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Topic: WATCH FOR THE RAPTURE
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Eden
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1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet {Greek, apantesis} the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Dr. James McKeever, for one, has pointed out that the Greek word for meet in 1Thes.4:17 above is the word apantesis.
This word occurs only 4 times in the NT (see Strong's 529), and means to go out to meet an arriving person, and then TO TURN AROUND and ACCOMPANY THAT PERSON BACK TO WHERE WE CAME FROM.
A good example of how apantesis works is found in Acts 28:15, where the Christian brethren of Rome heard that Paul was coming toward Rome, and so the brethren left Rome and came as far out of Appii Forum to meet {Greek, apantesis} the oncoming Paul:
Acts 28
14 Where we {the oncoming Paul} found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we {the oncoming Paul} went toward Rome.
15 And from there, when the brethren {of Rome} heard of us, they came to MEET us as far as Appii forum, at The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
So we see the brethren went from Rome to Appii Forum, where they met or apantesis with Paul, and then the brethren turned around and accompanied Paul back to Rome.
Let me now apply this use of apantesis to 1 Thes.4:17:
1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet {Greek, apantesis} the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That is, when the Lord comes toward the earth at the Second Coming, we are caught up from the earth to meet or apantesis the Lord in the air, and then we turn around and accompany the Lord back to the earth where the Lord is headed.
When that catching up occurs, we therefore do not go to heaven, but we accompany the Lord back to the earth in our glorified bodies.
The other two instances in the NT where this word apantesis occurs are Matthew 25:1 and 25:6:
Matthew 25
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet {Greek, apantesis} the bridegroom.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom comes; go out to meet {Greek, apantesis} him.
These two verses from Matthew 25 refer to the same event as that described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 at the top of this Topic.
And when we "apantesis" the Lord in the air, we go down with Him to the earth where:
Malachi 4:3
You shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD of hosts.
love, Eden
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botham
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Thank you Paul--our denomination teaches a pre-tribulation rapture but I don't really agree. I don't even feel right hoping for it. My hope is that Christians, true to our Lord Jesus Christ, are here to lead many to Salvation during times that are going to be even more deceptive than at present. Just look at the entertainment world, with it's trivialization of evil in the gothic subgenre of vampire shows, and all the supernatural stories that appeal to the very part of our soul reserved for God. God can split this ethereal notion of spirit wide open, and He will, but I believe that He will use the Saints to do so.
If one is not grounded in Truth and Sound Doctrine, the lies and pseudo miracles of the Antichrist will seem marvelous to nominal believers and of course the world. This deomonic individual will seem the saviour as he unites the political and religious powers in a utopian like manner. Only true belivers, those who know His Voice will not be deceived.
I am usually very practical in my thinking. I've said it before and I'll continue to say it. If there is a pretribulation rapture, Glory to God, for it is His Will. But I remember the multitudes of people who have already endured, to death, what could only be described as tribulation as they, along with their families and innocent children, succumbed to evil that could only be described as tribulation. We do not need a pretribulation rapture.
A pretribulation rapture is only necessary if God, The Holy Spirit, will have left the earthly realm. Of course no Chrisian could be here because of the promise ' I will never leave you nor forsake you'. Brother Paul has gone into some amazing interpretations of original language to address this and it sounds good to me.
Scripture certainly can be interpreted for a post tribulation rapture.
Personally, I will believe as if there will be a post tribulation rapture. If it is otherwise, praise God, so be it. Thanks for the excellent post Brother Paul. God bless, Botham
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Brother Paul
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Here is another piece to chew on:
Here is a list of Post-Trib teachers and scholars...any you respect?
Justin, Irarnaeus, Tertullian, Clement, Novatian, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Victorinus, Ephraem, Jerome, Augustine, Aquinas, John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, John Bunyan, Jacob Arminias, Isaac Newton, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Henry Alford, J.Sidlow Baxter, F.F. Bruce, Thomas Chalmers, Adam Clarke, Jonathan Edwards, Jim Elliott, W.J. Erdman, Robert Gundry, Carl F. Henry, Matthew Henry, John Huss, Orson Jones, C.S. Lovett, J.Gresham Machen, Peter Marshall, Walter Martin, Gary Matsdorf, G.Campbell Morgan, Leon Morris, George Mueller, Ian Murray, B.W. Newton, John Newton, H.J. Ockenga, Bernard Ramm, Alexander Reese, A. Saphir, Demos Shakarian, A.B. Simpson, Oswald J. Smith, Jim Spillman, R.C. Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie TenBoom, S.P. Tragelles, William Tyndale, B.B. Warfield, Charles Wesley, R.F. Youngblood, -----and premillennial posttribulationists also include : Bengel, Brooks, Cameron, Delitzsch, Derstine, DeWette, Ellicott, Ewald, Frost, Godet, Godwin, Joyner, Kellogg, Moorehead, Orelli, Robertson, Rothe, Ryle, Spener, Stier, Trench, Volck, Van Ostersee, West, Whiston, Zahn, N.T. Wright, and many, many more
Let us look at another aspect of this position....
Saved during the trib? According to the Pre-Trib rapture theory there are Tribulation Saints which are not part of "the Church" universal. They separately teach that "that which restrains" id the Holy Spirit holding back the free reign of evil and that the Trib happens because the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth during this time (interpreting that "he which restrains" is the Holy Spirit). And thirdly that the "Tribulation necessarily includes the period of God's wrath (Trumpets and Vials) as well, which the Church cannot be subject to. This Theology poses at least two problems....
a) how can any person be saved void of the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8; Acts 2:38; Romans 6:23)? With what are they sealed? Who baptized them into Christ? With what are they filled? and so on...
b) since this "great multitude from every nation and tongue" according to Revelations are "saints", i.e., saved and sanctified by God (though no longer there) this not only means they will be subject to God's wrath (which Post-Trib does not teach) but according to the Scriptures this would mean they missed the first resurrection and are thus condemned to hell....fir the dead in Christ rise at the Rapture and are caught up with "we who are alive"! All who rise in the second resurrection are raised without the redemptive blood of Christ to pay their sin debt.
An additional problem arises because they are grammatically in error. the "he" (a pronoun) which restrains and is taken out must refer back to the noun, thus it refers to the Anti-Christ and not at all to the Holy Spirit. Neither is the Holy Spirit a "what" but rather a who...Also who are the "elect" if not "the Church", i.e., those "born again", spoken of throughout Matthew 24 for whom the days of the Anti-Christs reign are shortened? And are they also raptured out after the Trib? Making a pre- and post- trib rapture? Then we have Mark 13:11 which many Pre-trib teachers say takes place during this time, but how can that be if Jesus is saying the Holy Spirit will speak through them? How will this happen if the Spirit is absent.
Parousia - coming Scriptures
II Thess 2:8 - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (parousia): Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"
At the Parousia the Anti-Christ is consumed by Christ....and when is the Parousia? 1 Corinthians 15:23 tells us it happens at the resurrection of the saints, which is further described in 1 Thess 4:15-17 when it speaks of the Rapture. At the Rapture the alive are caught up and the dead in Christ rise. In other words this is speaking of the Parousia when the Anti-Christ (who will already ahve been revealed and set up in the TEMPLE) will be consumed..., i.e., post trib!
"apentesis" according to world renowned Taxtual Critic F.F.Bruce, in New Bible Commentary, ©'70, p.1159, describes this Greek word as always attending a Paousia, even when referring to the appearance or coming of a civil official. What happens is a crowd of people is gathered to meet him/her and they come "with them" the rest of the way, lauding and cheering their arrival. This would happen here if the President was coming to visit your town. An enterouge of like minded anticipating peoples would move ahead and be joined to them early on and atend his arrival into the main point of arrival (in Christ's case the mount of Olives).
At any rate, the word "apentesis" is the word interpreted "meet" when we are caught up to apentesis Him in the air....Think on this for a moment. If a coming only part of the way and then retreating to the point of origin is implied, then both parousia and apentesis are inappropriate terms and are grammatically incorrect. All Greek Scholars agree this is not the case here. The words are correct and used in their proper construct, thus, the Parousia is "the Parousia" spoken of when the Anichrist is consumed spoken of in chapter 2.
One of the passages I like regarding the Parousia is 1 Thesselonians 3:12 and 13 which we have Paul instructing that "the Church" increase and abound in love toward all men, so that their hearts may be established unblamable in holiness before the Father at the Parousia of the Lord Jesus with all His saints...this means Paul is teaching that the Church will exist on earth at the Parousia (when according to him the Anti-Christ is consumed....yet elsewhere describes this as the time of Rapture)
Finally, the Parousia will be no secret...the world will not be left trying to figure it out because we are told in Matthew 24:27 that the whole world will see the Parousia, not just the few watchers in the Churches. This Scripture ties this event to the "epiphanea" (His visible appearing, coming to judge - 2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Tim 6:14; 2 tim. 4:1,8; Titus 2:13). This is he blessed hope we are to be waiting for!
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Brother Paul
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Again, this is not to take the place of Scripture but serves as a mighty witness as to what the Bishops appointed by the Apostles were taught regarding these things and what they also taught thier disciples...
Didache (Teaching of the Twelve) is a treatise written by some unknown author from around 75 A.D. Though not Scripture was read in the Churches of the 1st two centuries
"For in the last days false prophets and seducers shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; and because iniquity aboundeth they shall hate each other, and persecute each other, and deliver each other up; and then shall the Deceiver of the world appear as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unlawful things, such as have never happened since the beginning of the world. Then shall the creation of man come to the fiery trial of proof, and many shall be offended and shall perish; but they who remain in their faith shall be saved by the rock of offence itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; frst the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead - not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him; then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven."
Justin Martyr, 150 A.D., Dialogue with Trypho,
"O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and cruciÞed; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have þed for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;"
Iraneaus, Against Heresies, 160 A.D.
"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings." It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord."
Tertullian, On the Ressurection of the Flesh, 185 A.D.
