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Author Topic: Simply put, what says the scripture?
Eden
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And in yet another Old Testament figure, only Moses was asked to come up to God in the mount, but the children of Israel were told to get away from the mount, and even the animals were told not to graze close to the mount:

Exodus 23
2And Moses alone shall come near the LORD: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.

Exodus 19:12
And you shall set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that you do not go up into the mount or touch the border of it: whosoever touches the mount shall be surely put to death.

Exodus 19:13
There shall not a hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet sounds long, they shall come up to the mount.

Here in figure, Moses alone was ready to meet the Lord on the mount, that is, to hear what the Spirit says to the church, while the children of Israel were told to stay away, which represent that the Israelites still minded the things of the flesh.

And not even the animals were allowed to graze near the mount; the animals represented the base desires of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and of the ears and of the mouth.

Moses alone was meek enough to be able to listen to and hear from God:

Numbers 12:3
(Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

To be meek means to no longer retaliate to what people did or said to him.

As for the people, they said:

Exodus 32:23
For they said to me [Aaron], Make us gods which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we don't know what has become of him.

Numbers 14
4 And they said one to another, Let us make a captain, and let us return into Egypt.

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?

In another Old Testament figure, Jacob wanted to ascend Mount Bethel and he told the people to do three things:

Genesis 35:2
Then Jacob said to his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments.

(1) Put away the strange gods that are among you; that is, throw all all strange affections and attachments by the soul no longer cooperating with the flesh without input from the spirit; to no longer "mind the things of the flesh";

(2) Be clean, be clean from "leaning upon your own understanding";

(3) And change your garments; meaning that God wil exchange your old garments with new garments as you begin to clothe yourself with the Divine Counsel from above, through the Spirit of God which dwells in mount Bethel, the house of God.

The old human or soul understanding learned from Adam must be cast aside, as one is stripped of one's old desires, and the soul is brought into a new state of knowing and profound delight, as all other images and ways of knowing are cast aside as inadequate and inept.

love, Eden

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Eden
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And Old Testament picture of whether we have our minds still set on the things of the flesh that we were always used to, or whether we have our mind set now on the things of the Spirit, can be found at:

Exodus 16
3 And the children of Israel said to them [to Moses and Aaron], Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt when we sat by the fleshpots and when we did eat bread to the full; for you have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.

The flour or bread that the Israelites had brought with them, from where?, from Egypt, which is a type of the world, had finally run out, and it was not until the bread from Egypt had run out, that God began to give them the bread from heaven, which is a figure of receiving our bread now from God through the Holy Spirit which is given to us to be able to receive this bread from heaven:

Exodus 16
4 Then said the LORD to Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

God will not just "give" them bread from heaven, but even "rain" bread from heaven for them, and they shall "gather of it at a certain rate each day", as we find also in the New Testament:

Luke 11:3
Give us day by day our daily bread.

And so God gave them bread from heaven, day by day ... but after a while, they got "tired" of always "eating the same thing":

The people were tired of the manna from heaven and wanted to have experience some of those pleasures again that they had in Egypt, which is a figure of the world:

Numbers 11
4 And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?

5 We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick,

6 But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.

Numbers 14:4
And they said one to another, Let us make a captain, and let us return into Egypt.

Numbers 11
5 For we remember the fish which we ate in Egypt freely; the cucumbers and the melons and the leeks and the onions and the garlick.

Psalm 78
29 So they did eat, and were well filled: for He gave them their own desire;

30 For they were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,

31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.

Romans 6:21
What fruit had you then in those things whereof you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?

And this is also the meaning of:

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it.

The person who continues to "lean upon his own understanding" shall reap death because the soul cannot see everything like God can. But the person who begins to lean on the Spirit which sees everything, that person shall find his true life.

1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God ...

love, Eden

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Eden
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Hi, Copper25, Eden had written
quote:
But initially, when a person is "in the process of being saved", there is a "repentance", and that repentance has to be where the soul recognizes that this self-rule by the soul is all wrong and sinful and leads to bad consequences, so the soul "repents" and says, "Okay, God, I recognize that You know best because You can see everything from heaven while I can only see in part, therefore I now defer to You to guide me in the way I should go".
And you wrote
quote:
By this, I suppose you mean the inner man of the person right?
No, I don't mean the inner man because the inner man refers to the spirit of man. I mean the soul. When the soul begins to read the Word of God, the soul notices that "something else is stirring in him" because the words of the Bible are spirit:

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life.

Through reading or hearing the Word of God, the soul discovers that he has a apirit which has lain idle or unused in him since Adam and Eve decided to inflate their soul-guided life at the expense of the spirit-guided life.

When the soul begins to read the Word of God, his SPIRIT is stirred or quickened, and he, the soul, furthermore learns from the Word of God that he is sinning by operating his own life without input from the spirit.

So the soul repents and says to God, "Lord, from now on I repent from running my own life from the soul-level and I now will restore the hierarchy which Adam had before he sinned, namely, God speaks to the Holy Spirit that is placed in me (upon repentance) and the Holy Spirit relays to my spirit of man (which has been idle or unused all this time), and my spirit of man relays that information to the soul (which is me, the "I" who decides), and then the soul gets to decide whether to implement what the soul has just heard from his spirit, OR the soul can implement its own ideas again ("lean on its own understanding again") and implement an "idea of the flesh":

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?

Romans 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.

The inner man refers to the spirit of man which has been lying dormant within Adamic men because Adam decided to run his own life from the soul, without input from the spirit, so that the spirit lay idle and unused within the descendants of Adam, until they repent?

And what do they repent of? Of running their own life like Adam from the soul and they BECOME WILLING to again "live their life according to what the Spirit says". At that point of repentance, God grants them the Holy Spirit which quickens their spirit of man, so that God can talk to the man again, through the Spirit or the inner man.

The soul agrees and wills to let the counsels from the Spirit run his life again, so the soul waits upon the Lord in heaven to speak to his spirit wirelessly by way of the Holy Spirit, and then the Counsel of God is relayed from God's Spirit to the spirit of man, and the spirit of man relays it to the soul, and then soul gets to decide, from moment to moment, whether to implement what God just said, or to implement his own idea again.

In the meantime, the flesh (the body) has its own ideas and habits that IT wants fulfilled, so the flesh of body tugs at the soul's sleeve to say, "here, let's do this!", so the soul has to continuously decided whether to "wait upon the Lord" or to "lean upon his own understanding".

Those saved people who do not read/hear the Word of God AFTER being saved know very little about how God operates and what God wants to do for them once they are saved, so for instance they do not learn from the Word that God wants to:

Psalm 32:8
I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you shall go: I will guide you with MY eye.

And so, even a saved person, if they do not read or hear enough of the Word of God, will not know that God wants to "teach them in the way that they shall go", and so they have "no confidence in the spirit" and he continues to lean upon his own understanding:

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?

Romans 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.

At the soul level reside the mind and the will and the emotions; even after the soul has repented and is saved and has received the Holy Spirit, the soul still needs to exercise his will each day to remind himself that he must "wait upon the Lord" and "not lean on his own understanding", by saying to God, "Okay, God, please instruect me and teach me in the way that I should go today; thank You, Lord", and then TRUST that God is indeed going to do that for him, and then God will follow through on His promise and WILL guide the person, just as Jesus was guided:

John 5:19
Then Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do: for whatsoever things He [the Father] does, these also does the Son likewise.

John 8:28
Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things.

And that's how it should be with us; if the soul continues to "mind the things of the flesh" it leads to death; but if the soul beginsn to "mind the things of the Spirit" it leads to life and life more abundantly.

love, Eden

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Copper25
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I apologize for the spans of my post. They tend not to have just one short part. [Smile]

First, Brother Paul, I agree, the whole scripture should be looked at, each scripture taken into account. Certainly, that is where this verse come in.

Proverbs 2

2 So as to incline thine ear unto wisdom, And apply thy heart to understanding;

3 Yea, if thou cry after discernment, And lift up thy voice for understanding;

4 If thou seek her as silver, And search for her as for hid treasures:

5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of Jehovah, And find the knowledge of God.


Eden

You said

quote:
But initially, when a person is "in the process of being saved", there is a "repentance", and that repentance has to be where the soul recognizes that this self-rule by the soul is all wrong and sinful and leads to bad consequences, so the soul "repents" and says, "Okay, God, I recognize that You know best because You can see everything from heaven while I can only see in part, therefore I now defer to You to guide me in the way I should go".

By this, I suppose you mean the inner man of the person right?

But, Is not according to scipture, the natural man is carnal internally?

