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Author Topic: Summary Of Problems With Post-Tribulationism
Carol Swenson
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Summary Of Problems With Post-Tribulationism

1. The Problem of Imminency

The problem for posttribulationists is that all the Rapture passages seem to indicate an imminent Rapture, while the Second Coming is preceded by specific events. The difficulty is in reconciling these two distinct events into one single event. Posttribs try to solve this problem by redefining imminence as merely indicating that Christ will return soon, and argue against the idea that the Rapture could occur at any moment.

It should be noted that in several instances, Paul exhorted believers on the basis of the imminency of the Lord's return without even the slightest warning of an impending great tribulation (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51-58). Every passage that clearly refers to the Rapture has this unusual feature of exhortation which is based on the imminency of the rapture and the absence of any warning of an intervening great tribulation.

2. The Problem of the Comforting Hope

The problem here is in harmonizing the comforting hope of 1 Thessalonians 4 with a literal great tribulation. The hope of the Rapture was extended to the Thessalonian Christians as a comfort. Paul did not warn them of a coming great tribulation.

Obviously, the Thessalonians would not have experienced much 'comfort' or 'hope' if they had to go through the great tribulation before being translated. Posttribulationists generally try to get around this by minimizing the sufferings of the saints, and somehow insulating them from the judgments of the great tribulation.

3. The Problem of the Restrainer

Posttribs have not adequately dealt with the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2. They usually argue from silence by stating that Paul surely would have asserted pretribulationism if it were an established truth. Their logic seems to be: 'Since Paul didn't come right out and say that there would be a pretribulational Rapture, posttribulationism (by the process of elimination) must be correct.' However, if the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, as pretribs believe, then Paul in fact did argue for a pretrib Rapture.

4. The Problem of the Wheat and the Tares

Posttribulationists support their view by citing Matthew 13:30, where the tares are taken up first before the wheat. However, this contradicts the posttrib sequence of events. In their view, the wicked are not dealt with finally before the rapture. Subsequently, Matthew 13:30 does not support posttribulationism.

5. The Problem of Intervening Events on Earth

The tribulation is a period of preparation for the Millennium. Since all believers are translated at the Rapture, this period of time is necessary to make possible a new generation of believers who will populate the Millennium in their mortal bodies.

6. The Problem of the Judgment of the Nations

The unbelievers (goats) are cast into everlasting fire by means of physical death whereas believers (sheep) enter the kingdom prepared for them - the Millennial Kingdom. The judgment of the nations is an individual judgment. It results in the purging of unbelievers out from among believers and leaves believers untouched. (Note that no one is translated or resurrected).

If there had been a posttribulational Rapture, then believers would already be separated from unbelievers. This judgment would then be unnecessary.

7. The Problem of the "First Resurrection"

Posttribulationists call attention to the expression "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 in support of their argument. They ask how a posttribulational resurrection could be 'first' if a Rapture had actually taken place before the tribulation? The answer is that the resurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6 actually occurs after the second coming of Christ and therefore contradicts the idea that the Rapture (in the posttribulational view) is a part of the second coming of Christ from heaven to earth. Even a posttribulationist would have to recognize that in his order of events, the resurrection of Rev. 20:4-6 is not 'first.'

8. The Problem of Terminology

Similar terminology is used for the Rapture and the Second Coming. Posttribs thus conclude that these two events must be one. They use nontechnical terms like coming, appearing, and revelation in a technical way.

The answer to this is simply that the context must always be taken unto consideration in determining how these words are to be interpreted. It is faulty logic to assume that a word must always be used in exactly the same way whenever it is used.

9. The Problem of the Book of Revelation

Posttribulationists have no uniform interpretation of this book. Most posttribs spiritualize the great judgments in Revelation 6-19. The widely conflicting and contradictory interpretations that Posttribs hold to in regard to this book is ample testimony to their inadequate hermeneutics.

10. The Problem of Transition from the Tribulation to the Millennium

This problem has been touched on earlier. The basic problem is, How can saints go into the Millennium in their natural bodies if, in fact, they were raptured while Christ was coming from heaven to earth? Their bodies would have already been glorified.

11. Additional Problems which are the Result of an Incorrect and Inconsistent Hermeneutic:

• Disagreement on the Millennium

Posttribs do not agree as to whether premillennialism, postmillennialism, or amillennialism is the correct view. Thus posttribulationism does not lend itself to a single eschatological system of interpretation.

• Disagreement on the Nature of the Judgments at the Second Coming of Christ

The main disagreement among posttribs is in regard to the time and the order of these judgments. Gundry holds that the judgment of the nations and the judgment seat of Christ take place at the end of the Millennium. However, posttribs usually lump the various judgments together at the Second Coming. If they are premil, they place the judgments before the Millennium.

• Disagreement as to a Specific Order of Events at the Time of the Second Coming

Posttribulationists rarely offer a specific sequence of events in connection with the Second Coming of Christ. What little order they do give, they disagree with one another (e.g., compare classic, semiclassic, futurist, and dispensational posttribulational interpretations).

• The Problem of Classic Posttribulationism

The problem here is the impossibility of explaining all the predicted events leading up to the Second Coming of Christ as either past or contemporaneous.

• The Problems of Semiclassic Posttribulationism

Those who hold to this view are not agreed as to how far to interpret prophecy literally.

Those who hold to this view have failed in attempting to affirm any reasonable sequence of events relating to the Second Coming.

• The Problems of Dispensational Posttribulationism

Gundry regards the tribulation as a time of satanic wrath but not a time of divine wrath. However, Rev. 6:16 says it is a time of the "wrath of the lamb."

Gundry places the judgments at the end of the Millennium. The motivation for this seems to be that it is impossible to have a judgment of the sheep and the goats following the Second Coming of Christ if, as a matter of fact, the Rapture has taken place shortly before at the Second Advent itself.

• The Problem of the Distinction between the Church and Israel

Most posttribs include in the church the saints of all ages. They must spiritualize scripture to accomplish this. They argue that since "saints" are in the great tribulation, the church must apparently go through it.

Gundry is the exception to this in that he attempts to distinguish between the church and Israel. (Cf. separate handout on Gundry).

• The Problem of Daniel

Posttribulationism destroys the unity of Daniel's seventieth week, and also confuses Israel's program with that of the church.

• The Problem of Titus 2:13

Posttribulationists have not adequately dealt with this passage where believers are exhorted to look for "the glorious appearing" of Christ to His own. If the Rapture follows the Tribulation, believers would then look for signs instead of His coming.

• The Problem of Purification

Believers are exhorted to purify themselves (1 Jn. 3:2, 3) in light of the fact that the Lord could appear at "any moment." It would not make sense for a believer to purify himself for the tribulation (which would be the case if posttribulationism were correct).

• The Problem of John 14:1-3

At the Rapture, the church goes to the Father's house, and not back to earth again as posttribulationists hold.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/PostTribProblems.html

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Caretaker
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Good stuff Carol!!!!

Thank you for sharing. Another concern with post-trib is its Replacement Theology. After all the Great Tribulation is the time of Jacob's Trouble, NOT the Body of Christ's:

quote:

Replacementism

Because Revelation places a strong emphasis on Israel during the tribulation, and not on the church, most post-tribulationists have adopted a replacement theology view in order to maintain the focus on them.

Replacementism is the view that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church. The Church is now seen as spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem. This teaching claims that all the promises and blessings, in fact Israel's entire inheritance, now belongs to the Church. However, all is not lost for Israel; it gets to keep all the curses.

Dispensational theology, taught by nearly all pre-tribulationists, teaches that God has separate strategies for dealing with the Church and the Jews. When you consider the change in focus, during the tribulation, from the Church to Israel, the pre-trib rapture provides a good explanation for this transfer of attention.

To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation. I look for people that hold to replacementism to be in the cheering section when the Beast goes on his Jew-killing campaign. "The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance" (Psalm 94:14).

"This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me'" (Jeremiah 31:35-36).


http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html

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A Servant of Christ,
Drew

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16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Carol Swenson
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Thanks Caretaker!

quote:
Another concern with post-trib is its Replacement Theology. After all the Great Tribulation is the time of Jacob's Trouble, NOT the Body of Christ's:

So true...

Replacement Theology has provided the basis for all sorts of mischief, persecution, and atrocities against the Jewish people.

Replacement Theology is closely associated with Reformed (or Covenant) Theology, the brand of theology historically linked to John Calvin (1509-1564) and the Protestant Reformation. Reformed/Covenant Theology, in turn, is closely associated with amillennialism, an eschatological view with a spiritualized (rather than literal-historical) interpretation of the prophetic Scriptures. The natural affinity these views (that is, Replacement Theology and amillennialism) seem to have for each other is understandable because Replacement Theology relies so heavily on a non-literal and allegorical interpretation of the biblical promises to Israel.

Although many of the early Reformers and Puritans - including even Calvin himself - wrote about the nation of Israel one day being restored by the grace of God and experiencing a national regeneration, that is an increasingly marginalized, minority view in Reformed Christianity today (which is ironic, since we have seen the amazing rebirth of the nation of Israel, just as the Word of God predicted!). And even among those who allow for an end-time work of the Spirit of God among the Jewish people, there is still a reluctance to acknowledge that God is not finished with His people Israel as a nation, or to acknowledge the prospect of a future Kingdom on the Earth.

This view stands in contrast to the teachings of Dispensational Premillennialism, which affirms the continuing role that Israel plays (in tandem with the Church) in the outworking of God’s plan of redemption.

Complete article:
http://www.shema.com/Combating%20Replacement%20Theology/crt-004.php

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Betty Louise
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thank you for posting this, Carol.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Carol Swenson
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Hi Betty!

You probably remember that a lot of good information on this topic was posted on the "Who are the Israel of Yahweh?" thread too.

http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=38;t=000457

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oneinchrist
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You know whats funny. Pre-tribbers and Post tribbers accuse each other of the same things.

THAT IS WHY I CHOOSE NOT TO ATTACH MYSELF TO EITHER CAMP!

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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So, why are you SHOUTING?
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Brother Paul
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There are many issues here that I feel many of which are misrepresentations, not the first of which is the lack of demarcation between the persecutions of the anti-Christ and the time of the Lord's retribution being poured out (when we are clearly with Him) which seem to be lumped together, but one passage I am curious about is this, it was written:

It should be noted that in several instances, Paul exhorted believers on the basis of the imminency of the Lord's return without even the slightest warning of an impending great tribulation (1 Cor. 15:51-58).

The problem here is in harmonizing the comforting hope of 1 Thessalonians 4 with a literal great tribulation. The hope of the Rapture was extended to the Thessalonian Christians as a comfort. Paul did not warn them of a coming great tribulation.

Obviously, the Thessalonians would not have experienced much 'comfort' or 'hope' if they had to go through the great tribulation before being translated. Posttribulationists generally try to get around this by minimizing the sufferings of the saints, and somehow insulating them from the judgments of the great tribulation.

No one is trying to or insulating anyone from the "judgments" because that is not the point but rather persecutions. But this was because the Corinthians and the Thessalonians were already presently in tribulation (I did not say "the tribulation") and were at the time of his writing this already under great persecution at the hand of the Jews until about 54 A.D., this is why Paul himself escaped Thessalonika in 51 AD. Then when Nero, the hater of Christianity, took over in 54 AD, hundreds of Corinthians as well as Thessalonians were slaughtered for their faith (the reason Paul warned them not to marry at this time for many if married with children would not be able to endure the persecutions and would cave in for their sakes). This continuous persecution was again revived under Marcus Aurelius in 86 AD and later still by Diocletian around 303 A.D. The question here is was their a time till then when they were not persecuted? Paul was encouraging them to be strong and keep the faith despite it...this understanding above is quite contrived and has no basis in historical fact.

Paul was simply telling them that their rest would come when Christ is revealed (epiphenia at the Parousia/Rapture and not before then) and says in Thessalonians that this event would catch unbelievers off guard (as a thief - 5:1-3) but NOT the genuine Christians (5:4-5) who alertly should be expectantly watching (having the light of revelation), and not resting on the promises of false teachers declaring a peace and security that simply was not there.

Since this day that we differ on will usher the believer into the presence of Christ (and his judgment seat), we must be alert and attentive to how we live here and now, even though we agree we are not appointed to God's wrath (5:6-10). In this way the Thessalonian believer may be comforted in the face of the unknown future and persecutions which would follow (5:11) looking forward with the hope of faith which is evidence enopugh knowing whom we serve. Plus he gave us (in the Epistle to the Thessalonians) two signs, two things that would have to occur first (thus not indicating an imminent coming at all) which are the great apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin. We are only now in the beginnings of the greatr falling away (since the era of rationalism) and the man of sin has not yet been revealed, therefore unless Paul was wrong, the catching away to meet with Him in the air cannot happen yet, no not at any moment. Now the Lord could bring these things to pass very quickly and suddenly but until they occur (as written in the word of God) He will not come.

This is also what was taught to the earliest churches:

"For in the last days false prophets and seducers shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; and because iniquity aboundeth they shall hate each other, and persecute each other, and deliver each other up; and then shall the Deceiver of the world appear as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unlawful things, such as have never happened since the beginning of the world. Then shall the creation of man come to the fiery trial of proof, and many shall be offended and shall perish; but they who remain in their faith (thus Christians) shall be saved by the rock of offence itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead - not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him; then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven." The Didache, 16:3-8 (parentheses mine)

"Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it..." The Shepherd of Hermas

"O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;" Justin Martyr, Dialog with Trypho, chapter 110.

"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings." It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." Iraneaus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 26, Section 1

"Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: "And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, ....By the woman then clothed with the sun," he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father's word, whose brightness is above the sun."

"And the dragon," he says, "saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defense than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ..." Hippolytus

In my humble unscholarly opinion, it is clear in Paul's words in his Epistles that the return would not be imminent and that the man of sin (Anti-Christ) would have to be revealed first and that the genuinely saved would NOT be caught by surprize (as by a thief) and the early church wherever the topic is discussed also holds to this view and see it also in the writing of John's Apocalypse and this is what the Church taught doe at least the first 300 to 400 years....

So then I don't get it, why would some think this is the replacement when it was first and once only view held in common by all who were taught by the Apostles and their carefully selected Bishops? The switcharoo is a modern phenomena less then 200 years old...and is itself the very thing we are accused of, i.e., a replacement!

And here is another:

However, if the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, as pretribs believe, then Paul in fact did argue for a pretrib Rapture.

If the Holy Spirit has been removed then how can there still be those Christians (who to be so must be filled with, and have been born of, the Holy Spirit, who will lose their heads for not taking the mark? Revelations makes this plain that these are peoples (goy) from every nation and tongue and not just Jewish people?
Their is no explicit (exegetic) indication of what or who the restriainer is save by eisegesis (reading in something not actually there but perhaps implied according to ones interpretation). Where does the word, or Christ,or any of the Apostles, say this IS the Holy Spirit? Where? !?! Exactly! No where...

So is it for sure? Could Be! But could be's are not IS...

Posttribulationists support their view by citing Matthew 13:30, where the tares are taken up first before the wheat.

Funny, though not a classic post-tribber (we escape His wrath) I have never read or heard this one from any reliable mid-trib or post trib scholar...the wheat and the tares are separated when the Lord sends out the angels at the time of the judgment...this sorting tales place because they are among us not openly in opposition to us...they look like us to the world and even most Christians but you know them by their fruit (it is not of the Spirit) as will be revealed (sheep and goats - Matthew 25).
The tribulation is a period of preparation for the Millennium. Since all believers are translated at the Rapture, this period of time is necessary to make possible a new generation of believers who will populate the Millennium in their mortal bodies.

Wow! Sorry but where on earth did you get that one?...unbelievable...When we are raised and given our glorified BODIES we oursleves will populate the Millennium along with anyone left alive at the time. This is a new spin that in 22 years of study I can say was never taught anywhere in the Bible or in all of Church history (and I have read a lot of material and many scholars) and I only hear this accusation from members of your camp yet never hear it brought up as an issue of contention from the other camps.

Seriously I am not trying to insult your intelligence (though I probably have) I have great respect for you though we differ in some areas (like this one), but this is a brand spanking new eisegesis I never heard of. You do not really believe this do you?

Again heaven before Christ returns is filled with many BELIEVERS who were martyred DURING the Anti-Christ's part of the trib...are you saying they only became saved believers after the Holy Spirit (as restrainer) was removed?!? How?
Did these come to saving faith by mere intellectual deduction? The Scriptures say clearly you cannot come to the realization that Jesus is truly the Messiah, the Son unless the Father reveals it to you...

Where in the Scriptures is this 'preparation of a mortal population' process spoken of...anywhere explicitly (even implicitly)? You see this is another one of those things that can only (and must) follow if the first non-validated derivation is assumed to be true, but it is also no where spoken of in any of the Scriptures.

I am sorry but in light of what I do know (and I was taught pre-trib for the first six or seven years of my walk) I have not been persuaded. These arguments (and you are exceptional at presenting and backing your position with Scripture) are matters of interpretation that only make sense if you assume the Pre-Trib position....they merely cause those who do to say "Yeah! Right on..." but they prove and demonstrate nothing solid but just seem to me to be more of the opinion of one school interpreting the Scriptures according to their own view

Also just to inform the readers as to positional allegiances...every teacher taught by the Apostles as well as their students, thus the entire church for the first 300 years was a Historic-premillennialist, and not a dispensationalist...

Brother Paul

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Betty Louise
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Saints in the tribulation will be like Old Testament Saints. They will not have the infilling of the Holy Spirit like the Church has today. The Holy Spirit working in the Church is restraining the devil from doing what he wants to do. During the tribulation this restraining will not be here and the devil will be able to work more freely.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Carol Swenson's article said, under the section of comforting hope
quote:
Obviously, the Thessalonians would not have experienced much 'comfort' or 'hope' if they had to go through the great tribulation before being translated. Posttribulationists generally try to get around this by minimizing the sufferings of the saints, and somehow insulating them from the judgments of the great tribulation.
We don't just "try to get around this", we "get around this" by saying, from the Bible, "remember Daniel in the lions' den?" and remember Shadrach, Mishael, and Abednego and the fourth Man who was with them in the oven"? Do you remember how "there was deep darkness everywhere in Egypt" but "there was light in the land of Goshen where the Israelites were?" God will use the presence on earth of the believers during the great tribulation to show the unbelievers on earth that God "does put a difference between the profane and holy", just as God did with Israel in Egypt. No problemo.

love, Eden

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Carol Swenson's article also said
quote:
4. The Problem of the Wheat and the Tares

Posttribulationists support their view by citing Matthew 13:30, where the tares are taken up first before the wheat. However, this contradicts the posttrib sequence of events. In their view, the wicked are not dealt with finally before the rapture.

The wicked are dealt with at the Lord's Second Coming, when we Christians who are alive on the earth are caught up in our glorified bodies to be with the oncoming Lord in the air, and then we descend with the Lord to the earth and start the millennium with Him, as the Lord subdues the wicked.

Matthew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind.

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.

It all happens as part of the same events, at the Second Coming.

love, Eden

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Carol Swenson's article continued
quote:
5. The Problem of Intervening Events on Earth

The tribulation is a period of preparation for the Millennium. Since all believers are translated at the Rapture, this period of time is necessary to make possible a new generation of believers who will populate the Millennium in their mortal bodies.

All the "wicked" who "bow the knee" at the Second Coming will go into the millennium as regular people. But the "wicked" who "do not bow the knee" at the Lord's Second Coming, will be destroyed.

Genesis 41:43
And he {Pharaoh} made him {Joseph} to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee; and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.

We don't need another generation of believers to populate the millennium. When the Lord comes the second time, those who are dead in Christ rise to receive their glorified bodies, and those of us who are alive on the earh at that time will be caught up to receive our glorified bodies. There will be no more glorified bodies handed out after that.

love, Eden

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The article further said
quote:
Replacementism is the view that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church. The Church is now seen as spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem. This teaching claims that all the promises and blessings, in fact Israel's entire inheritance, now belongs to the Church. However, all is not lost for Israel; it gets to keep all the curses.
The church does not replace Israel. The house of Israel and the house of Judah will yet come up out of their graves among the Gentiles and come gloriously to the land of Israel, where the church and the house of Israel and the house of Judah are merged into the "Israel of God". The church are currently "branches grafted into the good olive tree of Israel".

love, Eden

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Her article also said
quote:
* The Problem of Purification

Believers are exhorted to purify themselves (1 Jn. 3:2, 3) in light of the fact that the Lord could appear at "any moment." It would not make sense for a believer to purify himself for the tribulation (which would be the case if posttribulationism were correct).

All believers in any generation are exhorted to purify themselves, so that, whatever comes, they will be able to "hear from the Lord". Tribulation or no tribulation, we need to draw close to the Lord, that we may live "life more abundantly, under all circumstances".

love, Eden

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Betty Louise...can you show me the Scriptures where this is said? I cannot find these!

"Saints in the tribulation will be like Old Testament Saints. They will not have the infilling of the Holy Spirit like the Church has today."

Brother Paul

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A question regarding Israel now being rejected...

Romans 11
The Remnant of Israel
1I ...Did God reject his people Israel? By no means (this is the word of God on the subject)! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[a]? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."[b] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[c]
7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:

"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear (God Himself did this with a purpose in mind), to this very day."[d]

9And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."[e]

Ingrafted Branches

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all ! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off (the Nokroi, that is the children of Israel scattered in the captivities...that were sown in among the gentiles), and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches (do not think yourself better or more chosen than the elect of Israel). If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then,

"Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches (the Nokroi), be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery (mysterium = a masked reality which we must partake of and enter into), brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (a misnomer...the phrase actually says "the fullness of the gentiles" and does not mean a specific number of Gentiles at all but rather is a reference to Genesis 48:19 - Jacobs blessing over Ephraim's offspring interpreted in the KJV as "a multitude of nations" but is in Hebrew, literally, melo'ha'goyim, "the fulness of the gentiles", i.e., Ephraim's offspring becomes "the fullness of the Gentiles" spoken of in Romans 11) has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is[f] my covenant with them when I take away their sins."[g]

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all (He has counted all to be sin so that salvation may be of grace).
Parentheses mine -

God has rejected unbelief whether from Jew or Gentile, those born from above are from Jew and Gentile and are made one new man "in Messiah". This includes three groups...the faithing Jewish people (the natural olive tree), those who WERE broken off who were sown by God into the Gentile nations that will be grafted back in (the enculturated Israelites most of who do not even know of their heritage who have come to faith through the preaching of Christ, i.e., the fullness of the Gentiles),
and those of the wild olive tree (faithing Gentiles)...
and they are one in Christ and in the heart of God the Father, and all of this was accomplished by the Holy Spirit because to be in Christ one must be born from above by the Holy Spirit and in no other way. The Holy Spirit is and must be here and be involved until all this is accomplished because it is by Him that this is accomplished.

Brother Paul

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I am sorry but I must post a clarification the word literally meaning "broken off" in Jeremiah 11:16 is "roa" when it refers to them as a degenerate and foreign vine in 2:21 the word foreign is the word "nokroi" which to this day is a euphemism among the Rabbis for gentiles.

Brother Paul

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If Betty doesn't mind, I think I can add an explanation for this statement.

quote:
"Saints in the tribulation will be like Old Testament Saints. They will not have the infilling of the Holy Spirit like the Church has today."

The Holy Spirit and the Pretribulational Rapture

One of the most compelling, yet often misunderstood, arguments for pretribulationism relates to the Holy Spirit's role to the church and the tribulation period. Most holding to the pre-trib position believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 refers to the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit through the agency of the Church. Thus, when the church is raptured before the tribulation, that ministry of the Holy Spirit will be removed as well. If this interpretation is correct, then it is a strong argument for pretribulationism.


The Holy Spirit as Restrainer

Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 discusses a man of lawlessness being held back until a later time. Interpreting the restrainer of evil (2:6) as the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit at work through the body of Christ during the current age, supports the pretribulational interpretation. Since "the lawless one" (the beast or Antichrist) cannot be revealed until the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken away (2:7-8), the tribulation cannot occur until the church is removed. Of all the rapture positions, only the pre-trib position can be harmonized when we understand that the Restrainer is referring to the Holy Spirit.

I believe the correct interpretation of this passage understands the restrainer to refer to the Holy Spirit as He functions during the present church age through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and indwelling of believers. This cryptic reference to the Holy Spirit's present work explains the unusual grammar employed in the passage. In verse six "the restrainer" is in the neuter gender (to katéchon) while in verse seven "the restrainer" is masculine (o katechôn). The significance of this grammar and how it relates to the Holy Spirit and the rapture is explained by Dr. Robert Thomas below.

Key to the above scenario is whether the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. After surveying various interpretations of the passage, Dr. Thomas concludes:


To one familiar with the Lord Jesus' Upper Room Discourse, as Paul undoubtedly was, fluctuation between neuter and masculine recalls how the Holy Spirit is spoken of. Either gender is appropriate, depending on whether the speaker (or writer) thinks of natural agreement (masc. because of the Spirit's personality) or grammatical (neuter because of the noun pneuma; see John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13, 14) . . . This identification of the restrainer with deep roots in church history . . . is most appealing. The special presence of the Spirit as the indweller of saints will terminate abruptly at the parousia as it began abruptly at Pentecost. Once the body of Christ has been caught away to heaven, the Spirit's ministry will revert back to what he did for believers during the OT period . . . . His function of restraining evil through the body of Christ (John 16:7-11; 1 John 4:4) will cease similarly to the way he terminated his striving in the days of Noah (Gen. 6:3). At that point the reins will be removed from lawlessness and the Satanically inspired rebellion will begin. It appears that to katechon ("what is holding back") was well known at Thessalonica as a title for the Holy Spirit on whom the readers had come to depend in their personal attempts to combat lawlessness (1 Thess. 1:6; 4:8; 5:19; 2 Thess. 2:13).1

Dr. Gerald Stanton cites six reasons why this passage should be understood to refer to the Holy Spirit's restraining ministry through the church.

(1) By mere elimination, the Holy Spirit must be the restrainer. All other possibilities fall short of meeting the requirements of one who is to hold in check the forces of evil until the manifestation of Antichrist. . . .

(2) The Wicked One is a personality and his operations include the realm of the spiritual. The restrainer must likewise be a personality and of a spiritual order, to resist the wiles of the Devil and to hold Antichrist in check until the time of his revealing. . . .

(3) To achieve all that is to be accomplished, the restrainer must be a member of the Godhead. He must be stronger than the Man of Sin, and stronger than Satan. . . .

(4) This present age is in a particular sense the "dispensation of the Spirit," for He works in a way uncommon to other ages as an abiding Presence within the children of God. . . .

(5) The work of the Spirit since His advent has included the restraint of evil. The Spirit is God's righteous Agent for the age, and there are many reasons to be grateful for His restraining hand upon this world's iniquity. None but the Lawful One could restrain this world's iniquity. . . .

(6) It is not difficult to establish that although the Spirit was not resident on earth during Old Testament days, whatever restraint was exerted was by the Spirit. . . . (Isa. 59:19) . . . The wickedness of Noah's day and the fact that life went on as usual in blindness to impending destruction is used of the Spirit in vivid portrayal of careless and wicked men upon whom Tribulation judgment shall fall. . . .

In light of this Scriptural parallel, it is exceedingly significant that in the days immediately preceding the destruction of the flood, the restraining work of the Spirit is emphasized. . . .2


Present Work of the Holy Spirit in the Church

The church began on the Day of Pentecost with a visitation of the Holy Spirit as recorded in Acts 2. The church ends at the rapture with the translation of living saints and the resurrection of those who have died in Christ (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Until the rapture God is gathering out from the Gentiles a people for His name (Acts 15:14) and combining them with the elect remnant of Israel (Rom. 11:5) into one new body called the church (Eph. 2:11-3:13). This great task is accomplished by a unique ministry of the Holy Spirit only during the church age called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit were we all [Jewish and Gentile Believers] baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." This work of the Holy Spirit is only for the church. Therefore, it is not surprising that since the tribulation cannot start until after the church is completed and taken to heaven in the rapture that the man of lawlessness is restrained through the presence of the Holy Spirit on earth indwelling church age Believers. This current work of the Holy Spirit is unique to the church. Dr. John Walvoord explains,


We search the prophetic Scriptures in vain for any reference to baptism of the Spirit except in regard to the church, the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). While, therefore, the Spirit continues a ministry in the world in the tribulation, there is no longer a corporate body of believers knit into one living organism. There is rather a return to national distinctions and fulfillment of national promises in preparation for the millennium.3


The Work of the Holy Spirit in the Tribulation

Those who do not hold to pretribulationism often mischaracterize our view of the Holy Spirit in the tribulation. They often say that we do not believe that the Holy Spirit will be present during the tribulation. This is not what we are saying. We do believe that the Holy Spirit will be present and active during the tribulation. We do believe the Holy Spirit will not be carrying out His present unique ministry related to the church since all members of that body will be in heaven. Further, we are saying that the Holy Spirit will be present in His transdispensational ministry of bringing the elect of the tribulation to faith in Christ, even though they will not be parto f the body of Christ-the church. The Holy Spirit will also aid tribulation Believers as they live holy lives unto the Lord. The Holy Spirit will also function to seal and protect the 144,000 Jewish witnesses for their great evangelistic ministry as noted in Revelation 7 and 14 and the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

Even though pretribulationists believe that many unique aspects of the current work of the Holy Spirit will cease at the rapture, it is not correct to say that we believe the Holy Spirit will not be present during the tribulation. Just as the Holy Spirit will engage in some ministries during the tribulation, relating to the 144,000 witnesses and the two witnesses, that are not occurring during the current church age, so there will cease certain ministries unique to the church which will enable the man of sin to come onto the stage of history.

Thomas Ice
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Brother Paul
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Yes! At the "parousia" just as this scholar has pointed out and as I have previously pointed out in the writings of Matthew, Jon, Paul, and Peter. The Rapture occurs at the Parousia which is when the Anti-Christ's forces are destroyed. The church is according to the word then, still present until the Parousia at which the whole world will become aware of His arrival. These people, if they have at all proven the removal of the restrainer is the removal of the Holy Spirit (which though it could be, they have not proven it from Scripture), then they have also proven the Holy Spirit and the Church are still in the world until the Second Coming (Parousia) and nothing more.

Brother Paul

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Aslo, as cool as Mr. Ice's arguments appear they are his interpretation to fit his preconcieved viewpoint, and well Dr. Thomas is amiss if he thinks Paul "undoubtedly" was familiar with Jesus 'upper room discourse' since Paul was not there...he may have later heard of it second hand (I say 'may have') but unless you or Dr. Thomas are omniscient, one cannot actually know this "undoubtedly".

The Parousia is the time of the rapture, is the time of the destruction of the Anti-Christ, this is the word of God with no interpretation. one can either believe it and recieve it or stand opposed to it, the choice is ours my sister, I am sure glad our salvation does not depend on such matters...and fear not, a messenger will come forth to anounce the arrival of the Brigegroom for the Church to the Church. Keep your wick trimmed and your lamps full of oil...just be found ready no matter when He comes (parousia). As He says to the Church, "In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world."

Brother Paul

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1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:4 - "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming (the parousia) of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of god, and the dead in Christ will rise first (the first resurrection). After that (after the parousia at the first resurrection), we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (when He comes in the clouds). And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should suprise you like a thief."

Mark 13:26-27 - At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

This passage Peter recalled to Mark speaks of the Rapture (the gathering of His elect to Himself), but note that it is at the time of the Parousia (the coming) and that it is written that "men will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds...". That is, the people of the world. Thus it will be no secret...

Matthew 24:27 - For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (which as we just heard from Paul, Peter and Mark is the time of the gathering of the elect, i.e., the Church)

Matthew 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear (epiphany) in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. they will see the Son of Man coming (parousia) on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

So again we see here that Matthew understood that the Son of Man's coming (Parousia) would be visible to all men, and when they see the pierced one, the nations will mourn because of Him. This is revealed in Mark to be when He comes to gather His elect unto Himself (the rapture).

John tells us the exact same thing in Revelation 1:7. Herein he says, "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, " says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."1

He also tells us in 1 John 2:28 "And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears (the Epiphany) we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming (parousia)."

So here we have the witness of three Apostles (Peter, Matthew, and John) that the parousia (coming in the clouds) is visible to the whole world (the epiphany) and it is a time of mourning. Paul revealed it is the time when the RAPTURE occurs. It is then (at the time of thje Rapture/Parousia) that the Anti-Christ and God's adversaries are consumed. Which means that according to the clear word of scripture, the Church (which is raptured then) is PRESENT during the reign of the Anti-Christ. Mark confirms it is the time when His angels are sent to gather His elect to Himself.

The Prophet Zechariah also spoke of this in chapter 12:9-11 when under the unction of the Holy Spirit he declared the event as directly following the battle of Armageddon (which comes after Anti-Christ's 3 1/2 years of false peace and persecution of the saints). YHVH is speaking and He says: "It shall be in that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo." Thus this parousia/rapture occurs after Armageddon...This also refers to the armies who came against Jerusalem, who according to the scriptures (although after the rise of the Anti-Christ) will be destroyed by the word of His mouth at His coming (parousia).

It seems St. Paul agrees. In II Thess 2:8 he teaches - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (the rapture), That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come
a) a falling away first, and
b) that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
He then goes on to sat, "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (parousia): Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

So according to Paul as well, AFTER the AntiChrist is revealed as the abomination which makes desolate, when he has assumed the position of god on earth in the Temple of God, THEN the Lord comes and gathers us to Him, and this is the same time that people (all over the world) shall see Him and He destroys the enemies of God (we will be with Him). It is at the Rapture/Parousia that the Anti-Christ is consumed by Christ.
So when is the Parousia? 1 Corinthians 15:23 tells us it happens at the same time as the resurrection of the saints, which Paul tells us about in 1 Thess 4:15-17 when it speaks of the Rapture. This means that at the Rapture the alive are caught up and the dead in Christ rise. In other words, this is speaking of the Parousia when the Anti-Christ (who will already have been revealed and will have set himself up in the TEMPLE) will be consumed. Thus the rapture occurs at the parousia which is post trib in terms of the persecutions of the Anti-Christ, but before the outpouring of God's wrath which occurs when Christ returns! This is the word, and so being written it shall likewise occur just as Paul, Peter, Matthew, John, Mark and Matthew have written it and in no other way and at no other time...that is if the word be true.

Brother Paul

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2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 "Now we ask you, brothers, about the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him (the Rapture)... do not let anyone deceive you in any way (not even the pre-tribulationists); because it will not occur unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed..."

it will not occur unless...it will not occur unless...?!?

Unless what? Let me read it again...okay! So we are going to be here when the man of lawlessness is revealed? Hmmm! Perhaps Paul did not understand,...funny how the whole Church for the first 300 years thought and taught exactly what Paul says here...(same unchanging doctrinal position which they also supported from scripture without a required eisegesis)! Funny how none of them mentions or even hints at a secret part-way coming in the clouds to take us away and then a full return later!?!

Are you saying these all were incorrect until Darby? That they were somehow unaware of the Lord's teaching or blinded or decieved? Even those Apostles whose minds were opened to the scriptures by Christ Himself (John, Matthew, Peter, Paul)? Hmmm!


Brother Paul

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Also, in more ancient time, a parousia was when a victor made his appearance to the people who had been defeated, it was his victory appearance.

An example of such a parousia or victory appearance occurs in the Bible, when General Joab took the Rabbah, the royal city of Ammon, and Joab sent to King David to tell him to come for David's parousia or victory appearance, or else Joab would claim the city for his own victory appearance. Here it is:

2 Samuel 12
26 And Joab fought against Rabbah of the children of Ammon, and took the royal city.

27 And Joab sent messengers to David and said, I have fought against Rabbah and have taken the city of waters.

28 Now therefore gather the rest of the people together and encamp against the city and take it; lest I take the city, and it be called after my name.

Joab had taken most of the city, and then sent to King David to "take the city so that the victory would be called after David's name". This was David's parousia or victory appearance.

Likewise when the Lord Jesus comes for His Parousia, He comes for His victory appearance, to show Himself as Victor over the earth.

At that same time, as Brother Paul has aptly shown, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then we who are alive will rise in our glorified bodies and join them in the air and then we all descend ("apantesis") with the Lord to the earth for His Parousia or Victory march.

At that time, all who bow the knee will survive, but those who refuse to bow the knee are cut down.

Genesis 41:43
And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.

love, Eden

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Though the preterists like to interpret this chapter as referring to 67-70 A.D, He is talking of His coming (parousia), and since that is not the time that that occurred they are incorrect. Matthew 24 says to the Church about the Parousia....
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming (the Parousia), and of the end of the age?"
4And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you."
8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs."
9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."
10"At that time many will fall away (the apostasia) and will betray one another and hate one another."
15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet (the Anti-Christ), standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),"
21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.
24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25"Behold, I have told you in advance.
26"So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man be.
29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days (the one spoken of in verse 21) THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30"And then (after these things...after the rise of Anti-Christ and the apostasia and his portion of the tribulation) the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky (the epiphenea at the parousia), and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
So the whole world sees the coming (the parousia) and then
31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (the Rapture occuring at the epiphenea/parousia event just like the others have described it)
a) the tribulation
b) the coming (parousia) and the appearing are the same "after the tribulation" event
c) the Rapture occurs at this time
Remember 2 Thessalonians 2:8, according to Paul ...the Anti-Christ is consumed by the brightness of His appearing (epiphenea) at the Parousia (his coming) which is when the Rapture occurs according to Paul elsewhere, therefore again, the Rapture occurs after the reign of Anti-Christ. This is the word of God from both Jesus and Paul...but I guess they were mistaken or misdirected in their understanding...oh thats right, Darby had not been born yet to correct them. Sad for them I guess! Jesus and Paul must have been interpreting the scriptures incorrectly. Hmmm! Maybe when we meet them the pre-tribbers can explain to Jesus and Paul the error in their thinking.
James 5:7 tells us the Church to be "long-suffering, therefore, brethren, until the parousia of the Lord". Oh no! James thinks the Church is here until the Parousia also. Poor James! Another student for Darby college when we get to heaven...he sure is going to have to teach those Apostles...hope Jesus gets an "A"...

Brother Paul

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Eden
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Brother Paul wrote
quote:
As brother WildB said to Eden, "let me lock this in" before he changes it,

a) the tribulation
b) the coming (parousia) and the appearing are the same "after the tribulation" event
c) the Rapture occurs at this time
Remember 2 Thessalonians 2:8, according to Paul ...the Anti-Christ is consumed by the brightness of His appearing (epiphenea) at the Parousia (his coming) which is when the Rapture occurs according to Paul elsewhere.

Therefore again, the Rapture occurs after the reign of Anti-Christ. This is the word of God from both Jesus and Paul...but I guess they were mistaken or misdirected in their understanding ... oh thats right, Darby had not been born yet to correct them.

Sad for them I guess! Jesus and Paul must have been interpreting the scriptures incorrectly. Hmmm! Maybe when we meet them the pre-tribbers can explain to Jesus and Paul the error in their thinking.

James 5:7 tells us the Church to be "long-suffering, therefore, brethren, until the parousia of the Lord". Oh no! James thinks the Church is here until the Parousia also. Poor James!

Another student for Darby college when we get to heaven ... he sure is going to have to teach those Apostles ... hope Jesus gets an "A"...

Way to go, Brother Paul, I agree with you 100%.

love, Eden

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Brother Paul wrote
quote:
As brother WildB said to Eden, "let me lock this in" before he changes it,

a) the tribulation
b) the coming (parousia) and the appearing are the same "after the tribulation" event
c) the Rapture occurs at this time
Remember 2 Thessalonians 2:8, according to Paul ...the Anti-Christ is consumed by the brightness of His appearing (epiphenea) at the Parousia (his coming) which is when the Rapture occurs according to Paul elsewhere.

Therefore again, the Rapture occurs after the reign of Anti-Christ. This is the word of God from both Jesus and Paul...but I guess they were mistaken or misdirected in their understanding ... oh thats right, Darby had not been born yet to correct them.

Sad for them I guess! Jesus and Paul must have been interpreting the scriptures incorrectly. Hmmm! Maybe when we meet them the pre-tribbers can explain to Jesus and Paul the error in their thinking.

James 5:7 tells us the Church to be "long-suffering, therefore, brethren, until the parousia of the Lord". Oh no! James thinks the Church is here until the Parousia also. Poor James!

Another student for Darby college when we get to heaven ... he sure is going to have to teach those Apostles ... hope Jesus gets an "A"...

Way to go, Brother Paul, I agree with you 100%.

love, Eden

LOL So Whoever do Agree do you agree with?

Wheres your star?>

--------------------
That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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The Church Would Rebuke the Antichrist!

If the Antichrist came to power with the Church still here, I do not see how he could operate. When Hitler was fighting to take over England, a number of Christians were praying for victory. Hitler made mistake after mistake, and England outperformed its enemy at every stage of the conflict. It is difficult to measure the impact of intercessory prayer in physical warfare. Little is known of how great a role praying saints played in the defeat of Nazi Germany. If the Church were to reside on earth during the tribulation, I am sure she would give the Antichrist fits. In Revelation 11:3, the two witnesses alone give the Antichrist enough headaches. Millions of Christians who know their Bibles well would recognize the man of sin and pray fire down on his head. The post-trib view would have to plan on the Church just rolling over and playing dead the whole seven years.

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Caretaker
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
The Church Would Rebuke the Antichrist!

 -

If the Antichrist came to power with the Church still here, I do not see how he could operate. When Hitler was fighting to take over England, a number of Christians were praying for victory. Hitler made mistake after mistake, and England outperformed its enemy at every stage of the conflict. It is difficult to measure the impact of intercessory prayer in physical warfare. Little is known of how great a role praying saints played in the defeat of Nazi Germany. If the Church were to reside on earth during the tribulation, I am sure she would give the Antichrist fits. In Revelation 11:3, the two witnesses alone give the Antichrist enough headaches. Millions of Christians who know their Bibles well would recognize the man of sin and pray fire down on his head. The post-trib view would have to plan on the Church just rolling over and playing dead the whole seven years.

Amen!!!

The indwelling Holy Spirit of God, the Restrainer, Who indwells all true Brethren:

2 Thess. 2:
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Eden
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Problem with Pre-tribulationism

Is the Second Coming of Jesus a secret to the extent that we do not know the hour or the day, but can we know the year?

Matthew 25:13
Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man comes.

The reason I ask if we know the year of the Second Coming because, if the rapture were to occur 7 years BEFORE the Second Coming, then we would know the exact year in which the Second Coming will occur.

And we would even know the very DATE of Jesus's Second Coming, by counting 7 years from the date of the rapture.

But we could ask, if all the Christians are raptured 7 years BEFORE the Second Coming, would there be any people lef on earth who would "know that the Second Coming would occur 7 years later on the same date as the rapture"?

There are a lot of people on earth, especially in the West, who would have heard "that Bible stuff about the rapture before the tribulation" but they never "could quite make up their minds" and they would be able to find ouot that the Second Coming would take place 7 years AFTER the rapture and ON THE SAME DATE, and that is probably NOT Biblical.

But, does the Bible say that the timing of the Second Coming is a "secret" or ...?

Matthew 25:13
Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man comes.

This does not say that the year cannot be known, but it does say that we cannot know the "day" either.

So the question is, if the rapture occurred 7 years BEFORE the Second Coming of Jesus, could the date and year of the Second Coming then not be predicted?

love, Eden

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Brother Paul:
Yes! At the "parousia" just as this scholar has pointed out and as I have previously pointed out in the writings of Matthew, Jon, Paul, and Peter. The Rapture occurs at the Parousia which is when the Anti-Christ's forces are destroyed. The church is according to the word then, still present until the Parousia at which the whole world will become aware of His arrival. These people, if they have at all proven the removal of the restrainer is the removal of the Holy Spirit (which though it could be, they have not proven it from Scripture), then they have also proven the Holy Spirit and the Church are still in the world until the Second Coming (Parousia) and nothing more.

Brother Paul

The Greek word parousia (pronounced pair-oo-see-ah) is a noun that means "a coming" or "a presence." As it is used in the New Testament, it can refer to any individual's coming or presence to a specific place or to be with specific people. For example, in 1 Corinthians 16:17, Paul writes of "the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus." In 2 Corinthians 7:6, Paul writes of "the coming of Titus." In Philippians 2:12, it is used to refer to Paul's presence.

Most importantly, however, if you were to do a search of the Greek New Testament, you would find that primarily this word refers to the Coming of the Lord Jesus. It can refer to either His second coming at the END of the 7-year tribulation period (Matthew 24:27, 37, 39; Revelation 19:11 ff), or to His coming to rapture His Church PRIOR to the 7-year period known as the tribulation (1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 5:23; James 5:8; 1 John 2:28).

So, the Parousia is the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and you have to look at the context to determine whether it refers to His appearing in the air to rapture or catch away the Church (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), or whether it refers to His second coming to Earth to setup His millennial kingdom (Matthew 24-25; Revelation 19:11ff; 20:4-6).

https://www.gotquestions.org/parousia.html

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