic Kingdom before the eternal state begins.
Israel and the Church are separate. The Messianic Kingdom for Israel was prophesied. The Church was a Mystery.
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Carol Swenson
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yahsway
quote:
I am still not in agreement with you Carol, and sorry for the misspelling of your name. I am a nurse and work 7p-7a and had not been asleep when i wrote that.
I'm a Security Guard and I also work overnight shifts.
You don't have to agree with me. I'm not a standard or authority, just a person sharing and defending my beliefs. But, I will "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."
You misspell my name on purpose; you've been doing it a long time.
quote:
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738 posted October 24, 2010 18:21
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Carole, of course by the time 2 Peter was written, Pauls letters were viewed as COMPARABLE with the rest of the Scriptures, that being said though, Paul was not referring to his letters to Timothy but was referring to the Old Testament Scriptures.
quote:
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738 posted October 25, 2010 13:03
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Betty, i am not referring to BarryKind, i am referring to becauseHeLives post on unforgiveness and Caroles response as how forgiveness has something to do with being a law-keeper.
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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738 posted October 29, 2010 09:47
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Carole, for clarification, (and as WildB states "for the baseball fans, Lol) what was the addition?
quote:
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
posted January 10, 2011 08:55
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Carole, the "division" started after the Bar Kochba revolution. You need to study history and find out what happened to all those "Myriads" of Jewish believers in Christ.
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Carol Swenson
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Although every man at any time is saved by the grace of God through faith, the content of faith differs from one dispensation to the next. That is, the message that is offered and believed for righteousness and salvation varies according to God’s progressive revelation.
Various people at sundry times were counted righteous as a result of faithful obedience to separate messages.
Where Abraham was counted righteous as a result of his obedience of faith to a promised nation, Moses taught the obedience of faith in the law for righteousness (Genesis 15:6, Deut 6:25). John the Baptist taught water baptism for remission of sins, and Jesus taught seeking the kingdom as a gospel worthy of righteousness (Mark 1:4, Matt 6:33).
Later the disciples witnessed the death and resurrection of the Messiah and testified of the endurance of the saints for attaining salvation (1 Peter 1:7-9). The message taught by Peter, James, and John was that Jesus was the promised Son of God, and whomever believed this truth and followed the commandments would be counted worthy of eternal life (Acts 3:26, 1 John 5:12).
Righteousness with the law
Since the beginning ministry of John the Baptist, the disciples taught the necessary obedience of faith to the covenant laws for righteousness. Although faith was always required for justification, it was the active obedience of faith to God’s instructions that would gain a righteous standing before God.
During his earthly ministry, Jesus taught, “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20)
James says, “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone” (James 2:17).
John says, “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous” (1 John 3:7).
Even the New Covenant promised to ‘write the laws in your hearts’ and ‘cause you to do them’ (Heb 8:10, Eze 36:27).
Therefore it was no surprise when if anyone failed to keep the strict standard of righteousness taught by Christ, then they would be condemned!
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” – 1 John 3:9
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” – Hebrews 10:26-27
Righteousness without the law
However, Paul taught the contrary. Instead of preaching the obedience of faith towards the law for righteousness, he taught righteousness by faith only.
“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested …” – Romans 3:21
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” – Romans 4:5
In his exposition of salvation, Paul explains that we are reconciled to God while we were his enemies, disobeying the commandments and ‘strangers from the covenants’ (Eph 2:12).
“For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” – Romans 5:10
Whereas under the message of the disciples righteousness was indicated by their deeds, Paul’s message indicates righteousness as a product of the work of Christ on the cross imputed upon those that believe (Romans 3:22-24, 2 Cor 5:21).
A Different Message Does Not Mean A Different Gospel
Based upon the necessary conditions for righteousness, we can see that Paul taught a different message than the disciples. Whereas, the disciples taught faith in the Christ as the Son of God and commandment-keeping as their standard for righteousness, Paul revealed a message of trusting the function of the death and resurrection for justification (Romans 3:24-25).
Peter taught the crucifixion as the ultimate example of unjust persecution (Acts 2:23, 1 Peter 2:20-24). However, the blood of Christ was something that was necessary for the glory of the gospel preached by Paul (Col 1:14, Romans 3:24).
