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Author
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Topic: The Hadean Realm
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
So what did God mean when He said that God would "not suffer His Holy One to SEE CORRUPTION"? I have always understood that to mean that God would not let Jesus's BODY DECAY, and therefore God RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD on the THIRD DAY.
That's what I believe too.
quote:
So, according to your version of The Hadean Realm, when Jesus died, Jesus went to "Abraham's bosom" in Hades, and you said that "David's BODY is still in the grave" but "David's SOUL is in Hades" ...
Yes
quote:
So, if the phrase, "You will not suffer Your Holy One to SEE CORRUPTION", meant that Jesus's BODY WOULD NOT DECAY, does that not IMPLY that the BODIES of all the other pre-Jesus dead were DECAYING IN HADES?
No, the bodies are decaying in the grave.
quote:
For it is clear that Jesus is IN HADES and God will "not suffer His Holy One to SEE CORRUPTION IN HADES, so does that not mean that HUMAN BODIES are IN HADES and NOT human SOULS?
No.
quote:
Or that, at least, the words SOUL and BODY here are SYNONYMOUS?
Acts 2:27
Because You will not leave My SOUL in hell {Grk., hades), neither will You suffer Your Holy One to SEE CORRUPTION.
This means Jesus’ Soul would not stay in Hades, neither would His body stay in the grave.
quote:
So here SOUL and BODY are SYNONYMOUS, and that also jives with the Old Testament where the word SOUL is ALWAYS the Hebrew word NEPHESH.
In Genesis 2:7, God took the dust of the ground and formed it into MAN, and MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL (a NEPHESH HAYYA, or SOUL LIVING):
In the Old Testament, soul (nephesh) is essentially the life principle. As a term used to express the human totality of self, the soul hungers, thirsts, is greedy, satisfied, feels joy, sorrow, love, hope, etc. This self also is the subject of appetite (including carnal appetites), hunger, feeling, emotion, will, etc.
In the New Testament, the (soul) psyche as the object of salvation furnishes a basis for the common idioms such as ‘saving one’s soul,’ ‘care of souls’ etc. The New Testament belief arises from a radically new revelation of the meaning of life and salvation.
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul ; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
quote:
That Jesus’s BODY was IN HADES, and that therefore you cannot say that “David’s BODY was still in the grave, but David’s SOUL was in Abraham’s bosom”, because IN THE BIBLE those two are the SAME THING: “nephesh, soul, creature”. For, remember, that even the WHALES were “nephesh, soul, creature”. They did not HAVE a soul or nephesh, but they WERE a soul or nephesh or creature:
We know that bodies don’t go anywhere. Ask any mortician.
We know that souls do.
Revelation 6:9 (NASB)
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
2 Corinthians 5 (NLT)
6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.
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Carol Swenson had written quote:
Peter is saying that David’s BODY is still in the grave. Only Jesus has been resurrected. We will not be resurrected until He returns.
And Eden answered quote:
So which part of David WAS in Hades, and where is that part now, please?
And Carol Swenson answered quote:
Soul; Heaven
.
Eden here: Okay, so you say that David's BODY is still IN THE GRAVE but David's SOUL was in Hades, right?
Now, when Jesus died, Jesus's SOUL also went to Hades, just as you said. In the Old Testament, Psalm 16:10 says this:
Psalm 16:10
For You will not leave My soul in hell {Heb., [/i]sheol[/i]; neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption.
And the Greek New testament QUOTES Psalm 16:10 and substitutes the Greek word "hades" for the Hebrew word "sheol".
Acts 2:27
Because You will not leave My soul in hell {Grk., hades), neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption.
Now, the above verses said that Jesus's SOUL was in HADES, so Jesus must have been in "Abraham's bosom" for a while, right?
But then the above verses further said that "God would not let Jesus SEE CORRUPTION" while Jesus was in Hades.
Dear Carol Swenson, let me repeat here what you wrote earlier: quote:
Peter is saying that David’s BODY is still in the grave. Only Jesus has been resurrected. We will not be resurrected until He returns.
And Eden answered quote:
So which part of David WAS in Hades, and where is that part now, please?
And Carol Swenson answered[quote]Soul; Heaven.
So you said that David's BODY was in the grave, but David's SOUL was in hades.
So what did God mean when He said that God would "not suffer His Holy One to SEE CORRUPTION"? I have always understood that to mean that God would not let Jesus's BODY DECAY, and therefore God RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD on the THIRD DAY.
So, according to your version of The Hadean Realm, when Jesus died, Jesus went to "Abraham's bosom" in Hades, and you said that "David's BODY is still in the grave" but "David's SOUL is in Hades" ...
So, if the phrase, "You will not suffer Your Holy One to SEE CORRUPTION", meant that Jesus's BODY WOULD NOT DECAY, does that not IMPLY that the BODIES of all the other pre-Jesus dead were DECAYING IN HADES?
For it is clear that Jesus is IN HADES and God will "not suffer His Holy One to SEE CORRUPTION IN HADES, so does that not mean that HUMAN BODIES are IN HADES and NOT human SOULS?
Or that, at least, the words SOUL and BODY here are SYNONYMOUS?
Acts 2:27
Because You will not leave My SOUL in hell {Grk., hades), neither will You suffer Your Holy One to SEE CORRUPTION.
So here SOUL and BODY are SYNONYMOUS, and that also jives with the Old Testament where the word SOUL is ALWAYS the Hebrew word NEPHESH.
In Genesis 2:7, God took the dust of the ground and formed it into MAN, and MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL (a NEPHESH HAYYA, or SOUL LIVING):
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Note that man did not HAVE a soul, but note that man BECAME A LIVING SOUL, which in Hebrew is NEPHESH HAYYA .
But then surprisingly, it later says in Genesis that the WHALES and other animals are ALSO LIVING SOULS, except that the writers of the KJV had a hard time believing the Hebrew, and so when it came to HUMANS being NEPHESH HAYYA, the writers of the KJV translated it “man became a LIVING SOUL”.
But when it came to the ANIMALS, the the writers of the KJV had a hard time believing that the Bible used the SAME WORDS for ANIMALS as for HUMANS, namely, the Bible says that the WHALES also were NEPHESH HAYYA:
Genesis 1:21
And God created great whales, and every LIVING CREATURE {Hebr., NEPHESH HAYYA} that moves, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the LIVING CREATURE after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
So here we see that the Hebrew word NEPHESH refers to the WHOLE CREATURE. And so the KJV ALWAYS translated the Hebrew word NEPHESH into the English word SOUL, meaning CREATURE:
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed MAN of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a LIVING SOUL (Heb., nephesh hayya, “creature living”).
