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Author Topic: Eternal Security
becauseHElives
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“It is Finished”

What was "finished?

The need for sinners to repent?

No indeed.

The need for turning to God from idols?

No indeed.

The need for mortifying my members which are upon earth?

No indeed.

The need for being sanctified wholly, in spirit, and soul, and body?

No indeed.

Christ died not to make my sorrow for, hatred of, and striving against sin, useless. Christ died not to absolve me from the full discharge of my responsibilities unto God. Christ died not so that I might go on retaining the friendship and fellowship of the world. How passing strange that any should think that He did. Yet the actions of many show that this is their idea.

"It is finished." What was "finished?"

The sacrificial types were accomplished, the prophecies, of His sufferings were fulfilled, the work given Him by the Father had been perfectly done, a sure foundation had been laid on which a righteous God could pardon the vilest transgressor of the law who threw down the weapons of his warfare against Him. Christ had now performed all that was necessary in order for the Holy Spirit to come and work in the hearts of His people; convincing them of their rebellion, slaying their enmity against God, and producing in them a loving and obedient heart.

O, dear reader, make no mistake on this point.

The "finished work of Christ" avails you nothing if your heart has never been broken through an agonizing consciousness of your sinfulness. The "finished work of Christ" avails you nothing unless you have been saved from the power and pollution of sin (Matthew 1:21). It avails you nothing if you still love the world (I John 2:15). It avails you nothing unless you are a "new creature" in Him (2 Cor .5:17). If you value your soul, search the Scriptures to see for yourself; take no man’s word for it.

excerpt from Arthur W. Pink

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Betty Louise
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Goodness me, WOWI did not know that Barry and BecauseHeLives were expert on the subject. They probably would not believe salvation is secured if Jesus came down here and told them in person.
I thought for sure my Bible said that Jesus said it was finished on the cross. [Confused]
You two guys are so caught up in the cult you belong to that you would not recognize the truth if it bite you on the nose.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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barrykind
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Carol states:

quote:
Betty

becauseHElives keeps hammering that same nail over and over. We've told him a hundred times that Eternal Security is not a license to sin.

The two extremes to avoid are legalism and license.

We cannot earn salvation with obedience and holy living; we cannot add anything to the cross of Christ.

But a true born again believer loves Jesus Christ. Loves Him and wants to please Him by obeying Him - His Word and His Holy Spirit.

We can tell that to becauseHElives another few hundred times, and he still won't hear us because he's stuck in a box and can't see anything beyond the nail in front of him, and can't hear anything but the pounding of his hammer.

Bummer.

Thats exactly how i feel about you, Betty, and Bill...[edit..i meant to include Carol also]

I feel as you perhaps do, you have ears and cannot hear, eyes and cannot see...

i pray for yall, as i hope you for me...
Pray about it, ask YHWH God to show you ask Him if your heart is hard, and Pleaseask HIM to give you a love of the truth!

Most of all we should pray that a root of bitterness not come into our hearts, for many shall be defiled....

[Prayer] [Bible] [Cross]

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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

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barrykind
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Becausehelives states:


quote:
I look at it like this. If you've ever been a tenant somewhere and had a lease, you know sometimes the top of the lease is in bold black ink and usually says something like: I (your name) hereby enters into a contractual agreement with (Realtor) to lease the building/apartment at (location) for a fee of $_____ per month.

Below these opening lines there is usually a list of 20 or more bullet points of fine print, listing the conditions of your tenancy. Such as:
*Loud music will not be played past 10:00pm or before 9:00am
*Animals are not allowed in this apartment complex
*Garbage will not be thrown from windows or placed in hallways
*Smoking is prohibited in hallways and lobby
*Drinking alcoholic beverages is prohibited in hallways and lobby
*Alteration of landscape is prohibited except by written consent from (Realtor)
*etc etc etc

It usually ends with something like
*Violation of these terms and conditions will be grounds for the termination of your lease agreement.

The OSAS crowd most of the time only looks at the top of the 'lease agreement' to salvation, and screams "Jesus made my payment, I have the right to live here no matter what!" Or in other words "I accepted Christ, and I'm saved no matter what!". Never....I mean NEVER do they read the terms and conditions of their 'tenancy'. I will even say, in my experience, most of them don't know the fine print even exists. For if they did, they would not believe in the heresy.

I would strongly urge you to reject this doctrine of devils; it leads to a path of destruction, and gives people every excuse in the book to be despicable, apathetic human beings.


The proof that having to emulate Jesus didn't end after the crucifixion and mid-acts dispensationalism is mostly incorrect, and the verses I am posting come from the apostles long after the crucifixion and even Paul himself.

Which kind of people would you rather have?

Which would you rather trust if you had to?

A Christian who believes you have to follow Christ, and obey His commandments, try to be perfect, overcome through Him, and live a holy life?

Or a 'Christian' who believes that they can be as sinful as they want, and it will never make a difference on their soul, everything is ok, don't have to try to BE or DO anything...don't have to give, or care, or have charity, or the fruits of the spirit, nothing.

I think there's no doubt about it, I would go with a REAL Christian any day.

please give close attention to the following scriptures.....

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

OSAS turns the grace of God into lasciviousness and says you can do anything you want, cause you can't lose your salvation.

1st John 3:15 says that "if you hate your 'brother' you're a murderer and no murderer hath eternal life"

Gal 5:19-21 covers adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, HATRED, variance, emulations, WRATH, STRIFE, seditions, heresies, drunkenness, envyings, murders, and revellings...and says such a person living after flesh and not the Spirit has NO inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1st Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1st Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Some people want to interpret this as Paul as saying that if he 'fails the test' he would merely be getting fewer rewards. Do we have scriptural support to prove that those who actually fail will indeed end up straggling into the kingdom? Hopefully this section will prove otherwise.

2nd Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.

Apparently, Paul and others were working to be accepted by God. Some people want to say that the acceptance in this verse only means "to be pleasing", but lets look at what other scriptures have to say about this...


Now John 15:6-10 says IF you keep his commandments you will abide in Him, if you don't, you will be cast forth as a withered branch and burned. But are you still considered one of His as a withered and burning branch?

Rom 8:9 tells us if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Matthew 12:50, Luke 8:21, John 8:31-32, Luke 6:35, James 2:5, 1st John 1:7, and 2:6 ALL put stipulations of DOING things in order to remain in Him as one of His. Titus 1:16 even tells us you can deny Him by your works, and Titus 2:11-14 tells us Christ wants a people who do good works.

Clearly the conclusion is that Jesus has specific requirements of us as Christians, and that we must meet these requirements to remain in Him, for if we don't, it won't merely be receiving fewer rewards in the kingdom, showing that 2 Cor 5:9 is literally talking about acceptance, not just getting fewer rewards, once again demolishing OSAS.

So you ask..."What about being saved by grace? Aren't we all just saved by grace, and not by our works, hence we can't do any works to lose our salvation?"

Well friends, that's a good question, and there is a little known verse that explains the whole "saved by grace" stuff that OSASers spew like there's no tomorrow.

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

As we can all see, this is the grace that saves, it teaches people to be righteous and godly, so if you're claiming to be saved by grace, and yet you're living like the heathen world, then I would seriously question your salvation.

Further support for this is found in Matt 10:33 and Luke 12:9 where Jesus said "if you deny me before man, I will deny you before the Father."
Then we find in Titus that a person can be a denier of God, by their very works.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in WORKS they DENY Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good WORK reprobate.

So now you ask "What about God's grace? Surely His grace can keep you saved."

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled.

The context of this is found in the following verses relating to Esau. The author explains the danger of immorality, and draws a parallel to Esau selling off his birthright for a single meal, and all of his desperate crying could not cause repentance and undo it.

The comparison is that falling out of grace into immorality is akin to Esau's mistake, it cannot be undone. Why warn with such an extreme example if it was not possible? Just another pointless threat?

Is the picture getting any clearer? Oh but I'm not done yet.

1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. (This proves that not only is your salvation conditional, but that it also relies on YOU.)

So now the OSAS crowd says "What about being sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit? Eph 4:30"

When a king put his seal upon something, it was an indication that it had his authority and approval, it was not a padlock, it was not a bank vault, it wasn't some kind of barricade. Furthermore, nothing in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation indicates that a seal is unbreakable. In fact, quite the opposite is shown in scriptures. There is a manmade seal and a heavenly seal, both are broken in the Bible...The seal on the tomb was broken when Jesus was resurrected, and the seal on the scroll in Revelation that John saw was also broken.

Many OSASers also leave out the beginning part of Eph 4:30 where it says to not grieve the Holy Spirit...they never stop to wonder what happens if they DO grieve the Spirit by which they are sealed by. Throughout this section I have shown what happens to those who spit in God's face, why would the same not be so for the Holy Spirit?

Now the OSASer resorts to "Well, I trust in the finished work of the cross for my salvation, and that's all I need to do!"

I'm going to bust your bubble on this one. The phrase "trusting in the finished work of the cross" does not exist in scriptures, nor does anything even resemble it. Search for it as you may, there is no such verse.

OSASer says Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "See, Jesus said He never knew them, He doesn't say He knew them once and now He doesn't. This proves they were never saved to begin with."
While the verse alone may be compelling for 'OSAS Lite', it's important to know the context of it. This is not a verse about eternal security, it's actually a verse about the emphasis of works. The important question to ask is WHY is Jesus telling them "I never knew you"? If we look just a few verses prior to this, you'll have the answer. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.. So what was the will of the Father if it wasn't just to prophecy and cast out devils? A few verses prior it says Mat 7:19-20 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. This ties perfectly together with being cast out in verse 23. They did not bear fruit, as many 'mighty' men of God who think they do so much for the Lord, with their evangelizing, and building churches from their thick wallets, have not bore any fruit of the Spirit. I've met a few of them, they can be vile people, and all the charities and mission trips won't mean much to God on their account.

Is there more proof for this? Yes, John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. It is and always has been Faith+Works neither one alone will do.

OSASer says 1Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."See, even if you've done nothing for the Lord, you are still saved.".

This is a lesser known OSAS verse, but it is sometimes used, and can be easily misleading due to the length and complexity of it. These verses start out in verse 11 with Paul saying to the church, that the only foundation we have is Christ, and (figuratively speaking of course) if you build gold, silver, and precious jewels, upon the foundation of Christ, you will receive a reward. But if you build wood, hay, and stubble, upon the foundation of Christ, it will be burned up by fire. Yet the person themself would be saved, and this is true, but there is a condition to this. Remember how the allegory started. Paul is addressing the body of believers telling them the only foundation we have is Christ. So tell me, what if somebody is not abiding in Christ, do they still have Christ?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

How does one abide in Christ?

1 John 2:3-4 We do know that we know him, IF we keep His commandments. If you say you abide in Him you ought to WALK in the same manner as He walked.
3:24 And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

What if you don't have the Spirit?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Looks pretty clear to me. So what are His commandments?

First and foremost, John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another as I have loved you, by THIS shall all men know you are my disciples, if ye love one another.

Further information as to what Jesus and God require of us can be found here, and we know it's not the old Torah, as explained here.

In desperation, the OSASer may throw out 1 Cor 5:5 and say "See, that guy's flesh was destroyed to save his spirit" To which I really have to ask "If there is eternal security, then why did he have to be destroyed in the first place? What danger was his spirit ever in?" The verse is counter-productive to OSAS.

1Peter 1:5 is also sometimes brought up because it says Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Some people would take the verse as meaning you have nothing to do with staying saved. At a first glance, this verse would be very destructive to a lot of my points, but it's really an issue of translation in King James English. Phrureo and phyllaso in the Greek are both translated sometimes as "kept" or "keep" in the Bible and their definitions mean to be guarded or protected, not withheld, retained, or prevented from something. The reason translators used "kept" and "keep" is because of the language at the time, and this can be illustrated by a 'keep' in medieval times being the guarded structure within a castle. It applies in not only 1Peter 1:5 but also in 2Thes 3:3 and Jude 1:24 among others that use phrureo or phylasso, as this is their only definition.

These and other verses were also spoken at the time to counter the dogmatic religious leaders of the day (pharisees), who had the personal power to dictate righteousness and damnation.

So what are we being guarded or protected (kept) from in the context of these verses if it's not preventing the loss of your salvation? We know 1Cor 10:13 says God will not allow you to be tempted beyond means of escape. Sure enough, the verse following 1Peter 1:5 goes right into the temptations and trials of this world. Similarly, the verses following 2Thes 3:3 go into obedience and staying on the straight and narrow, as do the verses immediately prior to Jude 1:24. I believe this settles the context of being kept by God as meaning temptations cannot overpower you, and not as a proof text of eternal security.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Very good Brother, but as water rolls off the back of a duck, so does the truth off the hearts of some believers.

It will truly be a sad day at the judgement, the great and terrible day...

Brother Clendenon once stated in a sermon i listenend to:

He had a dream and this man was in hell, and he kept picking up people by the back of the hair on thier head, and bro. Clendenon ask the Lord, what is that man doing? Bro. Clendenon stated the Lord told him, "the man is looking for the preacher that told him that lie!

Out of all the differences we may have over, doctrine, esp. eschatology, pre, mid, post, pan tribulation,et. el;

The OSAS doctrine as it is taught, esp. by the "wolves in sheeps clothing", such as Charles Stanley... I feel is the most horendous, devilish lie from hell ever perpetrated on the "church" ever!!!

[thumbsup2]

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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Betty [thumbsup2]

becauseHElives keeps hammering that same nail over and over. We've told him a hundred times that Eternal Security is not a license to sin.

The two extremes to avoid are legalism and license.

We cannot earn salvation with obedience and holy living; we cannot add anything to the cross of Christ.

But a true born again believer loves Jesus Christ. Loves Him and wants to please Him by obeying Him - His Word and His Holy Spirit.

We can tell that to becauseHElives another few hundred times, and he still won't hear us because he's stuck in a box and can't see anything beyond the nail in front of him, and can't hear anything but the pounding of his hammer.

Bummer.

Worse than Bummer. Its a great sadness and lamentation of Spirit.

For it is a subtle form of a False Whiteness.

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That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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Betty [thumbsup2]

becauseHElives keeps hammering that same nail over and over. We've told him a hundred times that Eternal Security is not a license to sin.

The two extremes to avoid are legalism and license.

We cannot earn salvation with obedience and holy living; we cannot add anything to the cross of Christ.

But a true born again believer loves Jesus Christ. Loves Him and wants to please Him by obeying Him - His Word and His Holy Spirit.

John 14
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

Galatians 5:13
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

We can tell that to becauseHElives another few hundred times, and he still won't hear us because he's stuck in a box and can't see anything beyond the nail in front of him, and can't hear anything but the pounding of his hammer.

Bummer.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Sister Carols post stated:

"But He doesnt leave us"

My question:But isnt it true that the scriptures show that we can leave Him?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end,

Sister Carol, if it is not possible for us to depart from the faith...........how then would you interpret the above verses?

With love in Christ, Daniel

One more time for U and berry...

Hebrews 10:23-29

Introduction

Hebrews chapter 10 is in many cases a battlefield for the believers. You choose your side and prepare to battle. Someone gives you your ammunition ahead of time so that you don’t have to think much on your own or consider all of the options.

As you are standing on your interpretation someone from the other side fires a shot and puts a hole in your doctrine. What to do now? Do you throw out everything? Probably not….many times it is God himself firing a shot to help you get Bible Doctrine instead of yours. In this study we will TRY to look at this openly.


If salvation can be lost then it was never based on a finished work. Jesus Christ said “It is Finished”. If your salvation is not finished then it is not based on the redeeming work of Christ.

The book of Hebrews was written by Paul and if he wrote in Hebrews that you could lose your salvation then he has brought a curse on himself (Galatians1:9), because he writes all through his epistles about eternal life.

The verses state that if a willful sin is committed by these people that there is no more sacrifice for sins. If this is a saved person then it sounds like the wilfull sins will not be paid for and will be accounted for at the Judgment Seat of Christ. No forgiveness is available between here and there.

Sounds like in verse 29 that this person was sanctified and now they are in danger of judgment.
before we get into the passage let us look at several introductory remarks.

Who Was It Written To

The title of the book says “The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews”. Hebrews1:1 talks about God speaking to the fathers by the prophets, who had fathers and prophets? Hebrews chapter 3 spends time dealing with the fact that Christ is better than Moses. Hebrews chapter 7 talks about the fact that Christ was of a better priestly line than the Levites. Chapters 8 and 9 of Hebrews deal with a better covenant. Hebrews chapter 11 deals with the faith of people who are all a part of the history of Israel.

from the evidence above, we would have to say that this book was written to the Jewish people. This does not mean that we should discard the book of Hebrews or any other Jewish epistles. The book is not written to us, but it is written for us (2 Timothy 3:16).

What Was the Purpose of the Letter?

The book of Hebrews contains the word “better” thirteen times. Christ is better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4), he brought in a better hope than the law (Hebrews 7:19), he was made surety of a better testament (Hebrews 7:22), he is the mediator of a better covenant (Hebrews 8:6), and he was a better sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23).

The book of Hebrews was written to the Jewish people in order to prove that Jesus Christ was “better” than Judaism.

The Time

In order to rightly divide the word of God, we must consider several things. When was the book written, who was it written to, and what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written? We have already discussed who the book was written to, but let us now look at when it was written.

The book of Hebrews was written nearly 30 years after the death of Christ. The temple was still standing and in operation (Hebrews 13:10-11). Jewish people were persecuted when they accepted Christ (Hebrews 10:32), for many Jews were still zealous over the law (Acts 21:20). Many Jewish people were still living under the banner of Judaism and to accept Christ was to reject Judaism.

The Passage

Now we will look at the question, “what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written?”

Verse 23

In verse 23, the Apostle Paul says, “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)”. First notice the word “profession”. A profession is not always true (Romans 1:22). Salvation is not based on our profession, but rather on a belief with the heart and confession of the mouth (Romans 10:9-10). Confession is agreeing with God, for example, when you confess your sins you are agreeing with God against your sins. The Apostle Paul warns the Hebrews not to waver from their profession.

Verses 24-25

These verses were written to exhort the Hebrews to meet together for worship and provoke one another to good works. The early church met often, and one reason was probably to strengthen and encourage each other in times of persecution.

Verses 26-27

Here we have one of the favorite verses of the Armenians, but remember the context of the book of Hebrews. Paul writes, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

Notice three things about this passage.

The sin was done on purpose (willfully). One point to make here is that if this is loss of salvation then we’ve all lost it. You say well I haven’t murdered anyone or committed adultery, but that is not what the verse says. The verse says willful sin. That is anything done knowingly that was unrighteous. Have you lied lately? Probably just a white lie….Have you not done something this week that you knew you should have done (James 4:17)
This person has received the knowledge of the truth.
If this proves that these people were saved then we have some problems.
Were all of the religious leaders saved? According to John 3:2 they knew that Jesus came from God. They had received the knowledge of the truth, but they didn’t all get saved.
The devils time and time again called Jesus the Son of God. Were they saved? No, but they sure did have knowledge of the truth.
So we see that knowledge of the truth in itself merits nothing, but faith in a person is what receives salvation.
After this sin there is no more sacrifice for sin. Keep in mind this is written to the Jewish people. What sin is it when done on purpose, allows no more sacrifice for sins?
Let us look at a scenario. A Jewish boy is born about the time of Christ’s death. He was raised to go to Jerusalem three times a year to appear before the Lord (Exodus 23:14,17; Deuteronomy 16:16). He went through all of the ceremonies and went to the schools of the Hebrews. He was taught to look for the coming of the Messiah, that He would come as a King to deliver His people. Then at about the age of 30, this young man hears a message preached that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that He died for the sins of the whole world. This young man learns more and more about the life of Christ, and begins to compare it with the law and the prophets. God opens his eyes to the fact that Christ was in fact the Messiah and that he must receive Christ by faith. Up to this point he like the apostle Paul has been zealous for God in the law, but now he has “received the knowledge of the truth”. If he receives Christ, then he will be persecuted greatly and his family will probably have a funeral for him and count him as dead. The fear of persecution drives him to “wilfully” reject Christ and return to Judaism. God says to this young man, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”. A spotless lamb or any other sacrifice will no longer hold off the wrath of God, the young man has seen God’s sacrifice. This young man will die and face judgment and fiery indignation, because he rejects God’s sacrifice.

Rejecting Christ is the only sin in this age that will send a man to hell.

Verses 28-29

In verses 28 and 29 Paul writes, “He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” Under the law, the punishment of sin against the commandments in many cases meant death. All it took was the witness of two or three.

According to Hebrews, God hath in these last days spoken unto us by His son. God has three witnesses (1 John 5:7-8). The “sorer punishment” will be poured out on those who “wilfully” reject the Son of God.

Notice in verse 28 that this person has “trodden under foot” the Son of God. When Moses told the children of Israel to put the blood on the side posts and lintel, he said nothing of putting the blood on the floor. In a sense those people were spared by going into the house through or under the blood. To be saved we must go through or under the blood, but this man has lowered the blood and has “trodden under foot”.

Notice next the phrase “wherewith he was sanctified”. The word “sanctified” means to be set apart in holiness. If the word “sanctified” simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture. Remember that the idea of Hebrews is that Jesus Christ is better. Some would say that the person sanctified is the same person who has counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, but look again. Jesus Christ’s blood sanctified himself. The blood set Him apart from bulls, goats, and all other blood either before or after.

Next notice the phrase “despite unto the Spirit of grace.” What this person has done has insulted the spirit of grace. We are saved by grace, and when someone turns from the free offer of salvation to Judaism or any other religion it is a disgrace to the spirit of grace.

Conclusion

In closing we will add evidence that Paul is not talking about the believers backsliding and losing their salvation. In verse 39 Paul says, “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Paul says I’m not talking about us because we have believed to the saving of our soul. These difficult verses when taken in context make more sense and prove once again that the book of Hebrews is about the fact that Jesus Christ is better.

(Forwarded from Ray, Andrew)

Please read prayerfully this time.

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That is all.....

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Betty Louise
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The OSAS crowd most of the time only looks at the top of the 'lease agreement' to salvation, and screams "Jesus made my payment, I have the right to live here no matter what!" Or in other words "I accepted Christ, and I'm saved no matter what!". Never....I mean NEVER do they read the terms and conditions of their 'tenancy'. I will even say, in my experience, most of them don't know the fine print even exists. For if they did, they would not believe in the heresy
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Wow you must have met alot of people. Living in three states and attending 7 Churches who believe in OSAS, I never met ONE who said salvation was a license to sin. You must live in a sinful State.
Mine you I only lived in Texas, Montana and Washington State so maybe we took salvation more seriously then your state.
Eternal Security is not a license to sin but the eternal security that Jesus paid for my sins and I can rest in His salvation and not what I can or cannot accomplish.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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TB125
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This is a good statement. I think that it clearly stresses the importance of obedience in the Christians life of faith. Thanks.

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Bob

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becauseHElives
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. I look at it like this. If you've ever been a tenant somewhere and had a lease, you know sometimes the top of the lease is in bold black ink and usually says something like: I (your name) hereby enters into a contractual agreement with (Realtor) to lease the building/apartment at (location) for a fee of $_____ per month.

Below these opening lines there is usually a list of 20 or more bullet points of fine print, listing the conditions of your tenancy. Such as:
*Loud music will not be played past 10:00pm or before 9:00am
*Animals are not allowed in this apartment complex
*Garbage will not be thrown from windows or placed in hallways
*Smoking is prohibited in hallways and lobby
*Drinking alcoholic beverages is prohibited in hallways and lobby
*Alteration of landscape is prohibited except by written consent from (Realtor)
*etc etc etc

It usually ends with something like
*Violation of these terms and conditions will be grounds for the termination of your lease agreement.

The OSAS crowd most of the time only looks at the top of the 'lease agreement' to salvation, and screams "Jesus made my payment, I have the right to live here no matter what!" Or in other words "I accepted Christ, and I'm saved no matter what!". Never....I mean NEVER do they read the terms and conditions of their 'tenancy'. I will even say, in my experience, most of them don't know the fine print even exists. For if they did, they would not believe in the heresy.

I would strongly urge you to reject this doctrine of devils; it leads to a path of destruction, and gives people every excuse in the book to be despicable, apathetic human beings.


The proof that having to emulate Jesus didn't end after the crucifixion and mid-acts dispensationalism is mostly incorrect, and the verses I am posting come from the apostles long after the crucifixion and even Paul himself.

Which kind of people would you rather have?

Which would you rather trust if you had to?

A Christian who believes you have to follow Christ, and obey His commandments, try to be perfect, overcome through Him, and live a holy life?

Or a 'Christian' who believes that they can be as sinful as they want, and it will never make a difference on their soul, everything is ok, don't have to try to BE or DO anything...don't have to give, or care, or have charity, or the fruits of the spirit, nothing.

I think there's no doubt about it, I would go with a REAL Christian any day.

please give close attention to the following scriptures.....

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

OSAS turns the grace of God into lasciviousness and says you can do anything you want, cause you can't lose your salvation.

1st John 3:15 says that "if you hate your 'brother' you're a murderer and no murderer hath eternal life"

Gal 5:19-21 covers adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, HATRED, variance, emulations, WRATH, STRIFE, seditions, heresies, drunkenness, envyings, murders, and revellings...and says such a person living after flesh and not the Spirit has NO inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1st Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1st Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Some people want to interpret this as Paul as saying that if he 'fails the test' he would merely be getting fewer rewards. Do we have scriptural support to prove that those who actually fail will indeed end up straggling into the kingdom? Hopefully this section will prove otherwise.

2nd Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.

Apparently, Paul and others were working to be accepted by God. Some people want to say that the acceptance in this verse only means "to be pleasing", but lets look at what other scriptures have to say about this...


Now John 15:6-10 says IF you keep his commandments you will abide in Him, if you don't, you will be cast forth as a withered branch and burned. But are you still considered one of His as a withered and burning branch?

Rom 8:9 tells us if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Matthew 12:50, Luke 8:21, John 8:31-32, Luke 6:35, James 2:5, 1st John 1:7, and 2:6 ALL put stipulations of DOING things in order to remain in Him as one of His. Titus 1:16 even tells us you can deny Him by your works, and Titus 2:11-14 tells us Christ wants a people who do good works.

Clearly the conclusion is that Jesus has specific requirements of us as Christians, and that we must meet these requirements to remain in Him, for if we don't, it won't merely be receiving fewer rewards in the kingdom, showing that 2 Cor 5:9 is literally talking about acceptance, not just getting fewer rewards, once again demolishing OSAS.

So you ask..."What about being saved by grace? Aren't we all just saved by grace, and not by our works, hence we can't do any works to lose our salvation?"

Well friends, that's a good question, and there is a little known verse that explains the whole "saved by grace" stuff that OSASers spew like there's no tomorrow.

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

As we can all see, this is the grace that saves, it teaches people to be righteous and godly, so if you're claiming to be saved by grace, and yet you're living like the heathen world, then I would seriously question your salvation.

Further support for this is found in Matt 10:33 and Luke 12:9 where Jesus said "if you deny me before man, I will deny you before the Father."
Then we find in Titus that a person can be a denier of God, by their very works.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in WORKS they DENY Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good WORK reprobate.

So now you ask "What about God's grace? Surely His grace can keep you saved."

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled.

The context of this is found in the following verses relating to Esau. The author explains the danger of immorality, and draws a parallel to Esau selling off his birthright for a single meal, and all of his desperate crying could not cause repentance and undo it.

The comparison is that falling out of grace into immorality is akin to Esau's mistake, it cannot be undone. Why warn with such an extreme example if it was not possible? Just another pointless threat?

Is the picture getting any clearer? Oh but I'm not done yet.

1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. (This proves that not only is your salvation conditional, but that it also relies on YOU.)

So now the OSAS crowd says "What about being sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit? Eph 4:30"

When a king put his seal upon something, it was an indication that it had his authority and approval, it was not a padlock, it was not a bank vault, it wasn't some kind of barricade. Furthermore, nothing in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation indicates that a seal is unbreakable. In fact, quite the opposite is shown in scriptures. There is a manmade seal and a heavenly seal, both are broken in the Bible...The seal on the tomb was broken when Jesus was resurrected, and the seal on the scroll in Revelation that John saw was also broken.

Many OSASers also leave out the beginning part of Eph 4:30 where it says to not grieve the Holy Spirit...they never stop to wonder what happens if they DO grieve the Spirit by which they are sealed by. Throughout this section I have shown what happens to those who spit in God's face, why would the same not be so for the Holy Spirit?

Now the OSASer resorts to "Well, I trust in the finished work of the cross for my salvation, and that's all I need to do!"

I'm going to bust your bubble on this one. The phrase "trusting in the finished work of the cross" does not exist in scriptures, nor does anything even resemble it. Search for it as you may, there is no such verse.

OSASer says Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "See, Jesus said He never knew them, He doesn't say He knew them once and now He doesn't. This proves they were never saved to begin with."
While the verse alone may be compelling for 'OSAS Lite', it's important to know the context of it. This is not a verse about eternal security, it's actually a verse about the emphasis of works. The important question to ask is WHY is Jesus telling them "I never knew you"? If we look just a few verses prior to this, you'll have the answer. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.. So what was the will of the Father if it wasn't just to prophecy and cast out devils? A few verses prior it says Mat 7:19-20 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. This ties perfectly together with being cast out in verse 23. They did not bear fruit, as many 'mighty' men of God who think they do so much for the Lord, with their evangelizing, and building churches from their thick wallets, have not bore any fruit of the Spirit. I've met a few of them, they can be vile people, and all the charities and mission trips won't mean much to God on their account.

Is there more proof for this? Yes, John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. It is and always has been Faith+Works neither one alone will do.

OSASer says 1Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."See, even if you've done nothing for the Lord, you are still saved.".

This is a lesser known OSAS verse, but it is sometimes used, and can be easily misleading due to the length and complexity of it. These verses start out in verse 11 with Paul saying to the church, that the only foundation we have is Christ, and (figuratively speaking of course) if you build gold, silver, and precious jewels, upon the foundation of Christ, you will receive a reward. But if you build wood, hay, and stubble, upon the foundation of Christ, it will be burned up by fire. Yet the person themself would be saved, and this is true, but there is a condition to this. Remember how the allegory started. Paul is addressing the body of believers telling them the only foundation we have is Christ. So tell me, what if somebody is not abiding in Christ, do they still have Christ?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

How does one abide in Christ?

1 John 2:3-4 We do know that we know him, IF we keep His commandments. If you say you abide in Him you ought to WALK in the same manner as He walked.
3:24 And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

What if you don't have the Spirit?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Looks pretty clear to me. So what are His commandments?

First and foremost, John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another as I have loved you, by THIS shall all men know you are my disciples, if ye love one another.

Further information as to what Jesus and God require of us can be found here, and we know it's not the old Torah, as explained here.

In desperation, the OSASer may throw out 1 Cor 5:5 and say "See, that guy's flesh was destroyed to save his spirit" To which I really have to ask "If there is eternal security, then why did he have to be destroyed in the first place? What danger was his spirit ever in?" The verse is counter-productive to OSAS.

1Peter 1:5 is also sometimes brought up because it says Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Some people would take the verse as meaning you have nothing to do with staying saved. At a first glance, this verse would be very destructive to a lot of my points, but it's really an issue of translation in King James English. Phrureo and phyllaso in the Greek are both translated sometimes as "kept" or "keep" in the Bible and their definitions mean to be guarded or protected, not withheld, retained, or prevented from something. The reason translators used "kept" and "keep" is because of the language at the time, and this can be illustrated by a 'keep' in medieval times being the guarded structure within a castle. It applies in not only 1Peter 1:5 but also in 2Thes 3:3 and Jude 1:24 among others that use phrureo or phylasso, as this is their only definition.

These and other verses were also spoken at the time to counter the dogmatic religious leaders of the day (pharisees), who had the personal power to dictate righteousness and damnation.

So what are we being guarded or protected (kept) from in the context of these verses if it's not preventing the loss of your salvation? We know 1Cor 10:13 says God will not allow you to be tempted beyond means of escape. Sure enough, the verse following 1Peter 1:5 goes right into the temptations and trials of this world. Similarly, the verses following 2Thes 3:3 go into obedience and staying on the straight and narrow, as do the verses immediately prior to Jude 1:24. I believe this settles the context of being kept by God as meaning temptations cannot overpower you, and not as a proof text of eternal security.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
you are still avoiding the fact that the sin in question is only forgiven in response to and subject to confessing that sin...

and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness...

If we have been cleansed from all unrighteousness, then do we WANT to sin? Think about it. Cleansed from all unrighteousness. I'll give you a hint...

NO

So if that person does sin, because none of us is perfect, he's going to feel terrible. Defiled. Of course he will confess to God and ask not only to be forgiven, but also to be strengthened so he will not make that mistake again.

YES?

Otherwise he will be chastised until he does repent.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
you are still avoiding the fact that the sin in question is only forgiven in response to and subject to confessing that sin...

Looks like you are being taken in your own craftiness again.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

What if certain parts of my flea-shin vessel fail to where I could not work Grace as you say?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

VIVA LA RAPTURE!


[rapture]

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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you are still avoiding the fact that the sin in question is only forgiven in response to and subject to confessing that sin...

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
there is a very clear condition on Eternal Life.... if you confess your sin .....if, if, if, if, if, if.....he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

You're the one disregarding scripture.

Yes there is a condition to Eternal Life. We must be born again.

But when did I ever say we don't need to confess our sins?

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becauseHElives
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Carol I can not believe your total disregard for the context of 1st John......

1 John 1

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


there is a very clear condition on Eternal Life.... if you confess your sin .....if, if, if, if, if, if.....he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


verse 2 tell us clearly what eternal life is.....it is Yahshua....

Yahweh does not remove our free will when anyone except His Grace, a believer still has choices to make.....

the if's in that small amount of scripture is overwhelming and you just totally disregard it...

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Carol,
The bible uses the words "born again" and the bible uses the words "falling away/apostacy. Would you be willing to look up both topics and post what you find on both of them.

Once again, my postion on this subject is that if it were not possible to "fall away" or "defect from the faith" that God makes us love Him vs. giving us the freedom to express our love towards Him in return for His love towards us.

With love in Christ, Daniel

"For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live unto God. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me ; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." (Galatians 2:19-20).

You can look up those topics if you want to. IMHO it is more important to understand that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ, and He lives in us. To say we are free to defect from the faith, to turn away from Him, is like saying we are free to eat decomposed garbage. Who would want to?

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Carol Swenson
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God knew everything we would ever do before we were even born!

We need an advocate in Heaven, because Satan accuses us before God day and night (Rev. 12:10). Satan would like to put a mark against the Christian when he sins. If he could do this, every Christian would be barred from Heaven, because none is perfect. But, thank God, the Lord Jesus Christ is the author of Eternal Salvation. He not only died upon the cross to save us, but He lives as our Advocate in Heaven to intercede on our behalf; therefore, "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?" (Rom. 8: 33). "If any man sin, we have an Advocate." Notice, it does not say if any man confesses his sin we have an Advocate but, "If any man sin." The moment a Christian sins Christ his Advocate pleads his cause, so that no charge can be laid against him in Heaven. Sin, however, does affect his fellowship with God the Father, (but not his relationship as a child of God), and must be confessed. Otherwise he will be chastised.

quote:
sin committed after one comes to Yahshua are cleansed on the condition that those who continue in Grace walk in continually repentance!


Agreed. We are washed completely, but we need to wash our feet often. (John 13)

quote:
unconfessed sin will separate you from the love of Yahweh.


NOTHING can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

But unconfessed sin will keep us from fellowship with God.

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becauseHElives
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I Jn 1:5-1:7 "IF" we sin I Jn 2:1 ....

To need an "Advocate" is proof I Jn 2:1 that our sins were not "paid" for Past, Present, and Future.

If that were so, we would not need an Advocate with the Father...

this one fact makes Eternal Security teaching a lie!

sin committed after one comes to Yahshua are cleansed on the condition that those who continue in Grace walk in continually repentance!

unconfessed sin will separate you from the love of Yahweh.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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oneinchrist
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Hi Carol,
The bible uses the words "born again" and the bible uses the words "falling away/apostacy. Would you be willing to look up both topics and post what you find on both of them.

Once again, my postion on this subject is that if it were not possible to "fall away" or "defect from the faith" that God makes us love Him vs. giving us the freedom to express our love towards Him in return for His love towards us.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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oneinChrist

quote:
These are biblical concepts which some people (for whatever reasons) just flat out reject.


What "some people (for whatever reasons) just flat out reject" is the belief that those who left Christ were actually born again. He knows who will truly believe and who will not, and He does not save pretenders. They don't lose their salvation - they never had it to begin with.

John 6:61-69 (NLT)

Jesus was aware that his disciples were complaining, so he said to them, “Does this offend you? Then what will you think if you see the Son of Man ascend to heaven again? The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.) Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”

At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him. Then Jesus turned to the Twelve and asked, “Are you also going to leave?”

Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. We believe, and we know you are the Holy One of God.”

Disciples are students, not necessarily believers. A lot of people who go to church are disciples, but they don't truly believe. True believers know Him, not just about Him.

Here is a biblical concept which some people (for whatever reason) just flat out reject:

“He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.” (Hebrews 7:25)

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Brother B,
I am not offended when I see the word "we" in other peoples posts. If I dont agree with what comes after the "we"........then I might post a rebuttal. Would you please post your rebuttal. I do not think you would have been so offended by the "we" unless there was something else that you disagreed with???or do you just get offended at all the "we's" on everyones posts....or just my "we's" only??

With love in Christ, Daniel

Not U me.

Military training leftovers.

One was never aloud to included a "we" unless on the same mission.

U along with 2 others have voiced your opinion on my training by Christ with my call/orders from above.

--------------------
That is all.....

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oneinchrist
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Brother B,
I am not offended when I see the word "we" in other peoples posts. If I dont agree with what comes after the "we"........then I might post a rebuttal. Would you please post your rebuttal. I do not think you would have been so offended by the "we" unless there was something else that you disagreed with???or do you just get offended at all the "we's" on everyones posts....or just my "we's" only??

With love in Christ, Daniel

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oneinchrist
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Hi Brother Bloodbought,

You said:
"Why so many think they can repent and accept Christ today and receive eternal life and walk away from His salvation tomorrow I don’t know."

In the bible we see the term/sayings "falling away", "departing from the living God", "apostacy". I do not see the saying "walk away", although Jesus does use the words "go away" when He says to His disciples........"Do you also want to go away?" in John 6:67.

Vines Concise Dictionary
Fall away: In 2 Thess. 2:3 "the falling away" signifies apostacy from the faith.

Wycliffe Bible Dictionary
Apostacy: "a falling away or defection from the faith"

These are biblical concepts which some people (for whatever reasons) just flat out reject.

You said:
"Salvation is not offered on the basis of what we do, or fail to do, because it’s not of works. Salvation is offered on the basis of what Christ has done on the cross."

I think most people would agree with you here.

You said:
"Instead we should focus on how vile we are and realise our hopeless condition before God and realise that apart from His mercy we are headed for hell fire."

I do not agree that we(Christians) should be focusing on how vile we are..........I believe that we should be focusing on how Jesus has the power to change us and make us fit to come into Gods presence. Not to say that we are not vile before we come to Jesus.......but that....our present day focus, in Christ, is better off concentrated on our transformation.

You said:
"The next time we sin, is He going to retrieve our sins again and put them back to our account and set us back on the broad road? No, our sins are blotted out by the application of the blood, never to be remembered against us any more."

The Bible says "IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is not questioning the power of the blood. It is Gods condition on our ability to gain access to the saving power of the blood.
In Revelation, Jesus gives warnings to the seven churches and He calls them to repent of specific sins. We do not say that they were already forgiven and cleansed by the blood even before they repented. It wouldnt be any different for us.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Betty Louise
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Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Bloodbrought,

Reading your post I thought of these verses. If as Parents, our children disappoint us we do not say that they are no longer our children. We do not stop loving them. When we become God's children, he does not forget we are His children because we sin. Sin has consequences. We reap what we sow and sometimes it is hard sowing those crops, but we are still the children of God.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Bloodbought
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Why so many think they can repent and accept Christ today and receive eternal life and walk away from His salvation tomorrow I don’t know. Salvation is not offered on the basis of what we do, or fail to do, because it’s not of works. Salvation is offered on the basis of what Christ has done on the cross. He said, “It is finished.” There is nothing more to be done. We don’t need to focus on how good we can be, because no matter how good we try to be, we are never good enough. Instead we should focus on how vile we are and realise our hopeless condition before God and realise that apart from His mercy we are headed for hell fire. We must accept His mercy and by accepting Christ, we are accepting His mercy. When we accept His mercy our sins past present and future are cast into the sea of His forgetfulness.

The next time we sin, is He going to retrieve our sins again and put them back to our account and set us back on the broad road? No, our sins are blotted out by the application of the blood, never to be remembered against us any more. Our sins have no more dominion over us, because they are gone forever. When we fail, the blood cleanses and keeps on cleansing, and Christ is seated at the Father’s right hand interceding on our behalf, until He presents us faultless before His throne. He is a faithful High Priest that we can depend on.

God bless.

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Carol Swenson
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The sinking Peter was not saved by holding on, but our Lord reached out and caught him.

O you of little faith, why did you doubt? (Matt. 14:29-31).

Great read here:

Is my salvation in Christ secure, or can I lose my salvation?

http://www.backtothebible.org/index.php/Q-Is-my-salvation-in-Christ-secure-or-can-I-lose-my-salvation.html

Speaking of Peter...

quote:
"Deny Yahushua [Jesus the Christ] right now or were going to chop off your head, Stanley's teaching is "even if you deny" your going to heaven..if youve previously ben born again..LIES Carol it lies!


Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." (Matthew 26:34)

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail ; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers." (Luke 22:31-32)

He knew Peter would fail. He also knew that failure was not Peter's whole story.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Betty,
Whether someone has backslidden or fallen away I do not know, and I will not pretend to be God...........but the thing that I do know is that whether or not someone has backslidden or fallen away, he/she can once again be restored to God through repentance and Gods forgiveness.

I am not here trying to cause doubt and fear. I think that our motive should be to come alongside the sinning brother/sister and humbly try and encourage them to be restored to fellowship with God whether they are fallen away or backslidden. This is best done in a spirit of love and a gentle reminder of Gods past track record of goodness in their life.
Thank you for the fellowship Betty. I like your sincerity and I do believe you love the Lord. I do not want to be one to come and make anyone doubt their relationship with God. I would rather be here to encourage more confidence in God and more dependence on His strength.
I do believe that a person can fall away........but only by a continuous and purposeful neglect of Gods warning after warning. Once again, I think the knowledge that one can fall away is useless without a heart desire to see such a one restored to God.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Luv Ya Brother.

But do u ever listen 2 yourself?

"I think" "I think" "I think "

Dude Dont U no?

--------------------
That is all.....

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Don't call me Sister Carol. It makes me sound like a nun.


Wait. Let me find a chalk board. LOL Sister Carol.

EEEEECCCCHHHHH.


Boy some peoples kids....

No ones my brother till they have Christ's BLOOD in them(communion) thru them(His Word) By Him(New Birth By the Spirit Person God)

my order of events may not be correct, please modify as directed BigC.

Se Ya on the other side.

Keep the Faith.

[rapture]

--------------------
That is all.....

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oneinchrist
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Hi again Betty,
Whether someone has backslidden or fallen away I do not know, and I will not pretend to be God...........but the thing that I do know is that whether or not someone has backslidden or fallen away, he/she can once again be restored to God through repentance and Gods forgiveness.

I am not here trying to cause doubt and fear. I think that our motive should be to come alongside the sinning brother/sister and humbly try and encourage them to be restored to fellowship with God whether they are fallen away or backslidden. This is best done in a spirit of love and a gentle reminder of Gods past track record of goodness in their life.
Thank you for the fellowship Betty. I like your sincerity and I do believe you love the Lord. I do not want to be one to come and make anyone doubt their relationship with God. I would rather be here to encourage more confidence in God and more dependence on His strength.
I do believe that a person can fall away........but only by a continuous and purposeful neglect of Gods warning after warning. Once again, I think the knowledge that one can fall away is useless without a heart desire to see such a one restored to God.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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barrykind
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o no Carol i wasnt yelling, making infaces..sorry

[hug]

--------------------
The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

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Betty Louise
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Daniel,

Even in the circumstances you described, I do not believe that person has lost his salvation. I believe that God will discipline that person until he repents. I believe that there will be tears in Heaven when we stand before God and are judged for our sins that are not repented of. A smart Christian ask for forgiveness ever day because they do not want to be standing before God in such a state. Your friend is not getting away with his sins. You probably do not know how he is suffering personally for his refusal to admit his sin and seek for forgiveness.

My niece moved in with a non Christian without marriage and had a baby. It took two years of God moving in their lives and now her husband is saved and they got married because God convicted them of their sins. We do not always see the work God is doing in others.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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oneinchrist
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Hello again Betty,
In your response to my post you said:
"Going by your beliefs, a Christian could commit a sin and not realize it get killed in accident and go to hell".

You have certainly misunderstood my post. I did not make reference to a Christian who committed sin WITHOUT REALIZING IT. I made reference to a Christian who KNOWINGLY sinned against God and KNOWINGLY refused to repent.

Do you believe that God forgives a man who knows his sin and refuses to repent?

By the way, just as a sidenote......I know a man(who was at one time in the past a converted Christian) who is in this circumstance. He has left his wife and gone into an adulterous relationship with a woman half his age. He is with her to this day living in fornication. He has so lifted up in pride that he refuses to repent. Should we assume that he is already forgiven too?, assuming that he was a genuine conversion way back when.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Bloodbought
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quote:
Bloodbought, I don't understand what you mean here when you say "if the Lord would not permit them."

Hebrews 6 (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Read the two bolded parts together.

God is sovereign. He has mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom he will He hardeneth.

quote:
God is not willing that any should perish.

He is not willing that any of His elect should perish. All of the others will perish because of their rebellion.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
The writer warned these Hebrew believers against going back to Judaism. How could that be considered “turning away from the living God” when Judaism worships the same God? This entire letter to the Hebrews focuses on the superiority of Jesus Christ over everything in Judaism because nothing in Judaism can provide ultimate salvation and eternal rest.
Yes, these Hebrews were at a crossroads, the writer warned them that if the Lord would not permit them to go on to perfection in Christ, they would fall away and could not be renewed again to repentance.
Bloodbought, I don't understand what you mean here when you say "if the Lord would not permit them." God is not willing that any should perish.
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Betty Louise
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Daniel,

Going by your beliefs, a Christian could commit a sin and not realize it get killed in accident and go to hell.
God will discipline a Christian who has unrepented sin but God does not kick His children out of His family.

betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Bloodbought
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quote:
The writer warned these Hebrew believers against going back to Judaism. How could that be considered “turning away from the living God” when Judaism worships the same God? This entire letter to the Hebrews focuses on the superiority of Jesus Christ over everything in Judaism because nothing in Judaism can provide ultimate salvation and eternal rest.
Yes, these Hebrews were at a crossroads, the writer warned them that if the Lord would not permit them to go on to perfection in Christ, they would fall away and could not be renewed again to repentance.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Betty,
You said:
"This said, you may stray from God, but you will not give up your salvation"

Do you go as far as to say that we can willfully commit sin(that we know is clearly against Gods will) and willfully refuse to confess it/repent of it............and still be forgiven for the same?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Betty Louise
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You walk in the Spirit because at the moment you get saved, the Holy Spirit comes to live in your heart. This said, you may stray from God, but you will not give up your salvation.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Carol Swenson
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oninchrist

As you read this you will see that the author of Hebrews was speaking to a congregation.

Hebrews 3:12 (NASB)
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

He called the group brethren, and warns that among them there may be someone who is not a true believer.

The writer warned these Hebrew believers against going back to Judaism. This entire letter to the Hebrews focuses on the superiority of Jesus Christ over everything in Judaism because nothing in Judaism can provide ultimate salvation and eternal rest.

barrykind,

quote:
Yes i could if did not walk in the spirit and continued in the flesh...yes its possible..


WHY do you walk in the Spirit barrykind?

quote:
You know how se defend Eternal Security, by the scripture, noman can pluck you out of His hand, no devil...BUT YOUR STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!
You want to yell? I can yell too. YOU ARE NOT SAVED BY YOUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, BUT BY HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HIS GRACE!!!

Matthew 6:33 does NOT say, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and OUR righteousness..." Rather, the Bible says ... seek HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. We are to seek Jesus' righteousness. 2nd Corinthians 5:21 states, "For he (God the Father) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." This speaks of Christ's imputed righteousness (i.e., our sins are placed upon Christ's record, and His righteousness is placed upon our record). We are JUSTIFIED in the eyes of God. The blood of Jesus takes our sins away forever (1st Peter 1:18,19). This is true righteousness, and it is found ONLY in Christ Jesus. We are commanded to seek HIS righteousness if we want to obtain the Kingdom of God. "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption" (1st Corinthians 1:30).

Grace is UNDESERVED pardon.

Am I saying we can sin like crazy? NO. Our Lord said He will DISCIPLINE those He loves. Do you doubt Him? I don't.

For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives. (Hebrews 12:6).

Does a born again Christian WANT to sin like crazy? NO. He is a new creation in Christ. But he can be tempted and vexed by demons, and subjected to Satan's fiery darts.

Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. (Ephesians 6:11)

quote:
Simple....Talking about leaving HIS [Jesus] Yahushua, does not mean Brother Daniel, nor myself, Brother Dale nor anyone else is contemplating leaving the Messiah..How ABSURD!


You think it's absurd if I wonder why believers talk about rejecting Christ and leaving Him? I think it's absurd that believers would even think such things, let alone talk about them, when their hearts should be filled with the love of Christ and the fruit of the Holy Spirit. If you think it's absurd to ask you that, then you should realize it's absurd for you to suggest it about others as well.

You are saved by HIS righteousness and HIS grace. He is the One who disciplines you. He is the One who sanctifies you. He is the One who works good works through you. He is the author and finisher of your faith. He is the Savior. NOT YOU.

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Bloodbought
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quote:
You know how se defend Eternal Security, by the scripture, noman can pluck you out of His hand, no devil...BUT YOUR STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!

If you are truly saved nothing can separate you from the love of God, not even your “STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!”
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Betty Louise
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So you are saying that God is a liar. If He were to tell a person who had been saved that He never knew them, God would be a liar.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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barrykind
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Carol states:

quote:
Well, barry, maybe you can reject Christ.


Yes i could if did not walk in the spirit and continued in the flesh...yes its possible..

Now your starting to see my point, anyone who does not "endure" to the end can "fall away".

Charles Stanley's principal is that...If one came to your home and called you outside, and stated:

"Deny Yahushua [Jesus the Christ] right now or were going to chop off your head, Stanley's teaching is "even if you deny" your going to heaven..if youve previously ben born again..LIES Carol it lies!

You know the scripture, if you deny me before men, HE will deny you before the Father!

Simple....Talking about leaving HIS [Jesus] Yahushua, does not mean Brother Daniel, nor myself, Brother Dale nor anyone else is contemplating leaving the Messiah..How ABSURD!

Its a warning Carol, to all those who teach, and those that do not teach OSAS>>>>> Walk as HE walked, walk in the Spirit, walk not in the Flesh!

the bilbe warns you Mam!.....You that teach OSAS, are in grave error and can teach a FALSE SECURITY!

You know how se defend Eternal Security, by the scripture, noman can pluck you out of His hand, no devil...BUT YOUR STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!

Im not trying to offend, im trying to help you see the truth here in scripture...


[hug]

--------------------
The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

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oneinchrist
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Hello again Carol,
I have told you in an earlier post that I have no plans to leave the faith.

Your answer to my question:
"True believers are willing to suffer for Christ and they hold firmly to their convictions and their confession of faith."

Now I would like to go back to Hebrews 3 and see if I can make reasonable application with your answer..............

First of all,I am having a difficult time understanding why the author of Hebrews would use the word BRETHREN in verse 12 if it he is not assumably speaking with true believers(real converts).

12 Beware, BRETHREN, lest there be in you.....

If your(not yours yours, but the author of your post) above statement is 100% true, why would the author of Hebrews waste his time warning the BRETHREN (true believers) of rebelling against God and the deceitfullness of sin?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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Don't call me Sister Carol. It makes me sound like a nun.

oneinChrist, do you want to leave Him?

quote:
Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.

Does an evil heart of unbelief sound like a true believer to you?

All this talk of rejecting Him and leaving Him is making me wonder if He is really in the hearts of people who say such things. I mean, if your heart is truly full of Christ, not rules and fears and warnings, but Christ, then you would not say a true believer could ever reject Him or leave Him. You would know it isn't possible.

Hebrews 3

When a person has an erring heart and a disbelieving heart, the result will also be a hard heart. This is a heart that is insensitive to the Word and work of God. So hard was the heart of Israel that the people even wanted to return to Egypt! Imagine wanting to exchange their freedom under God for slavery in Egypt! Of course, all this history spoke to the hearts of the readers of this letter [Hebrews] because they were in danger of “going back” themselves.

God’s judgment fell on Israel in the wilderness at Kadesh Barnea. That entire generation was condemned to die, and only the new generation would enter the land. God said, “They shall not enter into My rest” (Heb. 3:11). But what message does this bring to a believer today? No believer today, Jew or Gentile, could go back into the Mosaic legal system since the temple is gone and there is no priesthood.

But every believer is tempted to give up his confession of Christ and go back into the world system’s life of compromise and bondage. This is especially true during times of persecution and suffering. The fires of persecution have always purified the church because suffering separates true believers from the counterfeit. True believers are willing to suffer for Christ and they hold firmly to their convictions and their confession of faith (see Heb. 3:6, 14). We are not saved by holding to our confession. The fact that we hold to our confession is proof that we are God’s true children.

(Wiersbe)

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Sister Carols post stated:

"But He doesnt leave us"

My question:But isnt it true that the scriptures show that we can leave Him?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end,

Sister Carol, if it is not possible for us to depart from the faith...........how then would you interpret the above verses?

With love in Christ, Daniel

One more time for U and berry...

Hebrews 10:23-29

Introduction

Hebrews chapter 10 is in many cases a battlefield for the believers. You choose your side and prepare to battle. Someone gives you your ammunition ahead of time so that you don’t have to think much on your own or consider all of the options.

As you are standing on your interpretation someone from the other side fires a shot and puts a hole in your doctrine. What to do now? Do you throw out everything? Probably not….many times it is God himself firing a shot to help you get Bible Doctrine instead of yours. In this study we will TRY to look at this openly.


If salvation can be lost then it was never based on a finished work. Jesus Christ said “It is Finished”. If your salvation is not finished then it is not based on the redeeming work of Christ.

The book of Hebrews was written by Paul and if he wrote in Hebrews that you could lose your salvation then he has brought a curse on himself (Galatians1:9), because he writes all through his epistles about eternal life.

The verses state that if a willful sin is committed by these people that there is no more sacrifice for sins. If this is a saved person then it sounds like the wilfull sins will not be paid for and will be accounted for at the Judgment Seat of Christ. No forgiveness is available between here and there.

Sounds like in verse 29 that this person was sanctified and now they are in danger of judgment.
before we get into the passage let us look at several introductory remarks.

Who Was It Written To

The title of the book says “The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews”. Hebrews1:1 talks about God speaking to the fathers by the prophets, who had fathers and prophets? Hebrews chapter 3 spends time dealing with the fact that Christ is better than Moses. Hebrews chapter 7 talks about the fact that Christ was of a better priestly line than the Levites. Chapters 8 and 9 of Hebrews deal with a better covenant. Hebrews chapter 11 deals with the faith of people who are all a part of the history of Israel.

from the evidence above, we would have to say that this book was written to the Jewish people. This does not mean that we should discard the book of Hebrews or any other Jewish epistles. The book is not written to us, but it is written for us (2 Timothy 3:16).

What Was the Purpose of the Letter?

The book of Hebrews contains the word “better” thirteen times. Christ is better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4), he brought in a better hope than the law (Hebrews 7:19), he was made surety of a better testament (Hebrews 7:22), he is the mediator of a better covenant (Hebrews 8:6), and he was a better sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23).

The book of Hebrews was written to the Jewish people in order to prove that Jesus Christ was “better” than Judaism.

The Time

In order to rightly divide the word of God, we must consider several things. When was the book written, who was it written to, and what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written? We have already discussed who the book was written to, but let us now look at when it was written.

The book of Hebrews was written nearly 30 years after the death of Christ. The temple was still standing and in operation (Hebrews 13:10-11). Jewish people were persecuted when they accepted Christ (Hebrews 10:32), for many Jews were still zealous over the law (Acts 21:20). Many Jewish people were still living under the banner of Judaism and to accept Christ was to reject Judaism.

The Passage

Now we will look at the question, “what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written?”

Verse 23

In verse 23, the Apostle Paul says, “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)”. First notice the word “profession”. A profession is not always true (Romans 1:22). Salvation is not based on our profession, but rather on a belief with the heart and confession of the mouth (Romans 10:9-10). Confession is agreeing with God, for example, when you confess your sins you are agreeing with God against your sins. The Apostle Paul warns the Hebrews not to waver from their profession.

Verses 24-25

These verses were written to exhort the Hebrews to meet together for worship and provoke one another to good works. The early church met often, and one reason was probably to strengthen and encourage each other in times of persecution.

Verses 26-27

Here we have one of the favorite verses of the Armenians, but remember the context of the book of Hebrews. Paul writes, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

Notice three things about this passage.

The sin was done on purpose (willfully). One point to make here is that if this is loss of salvation then we’ve all lost it. You say well I haven’t murdered anyone or committed adultery, but that is not what the verse says. The verse says willful sin. That is anything done knowingly that was unrighteous. Have you lied lately? Probably just a white lie….Have you not done something this week that you knew you should have done (James 4:17)
This person has received the knowledge of the truth.
If this proves that these people were saved then we have some problems.
Were all of the religious leaders saved? According to John 3:2 they knew that Jesus came from God. They had received the knowledge of the truth, but they didn’t all get saved.
The devils time and time again called Jesus the Son of God. Were they saved? No, but they sure did have knowledge of the truth.
So we see that knowledge of the truth in itself merits nothing, but faith in a person is what receives salvation.
After this sin there is no more sacrifice for sin. Keep in mind this is written to the Jewish people. What sin is it when done on purpose, allows no more sacrifice for sins?
Let us look at a scenario. A Jewish boy is born about the time of Christ’s death. He was raised to go to Jerusalem three times a year to appear before the Lord (Exodus 23:14,17; Deuteronomy 16:16). He went through all of the ceremonies and went to the schools of the Hebrews. He was taught to look for the coming of the Messiah, that He would come as a King to deliver His people. Then at about the age of 30, this young man hears a message preached that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that He died for the sins of the whole world. This young man learns more and more about the life of Christ, and begins to compare it with the law and the prophets. God opens his eyes to the fact that Christ was in fact the Messiah and that he must receive Christ by faith. Up to this point he like the apostle Paul has been zealous for God in the law, but now he has “received the knowledge of the truth”. If he receives Christ, then he will be persecuted greatly and his family will probably have a funeral for him and count him as dead. The fear of persecution drives him to “wilfully” reject Christ and return to Judaism. God says to this young man, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”. A spotless lamb or any other sacrifice will no longer hold off the wrath of God, the young man has seen God’s sacrifice. This young man will die and face judgment and fiery indignation, because he rejects God’s sacrifice.

Rejecting Christ is the only sin in this age that will send a man to hell.

Verses 28-29

In verses 28 and 29 Paul writes, “He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” Under the law, the punishment of sin against the commandments in many cases meant death. All it took was the witness of two or three.

According to Hebrews, God hath in these last days spoken unto us by His son. God has three witnesses (1 John 5:7-8). The “sorer punishment” will be poured out on those who “wilfully” reject the Son of God.

Notice in verse 28 that this person has “trodden under foot” the Son of God. When Moses told the children of Israel to put the blood on the side posts and lintel, he said nothing of putting the blood on the floor. In a sense those people were spared by going into the house through or under the blood. To be saved we must go through or under the blood, but this man has lowered the blood and has “trodden under foot”.

Notice next the phrase “wherewith he was sanctified”. The word “sanctified” means to be set apart in holiness. If the word “sanctified” simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture. Remember that the idea of Hebrews is that Jesus Christ is better. Some would say that the person sanctified is the same person who has counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, but look again. Jesus Christ’s blood sanctified himself. The blood set Him apart from bulls, goats, and all other blood either before or after.

Next notice the phrase “despite unto the Spirit of grace.” What this person has done has insulted the spirit of grace. We are saved by grace, and when someone turns from the free offer of salvation to Judaism or any other religion it is a disgrace to the spirit of grace.

Conclusion

In closing we will add evidence that Paul is not talking about the believers backsliding and losing their salvation. In verse 39 Paul says, “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Paul says I’m not talking about us because we have believed to the saving of our soul. These difficult verses when taken in context make more sense and prove once again that the book of Hebrews is about the fact that Jesus Christ is better.

(Forwarded from Ray, Andrew)

--------------------
That is all.....

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oneinchrist
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Sister Carols post stated:

"But He doesnt leave us"

My question:But isnt it true that the scriptures show that we can leave Him?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end,

Sister Carol, if it is not possible for us to depart from the faith...........how then would you interpret the above verses?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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I don't see "disinheritor of saints" on this list. Nothing can seperate us from the love of Christ. (Romans 8:38-39) That means nothing can.

Titles And Names Of Christ

Abraham’s Seed (Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:16).
Advocate (1 John 2:1).
Almighty (Revelation 1:8).
Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 22:13).
Amen (Revelation 3:14).
Angel (Genesis 48:16; Exodus 23:20,21).
Angel of God’s presence (Isaiah 63:9).
Angel of the Lord (Exodus 3:2; Judges 13:15-22).
Apostle (Hebrews 3:1).
Arm of the Lord (Isaiah 51:9; 53:1).
Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).
Author of eternal salvation (Hebrews 5:9).
Beginning of the creation of God (Revelation 3:14).
Beloved (Ephesians 1:6).
Beloved Son (Matthew 12:18).
Blessed and only Potentate (1 Timothy 6:15).
Branch (Jeremiah 23:5; Zechariah 3:8; 6:12).
Bread of Life (John 6:35, 48).
Bridegroom (Matthew 9:15).
Bright and Morning Star (Revelation 22:16).
Captain of Salvation (Hebrews 2:10).
Captain of the Lord’s hosts (Joshua 5:14,15).
Carpenter (Mark 6:3).
Carpenter’s Son (Matthew 13:55).
Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6).
Chief Shepherd (1 Peter 5:4).
Christ (Matthew 16:20; Mark 14:16; Luke 23:2).
Christ Jesus (Acts 19:4; Romans 3:24; 8:1; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1:30).
Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:39; 1 Timothy 1:12).
Christ of God (Luke 9:20).
Christ the Lord (Luke 2:11).
Commander (Isaiah 55:4).
Consolation of Israel (Luke 2:25).
Cornerstone (Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20).
Counselor (Isaiah 9:6).
Creator (John 1:3).
David (Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:23).
Dayspring (Luke 1:78).
Deliverer (Romans 11:26).
Desire of all nations (Haggai 2:7).
Door (John 10:7).
Elect of God (Isaiah 42:1).
Eternal life (1 John 1:2; 5:20).
Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6).
Faithful and True (Revelation 19:11).
Faithful witness (Revelation 1:5; 3:14).
First and Last (Revelation 1:17; 2:8).
Firstborn (Psalms 89:27; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 1:5).
Forerunner (Hebrews 6:20).
Fountain (Zechariah 13:1).
Glory of the Lord (Isaiah 40:5).
God (Isaiah 40:9; John 20:28).
God blessed forever (Romans 9:5).
God’s fellow (Zechariah 13:7).
Good Shepherd (John 10:14).
Governor (Matthew 2:6).
Great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14).
Head of the Church (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18).
Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2).
High Priest (Hebrews 4:14).
Holy Child (Acts 4:27).
Holy One (Psalms 16:10, with Acts 2:27; 3:14).
Holy One of God (Mark 1:24).
Holy One of Israel (Isaiah 41:14; 54:5).
Horn of salvation (Luke 1:69).
I AM, (Exodus 3:14, with John 8:58).
Image of God (2 Corinthians 4:4).
Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
Jesus (Matthew 1:21; 1 Thessalonians 1:10).
Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:1).
Jesus of Nazareth (Matthew 21:11; Mark 1:24; Luke 24:19).
Judge (Acts 10:42; 2 Timothy 4:8).
Judge of Israel (Micah 5:1).
Just One (Acts 7:52; 22:14).
King (Zechariah 9:9, with Matthew 21:5).
King of Glory (Psalms 24:7-10).
King of Israel (John 1:49).
King of Kings (1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 17:14).
King of peace (Hebrews 7:2).
King of righteousness (Hebrews 7:2).
King of Saints (Revelation 15:3).
King of Salem (Hebrews 7:1).
King of the Jews (Matthew 2:2; 27:37; John 19:19).
King of Zion (Matthew 21:25).
Lamb (Revelation 5:6, 12; 13:8; 21:22; 22:3).
Lamb of God (John 1:29, 36).
Lawgiver (Isaiah 33:22).
Leader (Isaiah 55:4).
Life (John 14:6; Colossians 3:4; 1 John 1:2).
Light of the world (John 1:8; 8:12).
Lily of the valleys (Song of Solomon 2:1).
Lion of the tribe of Judah (Revelation 5:5).
Living Bread (John 6:51).
Living Stone (1 Peter 2:4).
Lord and Savior (2 Peter 1:11; 3:18).
Lord Christ (Colossians 3:24).
Lord God Almighty (Revelation 15:3).
Lord God of the holy prophets (Revelation 22:6).
Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59; Colossians 3:17).
Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17; 16:31; 20:21).
Lord of all (Acts 10:36).
Lord of glory (1 Corinthians 2:8; James 2:1).
Lord of Hosts (Isaiah 44:6).
Lord of Lords (1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 17:14; 19:16).
Lord our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6; 33:16).
Man of Sorrows (Isaiah 53:3).
Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5).
Messenger of the covenant (Malachi 3:1).
Messiah (Daniel 9:25; John 1:41).
Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6).
Mighty One of Israel (Isaiah 30:29).
Mighty One of Jacob (Isaiah 49:26; 60:16).
Morningstar (Revelation 22:16; 2 Peter 1:19).
Most Holy (Daniel 9:24).
Nazarene (Matthew 2:23).
Offspring of David (Revelation 22:16).
Only Begotten Son (John 1:18).
Only Begotten (John 1:14).
Our Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7).
Potentate (1 Timothy 6:15).
Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).
Prince (Acts 5:31).
Prince of life (Acts 3:15).
Prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6).
Prince of the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5).
Prophet (Matthew 21:11; Luke 24:19; John 7:40).
Rabbi (John 1:49).
Rabboni (John 20:16).
Ransom (1 Timothy 2:6).
Redeemer (Job 19:25; Isaiah 59:20; Isaiah 60:16).
Resurrection and life (John 11:25).
Rock (1 Corinthians 10:4).
Rock of Offence (1 Peter 2:8).
Root of David (Revelation 5:5; 22:16).
Root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:10).
Rose of Sharon (Song of Solomon 2:1).
Ruler of Israel (Micah 5:2).
Savior (Luke 2:11; 2 Peter 2:20; 3:18).
Savior of the Body (Ephesians 5:23).
Sceptre (Numbers 24:17).
Second Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45).
Second Man (1 Corinthians 15:47).
Seed of David (2 Timothy 2:8).
Seed of woman (Genesis 3:15).
Servant (Isaiah 42:1; 52:13; 53:11; Acts 4:30).
Servant of Rulers (Isaiah 49:7).
Shepherd (Mark 14:27).
Shepherd and Overseer of Souls (1 Peter 2:25).
Shepherd of Israel (Psalms 80:1).
Shiloh (Genesis 49:10).
Son of David (Matthew 9:27).
Son of God (Luke 1:35; John 1:49).
Son of Joseph (John 6:42).
Son of man (John 5:27).
Son of the Blessed (Mark 14:61).
Son of the Father (2 John 1:3).
Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32).
Star (Numbers 24:17).
Stone of Stumbling (1 Peter 2:8).
Sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2).
Sure Foundation (Isaiah 28:16).
Surety (Hebrews 7:22).
Teacher (Matthew 23:8; John 3:2).
Tender Plant (Isaiah 53:2).
True God (1 John 5:20).
True Light (John 1:9).
True Vine (John 15:1).
Truth (John 14:6).
Vine (John 15:1).
Way (John 14:6).
Wisdom (Proverbs 8:12).
Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).
Witness (Isaiah 55:4; Revelation 1:5).
Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6).
Word (John 1:1; 1 John 5:7).
Word of God (Revelation 19:13).
Word of Life (1 John 1:1).

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Carol Swenson
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Well, barry, maybe you can reject Christ. But the Spirit within you should be telling you otherwise.

What is the significance of the sealing of the Holy Spirit? For one thing, it speaks of a finished transaction. Even today, when important legal documents are processed, they are stamped with the official seal to signify the completion of the transaction. This sealing also implies ownership: God has put his seal on us because He has purchased us to be His own (1 Cor. 6:19-20). It also means security and protection. The Roman seal on the tomb of Jesus carried this meaning (Matt. 27:62-66). So, the believer belongs to God, and is safe and protected because he is a part of a finished transaction. According to John 14:16-17, the Holy Spirit abides with the believer forever. It is possible for us to grieve the Spirit and thereby lose the blessings of His ministry (Eph. 4:30). But He doesn’t leave us.

Another use for the seal is as a mark of authenticity. Just as a signature on a letter attests to the genuineness of the document, so the presence of the Spirit proves the believer is genuine. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His” (Rom. 8:9). It is not simply our lip profession, our religious activity, or our good works, but the witness of the Spirit that makes our profession authentic.

(Wiersbe)

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barrykind
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Sister carol states"

quote:
It doesn't say a person who claims to be...

It says a person who is TRULY born again.

How could the Holy Spirit of Christ reject Christ?

You know after days and days of posts and hours and hours of debate...

A person can REJECT Christ and walk away from salvation.... Go Back and read the myriads of posts on OSAS.....

--------------------
The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

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Carol Swenson
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It doesn't say a person who claims to be...

It says a person who is TRULY born again.

How could the Holy Spirit of Christ reject Christ?


John 6:39-40 (NASB)
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

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