“But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.” – Gal 6:14
He taught the faith in Christ’s righteous atonement that grants justification apart from any works of the law (Romans 4:5). This message of grace is first taught by the Apostle Paul as it was revealed to him by Christ for he had not learned it from the disciples (Gal 1:11-12).
Misunderstanding this distinction is the cause of so much confusion about salvation. To become assured of our eternal destination a proper understanding of the righteousness without the law is needed.
http://graceambassadors.com/salvation/did-paul-preach-a-different-gospel
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Betty Louise
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I do not use the Torah and do not own on. I am a Christian. I use the King James Bible, Jews do not use the New Testament. I am not trying to be Jewish. I am trying to be the best Christian I can be. It is not about pushing the Torah or Judaism but sharing Jesus with others.
You say you are a Christian but you are a Judiazer. If Paul were alive today, he would condemn you for this. The Apostles could not keep the law. Salvation is not through the law. Salvation is through grace. I have study the books of the law in the Old Testament. No one can keep them. Saying you keep them is a lie.
Jesus said that the Pharisees were pushing a burden on the people even the Pharisees could not keep.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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yahsway
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Betty, only Yeshua can save anyone. The Torah is instructions on how to live for blessings or cursings. that simple. Its not to justify ourselves, The Judaizers you talk about were "some of the sect of the Pharisees" as scripture says and they wanted Gentiles to be "Circumcised", which Paul says whether circumcised or not is of no importance and doesnt save anyone.
God speaks of circumcision of Heart in the Old Test. That was not a New Test concept. God always desired that.
Sinful man has always had a tendency to take any of Gods teachings and make a law out of them. This legalistic tendency does not just happen to Gods Torah, it can happen to any teaching about righteousness.
Most of the Church confuse God's Torah with man-made religious looking laws. One reason why they confuse the two is because of the translation of the word "nomos" in the New Test. Instead of accurately translating it as Torah, the translators just could not break out of their centuries-old tradition of believing that the Torah of Moses has little place, if any, in the life of the believer. Hence, they have chosen a translation of "law" in places where Torah would have been the accurate translation.
Living the Torah is living our New Creation life in Messiah. it is actually His life in us., a life of grace and truth. The Torah is Gods revelation to those born of Him concerning how they are to act in line with the truth of the Good News. (Gal 2:14).
Our relationship to the Torah can change, according to Paul, because it was really SIN that was the problem, NOT the Torah. Paul states it this way "Therefore, did that which is Good (TOrah) become a cause of Death for me? May it never be! Rather it was SIN, in order that it might be shown to be SIN by effecting my death thru that which is good (Torah), that thru the commandment SIN might become utterly sinful."
Here Paul is teaching that our REAL enemy was SIN, Not the Torah. because we are now New Creations in Messiah, our entire relationship to SIN has changed. Therefore, our entire relationship to the Torah has changed.
Hence, after I trusted in Messiah, the Torah became for me what was really meant to be all along, a holy, righteous, and good book.
The Torah is Gods teaching to men about what righteousness is and how it behaves. The true believer, anyone redeemed by the blood of the Lamb does not DO in order to Become. He does because he is what God has made him, the righteousness of God In Messiah.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
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posted
Paul made it clear that Judiasers were guilty of pride. The Jews could not keep the Torah in those and neither can we. We DO NOT need to become Jewish to be saved. Please stop thinking that the Torah can save you, only the blood of Jesus.
betty
p.s.
hubby was looking over my shoulder and neither of us saw left out a word
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
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posted
I am still not in agreement with you Carol, and sorry for the misspelling of your name. I am a nurse and work 7p-7a and had not been asleep when i wrote that.
Just came in this morning and see that with you Carol, you are not very polite in how you approach, i mean, anyone can make the mistake of misspelling. you come off as being flipant and arrogant. And you dont have to agree with anything i say either, but politeness to another would be nice.
Again I apologize, when i wake up today, i will expound on my post.
I will add this, I am sure if you went to theology school you no doubt have read "The New Testament Survey" by Tenney. it is one of the standard textbooks in many bible colleges for New Test introduction or survey courses.