This is the heart of a man, described by scripture:

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

According to strong

Heart

A form of H3824; the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect

Eden, think about it, why do you think God says in Ezekiel (36:26) "I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

The heart of man, that is symbollic of everything that the inner man is composed of, and is like the flesh; wicked, God hating, and resist the spiritual truth. The heart of a man is so corrupt that God refuses to work with it; and instead gives us an entirly new heart.

Natural man's heart (core of his being) is unsujectable to God. The natural man is carnal.

Therefore I can shout the Gospel to a sea of people for 24 hours, BUT UNLESS the Holy Spirit moves to bring conviction upon their hearts, none will come to true repentance.

Remember, man does have a heart of stone.

Note about the Holy Spirit

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me

When someone has been convicted, guiltiness becomes a weight on their soul where the person realizes that he/she is dead in their iniquities, guilty before a righteous God as to say

Psa 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.


" in their inner man, it is because of the Holy Spirit. It is because God Almighty has done a work in that person.

It is much more then saying "I am wrong and you are right"!


Eden, you said

quote:
But that saved person needs to continue in that repentance and unfortunately, through laziness or whatever, often the soul still continues to choose the pleasures of this world (worldly books, worldly movies, worldly music) and thus the soul remains mired in the flesh.

I declare this up front, I am not try to say "always saved" or "never saved"

Nor am I say that those who are truley born again don't sin.

Jesus in that great sermon on the mount said this (Mat 7:16) "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

Look at our country (Many think that they are born again, yet living exactly as the wordly)!

Look at modern day Christianity teachings(many of these teachingssay one can live just like the world and be saved)!

(I may extend this way past wordly books, music, and movies) Eden, the secound quote of what you said describes a massive amount of people who claim to be in the Christians, yet show absolutly no sign of regeneration.

Now, let's say I bring you a 2ft by 2 ft box in perfect condition and I said "O, my child was playing with a be be gun and shot it ninty times through": Would you believe me? No, you would say I was lying. If I kept saying "No, this really happened", you would eventually say "There is no way your son could have shot this box 90 times with a be be gun and it still be the same perfect condition. it would certainly be changed"

Does God have less power than little be be gun?!!

I say this, if a man confesses Christ, but then their is absolutly no change, this man was never saved!

Can God do a great work of regeneration that has absolutly no effect? This is absolutly absurd!

If that person claims to be a genuine, born again Christian, but lives exactly like the world. I tell you truly, that this man does not know Christ, nor has he been regenerated; but rather, this person has both feet planted over hell still and is dead in their transgressions.

Doth the scripture speak in vain?

Heb 12:8 But B]if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.[/B]
(I know where this above verse could lead, but this was not its intent)

Matthew 7:17 "a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit."

There is absolutly no way that God can change the core of that being, giving him a new heart (the feelings, the will and even the intellect), and there be absolutly no change!

If that were the case, would God then be saying "Uh o, MY POWER did not have any effect at all on this person". This will NEVER be the case.

Frankly, if one has no change in their attitude toward sin; if their is no conviction after sinning in their life, no confession of sins, It is strong evidence that they are not born again.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Here is the difference between a believer and a person only claiming to be. Notice the huge contrast between these verse. The believer will have conviction over their sins and will confess them to God.

Let's say that I were to loose my cool for a moment and say something harsh to my brother in Christ. I feel bad for a moment after I get in the car, but I leave it alone. Then It starts becoming heavy on my heart. As the hours go by, conviction, conviction, guilt, guilt starts to press upon my heart. Finally because of the great amount of guilt I confess my sin and then I call my brother in Christ and apologize.

Do you see the huge difference? If one has no remorse over sins they commit, feel no urge to confess to God, for 2 weeks..4 weeks.. 3 months after they say they were born again, then this shows that they were not changed.

Again,

Let us say that my freind was an alcoholic and loved fornication. One day I take him to church with me. The minister just happens to preach the Gospel. My friend then says at the alter call "Why not, I will give it a shot". so he walks up to the alter and talks to the minsiter. Then he says "I have decided to give my life to Christ".

Then I recieve a call with in the next week. As I am talking to my friend, he tells me that this last week has been great. I ask "How?". Then he tells me that he has been messing around with some women and getting drunk at the bar every night. Was he ever born-again? No, simply no

Scriptural evidence (I will just show 2 parts from 1 John (though there are more)

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Notice the contrast

Things to Note

1) Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

Will God, who IS LIGHT, have fellowship with him that walks in darkness? No. Look at 1 Jhon 1:6 very carefully, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie". Which means that you CANNOT have fellowship with God and walk in darkness. If you walk in darkness, you WILL NOT have fellowship with God.

2) The peson that walks in darkness IS NOT cleansed by the blood of Christ! In other words, this person's still retains there iniquity. Like the Egyptians in the book of Exodus that did not have the blood of a lamb on their house post when God passed by, he is lined up with death. Every second inching toward his death (damnation)

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Now first, this verse is not speaking of perfection, else why would we be given this verse?

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Second, the word "know" does not mean "hey, I saw president bush on TV, I know the president" but rather means more of an intimate relationship like one between husband and wife.

What 1 John 2-3 are saying in part is this. "Does your life, the way you are conducting yourself, have conformity to the will of God?"

Note what Jesus said (Mat 7:21) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Now was Jesus talking about a works salvation here? NOT AT ALL

for man can never be justifed by works because (Isa 64:6) "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

So, then what did Jesus mean? (in short) Those that have truely been transformed, regenerated, will have conformity to the will of God in their lifes!

Thus from all of this, we have established on scriptural grounds that when on is regenerated by God, when God gives them a new heart, their WILL be change.

Again, This is NOT intended to touch the "saved always" or "not saved always" debate, but rather to prove that when God regenerates a person, there WILL be change.

In Christ name
Love Daniel

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Eden
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Hi, Copper25, you wrote
quote:
I believe that God does not take away our free will when we are regenerated, but rather shifts our will to want conformity to his will, to long to know God, to want the ways of righteousness.
Even when we are regenerated, we still have our free will to choose what to do.

But initially, when a person is "in the process of being saved", there is a "repentance", and that repentance has to be where the soul recognizes that this self-rule by the soul is all wrong and sinful and leads to bad consequences, so the soul "repents" and says, "Okay, God, I recognize that You know best because You can see everything from heaven while I can only see in part, therefore I now defer to You to guide me in the way I should go".

That is the initial repentance and the person is saved. But that saved person needs to continue in that repentance and unfortunately, through laziness or whatever, often the soul still continues to choose the pleasures of this world (worldly books, worldly movies, worldly music) and thus the soul remains mired in the flesh.

Even after being saved, it is still up to the soul to continue to choose and want God with his will and to say, "Lord, not my will be done, but Your will", meaning, "please guide my steps with Your Holy Spirit".

The free will is still there and needs to be exercised daily as to what I'm going to do with it. Am I going to the movies or am I going to read some more in God's Word?

Because the truth is, that our love for God is fired up by the Word of God. If a person after salvation does NOT read the Word of God and still continues to listen to heavy metal music and to read worldly books and watch worldly movies which mention NOTHING ABOUT GOD, eventually that person will just "forget about God" and slide back into who he was before he was saved.

As the scripture says:

Matthew 15:8
This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me.

Proverbs 23:8
The morsel which you have eaten shall you vomit up, and lose your sweet words.

Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool returns to his folly.

Peter 2
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

22 But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the pig that was washed has returned to her wallowing in the mire.

Yes, this happens to saved people too (but let't not return to the once saved always saved discussion, LOL).

love, Eden

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Brother Paul
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Dear Copper,

No need to apologize in the slightest, your posts are great. When I was saved I was taught the BIble from a Calvinist perspective and though I thought I grasped opposing views I actually was convinced...my viewe changed when I really studied the Bible using the earliest Church fathers as my commentary. the Lord led me to understand that though they are not the Scriptures these people were the students of John, Peter, and Paul and thus know better what id true apostolic doctrine than all the modern theologians rolled together. Are they perfect? No! They are humans saved by grace and filled with the Holy Spirit. But here is the illumination I recieved. Unequivocally NONE are Calvinists...ALL teach a free will approach along side Predestination and they were taught by the very Apostles and their immediate Students whom they personally ordained as the first Bishops of the Church. So yes! Even faith is a fruit of the spirit and not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, but the Lord gives the measure of faith to ALL men (Romans 12:3). NBot just some leaving otherts to die and be condemned. So what is the difference? They refuse to bow the knee to His sovereignty having chosen to be lord of their own life (Genesis 3:5).

People like Josef Stalin recieve a reprobate mind as an eventuality not by birth (Romans 1) having preferrede the lie over the truth, worshipping the creature (he was a solid marxist Darwinian) and denying the creator...these are actions men do which earn them their reprobate mind...God gives them over to it after many, many attempts in their life to get them to repent but they WILL not to repent.

