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Author Topic: What Will Our Glorified Bodies Be Like?
Carol Swenson
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Found in Him
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[zzzzzz] [zzzzzz]

--------------------
~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24

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Carol Swenson
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Eden
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Hi, Carol Swenson, if anyone is falling asleep from our discussion, they can always be creative with the help of God to start another exciting Topic.

As for me, I learned some new things surrounding John 20:17 that I did not know before, thanks to our discussion.

Mark 14:37
And He comes and finds them sleeping and said to to Peter, "Simon, are you sleeping? Could you not watch for one hour?

So anyway, I did learn some new things in this discussion. I will never forget John 20:17 and Mary Magdalena and the other Mary running [hyper] toward the disciples.

love, Eden
"sleep on now, [zzzzzz] take your rest, for the hour has come" (Mark 14:41)

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Ahh, Carol Swenson, so good to see that you are ALSO a Greek scholar xoxoxo (muwahhh)

Eden

No, I'm not a Greek scholar, and I won't pretend to be.

It looks like we're boring people to sleep. I'll close my side of this debate by saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the absolute first in all things. But as He has given us His precious Holy Bible, His written Word, He has also given us pastors and teachers.

We are so fortunate to be living in a society where all these wonderful resources are freely available to everyone willing to use them.

May God bless you Eden,

Carol

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Found in Him
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[zzzzzz]

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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24

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Eden
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Ahh, Carol Swenson, so good to see that you are ALSO a Greek scholar xoxoxo (muwahhh)

Eden

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Carol Swenson
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You compare the KJV to the KJV and then say it must be correct because it did the same thing over and over? Very funny.

The New American Standard Bible has been widely acclaimed as “the most literally accurate translation” from the original languages.

John 20:17 (NASB)
Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”


Did you also love...

Robertson's Word Pictures (NT)

John 20:17

Touch me not (mh mou aptou). Present middle imperative in prohibition with genitive case, meaning "cease clinging to me" rather than "Do not touch me."

How about...

THE COMPLETE WORD STUDY DICTIONARY : NEW TESTAMENT

G680. ἅπτομαι haptomai; fut. hapsomai, mid. deponent from haptō (G681), to connect, bind. To apply oneself to , to touch. Refers to such handling of an object as to exert a modifying influence upon it or upon oneself. The same effect may be conveyed by the verb thigganō (G2345). These words sometimes may be exchanged one for the other (e.g., Sept.: Ex. 19:12). Both words are used together in Col. 2:21. Haptomai is usually stronger than thigganō (1 John 5:18; Sept.: Ps. 104:15). Thigganō is correctly translated in Col. 2:21 as “handle not,” but the basic meaning is touching for the purpose of manipulating. Distinguished from psēlaphaō (G5584), which actually only means to touch the surface of something (Luke 24:39; 1 John 1:1).

How about...

G680

ἅπτομαι

haptomai

Thayer Definition:

1) to fasten one’s self to, adhere to, cling to

How about...

Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

G680

ἅπτομαι

haptomai

hap'-tom-ahee

Reflexive of G681; properly to attach oneself to , that is, to touch (in many implied relations):—touch.

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Eden
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I love this attempt to explain away "do not touch 680 me":
quote:
It is a good question and I think the problem comes down more to the word that the KJV has used saying 'touch me not'. The Bible Knowledge Commentary explains saying the following for John 20:17-18.

"She may have embraced Him physically, for the Lord responded, Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to My brothers and tell them. . . . These words spoke of a new relationship, new relatives, and a new responsibility. Many wanted to 'hold onto' Jesus."

The KJV was perfectly justified to translate the Greek word "haptomai" (Strong's Concordance #680) in John 20:17 as "touch" as all 25 other occurrences of the word "haptomai" clearly means "touch". Below are the other times that "haptomai" are all translated "touch" (not counting its past tense "touched" which are all also "haptomai"(each verse below is abbreviated when possible):

Mat 9:21 ... If I may but touch 680 his garment ...

Mat 14:36 ... that they might only touch 680 the hem ...

Mar 3:10 ... insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch 680 him ...

Mar 5:28 ... if I may only touch 680 his clothes ...

Mar 6:56 ... and besought him that they might touch 680 if it were but the border of his garment ...

Mar 8:22 ... and besought him to touch 680 him.

Mar 10:13 ... And 2532 brought young children to him, that he should touch 680 them ...

Luk 6:19 And the whole multitude sought to touch 680 him ...

Luk 18:15 ... that he would touch 680 them ...

John 20:17 Then Jesus said to her, Touch 680 me not, for I am not yet ascended to my 3450 Father ...

1Cor 7:1 ... [It is] good for a man not to touch 680 a woman.

2Cor 6:17 ... touch 680 not the unclean [thing] ...

Col 2:21 (touch 680 not; taste not; handle not;

(Not counting the past tense "touched", which is also the same word "haptomai", above are all the instances of "haptomai 680" translated as "touch" in the New Testament. "Haptomai 680" is ONLY translated in the KJV New Testament as "touch" or "touched" or "touching".

So will you now make "don't cling to me" out of it?

love, Eden

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Carol Swenson
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I was having fun [wiggle7] Oh well, okay.
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Eden
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yeah ... a draw. [wiggle7]

love, Eden

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Carol Swenson
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A draw?

quote:
Eden futher wrote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus NEVER HAD A PROBLEM with people touching Him, and as compassionate as He is, He would have NEVER said to the woman, "stop clinging to me already!" because He must have known how astonishingly excited and happy and ecstatic she must have been in seeing Jesus resurrected
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nicely written, Eden, for it is absurd to think that "just because Jesus had now completed His mission on earth and was resurrected, that He suddenly would "mind that this woman was touching Him".

Carol Swenson replied to the above
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus permitted the other women to hold His feet (Matt. 28:9), and He did not forbid them.