He sites that it was not merely a transition from a predominately Jewish body of Messiah to a predominatly Gentile one, rather it was also a transition "from law to grace"
If there was such a theological transition intended by God, then we would expect to see fewer and fewer believers following the Torah. Instead, Acts 21 tells us that some 30 years AFTER Yeshua sent His students around the world to tell others of His grace, there grew such a strong Jewish congregation in Jerusalem that it was noted "how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Torah"
Notice fisrt the number of people, the Greek word is Myraids, meaning tens of thousands. If there was a God-designed theological transition from "law to grace", someone should have told these hoards of Messianic zealots! After all, 30 years is 30 years, a long enough time to show signs of such a transition.
And by the time the events in Acts 21 took place, Pauls epistles to the Galations and Romans were history according to Tenney. To be sure, because Paul had written Galations and Romans by that time, his views about the Torah began to be misunderstood. so much so that in Acts 21:17-26, the leaders of the Jerusalem council challenged him concerning his views.
And here was Pauls golden theological moment.What Paul did at this point should have been the decisive moment for all of the subsequent history of the Church concerning the Proper attitude of the believer toward the Torah.
However, while what Paul chose to do was absolutely clear in the text and to all who witnessed his actions, it certainly was not heeded by the rest of the Church, judging by the centuries of anti-Torah rhetoric that followed.
Paul chose to uphold the Torah of Moses, he chose to follow it and to encourage , even teach other believers in Yeshua to make it their lifestyle. Acts 21:23-26 makes this clear in no uncertain terms.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Seven Basic Bible Facts
Every Christian Should Know and Believe
By Robert C. Brock
Editor of the Journal of Pauline Dispensationalism
FACT NO. 1—That the Bible MUST be rightly divided in order for it to make sense. Notice what it says: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the Word of truth" (II Tim. 2:15). This is one of the cardinal rules for interpreting the whole Bible. Neglect of this rule or a faulty use of it will lead to only one result, CONFUSION, since our God is not the author of confusion.
The reason for a right division of the Bible is because of God's two distinct purposes: (1) His purpose concerning Israel and the world according to PROPHECY, and (2) His purpose concerning the Gentiles in this present age according to the MYSTERY revealed to Paul. God doesn't want us to confuse the teaching of these two purposes. He has very graciously given us the key for a proper understanding of this.
FACT NO. 2—That the DISTINCTIVENESS of Pauline truth is a most important doctrine of the Bible. The risen Lord Jesus Christ revealed His heart and His mind to the Apostle Paul: "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it but by THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" (Gal. 1:11,12). "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward; how that BY REVELATION He made known unto me the MYSTERY..." (Eph. 3:2,3).
This proves conclusively that Paul did not preach what the 12 Apostles preached. Rather he went up to Jerusalem to TELL THEM of the special gospel of grace that Christ gave to him (Gal. 2:2). He preached Jesus Christ according to the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY which was kept secret, hid in God (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:9). He was the Apostle to the Gentiles and magnified his office (Rom. 11:13).
FACT NO. 3—That the gospel we are to preach is called the Gospel of the grace of God. "But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy and the ministry which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD" (Acts 20:24). This is God's only message for the lost in this present age. We are to follow Paul as he followed Christ (I Cor. 11:1). In his writings ALONE do we find the doctrine, position, walk, and destiny of the Christian.
Some other important aspects of grace are:
1. We are saved by GRACE—Eph. 2:8,9.
2. We are justified freely by His GRACE—Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7.
3. His GRACE is sufficient for us—II Cor. 12:9.
4. We are not under Law but under GRACE—Rom. 6:14,15.
5. This age is the age of GRACE —Eph. 3:2.
6. We are to approach the throne of GRACE in prayer—Heb. 4:16.
FACT NO. 4—That the Bible definitely teaches that water baptism was and is a part of Israel's religion (Heb. 6:1,2; 9:10). It was for the remission of sins and was by sprinkling (Mark 1:4; Acts 2:38; Ezek. 36:25).
In this age there is only ONE baptism, not two: "One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM" (Eph. 4:5). This baptism is the placing of the Christian into the Church, the Body of Christ, by the Holy Spirit: "For by one SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (I Cor. 12:13). This baptism takes place once for all at the time of salvation.