Now, we know from the Greek Septuagint LXX version of the Hebrew Old Testament that the Hebrew word NEPHESH was ALWAYS translated as PSUCHE or PSYCHE in Greek.
So God said in the HEBREW Psalm 16:10:
Psalm 16:10
For You will not leave My soul {Heb., NEPHESH} in hell {Heb., [/i]sheol[/i]; neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption.
And the Greek New testament QUOTES this Hebrew Psalm 16:10 and substitutes the Greek word SOUL or PSUCHE for the Hebrew word NEPHESH.
Acts 2:27
Because You will not leave My soul {Greek, psyche} in hell {Grk., hades), neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption.
Strong’s Concordance
Acts 2:27 Because You will not leave my soul 5590 in hell 86 {hades}, neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption.
5590. Psuche, from 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew 5315, 7307 and 2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
So the Bible may say, “My nephesh is hungry”, which in modern English we would translate as “I am hungry”.
Or in Victorian English they said, that “66 SOULS {nephesh} came into Egypt with Jacob”. In Victorian English, the word “soul” did not mean “a soul inside a man” but the man himseel was a “soul” or a “person” or a “creature”.
So, to get back to Acts 2:27:
Acts 2:27
Because You will not leave My soul {Greek, psyche} in hell {Grk., hades), neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption.
Are we not saying that the NEPHESH HAYYA, the LIVING SOUL of Gen. 2:27, the CREATURE, IS IN HADES, and that therefore it makes perfect sense for God to say of Jesus, the Holy One of Israel:
Acts 2:27
You will not leave My soul {Greek, psyche} in hell {Grk., hades), neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption,
That Jesus’s BODY was IN HADES, and that therefore you cannot say that “David’s BODY was still in the grave, but David’s SOUL was in Abraham’s bosom”, because IN THE BIBLE those two are the SAME THING: “nephesh, soul, creature”. For, remember, that even the WHALES were “nephesh, soul, creature”. They did not HAVE a soul or nephesh, but they WERE a soul or nephesh or creature:
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed MAN of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a LIVING SOUL (Heb., nephesh hayya, “a creature living”).
Genesis 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the LIVING CREATURE {Heb., [I]nephesh hayya]I]., a “creature living”} after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
And,
Acts 2:27
You will not leave my soul {Grk., psyche, Hebr. Nephesh} in hell {Grk., hades, Heb., sheol}, neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption.
It looks to me like the BODY or SOUL or PSYCHE or NEPHESH of Jesus is in “Abraham’s bosom” in Hades, because the BODY corrupts after 3 days …
So Carol Swenson, how can David's BODY still be IN THE GRAVE but David's SOUL was in Hades, as you said?
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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Soul. Heaven.
Revelation 6:9 (NASB)
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
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Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Peter is saying that David’s BODY is still in the grave. Only Jesus has been resurrected. We will not be resurrected until He returns.
So which part of David WAS in Hades, and where is that part now, please?
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
My question is, does that mean that the "place of torments" is still IN Hades?
Yes.
The verses you used from Ecclesiastes, Job, and Psalm 146 are out of context. A person could prove almost anything by quoting verses out of context. But it's true that the grave is dark, and after we die we can no longer tell people about our Lord Jesus Christ.
The dead do not know what is happening on earth, but the living know and can respond to it. The dead cannot add anything to their reward or their reputation, but the living can. The dead cannot relate to people on earth by loving, hating, or envying, but the living can.
Solomon was emphasizing the importance of seizing opportunities while we live, rather than blindly hoping for something better in the future, because death will end our opportunities on this earth.
Job is simply asking for a little peace before he dies.
Job 10:18 - 22 (NASB) 18 ‘Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Would that I had died and no eye had seen me! 19 ‘I should have been as though I had not been, Carried from womb to tomb.’ 20 “Would He not let my few days alone? Withdraw from me that I may have a little cheer 21 Before I go—and I shall not return— To the land of darkness and deep shadow, 22 The land of utter gloom as darkness itself, Of deep shadow without order, And which shines as the darkness.”
Psalm 146 says to trust in God, not in people.
“In that very day his thoughts perish.” Whatever he may have proposed to do, the proposal ends in smoke. What he had thought of cannot effect itself, and therefore it dies. Now that he has gone, men are ready enough to let his thoughts go with him into oblivion; another thinker comes, and turns the thoughts of his predecessor to ridicule. It is a pitiful thing to be waiting upon princes or upon any other men, in the hope that they will think of us. In an hour they are gone, and where are their schemes for our promotion? A day has ended their thoughts by ending them; and our trusts have perished, for their thoughts have perished. Men’s ambitions, expectations, declarations, and boastings all vanish into thin air when the breath of life vanishes from their bodies. This is the narrow estate of man, his breath, his earth, and his thoughts; and this is his threefold climax therein,—his breath goeth forth, to his earth he returns, and his thoughts perish. Is this a being to be relied upon? Vanity of vanities, all is vanity. To trust it would be a still greater vanity.
quote:
But in any case, in your opinion, are those who are currently still in Hades in the "place of torments", are they in torments BEFORE the judgment day?
Yes
quote:
Is the "place of torments" in Hades a different place than the "lake of fire"?
Yes
quote:
Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore He said, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
“Thou hast ascended on high.” The ark was conducted to the summit of Zion; God himself took possession of the high places of the earth, being extolled and very high. The antitype of the ark, the Lord Jesus, has ascended into the heavens with signal marks of triumph. To do battle with our enemies, the Lord descended and left his throne; but now the fight is finished, he returns to his glory, high above all things is he now exalted. “Thou hast led captivity captive.” A multitude of the sons of men are the willing captives of Messiah’s power. As great conquerors of old led whole nations into captivity, so Jesus leads forth from the territory of his foe a vast company as the trophies of his mighty grace. From the gracious character of his reign it comes to pass that to be led into captivity by him is for our captivity to cease, or to be itself led captive; a glorious result indeed. The Lord Jesus destroys his foes with their own weapons; he puts death to death, entombs the grave, and leads captivity captive. “Thou hast received gifts for men,” or, received gifts among men: they have paid thee tribute, O mighty Conqueror, and shall in every age continue to do so willingly, delighting in thy reign. Paul’s rendering is the gospel one: Jesus has “received gifts for men,” of which he makes plentiful distribution, enriching his church with the priceless fruits of his ascension, such as apostles, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, and all their varied endowments. In him, the man who received gifts for man, we are endowed with priceless treasures, and, moved with gratitude, we return gifts to him, yea, we give him ourselves, our all. (The Treasury Of David)
quote:
Jesus ASCENDED to the right hand of His Father at the end of forty days, from Bethany:
From The Mount of Olives
quote:
So did Peter not plainly state that AT PENTECOST, David had STILL NOT ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN and that his sepulchre was still with them?