"In the Revelation of John, again, the order of these times is spread out to view, which 'the souls of the martyrs' are taught to wait for beneath the altar, whilst they earnestly pray to be avenged and judged: (taught, I say, to wait), in order that the world may first drink to the dregs the plagues that await it out of the vials of the angels, and that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God
Hippolytus, Dogmatic and Historic Treatise on
Christ and the Anti-Christ, 225 A.D.,
"Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary...That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (3 1/2 years) during which the tyrant (Anti-Christ) is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defense than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens."
"For this is meant by the little horn that grows up. He, being elated in heart, begins to exalt himself, and to glorify himself as God, persecuting the saints and blaspheming Christ
Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, 258 A.D.
"For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of afliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist draws near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..."
Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau, 270 A.D.
"He shut the door upon him," it is said, that is, he forbade and restrained his seducing (Satan's) those who belong to Christ. Moreover, he put a seal upon him, because it is hidden who belong to the side of the devil, and who to that of Christ. For we know not of those who seem to stand whether they shall not fall, and of those who are down it is uncertain whether they may rise. Moreover, that he says that he is bound and shut up, that he may not seduce the nations, the nations signify the Church, seeing that of them it itself is formed, and which being seduced, he previously held until, he says, the thousand years should be completed, that is, what is left of the sixth day, to wit, of the sixth age, which subsists for a thousand years; after this he must be loosed for a little season. The little season signifies three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself trader Anti-christ against the Church. Finally, he says, after that the devil shall be loosed, and will seduce the nations in the whole world, and will entice war against the Church, the number of whose foes shall be as the sand of the sea.
Beloved, this view continues until the Pseudo-Ephraem of the 4th Century appears...before John Darby in the 19th century, no one believed or taught any such notion as a two-part Second Coming or a Pre-Trib rapture even up to and after the reformation...the wrath from which we are spared is the Lord's Wrath (for we will be with Him), not the persecution of the Anti-Christ! Beloved keep your wicks trimmed and your oil full! We all believe in a rapture (which occurs as the first ressurection), the question is when not if... think on these things and prepare the children, for the time draweth nigh. Amen, maranatha Lord...
with love in Him
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Eden
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Hi, Copper25, you wrote quote:
Eden, frankly the condition of man would be the appreciate place to start for this.
I'm sure I made the point several times that we are all equally sinners, so that God had to come up with a plan to acquire sons and daughters when all men are equally sinners. But God came up with a magnificent plan.
(I am however a little bit baffled by your several attempts to suggest HOW a Topic SHOULD have been started, etc., when Topics and posts tend to have their own way of flowing into a next subject, as if "we are doing it all wrong" kind of feeling? I don't get that.)
love, Eden
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botham
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Thanks Copper and Leo--It is so very difficult to imagine God, Sovereign-Loving-Merciful God full of Grace and Glory sending that beautiful person who helps sacrificially in the community(metaphor for all such people) going to hell on a technicality. Now I know 'technicality' is a crude word for not officially accepting Jesus Christ, but their good works put many Christians to shame if we dare to compare.
It just doesn't make sense! And then we discuss who is or is not saved. On another site I just read that aceepting Jesus into your heart does not save you. You must only accept the resurrection--that's what saves you becuase Christ died for everyone and that's done, so what's left but to accept the resurrection. Where's then is the Cross? One must believe in the entire Christian message. That Christ is the Messiah, that He died in our place and that He rose again and is with the Father as our Advocate.
I also read that Calvin, a murderer(if burning people alive at the stake because they disagreed with him is murder), is the culprit who began the heretical doctrine of predestination. Many will argue on and on that predestination is true with copious biblical references. Why would anyone wish to follow the teaching of someone who killed people and presided over the religious affairs of a country like a totalitarian dictator?
There are many references in the bible where God changes His mind according to prayer or pleadings. God is a God of Justice and Liberty.
Religion is the problem. Let our hearts be united with God Who Is Love, Jesus Who Is God with us, and temper our words accordingly. I would like to see more people confess that Jesus Christ is God. Sometimes I get the impression that some do not believe that. God Bless, Botham
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Leo
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Greetings Daniel:
There are many Scriptures that give what individuals don't want to hear so I will just leave it at that.Love in Christ:
Leo:
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Trust in God and Him only:
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Copper25
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Greets in the mane of the Lord Jesus
Eden, frankly the condition of man would be the appreciate place to start for this.
Leo, you said
quote:
They don't ever, in this life, get a call!
The billions alive before Christ, the billions since who never heard his name, the young children who die from disease or accident or by some act of human depravity, the billions whose hope of salvation lies with their good works, or with Allah, or with a multiplicity of Hindu gods - none of those have yet been called to "get salvation".
But they will have their chance! Jesus tells us (Revelation 20:5) that they will live again. But that resurrection won't take place, he says, until after the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ. That thousand years hasn't even begun! And when resurrected to face Jesus Christ they will be judged in the flesh "out of the books". The same standard for judgment, In other words, that face Christians today - the books of Scripture.
Leo, I tell you truly, and look
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
I say this, first of, Man has absolutely no excuse that will fly as to God for why they rejected God.
As it is written, Romans (1:19-20) "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
I tell you truly that every human being from the beginning of existance is left without excuse before God. I tell you this, that ever human being that has ever been in existance has had the chance to except the truth of God.
I say wether it be the OT or the NT, that when a man rejects God, and dies unrepented, he blew his chance.
Leo, consider this, Christ died once for all people that were to every live. He bore the sins of every human being that walked this Earth. Christ died once; This life, this earthly life we have now is one life; The moment we die, we enter into another, wether heaven or hell. So, in order for your idea of a second chance to ever happen, Christ would have to die twice!
As it is written, (Hebrews 9:27) "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
Those people that partake in the second ressurection will arise for the specific purpose of judgement!
Rev 20:13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Leo, I tell you truly that everyone who will partake in the second ressurection WILL HAVE ABSOLUTLY NO CL0KE FOR THEIR SINS.
Now Let us then look at the Judge. God is the judge. Job 8:3 "Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?"
Imagine a sinner standing before God with the book showing his ENTIRE LIFE WITH NO SIN EXCLUDED
Psalms 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
God's eyes scan through that persons life and every detail, every hidden thing that lies in the darkness; those things which that person (who is being judged) thought was hidden, that no man would find out, God has seen! I tell you with all honesty, when God looks at those sins that the person has committed. What saith the scripture?
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death..."
I tell you truly that that person shall get the wages they deserved. They sowed sin and certianly they shall reap the abundance of death.
If Christ said (Matthew 7:22-23) "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
What on earth of a chance shall the person that rejected in full, the gospel of Christ? If those that reject Christ in the Great tribulation go to the lake of fire (Rev 14:9-11), do you really think that anyone else with their iniquity shall be overlooked by God, and not be recompensed?
This is the status of every person on ths earth who does not truly believe in Christ, guilty. I don't care how rich, how high a reputation, or how many good works they have latched under their belt. As it is written, John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already"
Everyone in that second ressurection is already marching toward the judgement with guilty hanging over them.
I tell you truly. Both the small sinners and the great sinners standing before God shall not escape. So If anyone is saying, my family member shall get another chance after this life time, after they pass through that door, that barrier; that man or women is greatly deceived!
remember, just as a note, Look at revelation 20 very carefully and you will notice that the Holy Spirit is not going to reveal the truth unto man. Therefore regeneration of a person could not happen; For it is by the working of God the Holy Spirit that one is regenerated and born again. Jesus said (John 3:5)"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." I tell you in all honesty, that those men, women, and young people standing before God on that day will be carnal, fleshy, and will not be bron of the Spirit.
Leo, if I have spoken wrongly, please correct me, but be specific, and please use scripture of justify your answer. Thank you.
with love in Christ,
Daniel
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Leo
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The depths of human depravity knows no bounds. One day it's the callous murder on our door-step of sixteen innocents and their teacher. Then hundreds are cindered in a disco fire in some far-off land. Each year earthquake, fire and flood carry off thousands.
And nearly all die "without Jesus ", and without salvation!
Where is God in all of this? Is He on vacation? Perhaps, deservedly, He has washed His hands of humanity? Why hasn't He made a move to rescue us? Does He not love the world enough to deliver us from our natural and man-made disasters? And to save us eternally?
Most Christians, of course, believe that if you're not saved during this human lifespan then you are without hope of salvation. Translate that into understandable words and it says that without Christ the bulk of humanity will forever burn, but not burn up, in hell's fires - the "popular" idea of what happens to those who die "without Jesus". Challenge most evangelical preachers and they will, perhaps reluctantly, admit to this. And challenge that sweet, gentle Christian lady renowned for her undoubted good works - and she, too, will agree that this fate awaits any who die "unsaved".
Since Creation, then, only a tiny fraction of earth's billions - according to the accepted Christian teaching - have "gone to glory". Virtually none before the death of Jesus Christ. And certainly merely a minority since. The rest have suffered through a lifetime that is, in effect, purposeless.
And God has, apparently, failed.
Cosmic Battle
Most Christians believe God is trying to save the world. That He is battling Satan for the souls of mankind. Before Christ's death - absolutely no chance of salvation. Since then - opportunity for salvation, but only if you are in the right place at the right time.
Has the Christian missionary failed to reach you? Too bad. Are you one of the two billion or so alive today who have never even heard the name of Jesus? Too bad - your chance of eternal life is remote, unlikely. And too bad for those born before the Christian era.
Certainly there is powerful argument that God has failed and is failing in His plans. Which, of course, is quite ridiculous!
The fact is, the Word of God is quite explicit about God's plan. (Yes - He has a plan!) That plan is beautiful. It is fair. It is exciting. Of course each man and each woman who has ever lived will face judgment. Each of us will answer for our every word and every action. Every murderer or thief or extortioner or liar or adulterer or terrorist - even if he now escapes true justice - will surely face judgment. The ledger isn't closed in this life!
But every man, woman and child who ever breathed on this planet will be given his or her chance of living for ever!
In God's plan for mankind there's provision for what some despise as a "second chance". But even if that were so - what's wrong with it? Did you ever give your child a second chance? That first failed attempt at walking - did you stuff little Mary into her crib saying "You've had your chance. Just stay there"?
Of course not. Nor does God. He is not less merciful than His creation. And in such a serious matter as eternal life. However, we don't in fact get a "second chance" at salvation. For few in this life have a first one!
