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Author Topic: Eternal Security
Carol Swenson
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Eternal Security

‘…nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor. If one dear saint of God had perished, so might all; and then there is no gospel promise true, but the Bible is a lie, and there is nothing in it worth my acceptance… If I did not believe the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints, I think I should be of all men the most miserable, because I should lack any ground of comfort.’ (Charles Spurgeon)
.

What it is: That once a lost sinner has put his/her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as the only means of salvation and has been justified from every charge, being made a partaker of the divine nature, then it is impossible for that person to ever be lost again.

What it isn’t: Eternal security doesn’t mean that anyone who attends church, or brings their life into accord with Christian teaching, or goes forward at a salvation meeting is forever saved. It is important to mention that this whole study is concerning those that have been truly born again. Many profess Jesus Christ but have never been saved. This whole study is based on the promises and work of God for those that have truly entered into His family.

I want to start this study on eternal security with a couple of questions that at face value may not seem to have much in common with the topic at hand. Here are the questions:

Why does the nation of Israel still exist, and why are they still in possession of their land?
The answers to these questions have a lot to do with eternal security because it shows the faithfulness of God to keep his word even when his chosen people are in a state of unbelief.

The Abrahamic Covenant

Israel still exists and is in possession of their land because God made an unconditional covenant with Abraham. In it, God promised Abraham that his descendants would become a great nation and that they would be given the land forever. (Gen 12:1-3, 13:14-17) The term in Hebrew for making a covenant is ‘to cut a covenant’. The corpse of an animal is cut in half and both parties making the covenant would pass through the two halves of the carcass. In the Abrahamic covenant God put Abraham into a deep sleep and passed through the pieces alone signifying that the fulfillment of the covenant rested entirely with Him! (Gen 15:6-21)

Because of this covenant, Abraham’s descendants are still in possession of the land today. They have been persecuted more than any other nation but they still exist because of God. You cannot point to their faith or love for God as reasons why God has preserved them because they have largely been in a state of unbelief, rejected His prophets, even rejecting His own Son. They exist because of God’s faithfulness to keep his promise. In showing what is going to happen to Israel, Paul declares ‘that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved… From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved; for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Rom 11:25-29)

Why is this important?

This is crucial because it shows that once an unconditional covenant has been made, God will not change his mind but will fulfill what He has promised. Paul’s confidence that Israel will be saved in the end was based on two things:

1) The fact that Israel is beloved for the sake of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob)

2) The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (meaning He will not change His mind.)

The New Covenant that a believer enters into is an unconditional covenant

It is God who has promised to keep our salvation safe and secure to the end. Has God called you? Have you been given the gift of the Holy Spirit? Then if so, believe in the faithfulness of God because the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable! He will not change His mind or go back on those He has called!

Four Passages Teaching Eternal Security

The following are four passages that I want to comment on concerning eternal security. There are far more than these, some of which have been mentioned at the end of this study.

Rom 8:30-39

Vs 30: ‘And those whom He predestined, He also called; and these He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.’

***Question: Who is the ‘He’?

Obviously it is God the Father who has done these things. That’s why we believe the salvation is from God. We don’t save ourselves. God saves us. This verse declares that God performs each stage of our salvation. It started before the foundation of the world (predestined…) and ends at the Second Coming.(glorified…). Our glorification is so assured that it is written in the past tense. Glorification is not earned but is an act of divine grace to those who believe. And it is assured because our life (the new creation) is hidden with Christ in God and is revealed when He comes in glory. Do you really think a true believer can lose his salvation when God has done all this to make it safe?

***Question: Going back to Rom 8:30, where in a passage like this could you even begin to talk about a true believer losing his salvation?

Nowhere, because it is God who completes each stage of our salvation. You see, it doesn’t even come down to what a person believes about predestination and election. Some believe that God specifically chose those that He would save, and this choice is totally independent of any action on the part of one chosen. Others believe that God, before the foundation of the world, simply saw those that would believe (because He is outside of time…) and chose them, knowing that they would have faith and live for Him. Either way, we can still be confident that the ones God has predestined, He will call. Those that He calls, He will justify. And those that He justifies, He will certainly glorify! The only question left would be that which Paul asks next – ‘What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us who can be against us?’

Vs 33 ‘Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.’

For a moment, let’s say you can lose your salvation. If this were true then obviously God would be the only one who could pass that decree. He is the judge of mankind. He is the one who declared you to be righteous in his sight so therefore he is the only one who could now declare you to be ‘lost’ again. Now do you really think that God is going to bring a charge against his elect? Of course not! He justified them knowing everything that they would ever do. Verse 33 states that God the Father will not do this. Will Jesus Christ bring a charge against a believer? Of course not! He died for them and now lives to intercede for them. Their salvation is secure because it is in Gods hands, not mans.

Vs 37-39 ‘For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is the climax of Paul’s doctrine of salvation. It comes at the end of Romans eight where he is summing up his message, the good news of salvation for those who believe.

***Question: What is there that is not included in the words ‘death’, ‘life’ or ‘things to come’ that could cause you to lose your salvation?

Nothing! He is trying to make it as clear as he can. There is nothing in this life that can separate us from God. There is nothing in the future that can cause us to be separated from God! Our current life can’t do it, our death can’t, and angels and demons can’t. There are no powers that can even come close because God is the author and perfecter of our salvation!

John 6:37-40

Vs 37-38 ‘All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.’

Verse 37 combines Gods sovereignty, mans responsibility, and eternal security for those who do come to Him. We can be assured that of all that the Father gives the Son, he will never cast them away.

***Question: What would have happened if Jesus didn’t complete the will of God?

For Jesus to be able to die on our behalf he had to be a spotless sacrificial offering to God. If at any stage he had not performed the will of God then that would be sin. Jesus had to be perfect in all that he said and did for his death to be accepted by God.

***Question: What was the will of God that he had to do?

Vs 39 ‘This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose none, but raise them up on the last day.’

The only place I can find where Jesus stated what the overall will of the Father was, is in this verse and it’s states that it is God’s will that Jesus loses none of those that the Father has given him!

***Question: Will Jesus ever fail to do God will?

Never! Otherwise no one could be saved. So to say that a truly born again believer can lose his salvation is equivalent to saying that Jesus has lost one of those that God has given him and thus has failed in completing the will of God! No No No No, No! A believer’s salvation is secure because it is Jesus who keeps them safe and loses none!

John 10:27-29

Vs 27 ‘My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.’

This whole discussion about eternal security is only directed towards those that have been born again. In this passage, Jesus calls them his ‘sheep’. He says that he knows them, and they in turn follow him. There are a lot of people out there that profess to be Christians who are not. They may join a church, be baptised, and perform good works but if they have never truly come to God for salvation through Jesus Christ then it will not help them. Jesus spoke of these people when he said ‘Many will say to me on that day, Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.’ By their very question they show themselves to be false sheep, for what truly born again believer would come into God’s presence and point to the things that they had so-called done for God? True sheep boast only in their shepherd and it is utter stupidity, when God is calling all to behold his Son, to tell God to behold your works!

***Question: What is the difference between these groups?

Of the first group he says ‘I know them’. Of the second group he says ‘I never knew you’. The difference is not about the works done but about truly being saved and having a relationship with the shepherd. Of the first group, those who are truly his sheep Jesus goes on to say:

Vs ‘…and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.’

***Question: When do you receive eternal life and how long does it last?

Eternal life is Gods life, whose nature is eternal. That’s why the bible declares that ‘God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life.’ 1John 5:11-12

Notice the past tense in ‘has given us’. You receive eternal life when you receive Jesus Christ because all things are in Him. And of course it never ends. It is eternal, as God is eternal. So to say that a true believer could lose his salvation would be to say that his eternal life has come to an end. Stupid. Jesus himself, who is our life, has promised us that he will ‘never leave us or forsake us.’ This is his promise to his true sheep. Likewise to say that a true believer could lose his salvation would be the same as saying that one of Jesus’ sheep has perished. But he has promised that his true sheep ‘will never perish’.

Vs 29 ‘My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Fathers hand.’

***Question: Even though no one can snatch a true believer out of Gods hand, they can choose to walk away right?

No. In terms of your salvation, you are not holding onto him; He is holding onto you. He holds you like you would hold someone hanging off a cliff. If their strength gives way and they can hold no longer, you still have them firmly in your grasp. And he would hold you like this even while you go through your period of insanity, wanting to walk away from him.

Hebrews 10

A lot of the problems that people have in accepting eternal security come from the fact that they don’t understand how fully Jesus dealt with the whole sin issue on the cross. They still have an Old Testament view of forgiveness. Hebrews 10 was written to show how ‘much better’ it is for those under the New Covenant.

Vs 1-3 ‘The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming, not the reality themselves. For this reason it can never by the same sacrifices repeated year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshippers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

***Question: From the above scripture what is the consequence of being made ‘perfect’?

If someone could have been made perfect then they would have one cleansing that was for all time. It would take all sins into account, past present and future. The person having been made perfect would no longer have to go around guilty (or conscious as the NASB puts it) of their sins.

***Question: Could living under the law do this?

No, because the sacrifices only dealt with sins previously committed but could in no way help sins that were to be committed in the future. Thus they had to be repeated endlessly year after year.

Vs 4 ‘But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.’

The people living under this system were never free because the very next day after the annual sacrifice they would sin again and straight away need another sacrifice. They were constantly guilty and aware of their sins. This also describes the condition of a believer who hasn’t come to realise the extent of Gods provision and grace in the sacrifice of His Son.

***Question: Has anybody ever been ‘made perfect’?

Vs 14 ‘For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.’

When a sinner is born again all sin is dealt with once and for all. It is not just the sins he has committed that are forgiven. It is all the sins he will ever commit that have been forgiven! When Jesus died on the cross all of our sins were in the future and He paid for them all. So much so that the Bible can now say that a believer has been (notice the past tense) made perfect, which, from verse 2 means that he has been cleansed once for all sin and no longer has to go around with a sense of guilt for them. And notice how long this position of the believer is said to last for – ‘made perfect forever’. Forever means eternally secure! Oh the grace of God!

Vs 17-18 ‘And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.’

***Question: Why is there no longer any sacrifice for sin?

Because there is no sin left to forgive. Simple. It has been dealt with once and for all. Notice the lengths that the writer of Hebrews goes to, to stress this point. (Ch 7:27, 9:12, 25-26, 28, 10:1-2, 10, 12, 14).

***Question: Does sin then affect our relationship with God?

Sin in the believer’s life can affect their daily relationship with God if it is not recognised as such and confessed to God (1 John 1.9). But in no way does this annul their position in God as being justified and declared perfect in his sight. This is where so many Christians get the cart before the horse thinking that their works give them a greater position in God.

Sanctification does not lead to justification! Justification leads on to sanctification!

Saying it another way, for a born again believer our practice does not alter our position in Christ. We are justified (a position where God declares you righteous in his sight) and sanctification (becoming more like Christ in our life) follows that. As outward example is in John 13:3-10. Peter was completely clean (vs 10) which speaks of justification, but as he walks in the world he needed to clean his feet as they would get dirty. As believers we are ‘completely clean’ as the Lord said, or ‘made perfect forever’ as Hebrews declares. As we walk in the world there is the need to clean our feet by coming to God and acknowledging our wrong ways.

Reactions when so-called followers walked away.

The bible presents cases where people have turned away from the Lord and abandoned the faith. How should we view such people? Still saved, never saved or not saved anymore? We will look at the reaction of Jesus, John, and Paul.

John 6 (Jesus)

Vs 41 ‘Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said ‘I am the bread that came down out of heaven’

Vs 60 ‘Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said. ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this…’

Vs 66 ‘As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.’

In John chapter 6 we have a progression of opposition to what Jesus was saying. Firstly the Jews in general opposed Him. Then those who were said to be His disciples grumbled, and finally they ‘withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.’

***Question: How did Jesus react to His own disciples leaving Him?

This is crucial. When His own disciples turned away from Him did he treat them as still saved, never saved, or no longer saved?

Vs 63 ‘It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh counts for nothing; the words I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.’