Peter is saying that David’s BODY is still in the grave. Only Jesus has been resurrected. We will not be resurrected until He returns.
quote:
Now, according to Psalm 6:5
Psalm 6
5 For IN DEATH THERE IS NO REMEMBRANCE OF YOU [The LORD], and IN THE GRAVE, who shall give You [The LORD] thanks?
Psalm 6:5
David was in great fear of death—death temporal, and perhaps death eternal. Read the passage as you will; the following verse is full of power, “For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in the grave who shall give thee thanks?” Churchyards are silent places; the vaults of the sepulchre echo not with songs. Damp earth covers dumb mouths. “O Lord?” said he, “if thou wilt spare me I will praise thee. If I die, then must my mortal praise at least be suspended; and if I perish in hell, then thou wilt never have any thanksgiving from me. Songs of gratitude cannot rise from the flaming pit of hell. True, thou wilt doubtless be glorified, even in my eternal condemnation, but then, O Lord, I cannot glorify thee voluntarily; and among the sons of men, there will be one heart the less to bless thee.” Ah poor trembling sinners, may the Lord help you to use this forcible argument. It is for God’s glory that a sinner should be saved. When we seek pardon, we are not asking God to do that which will stain his banner, or put a blot on his escutcheon. He delighteth in mercy. It is his peculiar, darling attribute. Mercy honours God. Do not we ourselves say, “Mercy blesseth him that gives, and him that takes?” And surely, in some diviner sense, this is true of God, who, when he gives mercy, glorifies himself. (The Treasury of David)
quote:
With that being the case, how could the rich man pick Abraham out of the mass of people.
Jesus told this story, and I believe Him. Jesus talks about Hades, not only in this story, and I believe Him.
Revelation 1:17 - 19 (NASB) 17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. 19“Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
Revelation 20:14 - 15 (NASB) 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire . This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Luke 16
23 And in Hades he {the rich man} lift up his eyes, being in torments, and he sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom.
If this parable is a literal description of Hades, describing two sections, one section being the "place of torments" and the other section being "Abraham's bosom", if, as Carol Swenson proposes, this "Abraham's bosom" is where the "righteous dead" were kept until Jesus took this "Abraham's bosom" section of Hades to heaven with Him, then "Abraham's bosom" must have had "tens of thousands of people in it" if this parable was describing a literal holding place in Hades.
And all these "tens of thousands of the righteous dead" would be either walking or laying down or sitting or standing somewhere in "Abraham's bosom".
With that being the case, how could the rich man pick Abraham out of the mass of people:
Luke 16
23 And in Hades he {the rich man} lift up his eyes, being in torments, and he sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom.
Now, if you say, "well, the rich man is assuming that 'it is Abraham' because 'Lazarus' is in 'one person's bosom", it is not likely that the rich man KNEW Lazarus BY SIGHT, especially, have some tell it, the rich man was so UNcaring and was having so much FUN inside the house that the rich man WOULD ONLY HAVE SENT HIS SERVANTS to give some scraps to the beggar, or beggars, and the dogs outside his portal.
So it is not even likely that the rich man had ANY IDEA who Lazarus was, but EVEN IF the rich man knew who Lazarus was, and EVEN IF the rich man somehow managed to see Lazarus in the bosom of some "man", how would the rich man have known that that "man" was "Abraham" since all the elders had long beards and Shemite features.
Abraham was not wearing a sign around his neck, right? Taking in combination, all this all points to the notion that this parable of the rich man and Lazarus is in fact a parable and NOT a real description of Hades.
The parable said:
lifted up his eyes
existing in torments
he is seeing
he is shouting,
said cool my tongue
I am pained
you are in pain
But God said of Hades that there was:
No work
No device
No contrivance
No intelligence
No reason
No knowledge
No wisdom
No thoughts
Not anything
So it has to be a parable, and not an actual description of a real Hades with "two sections", namely "Abraham's bosom" and a "place of torments".
love, Eden
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And here is another consideration:
Assuming for now that this parable of the rich man and Lazarus describes a real Hades that is divided into 2 sections, into "Abraham's bosom" (or "paradise"), and into "the place of tormets" between which is a gulf that neither side can cross.
Now, according to Psalm 6:5
Psalm 6
5 For IN DEATH THERE IS NO REMEMBRANCE OF YOU [The LORD], and IN THE GRAVE, who shall give You [The LORD] thanks?
This word "grave" is again the Hebrew word "sheol" and we have already established (from the Greek Septuagint LXX and other sources) that the Hebrew word "sheol" is always translated as "hades" in the Greek LXX version of the Old Testament.
Therefore, in the phrase:
Psalm 6
5 ... IN THE GRAVE {Heb., sheol, Grk., hades), who shall give You [The LORD] thanks?
So if there really IS a hades that is divided into 2 sections, then the people who are in "Abraham's bosom" or "paradise ARE ALSO IN HADES ...
So are they NOT GIVING THANKS in the "Abraham's bosom" section of Hades, since Psalm 6:5 said that,
Psalm 6
5 ... IN THE GRAVE {Heb., sheol, Grk., hades), WHO shall give You [The LORD] THANKS?
Have they forgotten how to give thanks in "Abraham's bosom" and "are they not grateful"?
love, Eden
"I'm just asking ..."
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But, to get back to Hades and its two sections, Carol Swenson proposed that BEFORE Jesus died "Abraham's bosom" contained all those who had done good or who had "believed God" in times past, like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Job and Daniel, etc., right?
And that, AFTER Jesus died and arose and ascended and was glorified, Jesus "took captivity captive" and "gave gifts to men":
Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore He said, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
So Carol Swenson proposed that Jesus took "Abraham's bosom" or "paradise" and those in it, up to heaven so that "paradise is now with God".
Okay, if Jesus did as you propose, what about this?