So you should keep your view and learn to defend it but keep looking at the Scriptures that negate that view...I tell you, the truth is somewhere in the middle, not that I have a hold on it yet. One day however if we remain faithful we will all understand and be of one accord,,,until then then we all look in a glass darkly...

Father teach us and breed us as sons and daughters of the Kingdom letting each different member be used according to your good pleasure and for your purpose letting us all rejoice that we are all not the ear or the eye but some are feet and others hearts and lungs and use each of Lord to do thy will...I ask this in His Holy Name, Amen

Brother Paul

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Eden
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Thanks, TB125, I enjoyed reading that and having it put that way. A good addition to what has been said so far. [type]

love, Eden

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Copper25
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First off, this disscussion was one beneficial. Thank you all. I do apologize if I seem too strong on total depravity...

To be honest on the issue of free will, I looked at it like this in my own life when God saved me.

Before

My way of thinking was carnal
My focus, wordly
To The will of God, unsubmissive.
Their was not one hint of regeneration

I have veiw my before and after in this manner. I had free will before, but my will was fleshly based, dominated by desire to reach for actions like those in Galatians 5:19-21).

Then when God saved me, God shifted my will when he gave me a new heart and new spirit. Thus I have freewill now, but by the working of God my will, what I desire, persuit of spiritual things, conformity to the will of God.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I believe that God does not take away our free will when we are regenerated, but rather shifts our will to want conformity to his will, to long to know God, to want the ways of righteousness.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

strong concordinance

Heart

A form of H3824; the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect.....

God does a work to change the core of the man.

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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TB125
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I'll try to state my perspective on this doctrine of salvation as briefly as I can without citing a list of scriptures. I think that most of us who are involved in this discussion are familiar enough with the Bible to recognize the scriptural bases for my points.

In the first place, since the disobedience of Adam and Eve, all human beings have been born as "sinners" who are under God's judgment of death. There are none who are "righteous"; and, even with their ability to make choices, no one has the ability to do anything in accord with his or her own will power that could "justify" him or her before God.

So the solution to the "death" penalty against sinners is in God's hands, not man's. And God has chosen to implement his solution through the obedient sacrifice of his Son, Jesus, who paid the penalty by dying on a cross. And God applies the benefits of Jesus' sacrifice to sinners through the indwelling and transforming power of his Holy Spirit.

Since "dead" human beings cannot do anything to revive their vital relationship with God on their own or even to understand his Word apart from the work of the Spirit, God must do something to implement the change that can transform a rebellious sinner into his redeemed child. What God does is to "call" the rebel to "repent" of his or her self-seeking efforts of self-glory and in humble trust to accept his offer of grace in Jesus.

God does not "call" every "sinner" out of his or her tomb of "death". He knows that some are so "hard" and so "dead" that they will not even hear his "call", so he leaves them in their "state" of "death". This is a "just" act in accord with his judicial authority as expressed in his initial commandment to Adam and Eve and his citation of the possible consequences for their disobedience.

With God's call he includes a special "gift" of "faith", which he knows can help the sinner to relate to him in trusting love and obedience. God also knows that some sinners whom he "calls" are not going to choose to "repent" and to accept his offer of grace, but nevertheless he "calls" some in accord with his love and will.

God knows who is going to respond to his "call" and how far each individual is going to go in his or her relationship of trusting obedience and service to him, but he does not determine anyone's level of obedient service. That "level" is within the individual's powers of "choice" that are an ongoing part of his or her experience of sanctification for "fruitful" service as one of God's stewards or children.

I hope that this brief statement is helpful. God is in control, and his wisdom and judicial will cannot be rationalized away or diminished.

--------------------
Bob

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botham
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Thanks all for your thoughtful comments--Copper, it seems to me that your strong stance as to total depravity of the soul of people could eminate in part from your observations of Christians who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. This has to be true or society would show much more change in the right direction.

So it is either we are totally depraved or we are partly depraved. We must accept the truth that there is no natural good in people. Some, such as Noah and Abraham are cited as being what could be termed perfect but then that would be because God chose to make them so.

But others might say that these people chose, of their free will, to be such excellent servants of God.

What cannot be denied is that God is involved in His creation. My contention is that a singularly important facet of His involvement is the mystery of free will. It seems contradictory but let us remember that we are always trying to understand God with finite minds. It is difficult to conceive that we can truly be free to choose while God created all that exists and we thusly live in such a context. Add to this the scriptural knowledge of unrighteousness and we indeed have a dilemma about free will. I really do agree with Copper's remarks because they are scripturally based and the observations about nominal Christians can only be true.

All I would add is that we have free will to choose. If this is very troubling or seemingly philsophically contradictory it is because God is myteriously capable, as He is capable of anything, of creating us in this way.

It is an error, in my opinion, to conclude that the doctrine of total depravity needs to be embraced in order to truly be saved. Thank you and God bless, Botham

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Found in Him
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It's so refreshing to see men of God get along! [Smile]

Our God is our Faithful Provider and Redeemer!

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Blessed be His name!

--------------------
~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24

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Eden
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Hey, Brother Paul, I really liked your post, as for me and my house, I think you hit the nail on the head with what you wrote. [type]

love, Eden

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Copper25
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quote:
Like, for example, the wicked, say like Stalin, are generally not interested in saving themselves, so it is the wicked's own fault or did God just not choose him BECAUSE he was wicked, but how could THAT work since Christ died for the sins of the whole world so a wicked person's sins would not be an issue in any choosing, not even in God's choosing?

Let us break this down

first

quote:
Like, for example, the wicked, say like Stalin, are generally not interested in saving themselves, so it is the wicked's own fault...?
Why would Stalin reject the truth of the gospel?

Stalin like all natural (not born again) men is fleshy, not spiritual minded


Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus made a sharp difference between those of the flesh and those that are born of the Spirit.

Why?

Romans 8:5) "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh"

Thus they that are in the flesh do not apreciate those things that are Spiritual

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

again, what says the scripture?

Romans 8:7 "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

What do these things then mean?

This means that by nature, man will hate the pure truth of God. The natural man's mind only rebells against the light and the law of God.

Can a Zebra change his stripes?
Can a leopard change his spots?

If I where to put a lion in a cage, with a big amount of grass, is the lion going to eat the grass? No, because its system craves for meat.

In the same way, if you show a natural man (whose mind by nature is opposed to the things of God) the precious truth of the gospel; then he says the words, "I accept Jesus" with his mouth, does this mean that the nature that has bound him no longer has a hold over his mind, even the core of his being? No, simply no.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh" regaurdless of what that flesh proclaims with utterance.

God HAS TO regenerate the core of the man, giving him a new heart and giving him a new spirit in order for him to ever change!

God said (Eze 36:26) "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And B]I will [/B] remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."

We saddly have many people who say the words "I accept Jesus into my heart", but are never changed, they may even try to become a more moral person, but still are bound by the fleshy nature, thus remaining carnally minded. Then 10..20...or even 30 years later, they found out after they go to hell that they were never even born saved.....and it is to late.


Hear me on this one. didn't these type of people say "I accept Jesus into my heart". Why then do these people go to hell?

Because their hearts were not saying yes to the Lord!

Mark 7:6) This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

They did not believe in their heart even though
Their mouth could be flapping away, constantly even saying "Lord, Lord" or "I know the Lord".... "I have for many years known Jesus"

truly, they were not born again. They were bound by the flesh, dominated by mentality of carnality. Unless God liberates on from the fleshly mentality, they cannot overcome the deeds there of and their heart will always say no to God.

I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

If I speak to a rock, I will not get a response.
the rock is not capable of response, nor hearing me. Note also that I can yell at that rock for a hundred years and I will get no response.

If I speak to a person who is not a rock, this person is able to hear me and can respond.

In the same way, when you pour out an abundance of pure truth to a stone hearted person, he can say whatever he wants with his lips, but this person's HEART WILL NOT ABSORB IT. Thus his heart will continue to say "No" to the truth.

Unless a man is born again, he will forever be in a state of carnality and his mind WILL be hostile toward God. Note also, you do not have to be saying the words "I hate God", to be hating him.

Proverbs 14:2) He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the LORD: but he that is perverse in his ways despiseth him.

Again, to the carnal man, trying to follow after God will be a complete burden. Why do you think that false teaches and prophets say things that will make the FLESH at ease. Why some many "Christians" are content with a worldly gospel and half truths?

The man can't change the nature of his mind, nor truely be subject to God. It would be a burden for lions to eat a huge pile of grass, because they crave by nature, meat. In the same way, a for a carnal man to live a lifestyle subject God.

but for who is born of Spirit 1 John 5:3 "his commandments are not burdensome."