The Apostle Paul was not sent to baptize with water: "For Christ sent me NOT TO BAPTIZE but to preach the gospel..." (I Cor. 1:17). Only a change in God's purpose would necessitate a statement like this. There is no importance attached to water baptism, today. It is not a part of Christianity and only causes confusion.
FACT NO. 5—That we must understand the two-fold ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ. During His earthly ministry He ministered exclusively to Israel: "But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL" (Matt. 15:24). His whole ministry to the Nation was under the Law of Moses (Matt. 5:17; Gal. 4:4,5). Christians are not under the Law so we are not to live according to Israel's teachings.
During His present ministry in Heaven, He is ministering according to what He revealed to the Apostle Paul. He is saving men according to His gospel of Grace. He is at the throne of grace making intercession for us (Rom. 8:34). We are to live in Paul's epistles where pure Christianity is found. This is not to say we should neglect the rest of the Bible. It is ALL for us but not all TO us (I Cor. 10:6,11).
FACT NO. 6—That SIGNS belong to the Nation of Israel and its religion: "For the JEWS REQUIRE A SIGN, and the Gentiles seek after wisdom" (I Cor. 1:22). Speaking in tongues is a SIGN: "Wherefore TONGUES are for a SIGN, not to them that believe but to them that believe not..." (I Cor. 14:22).
In Jesus' day, those who sought after signs were called an evil and adulterous generation (Matt. 12:39). The eight miracles of the Gospel of John are properly called SIGNS, which included the rising of Lazarus from the dead; and in the commission of Mark 16:15-18, water baptism is associated with SIGNS. This is proved in the book of Acts because everywhere water baptism is mentioned a SIGN is mentioned in the immediate context.
This present age is a signless age. We have been blessed with all SPIRITUAL blessings in the heavenlies in Christ (Eph. 1:3). This is where the emphasis lies for the Christian.
FACT NO. 7—That the COMMISSION the Church, the Body of Christ, is to work under, is found in II Corinthians 5:14-21 and Ephesians 3:9. The Kingdom commission of Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15-18 does not belong to God's present grace purpose. The message of reconciliation has been committed to US, the Body of Christ.
RESULTS:
1. The Christian would begin to perceive and grasp the deep things of God (I Cor. 2:10-12).
2. There would be a wonderful growth into spiritual maturity and adulthood (Eph. 4:12-15).
3. He would become a faithful steward of the mysteries of God (I Cor. 2:7; 4:1,2).
4. He would possess the Biblical answer to Satan's false cults like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Unitarians, Modernists, etc. They all borrow some aspects of Israel's religion.
5. A mighty revival would take place if Christians would get back to Pauline truth.
My friend, if you are not saved, the grace of God invites you to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour. You are a sinner and need to be saved (Rom. 3:23). "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:31). "...now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation" (II Cor. 6:2). It is infinitely better to receive Him and spend eternity in Heaven than to reject Him and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire!
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
quote:
Peter was rebuked publicly for his hypocrisy. It did not continue as a schism between the two Apostles.
No it didn't continue as a schism. But the point is that the church went through a transitional period. Revelation was progressive.
quote:
It was in Acts 15 where Peter again declares the same Gospel which was delivered to the Gentiles by his,(Peter's), hand as was delivered to the Jews, with the confirmation by the infilling of the Holy Ghost. The same Gospel which with the Elders in Jerusalem commissioned Paul.
Before He could save the Gentiles, God had to prepare Peter to bring the message, (Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." Acts 10:15), and Cornelius to hear the message. This event occurred 10 years after Pentecost. It was another 10 years before the Jerusalem Council.
So, after 20 years the Jerusalem church still observed the Law of Moses, and had to debate about the Gentiles observing it!
Paul was converted about 4 years after the crucifixion. He spent 3 years in Arabia then 10 years in Tarsus before he went to Antioch with Barnabus. The Jerusalem Council was 2 years later.
The transition from the Jews to the Samaritans to the Gentiles was a gradual one.
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Both Peter and Paul received from God special visions directing them to go to the Gentiles (Acts 10:1ff; 22:21). However, it was Paul whom God set apart as the apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 11:13; Gal. 2:6-10; Eph. 3:1-12). If Gentile sinners had to obey the Law of Moses in order to be saved, then why did God give Paul the Gospel of grace and send him off to the Gentiles? God could just as well have sent Peter!