Jesus ASCENDED to the right hand of His Father at the end of forty days, from Bethany:
Luke 24
49 And I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you be endowed with power from on high.
50 And He {Jesus} led them out as far as Bethany and He lifted up His hands and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven.
Then, AFTER Christ’s resurrection and ascension, we read that AT PENTECOST, King David was still dead:
Acts 2
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34 For David is NOT ascended into the heavens; but He said himself, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit you on my right hand.
The Apostle Peter said the above AFTER Jesus had ascended to heaven from Bethany, and when, according to Carol Swenson's proposal, Jesus took "Abraham's bosom" or "paradise" and "those in it" to heaven so that this "paradise is now with God".
So did Peter not plainly state that AT PENTECOST, David had STILL NOT ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN and that his sepulchre was still with them?
If Jesus took "Abraham's bosom" from Hades to heaven, then David WOULD have been in heaven by Pentecost, right?
love, Eden
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I think it was Carol Swenson who said that (in my paraphrase thereof. correct me if I'm wrong), BEFORE Jesus had died and risen again, Hades had two sections, one containing "Abraham's bosom" (or, "paradise") and one containing the "place of torments".
And that AFTER Jesus was risen from the dead and ascended, Jesus took "Abraham's bosom" (or, "paradise") FROM Hades and took "paradise" with its saved dead TO heaven.
My question is, does that mean that the "place of torments" is still IN Hades?
And if so, how can the Bible says that "the dead know nothing"?
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything ...
Plus the Bible says it's a "land of darkness":
Job 10:21
Before I go from where I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death.
Job 17:13
If I wait, the grave is my house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
Psalm 146
4 His spirit [ruach] goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes 9
10 ... there is no works, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol {Hades} where you go.
But in any case, in your opinion, are those who are currently still in Hades in the "place of torments", are they in torments BEFORE the judgment day?
Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Remembering that at some point, Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire:
Revelation 20:14
And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Is the "place of torments" in Hades a different place than the "lake of fire"?
Or perhaps the "place of torments" in Hades will be the MATCH that lights the lake of fire?
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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None of Jesus' followers died before Him - they all died or were killed later. So the thief that went to Paradise with Jesus was the first New Testament saint to be redeemed and go to Heaven. ![[wiggle7]](graemlins/wiggle7.gif) Imagine that!
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Carol Swenson
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People's New Testament
Matthew 13:34 Without a parable spake he not. On that occasion. His whole discourse to the multitude was made up of parables.
Wesley's Notes
Matthew 13:34 Without a parable spake he not unto them - That is, not at that time; at other times he did.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
Matthew 13:34. All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them-that is, on this occasion; refraining not only from all naked discourse, but even from all interpretation of these parables to the mixed multitude.
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
When Jesus had the rapt attention of His audience and the people were humble and anxious to hear, Jesus spoke plainly. But, when His audience contained people who were prideful and resistant to His instruction, He used parables that pierced the hearts of those who were open but were lost on the proud.
Second Peter 3:9 teaches that God does not want anyone to perish but, rather, that all would come to repentance. His desire is that all people would turn to Him and seek understanding of the truths of His Word. He promises that if a person seeks after God, He will reveal himself. (raptureready.com)
Our Lord Jesus understood that truth is not sweet music to all ears. Simply put, there are those who have neither interest nor regard in the deep things of God. So why, then, did He speak in parables? To those with a genuine hunger for God, the parable is both an effective and memorable vehicle for the conveyance of divine truths. Our Lord’s parables contain great volumes of truth in very few words—and His parables, rich in imagery, are not easily forgotten. (gotquestions.com)
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But those things like the beautitudes He taught to His disciples, right? So to them He did not speak in parables because:
Luke 8:10
And He said, To you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God; but to others, in parables, that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
love, Eden
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quote:
Carol Swenson answered
quote:
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It does not say He spoke ONLY in parables. He made many statements that were not parables. Of course, Jesus also made many "directional" statements like, "make them sit down by fifties", which were not "teaching" statements. But whenever Jesus began to make "teaching" statements to the crowds, He clearly ONLY SPOKE in parables:
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I did NOT say what is bolded! Why do you quote me saying something I never said???
quote:
Okay, that could work, Jesus had not died yet, assuming that "paradise" was still a section in Hades because Jesus had not died yet.
Exactly
quote:
So then, Carol Swenson, what was the purpose of telling this parable, to illustrate ... what?
Luke 16
Jesus has been teaching about materialism and money -- the unjust steward, serving Mammon, and stewardship. His audience includes his disciples (16:1) as well as "the Pharisees who loved money" and ridiculed his stand on money (16:14). Jesus affirms the validity of the Law, rightly interpreted (16:16-18) -- important to the Pharisees. This story condemns the Pharisees for their love of money and neglect of showing compassion for the poor (16:19-31).
quote:
The above plainly says that Jesus ONLY SPOKE to them IN PARABLES. And the reason was that the multitude "would NOT understand".
Matthew 5 (New Living Translation)
Matthew 5
The Sermon on the Mount
1 One day as he saw the crowds gathering, Jesus went up on the mountainside and sat down. His disciples gathered around him, 2 and he began to teach them.
The Beatitudes
3 “God blesses those who are poor and realize their need for him,
for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
4 God blesses those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 God blesses those who are humble,
for they will inherit the whole earth.
6 God blesses those who hunger and thirst for justice,
for they will be satisfied.
7 God blesses those who are merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 God blesses those whose hearts are pure,
for they will see God.
9 God blesses those who work for peace,
for they will be called the children of God.
10 God blesses those who are persecuted for doing right,
for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
11 “God blesses you when people mock you and persecute you and lie about you and say all sorts of evil things against you because you are my followers.
12 Be happy about it! Be very glad! For a great reward awaits you in heaven. And remember, the ancient prophets were persecuted in the same way.
Teaching about Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But what good is salt if it has lost its flavor? Can you make it salty again? It will be thrown out and trampled underfoot as worthless.
14 “You are the light of the world—like a city on a hilltop that cannot be hidden. 15 No one lights a lamp and then puts it under a basket. Instead, a lamp is placed on a stand, where it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your good deeds shine out for all to see, so that everyone will praise your heavenly Father.
Teaching about the Law
17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
Teaching about Anger
21 “You have heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’ 22 But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.
23 “So if you are presenting a sacrifice at the altar in the Temple and you suddenly remember that someone has something against you, 24 leave your sacrifice there at the altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your sacrifice to God.