Therefore
Rom 8:8 ... "they that are in the flesh cannot please God"

A natural man is by nature will only be carnal. The nature is what contrains a man, and he himself could never break it. Therefore, no matter how hard an unregenerated man tries, his inner core WILL reject the truth will not obey nor conform to the truth. Thus death lies at the door.

Romans 8:6 "to be carnally minded is death"

Now when the carnal person rejects the pure truth and then goes to hell, is that God's fault? No, because like everyone else, that person had a chance to accept the truth and did not.

In John 8 Jesus told the Jews the truth and many would not listen! Why?

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 "You are of your father the devil"

Note that Jesus said (John 8:37) "my word has no place in you."

Which means that his word could not find any place to settle in their hearts.

Clearly these men were not born of God because Jesus said (John 8:47) "Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

Now that we have establihed scripturally that they were not born of God, and they were children of the devil, we can safely say that these men were carnal.


The question that remains is this. Did Jesus count this as an excuse for them? Would they be justifed before God?

Jhn 8:21 "I go my way, and you shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, you cannot come."

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

When one dies in their sins, this means that they were never freed from them because apart from placing one's faith in Jesus, on would still be under the power of the law, which is the sting of death (1Corinthians 15:56)

And according to Romans 3:20, "by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight"

Thus we can see, that although they were carnal, they WILLINGLY rejected the truth and for not accepting the truth, hell would be their final resting place.

Thus, we can conclude that if a natural man, whose mind is against God by nature, rejects the truth, he does it of his own will and has no excuse. Thus God is just to send him to hell.

All carnal men WILL reject the Truth in their core being because their WILL be bound by their nature to a carnal mentality.

Since man then cannot change his carnal mind which rejects God (no matter how much the man says "Lord, Lord", the belief that comes in his heart (talked about in Romans 10:9) has to be from God.


Now Eden, you said,

quote:
or did God just not choose him BECAUSE he was wicked
Simply Eden, if that were the case, not one of us would be saved.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Eden, ask yourself this, what reason could any of us ever give God to save us? What Reason could we offer to the Righteousness and Just God why he should not send us to hell?

Condemantion fell upon ALL men, not a few or a handful.

Romans 5:18 "as one trespass led to condemnation for all men"

This was said about Jesus "They hated me without a cause"

This could be said about all of us "He loved us without a cause"

because we have ALL sinned, we all have transgressed, and thus broken every commandment that God has ever written or declared.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Thus when it says

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

God was choosing from ALL "rotten apples", as your analogy says.

Romans 6:23) "for the wages of sin is death"

whether we committed one sin or a billion, we are still just as worthy of eternal punishment in hell as the next guy.

Note, that since God knows all things from the beginning to end, he had already knew everyone of us would sin.

Thus we can conclude that it is an even playing field when God chose us.

One final thing to note, no man can truly ever know Jesus unless the father draws him.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

Jesus' words, not mine.

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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botham
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hello again--sorry I didn't read Brother Paul's post before my last remarks. The reference to Judas helps me the most. God, who we will all agree upon, is not confined by anything, including time, which is a created thing. So yes indeed, He knows all things in the present because the future is a product of time. But being the God of liberty He has created free willed beings. God knew Judas would follow the disigns of principalities and powers and so would use Judas to fulfill His plan of salvation. It would also be necessary for God, as this mortal sees it, to withhold the knowledge of the power of Christ's Blood for His eternal purposes because then hell would try to prevent the Crusifixion.

But strict Calvinists seem to say, and I say seem to because I might need correction, that all things are predestinated including who will or will not go to heaven--indeed all activities of mankind. This eliminates free will for people as many see it so it is rejected or denounced depending on the source. I just reject it strongly on grounds best said by Brother Paul who I am glad to defer to. God bless, Botham

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botham
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Thanks everyone--Copper responded to my question abot the doctine of predestination being of any edifying purpose. This was done partly by alluding to God's plan of redemption set in place in eternity past. I couldn't agree more. It is what I said--it is the plan, not the person that predestination refers to.

My question was, and I hope this is clearer although I stated it plain before, where is the edification in believing that God has foreordained that some go to heaven and some to hell? This is plain nonsense because God would have to violate His Perfect Love by creating a being who He knew would experience everlasting torment. Therefore it is easy to conclude that God, not a respector of persons, makes salvation available to every human ever created. Of course many will not be saved because they reject God's calling. But we have absolute free will to choose or reject God. This is what the scriptures say to me. And please, Copper and others don't get the impression that I'm the only one of this belief. I know that you get your views from a source and you know that there are many who would agree with me. God bless, Botham

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Brother Paul
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Brothers and Sisters,

We need to not divide over those things we do not fully understand. No one yet has all knowledge (neither Calvin, Arminius, or the orthodox early Church fathers who were taught by the Apostles). One day He will return, then when we are 'face to face', we shall know even as we are fully known (1 Corinthians 13) therefore, let us discuss and debate without dividing.

The word speaks of two phenomena. One is predestination and the other is man's free will, which the Lord holds us accountable for our choice. Because the Lord knows all from before the foundation of the world does not mean He causes it all neither does He always approve. Some things He just allows and we need to understand that He is God and this was His will. Do we understand all these things? No! And we are not made or meant to. The truth is, it is not all one or the other but both and it is we who divide the whole counsel of God. We cannot always nail it down within the same camp.

R.C. Spoul differes from John McAuther in that John sees the election of God as absolute and men have no role, but this also means men have no responsibility. Is God then just if He makes a man to sin and then when He does He judges Him and sends Him to hell? Is this sensible? No! R.C. on the other hand though a serious Calvinist is not a hyper-Calvinist and sees all men by their free will as going to hell and God elects who will be saved according to His will and purpose, thereby it is not that He chooses who goes to hell because we are already all going there until He intervenes and fills us with irresistable grace. Augustine might say we are all destined to hell since birth because of original sin, but this is not possible either because we are then being held fully responsible for the sin of another which flies in the face of many Scriptures.

Now two premises which totally negate one another cannot both be true. One can be true and the other false or the other true and the other false or else both are false because both cannot be true at the same time in the same sense. So what are we to do? Clearly predestination is a fact but sinning because we choose to is also a fact or else the Lord who would hold us accountable for this would not be just and over 70 Scriptures which imply our responsibility in our choice to reject Him and go our own way become meaningless.

Clearly the Lord says "whosoever WILL may come", so either they can come or else they are incapable of coming (an immovable object) and if they do it is only because of irresistable grace He has predestined outside of themselves (an iressistable force) then we have more confusion (of which God is NOT the author), because an irresistable force cannot meet an immovable object, for either the one will move which means it really could have moved, or else it can resist the force which means it was not really irresistable. This interpretation of irresistable grace and our utter inability to be moved toward God is an irrational misnomer. It is illogical and non-sensical and thus causes as much confusion as the other extreme which would imply that since we caqn come to God on our own and satisfy His requirements by obeying His commands, then we no longer need Christ.

So then since the Scriptures truly teach both predestination and free will (He tells the Jews "you choose"), the two must work together and both must be Gopd's plan since before the foundation of the world in His foreknowledge. So what I believe the Scrtiptures teach is what has already been said...there is always a choice...the Lord says IF you do this I will do this, but IF you do that I will do that....sounds to me that by grace He allows us to have to play a role and thus it is by this we can held to blame if we sin unto death...

Salvation is a gift thorugh Christ we must recieve or reject...He already knows how each will choose before the foundation of the world but does not cause our choice...He has provided the redemption but if we prefer our sin or even having nothing to do with His offer, it is our own doing not His.

a) there are some things and some persons the Lord deterministically chooses or condemns (like Judas or Cyrus)

b) generally those who would choose and strive to be faithful (which He knew in His foreknowlkedge) are those He chose to elect, and those like Satan (by his free will) who under no circumstance and even if the Lord Himself spoke to them would ever repent and give up their self lordship, are elected (not caused) to be the condemned. He already knows who each is but does not cause it deterrninistically (like puppets on a string). If so then He is the author of sin.

c) also some things He set in order and they are governed by laws (like gravity) and He allows the consequence if the remedy is not pursued

This to me seems to be the only way in His foreknowledge He predestinates a creature who has been given free will....He foreknew the action, sentiment, character, and effect of all mens thoughts, decisions, and actions and elected those who would be saved (not making them to be saved for He has given the measure of faith to all men). Likewise He sees all who will not to be saved and will hate Him and reject Him no matter what, and those will be the condemned.

Some call this heresy, but I say to choose the side of predestination malking us all robots is heresy just as much as saying it is all up to us the Scriptures can be made to say both because they include both factors...how do they work together so the whole word is truth? God os neither a Cavinist not an Arminian...they are not God. How can we make disciples of all ethnicities if the disciples are predetermined before their birth? Why command us to preach the gospel to every creature if it does not really matter. Where then is obedience if you are hardwired to not obey from before you are born by His choice? This simply does not make sense and makes God a very mean vindictive being (God forbid)! He is love by nature and commands us to love Him. One cannot love Him if they are made to do so....love must be a choice in the possibility of choosing not to or it is not love...

Think on these things...

in Christ,

Brother Paul

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Eden
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hello, TB125, thanks for the links, I will look at them. You also wrote
quote:
Our understanding of this doctrine is not helped by a repeated discussion of the "pros" and "cons" of the doctrine of predestination.
Actually I have learned quite a bit from this discussion, both in terms of what people think and some new ideas that I had not thought of before. I think it has been an interesting discussion so far (some of it was "repititive" but still useful), and no doubt your links will help us understand the subject even more. But even as the discussion stands, I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to give their perspective on this interesting subject.

My understanding WAS helped eveb by "a repeated discussion of the 'pros' and 'cons' of the doctrine of predestination" (although for me the subject was not just about predestination, a word that I don't really think about much). Be blessed in Jesus and I hope to check out your links (although I can be a bit lazy when it comes to that ...).

love, Eden

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TB125
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This thread seems to be a repeated discussion of the doctrine of salvation and the role of God's will in its process as compared to the will of human beings. It cites the doctrine of predestination and various arguments for and against it. But I think that this discussion ignores some basic facts of creation.

God is the creator and man is the creature. This means that humanity is always subject to God's will and authority. Man is a "choosing dependent creature" who has the power to make choices, but individual human beings do not have enough "free will" to make them "independent" of God.

James A. Fowler has a couple of very complete articles that explain this matter on his website at http://www.christinyou.net. One is entitled "Toward a Christian Understanding of Man", http://www.christinyou.net/understandman.html. The other is entitled "No Independent Self" at http://www.christinyou.net/noindependentself.html. These are excellent articles regarding these basic doctrines, and Dr. Fowler cites a lot of relevant scriptures to support his teaching.

I think that it would be helpful to conclude that salvation is basically the work of God and that he is going to accomplish it in accord with his will as expressed in Jesus and his Spirit apart from anything that dependent human rebellious sinners can do about their situation. Our understanding of this doctrine is not helped by a repeated discussion of the "pros" and "cons" of the doctrine of predestination. I invite anyone who is interested in the basics regarding this matter to review Rev. Fowler's articles. I think that his perspective is very biblical.

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Bob

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Eden
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Hi, Copper25, please explain to me how the scriptures and what you said in the foregoing post make it so that God "foreordained who would be saved and who would not", if that is in fact what you are proposing? If Christ died for all (and He did), then why are only a small portion actually saved and is God only saving that small portion, or is it only man himself who determines who will save himself and who will not?

Like, for example, the wicked, say like Stalin, are generally not interested in saving themselves, so it is the wicked's own fault or did God just not choose him BECAUSE he was wicked, but how could THAT work since Christ died for the sins of the whole world so a wicked person's sins would not be an issue in any choosing, not even in God's choosing?

Thanks for some more elaboration. Be blessed.

love, Eden

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Copper25
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First, yes indeed, Christ died for ALLpeople

I never would refute this, this is TRUE

I say this, which is true, few there be that find it.

What is the edifying part about predestination for a Christian?

It really came to mind when I was asking this.

Picture this, how long has this earth been around? it is estimated to be over 4 billion years old!

Now think about it. Ephesians 1:4) "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,"

I marvel at this, it is the ultimate demonstration of foreordaining done by God. It has already before a single peice of land came to be, before a single once of water was formed, before the Holy Spirit moved on the water (Genesis 1:2). Frankly, it shows the how undefeatable the counsel of God is, that nothing can prevail over God, that his sovereignty will forever be unmatchable.

Let us consider how colossal the quantity of events that have taken place since the earth's existance. Let us look at the history of mankind alone. Our history is not stagnant.

1) In time, there have been many wars, two of the biggest have happen in the 20th century, World War one, which had a grand total of over 16 million deaths; and World War two which had over 60 million deaths.


2) In the history of mankind, there have been ruthless dictators (instruments of Satan, just like Herod was after Jesus was born (Matthew 2)) that have made it a purpose to kill, hurt and to harm Christians.


"Dr. David Barrett, editor of the massive World Christian Encyclopaedia, and author of Cosmos, Chaos and Gospel, and Our Globe and How To Reach It, has documented that Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin was responsible for killing over 40 million people. Joseph Stalin closed down over 48 000 churches, and attempted the liquidation of the entire Christian Church.
Similarly, communist dictator of China Mao Tse Tung launched the Great Proletariat Cultural Revolution, ”History’s most systematic attempt ever, by a single nation, to eradicate and destroy Christianity…” Mao was responsible for killing about 72 million people."

source : Greatest Killers


3) There have been great plagues: like

1) small pox in the eighteenth century, killing over 60 Europeans. In the 20th century, over 300 million people have died because of it.
2) Spanish flu from 1918 to 1919 killed over 50 million people
3) Black death which killed over 75 million

source Great plagues


And many other events, but despite all of the above, what God has purpose cannot be hindered, cannot be override by the things of nature, nor the devices of man.

Pro 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


application

There is not a promise that God has given us in the bible that time will nullify or hinder God from performing it. God will always keep his word regardless of our circumstance.

Examples
Shall we have trouble, we have that sure promise of God being our strength

Psa 37:39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
Psa 37:40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

When we have a need, wether it be grace, direction, strength; we have that lovely promise in Philippians 4:19

Php 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

When we go through the thick and deep waters of trial and tribulation, perils, and various temptations, we have that promise of Isaiah 43:2

Isa 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

And we know for CERTAIN, 100% surety, without a doubt, God will keep these promises.

And o how excellent is that sure promise of the resurrection where we shall be raised. incorruptible and obtain the ultimate victory over the grave to be with the Lord Jesus forever.

There is not a prophecy that is written in the bible that will ever fail

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

We KNOW that what is written about the furture in God's word, in the bible, WILLinevitably come to pass.

Look at Isaiah 53
and certainly, we could go on and on.

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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Eden
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Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Jesus did die for the sins of the whole world, so, as such, salvation is available to everyone.

But for some reason, and more likely for the plural reasons that have been set forth in this discussion, only a minority of the people on earth will take advantage of the offer of salvation:

Matthew 7:13
Enter in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat.

There are many reasons why people don't bother to take God up on His offer of salvation. And presumably God could have also said, "Okay, I realize earth life was a bit too complicated, let's forget about what has happened thus far, and let's start over and I will unilaterally give everyone who has ever lived on earth a glorified, eternal body like Jesus had after His resurrection, and we will start over".

But God did not do that and instead God chose to have Jesus come to earth, die on the cross for all, and then whosoever believes in Jesus will be saved. That already sounds like a more limiting plan to me than if God just said, "Okay, I realize earth life was a bit too complicated, let's start over, etc."

Any other plan automatically has its limitations of who can accept it and who cannot. Take for instance those six primitive people with red war paint on them, standing in a circular clearing in the Amazon jungle, looking up at the small plane that had just flown over their clearing in the jungle, aiming their bows and arrows at the small plane which had just discovered and photographed them earlier this year 2009, all six of them are almost surely going to die without ever hearing about Jesus dying on the cross for them in Israel.

According to the traditional view of hell as taught by most denominations, they are all condemned to live in hell fire forever and ever without ever dying. Do you think that is fair? Are they not predestined to go to the traditional view of hell merely by being born in that jungle clearing? Yes, they are.

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

But if God had said, "Okay, I realize earth life was a bit too complicated, let's forget about what has happened thus far, and let's start over and I will unilaterally give everyone who has ever lived on earth a glorified, eternal body like Jesus had after His resurrection, and then we will start over", then even the six primitive people in the jungle clearing would be saved.

I'm not saying that's what God SHOULD have done, God chose what He chose, but what God chose also has its implications and automatic limitations.

love, Eden

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Found in Him
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Botham writes:
Nothing could ever convince me that God's salvation by our Precious Savior is not available to a particular person and it is terrible to even think it.

This statement sums it up for me Botham. I agree with you... to consider otherwise compromises God's grace, Love, forgiveness and His word.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24

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botham
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This is the first time I have ever discussed the topic of predestination to any extent. I just find it so wrong, and frankly revolting, to see people believe that God would choose one person over another. The references aboutt children and apples are totally inadequeate attempts with a fallible mind to posit an anolgy on a topic that has implications for humans that are eternally wonderful or eternally sorrowful.