That is NOT what I said there. Anyone reading this can scroll back and see.

quote:
To be sure, Carol Swenson has produced some good arguments, but it does not explain away the odd statement in John 20:17:

The KJV got it wrong. Admit it!

Robertson's Word Pictures (NT)

John 20:17

Touch me not (mh mou aptou). Present middle imperative in prohibition with genitive case, meaning "cease clinging to me" rather than "Do not touch me."

Question / Comment - When did Jesus ascend into Heaven?

When did Jesus return to the Father? Was it in Acts 1 or in John 20? In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary ' Touch me not for I am not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren an say unto them," I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God and to your God".'. If Jesus does not ascend to the Father in John 20, why is Mary not allowed to touch Him in verse 17, and yet in verse 27 Jesus tells Thomas to thrust his hand into His side? Did Jesus ascend to the Father more than once?

Thank- you.

Reply:

It is a good question and I think the problem comes down more to the word that the KJV has used saying 'touch me not'. The Bible Knowledge Commentary explains saying the following for John 20:17-18.

"She may have embraced Him physically, for the Lord responded, Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to My brothers and tell them. . . . These words spoke of a new relationship, new relatives, and a new responsibility. Many wanted to "hold onto" Jesus.

The KJV translation "Touch Me not," has caused many interpreters to wonder why He could not be "touched." The NIV translation is more accurate, for He certainly was not untouchable (cf. Matt. 28:9; John 20:27). Mary had lost Jesus once before (at His crucifixion) and it was natural to fear the loss of His presence again. Jesus said, in effect, "This (the physical contact) is not My real presence for the church. A new relationship will begin with My Ascension and the gift of the Holy Spirit to the church."

Jesus then explained the fact of the new relatives. He called His disciples His brothers. Earlier He had said they were friends: "I no longer call you servants . . . instead, I have called you friends" (15:15). Believers in Jesus become a part of Jesus’ family with God as their Father (cf. Heb. 2:11-12; Rom. 8:15-17, 29; Gal. 3:26). Mary’s new responsibility was to testify to His risen presence. She was the recipient of four special graces: to see angels; to see Jesus risen; to be the first to see Him alive; and to be a proclaimer of the good news.

Christians today are also the recipients of special grace; they too are given this new responsibility to witness to the world (cf. Matt. 28:16-20). So there wasn't anything wrong with actually touching Jesus before He had ascended to His Father. The command is better understood not to 'hold onto' Him or prevent Him from leaving again.

And as to when He went back to the Father, that is given in the Acts 1 passage that you mentioned.

All the best.

http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/JesusAscend.htm

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Eden
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Hello, Carol Swenson, Eden had written
quote:
Which part of "I ascend" do you not get?
And you answered
quote:
What part of He walked seven miles to Emmaus do YOU not get? (Luke 24:13-15)
Okay, let's look at that:

Luke 24
13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.

14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.

15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

Okay, all that means is that the ascension party in heaven was short; that after His resurrection, Jesus ascended to heaven to bring the blood ot heaven and to celebrate with the Father, and then Jesus was back to earth already where He joined the two men walking to Emmaus.

Eden had further said
quote:
As for [Carol's] comment, Are you adding to the Bible?", please note that John said: John 21:25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.

Amen.The Bible that we have is what WAS eventually written down, but it is clear from John that MANY more things happened that COULD have been written down but were not, only because what WAS writen was deemed to be sufficient to get people saved.

Carol Swenson replied
quote:
And happily we are not obligated to agree with what Eden makes up.
The Bible that we have today developed over time; there were many manuscripts floating around in all the outlying churches, and it became time to choose the most widely used and most reliable manuscripts so that all the churches would be reading and providing the same gospel. So just because certain things are not mentioned in the Bible, other than in brief statements like, "you go tell the brethren because I have not ascended to the Father yet", is all we got.

In addition, it is absurd to think that Jesus would tell the woman ON the day of His resurrection that "she should go tell the brethren because Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father yet", when:

(1) Jesus could have told the brethren Himself if He wasn't going anywhere for 40 days; and,

(2) if Jesus had in mind that He would actually still be here on earth for 40 days when He made the statement "you go tell the brethren because I have not yet ascended to the Father", it is absurd to think that He had in mind an ascension 40 days later when He said that to the woman.

Eden had further written
quote:
Hi, Carol Swenson, as for the exegesis of "DO NOT TOUCH ME" that you also posted (thank you), I find it to be VERY WEAK.
Carol Swenson replied
quote:
I didn’t know you were a Greek scholar...Are you?
Thanks to the hard work of Greek scholars who have gone before us, nowadays anyone can be a "Greek scholar" with a Strong's Concordance and a Lexicon and a Wigram's Englishman's Concordance. I'm also a linguist by education.

So let's look at this "touch Me not" in John 20:17, shall we?

Strong's Concordance

John 20:17 Jesus 2424 saith 3004 unto her 846, Touch 680 me 3450 not 3361 ...

Here are two more examples:

Mark 5:28 ... If I may but touch 680 his clothes 2440, I shall be whole 4982.

Matthew 9:29 Then He touched 680 their eyes ...

680 haptomai reflexive of 681; properly, to attach oneself to, i.e. to touch (in many implied relations):--touch.

The Englishman's Concordance, which shows ALL the ways that the word "haptomai" were translated in the KJV, show that the word "haptomai" occurred 25 times in the New Testament, and they are ALL tranlated as "touch" or "touched", and always meaning the normal "touch", as in "He touched their eyes" or "she touched His clothes", and so on.

Eden futher wrote:
quote:
Jesus NEVER HAD A PROBLEM with people touching Him, and as compassionate as He is, He would have NEVER said to the woman, "stop clinging to me already!" because He must have known how astonishingly excited and happy and ecstatic she must have been in seeing Jesus resurrected
Nicely written, Eden, for it is absurd to think that "just because Jesus had now completed His mission on earth and was resurrected, that He suddenly would "mind that this woman was touching 680 Him".

