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Betty

becauseHElives keeps hammering that same nail over and over. We've told him a hundred times that Eternal Security is not a license to sin.

The two extremes to avoid are legalism and license.

We cannot earn salvation with obedience and holy living; we cannot add anything to the cross of Christ.

But a true born again believer loves Jesus Christ. Loves Him and wants to please Him by obeying Him - His Word and His Holy Spirit.

We can tell that to becauseHElives another few hundred times, and he still won't hear us because he's stuck in a box and can't see anything beyond the nail in front of him, and can't hear anything but the pounding of his hammer.

Bummer.

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Thats exactly how i feel about you, Betty, and Bill...[edit..i meant to include Carol also]

I feel as you perhaps do, you have ears and cannot hear, eyes and cannot see...

i pray for yall, as i hope you for me...
Pray about it, ask YHWH God to show you ask Him if your heart is hard, and Pleaseask HIM to give you a love of the truth!

Most of all we should pray that a root of bitterness not come into our hearts, for many shall be defiled....



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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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I look at it like this. If you've ever been a tenant somewhere and had a lease, you know sometimes the top of the lease is in bold black ink and usually says something like: I (your name) hereby enters into a contractual agreement with (Realtor) to lease the building/apartment at (location) for a fee of $_____ per month.

Below these opening lines there is usually a list of 20 or more bullet points of fine print, listing the conditions of your tenancy. Such as:
*Loud music will not be played past 10:00pm or before 9:00am
*Animals are not allowed in this apartment complex
*Garbage will not be thrown from windows or placed in hallways
*Smoking is prohibited in hallways and lobby
*Drinking alcoholic beverages is prohibited in hallways and lobby
*Alteration of landscape is prohibited except by written consent from (Realtor)
*etc etc etc

It usually ends with something like
*Violation of these terms and conditions will be grounds for the termination of your lease agreement.

The OSAS crowd most of the time only looks at the top of the 'lease agreement' to salvation, and screams "Jesus made my payment, I have the right to live here no matter what!" Or in other words "I accepted Christ, and I'm saved no matter what!". Never....I mean NEVER do they read the terms and conditions of their 'tenancy'. I will even say, in my experience, most of them don't know the fine print even exists. For if they did, they would not believe in the heresy.

I would strongly urge you to reject this doctrine of devils; it leads to a path of destruction, and gives people every excuse in the book to be despicable, apathetic human beings.


The proof that having to emulate Jesus didn't end after the crucifixion and mid-acts dispensationalism is mostly incorrect, and the verses I am posting come from the apostles long after the crucifixion and even Paul himself.

Which kind of people would you rather have?

Which would you rather trust if you had to?

A Christian who believes you have to follow Christ, and obey His commandments, try to be perfect, overcome through Him, and live a holy life?

Or a 'Christian' who believes that they can be as sinful as they want, and it will never make a difference on their soul, everything is ok, don't have to try to BE or DO anything...don't have to give, or care, or have charity, or the fruits of the spirit, nothing.

I think there's no doubt about it, I would go with a REAL Christian any day.

please give close attention to the following scriptures.....

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

OSAS turns the grace of God into lasciviousness and says you can do anything you want, cause you can't lose your salvation.

1st John 3:15 says that "if you hate your 'brother' you're a murderer and no murderer hath eternal life"

Gal 5:19-21 covers adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, HATRED, variance, emulations, WRATH, STRIFE, seditions, heresies, drunkenness, envyings, murders, and revellings...and says such a person living after flesh and not the Spirit has NO inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1st Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1st Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Some people want to interpret this as Paul as saying that if he 'fails the test' he would merely be getting fewer rewards. Do we have scriptural support to prove that those who actually fail will indeed end up straggling into the kingdom? Hopefully this section will prove otherwise.

2nd Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.

Apparently, Paul and others were working to be accepted by God. Some people want to say that the acceptance in this verse only means "to be pleasing", but lets look at what other scriptures have to say about this...


Now John 15:6-10 says IF you keep his commandments you will abide in Him, if you don't, you will be cast forth as a withered branch and burned. But are you still considered one of His as a withered and burning branch?