I have yet to read, no matter the large streams of scripture cited, one idea that explains how believing in predestination is beneficial or edifying to Christians. Yes, it is wonderful that we responded to God's call on our hearts and the Truth of Salvation through Christ's Blood. But we are to see ourselves as sinners bound for hell that were miraculously and lovingly saved from that. Now we know that it is available to ALL, not just a select few. Perhaps only a select few will choose, but it is available to ALL. God does not love anyone above another, so ALL have the free will opportunity to choose Jesus Christ.

Again, it is the emphasis on predestination, to even bring it up so often that is troubling. Why such a major point? Please, will someone, in their own words as led by God's Spirit, tell me what the edification is to bring it up with such emphasis. Is there some denomination out there that references it often? Why? What's the point?
It goes without saying that we are grateful beyond description for the Saving Knowledge that has been given us. Now why would we want to think that there's people walking the earth who are damned to hell by A Creator who has the unimaginable power to express existence itself?

The problem arose in the past by people like Calvin, accoring to my research, who decided that they needed to know who was or was not predestined, and to burn alive at the stake, those who didn't measure up. Why anyone would want to be associated with this warped view of one word in the bible is beyond me. Let's put the emphasis on where it belongs----ALL. God loves everyone EXACTLY the same. God bless, Botham

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Eden
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I was also thinking today about this Topic and about God "choosing" people to be saved.

Now, since God is invisible, if God "chooses" people to be saved, then God also needs to "let the people whom He has saved KNOW that He has saved them".

It is not enough for God in heaven to choose people for salvation, but God also has to let the people on earth KNOW that He HAS chosen them to save them, and therefore "some kind of transaction has to occur between God and those whom He has saved".

And that transaction seems to be that God has to appear to us in some divine way, either by personally appearing as to Abram, or by Jesus coming to earth in the image and likeness of God, or by the written Word of God, so that the people whom God has chosen can believe that God exists and then by this believing, God accounts their belief as righteousness unto them:

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him.

The transaction seems to be that God appears to us in the above ways, and then those who believe that "it was really God", God then unilaterally "accounts their belief as righteousness unto them". That is, the person who is doing the believing is now NOT MORE RIGHTEOUS than he was a little while ago, but it was only his BELIEF that it was really God that is automatically acounted to him as righteousness:

Romans 4 (God I love that book ...)
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall also be imputed, if we believe on Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead.

But in order for God to choose someone for salvation, God first had to do something in the earth life so that we could believe in Him, for else it would not be sufficient for God alone to know that He had unilaterally saved someone, and in order for that salvation to "also play out and have benefit in that saved person's life on earth", some kind of transaction had to take place on earth also, to make that person aware that he HAD been saved.

love, Eden
"Or something like that ..." [roll on floor]

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Eden
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Hi, Luc A C, I really liked what you wrote here
quote:
The situation we have with Paul and Pharaoh kind of reminds me of the situation I have between two of my sons. I love both my sons equally and I treat them and raise them the same way. One of them has no problems with my rules and regulations and my discipline, while the other continues to challenge me on every level. The more I enforce the my rules the more his heart hardens. So I guess I must take the blame for hardening his heart. This was the same with God, He knew even before Pharaoh was born that he would have a heart that would harden, so God would use this. I don’t want to harden my sons heart but what other alternative do I have. To do differently would not be fair to my other son who is learning from all my rules and regulations and will take it with him in life and will do good by what he has learned.
I really liked that, it was excellent.

I understand, I think, that with the above statement you were trying to make the point that God does NOT save people unilaterally, as Copper25 was proposing by the scriptures that he showed.

I think that such a hardening as you describe occurring in your son could also have been at work in Pharaoh and that God foreknew this and so God could use this to harden Pharaoh's heart with rules like, "let My people go so that they may worship Me in the wilderness", and that Pharaoh then "was like your son who resisted your rules and hardened his heart by doing so for too long", so I can see that also working in Pharaoh.

However, regarding Paul's Damascus experience, it would really not work to say, as you did, I think, that God foreknew that Paul would "eventually come to faith" anyway, so therefore it was okay for God to "go ahead and speed up the process of Paul eventually believing" by God intervening in the earth with a "Damascus experience" which would save Paul now rather than later.

It cannot be said, I think, that Paul "resisted the light coming on him" and that Paul "resisted being thrown from his horse to the ground" and that Paul "resisted being temporarily blinded" and so on. Certainly none of those things hardened Paul's heart, but rather softened Paul's heart:

Acts 26:14
And when we were all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me, saying in the Hebrew language, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me? It is hard for you to kick against the pricks."

Acts 9:5
And he [Paul] said, "Who are you, Lord?" And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom you persecute; it is hard for you to kick against the pricks.

And then a little later it says in:

Acts 9
15 But the Lord said to him [Ananias], Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and before the children of Israel.

16 For I will show him how great things he must suffer for My name's sake.

17 And Ananias went his way and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, who appeared to you in the way as you came, has sent me, that you might receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales; and he received his sight forthwith and arose and was baptized.

20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

To me, this is cleary a direct intervention into earth life by God, for the purpose of saving Paul, because God needed someone who was very knowledgeable in the Old Testament scriptures, NO MATTER THAT Paul's current mental condition was that Paul hated the Christians as being misguided to believe in Jesus.

To me, it is very speculative to say that God "foreknew that Paul would eventually believe in the Christian way", when all that seems to be happening in Paul's case that God needed a man who was very well versed in the scriptures and who HAD a zeal for God, howbeit still misplaced in the Mosaic law, which God could easily undo by the "Damascus experience".

So to me, God did actually intervene in Paul's life and SAVED Paul unilaterally, because God NEEDED Paul and NOT because God knew that Paul would "eventually get saved anyway" but "God needed Paul NOW".

And actually there are numerous direct interventions by God in the Old Testament, like the intervention that Abraham received when "God appeared to Abram":

Genesis 12:7
And the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your seed will I give this land"; and there he built an altar to the LORD who appeared to him.

Likewise really we could say that all those "And the word of the LORD came to so and so" in the Old Testament were also direct interventions into earth life by God for the eventual purpose of salvation:

Matthew 8:11
And I say to you, "That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

And really also the creation and preservation of the New Testament, being a divine book, is a direct intervention of God to "promote His salvation":

Matthew 24:15
When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso reads, let him understand).

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he who reads and they who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they all were written down, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain all the books that should be written. Amen.

John 20:31
But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through His name.

All of these could therefore also be considered direct interventions of God into earth life, so that God can redirect earth life to fit His overall purposes, namely for Jesus to rule and reign over the earth and for God to acquire many sons and daughters.

So in my opinion God has and does interfere in earth life and God DOES save people unilaterally, without the person being saved having ANY INTEREST in or knowledge of, being saved beforehand, as in Paul's case or Abraham's case:

James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness.

But it was God who first appeared to Abram, for Abram himself believed in other gods:

Joshua 24:2
And Joshua said to all the people, Thus says the LORD God of Israel, "Your forefathers dwelled on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nahor; and they served other gods.

Deuteronomy 26:5
And you shall say before the LORD your God, "A Syrian ready to perish was my forefather, and he went down into Egypt and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous."

love, Eden
"Or something like that ..." [roll on floor]

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Luc A C
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Originally posted by Copper25:
quote:
Did Paul walking on the road to Demascus, just say "I want to come to the truth", or did the Lord Jesus make a light a appear around him, speak to him, and afterward shut his eyes for about three days? Act 9:9 "And he was three days without sight...".
Originally posted by Copper25:
quote:
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runns, but of God that shows mercy.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might shew my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.

God foreknew both Pharaoh and Paul. Even before they came into existence he knew what there characters would be like. He knew before hand that no matter what He would do, Pharaoh ‘s heart would only harden. God also knew that Paul would eventually come to Christ. Remember He is the potter.

The situation we have with Paul and Pharaoh kind of reminds me of the situation I have between two of my sons. I love both my sons equally and I treat them and raise them the same way. One of them has no problems with my rules and regulations and my discipline, while the other continues to challenge me on every level. The more I enforce the my rules the more his heart hardens. So I guess I must take the blame for hardening his heart. This was the same with God, He knew even before Pharaoh was born that he would have a heart that would harden, so God would use this. I don’t want to harden my sons heart but what other alternative do I have. To do differently would not be fair to my other son how is learning from all my rules and regulations and will take it with him in life and will do good by what he has learnt.

--------------------
Let use not interpret the Bible in a way that it would suit the way we want to live, but let use interpret the Bible in a way God wants us to live.

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Eden
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You make some good points, Copper25, that it is not just the Plan that predetermined who would be saved (as I had proposed), but God definitely interferes in the earth (in addition to only free will on our part), as to who will be saved in the earth.

So I would say that there are at least 3 forces that determine who will be saved: (1) the choice of the type of Plan; (2) by our free will (which is often diminished however by our circumstances so that some people have more free will available than others); and (3) by God's direct interference.

As for God interfering or moving things around to fit His purposes, I certainly think God has the right to choose whomever He wants to choose from among the people on the earth.

The fact that all people are equally sinners provides God with the opportunity to also "choose whom He will" because "they are all alike sinners". It would be the same as when the apple tree has all equally rotten apples, if I want to make an apple pie, I just choose some apples and I am not being unjust by choosing this apple or that apple because they are all equally bad.

And even in the human adoption process, the adopting parents go to an orphanage, in China or Romania, and walk around until they find the child that they like and adopt that child, without anyone thinking it unfair that the other children were not chosen.

Certainly when all sinners are equally under the same penalty of death ("the soul that sins shall die"), then God would NOT be unjust if He chose whomever He wanted, for whatever reason. But in addition our righteous God made it even more righteous (for He knows how people are ...) and had Jesus suffer and die on the cross to even eliminate the sin issue, so that no man can say, "oh, but why didn't You choose ME, I didn't do half the bad things that HE did"; God did not have to do that, but He even kindly removed that issue, lest any man should boast and He'd have to listen to it.

But when God is dealing with sinners who are equally deserving of the penalty of death, then God has the absolute right to choose whomever He feels like choosing, and as Copper25 pointed out, God indeed does do some choosing of His own, while He allows the rest to play out according to natural dictates and circumstances of the kind of family or country or historical time we are born into, et voila, God has the sons and daughters He was looking for.

But, eventhough Jesus died for all, the only way ALL could have ever been saved is if God had simply said, "Look, I don't care what anyone says about by justice and my mercy (blah, blah, blah), I'm just unilaterally going to decide to save everybody, and I don't care what anybody has to say about it", and even Jesus as the Son of God could have stayed up in heaven where it was nice and warm (brrrr, it's cold today where I live, ha, ha).

John 10
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch ...

love, Eden
"Or something like that ..." [roll on floor]

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botham
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Copper--Christ died that ALL might be saved. I wonder why you seem to emphasize that God chooses some to heaven and some to hell? That's all. Isn't it better to leave it alone. You have a finite mind as we all do and therefore you will always have a nagging notion about who is saved and who cannot be saved no matter what they do. This will not be edifying for you.

I have repeatedly asked you what purpose you have in emphasizing this predestination doctrine. It seems like it's as simple as some people see the glass half empty and some see it half full.

Perhaps you belong to a specific denomination that emphasizes predestination. Let me guess--the folks you congregate with are saved, but as for the others, well, some yes some no. Just sounds awful to me that's all. Let us just view God's people, His creation, as worth the price of His Son's Precious Blood and leave it at that. Quit bothering your mind with who can or cannot go to heaven. With your theory, no matter what one of these hellbent people do, they cannot be saved. This is simply nonsense. God will save any person who truly receives His Son. God bless, Botham

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Copper25
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quote:
So I don't believe that predestination refers to any single individual but as has been said, to a plan, lest God contradict Himself being no respector of persons. God bless, Botham

Respecter of person tends to judgement

God's judgement

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work....

Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. God's judgement

We should not be respecters of persons.

Pro 24:23 These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Jas 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
Jas 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Thus respecter of persons pertains to judgement.


The question now is, would it contradict God's nature, his attributes, if he were to choose and I mean specifically pick people to be saved?

Would God be unjust to specifically pick someone? No.

Look at Acts 9

Did Paul walking on the road to Demascus, just say "I want to come to the truth", or did the Lord Jesus make a light a appear around him, speak to him, and afterward shut his eyes for about three days? Act 9:9 "And he was three days without sight...".

The second senario is what happened. The Lord did not sit by with his fingers crossed saying, "Man, I sure hope Paul comes to me now, I want his attention"

No, Jesus intervened. Jesus purposely Chose Paul, selected him for use and to be a sanctified vessel for his purpose!

This is hard Biblical proof that God does select certain people to be saved.

If I say that I have choosen five apples, doesn't this mean I myself have selected them?

If I say, I choose this route, have I not made that choice?

In the same way

When the bible says

James 2:5) "Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith"

2Th 2:13 "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

1Co 1:27-28) "God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are"

Joh 15:19 "I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

Didn't God therefore make a choice and selection?

Aren't we called the elect of God? (Referances. Romans 8:33, Colossains 3:22, titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2)

Should we then call a spade an ace or a spade a club, rather than calling a spade a spade?

I tell you truly, people will say God is sovereign; but this part of God's sovereignty to pick, elect ,select, or choose people; is where people want to say, "God, you can't do that" or more rather "God I don't want you to do that"

Shall man put a limit to the Creator, the God of heaven?

I leave with this.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runns, but of God that shows mercy.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might shew my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

God IS the potter

I ask one person to show me even one scripture that says God cannot choose whom he wills, Just one scripture. The bible is the final authority, right?

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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botham
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Yes Eden, it is the PLAN of redemption through His Son that God predestined. God would never created a being who He predestined to hell. We choose to go to hell by rejecting God's salvation by our free will.

There are problems that we will never fully resolve with our little brains. It never ceases to amaze me that we, with an organ of between the ears weighing 3 lbs. or so, can contemplate our own existence and spirtual things such as the meaning of life and so on. Personally I would go mad or madder as some might say, were it not for the Word of God and that level of hope.

Language just comes up short at times. I thank Brother Paul for the post including the writings of the early church. Obviously we are but part of a long list of people pondering the ideas of predestination, God's omniscience, free will and so on. We seem to run into a contradiction. How can it be possible that Omniscient God can grant free will? This would be contradictory. How could a loving God create angels and humans if He knew the turmoil ahead? Only, in my humble opinion, if He had predestined a perfect resolution, bringing all things rebellious back to Himself. Absolute freedom is necessary for God to fellowship with His creation at the level He desires.(as I see it).

So I don't believe that predestination refers to any single individual but as has been said, to a plan, lest God contradict Himself being no respector of persons. God bless, Botham

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Luc A C
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Very well done Eden.

--------------------
Let use not interpret the Bible in a way that it would suit the way we want to live, but let use interpret the Bible in a way God wants us to live.

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Eden
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Hi, I just got back from a little trip, so haven't had the time to read the above posts in more detail, but the gist I got from Copper25's post is that there are indeed scriptures that seem to indicate that God "predestinated" who would be saved and who not.

One scripture that comes to mind (it may have been mentioned above) is:

Romans 9
21 Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor?

22 What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory.

Romans 8:29
For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them he also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

Please note that in v.29, the very first part is "whom He did foreknow"; that is where it starts. In other words, God foreknew in time who would accept His Son, and those were the ones "God foreknew", and them then God also "predestinates ... to be justified and glorified".

It would be inappropriate to just mention v.30 which says "and whom He did predestinate", without the "whom He did foreknow" part being set forth first.

But, there is also this:

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will.

Okay, note that we are predestinated by the adoption "of children by Jesus Christ" and this is "according to the counsel of His own will".

Now, God wanted to acquire some sons and daughters from among the earth, but God's dilemma was that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God", i.e., all are equally sinners and all are therefore worthy of the penalty, namely death.

To help illustrate the matter further, I use the analogy of an apple tree on which all the fruit is equally rotten, but the owner of the tree wants to make an apple pie, but how can he choose some apples and leave the rest? He can say, "I'll take the ones that have a yellow spot on the top", or whatever.

Now, apples don't have any free will like people, but when we consider people who have free will to sin or not to sin, the picking of the "rotten people" for the acquisition of of sons and daughters, becomes more troublesome because the "rotten people" also end up "accepting Christ" or "believing in Christ" and so they become saved or are "acquired by God" as sons and daughters.

So whom God foreknew would accept Christ in their lifetime, them He also predestinated to become sons and daughters.

But what is it that God "foreknew"? It was the Plan that God and Jesus devised in heaven for aqcuiring sons and daughters, namely that Jesus would be planted into the womb of Mary, and that Jesus would do miracles, and that Jesus would die on the cross for our sins, and that Jesus would rise again from the grave, and that Jesus would come again the Second Time to rule and reign over the earth, and that those who believed all that would receive the free gift of eternal life just like Jesus had on earth after His resurrection, THAT PLAN was how God "predestinated" the "equally sinners".

The plan itself determined what kind of person in their lifetime would be able to accept Christ.

God tried to make it as easy as He could, in that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world:

1 John 2:2
And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That puts all sinners on an equal playing field, and the badness and worseness of their sins won't be an issue, in terms of "who should qualify" for sonship:

Ephesians 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

In addition God gave to each man a measure of faith:

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

But at that point, since God IS dealing with "equal sinners", the Plan itself comes into play, as to who will be able to believe in that Plan.