Vs 65 ‘For this reason I have said to you, that nobody can come to me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’

Jesus confirmed three things:

1) The Spirit is the one who imparts true spiritual life and without this people will not accept Jesus revelation concerning Himself. But the one who has received life will accept Jesus’ teaching because His words are spirit and are life.

2) That people may follow after Him for all sorts of fleshly reasons but in the end it counts for nothing. They are not saved and will fall away when hardship or persecution begins.

3) That for a person to be truly saved the Father himself must call him to His Son and that the people who were turning from Him showed that they had never been called or saved to begin with.

Jesus didn’t freak out by this opposition because He knew those that truly believed and of them declared that he would lose none! We are in a less fortunate position of not really knowing who has and who hasn’t been saved but the word is still true that those who are saved are eternally secure.

1 John 2:18-19 (John)

‘Children it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us.’

Here we have the reaction of John when people left the faith. They had been with them but had left. Did John react by saying that they had now lost their salvation? No. Johns reaction to this is to declare that they could not have been saved to begin with else they would not have left the faith.

2 Tim 2:17-19 (Paul)

‘…and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place and they upset the faith of some. Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His”, and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness..”

Paul’s reaction when these two characters had gone astray from the truth affirms how we are to look at salvation. He says that the foundation of God (or salvation) has this seal –

“The Lord knows those that are His.” This is how God views salvation and affirms eternal security. Jesus said he knows his sheep and they shall never perish. From Gods point of view, all of his children are safe and are eternally secure because he knows them and will never let them completely fall. The problem only comes with us because we cannot see the heart of a person or how true their faith is.

“Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.” This is mans view of salvation. This is what we should be able to see. We may not be able to see a person’s heart but we can see a changed life and the evidence of a true salvation will be a turning away from sin. If a person confesses Jesus Christ as Lord but has no fruit or evidence of that salvation in their life then what confidence is there that they are actually saved? None. (1John 3:10-11)

Other Verses Confirming Eternal Security

Apart from the verses already discussed, here are some other reasons why true sons of God are eternally secure:

1. They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus confirming that their salvation is finished and secure, and also that they are perfect in Christ already. (Eph 1:3, 2:6)

2. The Holy Spirit seals them as a mark of ownership and security until the day of redemption. Even grieving the Holy Spirit doesn’t cause Him to leave (Eph 1:13-14, 4:30)

3. The promise of God is that He would never leave or forsake his children. Likewise the Holy Spirit is promised to be with true believers forever. (Heb 13:5, John 14:16)

4. The penalty for all sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Rom 3:23-26, 4:23-5:2, 5:6-9)

5. They have been born again and they cannot be unborn, nor can the new creation perish because they have been born from imperishable seed. (! Pet 1:23)

6. The new creation is totally secure because it has been hid with Christ in God until Jesus comes in glory and his sons are revealed. (Col 3:1-4)

7. If a Christian’s life and work are completely burnt up at the judgement seat of Christ (that is, there was nothing that he did that was based upon the foundation of Jesus Christ) he himself is still saved yet with no rewards.(1 Cor 3: 15)

8. God who began the good work in them has promised that he will carry it on until the day when Jesus returns. They are called to ‘work out’, not ‘work for’ their salvation. (Phil 1:6, 2:12-13)

9. They stand before God clothed in the righteousness of Christ, not in their own righteousness. (2 Cor 5:21,Rom 5:19-21)

10. God, knowing everything that would happen, chose them before the foundation of the world and as such they are holy and blameless before Him. (Eph 1:4)

11. They are kept by the power of God through faith, and not through the efforts or the works of the one who is saved. (1 Pet 1:5)

12. Their inheritance is assured and is imperishable, kept in heaven for them. (1 Pet 1:2-4)

13. Jesus is able to save them completely because He lives to make intercession for them and He cannot die. (Heb 7:24-25)

14. Even though all their righteousness is as filthy rags, they have been saved (past tense, completed event) by grace (the unmerited favor of God) and not by their own works, so that even in the ages to come they may marvel at the surpassing riches of his grace! (Eph 2:6-9)

15. They are God the Father’s irrevocable gift to the Son and He never changes his mind about His gifts and callings. (John 17:6-7, Rom 11:29)

16. God has promised to keep them from falling and to present them faultless before Himself. (Jude 24, 1 Thes 5:23-24, 1 Cor 1:8-9 Note: Even though Paul had much to say about the gross sins that were happening in the Corinthian church, he still gave them the promise that God is faithful and would present them blameless on the day of Christ Jesus!)

Let me just end with another quote from Charles Spurgeon because I believe, as he did, that a knowledge of eternal security produces within the believer a love, amazement, and gratitude towards God that no fear of falling away could ever do.

‘No doctrine is so calculated to preserve a man from sin as the doctrine of the grace of God. Those who have called it ‘a licentious doctrine’ did not know anything at all about it. If they knew the grace of God in truth, they would soon see that there was no preservative from lying like knowledge that we are the elect of God from the foundation of the world. There is nothing like a belief in my eternal perseverance, and the immutability of my Father’s affection, which can keep me near to Him from a motive of simple gratitude… Of all men, those have the most disinterested piety, the sublimest reverence, the most ardent devotion, who believe that they are saved by grace, without works, through faith, and that not of themselves, it is the gift of God.

I Gordon
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Carol Swenson
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Eternal Security – Part 2

Some of those ‘but what about…’ passages!

The following are questions concerning passages that some like to use to support the view that a true born again can fall away and lose their salvation. Nearly all of these questions have been taken from emails sent in to the ‘Jesus Plus Nothing’ website. There is no doubt that there are passages in the Bible which are difficult to understand. Quite a few of the questions mentioned below, deal with passages that have been debated for centuries. They are debated because they are difficult! In the end however, there is no middle ground that can be taken as to whether a true born-again believer can lose their salvation. It is either ‘yes’ or it is ‘no’. Jesus is either able to keep us secure, or He isn’t. I have put these questions and answers together to form this study because I am sure that others have had these, or similar questions, in their mind. For those that are interested, I would also like to recommend two books by William MacDonald that have been very useful to me – Firstly his commentary on the entire Bible, the ‘Believers Bible Commentary’. And secondly a book on eternal security that he wrote called ‘Once in Christ, In Christ Forever’. Both of these books are very useful resources and they cover a much wider range of questions than could be expressed in this study.

Question 1: What does ‘falling away’ or ‘turning away’ mean to a saved person?

In looking up these verses again, I found it interesting that the term 'fall away' was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a 'falling away'. (see Matt 26:31-35) Obviously, this is not a loss of salvation. For the true believer it may involve a temporary period of backsliding or time of being out of fellowship with God. It is times when for one reason or another, the believer is having difficulty in his Christian walk. The believer would not however deny what they believe in their heart, even though their walk would not match what they believe. But note that even though Jesus said they would 'fall away', in the very same context, he also said to Peter that he had prayed that his faith would not fail and when he returned, to strengthen his brethren. (Luke 22:32) In other words, true believers may fall at times but their faith does not fail because Jesus intercedes for them. Concerning this intercession we are told 'hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him (true salvation), since He always lives to make intercession for them.' And when do true believers need Jesus' intercession more but when they are struggling? See also John 17:6-12 concerning this intercession by Jesus for His believers. In this ‘High Priestly’ prayer, Jesus makes it clear that the ones that God has given Him he keeps safe! See also Rom 8:32-34 where Jesus' intercession is used as one of the points to show that we cannot be separated from the love of Christ.

In contrast to this are several other passages which speak of apostasy. The first falling away is temporary and is in regard to their walk. For a true believer however, they will never deny their faith in the Lord Jesus. And, like the true prodigal son, they will return. Apostasy however, as mentioned in Heb 6:6 and 1 Tim 4:1 amongst other verses, speaks of a falling away from the faith - an abandonment of the faith and truth of the gospel. This is prophesied to increase greatly in the end times. As Heb 6:4-7 states this is done by those who very much look like they are genuine saved believers. They have known everything that is needed to be saved; they have felt the conviction and drawing of the Holy Spirit, maybe even seen other signs that enable them to make a genuine decision. They may even go along with Christian teaching for a while... but they become apostates... prodigal pigs who turn away from it all, deny the truth and go back to the mud.

Concerning apostasy (deliberately falling away and turning from the truth of the faith) William MacDonald writes in the Believers Bible Commentary - 'Apostasy is a sin which is only committed by unbelievers, not by those who are deceived, but by those who knowingly, and wilfully and maliciously turn from the truth... Apostasy should not be confused with backsliding. A true believer may wander very far from Christ. Through sin his fellowship with God is shattered. But he can be restored to full fellowship as he confesses and forsakes his sin.'

Titus 1:10-16 also talks of those that 'turn from the truth' calling them 'empty talkers and deceivers'... those who are 'defiled and unbelieving' and it says that they profess to know God but by their deeds they deny Him.' This is no sheep of God we are talking about here. More like a wolf!

Question 2: Are the people spoken of in 2 Peter 2, who had knowledge of Jesus and then left, true believers who have now lost their salvation?

J. Vernon McGee, a well loved Bible teacher, wrote about this passage, saying that that there are prodigal sons (Luke 15) and there are prodigal pigs! (2 Pet 2:22) The prodigal son gave up that which his father had for him and wasted it all through sinful living. But because he was a true son, he turned, repented and came back to his father. A prodigal pig on the other hand, is one who comes into church for a season, tries to tidy himself up, yet not being truly saved and still having the nature of a pig, his desire is to return to the mud from which he came and that is exactly what he does! A prodigal son may stupidly go into the world for a season, but in his heart he will never find rest and will long for, and return, home. Where as a prodigal pig may wash all the mud off, come into church, but in his heart he won’t find rest either, for the nature of a pig just loves mud and given time will return.

The people mentioned in 2 Peter 2:22 are prodigal pigs who do not have a true saving faith. We should also see the context that this whole passage is talking about. The whole chapter is concerning false teachers and false prophets. They ‘forsake the right way and go astray’, ‘revelling in their deceptions.’ Doesn’t sound like sheep to me!

Question 3: …I read the passage Hebrew 6:4-6. This has put a great fear in my heart for fear I will not be able to fully return and receive the Spirit in my life. Can you shed some light on this passage for me?

There are only three ways you can take a passage such as this.

It speaks of true Christians who fall away and lose their salvation. If that is true, then also notice that it is impossible for them to come back. (vs 6) You wrote in your question that this passage put ‘great fear in your heart that you would not be able to fully return and receive the Spirit in your life.’ Well, this passage goes further than that and says those who have fallen away, whoever they are, CANNOT come back.

It speaks of professing believers who are in fact, prodigal pigs. They are apostates. Those that have heard, seen, and tasted all that they need to be truly saved, but haven’t become born again Christians and still having the nature of a pig within them, wilfully turn their backs on it all and return to wallow in the mud!

It is a hypothetical argument since because it is impossible to fall away, the exhortation is given to urge the Christians on to more growth. My bible gives the following comparison for this type of view. It is similar to saying to a class of students ‘It is impossible for a student, once enrolled in this course, to turn the clock back (which cannot be done), to start the course over. Therefore let all students go on towards deeper knowledge.

To say that it is true Christians who have lost their salvation (as no 1 does) doesn’t line up with the promises in the rest of God’s word for God’s true sheep that salvation is secure (such as John 6:37-40, John 10:26-30, and Rom 8:33-39 especially in light of Rom 11:29 plus heaps of others). Nor does the fact that these people can’t repent (if they were true Christians) line up with other scriptures such as the prodigal son, 1 John 1:9 and the overall teaching of the New Testament. So I don’t believe point 1.

Point 3 doesn’t really make sense to me (it being a hypothetical argument) as the whole passage seems to be giving a clear warning to someone! Its just who is the warning for?

Point 2 is what I believe, and here is why.

(vs 1-3) Firstly, at the start of the chapter, it talks about going on to maturity. Then in verse 3 it says, ‘and this we will do if God permits.’ So straight away it is showing the possibility that there may be some that God does not permit to go on. Whoever they are… The next verse speaks about those who God does not permit to go on because it starts with ‘for in the case of those who once have been…’ Now God will permit anyone to go on who desires to, but these people don’t desire to, but have rejected it all! And having hardened their heart and become proud they now openly reject Christ. In other words – apostates! God opposes them because in their pride they wilfully oppose Him. But don’t ever think that there are some who truly desire to come close to God whom he won’t allow.

(vs 4-8) Now you probably think that they must have been true Christians for it says they were enlightened, tasted the word of God, and had partook of the Holy Spirit. But all these words can still be true the unsaved individual who has come to a knowledge of the truth, seen the power of the Holy Spirit, and felt the convicting and drawing of the Holy Spirit in their life. Judas was an extreme example of this. He knew all there was to know having followed Jesus for three years. He had experienced the Holy Spirit’s power having been among the twelve sent out, two by two, to cast out demons and heal the sick. Yet he was never truly saved! Jesus own testimony about him confirms that he was not a true sheep that would be kept safe to the end. (John 17:11-12, John 13:18) None of the key words for truly saved individuals such as ‘saving faith’, ‘eternal life’, ‘born again’, ‘redeemed by his blood’, ’saved’, ’salvation’ are used in this passage. In ‘Hebrews verse by verse’, William Newell quotes R.A Torrey on this passage saying ‘there is a quickening short of regeneration’. In other words, this passage speaks of the work of the Holy Spirit within the lives of these people that occurs before and leading up to salvation. But these people do not receive salvation, and openly rejecting it, they go back to the mud even if for a while they looked like the real thing!


(vs 9-10) Greater evidence of the fact that these people were not saved is given in verse 9. Things change in this verse, for now He is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that accompany SALVATION. In other words, the people he was talking about in verses 4-8 didn’t have salvation (and their open rejection testifies to this as well). But he has confidence in the beloved because they are saved! And this will show in their life through their perseverance.

In the Believers Bible Commentary, William MacDonald writes

‘Some earnest Christians are troubled when they read Hebrews 6 and similar passages. Satan uses these verses especially to unsettle believers who are having physical, mental, or emotional difficulties. They fear that they have fallen away from Christ and that there is no hope of restoration. They worry that they have drifted beyond redemption’s point. The fact that they are concerned about it is conclusive evidence that they are not apostates! An apostate would never have any such fears; he would brazenly repudiate Christ. If this sin of apostasy does not apply to believers, to whom then does it apply? It applies, for instance, to a young man who makes a profession of faith in Christ, but then something happens in his life. Perhaps he falls into gross immorality. Or perhaps he goes off to college and is shaken by the anti-Christian arguments of atheistic teachers. With full knowledge of the truth, he deliberately turns away from it, completely renouncing Christ, and viciously tramples on every sacred fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith. The Bible says it is impossible to restore such a one to repentance.’

Question 4: What about Hebrews 10:25-30? What is the ‘wilful sin’ mentioned and is this a loss of salvation?

Heb 10:25-30 is basically a parallel passage to the Heb 6 passage previously mentioned. We should always remember that Hebrews was written to Hebrews – that is, Jewish believers in the first century. That doesn’t make it irrelevant for us, but we should at least read it in its first century context. For a Jew to become a Christian in the first century (and now!) basically meant the death sentence as far as their relationship with their family was concerned. They lost any right to an inheritance and came under extreme pressure (including physical persecution) to leave Christ and go back to Judaism. And that is what many did, even though for a while they looked like true believers. Read Heb 10:25-30 with this in mind. The wilful sin mentioned in verse 26 is linked to the verse before it because it starts with ‘for if..’. The verse before it is speaking of leaving the assembly of believers. The wilful sin that this passage talks about is leaving Christ and going back to Judaism, which was happening. Under Judaism, and what they were going back to, there no longer remained a sacrifice for sin (vs 26) (because God didn’t accept animal sacrifices anymore after Jesus had died for all sin, for all time.) But only judgement could be expected (vs 27 – it is also interesting that Hebrews was written only a couple of years before the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, and the whole Jewish sacrificial system in 70AD by the Romans. Some believe the judgements warned about in the book of Hebrews were speaking of this event.) They had trampled the Son of God underfoot because they had said that His death wasn’t enough or didn’t mean anything and they would carry on with their Jewish sacrifices. This also is how you insult the Spirit of grace. You don’t insult the Spirit of grace by seeing your great need of grace. But you do insult the Spirit of grace when you wilfully turn your back on that grace and go ahead with your own laws and works as an effort to have your own righteousness and means of salvation under the old Jewish laws and sacrificial system.

Like I said at the start, this passage is a parallel passage to Hebrews 6, speaking of the apostasy of those who give up their profession of faith in Christ. The warning is given of what will happen to those that do this. But like the passage in chapter 6, the writer of Hebrews doesn’t leave true believers with this thought of judgement. In chapter 6, at the end of the warning he wrote: ‘But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you (the true believers), things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.’ After the warning in chapter 10, the writer gives the same encouragement to true believers when he writes: ‘But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction (the professing believers who became apostate), but of those who have faith (true believers) to the preserving of the soul.’

Question 5: What does this mean, "Who ever has will be given more and who has not what little he has will be taken away?"

Jesus used this phrase a few times and its meaning should be read in keeping with its context. For instance, in Matt 13:11-12 it is saying that to those who have faith in Jesus (like the disciples He was talking to at the time), more light (in this case the knowledge of the parables) will be given. Where as those who don't believe (like the religious leaders He had previously been speaking to) not only will they not get anymore light, but what they have will be taken away. Hence Jesus spoke in parables so that only His true disciples would understand.

It is also used in Matt 25:29. All of Matt 25 is speaking of the judgement that will occur when Jesus returns to set up His kingdom at the end of the tribulation. All of these illustrations (the virgins, the talents, sheep and goats) are used to express what Jesus had mentioned earlier in his parables. ie that the wheat and the tares will grow together right up until the time of the harvest (the end of the age). The wheat has been planted by the Lord. The tares have been planted by Satan in the same field. There is no real separation of them until the end. So in many cases there are the false and the true within the same field. They may even look similar. See Matt 13:37-43. There will be a separation of the true and the false at the return of Jesus for His bride, and also when He returns to earth to set up His Kingdom. Matt 25, in all its different forms, shows the separation of the true believers from the false, with the false thrown into Hell. In the parable of the talents, there is a false servant. He calls Jesus 'a hard man'. He had been given abilities but had chosen not to use them. The abilities he had, and the freedom to exercise his will, would now be taken from him. He would be thrown into hell and in doing so 'the little that he had (the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance with that salvation) would be taken away'. The true servants however showed the reality of their living faith in using their abilities wisely and were rewarded by entrance into the Kingdom. Whoever has (true faith) will be given more (entrance into the kingdom!)

Question 6: What does it mean that a branch that doesn’t bare fruit will be cast into the fire? Does that refer to a saved person that does nothing for Christ like witnessing or being active in serving Christ?

There are at least three common, yet different interpretations that are given of this difficult verse.

1. It speaks of a saved person who has lost their salvation and is thrown into Hell.

2. It speaks of a professing Christian who, while they look like they have saving faith, prove by their life that this is not the case, and are thrown into Hell.

3. It speaks of the works of unfruitful true believers whose works are burned at the judgement seat of Christ. They themselves are saved ‘but as by fire’.

My own personal view would be the second point. I don't believe the first point as 1 Cor 3:15 clearly states that for a true believer, even if their work is burned up (ie no fruit) they are still saved, but as one who just escapes through the fire. They are in Heaven, but they have no rewards. And one scripture never contradicts another. For me, the language of the verse makes it hard to believe point 3. I believe that Judas is given to us as an example of those who look very much like they are true followers of Christ, and in the vine, but they show by not abiding in Jesus that that is not the case. Jesus made it clear that Judas was not one of the ones whom He had kept safe and guarded (John 17:12, 13:18), and he wasn’t a true believer. He had different motives (as a lot of 'converts' do today) in following Jesus.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary says of this passage -

vs 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He cuts off. The phrase “in Me” does not mean the same thing as Paul’s words “in Christ.” Here it is part of the metaphor of the Vine and seems to mean, “every person who professes to be My disciple (a branch) is not necessarily a true follower.” A branch that bears no fruit is obviously dead. Therefore, like Judas, it is cut off.

Question 7: In the parable of the sower the last seed that is thrown on good soil, is that the only group that is saved?

I don't believe the primary purpose of the parable was to give a definition of who is saved. It was intended to show what leads to fruitfulness. Having said that, we can speculate of course and scripture certainly gives us clues. The first group, who had the word snatched away are said to have not come to salvation at all. (Luke 8:12) Of the second group, who 'believe' for a while, wouldn't be saved. They probably responded out of the wrong motives and when hardship comes they are out of there! I'll say more on this in the 'Hells best kept secret' question. The third group is where it gets trickier. In real life you can’t just fit everyone into a nice little box. For instance, this third group believed and started to grow. The thorns, which are the worries of this life, and other worldly things, slowly grew up and choked the fruitfulness of this plant. This is a slow process of choking. Would I say this group was saved? Yes and no. In real life this group would contain real believers I believe. All of us are in a battle to not allow the things of this world to choke our fruitfulness for God. I can definitely say that I battle with this all the time. Sometimes it has very little hold on me, and at others I find myself caring about the worries and pleasures of this world. That is why I said that the purpose of this parable is not really about who is and who isn't saved. It’s about what leads to fruitfulness for God's kingdom.

Question 8: What if a person continues to fail the test we are given?

Not quite sure which test you are talking about. Jesus spoke of knowing the wolves in sheep’s clothing by their fruit. Other passages, such as some of Paul’s letters tell us to discern the true from the false by what a person teaches. 1 John also gives a test of genuine believers (because there were many apostates around at that stage as well!) Obviously there should be outward signs of the new creation which true believers are in Christ. 1 John 3:10 speaks of love and righteousness as signs of true faith. He also shows that deserting the faith (completely) is a sign that they were never of the faith to begin with!

1 John 2:19 ‘They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.’

If a 'believer' continued to fail these tests I would agree with John that they hadn't been saved to begin with. But we should be careful not to shoot our own wounded!

Question 9: "Faith with out works is dead..." What is dead faith to someone who is saved?

By its very definition, someone who is saved cannot have 'dead faith'! If their faith has saved them then it is alive! James is speaking about mere belief (as indicated in verse 2:19), not a true saving faith. Someone may have a belief, or head knowledge that certain facts are true without giving themselves over to that belief. I may believe that a branch would hold me, but faith is walking out on the branch. In an extreme example, even Satanists may believe that Jesus is God, but they don't have any intention of submitting themselves to Him! A true faith submits itself to that belief and this will result in action down the track as James says. Abraham is the example of this used by both Paul and James. God spoke to Abraham and said that He would make Abraham’s descendants like the stars. From a natural point of view this was impossible as Sarah was well past the point of being able to bear a child. But Abraham place his faith in what God had said and this was accredited to him as righteousness. This is the part Paul emphasises the most. Salvation by grace, through faith and definitely not by works! James emphasises the second part of it in that Abraham, some time later, proved the validity of his faith by his willingness to offer his son Isaac up as a sacrifice. Works are the result of a genuine salvation, not the means of obtaining it.

Question 10: In "Hell's Best Kept Secret" by Ray Comfort he gives an illustration of a man on an airplane. The first man is told that if he puts on the parachute his ride would be better. After a while, when others are laughing and he realizes it doesn’t make it better at all, he takes it off. Does this mean someone can get saved then decide they don’t want to be saved?

Nope. I have enjoyed Ray Comforts books and I know that this is not what he is saying. He used this illustration to show the stupidity of our evangelistic methods. He is saying that we invite people to come to Jesus because it will make your life easy and so they do! Then when they find that it isn't easy they give up their belief! But what did they give up? Not a true faith but a ‘belief’ in a stupid gospel invitation that makes Jesus not to be Lord or Saviour but some kind of Father Christmas! They have placed their 'faith' in a much distorted truth that doesn't prove true. These 'converts' are the shallow soil converts spoken of in the parable of the sower. They are shallow because they have no conviction of sin, and no real awareness of their need of a saviour. They just 'try' Jesus just as easy as they would 'try' something else. When difficulty comes the shallowness of their root gives them away because they are not seen anymore. The focus of Ray Comforts books is to use the law in evangelism to convict the sinner of their sin. Once they see their sin, it doesn't take long for them to look for a saviour and true faith results! Even in 'Hells Best kept Secret', in a chapter called 'Who are the backsliders?', Ray Comfort writes

'A genuine conversion will stand no matter how great the adversity. "Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down" Psalm 37:24'

And to that quote I would add the rest of that verse, as it tells us why the true believer is never utterly cast down - "Because the Lord is the one who holds his hand."

I Gordon
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies/online/eternalsecurity2.htm

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oneinchrist
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Quote from Sister Carols post:
"Jesus is either able to keep us secure, or He isn’t"

This should never be a question in the mind of a Christian.......certainly He is able.

Jesus sounds off warnings in various places throughout the New testament. Is that not part of His intercessory work to keep us in fellowship with God?

Carol, please tell me..........Dont you think that if it were possible for a Christian to fall away that it would most likely be as a result of ignoring Jesus warnings to the church/disciples? and certainly not because Jesus does not have the ability to keep and protect us from Satan.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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barrykind
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Brother Daniel states & quoted Sister Carol:


quote:
Quote from Sister Carols post:
"Jesus is either able to keep us secure, or He isn’t"

This should never be a question in the mind of a Christian.......certainly He is able.

Jesus sounds off warnings in various places throughout the New testament. Is that not part of His intercessory work to keep us in fellowship with God?

Carol, please tell me..........Dont you think that if it were possible for a Christian to fall away that it would most likely be as a result of ignoring Jesus warnings to the church/disciples? and certainly not because Jesus does not have the ability to keep and protect us from Satan.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Absolutely my brother Daniel!


[thumbsup2]

[dance] [dance] [dance] [dance] [dance]
[hug]

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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

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Carol Swenson
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oneinchrist

quote:
Carol, please tell me..........Dont you think that if it were possible for a Christian to fall away that it would most likely be as a result of ignoring Jesus warnings to the church/disciples? and certainly not because Jesus does not have the ability to keep and protect us from Satan.
In part 2 of the OP, question 1 provides answers to falling away.

The beginning of the OP says

quote:
What it isn’t: Eternal security doesn’t mean that anyone who attends church, or brings their life into accord with Christian teaching, or goes forward at a salvation meeting is forever saved. It is important to mention that this whole study is concerning those that have been truly born again. Many profess Jesus Christ but have never been saved. This whole study is based on the promises and work of God for those that have truly entered into His family.
A person who is truly born again is indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ. It would be impossible for him to reject Christ.
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barrykind
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sister Carol states:

quote:
The beginning of the Op says


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What it isn’t: Eternal security doesn’t mean that anyone who attends church, or brings their life into accord with Christian teaching, or goes forward at a salvation meeting is forever saved. It is important to mention that this whole study is concerning those that have been truly born again. Many profess Jesus Christ but have never been saved. This whole study is based on the promises and work of God for those that have truly entered into His family.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A person who is truly born again is indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ. It would be impossible for him to reject Christ.

Also, in Part 2, please read Question 1 and its answers.

Esp. this part:


quote:
A person who is truly born again is indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ. It would be impossible for him to reject Christ
This part is NOT supporyted by scripture....The part where it states would be impossible to reject Christ...

The first part of the quote is true..not everyone who claims to be "born again" is born again!

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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

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Carol Swenson
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It doesn't say a person who claims to be...

It says a person who is TRULY born again.

How could the Holy Spirit of Christ reject Christ?


John 6:39-40 (NASB)
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

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barrykind
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Sister carol states"

quote:
It doesn't say a person who claims to be...

It says a person who is TRULY born again.

How could the Holy Spirit of Christ reject Christ?

You know after days and days of posts and hours and hours of debate...

A person can REJECT Christ and walk away from salvation.... Go Back and read the myriads of posts on OSAS.....

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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

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Carol Swenson
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Well, barry, maybe you can reject Christ. But the Spirit within you should be telling you otherwise.

What is the significance of the sealing of the Holy Spirit? For one thing, it speaks of a finished transaction. Even today, when important legal documents are processed, they are stamped with the official seal to signify the completion of the transaction. This sealing also implies ownership: God has put his seal on us because He has purchased us to be His own (1 Cor. 6:19-20). It also means security and protection. The Roman seal on the tomb of Jesus carried this meaning (Matt. 27:62-66). So, the believer belongs to God, and is safe and protected because he is a part of a finished transaction. According to John 14:16-17, the Holy Spirit abides with the believer forever. It is possible for us to grieve the Spirit and thereby lose the blessings of His ministry (Eph. 4:30). But He doesn’t leave us.

Another use for the seal is as a mark of authenticity. Just as a signature on a letter attests to the genuineness of the document, so the presence of the Spirit proves the believer is genuine. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His” (Rom. 8:9). It is not simply our lip profession, our religious activity, or our good works, but the witness of the Spirit that makes our profession authentic.

(Wiersbe)

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Carol Swenson
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I don't see "disinheritor of saints" on this list. Nothing can seperate us from the love of Christ. (Romans 8:38-39) That means nothing can.

Titles And Names Of Christ

Abraham’s Seed (Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:16).
Advocate (1 John 2:1).
Almighty (Revelation 1:8).
Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 22:13).
Amen (Revelation 3:14).
Angel (Genesis 48:16; Exodus 23:20,21).
Angel of God’s presence (Isaiah 63:9).
Angel of the Lord (Exodus 3:2; Judges 13:15-22).
Apostle (Hebrews 3:1).
Arm of the Lord (Isaiah 51:9; 53:1).
Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).
Author of eternal salvation (Hebrews 5:9).
Beginning of the creation of God (Revelation 3:14).
Beloved (Ephesians 1:6).
Beloved Son (Matthew 12:18).
Blessed and only Potentate (1 Timothy 6:15).
Branch (Jeremiah 23:5; Zechariah 3:8; 6:12).
Bread of Life (John 6:35, 48).
Bridegroom (Matthew 9:15).
Bright and Morning Star (Revelation 22:16).
Captain of Salvation (Hebrews 2:10).
Captain of the Lord’s hosts (Joshua 5:14,15).
Carpenter (Mark 6:3).
Carpenter’s Son (Matthew 13:55).
Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6).
Chief Shepherd (1 Peter 5:4).
Christ (Matthew 16:20; Mark 14:16; Luke 23:2).
Christ Jesus (Acts 19:4; Romans 3:24; 8:1; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1:30).
Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:39; 1 Timothy 1:12).
Christ of God (Luke 9:20).
Christ the Lord (Luke 2:11).
Commander (Isaiah 55:4).
Consolation of Israel (Luke 2:25).
Cornerstone (Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20).
Counselor (Isaiah 9:6).
Creator (John 1:3).
David (Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:23).
Dayspring (Luke 1:78).
Deliverer (Romans 11:26).
Desire of all nations (Haggai 2:7).
Door (John 10:7).
Elect of God (Isaiah 42:1).
Eternal life (1 John 1:2; 5:20).
Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6).
Faithful and True (Revelation 19:11).
Faithful witness (Revelation 1:5; 3:14).
First and Last (Revelation 1:17; 2:8).
Firstborn (Psalms 89:27; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 1:5).
Forerunner (Hebrews 6:20).
Fountain (Zechariah 13:1).
Glory of the Lord (Isaiah 40:5).
God (Isaiah 40:9; John 20:28).
God blessed forever (Romans 9:5).
God’s fellow (Zechariah 13:7).
Good Shepherd (John 10:14).
Governor (Matthew 2:6).
Great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14).
Head of the Church (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18).
Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2).
High Priest (Hebrews 4:14).
Holy Child (Acts 4:27).
Holy One (Psalms 16:10, with Acts 2:27; 3:14).
Holy One of God (Mark 1:24).
Holy One of Israel (Isaiah 41:14; 54:5).
Horn of salvation (Luke 1:69).
I AM, (Exodus 3:14, with John 8:58).
Image of God (2 Corinthians 4:4).
Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
Jesus (Matthew 1:21; 1 Thessalonians 1:10).
Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:1).
Jesus of Nazareth (Matthew 21:11; Mark 1:24; Luke 24:19).
Judge (Acts 10:42; 2 Timothy 4:8).
Judge of Israel (Micah 5:1).
Just One (Acts 7:52; 22:14).
King (Zechariah 9:9, with Matthew 21:5).
King of Glory (Psalms 24:7-10).
King of Israel (John 1:49).
King of Kings (1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 17:14).
King of peace (Hebrews 7:2).
King of righteousness (Hebrews 7:2).
King of Saints (Revelation 15:3).
King of Salem (Hebrews 7:1).
King of the Jews (Matthew 2:2; 27:37; John 19:19).
King of Zion (Matthew 21:25).
Lamb (Revelation 5:6, 12; 13:8; 21:22; 22:3).
Lamb of God (John 1:29, 36).
Lawgiver (Isaiah 33:22).
Leader (Isaiah 55:4).
Life (John 14:6; Colossians 3:4; 1 John 1:2).
Light of the world (John 1:8; 8:12).
Lily of the valleys (Song of Solomon 2:1).
Lion of the tribe of Judah (Revelation 5:5).
Living Bread (John 6:51).
Living Stone (1 Peter 2:4).
Lord and Savior (2 Peter 1:11; 3:18).
Lord Christ (Colossians 3:24).
Lord God Almighty (Revelation 15:3).
Lord God of the holy prophets (Revelation 22:6).
Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59; Colossians 3:17).
Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17; 16:31; 20:21).
Lord of all (Acts 10:36).
Lord of glory (1 Corinthians 2:8; James 2:1).
Lord of Hosts (Isaiah 44:6).
Lord of Lords (1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 17:14; 19:16).
Lord our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6; 33:16).
Man of Sorrows (Isaiah 53:3).
Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5).
Messenger of the covenant (Malachi 3:1).
Messiah (Daniel 9:25; John 1:41).
Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6).
Mighty One of Israel (Isaiah 30:29).
Mighty One of Jacob (Isaiah 49:26; 60:16).
Morningstar (Revelation 22:16; 2 Peter 1:19).
Most Holy (Daniel 9:24).
Nazarene (Matthew 2:23).
Offspring of David (Revelation 22:16).
Only Begotten Son (John 1:18).
Only Begotten (John 1:14).
Our Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7).
Potentate (1 Timothy 6:15).
Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).
Prince (Acts 5:31).
Prince of life (Acts 3:15).
Prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6).
Prince of the kings of the earth (Revelation 1:5).
Prophet (Matthew 21:11; Luke 24:19; John 7:40).
Rabbi (John 1:49).
Rabboni (John 20:16).
Ransom (1 Timothy 2:6).
Redeemer (Job 19:25; Isaiah 59:20; Isaiah 60:16).
Resurrection and life (John 11:25).
Rock (1 Corinthians 10:4).
Rock of Offence (1 Peter 2:8).
Root of David (Revelation 5:5; 22:16).
Root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:10).
Rose of Sharon (Song of Solomon 2:1).
Ruler of Israel (Micah 5:2).
Savior (Luke 2:11; 2 Peter 2:20; 3:18).
Savior of the Body (Ephesians 5:23).
Sceptre (Numbers 24:17).
Second Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45).
Second Man (1 Corinthians 15:47).
Seed of David (2 Timothy 2:8).
Seed of woman (Genesis 3:15).
Servant (Isaiah 42:1; 52:13; 53:11; Acts 4:30).
Servant of Rulers (Isaiah 49:7).
Shepherd (Mark 14:27).
Shepherd and Overseer of Souls (1 Peter 2:25).
Shepherd of Israel (Psalms 80:1).
Shiloh (Genesis 49:10).
Son of David (Matthew 9:27).
Son of God (Luke 1:35; John 1:49).
Son of Joseph (John 6:42).
Son of man (John 5:27).
Son of the Blessed (Mark 14:61).
Son of the Father (2 John 1:3).
Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32).
Star (Numbers 24:17).
Stone of Stumbling (1 Peter 2:8).
Sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2).
Sure Foundation (Isaiah 28:16).
Surety (Hebrews 7:22).
Teacher (Matthew 23:8; John 3:2).
Tender Plant (Isaiah 53:2).
True God (1 John 5:20).
True Light (John 1:9).
True Vine (John 15:1).
Truth (John 14:6).
Vine (John 15:1).
Way (John 14:6).
Wisdom (Proverbs 8:12).
Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).
Witness (Isaiah 55:4; Revelation 1:5).
Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6).
Word (John 1:1; 1 John 5:7).
Word of God (Revelation 19:13).
Word of Life (1 John 1:1).

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oneinchrist
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Sister Carols post stated:

"But He doesnt leave us"

My question:But isnt it true that the scriptures show that we can leave Him?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end,

Sister Carol, if it is not possible for us to depart from the faith...........how then would you interpret the above verses?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Sister Carols post stated:

"But He doesnt leave us"

My question:But isnt it true that the scriptures show that we can leave Him?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end,

Sister Carol, if it is not possible for us to depart from the faith...........how then would you interpret the above verses?

With love in Christ, Daniel

One more time for U and berry...

Hebrews 10:23-29

Introduction

Hebrews chapter 10 is in many cases a battlefield for the believers. You choose your side and prepare to battle. Someone gives you your ammunition ahead of time so that you don’t have to think much on your own or consider all of the options.

As you are standing on your interpretation someone from the other side fires a shot and puts a hole in your doctrine. What to do now? Do you throw out everything? Probably not….many times it is God himself firing a shot to help you get Bible Doctrine instead of yours. In this study we will TRY to look at this openly.


If salvation can be lost then it was never based on a finished work. Jesus Christ said “It is Finished”. If your salvation is not finished then it is not based on the redeeming work of Christ.

The book of Hebrews was written by Paul and if he wrote in Hebrews that you could lose your salvation then he has brought a curse on himself (Galatians1:9), because he writes all through his epistles about eternal life.

The verses state that if a willful sin is committed by these people that there is no more sacrifice for sins. If this is a saved person then it sounds like the wilfull sins will not be paid for and will be accounted for at the Judgment Seat of Christ. No forgiveness is available between here and there.

Sounds like in verse 29 that this person was sanctified and now they are in danger of judgment.
before we get into the passage let us look at several introductory remarks.

Who Was It Written To

The title of the book says “The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews”. Hebrews1:1 talks about God speaking to the fathers by the prophets, who had fathers and prophets? Hebrews chapter 3 spends time dealing with the fact that Christ is better than Moses. Hebrews chapter 7 talks about the fact that Christ was of a better priestly line than the Levites. Chapters 8 and 9 of Hebrews deal with a better covenant. Hebrews chapter 11 deals with the faith of people who are all a part of the history of Israel.

from the evidence above, we would have to say that this book was written to the Jewish people. This does not mean that we should discard the book of Hebrews or any other Jewish epistles. The book is not written to us, but it is written for us (2 Timothy 3:16).

What Was the Purpose of the Letter?

The book of Hebrews contains the word “better” thirteen times. Christ is better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4), he brought in a better hope than the law (Hebrews 7:19), he was made surety of a better testament (Hebrews 7:22), he is the mediator of a better covenant (Hebrews 8:6), and he was a better sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23).

The book of Hebrews was written to the Jewish people in order to prove that Jesus Christ was “better” than Judaism.

The Time

In order to rightly divide the word of God, we must consider several things. When was the book written, who was it written to, and what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written? We have already discussed who the book was written to, but let us now look at when it was written.

The book of Hebrews was written nearly 30 years after the death of Christ. The temple was still standing and in operation (Hebrews 13:10-11). Jewish people were persecuted when they accepted Christ (Hebrews 10:32), for many Jews were still zealous over the law (Acts 21:20). Many Jewish people were still living under the banner of Judaism and to accept Christ was to reject Judaism.

The Passage

Now we will look at the question, “what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written?”

Verse 23

In verse 23, the Apostle Paul says, “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)”. First notice the word “profession”. A profession is not always true (Romans 1:22). Salvation is not based on our profession, but rather on a belief with the heart and confession of the mouth (Romans 10:9-10). Confession is agreeing with God, for example, when you confess your sins you are agreeing with God against your sins. The Apostle Paul warns the Hebrews not to waver from their profession.

Verses 24-25

These verses were written to exhort the Hebrews to meet together for worship and provoke one another to good works. The early church met often, and one reason was probably to strengthen and encourage each other in times of persecution.

Verses 26-27

Here we have one of the favorite verses of the Armenians, but remember the context of the book of Hebrews. Paul writes, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

Notice three things about this passage.

The sin was done on purpose (willfully). One point to make here is that if this is loss of salvation then we’ve all lost it. You say well I haven’t murdered anyone or committed adultery, but that is not what the verse says. The verse says willful sin. That is anything done knowingly that was unrighteous. Have you lied lately? Probably just a white lie….Have you not done something this week that you knew you should have done (James 4:17)
This person has received the knowledge of the truth.
If this proves that these people were saved then we have some problems.
Were all of the religious leaders saved? According to John 3:2 they knew that Jesus came from God. They had received the knowledge of the truth, but they didn’t all get saved.
The devils time and time again called Jesus the Son of God. Were they saved? No, but they sure did have knowledge of the truth.
So we see that knowledge of the truth in itself merits nothing, but faith in a person is what receives salvation.
After this sin there is no more sacrifice for sin. Keep in mind this is written to the Jewish people. What sin is it when done on purpose, allows no more sacrifice for sins?
Let us look at a scenario. A Jewish boy is born about the time of Christ’s death. He was raised to go to Jerusalem three times a year to appear before the Lord (Exodus 23:14,17; Deuteronomy 16:16). He went through all of the ceremonies and went to the schools of the Hebrews. He was taught to look for the coming of the Messiah, that He would come as a King to deliver His people. Then at about the age of 30, this young man hears a message preached that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that He died for the sins of the whole world. This young man learns more and more about the life of Christ, and begins to compare it with the law and the prophets. God opens his eyes to the fact that Christ was in fact the Messiah and that he must receive Christ by faith. Up to this point he like the apostle Paul has been zealous for God in the law, but now he has “received the knowledge of the truth”. If he receives Christ, then he will be persecuted greatly and his family will probably have a funeral for him and count him as dead. The fear of persecution drives him to “wilfully” reject Christ and return to Judaism. God says to this young man, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”. A spotless lamb or any other sacrifice will no longer hold off the wrath of God, the young man has seen God’s sacrifice. This young man will die and face judgment and fiery indignation, because he rejects God’s sacrifice.

Rejecting Christ is the only sin in this age that will send a man to hell.

Verses 28-29

In verses 28 and 29 Paul writes, “He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” Under the law, the punishment of sin against the commandments in many cases meant death. All it took was the witness of two or three.

According to Hebrews, God hath in these last days spoken unto us by His son. God has three witnesses (1 John 5:7-8). The “sorer punishment” will be poured out on those who “wilfully” reject the Son of God.

Notice in verse 28 that this person has “trodden under foot” the Son of God. When Moses told the children of Israel to put the blood on the side posts and lintel, he said nothing of putting the blood on the floor. In a sense those people were spared by going into the house through or under the blood. To be saved we must go through or under the blood, but this man has lowered the blood and has “trodden under foot”.

Notice next the phrase “wherewith he was sanctified”. The word “sanctified” means to be set apart in holiness. If the word “sanctified” simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture. Remember that the idea of Hebrews is that Jesus Christ is better. Some would say that the person sanctified is the same person who has counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, but look again. Jesus Christ’s blood sanctified himself. The blood set Him apart from bulls, goats, and all other blood either before or after.

Next notice the phrase “despite unto the Spirit of grace.” What this person has done has insulted the spirit of grace. We are saved by grace, and when someone turns from the free offer of salvation to Judaism or any other religion it is a disgrace to the spirit of grace.

Conclusion

In closing we will add evidence that Paul is not talking about the believers backsliding and losing their salvation. In verse 39 Paul says, “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Paul says I’m not talking about us because we have believed to the saving of our soul. These difficult verses when taken in context make more sense and prove once again that the book of Hebrews is about the fact that Jesus Christ is better.

(Forwarded from Ray, Andrew)

--------------------
That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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Don't call me Sister Carol. It makes me sound like a nun.

oneinChrist, do you want to leave Him?

quote:
Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.

Does an evil heart of unbelief sound like a true believer to you?

All this talk of rejecting Him and leaving Him is making me wonder if He is really in the hearts of people who say such things. I mean, if your heart is truly full of Christ, not rules and fears and warnings, but Christ, then you would not say a true believer could ever reject Him or leave Him. You would know it isn't possible.

Hebrews 3

When a person has an erring heart and a disbelieving heart, the result will also be a hard heart. This is a heart that is insensitive to the Word and work of God. So hard was the heart of Israel that the people even wanted to return to Egypt! Imagine wanting to exchange their freedom under God for slavery in Egypt! Of course, all this history spoke to the hearts of the readers of this letter [Hebrews] because they were in danger of “going back” themselves.

God’s judgment fell on Israel in the wilderness at Kadesh Barnea. That entire generation was condemned to die, and only the new generation would enter the land. God said, “They shall not enter into My rest” (Heb. 3:11). But what message does this bring to a believer today? No believer today, Jew or Gentile, could go back into the Mosaic legal system since the temple is gone and there is no priesthood.

But every believer is tempted to give up his confession of Christ and go back into the world system’s life of compromise and bondage. This is especially true during times of persecution and suffering. The fires of persecution have always purified the church because suffering separates true believers from the counterfeit. True believers are willing to suffer for Christ and they hold firmly to their convictions and their confession of faith (see Heb. 3:6, 14). We are not saved by holding to our confession. The fact that we hold to our confession is proof that we are God’s true children.

(Wiersbe)

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oneinchrist
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Hello again Carol,
I have told you in an earlier post that I have no plans to leave the faith.

Your answer to my question:
"True believers are willing to suffer for Christ and they hold firmly to their convictions and their confession of faith."

Now I would like to go back to Hebrews 3 and see if I can make reasonable application with your answer..............

First of all,I am having a difficult time understanding why the author of Hebrews would use the word BRETHREN in verse 12 if it he is not assumably speaking with true believers(real converts).

12 Beware, BRETHREN, lest there be in you.....

If your(not yours yours, but the author of your post) above statement is 100% true, why would the author of Hebrews waste his time warning the BRETHREN (true believers) of rebelling against God and the deceitfullness of sin?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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barrykind
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Carol states:

quote:
Well, barry, maybe you can reject Christ.


Yes i could if did not walk in the spirit and continued in the flesh...yes its possible..

Now your starting to see my point, anyone who does not "endure" to the end can "fall away".

Charles Stanley's principal is that...If one came to your home and called you outside, and stated:

"Deny Yahushua [Jesus the Christ] right now or were going to chop off your head, Stanley's teaching is "even if you deny" your going to heaven..if youve previously ben born again..LIES Carol it lies!

You know the scripture, if you deny me before men, HE will deny you before the Father!

Simple....Talking about leaving HIS [Jesus] Yahushua, does not mean Brother Daniel, nor myself, Brother Dale nor anyone else is contemplating leaving the Messiah..How ABSURD!

Its a warning Carol, to all those who teach, and those that do not teach OSAS>>>>> Walk as HE walked, walk in the Spirit, walk not in the Flesh!

the bilbe warns you Mam!.....You that teach OSAS, are in grave error and can teach a FALSE SECURITY!

You know how se defend Eternal Security, by the scripture, noman can pluck you out of His hand, no devil...BUT YOUR STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!

Im not trying to offend, im trying to help you see the truth here in scripture...


[hug]

--------------------
The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

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Betty Louise
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So you are saying that God is a liar. If He were to tell a person who had been saved that He never knew them, God would be a liar.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Bloodbought
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quote:
You know how se defend Eternal Security, by the scripture, noman can pluck you out of His hand, no devil...BUT YOUR STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!

If you are truly saved nothing can separate you from the love of God, not even your “STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!”
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Carol Swenson
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oninchrist

As you read this you will see that the author of Hebrews was speaking to a congregation.

Hebrews 3:12 (NASB)
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

He called the group brethren, and warns that among them there may be someone who is not a true believer.

The writer warned these Hebrew believers against going back to Judaism. This entire letter to the Hebrews focuses on the superiority of Jesus Christ over everything in Judaism because nothing in Judaism can provide ultimate salvation and eternal rest.

barrykind,

quote:
Yes i could if did not walk in the spirit and continued in the flesh...yes its possible..


WHY do you walk in the Spirit barrykind?

quote:
You know how se defend Eternal Security, by the scripture, noman can pluck you out of His hand, no devil...BUT YOUR STINKING EVIL FLESH< can cause you to FALL AWAY, and BE ETERNALLY DAM*NED!
You want to yell? I can yell too. YOU ARE NOT SAVED BY YOUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, BUT BY HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HIS GRACE!!!

Matthew 6:33 does NOT say, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and OUR righteousness..." Rather, the Bible says ... seek HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. We are to seek Jesus' righteousness. 2nd Corinthians 5:21 states, "For he (God the Father) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." This speaks of Christ's imputed righteousness (i.e., our sins are placed upon Christ's record, and His righteousness is placed upon our record). We are JUSTIFIED in the eyes of God. The blood of Jesus takes our sins away forever (1st Peter 1:18,19). This is true righteousness, and it is found ONLY in Christ Jesus. We are commanded to seek HIS righteousness if we want to obtain the Kingdom of God. "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption" (1st Corinthians 1:30).

Grace is UNDESERVED pardon.

Am I saying we can sin like crazy? NO. Our Lord said He will DISCIPLINE those He loves. Do you doubt Him? I don't.

For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives. (Hebrews 12:6).

Does a born again Christian WANT to sin like crazy? NO. He is a new creation in Christ. But he can be tempted and vexed by demons, and subjected to Satan's fiery darts.

Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. (Ephesians 6:11)

quote:
Simple....Talking about leaving HIS [Jesus] Yahushua, does not mean Brother Daniel, nor myself, Brother Dale nor anyone else is contemplating leaving the Messiah..How ABSURD!


You think it's absurd if I wonder why believers talk about rejecting Christ and leaving Him? I think it's absurd that believers would even think such things, let alone talk about them, when their hearts should be filled with the love of Christ and the fruit of the Holy Spirit. If you think it's absurd to ask you that, then you should realize it's absurd for you to suggest it about others as well.

You are saved by HIS righteousness and HIS grace. He is the One who disciplines you. He is the One who sanctifies you. He is the One who works good works through you. He is the author and finisher of your faith. He is the Savior. NOT YOU.

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Betty Louise
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You walk in the Spirit because at the moment you get saved, the Holy Spirit comes to live in your heart. This said, you may stray from God, but you will not give up your salvation.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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oneinchrist
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Hi Betty,
You said:
"This said, you may stray from God, but you will not give up your salvation"

Do you go as far as to say that we can willfully commit sin(that we know is clearly against Gods will) and willfully refuse to confess it/repent of it............and still be forgiven for the same?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Bloodbought
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quote:
The writer warned these Hebrew believers against going back to Judaism. How could that be considered “turning away from the living God” when Judaism worships the same God? This entire letter to the Hebrews focuses on the superiority of Jesus Christ over everything in Judaism because nothing in Judaism can provide ultimate salvation and eternal rest.
Yes, these Hebrews were at a crossroads, the writer warned them that if the Lord would not permit them to go on to perfection in Christ, they would fall away and could not be renewed again to repentance.
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Betty Louise
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Daniel,

Going by your beliefs, a Christian could commit a sin and not realize it get killed in accident and go to hell.
God will discipline a Christian who has unrepented sin but God does not kick His children out of His family.

betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
The writer warned these Hebrew believers against going back to Judaism. How could that be considered “turning away from the living God” when Judaism worships the same God? This entire letter to the Hebrews focuses on the superiority of Jesus Christ over everything in Judaism because nothing in Judaism can provide ultimate salvation and eternal rest.
Yes, these Hebrews were at a crossroads, the writer warned them that if the Lord would not permit them to go on to perfection in Christ, they would fall away and could not be renewed again to repentance.
Bloodbought, I don't understand what you mean here when you say "if the Lord would not permit them." God is not willing that any should perish.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Bloodbought, I don't understand what you mean here when you say "if the Lord would not permit them."

Hebrews 6 (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Read the two bolded parts together.

God is sovereign. He has mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom he will He hardeneth.

quote:
God is not willing that any should perish.

He is not willing that any of His elect should perish. All of the others will perish because of their rebellion.
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oneinchrist
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Hello again Betty,
In your response to my post you said:
"Going by your beliefs, a Christian could commit a sin and not realize it get killed in accident and go to hell".

You have certainly misunderstood my post. I did not make reference to a Christian who committed sin WITHOUT REALIZING IT. I made reference to a Christian who KNOWINGLY sinned against God and KNOWINGLY refused to repent.

Do you believe that God forgives a man who knows his sin and refuses to repent?

By the way, just as a sidenote......I know a man(who was at one time in the past a converted Christian) who is in this circumstance. He has left his wife and gone into an adulterous relationship with a woman half his age. He is with her to this day living in fornication. He has so lifted up in pride that he refuses to repent. Should we assume that he is already forgiven too?, assuming that he was a genuine conversion way back when.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Betty Louise
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Daniel,

Even in the circumstances you described, I do not believe that person has lost his salvation. I believe that God will discipline that person until he repents. I believe that there will be tears in Heaven when we stand before God and are judged for our sins that are not repented of. A smart Christian ask for forgiveness ever day because they do not want to be standing before God in such a state. Your friend is not getting away with his sins. You probably do not know how he is suffering personally for his refusal to admit his sin and seek for forgiveness.

My niece moved in with a non Christian without marriage and had a baby. It took two years of God moving in their lives and now her husband is saved and they got married because God convicted them of their sins. We do not always see the work God is doing in others.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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barrykind
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o no Carol i wasnt yelling, making infaces..sorry

[hug]

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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

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oneinchrist
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Hi again Betty,
Whether someone has backslidden or fallen away I do not know, and I will not pretend to be God...........but the thing that I do know is that whether or not someone has backslidden or fallen away, he/she can once again be restored to God through repentance and Gods forgiveness.

I am not here trying to cause doubt and fear. I think that our motive should be to come alongside the sinning brother/sister and humbly try and encourage them to be restored to fellowship with God whether they are fallen away or backslidden. This is best done in a spirit of love and a gentle reminder of Gods past track record of goodness in their life.
Thank you for the fellowship Betty. I like your sincerity and I do believe you love the Lord. I do not want to be one to come and make anyone doubt their relationship with God. I would rather be here to encourage more confidence in God and more dependence on His strength.
I do believe that a person can fall away........but only by a continuous and purposeful neglect of Gods warning after warning. Once again, I think the knowledge that one can fall away is useless without a heart desire to see such a one restored to God.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Don't call me Sister Carol. It makes me sound like a nun.


Wait. Let me find a chalk board. LOL Sister Carol.

EEEEECCCCHHHHH.


Boy some peoples kids....

No ones my brother till they have Christ's BLOOD in them(communion) thru them(His Word) By Him(New Birth By the Spirit Person God)

my order of events may not be correct, please modify as directed BigC.

Se Ya on the other side.

Keep the Faith.

[rapture]

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That is all.....

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Betty,
Whether someone has backslidden or fallen away I do not know, and I will not pretend to be God...........but the thing that I do know is that whether or not someone has backslidden or fallen away, he/she can once again be restored to God through repentance and Gods forgiveness.

I am not here trying to cause doubt and fear. I think that our motive should be to come alongside the sinning brother/sister and humbly try and encourage them to be restored to fellowship with God whether they are fallen away or backslidden. This is best done in a spirit of love and a gentle reminder of Gods past track record of goodness in their life.
Thank you for the fellowship Betty. I like your sincerity and I do believe you love the Lord. I do not want to be one to come and make anyone doubt their relationship with God. I would rather be here to encourage more confidence in God and more dependence on His strength.
I do believe that a person can fall away........but only by a continuous and purposeful neglect of Gods warning after warning. Once again, I think the knowledge that one can fall away is useless without a heart desire to see such a one restored to God.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Luv Ya Brother.

But do u ever listen 2 yourself?

"I think" "I think" "I think "

Dude Dont U no?

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That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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The sinking Peter was not saved by holding on, but our Lord reached out and caught him.

O you of little faith, why did you doubt? (Matt. 14:29-31).

Great read here:

Is my salvation in Christ secure, or can I lose my salvation?

http://www.backtothebible.org/index.php/Q-Is-my-salvation-in-Christ-secure-or-can-I-lose-my-salvation.html

Speaking of Peter...

quote:
"Deny Yahushua [Jesus the Christ] right now or were going to chop off your head, Stanley's teaching is "even if you deny" your going to heaven..if youve previously ben born again..LIES Carol it lies!


Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." (Matthew 26:34)

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail ; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers." (Luke 22:31-32)

He knew Peter would fail. He also knew that failure was not Peter's whole story.

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Bloodbought
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Why so many think they can repent and accept Christ today and receive eternal life and walk away from His salvation tomorrow I don’t know. Salvation is not offered on the basis of what we do, or fail to do, because it’s not of works. Salvation is offered on the basis of what Christ has done on the cross. He said, “It is finished.” There is nothing more to be done. We don’t need to focus on how good we can be, because no matter how good we try to be, we are never good enough. Instead we should focus on how vile we are and realise our hopeless condition before God and realise that apart from His mercy we are headed for hell fire. We must accept His mercy and by accepting Christ, we are accepting His mercy. When we accept His mercy our sins past present and future are cast into the sea of His forgetfulness.

The next time we sin, is He going to retrieve our sins again and put them back to our account and set us back on the broad road? No, our sins are blotted out by the application of the blood, never to be remembered against us any more. Our sins have no more dominion over us, because they are gone forever. When we fail, the blood cleanses and keeps on cleansing, and Christ is seated at the Father’s right hand interceding on our behalf, until He presents us faultless before His throne. He is a faithful High Priest that we can depend on.

God bless.

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Betty Louise
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Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Bloodbrought,

Reading your post I thought of these verses. If as Parents, our children disappoint us we do not say that they are no longer our children. We do not stop loving them. When we become God's children, he does not forget we are His children because we sin. Sin has consequences. We reap what we sow and sometimes it is hard sowing those crops, but we are still the children of God.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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oneinchrist
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Hi Brother Bloodbought,

You said:
"Why so many think they can repent and accept Christ today and receive eternal life and walk away from His salvation tomorrow I don’t know."

In the bible we see the term/sayings "falling away", "departing from the living God", "apostacy". I do not see the saying "walk away", although Jesus does use the words "go away" when He says to His disciples........"Do you also want to go away?" in John 6:67.

Vines Concise Dictionary
Fall away: In 2 Thess. 2:3 "the falling away" signifies apostacy from the faith.

Wycliffe Bible Dictionary
Apostacy: "a falling away or defection from the faith"

These are biblical concepts which some people (for whatever reasons) just flat out reject.

You said:
"Salvation is not offered on the basis of what we do, or fail to do, because it’s not of works. Salvation is offered on the basis of what Christ has done on the cross."

I think most people would agree with you here.

You said:
"Instead we should focus on how vile we are and realise our hopeless condition before God and realise that apart from His mercy we are headed for hell fire."

I do not agree that we(Christians) should be focusing on how vile we are..........I believe that we should be focusing on how Jesus has the power to change us and make us fit to come into Gods presence. Not to say that we are not vile before we come to Jesus.......but that....our present day focus, in Christ, is better off concentrated on our transformation.

You said:
"The next time we sin, is He going to retrieve our sins again and put them back to our account and set us back on the broad road? No, our sins are blotted out by the application of the blood, never to be remembered against us any more."

The Bible says "IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is not questioning the power of the blood. It is Gods condition on our ability to gain access to the saving power of the blood.
In Revelation, Jesus gives warnings to the seven churches and He calls them to repent of specific sins. We do not say that they were already forgiven and cleansed by the blood even before they repented. It wouldnt be any different for us.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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oneinchrist
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Brother B,
I am not offended when I see the word "we" in other peoples posts. If I dont agree with what comes after the "we"........then I might post a rebuttal. Would you please post your rebuttal. I do not think you would have been so offended by the "we" unless there was something else that you disagreed with???or do you just get offended at all the "we's" on everyones posts....or just my "we's" only??

With love in Christ, Daniel

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Brother B,
I am not offended when I see the word "we" in other peoples posts. If I dont agree with what comes after the "we"........then I might post a rebuttal. Would you please post your rebuttal. I do not think you would have been so offended by the "we" unless there was something else that you disagreed with???or do you just get offended at all the "we's" on everyones posts....or just my "we's" only??

With love in Christ, Daniel

Not U me.

Military training leftovers.

One was never aloud to included a "we" unless on the same mission.

U along with 2 others have voiced your opinion on my training by Christ with my call/orders from above.

--------------------
That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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oneinChrist

quote:
These are biblical concepts which some people (for whatever reasons) just flat out reject.


What "some people (for whatever reasons) just flat out reject" is the belief that those who left Christ were actually born again. He knows who will truly believe and who will not, and He does not save pretenders. They don't lose their salvation - they never had it to begin with.

John 6:61-69 (NLT)

Jesus was aware that his disciples were complaining, so he said to them, “Does this offend you? Then what will you think if you see the Son of Man ascend to heaven again? The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.) Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”

At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him. Then Jesus turned to the Twelve and asked, “Are you also going to leave?”

Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. We believe, and we know you are the Holy One of God.”

Disciples are students, not necessarily believers. A lot of people who go to church are disciples, but they don't truly believe. True believers know Him, not just about Him.

Here is a biblical concept which some people (for whatever reason) just flat out reject:

“He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.” (Hebrews 7:25)

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oneinchrist
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Hi Carol,
The bible uses the words "born again" and the bible uses the words "falling away/apostacy. Would you be willing to look up both topics and post what you find on both of them.

Once again, my postion on this subject is that if it were not possible to "fall away" or "defect from the faith" that God makes us love Him vs. giving us the freedom to express our love towards Him in return for His love towards us.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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becauseHElives
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I Jn 1:5-1:7 "IF" we sin I Jn 2:1 ....

To need an "Advocate" is proof I Jn 2:1 that our sins were not "paid" for Past, Present, and Future.

If that were so, we would not need an Advocate with the Father...

this one fact makes Eternal Security teaching a lie!

sin committed after one comes to Yahshua are cleansed on the condition that those who continue in Grace walk in continually repentance!

unconfessed sin will separate you from the love of Yahweh.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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God knew everything we would ever do before we were even born!

We need an advocate in Heaven, because Satan accuses us before God day and night (Rev. 12:10). Satan would like to put a mark against the Christian when he sins. If he could do this, every Christian would be barred from Heaven, because none is perfect. But, thank God, the Lord Jesus Christ is the author of Eternal Salvation. He not only died upon the cross to save us, but He lives as our Advocate in Heaven to intercede on our behalf; therefore, "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?" (Rom. 8: 33). "If any man sin, we have an Advocate." Notice, it does not say if any man confesses his sin we have an Advocate but, "If any man sin." The moment a Christian sins Christ his Advocate pleads his cause, so that no charge can be laid against him in Heaven. Sin, however, does affect his fellowship with God the Father, (but not his relationship as a child of God), and must be confessed. Otherwise he will be chastised.

quote:
sin committed after one comes to Yahshua are cleansed on the condition that those who continue in Grace walk in continually repentance!


Agreed. We are washed completely, but we need to wash our feet often. (John 13)

quote:
unconfessed sin will separate you from the love of Yahweh.


NOTHING can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

But unconfessed sin will keep us from fellowship with God.

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Carol,
The bible uses the words "born again" and the bible uses the words "falling away/apostacy. Would you be willing to look up both topics and post what you find on both of them.

Once again, my postion on this subject is that if it were not possible to "fall away" or "defect from the faith" that God makes us love Him vs. giving us the freedom to express our love towards Him in return for His love towards us.

With love in Christ, Daniel

"For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live unto God. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me ; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." (Galatians 2:19-20).

You can look up those topics if you want to. IMHO it is more important to understand that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ, and He lives in us. To say we are free to defect from the faith, to turn away from Him, is like saying we are free to eat decomposed garbage. Who would want to?

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becauseHElives
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Carol I can not believe your total disregard for the context of 1st John......

1 John 1

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


there is a very clear condition on Eternal Life.... if you confess your sin .....if, if, if, if, if, if.....he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


verse 2 tell us clearly what eternal life is.....it is Yahshua....

Yahweh does not remove our free will when anyone except His Grace, a believer still has choices to make.....

the if's in that small amount of scripture is overwhelming and you just totally disregard it...

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
there is a very clear condition on Eternal Life.... if you confess your sin .....if, if, if, if, if, if.....he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

You're the one disregarding scripture.

Yes there is a condition to Eternal Life. We must be born again.

But when did I ever say we don't need to confess our sins?

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becauseHElives
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you are still avoiding the fact that the sin in question is only forgiven in response to and subject to confessing that sin...

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
you are still avoiding the fact that the sin in question is only forgiven in response to and subject to confessing that sin...

Looks like you are being taken in your own craftiness again.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

What if certain parts of my flea-shin vessel fail to where I could not work Grace as you say?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

VIVA LA RAPTURE!


[rapture]

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That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
you are still avoiding the fact that the sin in question is only forgiven in response to and subject to confessing that sin...

and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness...

If we have been cleansed from all unrighteousness, then do we WANT to sin? Think about it. Cleansed from all unrighteousness. I'll give you a hint...

NO

So if that person does sin, because none of us is perfect, he's going to feel terrible. Defiled. Of course he will confess to God and ask not only to be forgiven, but also to be strengthened so he will not make that mistake again.

YES?

Otherwise he will be chastised until he does repent.

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becauseHElives
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. I look at it like this. If you've ever been a tenant somewhere and had a lease, you know sometimes the top of the lease is in bold black ink and usually says something like: I (your name) hereby enters into a contractual agreement with (Realtor) to lease the building/apartment at (location) for a fee of $_____ per month.

Below these opening lines there is usually a list of 20 or more bullet points of fine print, listing the conditions of your tenancy. Such as:
*Loud music will not be played past 10:00pm or before 9:00am
*Animals are not allowed in this apartment complex
*Garbage will not be thrown from windows or placed in hallways
*Smoking is prohibited in hallways and lobby
*Drinking alcoholic beverages is prohibited in hallways and lobby
*Alteration of landscape is prohibited except by written consent from (Realtor)
*etc etc etc

It usually ends with something like
*Violation of these terms and conditions will be grounds for the termination of your lease agreement.

The OSAS crowd most of the time only looks at the top of the 'lease agreement' to salvation, and screams "Jesus made my payment, I have the right to live here no matter what!" Or in other words "I accepted Christ, and I'm saved no matter what!". Never....I mean NEVER do they read the terms and conditions of their 'tenancy'. I will even say, in my experience, most of them don't know the fine print even exists. For if they did, they would not believe in the heresy.

I would strongly urge you to reject this doctrine of devils; it leads to a path of destruction, and gives people every excuse in the book to be despicable, apathetic human beings.


The proof that having to emulate Jesus didn't end after the crucifixion and mid-acts dispensationalism is mostly incorrect, and the verses I am posting come from the apostles long after the crucifixion and even Paul himself.

Which kind of people would you rather have?

Which would you rather trust if you had to?

A Christian who believes you have to follow Christ, and obey His commandments, try to be perfect, overcome through Him, and live a holy life?

Or a 'Christian' who believes that they can be as sinful as they want, and it will never make a difference on their soul, everything is ok, don't have to try to BE or DO anything...don't have to give, or care, or have charity, or the fruits of the spirit, nothing.

I think there's no doubt about it, I would go with a REAL Christian any day.

please give close attention to the following scriptures.....

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

OSAS turns the grace of God into lasciviousness and says you can do anything you want, cause you can't lose your salvation.

1st John 3:15 says that "if you hate your 'brother' you're a murderer and no murderer hath eternal life"

Gal 5:19-21 covers adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, HATRED, variance, emulations, WRATH, STRIFE, seditions, heresies, drunkenness, envyings, murders, and revellings...and says such a person living after flesh and not the Spirit has NO inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1st Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1st Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Some people want to interpret this as Paul as saying that if he 'fails the test' he would merely be getting fewer rewards. Do we have scriptural support to prove that those who actually fail will indeed end up straggling into the kingdom? Hopefully this section will prove otherwise.

2nd Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.

Apparently, Paul and others were working to be accepted by God. Some people want to say that the acceptance in this verse only means "to be pleasing", but lets look at what other scriptures have to say about this...


Now John 15:6-10 says IF you keep his commandments you will abide in Him, if you don't, you will be cast forth as a withered branch and burned. But are you still considered one of His as a withered and burning branch?

Rom 8:9 tells us if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Matthew 12:50, Luke 8:21, John 8:31-32, Luke 6:35, James 2:5, 1st John 1:7, and 2:6 ALL put stipulations of DOING things in order to remain in Him as one of His. Titus 1:16 even tells us you can deny Him by your works, and Titus 2:11-14 tells us Christ wants a people who do good works.

Clearly the conclusion is that Jesus has specific requirements of us as Christians, and that we must meet these requirements to remain in Him, for if we don't, it won't merely be receiving fewer rewards in the kingdom, showing that 2 Cor 5:9 is literally talking about acceptance, not just getting fewer rewards, once again demolishing OSAS.

So you ask..."What about being saved by grace? Aren't we all just saved by grace, and not by our works, hence we can't do any works to lose our salvation?"

Well friends, that's a good question, and there is a little known verse that explains the whole "saved by grace" stuff that OSASers spew like there's no tomorrow.

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

As we can all see, this is the grace that saves, it teaches people to be righteous and godly, so if you're claiming to be saved by grace, and yet you're living like the heathen world, then I would seriously question your salvation.

Further support for this is found in Matt 10:33 and Luke 12:9 where Jesus said "if you deny me before man, I will deny you before the Father."
Then we find in Titus that a person can be a denier of God, by their very works.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in WORKS they DENY Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good WORK reprobate.

So now you ask "What about God's grace? Surely His grace can keep you saved."

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled.

The context of this is found in the following verses relating to Esau. The author explains the danger of immorality, and draws a parallel to Esau selling off his birthright for a single meal, and all of his desperate crying could not cause repentance and undo it.

The comparison is that falling out of grace into immorality is akin to Esau's mistake, it cannot be undone. Why warn with such an extreme example if it was not possible? Just another pointless threat?

Is the picture getting any clearer? Oh but I'm not done yet.

1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. (This proves that not only is your salvation conditional, but that it also relies on YOU.)

So now the OSAS crowd says "What about being sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit? Eph 4:30"

When a king put his seal upon something, it was an indication that it had his authority and approval, it was not a padlock, it was not a bank vault, it wasn't some kind of barricade. Furthermore, nothing in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation indicates that a seal is unbreakable. In fact, quite the opposite is shown in scriptures. There is a manmade seal and a heavenly seal, both are broken in the Bible...The seal on the tomb was broken when Jesus was resurrected, and the seal on the scroll in Revelation that John saw was also broken.

Many OSASers also leave out the beginning part of Eph 4:30 where it says to not grieve the Holy Spirit...they never stop to wonder what happens if they DO grieve the Spirit by which they are sealed by. Throughout this section I have shown what happens to those who spit in God's face, why would the same not be so for the Holy Spirit?

Now the OSASer resorts to "Well, I trust in the finished work of the cross for my salvation, and that's all I need to do!"

I'm going to bust your bubble on this one. The phrase "trusting in the finished work of the cross" does not exist in scriptures, nor does anything even resemble it. Search for it as you may, there is no such verse.

OSASer says Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "See, Jesus said He never knew them, He doesn't say He knew them once and now He doesn't. This proves they were never saved to begin with."
While the verse alone may be compelling for 'OSAS Lite', it's important to know the context of it. This is not a verse about eternal security, it's actually a verse about the emphasis of works. The important question to ask is WHY is Jesus telling them "I never knew you"? If we look just a few verses prior to this, you'll have the answer. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.. So what was the will of the Father if it wasn't just to prophecy and cast out devils? A few verses prior it says Mat 7:19-20 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. This ties perfectly together with being cast out in verse 23. They did not bear fruit, as many 'mighty' men of God who think they do so much for the Lord, with their evangelizing, and building churches from their thick wallets, have not bore any fruit of the Spirit. I've met a few of them, they can be vile people, and all the charities and mission trips won't mean much to God on their account.

Is there more proof for this? Yes, John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. It is and always has been Faith+Works neither one alone will do.

OSASer says 1Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."See, even if you've done nothing for the Lord, you are still saved.".

This is a lesser known OSAS verse, but it is sometimes used, and can be easily misleading due to the length and complexity of it. These verses start out in verse 11 with Paul saying to the church, that the only foundation we have is Christ, and (figuratively speaking of course) if you build gold, silver, and precious jewels, upon the foundation of Christ, you will receive a reward. But if you build wood, hay, and stubble, upon the foundation of Christ, it will be burned up by fire. Yet the person themself would be saved, and this is true, but there is a condition to this. Remember how the allegory started. Paul is addressing the body of believers telling them the only foundation we have is Christ. So tell me, what if somebody is not abiding in Christ, do they still have Christ?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

How does one abide in Christ?

1 John 2:3-4 We do know that we know him, IF we keep His commandments. If you say you abide in Him you ought to WALK in the same manner as He walked.
3:24 And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

What if you don't have the Spirit?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Looks pretty clear to me. So what are His commandments?

First and foremost, John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another as I have loved you, by THIS shall all men know you are my disciples, if ye love one another.

Further information as to what Jesus and God require of us can be found here, and we know it's not the old Torah, as explained here.

In desperation, the OSASer may throw out 1 Cor 5:5 and say "See, that guy's flesh was destroyed to save his spirit" To which I really have to ask "If there is eternal security, then why did he have to be destroyed in the first place? What danger was his spirit ever in?" The verse is counter-productive to OSAS.

1Peter 1:5 is also sometimes brought up because it says Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Some people would take the verse as meaning you have nothing to do with staying saved. At a first glance, this verse would be very destructive to a lot of my points, but it's really an issue of translation in King James English. Phrureo and phyllaso in the Greek are both translated sometimes as "kept" or "keep" in the Bible and their definitions mean to be guarded or protected, not withheld, retained, or prevented from something. The reason translators used "kept" and "keep" is because of the language at the time, and this can be illustrated by a 'keep' in medieval times being the guarded structure within a castle. It applies in not only 1Peter 1:5 but also in 2Thes 3:3 and Jude 1:24 among others that use phrureo or phylasso, as this is their only definition.

These and other verses were also spoken at the time to counter the dogmatic religious leaders of the day (pharisees), who had the personal power to dictate righteousness and damnation.

So what are we being guarded or protected (kept) from in the context of these verses if it's not preventing the loss of your salvation? We know 1Cor 10:13 says God will not allow you to be tempted beyond means of escape. Sure enough, the verse following 1Peter 1:5 goes right into the temptations and trials of this world. Similarly, the verses following 2Thes 3:3 go into obedience and staying on the straight and narrow, as do the verses immediately prior to Jude 1:24. I believe this settles the context of being kept by God as meaning temptations cannot overpower you, and not as a proof text of eternal security.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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TB125
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This is a good statement. I think that it clearly stresses the importance of obedience in the Christians life of faith. Thanks.

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Bob

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Betty Louise
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The OSAS crowd most of the time only looks at the top of the 'lease agreement' to salvation, and screams "Jesus made my payment, I have the right to live here no matter what!" Or in other words "I accepted Christ, and I'm saved no matter what!". Never....I mean NEVER do they read the terms and conditions of their 'tenancy'. I will even say, in my experience, most of them don't know the fine print even exists. For if they did, they would not believe in the heresy
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Wow you must have met alot of people. Living in three states and attending 7 Churches who believe in OSAS, I never met ONE who said salvation was a license to sin. You must live in a sinful State.
Mine you I only lived in Texas, Montana and Washington State so maybe we took salvation more seriously then your state.
Eternal Security is not a license to sin but the eternal security that Jesus paid for my sins and I can rest in His salvation and not what I can or cannot accomplish.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Sister Carols post stated:

"But He doesnt leave us"

My question:But isnt it true that the scriptures show that we can leave Him?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfullness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end,

Sister Carol, if it is not possible for us to depart from the faith...........how then would you interpret the above verses?

With love in Christ, Daniel

One more time for U and berry...

Hebrews 10:23-29

Introduction

Hebrews chapter 10 is in many cases a battlefield for the believers. You choose your side and prepare to battle. Someone gives you your ammunition ahead of time so that you don’t have to think much on your own or consider all of the options.

As you are standing on your interpretation someone from the other side fires a shot and puts a hole in your doctrine. What to do now? Do you throw out everything? Probably not….many times it is God himself firing a shot to help you get Bible Doctrine instead of yours. In this study we will TRY to look at this openly.


If salvation can be lost then it was never based on a finished work. Jesus Christ said “It is Finished”. If your salvation is not finished then it is not based on the redeeming work of Christ.

The book of Hebrews was written by Paul and if he wrote in Hebrews that you could lose your salvation then he has brought a curse on himself (Galatians1:9), because he writes all through his epistles about eternal life.

The verses state that if a willful sin is committed by these people that there is no more sacrifice for sins. If this is a saved person then it sounds like the wilfull sins will not be paid for and will be accounted for at the Judgment Seat of Christ. No forgiveness is available between here and there.

Sounds like in verse 29 that this person was sanctified and now they are in danger of judgment.
before we get into the passage let us look at several introductory remarks.

Who Was It Written To

The title of the book says “The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews”. Hebrews1:1 talks about God speaking to the fathers by the prophets, who had fathers and prophets? Hebrews chapter 3 spends time dealing with the fact that Christ is better than Moses. Hebrews chapter 7 talks about the fact that Christ was of a better priestly line than the Levites. Chapters 8 and 9 of Hebrews deal with a better covenant. Hebrews chapter 11 deals with the faith of people who are all a part of the history of Israel.

from the evidence above, we would have to say that this book was written to the Jewish people. This does not mean that we should discard the book of Hebrews or any other Jewish epistles. The book is not written to us, but it is written for us (2 Timothy 3:16).

What Was the Purpose of the Letter?

The book of Hebrews contains the word “better” thirteen times. Christ is better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4), he brought in a better hope than the law (Hebrews 7:19), he was made surety of a better testament (Hebrews 7:22), he is the mediator of a better covenant (Hebrews 8:6), and he was a better sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23).

The book of Hebrews was written to the Jewish people in order to prove that Jesus Christ was “better” than Judaism.

The Time

In order to rightly divide the word of God, we must consider several things. When was the book written, who was it written to, and what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written? We have already discussed who the book was written to, but let us now look at when it was written.

The book of Hebrews was written nearly 30 years after the death of Christ. The temple was still standing and in operation (Hebrews 13:10-11). Jewish people were persecuted when they accepted Christ (Hebrews 10:32), for many Jews were still zealous over the law (Acts 21:20). Many Jewish people were still living under the banner of Judaism and to accept Christ was to reject Judaism.

The Passage

Now we will look at the question, “what does the passage mean to the people to whom it was written?”

Verse 23

In verse 23, the Apostle Paul says, “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)”. First notice the word “profession”. A profession is not always true (Romans 1:22). Salvation is not based on our profession, but rather on a belief with the heart and confession of the mouth (Romans 10:9-10). Confession is agreeing with God, for example, when you confess your sins you are agreeing with God against your sins. The Apostle Paul warns the Hebrews not to waver from their profession.

Verses 24-25

These verses were written to exhort the Hebrews to meet together for worship and provoke one another to good works. The early church met often, and one reason was probably to strengthen and encourage each other in times of persecution.

Verses 26-27

Here we have one of the favorite verses of the Armenians, but remember the context of the book of Hebrews. Paul writes, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

Notice three things about this passage.

The sin was done on purpose (willfully). One point to make here is that if this is loss of salvation then we’ve all lost it. You say well I haven’t murdered anyone or committed adultery, but that is not what the verse says. The verse says willful sin. That is anything done knowingly that was unrighteous. Have you lied lately? Probably just a white lie….Have you not done something this week that you knew you should have done (James 4:17)
This person has received the knowledge of the truth.
If this proves that these people were saved then we have some problems.
Were all of the religious leaders saved? According to John 3:2 they knew that Jesus came from God. They had received the knowledge of the truth, but they didn’t all get saved.
The devils time and time again called Jesus the Son of God. Were they saved? No, but they sure did have knowledge of the truth.
So we see that knowledge of the truth in itself merits nothing, but faith in a person is what receives salvation.
After this sin there is no more sacrifice for sin. Keep in mind this is written to the Jewish people. What sin is it when done on purpose, allows no more sacrifice for sins?
Let us look at a scenario. A Jewish boy is born about the time of Christ’s death. He was raised to go to Jerusalem three times a year to appear before the Lord (Exodus 23:14,17; Deuteronomy 16:16). He went through all of the ceremonies and went to the schools of the Hebrews. He was taught to look for the coming of the Messiah, that He would come as a King to deliver His people. Then at about the age of 30, this young man hears a message preached that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that He died for the sins of the whole world. This young man learns more and more about the life of Christ, and begins to compare it with the law and the prophets. God opens his eyes to the fact that Christ was in fact the Messiah and that he must receive Christ by faith. Up to this point he like the apostle Paul has been zealous for God in the law, but now he has “received the knowledge of the truth”. If he receives Christ, then he will be persecuted greatly and his family will probably have a funeral for him and count him as dead. The fear of persecution drives him to “wilfully” reject Christ and return to Judaism. God says to this young man, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”. A spotless lamb or any other sacrifice will no longer hold off the wrath of God, the young man has seen God’s sacrifice. This young man will die and face judgment and fiery indignation, because he rejects God’s sacrifice.

Rejecting Christ is the only sin in this age that will send a man to hell.

Verses 28-29

In verses 28 and 29 Paul writes, “He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” Under the law, the punishment of sin against the commandments in many cases meant death. All it took was the witness of two or three.

According to Hebrews, God hath in these last days spoken unto us by His son. God has three witnesses (1 John 5:7-8). The “sorer punishment” will be poured out on those who “wilfully” reject the Son of God.

Notice in verse 28 that this person has “trodden under foot” the Son of God. When Moses told the children of Israel to put the blood on the side posts and lintel, he said nothing of putting the blood on the floor. In a sense those people were spared by going into the house through or under the blood. To be saved we must go through or under the blood, but this man has lowered the blood and has “trodden under foot”.

Notice next the phrase “wherewith he was sanctified”. The word “sanctified” means to be set apart in holiness. If the word “sanctified” simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture. Remember that the idea of Hebrews is that Jesus Christ is better. Some would say that the person sanctified is the same person who has counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, but look again. Jesus Christ’s blood sanctified himself. The blood set Him apart from bulls, goats, and all other blood either before or after.

Next notice the phrase “despite unto the Spirit of grace.” What this person has done has insulted the spirit of grace. We are saved by grace, and when someone turns from the free offer of salvation to Judaism or any other religion it is a disgrace to the spirit of grace.

Conclusion

In closing we will add evidence that Paul is not talking about the believers backsliding and losing their salvation. In verse 39 Paul says, “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Paul says I’m not talking about us because we have believed to the saving of our soul. These difficult verses when taken in context make more sense and prove once again that the book of Hebrews is about the fact that Jesus Christ is better.

(Forwarded from Ray, Andrew)

Please read prayerfully this time.

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That is all.....

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