Rom 8:9 tells us if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Matthew 12:50, Luke 8:21, John 8:31-32, Luke 6:35, James 2:5, 1st John 1:7, and 2:6 ALL put stipulations of DOING things in order to remain in Him as one of His. Titus 1:16 even tells us you can deny Him by your works, and Titus 2:11-14 tells us Christ wants a people who do good works.

Clearly the conclusion is that Jesus has specific requirements of us as Christians, and that we must meet these requirements to remain in Him, for if we don't, it won't merely be receiving fewer rewards in the kingdom, showing that 2 Cor 5:9 is literally talking about acceptance, not just getting fewer rewards, once again demolishing OSAS.

So you ask..."What about being saved by grace? Aren't we all just saved by grace, and not by our works, hence we can't do any works to lose our salvation?"

Well friends, that's a good question, and there is a little known verse that explains the whole "saved by grace" stuff that OSASers spew like there's no tomorrow.

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

As we can all see, this is the grace that saves, it teaches people to be righteous and godly, so if you're claiming to be saved by grace, and yet you're living like the heathen world, then I would seriously question your salvation.

Further support for this is found in Matt 10:33 and Luke 12:9 where Jesus said "if you deny me before man, I will deny you before the Father."
Then we find in Titus that a person can be a denier of God, by their very works.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in WORKS they DENY Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good WORK reprobate.

So now you ask "What about God's grace? Surely His grace can keep you saved."

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled.

The context of this is found in the following verses relating to Esau. The author explains the danger of immorality, and draws a parallel to Esau selling off his birthright for a single meal, and all of his desperate crying could not cause repentance and undo it.

The comparison is that falling out of grace into immorality is akin to Esau's mistake, it cannot be undone. Why warn with such an extreme example if it was not possible? Just another pointless threat?

Is the picture getting any clearer? Oh but I'm not done yet.

1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. (This proves that not only is your salvation conditional, but that it also relies on YOU.)

So now the OSAS crowd says "What about being sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit? Eph 4:30"

When a king put his seal upon something, it was an indication that it had his authority and approval, it was not a padlock, it was not a bank vault, it wasn't some kind of barricade. Furthermore, nothing in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation indicates that a seal is unbreakable. In fact, quite the opposite is shown in scriptures. There is a manmade seal and a heavenly seal, both are broken in the Bible...The seal on the tomb was broken when Jesus was resurrected, and the seal on the scroll in Revelation that John saw was also broken.

Many OSASers also leave out the beginning part of Eph 4:30 where it says to not grieve the Holy Spirit...they never stop to wonder what happens if they DO grieve the Spirit by which they are sealed by. Throughout this section I have shown what happens to those who spit in God's face, why would the same not be so for the Holy Spirit?

Now the OSASer resorts to "Well, I trust in the finished work of the cross for my salvation, and that's all I need to do!"

I'm going to bust your bubble on this one. The phrase "trusting in the finished work of the cross" does not exist in scriptures, nor does anything even resemble it. Search for it as you may, there is no such verse.

OSASer says Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "See, Jesus said He never knew them, He doesn't say He knew them once and now He doesn't. This proves they were never saved to begin with."
While the verse alone may be compelling for 'OSAS Lite', it's important to know the context of it. This is not a verse about eternal security, it's actually a verse about the emphasis of works. The important question to ask is WHY is Jesus telling them "I never knew you"? If we look just a few verses prior to this, you'll have the answer. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.. So what was the will of the Father if it wasn't just to prophecy and cast out devils? A few verses prior it says Mat 7:19-20 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. This ties perfectly together with being cast out in verse 23. They did not bear fruit, as many 'mighty' men of God who think they do so much for the Lord, with their evangelizing, and building churches from their thick wallets, have not bore any fruit of the Spirit. I've met a few of them, they can be vile people, and all the charities and mission trips won't mean much to God on their account.

Is there more proof for this? Yes, John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. It is and always has been Faith+Works neither one alone will do.

OSASer says 1Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."See, even if you've done nothing for the Lord, you are still saved.".

This is a lesser known OSAS verse, but it is sometimes used, and can be easily misleading due to the length and complexity of it. These verses start out in verse 11 with Paul saying to the church, that the only foundation we have is Christ, and (figuratively speaking of course) if you build gold, silver, and precious jewels, upon the foundation of Christ, you will receive a reward. But if you build wood, hay, and stubble, upon the foundation of Christ, it will be burned up by fire. Yet the person themself would be saved, and this is true, but there is a condition to this. Remember how the allegory started. Paul is addressing the body of believers telling them the only foundation we have is Christ. So tell me, what if somebody is not abiding in Christ, do they still have Christ?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

How does one abide in Christ?