But in time, God is dealing with people who are real, living entities with real power to inherit and take the earth for themselves, in spite of God's interest in "acquiring some sons and daughters for Himself":

Matthew 21:38
But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

Luke 19:14
But his citizens hated him and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

People, in their respective lifetimes, get to evaluate the Plan that God and Jesus have devised in heaven to acquire sons and daughters, and depending on their family history of abuse and unlovedness and havinn atheists as parents and depending on in which country someone is born, all of these will influence a person's ability to accept the Plan, or not.

The very design and complexity and magnificence of the Plan determined who would be able to accept such a Plan, as in "who ever heard of a man resurrecting from the dead"?

Acts 17:3
Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Acts 17:31
Because He [God] has appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He has ordained; whereof He has given assurance unto all men, in that He has raised him from the dead.

Acts 17:32
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked; but others said, We will hear you again of this matter.

So one COULD say that God "predestinated" WHO would be saved and WHO would NOT be saved, because God must have known the design of the Plan would determine who would "mock such a design" and "who wanted to hear more", and as such, in the moment that God and Jesus DECIDED on THIS Plan, in that same instant was everyone's fate "predestinated" or "predetermined", and in that sense can it be said that God "chose" who would be saved and who not:

Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles.

John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen; but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eats bread with me has lifted up his heel against me.

God chose us by the design of His Plan. And then in time, some of the people on earth exercised their free will to accept the Plan; in this manner God got to choose, and we individually still had to accept, as we were able:

Mark 7:16
If any man has ears to hear, let him hear.

love, Eden
"Or something like that ..." [roll on floor]

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Brother Paul
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I don't know whether this will help or not but here is what the original Bishops appointed by the Apostles taught their students. These are the words of those very students...this is how they interpreted the Scritpures...

IRENAEUS of Gaul c.130-200
Against Heresies XXXVII
"God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall certainly be punished, it did so because He foreknew that they would be unchangeably (wicked), but not because God created them so. So if they repent all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God."
"This expression, 'How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,' set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves . . "If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give counsel to do some things and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free-will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free-will in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God."

THEOPHILUS of Antioch (2nd century)
To Autolycus XXVII
"For God made man free, and with power over himself . . . now God vouchsafes to him as a gift through His own philanthropy and pity, when men obey Him. For as man, disobeying, drew death on himself; so, obeying the will of God, he who desires is able to procure for himself life everlasting."

TATIAN of Syria (flourished late 2nd century)
Address XI
"Why are you 'fated' to grasp at things often, and often to die? Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature. We were not created to die, but we die by our own fault. Our free-will has destroyed us; we who were free have become slaves; we have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God; we ourselves have manifested wickedness; but we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it."

BARDAISAN of Syria c.154-222
Fragments
" 'How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation?' -if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him . . . And how, in that case, would a man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman . . . they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures."

CLEMENT of Alexandria c.150-215
Stromata Bk ii ch. 4
"But we, who have heard by the Scriptures that self-determining choice and refusal have been given by the Lord to men, rest in the infallible criterion of faith, manifesting a willing spirit, since we have chosen life and believe God through His voice."
Stromata Bk iv ch. 12
"But nothing is without the will of the Lord of the universe. It remains to say that such things happen without the prevention of God; for this alone saves both the providence and the goodness of God. We must not therefore think that He actively produces afflictions (far be it that we should think this!); but we must be persuaded that He does not prevent those that cause them, but overrules for good the crimes of His enemies."
Against Marcion Book II ch.5
"I find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God's image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature . . .you will find that when He sets before man good and evil, life and death, that the entire course of discipline is arranged in precepts by God's calling men from sin, and threatening and exhorting them; and by this on no other ground than that man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.
. . . Since therefore, both the goodness and purpose of God are discovered in the gift to man of freedom in his will . . ."

NOVATIAN of Rome c.200-258
On the Trinity ch 1
"He also placed man at the head of the world, and man, too, made in the image of God, to whom He imparted mind, and reason, and foresight, that he might imitate God; and although the first elements of his body were earthly, yet the substance was inspired by a heavenly and divine breathing. And when He had given him all things for his service, He willed that he alone should be free. And lest, again, and unbounded freedom should fall into peril, He laid down a command, in which man was taught that there was no evil in the fruit of the tree; but he was forewarned that evil would arise if perchance he should exercise his freewill in contempt of the law that was given."

Based on this teaching, the LORD before the foundation of the world foreknew all who would act on the measure of faith given to all men and who would not. Those who would respond are the predestined and those who would reject His offer are the damned. Grace is NOT irresistable. Grace is offered to all but some prefer to be their own lord (Genesis 3:5) and decide what is good or evil for themselves...rejecting the lordship of the one and only true God and the Savior He provided in Christ. He sets before each life or death, blessing or curse and then pleads "Choose Life" but alas, some in their free will will only be self willed...pray for these, and share the word and the gospel...we plant another waters and it is God who gives the increase.

Brother Paul

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botham
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No copper scripture does not lie. It's the emphasis on the predestination that is the problem. I don't know why the scriptures are there. Certainly they are not there for anyone to emphasize.

I choose to emphasize that Jesus Christ died for all and that God gave us total freedom to choose Christ. To me it is not a correct interpretation to see it as God predestines some and not others to heaven. Please tell me though, if you can as to your understanding, can one be witnessing to someone and that someone is predestined to hell and so I am just tormenting that person.

Also, God has changed His mind and in the flood and Sodom so why wouldn't He honor my witness to someone who He predestined to hell and change His mind. I find the whole concept of predestination as a doctine to be the result of someone starting an error in times past and some people nowadays picking up on it for reasons that elude me. Maybe you can sort this out for me and tell me what edification can be derived from thinking some are predestined for hell. Thanks, God bless, Botham

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Luc A C
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Copper
you have quoted the famous Joh 3:16, that reads: [“….that whosoever believeth in him should not perish….” it does not read: “…..that whosoever I have predestine should not perish….”

We, everyone that has walked on earth must make that decision to believe or not. Now whosoever comes to that decision of believing, these are the ones that God has predestine not to perish.

God still give us that free will to choose. That’s why it is so important for use who are saved to reach out to the lost and introduce them to Jesus so they could have the opportunity to get to know Him and make up there own minds to believe or not.

If God has predestined who will be saved then that means He must also predestined who will be going to hell. This would contradict scripture: 2Peter: 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

If God predestines who is saved and who is not that would mean the Bible lies when it says that He wants everyone to come to repentance, or at list when reading scripture this way it is very contradictory.

--------------------
Let use not interpret the Bible in a way that it would suit the way we want to live, but let use interpret the Bible in a way God wants us to live.

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Copper25
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First question that needs to be addressed.

Does man by nature love or hate God?

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Copper25
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1) The mercy of God is extended to all peope trough Christ

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2) Truth, many will reject it.

Truth God has the ultimate forknowledge

Do the scriptures I show you lie? If so, state your case. I just showed you scripture, so if you got a problem with scripture, please take it up with God. Pray on it, do as you will.

Peace.

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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botham
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Thanks Copper--but God is no respector of persons. This means that you, Copper, are no more special to God, although you are very special indeed, than the young girls who prostitute themselves on my street corners. In fact I lean a little toward God seeing them a little more special because of the abuses heaped upon them by sinful man.

Do you ever wonder who is or who is not 'predestined'. Because if you do contemplate that even for a moment you are on a most slippery slope. You have made an emphasis upon this word predestination. You would do best to forget about it altogether and just love every human being as if they are worth the price of the Cross, the shed Blood of Jesus.

So please stop this inference that some are destined for heaven and some for hell. This is entirely up to God and He alone knows this, not you. Would God allow the birth of someone who He knew would be destined to hell. This is ridiculous! There is probably a most unfortunate interpretational problem with the wording or outright translation in times past. Certainly, if taken in light of the total bible message that All might be saved, it falls short of God's love.

Nothing could ever convince me that God's salvation by our Precious Saviour is not available to a particular person and it is terrible to even think it. God bless, Botham

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Copper25
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I say this, Forget what Calvin says, what says the scripture?

Anyone who says that God does not predestinate people to be saved. I politely ask that you consider these scriptures. If you want to cut them out of your bible, then go right ahead, but this is just plainly, like the sun shining in the day, verses that show that the concept is very real.

Does God presdestinate people? You decide for yourself.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Ki 19:18 Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ,


Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple!


Look at the whole chapter of Roman 9

parts put

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shews mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardenes.

Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.


Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Joh 15:16 You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Last note. I am will not argue about "Once saved always saved" or "Not once saved always saved." This is not nor is my intention for this post.

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