Carol Swenson replied to the above
quote:
Jesus permitted the other women to hold His feet (Matt. 28:9), and He did not forbid them.
Okay, let's look at that:

Matthew 28
1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.

9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Let's compare this with John 20:1-2

John 20
1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

Okay, John says that only Mary Magdalene was there, but according to Matthew, both Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were there, and while they were running to the disciples, Jesus met them, and this time they touched His feet.

Now, by the time either Mary Magdalene and/or the other Mary came to the sepulchre, the stone was already rolled away, and Jesus could conceivabley already have ascended and returned by the time He met Mary Magdalene AND the other Mary while they were running and they then WERE able to touch His feet.

On the other hand, according to John, Jesus just met Mary Magdalene and clearly there Jesus said, "Don't touch me BECAUSE I have not yet ascended to the Father".

There definitely seems to be a lot of contradiction between these two versions of what happened. One possibility is that both Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were at the grave, and that at that time He told Mary Magdalene "don't touch Me because I have not yet ascended to My Father", and while they both took off to rn to tell the disciples, Jesus ascended in a spiritual instant to the Father, and was back in time to meet the two women while they were still running. But this does mean that the party in heaven was very short, by earth standards, heh, heh ...

Carol Swenson continued
quote:
Why did He say to Mary, “Do not cling to Me”? One reason was that she would see Him again because He had not yet ascended to the Father. He remained on earth for forty days after His resurrection and often appeared to the believers to teach them spiritual truth (Acts 1:1-9). Mary had no need to panic; this was not her last and final meeting with the Lord.
While I admit to the contradiction between John 20 and Matthew 28, I find the reasoning in the above quote ludicrous. Mary would not have panicked, she would have been "ecstatic" and "rejoicing beyond belief" to see that her beloved Jesus WAS ALIVE!!! To suggest that she was "clinging to Jesus" to the point of Him having to tell her, "do not cling to me anymore, okay, because I'm not going anywhere for 40 days", is ludricous, plus it contradicts what Jesus said in John 20:17, "do not touch 680 me because I have not yet ascended to the Father".

Carol Swenson continued
quote:
How come every denomination that celebrates the Ascension celebrates it 40 days after the Resurrection?
I admit, there is something to be said for historical precedent. Probably also the early church celebrated the ascension that occurred at Bethany by the mount of Olives 40 days after Jesus's resurrection.

But that may have been because of they did not know what to do with the contradiction between John 20 and Matthew 28 ("do not touch me because I have not yet ascended to the Father"), and there is no doubt that Jesus ascended in the sight of the disciples from Bethany, so that ascension is definitely being celebrated.

But it also seems extremely improbable that when Jesus as the Son of man had completed His mission on earth to die for our sins and to resurrect from the grave, that Jesus would not have first returned to heaven to see His Father and be declared to be the Son of God again with power:

Romans 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

To be sure, Carol Swenson has produced some good arguments, but it does not explain away the odd statement in John 20:17:

John 20
17 Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me for I am not yet ascended to my Father[/b]: but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and to your Father and to My God and to your God.

18 Then Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that He had spoken these things to her.

So for now I declare it a draw. [Smile]

love, Eden

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Sometimes you are a very exasperating individual. Which part of "I ascend" do you not get?
What part of He walked seven miles to Emmaus do YOU not get? (Luke 24:13-15)

Some students feel that Jesus did return to the Father on that morning, and that was the ascension He was referring to; but no other New Testament passage corroborates this interpretation.

quote:
As for your comment, Are you adding to the Bible?, please note that John said:John 21:25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.

Amen.The Bible that we have is what WAS eventually written down, but it is clear from John that MANY more things happened that COULD have been written down but were not, only because what WAS writen was deemed to be sufficient to get people saved:

And happily we are not obligated to agree with what Eden makes up.

quote:
Hi, Carol Swenson, as for the exegesis of "DO NOT TOUCH ME" that you also posted (thank you), I find it to be VERY WEAK.
I didn’t know you were a Greek scholar...Are you?

quote:
Jesus NEVER HAD A PROBLEM with people touching Him, and as compassionate as He is, He would have NEVER said to the woman, "stop clinging to me already" because He must have known how astonishingly excited and happy and ecstatic she must have been in seeing Jesus resurrected.
Oh I see. So instead He tells her, “DO NOT TOUCH ME."

quote:
Plus, let's be clear, Jesus would NEVER have ADDED to the "stop clinging to me already" the phrase "because I have not yet ascended to the Father", that's an incongruous thing to say if it was just a matter of the woman clinging to Him in her exuberance.
Jesus permitted the other women to hold His feet (Matt. 28:9), and He did not forbid them. Why did He say to Mary, “Do not cling to Me”? One reason was that she would see Him again because He had not yet ascended to the Father. He remained on earth for forty days after His resurrection and often appeared to the believers to teach them spiritual truth (Acts 1:1-9). Mary had no need to panic; this was not her last and final meeting with the Lord.

(Where did you get the word “already”?).

quote:
One potential thing that could however have happened is that Jesus was "way too hot to handle still from having just been resurrected with glory power from God" and that "it could have killed her if she had touched Him at that point".
But when the women touched Him in the other Gospel account they were, what, wearing oven mittens?

Matthew 28:9 - 10 (NASB)
9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.”

How come every denomination that celebrates the Ascension celebrates it 40 days after the Resurrecton???

Acts 1:1 - 3 (NLT)
1 In my first book I told you, Theophilus, about everything Jesus began to do and teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven after giving his chosen apostles further instructions through the Holy Spirit. 3 During the forty days after his crucifixion, he appeared to the apostles from time to time, and he proved to them in many ways that he was actually alive. And he talked to them about the Kingdom of God.

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Carol Swenson
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becauseHElives [thumbsup2]

I'm looking forward to meeting you there!