1 John 2:3-4 We do know that we know him, IF we keep His commandments. If you say you abide in Him you ought to WALK in the same manner as He walked.
3:24 And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

What if you don't have the Spirit?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Looks pretty clear to me. So what are His commandments?

First and foremost, John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another as I have loved you, by THIS shall all men know you are my disciples, if ye love one another.

Further information as to what Jesus and God require of us can be found here, and we know it's not the old Torah, as explained here.

In desperation, the OSASer may throw out 1 Cor 5:5 and say "See, that guy's flesh was destroyed to save his spirit" To which I really have to ask "If there is eternal security, then why did he have to be destroyed in the first place? What danger was his spirit ever in?" The verse is counter-productive to OSAS.

1Peter 1:5 is also sometimes brought up because it says Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Some people would take the verse as meaning you have nothing to do with staying saved. At a first glance, this verse would be very destructive to a lot of my points, but it's really an issue of translation in King James English. Phrureo and phyllaso in the Greek are both translated sometimes as "kept" or "keep" in the Bible and their definitions mean to be guarded or protected, not withheld, retained, or prevented from something. The reason translators used "kept" and "keep" is because of the language at the time, and this can be illustrated by a 'keep' in medieval times being the guarded structure within a castle. It applies in not only 1Peter 1:5 but also in 2Thes 3:3 and Jude 1:24 among others that use phrureo or phylasso, as this is their only definition.

These and other verses were also spoken at the time to counter the dogmatic religious leaders of the day (pharisees), who had the personal power to dictate righteousness and damnation.

So what are we being guarded or protected (kept) from in the context of these verses if it's not preventing the loss of your salvation? We know 1Cor 10:13 says God will not allow you to be tempted beyond means of escape. Sure enough, the verse following 1Peter 1:5 goes right into the temptations and trials of this world. Similarly, the verses following 2Thes 3:3 go into obedience and staying on the straight and narrow, as do the verses immediately prior to Jude 1:24. I believe this settles the context of being kept by God as meaning temptations cannot overpower you, and not as a proof text of eternal security.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Very good Brother, but as water rolls off the back of a duck, so does the truth off the hearts of some believers.

It will truly be a sad day at the judgement, the great and terrible day...

Brother Clendenon once stated in a sermon i listenend to:

He had a dream and this man was in hell, and he kept picking up people by the back of the hair on thier head, and bro. Clendenon ask the Lord, what is that man doing? Bro. Clendenon stated the Lord told him, "the man is looking for the preacher that told him that lie!

Out of all the differences we may have over, doctrine, esp. eschatology, pre, mid, post, pan tribulation,et. el;

The OSAS doctrine as it is taught, esp. by the "wolves in sheeps clothing", such as Charles Stanley... I feel is the most horendous, devilish lie from hell ever perpetrated on the "church" ever!!!



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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Betty

becauseHElives keeps hammering that same nail over and over. We've told him a hundred times that Eternal Security is not a license to sin.

The two extremes to avoid are legalism and license.

We cannot earn salvation with obedience and holy living; we cannot add anything to the cross of Christ.

But a true born again believer loves Jesus Christ. Loves Him and wants to please Him by obeying Him - His Word and His Holy Spirit.

We can tell that to becauseHElives another few hundred times, and he still won't hear us because he's stuck in a box and can't see anything beyond the nail in front of him, and can't hear anything but the pounding of his hammer.

Bummer.

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by WildB:

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Sister Carols post stated:

"But He doesnt leave us"

My question:But isnt it true that the scriptures show that we can leave Him?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end,

Sister Carol, if it is not possible for us to depart from the faith...........how then would you interpret the above verses?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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One more time for U and berry...

Hebrews 10:23-29

Introduction

Hebrews chapter 10 is in many cases a battlefield for the believers. You choose your side and prepare to battle. Someone gives you your ammunition ahead of time so that you don’t have to think much on your own or consider all of the options.