At the Council, Peter reviewed God’s ministries to the Gentiles in the past, and Paul and Barnabas reported on God’s work among the Gentiles in that present day. James was the final speaker and he focused on the future.
James related it all to the future.
James was a brother to Jesus (Matt. 13:55; Gal. 1:19) and the writer of the Epistle of James. He and his brethren were not believers in Christ until after the Resurrection (John 7:5; 1 Cor. 15:7; Acts 1:14). James had strong leanings toward the Law (there are at least ten references to law in his epistle), so he was most acceptable to the legalistic party in the Jerusalem church.
The key idea in James’ speech is agreement. First, he expressed his full agreement with Peter that God was saving the Gentiles by grace. It must have startled the Judaizers when James called these saved Gentiles “a people for His [God’s] name,” because for centuries the Jews had carried that honorable title (see Deut. 7:6; 14:2; 28:10). Today, God is graciously calling out a people, the church, from both Jews and Gentiles. In fact, the Greek word for “church” (ekklesia) means “a called out assembly” (kaleo = to call; ek = out). But if they are called out, then their salvation is all of grace and not through the keeping of the Law!
The Judaizers did not understand how the Gentiles and the Jews related to each other in the church, or how the church fit into God’s promise to establish a kingdom for Israel. The Old Testament declared both the salvation of the Gentiles (Isa. 2:2; 11:10) and the future establishing of a glorious kingdom for Israel (Isa. 11-12; 35; 60), but it did not explain how they related to each other. The legalists in the church were jealous for both the future glory of Israel and the past glory of Moses and the Law. It seemed to them that their acceptance of the Gentiles as “spiritual equals” jeopardized the future of Israel.
We today have a better grasp of this truth because Paul explained it in Ephesians 2-3 and Romans 9-11. Saved Jews and Gentiles are both members of the same body and “one in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:28). The truth about the church, the body of Christ, was a “mystery” (a sacred secret) hidden in past ages and revealed to the church by the Spirit. God’s “mystery program” for the church does not cancel His great “prophecy program” for Israel. Paul makes it clear in Romans 9-11 that there is a future for Israel and that God will keep His “kingdom promises” to His people.
James stated that the prophets also agreed with this conclusion, and he cited Amos 9:11-12 to prove his point. Note that he did not state that what Peter, Paul, and Barnabas had said was a fulfillment of this prophecy. He said that what Amos wrote agreed with their testimony. A careful reading of Amos 9:8-15 reveals that the prophet is describing events in the end times, when God will regather His people Israel to their land and bless them abundantly. If we “spiritualize” these promises, we rob them of their plain meaning and James’ argument falls apart.
Amos also prophesied that the fallen house (“tent”) of David would be raised up and God would fulfill His covenant with David that a king would sit on his throne (see 2 Sam. 7:25-29). This future King, of course, will be Jesus Christ, the Son of David (2 Sam. 7:13, 16; Isa. 9:6-7; Luke 1:32) who will reign over Israel during the kingdom. In fact, the only Jew alive today who can prove His genealogy and defend His kingship is Jesus Christ!
God revealed these truths gradually to His people, but His plan had been settled from the beginning. Neither the Cross nor the church were afterthoughts with God (Acts 2:23; 4:27-28; Eph. 1:4). The Judaizers thought that Israel had to “rise” in her glorious kingdom before the Gentiles could be saved, but God revealed that it was through Israel’s “fall” that the Gentiles would find salvation (Rom. 11:11-16). At the time of the Jerusalem Conference, David’s house and throne indeed were fallen; but they would be restored one day and the kingdom established.
(Wiersbe)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Galatians 2:11 - 14 (NASB)
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?"
Peter was rebuked publicly for his hypocrisy. It did not continue as a schism between the two Apostles.
It was in Acts 15 where Peter again declares the same Gospel which was delivered to the Gentiles by his,(Peter's), hand as was delivered to the Jews, with the confirmation by the infilling of the Holy Ghost. The same Gospel which with the Elders in Jerusalem commissioned Paul.
Acts 15:
15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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