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becauseHElives
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Carol great post [thumbsup2] , I'm 58 and can't wait [rapture]

quote:
What Will Our Glorified Bodies Be Like?
just like Yahshua's..... flesh and bones glorified!

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Eden
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Hi, Carol Swenson, as for the exegesis of "DO NOT TOUCH ME" that you also posted (thank you), I find it to be VERY WEAK. Jesus NEVER HAD A PROBLEM with people touching Him, and as compassionate as He is, He would have NEVER said to the woman, "stop clinging to me already" because He must have known how astonishingly excited and happy and ecstatic she must have been in seeing Jesus resurrected.

Plus, let's be clear, Jesus would NEVER have ADDED to the "stop clinging to me already" the phrase "because I have not yet ascended to the Father", that's an incongruous thing to say if it was just a matter of the woman clinging to Him in her exuberance.

One potential thing that could however have happened is that Jesus was "way too hot to handle still from having just been resurrected with glory power from God" and that "it could have killed her if she had touched Him at that point".

That's a possibility, but even if that was the case, then it would still make no sense for Jesus to add, "stop clinging to me already BECAUSE I have not yet ascended to the Father"; instead He would have said something, "Don't touch Me because I'm too hot to handle right now".

But, "after I have ascended to the Father" (while you go tell the brethren that I have resurrected), "then I can be touched again" because clearly over the next 40 days Jesus WAS able to be touched and handled "and clung too", etc.

love, Eden

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Eden
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Carol Swenson wrote
quote:
Are you adding to the Bible? Where does it say He went to rejoice with His Father and with the host of heaven about Jesus' SUCCESSFUL mission of salvation on earth?
Sometimes you are a very exasperating individual. Which part of "I ascend" do you not get?

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me for I am not yet ascended to my Father[/b]; but go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus said the above on the Sunday that He resurrected, right after He resurrected, and He is clearly saying to the woman, "You go talk to My brethren and tell them 'I ascend to the Father'", and also "DO NOT TOUCH ME because I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED TO THE FATHER".

If what you say is true that Jesus stayed on earth the entire time from His resurrection to His ascension 40 days later from Bethany on the mount of Olives, then He would to have said to everyone, everytime, DO NOT TOUCH ME FOR I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED TO THE FATHER.

As for your comment, Are you adding to the Bible?, please note that John said:

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

The Bible that we have is what WAS eventually written down, but it is clear from John that MANY more things happened that COULD have been written down but were not, only because what WAS writen was deemed to be sufficient to get people saved:

John 20:31
But these are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ[/b], the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

And it makes all the sense in the world that when Jesus said, "You go tell My brethren and tell them, I ascend to My Father", that there would have been GREAT REJOICING in heaven upon the RETURN OF THE SON TO THE FATHER on the day that Jesus SAID He was ascending when He told the woman to go speak to His brethren and to NOT TOUCH HIM because He had NOT YET ascended to the Father.

love, Eden

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"Touch Me Not"
By Gary F. Zeolla

Matt 28:9 - And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and HELD HIM by the feet, and worshipped him.

Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: HANDLE ME, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, TOUCH ME NOT; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God (all quotes from the KJV).

Mini-Greek, Grammar Lesson

It appears Matthew and Luke are saying that after His resurrection, Jesus could be "held" and "handled" while John is saying that He could not even be "touched." To answer this "apparent contradiction" will require first a mini-lesson in Greek grammar.

The Greek grammar book I used when I took Greek at Denver Seminary was: H.E. Dana and Julius Mantey. A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament.1 The following is taken from page 301 of this book:

(2) The Present Imperative in Prohibitions. The present tense is properly used for expressing continued action. A prohibition in the present imperative demands that action then in progress be stopped.

me krinete, ina me krithete
Stop judging, lest ye be judged. Mt 7:1

ego eklan . . . leyei moi, Me klaie
I was weeping; he says to me, Stop weeping. Rev 5:4,5.

The way the prohibitive, present imperative is translated in Dana and Mantey’s examples is exactly how we were taught to render this grammatical form at seminary. And it is how I have been rendering it ever since.

For instance, I found a translation of the book of Colossians I did a few years ago. In it, I rendered 2:16 as: "Therefore, stop letting anyone judge you in food or in drink, or in respect of a feast or a new moon or of Sabbaths." I rendered 3:9 as: "Stop lying to one another, having put off the old man with his deeds."

Now, to apply the above to the beginning of John 20:17. The verse also includes a prohibitive, present imperative: me mou haptou. It would be better rendered as, "Stop touching Me." The point? As Dana and Mantey indicated, "A prohibition in the present imperative demands that action then in progress be stopped."

So Mary is already touching Jesus. But Jesus is commanding her to stop. But why? Help in answering this question can be found by looking at the word rendered "touch."

Word Study

The Greek word rendered "touch" in the KJV is haptou .2 I looked it up in the two lexicons my professors at seminary recommended: Walter Baur's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Johannes Louw and Eugene Nida’s Greek-English Lexicon.

Baur definition that fits this context is, "touch, take hold of, hold." 3

Louw and Nida give two main definitions for this verb that fit this context: "hold on to" and "touch."4 For the former, they then give a more in-depth definition of: "to hold on to an object - ‘to hold on to, to retain in the hand, to seize.’" For the latter, the in-depth definition is, "to touch, with the implication of relatively firm contact - ‘to touch.’"5

In his commentary on the Gospel of John, Merril C. Tenny summarizes the lexical connotations of this verb as: "The verb hapto does not mean to touch with the tip of a finger to test whether an object is real or not but to ‘clutch’ or ‘grip.’" 6

So Mary was not just touching Jesus, she was holding Him, grasping Him, clinging to Him. Jesus is simply telling her to let go, enough is enough already.

Conclusion and Possible Objection

Putting all the above together, if I was translating the first part of this verse, I would probably render it as, "Stop holding Me…" or possibly, "Stop clinging to me…."