As you are standing on your interpretation someone from the other side fires a shot and puts a hole in your doctrine. What to do now? Do you throw out everything? Probably not….many times it is God himself firing a shot to help you get Bible Doctrine instead of yours. In this study we will TRY to look at this openly.


If salvation can be lost then it was never based on a finished work. Jesus Christ said “It is Finished”. If your salvation is not finished then it is not based on the redeeming work of Christ.

The book of Hebrews was written by Paul and if he wrote in Hebrews that you could lose your salvation then he has brought a curse on himself (Galatians1:9), because he writes all through his epistles about eternal life.

The verses state that if a willful sin is committed by these people that there is no more sacrifice for sins. If this is a saved person then it sounds like the wilfull sins will not be paid for and will be accounted for at the Judgment Seat of Christ. No forgiveness is available between here and there.

Sounds like in verse 29 that this person was sanctified and now they are in danger of judgment.
before we get into the passage let us look at several introductory remarks.

Who Was It Written To

The title of the book says “The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews”. Hebrews1:1 talks about God speaking to the fathers by the prophets, who had fathers and prophets? Hebrews chapter 3 spends time dealing with the fact that Christ is better than Moses. Hebrews chapter 7 talks about the fact that Christ was of a better priestly line than the Levites. Chapters 8 and 9 of Hebrews deal with a better covenant. Hebrews chapter 11 deals with the faith of people who are all a part of the history of Israel.

from the evidence above, we would have to say that this book was written to the Jewish people. This does not mean that we should discard the book of Hebrews or any other Jewish epistles. The book is not written to us, but it is written for us (2 Timothy 3:16).

What Was the Purpose of the Letter?

The book of Hebrews contains the word “better” thirteen times. Christ is better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4), he brought in a better hope than the law (Hebrews 7:19), he was made surety of a better testament (Hebrews 7:22), he is the mediator of a better covenant (Hebrews 8:6), and he was a better sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23).

The book of Hebrews was written to the Jewish people in order to prove that Jesus Christ was “better” than Judaism.

The Time

In order to rightly divide the word of God, we must consider several things. When was the book written, who was it written to, and what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written? We have already discussed who the book was written to, but let us now look at when it was written.

The book of Hebrews was written nearly 30 years after the death of Christ. The temple was still standing and in operation (Hebrews 13:10-11). Jewish people were persecuted when they accepted Christ (Hebrews 10:32), for many Jews were still zealous over the law (Acts 21:20). Many Jewish people were still living under the banner of Judaism and to accept Christ was to reject Judaism.

The Passage

Now we will look at the question, “what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written?”

Verse 23

In verse 23, the Apostle Paul says, “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)”. First notice the word “profession”. A profession is not always true (Romans 1:22). Salvation is not based on our profession, but rather on a belief with the heart and confession of the mouth (Romans 10:9-10). Confession is agreeing with God, for example, when you confess your sins you are agreeing with God against your sins. The Apostle Paul warns the Hebrews not to waver from their profession.

Verses 24-25

These verses were written to exhort the Hebrews to meet together for worship and provoke one another to good works. The early church met often, and one reason was probably to strengthen and encourage each other in times of persecution.

Verses 26-27

Here we have one of the favorite verses of the Armenians, but remember the context of the book of Hebrews. Paul writes, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

Notice three things about this passage.

The sin was done on purpose (willfully). One point to make here is that if this is loss of salvation then we’ve all lost it. You say well I haven’t murdered anyone or committed adultery, but that is not what the verse says. The verse says willful sin. That is anything done knowingly that was unrighteous. Have you lied lately? Probably just a white lie….Have you not done something this week that you knew you should have done (James 4:17)
This person has received the knowledge of the truth.
If this proves that these people were saved then we have some problems.
Were all of the religious leaders saved? According to John 3:2 they knew that Jesus came from God. They had received the knowledge of the truth, but they didn’t all get saved.
The devils time and time again called Jesus the Son of God. Were they saved? No, but they sure did have knowledge of the truth.
So we see that knowledge of the truth in itself merits nothing, but faith in a person is what receives salvation.
After this sin there is no more sacrifice for sin. Keep in mind this is written to the Jewish people. What sin is it when done on purpose, allows no more sacrifice for sins?
Let us look at a scenario. A Jewish boy is born about the time of Christ’s death. He was raised to go to Jerusalem three times a year to appear before the Lord (Exodus 23:14,17; Deuteronomy 16:16). He went through all of the ceremonies and went to the schools of the Hebrews. He was taught to look for the coming of the Messiah, that He would come as a King to deliver His people. Then at about the age of 30, this young man hears a message preached that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that He died for the sins of the whole world. This young man learns more and more about the life of Christ, and begins to compare it with the law and the prophets. God opens his eyes to the fact that Christ was in fact the Messiah and that he must receive Christ by faith. Up to this point he like the apostle Paul has been zealous for God in the law, but now he has “received the knowledge of the truth”. If he receives Christ, then he will be persecuted greatly and his family will probably have a funeral for him and count him as dead. The fear of persecution drives him to “wilfully” reject Christ and return to Judaism. God says to this young man, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”. A spotless lamb or any other sacrifice will no longer hold off the wrath of God, the young man has seen God’s sacrifice. This young man will die and face judgment and fiery indignation, because he rejects God’s sacrifice.