25 “When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.[j]
Teaching about Adultery
27 “You have heard the commandment that says, ‘You must not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 So if your eye—even your good eye —causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your hand—even your stronger hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Teaching about Divorce
31 “You have heard the law that says, ‘A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a written notice of divorce.’ 32 But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman also commits adultery.
Teaching about Vows
33 “You have also heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not break your vows; you must carry out the vows you make to the Lord.’ 34 But I say, do not make any vows! Do not say, ‘By heaven!’ because heaven is God’s throne. 35 And do not say, ‘By the earth!’ because the earth is his footstool. And do not say, ‘By Jerusalem!’ for Jerusalem is the city of the great King. 36 Do not even say, ‘By my head!’ for you can’t turn one hair white or black. 37 Just say a simple, ‘Yes, I will,’ or ‘No, I won’t.’ Anything beyond this is from the evil one.
Teaching about Revenge
38 “You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. 40 If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. 41 If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile,[q] carry it two miles. 42 Give to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow.
Teaching about Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.
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Hi, Carol Swenson, you wrote quote:
"he was caught up into Paradise" - Paul identifies this third heaven as Paradise.
I know that before Christ died, no one could go to Heaven. After His atoning sacrifice, the Old Testament saints in Paradise were visited by Christ, were clothed in His righteousness, and they were received into Heaven, the presence of God. Paradise was then in Heaven, or at least the two words became synonymous. We aren't talking about physical locations - these are spiritual realities. So it isn't hard to understand that paradise, or comfort and joy, are now in Heaven, the presence of God. Maybe there is an "up" and "down" to it. But Eternity is not a part of the space and time continuum we are in now.
Okay, fair enough. If "paradise" was originally in Hades, it would make sense that after Jesus visited "paradise", that He took the righteous and "paradise" with Him and "moved them to heaven". I think that could work.
Eden had also written quote:
Ezekiel 31:17
They also went down into hell {Hebrew, "sheol", which in Greek is always "hades") with him ...
And Carol Swenson answered quote:
This is another KJV thing. Hades (Sheol) is not hell.
The Hebrew word "Sheol" is ALWAYS translated in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament by the word "hades", so we know that Hebrew "sheol" and the Greek "hades" are the same thing.
As for the KJV translating "hades" as "hell", it would have been better if the KJV had simply retained the Greek words "hades" and "gehenna" and "tartarus" instead of translating all three Greek words as "hell".
However, the KJV word "hell" actually came from the Old German word "holle" which meant "a hole", meaning "that which was covered up so that what was in it could not be seen", that was the meaning of "hades" and of "sheol" and also of "hell". The Old Germans used to put their potatoes in hell.
In any case, you said that quote:
Hades or Sheol meant "the place of the dead". The wicked dead dwell in Hades until Judgment Day, when they will be resurrected and cast into the Lake of Fire
.Okay, I agree with that.
Eden had also written quote:
And here is the third verse containing paradise:
Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches; To him who overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Carol Swenson, are you saying that "the tree of life" is in the midst of the "paradise of God" and that this "paradise of God" is the "Abraham's bosom" section of Hades?
You answered quote:
I think in this context, the word paradise is a descriptive term, meaning the beauty and peace and joy of God. And yes, Eternal Life (the tree of life) is Christ. Joy and Eternal Life are of Him. Not in Hades (the place of the dead) but in Heaven (the presence of God).
Actually, since this verse from the book of Revelation, which was written AFTER Jesus had resurrected and presumably had taken "paradise" out of hades and to heaven, it can now be the "paradise of God" which would now be in heaven.
Eden also wrote quote:
But let's get back to an earlier point I made. The Bible says that Jesus ONLY spoke to the multitudes in parables:
Matthew 13:34
All these things spoke Jesus to the multitude in parables; and without a parable spoke he not to them.
The above plainly says that Jesus ONLY SPOKE to them IN PARABLES. And the reason was that the multitude "would NOT understand".
Carol Swenson answered quote:
It does not say He spoke ONLY in parables. He made many statements that were not parables. Of course, Jesus also made many "directional" statements like, "make them sit down by fifties", which were not "teaching" statements. But whenever Jesus began to make "teaching" statements to the crowds, He clearly ONLY SPOKE in parables:
Matthew 13:34 (NASB)
All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.
Carol Swenson also wrote[quote]This verse means that He always included parables to describe the spiritual truths of His Kingdom to those who would understand after the coming of the Holy Spirit. Even today people don’t understand the true depth and meaning of the Parables of Christ unless the Holy Spirit reveals the meaning to us.
Since Jesus told these parables before Pentecost, even His disciples did not understand them at the time. Those who do not give their lives to Christ as Lord and Savior will never understand the parables, or any other spiritual truth.
I think that we Christians who can look at the parables in hindsight, and with the added explanations given by the Lord to His disciples, we can pretty much understand all the parables today.
Eden further wrote quote:
And in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus used the same typical introductory phrase: "There was a certain rich man", as Jesus does in His other parables.
Carol Swenson answered quote:
I could tell a story about a good parent who helps his children with their homework. If the parent and his children were purely fictional, that would not mean that there are no parents who help their children with homework. So whether or not Lazarus and the rich man are historical or fictional is beside the point. The meaning of the story is still true. Since Jesus told parables about things the common people could easily identify with, to me it seems unlikely that He would tell a story about the Hadean Realm if it was not a real place and something everyone knew about.
Okay, that could work, Jesus had not died yet, assuming that "paradise" was still a section in Hades because Jesus had not died yet.
Certainly His hearers must have been well-versed in the Hebrew Old Testament concept of "sheol" and also in "hades" from the Greek Septuagint LXX.
So then, Carol Swenson, what was the purpose of telling this parable, to illustrate ... what?
love, Eden
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At that time, the wicked are assigned a temporary place of judgment and darkness in Hades, while the righteous are in Paradise, in the bosom of Abraham, which is geographically in Sheol/Hades, yet completely separated from the area of punishment by a "great chasm". Since all men have fallen short of God's standard of righteousness, it was impossible for those who were without true forgiveness and the imputed righteousness of Christ to have entered heaven itself and come into God's presence. Therefore all saints of the Old Testament were confined to this "blissful" region in Hades. (See Hebrews 10:1-14)
quote:
Okay, these 3 verses in the New Testament contain the word paradise:
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him {to the thief on the cross], Truly I say to you, Today shall you be with Me in paradise.
Hi, Carol Swenson, are you saying that when Jesus died on the cross, Jesus went to the "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" section of Hades? And that Jesus said that the thief would be in the "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" section of Hades, with Jesus?
I didn’t say it Eden. Jesus said it.
quote:
The next verse containing the word paradise is:
2 Corinthians 12:4
How that he {a certain man} was caught up into paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Hi, Carol Swenson, the man caught up to paradise heard "unspeakable" things there. Are you saying that Paul was caught up into the "paradise" or Abraham's bosom section of Hades?
The man was "caught up". Isn't Hades in the Bible generally described as "going down into Hades"?
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago; whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows; such a one was caught up to the third heaven . And I know such a man; whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows; how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul is using terminology common in that day, which referred to the "blue sky" as the first heaven, the "starry sky" as the second heaven, and the third heaven as the place where God lived and reigned.
"he was caught up into Paradise" - Paul identifies this third heaven as Paradise.
I know that before Christ died, no one could go to Heaven. After His atoning sacrifice, the Old Testament saints in Paradise were visited by Christ, were clothed in His righteousness, and they were received into Heaven, the presence of God. Paradise was then in Heaven, or at least the two words became synonymous. We aren't talking about physical locations - these are spiritual realities. So it isn't hard to understand that paradise, or comfort and joy, are now in Heaven, the presence of God. Maybe there is an "up" and "down" to it. But Eternity is not a part of the space and time continuum we are in now.
quote:
Ezekiel 31:17
They also went down into hell {Hebrew, "sheol", which in Greek is always "hades") with him ...
This is another KJV thing. Hades (Sheol) is not hell. Hades is the place of the dead. Sheol occurs three times in these verses. The King James Version twice renders it as “hell”, and once as “grave”.
The wicked dead dwell in Hades until Judgment Day, when they will be resurrected and cast into the Lake of Fire (Hell).
quote:
And here is the third verse containing paradise:
Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches; To him who overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Hi, Carol Swenson, are you saying that "the tree of life" is in the midst of the "paradise of God" and that this "paradise of God" is the "Abraham's bosom" section of Hades?
I think in this context, the word paradise is a descriptive term, meaning the beauty and peace and joy of God. And yes, Eternal Life (the tree of life) is Christ. Joy and Eternal Life are of Him. Not in Hades (the place of the dead) but in Heaven (the presence of God).
Mark 12:27 (NASB)
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
quote:
But let's get back to an earlier point I made. The Bible says that Jesus ONLY spoke to the multitudes in parables:
Matthew 13:34
All these things spoke Jesus to the multitude in parables; and without a parable spoke he not to them.
The above plainly says that Jesus ONLY SPOKE to them IN PARABLES. And the reason was that the multitude "would NOT understand":
It does not say He spoke ONLY in parables. He made many statements that were not parables.
Matthew 13:34 (NASB)
All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.
This verse means that He always included parables to describe the spiritual truths of His Kingdom to those who would understand after the coming of the Holy Spirit. Even today people don’t understand the true depth and meaning of the Parables of Christ unless the Holy Spirit reveals the meaning to us. Since Jesus told these parables before Pentecost, even His disciples did not understand them at the time. Those who do not give their lives to Christ as Lord and Savior will never understand the parables, or any other spiritual truth.
Matthew 13:13
Therefore do I speak to them in parables: because they seeing, see not; and hearing, they hear not, neither do they understand.
He used parables on this occasion to fulfill prophecy.
quote:
And in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus used the same typical introductory phrase: "There was a certain rich man", as Jesus does in His other parables:
I could tell a story about a good parent who helps his children with their homework. If the parent and his children were purely fictional, that would not mean that there are no parents who help their children with homework. So whether or not Lazarus and the rich man are historical or fictional is beside the point. The meaning of the story is still true. Since Jesus told parables about things the common people could easily identify with, to me it seems unlikely that He would tell a story about the Hadean Realm if it was not a real place and something everyone knew about.
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But let's get back to an earlier point I made. The Bible says that Jesus ONLY spoke to the multitudes in parables:
Matthew 13:3
And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
Matthew 13:10
Then the disciples came and said to Him, Why do you speak to them in parables?
Matthew 13:34
All these things spoke Jesus to the multitude in parables; and without a parable spoke he not to them.
The above plainly says that Jesus ONLY SPOKE to them IN PARABLES. And the reason was that the multitude "would NOT understand":
Matthew 13:13
Therefore do I speak to them in parables: because they seeing, see not; and hearing, they hear not, neither do they understand.
But to the disciples He did not speak only in parables:
Mark 4:11
But he said to them, To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to them who are without, all these things are done in parables.
And in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus used the same typical introductory phrase: "There was a certain rich man", as Jesus does in His other parables:
Luke 16:19
There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day.
Compare that with these parables:
Luke 12:16
And He spoke a parable to them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully.
Luke 16:1
And He said also to His disciples, There was a certain rich man who had a steward; and the same was accused to him that he had wasted his goods.
What is your answer to the above, Carol Swenson?
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson said to Eden quote:
Not in heaven, but in paradise ... read the post above
In the post, I found this quote:
2) At that time, the wicked are assigned a temporary place of judgment and darkness in Hades, while the righteous are in Paradise, in the bosom of Abraham, which is geographically in Sheol/Hades, yet completely separated from the area of punishment by a "great chasm". Since all men have fallen short of God's standard of righteousness, it was impossible for those who were without true forgiveness and the imputed righteousness of Christ to have entered heaven itself and come into God's presence. Therefore all saints of the Old Testament were confined to this "blissful" region in Hades. (See Hebrews 10:1-14)
Okay, these 3 verses in the New Testament contain the word paradise:
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him {to the thief on the cross], Truly I say to you, Today shall you be with Me in paradise.
Hi, Carol Swenson, are you saying that when Jesus died on the cross, Jesus went to the "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" section of Hades? And that Jesus said that the thief would be in the "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" section of Hades, with Jesus?
The next verse containing the word paradise is:
2 Corinthians 12:4
How that he {a certain man} was caught up into paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Hi, Carol Swenson, the man caught up to paradise heard "unspeakable" things there. Are you saying that Paul was caught up into the "paradise" or Abraham's bosom section of Hades?
The man was "caught up". Isn't Hades in the Bible generally described as "going down into Hades"?
Ezekiel 31:17
They also went down into hell {Hebrew, "sheol", which in Greek is always "hades") with him ...
And here is the third verse containing paradise:
Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches; To him who overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Hi, Carol Swenson, are you saying that "the tree of life" is in the midst of the "paradise of God" and that this "paradise of God" is the "Abraham's bosom" section of Hades?
Thank you. Eden
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Please explain the difference between heaven and paradise? Thank you.
Read the first post. Thanks.
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Where did Jesus go after He died on the cross?
Perhaps the best known scripture that appears to deal with this issue is found in 1 Pet. 3:18-20,
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."
When Jesus was made alive in the spirit, it is not saying that His spirit died and then it became alive again. "Made alive in the spirit" is contrasted with "put to death in the flesh." He first lived as mortal men but "...He began to live a spiritual 'resurrection' life, whereby He has the power to bring us to God."
Furthermore, some Bibles (NIV, KJV, and NKJV) render the verse as "made alive by the Spirit," referring to the Holy Spirit's work with Christ. “By the Spirit” translates one word, pneumati, which could refer to the third Person of the Trinity as the agent of Christ’s resurrection.
One view where Jesus was and what He did before His resurrection is that He went to Hades (the place of the dead) and made proclamation to those who were in spiritual prison. The word "proclamation" in Greek is kerusso. It means to proclaim and is a different word than "euaggelizo" which means to preach the gospel. Therefore, it is most probable that Jesus was not preaching the gospel to those in Hades/Spirit prison so they could be saved, but was instead proclaiming the truth to them. After all, the Bible says, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment," (Heb. 9:27).
But who were the ones in spiritual prison? Some believe it is the people who were alive at the time of Noah's flood and who were killed in the flood. Others believe it is all humanity who died before the time of the cross. There seems to be support for the former position in 2 Pet. 2:4-5,
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly."
Needless to say, this passage also raises many questions and much debate can be found as to its precise meaning. Nevertheless, as far as the other option goes, that Jesus simply presented the facts concerning His work on the cross to those in spiritual prison, we can look to Eph. 4:8-10 for possible support.
"When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men. 9 Now this expression, 'He ascended,' what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things...
Some theologians believe that during the three days between Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, He descended into Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:19-31), proclaimed to them the mystery of the gospel, and then led them into heaven to dwell with God. The belief is that they were not permitted to enter into the presence of God in heaven until after the atonement. Once that had happened, Jesus, who had died, descended to Abraham's bosom, proclaimed the gospel, and then led its residents into heaven.
So, even though we cannot precisely determine where Jesus was and what He did during those three days, it seems apparent that He presented the gospel message (not to have them get saved) to those in spirit prison and possibly also to those in Abraham's bosom.
http://www.carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/where-did-jesus-go-after-he-died-cross
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Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Not Heaven, but Paradise.
And ... the difference is???
Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today shall you be [with Me in paradise", right?
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today shall you be with Me in PARADISE.
2 Corinthians 12:4
How he was caught up into PARADISE and heard unspeakable words which are not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches; To him who overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God.
Strong's Concordance
Luk 23:43 ... Today shalt thou be with me in paradise 3857.
2Cor 12:4 How he was caught up into paradise 3857 ...
Rev 2:7 ... To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise 3857 of God.
3857 paradeisos, of Oriental origin (compare 6508); a park, (esspecially) an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):--paradise.
So Carol Swenson had written quote:
Not Heaven, but Paradise.
Please explain the difference between heaven and paradise? Thank you.
love, Eden
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quote:
When our Lord was alive on the earth and speaking this parable, He said: "...NO MAN HAS ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN..." So how can it be said that at the time when our Lord was telling us that "no man has ascended up to heaven", that Lazarus and Abraham were already up in heaven?
Not Heaven, but Paradise.
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CONTRADICTIONS OF A LITERAL INTERPRETATION
If this parable is taken literally, we will find more than a few hundred contradictions with other parts of God’s revealed Word.
One would have to use a black marker to cut from the Bible many verses dealing with spirit, soul, body, death, resurrection, immortality, grave, hades, sheol, sin, punishment, chastisement, firstfruits, rewards, justification, reconciliation, prophecy, grace, salvation and the sovereignty of God, just to name a few!
All of the above verses would contradict the idea that this parable can be literal or historical.
For example:
Luke 16
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom; the rich man also died, and was also buried.
So, the poor man died and wass carried away by messengers into Abraham’s bosom.
That is impossible if this statement is taken literally or historically, because it is neither historical nor scriptural.
Many say Abraham's bosom represents Lazarus in heaven. But how could Lazarus be in Heaven while his Lord was still on the earth?
1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead and become the firstfruit of them who slept.
Abraham wasn’t the "firstfruit" in heaven and Lazarus wasn’t the "firstfruit" in heaven. JESUS WAS THE FIRSTFRUIT OF THEM WHO SLEPT.
Jesus plainly said that not only had David not ascended into the heavens, but,
John 3
13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but He who came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.
If one teaches that this parable is a literal, historical fact that happened BEFORE Jesus died makes Christ out to be a liar.
When our Lord was alive on the earth and speaking this parable, He said: "...NO MAN HAS ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN..." So how can it be said that at the time when our Lord was telling us that "no man has ascended up to heaven", that Lazarus and Abraham were already up in heaven?
This is proof that when Jesus spoke thisi parable there was no man named Lazarus, or anyone else, with Abraham. So that is one of the many problems with the Scriptures if we insist that this parable is literal or historical when Jesus told it, because Jesus starts out by saying,
Luke 16
19 There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and he fared sumptuously every day.
I'll continue this later ... but feel free to comment if you like ...
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Jesus ONLY spoke to the multitudes in parables:
Luke 16:18
Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.
Is this a parable?
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Eden
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Carol Swenson's Topic says quote:
This story is referred to at least 20 times by the early church fathers. The thing which makes it most interesting is that this was not understood as parable or an allegory. It was understood by most of the fathers to be an actual event that happened.
Can those who teach that Luke 16 is not a parable, prove their position? No, they cannot. Can it then be proved by the Scriptures that this is a parable? Yes, it can.
A PARABLE DEFINED
A technical definition of a parable is: (1) "Parable: Greek, para bole = BESIDE CAST. A statement “cast beside” or “parallel to” its real spiritual significance, a figure or likeness in action."
GREEK-ENGLISH KEYWORD CONCORDANCE p. 216. (2) "A short simple tale based on familiar things meant to convey a deeper and more profound moral or spiritual truth," WEBSTER’S DICTIONARY. In Old English it was called a "near-story."
Jesus spoke in parables throughout His whole ministry.
Mark 12
1 And He began to speak to them in parables.
Jesus ONLY spoke to the multitudes in parables:
Matthew 13
34 All these things Jesus spoke in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them...
In Matthew 13 we are given 7 different parables. No parable is literal or historical. The moment we make a parable literal, it ceases to be a parable. Jesus spoke ONLY in parables to the mass of people who listened to Him wherever He went.
PARABLES MAY MENTION IDENTIFIABLE PERSONS
Is Luke 16:19-31 a "parable?" Many say that it is absolutely not a parable because a person is mentioned by name and identified as a specific and particular person. The mention of an identifiable person is not, however, the test for a parable. Other parables also mention identifiable persons, but they are still parables:
Mark 4:15 mentions Satan
Matt. 13:37 mentions The Son of man
Matt. 13:39 mentions the devil
Matt. 15:13 mentions God the Father
II Sam. 12:7 is said to be King David
Ezek. 23:1-4 mentions Aholah and Aholibah
Luke 4:23 Jesus applies “Physician” to Himself
JESUS ONLY SPOKE TO THE MASSES IN PARABLES
Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and the multitudes in parables:
Mark 12
1 And He began to speak to them in parables.
Jesus ONLY spoke to the multitudes in parables:
Matthew 13
34 All these things Jesus spoke in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them...
Jesus spoke in parables so His listeners would not understand:
"Why are You speaking to them in parables? ... And Jesus answered: “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has NOT been given." (Matt.. 13:10-11).
The fact that THE BIBLE SAYS Jesus spoke to the masses in parables only, ought to be sufficient Scriptural evidence FOR ANYONE that Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable. There are, however, more proofs, which I will discuss next. But feel free to comment if you like.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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Heaven ![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise, was for Old Testament saints who had not yet received the imputed righteousness of Christ. The standard for Heaven is perfection. Without His righteousness, no one is good enough.
I guess even Enoch went to Paradise.
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MentorsRiddle
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I think I'd be more in awe at who I was standing next to. Lol
it would be amazing. So do we go streight to heaven now? Or to Jacobs boosem and wait until the second comming?
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
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Carol Swenson
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Can you imagine Moses and Elijah at The Transfiguration, talking to Jesus, knowing that He would soon go to the cross and set them free?
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MentorsRiddle
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Really awesome post, Carol.
I was just looking for this type of information today and found this post.
Thanks for the ino & your time in posting it.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
God bless
--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
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Carol Swenson
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Many people have asked: Since believing in Jesus is necessary for going to heaven, what happened to the faithful before the first advent of Christ? How could they be held responsible for believing in Jesus if Jesus hadn't been born yet.
In a nutshell, the early church most frequently relied upon the story that Jesus told of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus to explain this, which is found in Luke. 16:19-28. After the rich man and the beggar Lazarus have both died, the rich man finds himself in a place of torment, yet he can see across a great gulf where the beggar is, “in the bosom of Abraham”, enjoying “paradise”.
This story is referred to at least 20 times by the early church fathers. The thing which makes it most interesting is that this was not understood as parable or an allegory. It was understood by most of the fathers to be an actual event that happened.
1) Up to that point in time (before the first advent of Christ) when a person died, whether they were righteous or wicked, their soul was transported to the underworld known by the Old Testament saints as Sheol. (See Gen. 37:35, 42:38, 44:29; Num 16:30,33; 1 Sam 2:6; 2 Sam. 22:6, 1 Kings 2:6; Job 7:9, 11:8, 14;13, 17:13, 21:13, 34:19: Psalm 6:5, 9:17, 16:10, 18:5, 30:3, 31:17, 49:14, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3, 89:48, 11:13, 138:8, 141:7; Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:24, 30:16; Eccl 9:10; Songs 8:6; Isaiah 5:14, 14:9, 28:15, 38:18, 57:9; Ezekiel 31:15, 32:21, Hosea 13:14, Amos 9:2, Jonah 2:2, Habbakuk 2:5)
This place is referred to as Hades in the New Testament.
2) At that time, the wicked are assigned a temporary place of judgment and darkness in Hades, while the righteous are in Paradise, in the bosom of Abraham, which is geographically in Sheol/Hades, yet completely separated from the area of punishment by a "great chasm". Since all men have fallen short of God's standard of righteousness, it was impossible for those who were without true forgiveness and the imputed righteousness of Christ to have entered heaven itself and come into God's presence. Therefore all saints of the Old Testament were confined to this "blissful" region in Hades. (See Hebrews 10:1-14)
The saints are described as being in a blissful or peaceful state, although they are essentially captive until the resurrection. That point is without dissent in the post-apostolic period.
1. Paul clearly taught that to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord ( II Cor. 5:8) This can only refer to our intermediate state after death but before the resurrection, since it is specifically stated as being "absent from the body."
2. Both Biblical tradition and apostolic tradition records Jesus' descent into Hades before his own resurrection. Jesus told the thief on the cross beside him that before the sun set that day, they would be in "Paradise" ie. Abraham's Bosom. Apocryphal writings like the Gospel of Nicodemus records how Jesus appeared in Hades and triumphed over Satan, Death, and Hades, whence we get the phrase from the apostle's creed "He descended into Hell". (See also Col. 2:5).
Having procured salvation for the Old Testament saints, they were free to "boldly enter the throne of grace". Christ subsequently could be said to have extricated those held in captivity in that compartment of Hades. Paul writes in the Book of Ephesians 4:8-9: This is why it says "when he ascended on high, he led captives in his train, and gave gifts to men."
This would indicate that those who received him in Hades did indeed ascend into God's presence.
This scenario of freeing the captives in "Abraham's Bosom" would also lend special meaning to Jesus' words in John 8:56, where he states that "Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day."
4. The Bible says that even now, those "in Christ" have been "raised up" and made to sit in "heavenly places". (Eph 2:5,6) Our spiritual position before God, therefore, could not be below in captivity in Hades until the resurrection. We currently have access to our heavenly Father. How much more when we have put off this flesh!
In summary of this issue, we may be able to affirm that there is a conscious existence between the grave and the resurrection. The Old Testament saints waited in "paradise" until the coming of Christ, when paradise was carried up and is now synonymous with "the third heaven" ( II Corinthian 12:2-5). Jesus spent his time between the tomb and his resurrection preaching in the region of Hades (1 Peter 3:18-20).
http://letsaskgod.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2&Itemid=2
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