So Jesus is being "held" in Matthew; He is being "handled" in Luke; and He is being "held" or "clung to" in John. So there is no contradiction between the Gospels. In fact, the only reason there is even an "apparent contradiction" between these passages is because of the rather poor rendering of the KJV.

Compare, however, the translation of the NKJV, "Do not cling to Me…." Even without using "Stop" this rendering still has the sense that Jesus is commanding that Mary cease what she is already doing. I doubt very much I would say "Do not cling to me" to someone who was not even touching me!

Now, to anticipate a possible objection, if my translation above is how the verse is supposed to be rendered, why is it not rendered as such in English translations? First off, most modern-day versions do get the definition of the word correct. As indicated, the NKJV renders the word "cling to." The NIV and NRSV have "hold on to."

As for the prohibitive, present imperative, I did find two versions that properly rendered it: the NASB and Kenneth S. Wuest’s Expanded Translation. Both render this phrase the same as my second possibility above, "Stop clinging to me…."

http://www.dtl.org/bible/article/touch.htm

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quote:
It is very unlikely that Jesus would have stayed away from heaven for 40 more days BEFORE He went to rejoice with His Father and with the host of heaven about Jesus's SUCCESSFUL mission of salvation on earth.
Are you adding to the Bible? Where does it say He went to rejoice with His Father and with the host of heaven about Jesus' SUCCESSFUL mission of salvation on earth?

The Lord ascended in order to be glorified with God the Father and to glorify us with Himself. He goes in order to "prepare a place" for us and to take us also into the blessedness of God's presence. He goes to open the way for all flesh into the "heavenly sanctuary … the Holy Place not made by hands" (see Hebrews 8-10). He goes in order send the Holy Spirit to bear witness to Him and His gospel.

And remember, He spent part of the day until evening walking to Emmaus, a seven mile walk. Luke 24:13-31

quote:
To think that Jesus stayed another 40 days on earth first before presenting Himself to God is unthinkable.
It is the truth.

He ascended ONCE and never came back. He will not come back until the SECOND Coming.

quote:
He only had "flesh and bones" because some of the blood of Jesus had been shed on the earth, while Jesus took the rest of the blood to sprinkle the things in heaven.

The sacrifice of Jesus Christ was completed at the cross when He shouted, “It is finished!” (John 19:30). It was finished and as a result it is forever done. “It stands finished.” Nothing else needed to be done from the moment Christ died. It was a once-and-for-all completed sacrifice for sin.

It was in the shedding of His blood on the cross that Christ both ratified the New Testament and purchased the believer’s redemption The prominent term used in reference to the atonement in the New Testament is the “blood.” The blood of Christ indicates the all-encompassing redemptive work of Christ on the cross.

Since the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was completed on the cross at Calvary it is not correct to say that Christ offered His blood upon the heavenly mercy seat. Christ ascended into heaven because His work of atonement was finished, not in order to compete it. He did not need to present His blood in heaven because our redemption was already an accomplished fact (Hebrews 9:7-12, 24-25; 10:19; 13:12, 20; 1 John 2:2, etc). Christ did not have to make an offering for Himself like the Old Testament high priest did year after year on the Day of Atonement. He was already perfect in His relationship with the LORD God. There was no need for Christ to present blood in heaven for anything. He needed only to present Himself in heaven because He is the perfect High Priest.

Christ entered heaven after securing our eternal redemption at the cross—His ascension was the enthronement in heaven as the High Priest who had completed the work of redemption.

http://www.abideinchrist.com/selah/nov16.html

Christ IS the Mercy Seat.

The Greek word for Mercy Seat is 'hilasterion'. It is used in Romans 3:25 where Paul says (literally) that God presented Christ as a propitiation or 'mercy seat'. This means that Jesus Christ is the mercy seat.

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Carol Swenson wrote
quote:
For that matter, He had no blood to present; He had presented that on the cross when He was made sin for us. In His resurrection glory, Jesus was “flesh and bones” (Luke 24:39), not “flesh and blood.”
He only had "flesh and bones" because some of the blood of Jesus had been shed on the earth, while Jesus took the rest of the blood to sprinkle the things in heaven.

It is very unlikely that Jesus would have stayed away from heaven for 40 more days BEFORE He went to rejoice with His Father and with the host of heaven about Jesus's SUCCESSFUL mission of salvation on earth.

It is much more likely that Jesus meant to say to the woman by the tomb, "While you go talk to My brethren, I will ascend to the Father".

Hebrews 9
1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing.

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building,

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh.

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator lives

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God has enjoined unto you.

21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

I think therefore that it is much more likely that God the Father had Jesus come up immediately after His resurrection, and also that the woman could not "touch Jesus" or as you say, "hold Jesus" because Jesus had not ascended yet.

It is further possible that the woman was not allowed to touch Jesus by the tomb because Jesus had to remain the undefiled sacrificed Lamb of God which could NOT be touched by sinful humans until AFTER Jesus had first ascended and presented Himself to God on that very same day.

To think that Jesus stayed another 40 days on earth first before presenting Himself to God is unthinkable.

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me because I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to My Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

love, Eden

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quote:
Okay, if that's the case, why did Jesus say to the woman who met Jesus by the tomb right after Jesus's resurrection:

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me because ;I am not yet ascended to my Father: but, go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to My Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

"Do not touch Me" is a KJV translation. Many other translations say "Do not cling to me", or "Do not hold on to me", or "Stop clinging to me".

The point is not that He did not want people to touch Him before His ascension (40 days later) as if they would defile Him. The idea here is that He wanted her to understand that she didn't need to be afraid anymore.

quote:
I don't think that is correct. Jesus ascended on the Sunday of His resurrection to deliver the blood to heaven:

Some students feel that Jesus did return to the Father on that morning, and that was the ascension He was referring to; but no other New Testament passage corroborates this interpretation. To say that He was fulfilling the symbolism of the Day of Atonement and presenting the blood to the Father is, I think, stretching a type too far (Lev. 16). For that matter, He had no blood to present; He had presented that on the cross when He was made sin for us. In His resurrection glory, Jesus was “flesh and bones” (Luke 24:39), not “flesh and blood.” The Resurrection itself was proof that the work of redemption had been completed (“raised because of our justification”—Rom. 4:24-25, NASB). What more could He do?
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Carol Swenson wrote to Eden
quote:
He had not yet ascended to the Father. He remained on earth for forty days after His resurrection.
Okay, if that's the case, why did Jesus say to the woman who met Jesus by the tomb right after Jesus's resurrection:

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me because ;I am not yet ascended to my Father: but, go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to My Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Here we see that the woman could not touch Him BECAUSE He had not yet ascended to the Father, and then Jesus further says to her, "You go to My brethen", and then He adds, "I ascend to My Father".

Doesn't that mean that WHILE she went to speak to His brethren, Jesus ASCENDED to the Father to bring the shed blood to heaven? Because THAT had to be done rightaway.

And lastly, the fact that this woman could at first NOT touch Jesus was BECAUSE He had not ascended to the Father yet, but then a week later Thomas was told to TOUCH Jesus, which shows that Jesus HAD ascended because now He had a TOUCHABLE body?

But I think the most convincing evidence is that Jesus told to woman to go speak to His brethren, clearly WHILE Jesus ascended to heaven to present the blood.

The ascension that occurred in plain sight of the disciples at Bethany on the mount of Olives was in effect at least His second ascension, but that ascension was NOT to bring the bloos but to go sit at the right hand of the Father until Jesus's enemies are made into His footstool.

So, to repeat what Carol Swenson wrote
quote:
He had not yet ascended to the Father. He remained on earth for forty days after His resurrection.
I don't think that is correct. Jesus ascended on the Sunday of His resurrection to deliver the blood to heaven:

Hebrews 9
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

love, Eden

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He had not yet ascended to the Father. He remained on earth for forty days after His resurrection.

The number forty is often associated with probation, trial, or discipline. It rained for 40 days and 40 nights during the flood. The Israelites, Moses, Elijah, and Jesus all underwent 40 day trials, as did the 12 spies in the promised land. Moses spent 40 years in Midian after killing the Egyptian soldier, and the Israelites endured a 40 year testing in the wilderness after turning back. Jonah gave Nineveh a 40 day warning of judgment.

More about the number 40
http://bibletimeline.net/biblehistoryblog/what-is-the-meaning-of-the-number-forty-40-in-the-bible/

Also, Christ Jesus ascended from the Mount of Olives for a reason.

I don't know if you read the Questions & Answers board, but there are a couple of articles there about the ascension of Christ.

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Carol Swenson wrote to Eden
quote:
Thomas was not there that night.
I know he wasn't. I was in a hurry and did not have time to first make clear that the Thomas incident occurred a few days later. The point was that I needed someone who actually touched Jesus after His return from heaven, and the Thomas incident was the most well-known. But you are correct in your observation.

love, Eden

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Many translations say 'Do not cling' or 'Do not hold on to me' instead of 'Do not touch me'.

Jesus permitted the other women to hold His feet (Matt. 28:9), and He did not forbid them. Why did He say to Mary, “Do not cling to Me”? One reason was that she would see Him again because He had not yet ascended to the Father. He remained on earth for forty days after His resurrection and often appeared to the believers to teach them spiritual truth (Acts 1:1-9). Mary had no need to panic; this was not her last and final meeting with the Lord.

A second reason is that she had a job to do—to go tell His brethren that He was alive and would ascend to the Father. “He is not ashamed to call them brethren” (Heb. 2:11). “I will declare Thy name unto My brethren” (Ps. 22:22). He had called His own servants (John 13:16) and friends (John 15:15), but now He called them brethren. This meant that they shared His resurrection power and glory.

Some students feel that Jesus did return to the Father on that morning, and that was the ascension He was referring to; but no other New Testament passage corroborates this interpretation. To say that He was fulfilling the symbolism of the Day of Atonement and presenting the blood to the Father is, I think, stretching a type too far (Lev. 16). For that matter, He had no blood to present; He had presented that on the cross when He was made sin for us. In His resurrection glory, Jesus was “flesh and bones” (Luke 24:39), not “flesh and blood.” The Resurrection itself was proof that the work of redemption had been completed (“raised because of our justification”—Rom. 4:24-25, nasb). What more could He do?

Our Lord never used the phrases “our Father” or “our God.” His relationship to the Father was different from that of the disciples, and He was careful to make that distinction. We say “our Father” and “our God” because all believers belong to the same family and have an equal standing before God. He reminded Mary and the other believers that God was their Father and that He would be with the Father in heaven after His ascension. In His Upper Room message, He had taught them that He would return to the Father so that the Spirit might come to them.

Though it was the same Jesus, only in a glorified body, it was not quite the same relationship. We must be careful not to relate to Christ “after the flesh” (2 Cor. 5:16), that is, relate to Him as though He were still in His state of humiliation. He is today the exalted Son of God in glory, and we must honor Him as such. The juvenile familiarity that some people display in public when they testify, pray, or sing only reveals that they have little understanding of Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 5:16. When John was with Jesus at the table, he leaned against His bosom (John 13:23); but when John saw Jesus on the Isle of Patmos, he fell at His feet as dead! (Rev. 1:17)

How did our Lord transform His disciples’ fear into courage? For one thing, He came to them. We do not know where these ten frightened men met behind locked doors, but Jesus came to them and reassured them. In His resurrection body, He was able to enter the room without opening the doors! It was a solid body, for He asked them to touch Him—and He even ate some fish (Luke 24:41-43). But it was a different kind of body, one that was not limited by what we call “the laws of nature.”

(Wiersbe)

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Thomas was not there that night.

John 20 (NIV)
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

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The article posted by Carol Swenson said
quote:
Now, in comparison to both Matthew 17 and Revelation 1, it appears that the risen Christ, before his ascension, was not yet fully glorified.
Before His ascension, His body was probably NOT fully gloridied because He said to Mary M.,

John 20:17
Jesus sad to her, DO NOT TOUCH ME, for I am not yet ascended to My Father ...

But later that same evening, Jesus was back on earth and now He was apparently fully glorified:

John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them, Peace be unto you.

So Jesus could make a roundtrip from earth to heaven and back to earth at least within about 12 hours from dawn to dusk. But probably Jesus was, at it were, instanteously from earth into heaven, and He just lingered in heaven with all the heavenly host as they "had themselves a parteeee"!!!

Revelation 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

But at some point that evening Jesus had to say, "Okay everyone! It's time for me to leave" and after many congratulatory hugs, Jesus returned to Jerusalem that evening, fully glorified.

And this time, Jesus COULD be touched:

John 20:27
Then said He to Thomas, Reach here your finger and behold my hands; and reach here your hand and thrust it into My side; and be not faithless, but believing.

love, Eden

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Carol Swenson
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Yep [Smile]
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MentorsRiddle
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Yep [Smile]

I forget our ages are in our profile if we choose for it to be [Smile]

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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Carol Swenson
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July 25, 1982
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MentorsRiddle
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Hehehe.

I've often wondered how old everyone on this board is.

I've just turned 27 years young. [Big Grin]

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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Carol Swenson
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I should have kept my mouth shut [Big Grin]
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MentorsRiddle
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quote:
I just turned 60. A new body sure sounds good to me.

You're right - we can't even imagine His beauty and glory and perfection...

You know how you read a book and you see characters in your mind a certain way -- then they make a movie of that book and the characters don't even look like what you thought they did in your head?

Well reading this message board, I've always thought of you as like a 30-35 year old, hehehehe.

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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Carol Swenson
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I just turned 60. A new body sure sounds good to me.

You're right - we can't even imagine His beauty and glory and perfection...

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MentorsRiddle
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I love this post.

I can't wait for the day when we receive our new bodies.

I think it will be something beyond what we can conceive.

Even reading the descriptions of Christ's glorified body, I know our minds can't beging to imagine it's beauty.

God-Bless & Thanks for the Post!

~Matt

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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Carol Swenson
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 - What Will Our Glorified Bodies Be Like?


The Glorified Christ

The Lord Jesus Christ...will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. (Philippians 3:20-21)

We've established that Christ's resurrected body, before his ascension, was quite normal in appearance. But what is Christ's "glorious body" like? We are given a picture on the Mount of Transfiguration: "There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light" (Matthew 17:2). The Transfiguration appears to have given us a preview of Christ's glorified body.

John describes the glorified Christ he saw in the present Heaven:

I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." (Revelation 1:12-18)

Now, in comparison to both Matthew 17 and Revelation 1, it appears that the risen Christ, before his ascension, was not yet fully glorified. If he would have been glorified, surely his identity would have been immediately apparent to Mary Magdalene (John 20:14), the disciples on the Emmaus road (Luke 24:15-16), and Peter and the apostles when they saw him on the shore (John 21:4).

Consider one of the apostle Paul's reports of encountering the glorified Christ on the road to Damascus: "A great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' And I answered, 'Who are you, Lord?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.' Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me....I could not see because of the brightness of that light" (Acts 22:6-11, ESV).

It appears that Paul's unredeemed eyes were not yet ready to behold the glorified Christ. This is in contrast to Stephen, who saw the glorified Christ at God's right hand, but apparently was not blinded: "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 'Look,' he said, 'I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God' " (Acts 7:55-56).

Certainly, the glorified Christ will be by far the most glorious being in Heaven. Yet, as we will see, Scripture indicates that we too, in a secondary and derivative way, will reflect God's glory in physical brightness.

Scripture speaks of the likeness of Adam and the likeness of Christ, making some distinction between them: "And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven" (1 Corinthians 15:49). Christ will remain a man, but his deity that was once veiled in his humanity will shine through it. Because of the Fall and the Curse, we have never been or seen human beings who are fully functional as God's image-bearers, conveying the brightness and majesty of his being. But that day is coming. Christ, the God-man, the new head of our human race, will be the ultimate image-bearer, fully conveying the brightness and majesty of the Almighty.

Note, however, that the difference between Adam and Christ, which Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 15:45-49, is not that one was a physical being and the other wasn't. It was that Adam was under sin and the Curse, and Christ was untouched by sin and the Curse. Jesus was and is a human being, "in every respect like us" (Hebrews 2:17, NLT), except with respect to sin. So although we should recognize that our resurrection bodies will be glorious in ways that our current bodies are not, we should also realize that those bodies will continue to be—in both the same and in greater ways—the functional physical bodies that God designed for us from the beginning.

Of the Dust of the Earth

After reading the first printing of this book [Heaven], one Bible teacher expressed his disagreement with my belief that there will be a fundamental continuity between our present bodies and our resurrection bodies. His understanding is that our resurrection bodies will not be earthly, as our present bodies are. He believes they will not contain DNA or any genetic or physical ties to our current bodies.

In support of his position, he cited 1 Corinthians 15:47-48, which says, "The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven."

Paul's point here, I believe, is not that Christ's body wasn't "of dust" but that Adam's was. Indeed, if Christ's body wasn't "of dust," if he had no genetic relationship with Adam, then he would not be fully human, and he would not be Messiah, the Son of Man. He is—not merely was, but is—a descendant of Adam. He is the last Adam, not a non-Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45).

When viewed in context, "dust of the earth" seems to refer to more than the first man's origin, and at points appears to be associated with mortality and corruption. The man of dust, who was human only, succumbed to temptation; the man from Heaven, who is both human and divine, could not and did not.

Can one be "of dust" yet not under sin and death? Yes. Adam was, until the Fall. But he was subject to temptation, with the potential to succumb, whereas one day, when fully redeemed, human beings will not be.

Christ, as the last Adam, is certainly more than Adam, and far greater than Adam, for he came from Heaven. But he did in fact become a man, and was therefore of the earth. God originally made man from the earth. That is intrinsic to humanity, and Christ is fully human.

Christ's resurrection and glorification did not negate his genetic tie to his ancestors. They do not mean he is no longer a Jew, no longer of Abraham's seed, or no longer fully human. He who is tied to the earth in terms of his humanity will rule the earth for eternity.

Christ is and will forever remain both God (from Heaven) and man (of earth).

I will grant that if 1 Corinthians 15:47 were the only verse we had, then it could be legitimately interpreted as saying our resurrection bodies won't be physical or organically related to our current bodies. But it is not the only passage we have, and the other passages simply do not allow us to conclude that Christ's resurrection body did not have actual physical continuity to the old, and was in that sense "not of dust." Surely the risen and glorified Christ remains a descendant of Adam, Abraham, and David. Indeed, it is difficult to understand how he could hold to his claim to Messiahship if this were not the case.

The nail prints in Christ's hands and feet are the strongest possible affirmation that the same earthly body that was crucified is now the same heavenly body that was raised. "It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Luke 24:39).

"Heavenly" transcends "earthly" but does not negate it. The earthly becomes heavenly, not losing its original properties but gaining much more. (It loses the properties that came with the Curse, of course, but those were not its original properties.)

In 1 Corinthians 15, the Resurrection is repeatedly depicted as overcoming the Curse. Our bodies in their present condition are referred to as perishable, corrupted, dishonorable, and weak in relationship to the death which results in burial. The passage culminates in verses 51-57, which speak of the sounding of the last trumpet, at which time the perishable will put on the imperishable, and the mortal will put on immortality. Then death will be swallowed up in victory. Its sting will be forever removed. Why? Because sin will be removed ("the sting of death is sin").

This great passage about bodily resurrection does not simply focus on a new state and a new life, but also on the reversal of the Curse, and the conquest of sin and death. With all its allusions to what is new, it is nonetheless a passage of restoration of the old. It introduces glorious newness—but before anything else, it conquers all that sin and death and the Curse bring to humanity, human relationships and activities (including culture), and the earth itself. God will restore us and the earth to what he made us to be. Then, in resurrection and glorification, he will take what was and make it far greater yet.

The Promise of Imperishable Bodies

When Paul speaks of our resurrection bodies, he says, "The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).

The following chart summarizes the contrasts in this passage:

EARTHLY BODY
Sown a perishable body
Sown in dishonor
Sown in weakness
Sown a natural body

RESURRECTION BODY
Raised an imperishable body
Raised in glory
Raised in power
Raised a spiritual body

When Paul uses the term "spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:44), he is not talking about a body made of spirit, or an incorporeal body—there is no such thing. Body means corporeal: flesh and bones. The word spiritual here is an adjective describing body, not negating its meaning. A spiritual body is first and foremost a real body or it would not qualify to be called a body. Paul could have simply said, "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spirit," if that were the case. Judging from Christ's resurrection body, a spiritual body appears most of the time to look and act like a regular physical body, with the exception that it may have (and in Christ's case it does have) some powers of a metaphysical nature; that is, beyond normal physical abilities.

Paul goes on to say, "And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable....We will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: 'Death has been swallowed up in victory.' 'Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?' " (1 Corinthians 15:49-50, 52-55).

When Paul says that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," he's referring to our flesh and blood as they are now: cursed and under sin. Our present bodies are fallen and destructible, but our future bodies—though still bodies in the fullest sense—will be untouched by sin and indestructible. They will be like Christ's resurrection body—both physical and indestructible.

One Bible student told me that he couldn't believe that the risen Christ might have DNA. But why not? Who created DNA in the first place? Christ explicitly said that his body was of flesh and bones. Flesh and bones have DNA. There is no reason to believe that his new body doesn't. Is Christ a former descendant of Abraham and David, or is the glorified Christ in Heaven still their descendant? I believe his claim to rulership in the Millennium and on the New Earth depends in part on the fact that he remains, and will always remain, an actual, physical descendant of Abraham and David.

A body need not be destructible in order to be real. Our destructibility is an aberration of God's created norm. Death, disease, and the deterioration of age are products of sin. Because there was no death before the Fall, presumably Adam and Eve's original bodies were either indestructible or self-repairing (perhaps healed by the tree of life, as suggested in Revelation 22:2). Yet they were truly flesh and blood.

Scripture portrays resurrection as involving both fundamental continuity and significant dissimilarity. We dare not minimize the dissimilarities—for our glorification will certainly involve a dramatic and marvelous transformation. But, in my experience, the great majority of Christians have underemphasized continuity. They end up thinking of our transformed selves as no longer being ourselves, and the transformed Earth as no longer being the earth. In some cases, they view the glorified Christ as no longer being the same Jesus who walked the earth—a belief that early Christians recognized as heresy.

Many of us look forward to Heaven more now than we did when our bodies functioned well. Joni Eareckson Tada says it well: "Somewhere in my broken, paralyzed body is the seed of what I shall become. The paralysis makes what I am to become all the more grand when you contrast atrophied, useless legs against splendorous resurrected legs. I'm convinced that if there are mirrors in heaven (and why not?), the image I'll see will be unmistakably 'Joni,' although a much better, brighter Joni."

Inside your body, even if it is failing, is the blueprint for your resurrection body. You may not be satisfied with your current body or mind—but you'll be thrilled with your resurrection upgrades. With them you'll be better able to serve and glorify God and enjoy an eternity of wonders he has prepared for you.

(Randy Alcorn)

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator


 
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