Rejecting Christ is the only sin in this age that will send a man to hell.

Verses 28-29

In verses 28 and 29 Paul writes, “He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” Under the law, the punishment of sin against the commandments in many cases meant death. All it took was the witness of two or three.

According to Hebrews, God hath in these last days spoken unto us by His son. God has three witnesses (1 John 5:7-8). The “sorer punishment” will be poured out on those who “wilfully” reject the Son of God.

Notice in verse 28 that this person has “trodden under foot” the Son of God. When Moses told the children of Israel to put the blood on the side posts and lintel, he said nothing of putting the blood on the floor. In a sense those people were spared by going into the house through or under the blood. To be saved we must go through or under the blood, but this man has lowered the blood and has “trodden under foot”.

Notice next the phrase “wherewith he was sanctified”. The word “sanctified” means to be set apart in holiness. If the word “sanctified” simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture. Remember that the idea of Hebrews is that Jesus Christ is better. Some would say that the person sanctified is the same person who has counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, but look again. Jesus Christ’s blood sanctified himself. The blood set Him apart from bulls, goats, and all other blood either before or after.

Next notice the phrase “despite unto the Spirit of grace.” What this person has done has insulted the spirit of grace. We are saved by grace, and when someone turns from the free offer of salvation to Judaism or any other religion it is a disgrace to the spirit of grace.

Conclusion

In closing we will add evidence that Paul is not talking about the believers backsliding and losing their salvation. In verse 39 Paul says, “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Paul says I’m not talking about us because we have believed to the saving of our soul. These difficult verses when taken in context make more sense and prove once again that the book of Hebrews is about the fact that Jesus Christ is better.

(Forwarded from Ray, Andrew)

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
you are still avoiding the fact that the sin in question is only forgiven in response to and subject to confessing that sin...

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
you are still avoiding the fact that the sin in question is only forgiven in response to and subject to confessing that sin...

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Looks like you are being taken in your own craftiness again.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

What if certain parts of my flea-shin vessel fail to where I could not work Grace as you say?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

VIVA LA RAPTURE!




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That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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there is a very clear condition on Eternal Life.... if you confess your sin .....if, if, if, if, if, if.....he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Carol,
The bible uses the words "born again" and the bible uses the words "falling away/apostacy. Would you be willing to look up both topics and post what you find on both of them.

Once again, my postion on this subject is that if it were not possible to "fall away" or "defect from the faith" that God makes us love Him vs. giving us the freedom to express our love towards Him in return for His love towards us.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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sin committed after one comes to Yahshua are cleansed on the condition that those who continue in Grace walk in continually repentance!

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unconfessed sin will separate you from the love of Yahweh.

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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These are biblical concepts which some people (for whatever reasons) just flat out reject.

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Brother B,
I am not offended when I see the word "we" in other peoples posts. If I dont agree with what comes after the "we"........then I might post a rebuttal. Would you please post your rebuttal. I do not think you would have been so offended by the "we" unless there was something else that you disagreed with???or do you just get offended at all the "we's" on everyones posts....or just my "we's" only??

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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"Deny Yahushua [Jesus the Christ] right now or were going to chop off your head, Stanley's teaching is "even if you deny" your going to heaven..if youve previously ben born again..LIES Carol it lies!