God invites (calls) into His Family and to salvation (John 6:65). The call is highly selective, and not everyone who is called accepts the invitation (Matthew 20:16). Further - not all stay faithful (Revelation 17:14). (It is selective. But God does not often call mankind's "giants" - I Corinthians 1:26-29!)
For the vast majority of mankind, however, the phone doesn't ring. They don't ever, in this life, get a call!
The billions alive before Christ, the billions since who never heard his name, the young children who die from disease or accident or by some act of human depravity, the billions whose hope of salvation lies with their good works, or with Allah, or with a multiplicity of Hindu gods - none of those have yet been called to "get salvation".
But they will have their chance! Jesus tells us (Revelation 20:5) that they will live again. But that resurrection won't take place, he says, until after the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ. That thousand years hasn't even begun! And when resurrected to face Jesus Christ they will be judged in the flesh "out of the books". The same standard for judgment, In other words, that face Christians today - the books of Scripture.
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Trust in God and Him only:
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botham
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I just want to say that the discussions are terrific. The learning is indirrect because it is seldom that the writer portrays themselves as the ultimate authority. They use scripture the way they interpret it and it is appreciated. One day I might even use a scripture quotation or two and delineate an idea in a logical sequential manner. In the meantime I appreciate everyone's input. You are teachers to me even if you don't purport to be so officially. We need to be humble and learn from one another. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eden
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Hi, Copper25, you wrote quote:
teaching is an interesting thing. But the responsibility put there upon the teacher is huge, accountability before God. Would I dare to be arrogant as to say let me teach you in the detailed knowledge? Woe unto me if I speak wrongly, teaching the word to people! So as for being a teacher of the word, I would fall back at this time.
But we have to start somewhere, Copper25, and I'm sure that the Lord is pleased when we are at least willing to discuss the Bible with what we know so far individually.
If all of us waited until we were "certified teachers of the Word", nothing would be said and done and there's no point in having a Bible forum.
I tend not to think in teacher terms at all, but rather I'm stating what I've learned so far with the help of the Holy Spirit, and take it or leave it, it does not matter to me. If what I've said happens to help someone great, if not, that's all I know so far so bear with me, as I bear with others.
Who dares to call himself a teacher of the Word? I certainly don't. I have frankly learned something from just about everybody here on this board; one does not have to be learned to have the sweetness of the Spirit of God come thru his or her words. But on the other hand:
Hebrews 5:12
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
I think all of us are simply "doing the best we can" and we would be fools to think of ourselves as more than we ought:
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
1 Corinthians 8:2
And if any man think that he knows any thing, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.
So there you have it; we do the best we can, and that's all we can do. I don't think that the fear of what the Lord "will do to us if we think ourselves to be a teacher, but are not quite there yet", that should not stop us from at least trying to share what we know so far.
love, Eden
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Copper25
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teaching is an interesting thing. But the responsibility put there upon the teacher is huge, accountability before God. Would I dare to be arrogant as to say let me teach you in the detailed knowledge? Woe unto me if I speak wrongly, teaching the word to people! So as for being a teacher of the word, I would fall back at this time.
James 3:1 Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.
I believe being a teacher requires a lot of prayer and guidance from God in order to interpret scripture correctly right, and not by one's right hand, listening to God is key. Frankly, just looking at one or two verses in expounding, verse on verse illumination, and meditation may take hours, but certainly should not be rushed but done with care.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Eden
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Copper25 wrote quote:
I know where this is going.
It's comforting to know that at least ONE person then knows already where this is going. I myself am still flying somewhat by the seat of my pants, but I am hanging to what the captain (Jesus) is saying over the intercom (the Holy Spirit).
You continued: quote:
In order to truly do this correctly, these things must not be excluded:
The doctrine of regeneration
The absolute sovereignty of God
The condition of man after the fall
what man by nature feels about God.
Very good items to include; however, most of us here are homeside scholars, if that, and we mostly know parts of these themes, and probably no one here can expound on all of these important themes in such a manner so as to cover all there is to cover of them in Christianity, as each item is large in its own right.
Therefore I agree with you, Copper25, when you say quote:
This question is touchy, but I will say it.
Truly I ask this, but it may take a bit of searching the scripture.
But some of us have families and many other obligations and not all of us can become Bible scholars who can expound on all aspects of Christianity.
We often have to make-do with what we have learned so far, and in the process most of us will learn at least SOMEthing new, Amen?
But if you say you "know where this is going", then perhaps you can lead us on into the next applicable part that we should also consider, Copper25, as per your excellent list above?
love, Eden
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Copper25
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I know where this is going
In order to truly do this correctly
these things must not be excluded
The doctrine of regeneration
The absolute sovereignty of God
The condition of man after the fall
what man by nature feels about God.
This question is touchy, but I will say it.
Truly I ask this, but it may take a bit of searching the scripture.
Any man can say yes with their lips, but by whose working will the yes of the heart come from? Man or God?
Here is the thing, if we wanted to do this rightly, it would also require us to not just quote the verses, but to analyze them,chew on them, to ask questions, and to listening to the Holy Spirit our teacher to guide us.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Eden
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And what of the following? It contains no mention at all about the blood of Jesus being necessary, etc.:
Romans 2
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
love, Eden
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botham
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Hello all--some very interesting and important questions are being discussed. Has anyone else besides me, at some point in their life, basically cursed the fact that they had free will after making a disastrous decision about a relationship or another important aspect of life? "God, why did You not intervene and stop my anger outburst" or whisper in my soul that this financial decision would ruin me?
Do we really have free will? I think we do!
Did God know that His created people would rebel even before He created us? I think the bible does say that the plan of salvation was in place from eternity. I'm not very good at research so perhaps someone can clear this up.
In any event, it is my humble opinion that our Glorious God did give His created beings a free will. He desires relationship with those who will come to Him freely to experience true freedom from the sin bondage. Our Lord Jesus Chrsit, our Creator is Liberty as He is Resurrection and so on.
One might say that for God to give complete release to created people and occlude in any way His knowledge of who or who would not choose the Blood of Christ for their salvation, would be to make Him less than omniscient. Maybe not. God is God and part of His perfection is that He is above our inability to reason philosophically in this respect. His capacity to do such a miraculous release to created beings is as much an argument for His Omnipotence as is His knowing who will or will not choose salvation.
My main point is that we should refrain from thinking we know anything but the tiniest portion of the Mind of God. Somehow, beyond our ability to understand, each individual who ever existed will have what Justice demands--an informed choice for Jesus Christ. I know that scripture does not seem to support this, but it is the impression I get when I meditate on the nature of my creator, Jesus Christ.
Some have said that there will be a special resurrection for those who have died in sin when they can accept or reject salvation. Others conclude from scripture that this is not so.
Of course it is our sin nature that excludes us from eternal life and only Christ has the authority, given Him by His Father, to grant incorruptible bodies suitable for eternity on a new earth or Heaven. The cost to God, to know His Own Son, the eternal Son, would not only experience the wickedness of human life but then as the Most Innocent incur the entire wrath that we wretched humans deserved, makes it impossible to say the least, for Him to pardon anyone except by His Son's Blood. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Eden
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Hi, Copper25, good post. Okay, so that clears up the fact that the book of life is NOT a book of the record of what a person has done in his life, but is instead a record of who is saved and who is not saved. If a person's name is in the book of life, then they are saved, and if a person's name is not in the book of life, they are not saved.
As for those names already being in the book of life "from the foundation of the world", that has nothing to do with some people being predestined unto salvation, and others not being predestined unto salvation.
The fact that the book of life was already "filled-in with the names at the foundation of the world" merely means that God, who knows the future, already knew ahead of time who during their life on earth would accept His Son's sacrifice and who would not. It has nothing to do with being predestined.
But what DID predestine who would get saved and who would not get saved is the plan that God and Jesus chose to save people.
What we had here on earth were sinners who, in God's eyes, were all "equally sinners". I like to compare it to a fruit tree on which all the fruit is rotten.
And when God wants some sons and daughters, God has to choose from equally rotten sinners, all deserving of death and not of rescue.
So God and the Son of God Jesus are up in heaven and they have to come with a plan to acquire sons and daughters from among these rotten sinners.
And the plan They came up with is Jesus becoming a second Adam and dying on the cross for the sins of the world, and then whosoever could accept that plan as being real, that person got saved.
But the very plan itself determined who would get saved and who would not. To say that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary of Nazareth and planted a holy seed in her virgin womb, already stops many people from being able to believe the plan.
Or to say that one man, Jesus, died on the cross for everybody's sins, already stops many people from being able to believe the plan.
Or to say that Jesus then resurrected from the dead, already stops many people from being able to believe the plan.
I myself struggled over the plan for some 10 years before I could believe it.
But what if God and Jesus had made a different plan? Let's say that They had decided on a plan where God says, "Okay, whoever lays 6 rocks in a row by alternating one dark-colored rock with a light-colored rock, will be saved", then different kinds of people would have been saved than were/are being saved with God's plan of Jesus coming to earth and dying for us, etc.
Therefore the PLAN ITSELF pretermined WHO would be able to believe it, or not. But since they were all "rotten apples" to begin with, which were all worthy of death and not of rescue, it is God and Jesus alone who did the choosing of how They were going to acquire sons and daughters from among the "rotten apples".
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
And this is also where the generational curse comes in, of the sins of the fathers being visited upon the family unto the third and fourth generation, so that a family of sinners born into Islam or into Buddhism is less likely to be able to accept God's plan than someone born into a family of sinners in the at least "nominally Christian" West.
And in the West itself, a child born into a family of saved Christians is more likely to become a saved Christian himself, as compared to a child born into a family of atheists, and so on, the sins of the fathers are visited on the children and all of these factors determine who can accept the plan that God and Jesus came up with to acquire sons and daughters for themselves from among "equally bad sinners, all deserving of death and not rescue":
Luke 10:20
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject to you; but rather rejoice because your names ARE written in heaven.
It is an extraordinary and marvelous privilege to have been born into a family from which one COULD accept the plan that God and Jesus devised to acquire sons and daughters for Themselves.
And even as it was, it took ME 10 years from the day that I first began to look inside a Bible to be able to accept God's plan and during those 10 years it was "touch-and-go and iffy" all along until I finally was able to accept God's plan for salvation. But thank God, I made it!
love, Eden
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botham
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Interesting discussion--can someone please tell me how to determine if a person is included in the group of people predestined to be saved for the Kingdom of God. Just wondering because if it truly the case, there follows some serious implications don't you think? The problem with language is that it falls miserably short, especially when we pick a word out and make a doctrine out of it without balancing the word with the entire bible.
Anthropomorphism is the notion of ascribing to God, human characteristics. Yes, Jesus took on human form to fulfill the Father's wishes. But God's ways are not our ways and His mind is only partially known to us through scripture and the Holy Spirit. So to make such sweeping statements that God has predetermined all the saved from before time, is plain folly. Human intelligence is pathetic before God so let's stay humble and let God determine who is covered by the Blood of the Lamb. We just need to witness in word and by our lives and praise God always. Those questions will be answered back to you as "stop troubling yourself about who's predestined and start living humbly before My created beings." God loves every single being ever created and is no, I repeat NO respector of persons. That includes those pompous people who think they are predestined to Heaven while others are not!
God bless, Botham
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Copper25
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Hello Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus
What God has been showing me lately is the power of line upon line and line upon line. I say this, 1) this does at times take a moment of prayer to God to guide you, 2) and therefore waiting on God, and 3) a willinigness to search the scripture.
When we come to questions about the details of the bible, a verse that puzzles us, we should find verses to illuminate it.
Think, the book of life
Revelation 20 says "another book was opened which is the book of life"
1) notice that it says "the book", which means one, not multiple books.
what scripture can we throw on this?
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
2)I say this, those who are outside of Christ, are not in the book of life. So look at the second ressurection. WOE unto those people!
Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
3) Those who are in the book of life will have chosen to follow God in this life time!
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life , but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
4)Those whose names are in the book of life WILL be overcomers and victors in this world
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world
I know this is a touchy subject for some, but this is just plainly what the verse indicates, not any private interpertation.
5) Those whose names are in the book of life are predetermined by God before the world came to be.
(Rev 20:12) "the books were opened"
as for the other books that were opened, look in psalms.
I know that these could be expounded on a lot more, these are some basic points.
With love in Christ,
Daniel
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Eden
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Hi, Copper25, I read most of your reply to Leo, and I just wanted to add that Leo is proposing that "the books that were opened" in Revelation 20:12 were "the books of the Scriptures":
Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
So here we see two types of books opened, (1) the books that were opened" and (2) the book of life was opened. Leo is merely proposing that "the books that were opened" referred to the Scriptures which millions of people have never had a chance to hear about or read, so that they would be given a chance at the Judgment seat to also say, "Okay, I want to accept that propitiation covering of Jesus too", and thus be saved. That is what Leo is proposing, I think.
And indeed, what could those "and the books were opened" refer to, if NOT to the Scriptures? Certainly not Plato's books or Aristotle's books, what would be the point of that at the Judgment Seat? So it may well be that "the books that were opened" WERE the Scriptures, as Leo proposes.
However, Leo's proposed view DOES have its own difficulties, as I have set forth in my post above this one, which please see.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hello, Leo, welcome to the discussion board. First of all, in Biblical Help, you wrote a nicely written post, and I am copying my answer here also since this seems to be a similar discussion.
Leo, if I may, in that other thread there was one part that I wondered about ... you wrote quote:
And when resurrected to face Jesus Christ they will be judged in the flesh "out of the books". The same standard for judgment, In other words, that face Christians today - the books of Scripture.
Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
That is a very interesting concept. I had actually never noticed that it says "the books were opened" and that there was a "book of life".
The "book of life" is presumably the record of what a person did during his/her life. But so what are the other books that were opened when it says "and the books were opened".
I'm sure it's not referring to library books, et al., and it does make sense that those books would refer to the same books that we have, namely the books of the Bible.
Assuming that it is a reference to the books of the Bible, are you proposing that resurrected people at that time would be able to make the same judgment as to the truthfulness of what is written, or not, to either bring them to "instant faith" (so to speak), or not? Or how do you envision that playing out before the judgment seat, please?
A side question that I would have is that we currently on earth come to faith without the IMMINENCY of being thrown into the lake of fire.
When someone is resurrected, they would presumably KNOW that they have been resurrected, and furthermore they are standing before the judgment seat of the Glorious Holy One of Israel who they can actually SEE.
If, upon reading or hearing what it says in the books of Scripture while in front of the judgment seat, they would also know about the imminency of the lake of fire ...
Would they therefore not be MUCH MORE MOTIVATED to choose salvation now that they see that IT'S ALL TRUE, seeing the Holy One in front of them, and therefore they would also realize the truth about the lake of fire being the very next thing for them if they say "no" to salvation?
Or are you saying that they are merely judged on moral grounds, but how would that be possible if "there is no one who does good, no, not one" in the earth? Would they not have to be given to understand the whole Bible, like us, to "keep it fair"? What is your reaction to what I've just said here, please?
love, Eden
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Copper25
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quote:
At the end of the thousand years, the rest of the dead, those to whom have not accepted Jesus Christ will be resurrected and will have the opportunity to also be His Son’s and Daughters. Then those who do not accept will be put in Hell Fire and will be burned up. They will die the second Death but will not burn for ever and ever
I am sorry, but this is completely not true.
Let us look at the sernario here.
There will be absolutly no second chance for those that reject Jesus Christ in this life!
As it is written, (John 3:18) "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
I tell you truly that the soul that does not believe in Jesus Christ is already on top of hell fire, but the fact of the matter is that God out of his unmeasurable mercy has not let them fall into it. The person that does not have Christ in this life time is completely naked before God in this sense. There is absolutly no covering that is covering their sins. This person is a defiled garnment before God.
If I hand you a white beautiful satin cloth that has a big spot on it, and I tell you it is clean; what are you going to do? Most likely you would say to me "Hey this cloth is not clean, but it is dirty"; and if I tried to deny it, you would show me that big ugly spot of dirt and filthiness; and thus my words would be proven false, and I a liar.
In the same way, think my brethren, on that terrible when the dead, both small and great rise to go up to God. It is going to be pure judgement. As it is written, (ASV)(Nahum 1:3) "Jehovah is slow to anger, and great in power, and will by no means clear the guilty". Again, as it is written, (Proverbs 17:15) "He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD."
I ask you this, do these people that take part in the second ressurection have any covering for their sin, do they all of a sudden just magically have all there sin vanish before the Almighty? No! As it is written,(Proverbs 24 12) "... shall not he render to every man according to his works?". Again, (Jeremiah 17:10) I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."
Leo, I ask of you, please really think about this. What was Christ. Truely, he was the propitiation for our sins. Christ took our place. He was made a bloody sacrafice because of all of our wrong was placed upon him, our sins, our great multitude of transgressions had to be recompensed for: All of our sins had to be paid for. I tell you truely that God did not skip over our sins, that is to say slack on justice. Look at Christ. Is it not written, (Isaiah 53:10) "Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him". Again, (Isaiah 53:5) "But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities..".
Isn't it true that apart from Christ, we would still be bound under the law, trapped and suffocating underneath the weight of the ministration of death? Wouldn't the sting of death still have its grasp around our necks. Isn't it true that apart from Christ, we would not none of the hand writting that is written against us blotted out?
As it is written, (Colossians 2:13-14) "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"
This only happens when one accepts Christ in their life, and no where else. Truly I say unto you, that Christ died once for all, but not twice. As it is written (Hebrews 9:27) "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". Think about this, once to die. This means that man is going to die in this life time. We all are; but right after this is the judgement.
What did John say, (Matthew 3:10) "And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
What did Jesus himself say? (Matthew 7:19) "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
In other words what these to verse clearly warn about is this; If you do not bear good fruit in this life time, if your branches yield rotten evil fruit, then you will certain be cut off, hewn down, and will be left to burn. Does Christ speak these hard says in vain? We all have this life time, and this lifetime only to get right with God. And this is only through Christ Jesus.
Jesus said this unto the Pharisees;(John 8:24) "I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins."
Is God a favor of persons? No! Do you realize what Christ has said? In other words, "you shall die in you sins" means that your sins would stay with you.
Now seeing that the law is the sting of death, I pose to you this Question. For all those that rejected Christ; since when would that curse, that law that makes the whole world, every man guilty (Romans 3:19); lifted off of the man that takes part in the second resurrection?
Remember also this, my brethren ans sisters in Christ; ALL those who take part in the second ressurection are NOT written in the book of life and note that their sins are not covered by Christ; but will be visible and taken into consideration before a completely righteous God who burns against iniquity. These people who take part in the second ressurection will be the enemies of God, standing before him with no propitiation for their sins. I say unto again therefore, (Nahum 1:3) "Jehovah is slow to anger, and great in power, and will by no means clear the guilty" and let us not forget that (Romans 6:23) "the wages of sin is death"
One last note; truly, all those that take part in the second ressurection will only have their works to stand on and nothing else.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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botham
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Thank you Leo--Whatever God has in store for us will be wonderful beyond understanding because it will be at an entirely different level of life. We will have eternal, incorruptible bodies given to us by our Creator Jesus Christ. He said "I AM the resurrection and the life."
It seems to me that I never see you describing Jesus Christ as God. Am I mistaken? God bless, Botham
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Leo
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Most individuals who considerer themselves to be Christian have a better out look on life than those who do not attend Church. A Christian somehow knows from within that there is something better waiting for them in the future although they may not fully understand what it is. There is that ray of hope to and for them and their family. But could there be more to being a Christian and entering Gods Kingdom than one may realize.
The truth is there is much more waiting for those who are Christian and who will become a Christian than may have been revealed to them. Jesus Christ has revealed more on this subject..
Once an individual becomes converted and becomes a Christian, they began looking for the reward that has been promised to them by their Savior, Jesus Christ. That reward is to inherit Eternal Life and be in Heaven with God. My question to a one is, would you settle for Earth as the Heaven promised to you from God?
How many truly understand that when Jesus Christ returns He will set up His Fathers Kingdom here on this Earth and not in Heaven as has been taught by Ministers today.
The promise from God Almighty is that He will set up His Kingdom here on this Earth for 1000 years. Although this is not God’s Government and Kingdom at this time, it will be in a very few short years.
Notice Acts Ch 3: 20-21;
20; 21; “And that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you, before whom Heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things which God has spoken by the mouth of all Holy Prophets since the World began”.
Now Acts 15: 16; 17;
16; “After this I will return and will rebuild the Tabernacle of David which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, and will set it up; so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even the Gentiles who are called by my name says the Lord who does all things”.
Jesus Christ said that He Himself would return to this Earth to set up His Fathers Kingdom. What is wrong with that?
Jesus prayed, “Your Kingdom come” (Matthew 6:10 ![[Wink]](wink.gif) , and it was noted of Joseph of Arimathaea, whom himself was also waiting for the “Kingdom of God” (Luke 23:51 In the Acts of the Apostle’s it is said many times that they, “preached the things concerning the Kingdom of God”. (Acts 8:12, 12:8, 20:25, 28:23)
If God’s Kingdom is this important to our faith then surely it demands our attention if we are to be true disciples. Jesus said, “Seek first The Kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you”. (Matthew 6:33
Yes, we need to truly understand that the promise of Heaven is here on this Earth, where Jesus Christ will set up His Fathers Government, His World Ruling Government and those to whom are His chosen will help in running and ruling in this Government process.
Our Father in Heaven will not use individuals in helping rule and reign in His Kingdom who do not understand the principles of this soon coming Government of God.
In Matthew ch19: 28, 29, 30 we read-
28; “(Jesus speaking) I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of man sits on His Glorious Throne, you who have followed me will also sit on Twelve Thrones, judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel”.
29; “And everyone who has left his brothers and sisters or fathers or mothers or children of the field for My sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit Eternal Life”.
What Jesus is saying in verse 29 is that those who truly follow him will be ridiculed and disowned by family members and friends, that is the price of being a True Christians.
30; “But many who are the first will be the last and many who are the last will be the first”.
What this is saying is those who believe that they may be doing what God has commanded, may not be doing so and may very well end up being at the end of all things. Jesus Christ said that there would be those that would be the least in the Kingdom of God. They would be in the Kingdom of God but their reward would not be as they had expected it should be.
Notice Matthew ch 5; 19;
19; “Anyone who breaks one of the least of the Commandments and shall teach others to do the same will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven, but whosoever practices and teaches these Commandments will be called great in the Kingdom of God
God’s Kingdom with the added advantage of ‘authority’ will be established when Jesus Christ returns, “For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet”. 1Corinthians 15:25
Speaking of King Jesus, the prophet Jeremiah said: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of Righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the Earth. In His days Judah will be saved, now this is the name by which He will be called, the Lord of our righteousness”. (Jeremiah 23; 5-6)
The saints will help Him do this here on this Earth.
Now to revelation ch 20; 4, 5, 6,
4; “(N.I.V) I saw Thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to Judge. And I saw the Souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped The Beast (this world government authority) or his image and had not received His Mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years”.
5; “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the Thousand years were ended, this is the first resurrection”.
Those are the individuals that did not know Jesus Christ; they will be given a chance to accept Him at the end of the thousand years.
6; “Blessed and Holy are those who have part in the First Resurrection, The second death has no power over them, but they will be Priest of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a Thousand Years”.
When Jesus Christ does return He will establish His Father’s Government here on this Earth. Those who are His Chosen will help in Reigning and Ruling on this Earth for one thousand years. At the end of the thousand years, the rest of the dead, those to whom have not accepted Jesus Christ will be resurrected and will have the opportunity to also be His Son’s and Daughters. Then those who do not accept will be put in Hell Fire and will be burned up. They will die the second Death but will not burn for ever and ever
I cannot even start to explain what God has in store for the Saints after the Thousand Years for it is mind boggling and is something that includes the whole Universe.
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Trust in God and Him only:
Posts: 10 | From: Alto, Texas | Registered: Dec 2009
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botham
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Hello Leo--Your position is that there is no rapture as taught in many evangelical churches--my church also. You know, I don't think it's that important. Jesus Christ said that we will experience persecution, and we will. I suppose the question related to just what the triubulation is. According to the Word of Godl, it will be more horrendous than anything that has ever occurred. It might be even at a different level for all we know with spiritual forces unleashed and so forth. Scripture always has levels of meaning that are not readily apparent.
I tend to read the words of Jesus as you do. There will be one Great Day of the Lord when the very substance of all creation will change. Only those who are redeemed will join Jesus at His return.
But are you saying that we do not go to Heaven? Because if you do say that, I must disagree. We will spend eternity with our Creator, Jesus Christ, Alpha and Omega as joint heirs of the Kingdom of God. That's what the bible says.
And if God decides to rapture His Church before the great tribulation, so be it. My argument to the intransigent pre-tribulationists has always been that this very day, December 15,2009 many innocent children will die in a manner that could only be described as tribulation. No terrible details are needed for we all know the depravity of criminals and criminal governments who are guilty of these heinous crimes. So who am I to be spared tribulation when totally innocent children die every day.
We must be prepared to stand in our faith no matter what happens. And that day might come sooner than we think. My God give us courage in His Son Jesus Christ in all circumstances. God bless, Botham
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Leo
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Who said rapture? Did Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, John, and Jude say that the Church would be raptured out of the tribulation? They did not! Not one person has ever found a single scripture that says we will be raptured before the tribulation. When scripture conflicts with tradition, which should we believe?
Those who hold what is called the "Dispensational" interpretation of prophecy teach that the second coming of Christ will be in two stages: first, the Rapture, His coming for the saints, and then later His coming with the saints. The interval between these two events is generally regarded as seven years (Daniel's 70th week). During this time, according to this view, the Anti-Christ will make a seven year covenant with the Jews in which he will allow them to offer sacrifices in a rebuilt temple at Jerusalem. But then after three and a half years, he will break his covenant and place an Idol (the abomination of desolation) in the holy of holies of the temple. The Jews will refuse to bow, and a great persecution will result--the time of Jacob's trouble. Finally, at the close of the tribulation period (the end of the age), Christ will return in power and great glory, and then He shall send His angels to gather together His elect.
There is a big difference between the Rapture and the Resurrection. There are thousands of people who think that the Rapture idea--with driver less cars and crashing airplanes--is nothing but an emotion packed made up story with no Bible basis. But all Christians agree that there will be a resurrection in the future. The sensational display of the terror filled tribulation really has nothing to do with when the resurrection will take place. We are convinced that the Bible teaches that the resurrection will take place at the end of the tribulation, not before it.
There will not be a rapture before the tribulation; the resurrection will be at the end of the trouble. Let us reason together. There is no scripture anywhere that proves that the rapture is first. The note in Scofield's Bible is the biggest offender and has done the most to project the error.
Noah was not raptured out of the flood water; he went through the water. God said, "when thou passes through the water, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee" (Isa.43:2). Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego saw the fourth man and went through the fire. They were not raptured out. Daniel was not raptured out of the Lion's den; he went through it. God poured out His wrath in Egypt during the plagues but Israel did not suffer from them. Just as God protected His people from His wrath in Egypt, He will also protect His people from His wrath in the end time. God has established a pattern of providing supernatural protection for His people. Jerusalem, there is no question about the brutality and complete overthrow of that city in 70 AD. Why would He change His pattern for the last great tribulation? A mighty supernatural deliverance was wrought by God for protecting all His children in Egypt.
Matt 24:27-31
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
1Thes 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be hanged.
Jesus placed the sign of His second coming "immediately after the tribulation." The central event, "the Son of man coming in the clouds." The appearance of the Son of man is after that tribulation. Only the elect are gathered from the four winds; there being no mention of the wicked. The judgment scene one might expect is left out. The writer's interest is complete on the nearness of the reward of the righteous. You may be sure that He (the Lord) is at hand, at the very door.
The believers will be "caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." This verse explains where believers will meet the Lord. The place of meeting will be just above the earth--in the clouds, in the air. There is nothing in this verse to indicate that Christ will then turn around and take the church to heaven. Notice that believers will rise to "meet" the Lord. The word that is here translated "meet" is a word that was used in reference to the coming of a king or governor to visit a city. As he approached, the citizens would go out to meet him and then escort him on the last part of his journey into the city. We believe it has precisely that same meaning here. As the Lord descends from heaven, believers will rise "to meet the Lord in the air" (1Thes.4:16-17).
But do the scriptures teach that the rapture will be a secret, invisible, and quiet event? Let us look at the main verse on the rapture and see in 1Thes.4:16-17. To us, this verse indicates anything but a quite, secret rapture. Whether we take the "shout," the "voice," and the "trump" in literal sense or as having a figurative meaning; either way, this passage does not convey the idea of a secret and quite event! If anything, it would indicate that the coming of the Lord will be a loud, noisy, open, and wondrous event. Amid the sound of the Lord himself descending from heaven with a shout; the voice of the archangel, and the trumpet of God, there will be the sounds of praise and rejoicing from vast multitudes of saints as they are caught up to meet the Lord! Where is any secrecy here? This is not the description of a hidden and quiet event. Nevertheless, in spite of every indication to the contrary, this verse is constantly used as a text for sermons which describe the rapture as a secret, hidden, and quiet coming of Christ.
The scriptures do teach, of course, that Christ will return "as a thief in the night." This means that the time of His coming is unknown. It will come as a complete surprise to those who are not watching for His return. But the use of this term never indicates in any way that the event itself will be secret and quiet. The "thief" passages are found in the words of Jesus, Peter, and Paul, no one will know the time of His return.
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Trust in God and Him only:
Posts: 10 | From: Alto, Texas | Registered: Dec 2009
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botham
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Thank you Eden--I have been a Christian for many years but have not studied specific scriptures very much. Thank you for your good explanations. It is very helpful. God bless, Botham
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Eden
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hello, Stephen1, Jesus spoke the parable of the 10 virgins to the listening Jews in Judah.
Of those listening Jews, some would "go into the bridegroom's chamber" because they had their lamps lit by believing in Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit. These Jews are represented by the 5 wise virgins.
But the rest of those listening Jews would NOT "go into the bridegroom's chamber" because they had NOT believed in Jesus and thus their lamps were NOT lit by believing in Jesus and by receiving the Holy Spirit. Those Jews were represented ini the parable by the 5 foolish virgins.
Since what happened to Israel is also a figure of what will happen to Christians and the world in the last days, in our own time, the 5 wise virgins are those Gentiles and others who have believed in Jesus and have received the Holy Spirit.
And the 5 foolish virgins are those people in the world who have NOT believed in Jesus and have NOT received the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 25
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened to ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: [my comment, they did not believe in Jesus]
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. [my comment, they believed in Jesus]
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom comes; go out to meet him. [my comment, the Second Coming of Jesus]
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said to the wise, Give us of your oil, for our lamps are gone out. [my comment, they don't have the Holy Spirit]
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go rather to them who sell, and buy for yourselves. [my comment, the ones who sell are the preachers]
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say to you, I don't know you. [my commen, they never became Christians]
13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man comes. [my comment, become a Christian while you have time]
To me, that's the meaning of the parable of the 10 virgins, first for Israel-Judah, some of whom believed in Jesus [the wise virgins], and others who did not believe in Jesus [the foolish virgins].
And likewise it refers to the non-believers and believers among the Gentiles at the end of the age when the Son of man comes. If you believe in Jesus by then, you go in; if you don't believe in Jesus by then, the door is shut to you.
As it was in the days of Noah, so that it be in the days of the Son of man:
Genesis 7:16
And they who went in [to the ark], went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
love, Eden
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botham
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Thank you Stephen--reading the scriptures here makes it so abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is the eternal creation aspect of God. I love the scriptures where Jesus declares His true station as in "I am the resurrection and the life". Not a part of it, I AM it. His deity is indisputable from these scriptures. Also "before Abraham was I Am". I'm sure you know of references in the old testament that you could tell me. Then in the Revelation the Alpha and Omega references underline His authority and blesses our heart for the hope we have placed in our Worthy Lamb of God.
Lot was taken out before God's wrath on Sodom. Does this tell us that before the rapture, God will be demonstrating His authority and wrath, if you will, by destroying particular cities or geographical areas while the saints are still on earth and protected as Lot was. Or is Lot's escape a shadow truth, such as the shadow truth of animal sacrifice being the forerunner of the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, and therefore illustrative that God will rapture His Church before a total purge of evil from His creation.
As I said before, reading is a problem for me, and this interesting presentation of scripture is a blessing. I love to ponder a bit you see. God bless, Botham
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Stephen1
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Hi to all on this thread
I am a new poster and will be adding a series of suggestions for various topics on the forum primarily in this section "Bible Topics & Study"
Here would be some of my commentary on the Lord's coming "harpazo" action to immortalize the church of today [both those asleep and those living at the time]:
This is the beginning of the coming "day of the Lord" .... His hour [time] of trial and judgment against an intransigent an unbelieving world .... but just before He will keep His promise for those that believe in Him and are ready [many of professing christianity will not be ready and are not really saved]:
Matthew
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Revelation
1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
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Stephen
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botham
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Eden--thank you. I refer only to 'when' our sovereign God will, in the fullness of time and for His perfect purposes, end this dispensation of His creation and bring in an era where His justice permeates and changes all things. I agree that we must study His Word the bible, to know in our innermost heart that He loves us and wants us to know Him more and more. There is an importance to the chronology of events, as there is importance to all scripture. Everyone needs to know the gospel of love and the Word is the message that we have to a world steeped in the misery of sin--immorality and addictions of every kind. So I meant that the chronology could, if not studied in a context of the totality of the gospel of love, could be a distraction to God's principle reason for the Word, His desire to have an eternal relationship with His creation. Thanks, Botham
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Eden
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botham wrote quote:
Eden, is it very important to know whether our Lord Jesus Christ returns at this time or that?
Well, yes and no, botham. The Lord Jesus thought it important enough to speak forth a number of parables indicating that both the wicked and the justified would still be on earth together when He comes.
So when certain Bible teachers and students are saying that the justified will be taken out of the earth 7 years before the Lord Jesus comes, and then they add things like that the cars will be crashing on the highways as their Christian drivers are caught up from behind the wheel to heaven, then I think that opens Christianity up to certain ridicule from the as yet unsaved people.
So, botham, you said quote:
Eden, is it very important to know whether our Lord Jesus Christ returns at this time or that?
Ultimately, of course it makes no difference because none of the sheep that the Father has given to Jesus will be lost, and any sheep that we failed to saved, the Father will save.
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will who has sent Me, that of all whom He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
So from that point of view, it can be said that it does not really matter WHAT anyone teaches, but then there is also no need to really read the Bible AT ALL, is ther, since "it will all come to pass anyway as the Lord has it planned".
So I think it is important that the Lord Jesus thought that it was important enough to state in parables that at the harvest time, the good and the bad fish would still be in the same net. Why because the disciples must also have been asking this question when He was coming.
And then there are the scoffers, "Where IS this Lord of yours, huh?", and then we should have a Biblically correct answer to give them that matches what the Lord Jesus said in the Bible.
love, Eden
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botham
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Eden, is it very important to know whether our Lord Jesus Christ returns at this time or that? Any reader of the bible can see that Jesus is describing a world much like it is today with the immorality in every way and corruption in high political places due to worldly and spiritual principalities and powers. Jesus might return tomorrow or many years from now when God the Father decides that it is the fullness of time for His perfect and sovereign purpose. The church might be on earth until then or it might not be. Whatever the case, we Christians must occupy both the material and spiritual realms. The Cross of Calvary is what makes this possible, nothing else. We should just keep lookig for the return of Jesus and we shall not be deceived. We need to be vigilant not just for ourselves but for others who will turn to us when the inevitable collapse of the world system begins in earnest. Thanks for the scriptures. Our God is all powerful and glorious. Botham
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Eden
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Hello, becauseHElives, you wrote quote:
Hello Eden, what happen in Land of Goshen was not Yahweh's Wrath...
Yahweh's Wrath was what happen in Sodom and in the days of Noah...in both those instances Yahweh physically removed those He chose to keep safe before He loosed His Wrath!
Yes, but let us remember THAT BOTH THINGS HAPPENED ON THE SAME DAY!
On the same day that Yahweh saved Noah's family and saved Lot's family, on that same day the people around them perished:
Genesis 7
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark.
Genesis 19
22 Hurry [Lot], escape there [to Zoar]; for I cannot do anything until you are come there. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23 And the sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven.
So let me repeat what you wrote, becauseHElives: quote:
Yahweh's Wrath was what happen in Sodom and in the days of Noah...in both those instances Yahweh physically removed those He chose to keep safe before He loosed His Wrath!
Yes, but let us remember THAT BOTH THINGS HAPPENED ON THE SAME DAY!
Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 13
27 So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? From where then has it tares?
28 And he said to them, An enemy has done this. Then the servants said to him, Will you then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, No; lest while you gather up the tares, you also root up the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind.
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
When the Lord comes in His glory, the Lord sends His angels to separate the just from the wicked, and note, the wicked and the just are still together until the very end.
That is the teaching of the Bible, just as in the land of Goshen, the Israelites were still untouched in the land of Goshen while the Egyptians were being devastated:
Exodus 8:22
And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which My people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; so that you may know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth.
Exodus 11:7
But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that you may know how that the LORD does put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
Today, the Egyptians represent the world, and the Israelites in Goshen represent the Christians in the world. We are today grafted into Israel:
Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches [of original Israel] be broken off, and you [Gentile believers], being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
As it was in Goshen, so shall it be in the end of the world: that the world may know that the LORD does put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel, hallelujah.
It will all happen on the same day, just as with Noah and with Lot.
Luke 17:26
And as it was in the days of Noah, so also shall it be in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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Eden I do pray you are correct!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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becauseHElives wrote quote:
the way things are progressing in America within the next 3 or 4 years Christians will be in Concentrations Camps
Nonsense. In 3 or 4 years you and I will still be on this Christian Bible Forum.
love, Eden
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botham
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becauseHeLives--I hope you know I am not disputing your scriptural references. When all is said and done, scriptures trump any of my opinions. I have difficulty concentrating and therefore reading, so I appreciate those who can organize their beliefs supported by scripture. Thanks for the link--a little out there, but very interesting. Believers will most definitley be persecuted on a worldwide basis at some point not too long from now. The exponential growth of technology will facilitate this. But God is in control and He will stay in control. Glory to the Lamb, slain for us. God bless, Botham
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becauseHElives
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botham as I said before....I do understand where you are coming from...
the way things are progressing in America within the next 3 o 4 years Christians will be in Concentrations Camps
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/con_camps.htm
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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botham
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Thanks to everyone for comments and scriptural references. Does anyone think that the passover figures in the discussion about God's grace and protection when He decides to show His sovereign authority. As Eden said, God can destroy evil with His wrath and keep the saints safe. I'm still uncertain about the time of the rapture, not if it will happen though. At some time God will, according to scripture that cannot lie, translate us by His Word to eternal life, much as He spoke everything we know about materially and everything we know about spiritually through scripture into existence. God will never ask of believers that which can be done without Him. If we are to stay here during terrible times until Chist calls us up, then He will supply the power to the saints to endure for His purposes.
It could also be that when God's wrath is visited upon a person, that their ultimate destination is not heaven. Therefore the saints will definitely avoid God's wrath in that sense. But to expect to be spared torture or violent death, which I pray does not happen to anyone of course, is not a good argument for pretribulation. Just think about children all over the world who will die this very day because of evil. They will die in the most gruesome manner and they are most innocent in the eyes of God. They have not avoided the tribulation. They are with God as we know, but the mystery of their deaths, beyond the fact that sin and evil befell them on this earth, is known to God alone. The stains of their blood will require a cleansing and those who killed these innocents will pay the last tittle. But I am grateful for the many reminders of scripture that admonishes to keep looking for the coming of our Saviour and if I am to be truthful, I hope for a pretribulation rapture not so much for myself, although it would be preferable, but for my family, fellow believers and innocents of the world. Thanks and God bless, Botham.
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becauseHElives
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Hello Eden, what happen in Land of Goshen was not Yahweh's Wrath...
Yahweh's Wrath was what happen in Sodom and in the days of Noah...in both those instances Yahweh physically removed those He chose to keep safe before He loosed His Wrath!
Those 2 examples are also the example Yahshua used when referring to the end....as it was in the days of Noah and as it was in the days of Lot....
Watching for Yahshua's Return is the only wise choice one can make....
not to watch is disastrous.....
If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Revelation 3:3
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21:36
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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hello, Found in Him, greetings in this holiday season, you wrote quote:
Very well presented BecauseHeLives! I place the heart of The Lord Jesus Christ and His word to return for us (His Church) over mans opinion any day in that He has not appointed The Church unto wrath.
It is true that God has not appointed His Church unto wrath, but it is not necessary for the LORD to take the Church OUT of the earth in order for the LORD to keep the Church from wrath.
God is WELL ABLE to keep the Church from wrath while the Church is STILL ON THE EARTH. God already showed us how He did it with the Israelites in the land of Goshen:
Exodus 8:22
But I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which My people dwell, so that no swarms of flies shall be there; so that you may know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth.
Exodus 9:26
For only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was there no hail.
And also this from Isaiah:
Isaiah 54:14
In righteousness shall you be established: you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear, and from terror; for it shall not come near you.
Isaiah 43:2
When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you: when you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon you.
THAT is why the LORD WILL KEEP THE CHURCH ON EARTH until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus, to be a WITNESS in the earth:
Exodus 8:22
But I will sever in that day the land of Goshen in which My people dwell, so that no swarms of flies shall be there; so that you may know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth.
So to repeat what Found in Him wrote: quote:
... He has not appointed The Church unto wrath.
Exactly. God has not appointed the Church unto wrath but God WILl KEEP the Church on earth, except that the wrath WILL NOT COME UPON THE CHURCH, does as the wrath did NOT COME ON THE ISREALITES IN THE LAND OF GOSHEN, WHO WERE OUR FIGURE and SHADOW of what would happen to us in the end time.
God will keep us here to show the world that He makes a difference between the profane and the holy.
And then, at the Second Coming of Jesus, those who sleep in Christ will rise first and we who are still alive and remain on the earth at His Second Coming will be raptured from the earth to be with Jesus in the air.
And then we all return to the earth in our glorified bodies as part of the "army of the Lord" which takes over the earth in one day known as "the day of the LORD" in the Bible.
love, Eden
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botham
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Thank you, Because He Lives, again for your research and scholarship.It does indeed sound like the tribulation is a singularly horrific period of time, tantamount to God visiting His wrath either directly or by withdrawing the protective effect of the Holy Spirit. I have always thought it best to prepare to die in Christ if necessary as so many faithful and courageous saints have done in the past. But the wrath desribed in the scriptures that you give us does seem to be upon a world where grace is extracted. I know that no matter what, God will never forget anyone who has received the Blood sacrifice of His Son for redemption. And if God remembers you, He can express you again at a higher level, incorruptible to live with Him forever. This mortal flesh is but a seed that awaits the Master's tender touch. Imagine the miracle of changing in the twinkling of any eye from mortal to immortal. Jesus did not say He was involved in resurrection, He said He was the resurrection. Always a step up from our limited vocabulary and thinking to the unimaginable vistas of eternity. Thank you for the scriptures in such meaningful order. I hope many people read them to boost their faith. God bless, Botham
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Found in Him
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Very well presented BecauseHeLives! I place the heart of The Lord Jesus Christ and His word to return for us (His Church) over mans opinion any day in that He has not appointed The Church unto wrath.
The word of God states that there will be trouble unlike anything ever known before during the great tribulation...that trouble is for the unbeliever! God has foretold in His word those that will minister to the remainder of mankind that will still be upon the Earth after the "catching away" of the saints...and it is not the church. We are to preach the Gospel now while the hour of Grace is still upon the Earth...I believe that God knows that it will take special witnesses to minister during such a devastating time and has made those provisions.
The word also makes it clear that The Church returns with The Lord Jesus Christ when His feet touch the Earth again and every eye will see Him at that time...not before.
Thank God for His word! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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Hi, becauseHElives, greetings in this superextra holiday season, you wrote quote:
Hello Eden,did you watch the videos?
No. I'm too busy with other projects to watch videos. I only commented on your 7-days advance notice.
Actually God gave man two advance notices; God had also given man 120 years' advance notice before the 7-day notice:
Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a 120 years.
They got some good advance notice in those days, didn't they? LOL
love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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botham I do understand where you are coming from...
i am not making little of the terrible persecution martyrs have suffered ever since the church came into existence. The Lord promised believers who would follow His teaching trials,persecution and tribulation....
but The Wrath of Yahweh is a different matter....
The Three Wraths of the Tribulation Period:
Will the Church survive them?
Bible prophecy teaches us there are going to be three forms of supernatural wrath that will come upon the earth during the Tribulation Period, each of which will wreak havoc on the earth and its occupants. First, we'll discuss the three wraths. After that, we'll examine how these three wraths will impact the Church during the Tribulation Period.
Wrath #1 - The wrath of The Lamb
During the first half of the Tribulation Period, when the Lord opens the sixth seal, the sixth of twenty-one judgments that will befall mankind during the seven-year Tribulation Period, prophecy teaches us the inhabitants of planet earth are going to cry out to the mountains and rocks to fall upon them. Why? Because they'll be so frightened of the wrath of the Lamb - our Savior Jesus Christ.
Revelation 6:15-17: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Wrath #2 - The wrath of Satan
Satan, assuming the Tribulation Period hasn't begun when you read this, is currently the prince of the power of the air and has limited access to the throne of God, a fact many Christians don't realize is true. In the aftermath of the Rapture, near the midpoint of the seven-year Tribulation Period, Satan is going to be completely stripped of his access to the throne of God where he currently acts as an accuser of the brethren and be cast to the earth itself! When this happens, heaven and all those in it are going to rejoice, but Satan is going to be exceedingly wrathful because he will know his time is short!
Satan's limited access to God's throne, as recorded in Job's day
Job 1:6-7: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 2:1-2: Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Satan cast out into the earth at or near the Tribulation Period's midpoint
Revelation 12:7-12: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Wrath #3 - The wrath of the Father
The final wrath that will fall on mankind and the earth is God the Father's wrath.
Revelation 15:7: And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Revelation 16:1: And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
How utterly frightening!
Whose time of trouble is the Tribulation Period?
Jeremiah 30:7 identifies the Tribulation Period as the time of Jacob's trouble - a reference to Israel.
Luke 21:23 points to the Tribulation Period being a time of wrath upon "this people" - another reference to Israel and the Jewish people.
Daniel 9:24 records God decreed 70 weeks (70 seven-year periods) against the children of Israel specifically. Sixty-nine of those weeks (69 periods of 7 years) are completed, as seen in Daniel 9:25-26, indicating the nation of Israel, "thy people" as seen in Daniel 9:24, has one more week (a seven-year period) to endure - the week (seven-year period) of the Tribulation Period. This again points to Israel and the Jewish people being the primary focus of the Tribulation Period.
When Christ returns at Armageddon,
will He be coming to avenge a victimized Church?
Joel 3:2: I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
Zechariah 14:2-3: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Where is the Church during the Tribulation Period?
Because the Church, comprised of believers who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, isn't appointed to wrath, the Church will be in heaven as a result of the Rapture!
1st Thessalonians 1:10: And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1st Thessalonians 5:9: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 5:9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Yes, the Rapture is a Pre-Tribulational event!
In Revelation, chapters 1-3, the word 'church' or 'churches' is used 19 times. After John hears the words 'come up hither' as recorded in Revelation 4:1, the Church isn't seen as a body again until it is seen in heaven at its wedding to Christ and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
Revelation 19:7-8: Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
If the saints are seen in heaven marrying Christ while arrayed in white linen, it's a logical conclusion the Church has made it to heaven to get married, right?
Revelation 19:9: And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
The parable of the ten virgins:
Are you ready for the Pre-Trib Rapture?
Matthew 25:1-13: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
As we see in the parable of the ten virgins, some will be waiting for the bridegroom's invitation to go to the marriage and will head out to meet him at midnight, even though they were fast asleep at the time of his coming. A key thing to note in the parable concerning the sleep of those who rise up to meet the bridegroom when he comes is their sleep is one of peace rather than a lack of preparedness! We know this to be true because those who had prepared for his coming are seen rising out of their peaceful sleep, trimming their well-equipped lamps, and heading off to the marriage upon hearing the bridegroom's midnight call. In the aftermath of their departure to the wedding, those left behind are seen scrambling to try and go, but the moment has passed and the door to the marriage has been slammed shut.
Those of us who call ourselves Christians need to live our lives in a state of preparedness for the return of Jesus Christ to take place - even if His return comes at an hour when we least expect Him to arrive. This fact is made abundantly clear in Scripture to the extent no one should be able to question it.
No interpretation of the Rapture event other than a Pre-Tribulational Rapture interpretation withstands the test of imminence when scrutinized! The first four judgments of the Tribulation Period will see one quarter of the world's population die yet the Church, assuming for a moment it would be here, wouldn't be expecting the return of Jesus Christ to take place? That's just silly! It isn't even the least bit logical, is it?
We're not told to look for the coming of the Antichrist or the Tribulation Period, but to look for the return of Jesus Christ at an hour when life will be proceeding as normal, as opposed to the hell-like environment of the Tribulation Period.
Matthew 24:37-38: But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luke 17:28-30: Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Pray ye be found worthy to escape!
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Trust in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture!
Titus 2:13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Revelation 3:10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Hold onto your crown!
Revelation 3:11: Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
2nd Timothy 4:8: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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botham
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I'm very thankful and blessed to read the well researched commentery about our Lord's soon return. Paul seems to say that there will be a rapture or taking away of the church before some horrible events. What I am unclear about pertains to the nature of the event(s). If the rapture precedes a number of years wherein the antichrist gains power over the entire planet, then I am not sure God the Creator will remove the Church. As I have said before, there are legions of people who have been martyred in a fashion that could only be described as tribulation. For instance we can imagine a family being brutally murdered for their refusal to renounce their Christian faith. Of course I am leaving out terrible details. So to believe that God will remove all believers from the earth during a tribulation period might be in question. However, if there is to be a Great Day of the Lord where there is destruction as in Sodom, then certainly God will remove the Church first. God bless, Botham
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becauseHElives
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Hello Eden,did you watch the videos ?
all I can say is Yahshua says for us to watch for His return.... if we are His, we are not children of darkness. we are children of the light, if we are part of the Bride....
Amos 3:7, "Surely the Lord God will do nothing without first revealing His secret to His servants the prophets." God's pattern of dealing with His people has always included sending prophets. Amos states emphatically, "God does nothing without a prophetic forerunner" as disclosed by the most rudimentary study of scriptural history.
Dan 9:24-26
This is probably one of the more powerful witnesses that Jesus Christ was in fact The Messiah. This prophesies the exact year of Jesus Christ's crucifixion (who would not even be born for another four hundred and some odd years from the time of this writing).
Below, each week is seven years. In verse 25 you have seven weeks [seven sevens = 49 years] and three score and two weeks [62 weeks is 62 sevens = 434 years].
So you have: "that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" till : "shall Messiah be cut off" , is 69 weeks [69 sevens] = 483 years. The command to restore the Temple was given in 454 B.C. [Neh 2:1 &2:18].
Therefore, from the command to restore the Temple in 454 B.C. to the crucifixion of the Messiah in A.D. 29 you have exactly 483 years as prophesied. Below is that prophecy:
Dan 9:24-26
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (KJV)
“THE DAYS OF LOT”
GEN 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
I. ABRAHAM’S INTERCESSION FOR THE CITY OF SODOM.
A. The premise of the intercession, it would not be right to punish or judge the righteous with the wicked. Abraham asked: “Will you destroy the righteous with the wicked?” He knew his nephew Lot lived in the city of Sodom.
B. The proposition, “What if there are 50 righteous in the city? It should be far from you to treat the righteous as the wicked. Should not the Judge of all of the earth do that which is right?”
1. The Lord responded that if 50 righteous could be found, the city would be spared for the sake of the 50 righteous.
2. Abraham began to bargain, how about 45, 40, 30, 20, do I hear 10? The Lord finally declared for 10 righteous men the city would be spared.
C. The arrival of the angels at the city of Sodom in the evening, Lot was sitting in the gate of the city and offered them lodging in his home. They declined the invitation at first, but Lot insisted, and prepared them a feast. But before they could bed down, the men of the city of Sodom had circled the house of Lot, young and old alike all of the men of the city. They demanded that Lot send the men out that they might rape them. Lot went out and tried to plead with the men to not engage in this wickedness, that these men were his guests. The men of the city began to turn against Lot for daring to challenge their chosen lifestyle, calling it wicked. And they approached the door to break it down. The angels drew Lot back into the house and blinded the men, so that they could not find the door. They told Lot that if there were any other of his family there to get them out, because they were going to destroy the city. Lot went to his son’s-in-law and tried to warn them of the pending judgment, but they scoffed at the idea of God bringing judgment, and would not listen. In the morning the angels sought to hurry Lot out of the city, they said, to flee for his life, for they could not do their job of judgment until he was safely removed.
II. JESUS IN TALKING OF SIGNS OF HIS COMING FOR THE CHURCH SAID,
LUK 17:24 For as the lightning, streaks across the sky from one end of heaven to the other, so shall it be when I come in that day.
LUK 17:25 But first I must suffer many things, and be rejected by this generation.
LUK 17:26 As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be in the days when I come.
LUK 17:27 For they were eating and drinking, marrying wives, and divorcing them, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
LUK 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they ate, and drank they bought, and sold, planted and built;
LUK 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
LUK 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
A. Lets review the days of Lot. They were engaged in business as usual.
1. There was a general acceptance of the homosexual life style.
a. The Vermont Supreme court has ruled that homosexual couples are entitled to the same benefits as heterosexual couples.
b. Many of the major corporations are offering family benefits to same sex partners.
2. The New Jersey supreme court ruled that the Boy Scouts must accept homosexuals as scout leaders. The ruling declared that the Boy Scouts are a place of public accommodation, it cannot deny any person the advantages, facilities or privileges on the basis of sexual orientation.
a. The majority of the scout troops are sponsored by churches, does this mean that churches will also come under the law of discrimination?
b. Churches are also a place of public accommodation, does this mean that we would be forced to hire homosexuals on staff?
c. The irony of all of this is in the fact that as a church if we have a leader that we know has a history of molesting children, and we allow him to continue as an employee, should he molest one of the boys say on an outing, we would be open for a law suit. Talk about a catch 22.
2. In the days of Lot the homosexuals had come out of the closet, and had become aggressive in the pursuit of their life styles.
a. We see them openly in the streets trying to forcibly rape the angels who were guests of Lot.
b. They are unashamed of their sexual perversion, and were ready to aggressively attack Lot, for trying to stop them.
3. How many of you have heard of the Jesse Dirkhising case?
a. Here is what happened, in September Joshua Brown repeatedly raped this 13 year old boy while his gay lover Davis Carpenter Jr. watched. After brutalizing this young teenager for several hours Brown decided to take a lunch break, at which time he stuffed the boy’s underwear in his mouth to gag him, he then sealed his mouth with duct tape. Later Carpenter noticed that Jesse was not breathing and called 911. When the police arrived they discovered that the young boy had been drugged and that he died of positional asphyxia.
b. Why has the media been so silent concerning this brutal murder? Had the boy been gay and the attackers heterosexual, you would still be seeing headlines as the news media followed this case, expressing their outrage. You would have heard Clinton calling for stiffer sentences for hate crimes, and how we as Americans cannot tolerate this kind of brutality.
c. Janet Reno would surely add her voice, and promise that the full powers of her office would be brought to bear to see that justice would be done and these men punished to the full extent of the law.
d. Had the murderers been two pastors, you would have been as familiar with the name of Jesse Dirkhising as you are with Matthew Shepard. The media pretends to be fair in it’s reporting of the news, but the news blackout on this case is just another sign of their total hypocrisy.
4. I am as interested in the salvation of a homosexual as I am of anybody else. Jesus loves them and died for them. What I object to is their attempt to force me to accept their life style as anything other than sinful in the sight of God.
III. INTERESTING THINGS TO NOTE IN THE STORY OF LOT.
A. Peter in his epistle gives us a commentary on the story.
2PE 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2PE 2:6 And turned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes as He brought His judgment upon them for their sin, and made them an an example unto those that chose to live ungodly lives.
2PE 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy life styles of the wicked:
2PE 2:8 For that righteous man was vexed day after day when he heard and saw their evil deeds and their wickedness.
2PE 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
B. As we look at the wickedness in our nation today, we realize that we have become as Sodom and Gomorrah, the time has again come for God’s judgment to fall because of the wickedness.
a. Throughout the whole Bible God tells us of the great day of judgment and God’s wrath that is coming on the earth.
b. The question has often been debated, as to whether or not the church will be here to face the wrath of God in His judgment of this sinful world.
c. The premise of Abraham still stands, “Would God destroy the the righteous with the wicked? Should not the judge of the earth be fair?” As long as there are righteous men on the earth the hand of God’s judgment will be stayed, but the judgment must come, so God will one day very soon, remove the righteous out of the earth in an event known as the rapture of the church, then the wrath of God will be revealed from heaven against all the unrighteousness and ungodliness of men who have held the truth of God in unrighteousness.
d. I expect that the anti-christian sentiment will continue to grow here in the U.S. and possible persecution as men seek to silent our voices.
e. The media will seek to portray us as hate mongers, and we will be accused as being intolerant, but all of the laws of men cannot erase the laws of God. Sin is sin and the Bible warns us that the wicked will be turned into hell, and all nations that forget God.
f. Our ministry is not motivated by hate, but by love. If I hated them I would keep silent, and gloat over the fact that they are going to spend eternity in hell. It is the love of Christ that constrains me to warn them, even though they turn their wrath of me for doing so.
g. The day I cease warning men of the consequences of sin, I am no longer fit to stand in a pulpit.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Hi, becauseHElives, you or your article wrote quote:
Then Jesus switched to the future tense to tell us how it would be when he returned. It would be as in the days of Noah when the saved knew the day the flood would come: “For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; ...
True, the saved ended up knowing the date, but the saved only had 7 days advance notice. That is not much.
And yes, I don't doubt that the resurrected Son of God Jesus now knows the hour also, but I don't think it has been revealed to anyone yet. What, will we also get 7 days advance notice?
love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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Hello botham,
quote:
Do you have a scriptural based opinion as to why the Church will avoid the tribulation.
"If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."Rev. 3:3
Nowhere in scripture will you find "no one will know the day and hour of the Lord's return." In fact, we are told “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” 1Thes. 5:4 So, why do so many believe no one will know the day and hour?
The problem comes from the misreading of scripture. What Jesus taught of the subject is:
“But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord does come.”Matt 24:36-42
Jesus began speaking in the present tense about knowing both the day and the hour, telling us that at the time He was speaking no one, but the father, knew the day and hour. Jesus, Himself, didn’t know as He was speaking, but did know after the resurrection when He said: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”Matt 28:18
Then Jesus switched to the future tense to tell us how it would be when he returned. It would be as in the days of Noah when the saved knew the day the flood would come: “For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.” Gen 7:4-5
When the flood came, the saved were safely aboard the ark, but it came upon the lost unexpectedly like a thief in the night. The lost were doing every day things as usual expecting nothing until the flood came and carried the ark away.
After telling us we would know the day, Jesus addressed knowing the hour. Switching back to the present tense to tell us the hour of His coming wasn’t known as He was speaking, and He told us to watch. Implicit in the command to watch is to know the hour of His coming, for we will see His coming whether watching or not: “he comes with clouds; and every eye shall see him.”Rev. 1:7 which He confirms elsewhere: “If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.” Rev 3:3
1 Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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