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Betty,
Whether someone has backslidden or fallen away I do not know, and I will not pretend to be God...........but the thing that I do know is that whether or not someone has backslidden or fallen away, he/she can once again be restored to God through repentance and Gods forgiveness.

I am not here trying to cause doubt and fear. I think that our motive should be to come alongside the sinning brother/sister and humbly try and encourage them to be restored to fellowship with God whether they are fallen away or backslidden. This is best done in a spirit of love and a gentle reminder of Gods past track record of goodness in their life.
Thank you for the fellowship Betty. I like your sincerity and I do believe you love the Lord. I do not want to be one to come and make anyone doubt their relationship with God. I would rather be here to encourage more confidence in God and more dependence on His strength.
I do believe that a person can fall away........but only by a continuous and purposeful neglect of Gods warning after warning. Once again, I think the knowledge that one can fall away is useless without a heart desire to see such a one restored to God.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Don't call me Sister Carol. It makes me sound like a nun.

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Wait. Let me find a chalk board. LOL Sister Carol.

EEEEECCCCHHHHH.


Boy some peoples kids....

No ones my brother till they have Christ's BLOOD in them(communion) thru them(His Word) By Him(New Birth By the Spirit Person God)

my order of events may not be correct, please modify as directed BigC.

Se Ya on the other side.

Keep the Faith.



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That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Bloodbought, I don't understand what you mean here when you say "if the Lord would not permit them."

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God is not willing that any should perish.

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Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:

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The writer warned these Hebrew believers against going back to Judaism. How could that be considered “turning away from the living God” when Judaism worships the same God? This entire letter to the Hebrews focuses on the superiority of Jesus Christ over everything in Judaism because nothing in Judaism can provide ultimate salvation and eternal rest.

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Yes, these Hebrews were at a crossroads, the writer warned them that if the Lord would not permit them to go on to perfection in Christ, they would fall away and could not be renewed again to repentance.

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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The writer warned these Hebrew believers against going back to Judaism. How could that be considered “turning away from the living God” when Judaism worships the same God? This entire letter to the Hebrews focuses on the superiority of Jesus Christ over everything in Judaism because nothing in Judaism can provide ultimate salvation and eternal rest.

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Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Yes i could if did not walk in the spirit and continued in the flesh...yes its possible..

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You know how se defend Eternal Security, by the scripture, noman can pluck you out of His hand, no devil...BUT YOUR STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!

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Simple....Talking about leaving HIS [Jesus] Yahushua, does not mean Brother Daniel, nor myself, Brother Dale nor anyone else is contemplating leaving the Messiah..How ABSURD!

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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You know how se defend Eternal Security, by the scripture, noman can pluck you out of His hand, no devil...BUT YOUR STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!

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Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Well, barry, maybe you can reject Christ.

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Yes i could if did not walk in the spirit and continued in the flesh...yes its possible..

Now your starting to see my point, anyone who does not "endure" to the end can "fall away".

Charles Stanley's principal is that...If one came to your home and called you outside, and stated:

"Deny Yahushua [Jesus the Christ] right now or were going to chop off your head, Stanley's teaching is "even if you deny" your going to heaven..if youve previously ben born again..LIES Carol it lies!

You know the scripture, if you deny me before men, HE will deny you before the Father!

Simple....Talking about leaving HIS [Jesus] Yahushua, does not mean Brother Daniel, nor myself, Brother Dale nor anyone else is contemplating leaving the Messiah..How ABSURD!

Its a warning Carol, to all those who teach, and those that do not teach OSAS>>>>> Walk as HE walked, walk in the Spirit, walk not in the Flesh!

the bilbe warns you Mam!.....You that teach OSAS, are in grave error and can teach a FALSE SECURITY!

You know how se defend Eternal Security, by the scripture, noman can pluck you out of His hand, no devil...BUT YOUR STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!

Im not trying to offend, im trying to help you see the truth here in scripture...




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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Sister Carols post stated:

"But He doesnt leave us"

My question:But isnt it true that the scriptures show that we can leave Him?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end,

Sister Carol, if it is not possible for us to depart from the faith...........how then would you interpret the above verses?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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It doesn't say a person who claims to be...

It says a person who is TRULY born again.

How could the Holy Spirit of Christ reject Christ?

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Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged |